Some extended commentary from Frederick Dale Bruner's commentary _Matthew, Volume II, The Churchbook_ (Word Publishing, 1990, pp. 1092-3). *Though they also doubted . . . The most frequently selected translation is the limiting equivalent of “though some had their doubts” . . . Yet not even this minimal translation (of some doubting) has pleased a number of interpreters. For on its face the text says that some or all of the eleven who worshiped also doubted. How can that be?* *First, how can people worship someone they doubt? And second, how could the eleven disciples themselves, having just seen the risen Jesus, doubt at all? Consequently, some interpreters have suggested, first, that the aorist edistasan should be rendered pluperfect to read “though they had doubted,” i.e., they had doubted in the past but not now . . . Second, persons other than these venerable disciples must have been the ones who doubted; thus “some” disciples doubted, but not the eleven. . . .* *Bonnard, 418, speaks for the contemporary consensus when he suggests we leave the verbs in their obvious sense: even the worship of the first eleven was mixed with some doubt (cf. the ambiguity of OT theophanies, too: Gen 18.12; Jdg 6.11-24; 13.6ff). Leo put one purpose of the eleven’s doubt quite evangelically: “They doubted that we might not doubt” (in Beng., 1.311). We can accept this, not in the sense that we do not doubt-for we do-but in the sense that their doubt helps us believe that this encounter was honestly reported, thus decreasing reasons for doubt.* *Theologically and spiritually, the report that the disciples who worshiped Jesus also doubted is evangelical and profound. By reporting worship and doubt in the same sentence, Matthew tells his church that the structure of Christian faith is bipolar: disciples live their lives between worship and doubt . . . Just as Jesus in the wilderness lived between the two “bys” of the Holy Spirit and the Unholy Spirit (4.1), so Christians live their discipleship between the spirit of worship and the spirit of doubt. Christians are both believers and doubters, adoring and wondering, trusting and questioning.* *All disciples experience this bipolarity, and it is not healthy to deny it. The good news of the Great Commission is that Jesus addresses and uses exactly such worshiping-doubting disciples. When Jesus does not correct, exorcise, or otherwise attack this doubt, but gives the Great Commission instead, he teaches disciples that they win their war with doubt by obedience to his mission command. Obedience to the will of God is the way to the knowledge of God.*

@ourendtimewalk

23 күн бұрын

Hello, if I may involve myself in this fascinating discussion... :) As I said in another comment here, the Byzantine majority text contains the word "oi" (meaning "some") in Mat 28:18. So, to me, there is no question in my mind, that only SOME disciples doubted when Jesus arrived at the mountain, and also that NOT ALL disciples doubted... the clear presence of "oi" clarifies this, on a logical standpoint. Moreover, it is not specified the disciples doubted ABOUT WHAT. They could have doubted that Jesus was really risen, and therefore, that the person in front of them was not really Jesus (someone looking very close). Remember, on the road to Emmaus, the eyes of 2 disciples were kept from recognizing Jesus (Luke 24:16). And so, when he arrived at the mountain in Mat 28:18, maybe some disciples did not recognize him right away... consequently, doubted momentarily... Another hypothesys: The disciples who doubted, MIGHT have doubted that Jesus really died on the cross... a kind of hoax... (Muslims claim a thing of this sort, and Hindus too). Therefore, doubting the resurrection. In a scenario where his death would have been a hoax, doubting the resurrection is the normal reaction... also, it is not mentionned how long, those who doubted, doubted about the thing they doubted... :) I do not agree that we can say that "the structure of christian faith is bipolar: disciples live their lives between worship and doubt". I think this statement applies to most christians, indeed, but not all. The level of revelation varies, from christian to christian. Some people, even in the 21st century, have experienced supernatural events, or been given immense faith boosting by God. Those people, in my opinion, face more difficult testing of their faith, but have been unmovable in their faith (like Paul, or Enoch, or Abraham, or Daniel)... Such heroes of the faith still exist today... One example that comes to mind is the true story reported by the christian song "It is well with my soul". Reading about that story is jaw-droping, and it happened, if I am correct, in the 1800s. ciao!! Phil

wow your interests spoke to me - Bibles, books, junk drawer items...that's poetry in motion. Awesome work.

@joest.eggbenedictus1896

Ай бұрын

Hey, thanks!! That's a high compliment!

It’s not only more accurate to the original text but more accurate to life. No one has perfect belief. If we needed perfect belief we’d all be in trouble. We worship even in the midst of our imperfectness. In the midst of our doubts we say: Lord I believe, help my unbelief!

@joest.eggbenedictus1896

2 ай бұрын

That's a good word!

Nice catch! This is another interesting translation choice by the NRSVue's committee.

I would translate: "and they worshipped him, those who had doubted", implying that they had once doubted but now believed.

@joest.eggbenedictus1896

2 ай бұрын

According to Moreno's work (see his pinned comment), that has been proposed, but it changes the tense and would ultimately be misleading.

@joestfrancois

2 ай бұрын

Hmm, yeah, change it so you like it better. Great idea.

Interesting on Mt. 28. You sent me down a rabbit hole this morning! I dug through several of my "heavy duty" study Bibles of various backgrounds and only saw it mentioned in the NET Full Notes edition. It has a note there which gives the reasoning for "they doubted", though it goes with the more typical "some" in the actual translation. The ESV SB argues for there being more than the 11 there, and that it was the others who doubted; the New Interpreters commentary offers this possibility as well, as well as "they doubted" which it says the NAB has. It has some excellent notes here on doubt regardless of who or how many are in view here. I also liked this note from the Reformation Study Bible: "The initial reaction of disbelief on the part of those who will become bold eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection shows that the proofs he offers are complete convincing (Acts 1:3), overwhelming their every misgiving." That holds up even if it was all who doubted. It boggles my mind that they didn't do better with the physical aspects of this Bible. They know their primary competition for this is the NOAB. The NOAB has been printed by Royal Jongbloed for the last two editions and they do a fantastic job, I hope it continues for the next edition.

@joest.eggbenedictus1896

2 ай бұрын

That is interesting. Thank you for doing all of that research and work, and for sharing it with us. You definitely spend more time with that than I did. Which is great!!

@ThriftStoreBibles

2 ай бұрын

@@joest.eggbenedictus1896 This popped up while I had a little quiet time in the morning so perfect timing!

@MAMoreno

2 ай бұрын

A pair of additional notes from other sources: *Greek grammar is not decisive as to the identity of those who doubted, but there is no hint that the doubters were persons other than from the eleven. Luke reports that the apostles discredited the report of the women, looking upon it as “an idle tale” (24.12). He reports that even when Jesus appeared among the eleven there were “questionings” in their hearts and “they still disbelieved for joy” (24.38, 41). John tells of the doubting of Thomas, who declared that he would not believe unless he could see the nail prints and the wound in Jesus’ side (20.24 f.). The transparent honesty of the Gospels is reflected in these forthright confessions of the doubts of the apostles, and the case for the fact of the resurrection and subsequent appearances is thereby strengthened. The disciples had not expected to see Jesus again, and both the reports of his appearances and his actual presence among them were almost too good to be true.* - Frank Stagg, Broadman Bible Commentary Vol. 8: Matthew-Mark (1969) *Could also be translated “they worshiped, but they doubted.” For such an unprecedented event as a resurrection, it is easy to envision any or all of the disciples both acclaiming Jesus’ deity and being very perplexed as to what exactly had happened and wondering if all this was real.* - Craig L. Blomberg, NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible (2019) Additionally, a few translations agree with the NRSVue, most notably the NABRE.

@joest.eggbenedictus1896

2 ай бұрын

@@MAMoreno Wow thank you for that! You should copy and post this as its own comment in addition to this thread so that more will see it!

@ThriftStoreBibles

2 ай бұрын

@@MAMoreno Thanks for sharing. How do you like the Biblical Theology SB? I've thought about buying one mainly for the notes.

Hello again, good day to you, In the Byzantine majority text, the word "oi" is present, meaning "some" Mat 28:17 Καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ· οἱ δὲ ἐδίστασαν.