Abraham Lincoln: "Give me two years to cut a mortise, and I would spend the first 18 months ordering and waiting for my Lie Nielsen chisel to arrive."

If I'd seen this before I bought my Narex I'd probably have taken your good advice. But two major factors: I got four Narex for under 70 sterling. All LN stuff is very expensive here inUK. Also, to be fair, I don't find them clumsy (I've got quite big hands.) And though they have the issues you describe, it only took me ten minutes to flatten the back of the 8mm on my inexpensive 400/1000 diamond stone. So overall I'm well pleased. Regarding "steering" I find what helps me most is to start EVERY chop with a tap not a wallop. That engages the blade in the wood but gives me the chance to review and correct if needed. I find I can then wallop away without too much need for steering. Bests.

The right chisel for any job is the sharp one. A cheap tool with a fine edge beats an expensive dull tool every time. Learn to sharpen the tools you have. If you can someday afford these nice tools, great! But you will be fine if you learn to sharpen what you have.

I see both video Narex\Woodriver and Narex\Lie Nilsen. There was a lot of expression and irritation about Narex, nitpicks. But there are no complaints about the work. I will buy Narex, is logical.

9:18 - Perhaps the reason Cosman has not experienced his chisels binding in a mortise is that he only chops shallow / furniture-size mortises. If you do bigger stuff like doors / gates or even timber framing the chisel definitely can get stuck and the tapered sides helps remedy that. As for the tapered sides allowing for sideways skewing / twisting : never had a problem with that -- I have a hand to steer the chisel where I want it.

Admittedly LN is better but the cost is too prohibitive in Australia. I own a set of Narex Mortice and they serve me very well and never miss a beat. Very quick to be honed sharp during the job.

Thank you, Rob! I bought the Narex bench chisels when Lee Valley first started to carry them. The backs were flat and I really like them. A year later I bought a Narex mortise chisel and just assumed that the back didn't need to be flat as it's more of a brute force chisel. I've never been able to chop a straight and square mortise. I always assumed it was my technique. I can can cut beautiful dovetails (thank you, BTW, you didn't even know that you taught me), and I've learned a ton of other similar skills via KZread, but always struggled with mortises. I just checked my Narex with a square: the profile is parallelogram shaped. Time to buy a better tool! Thanks for all you've taught me!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Glad to help

Right the handle of the Lie Nielsen fall of regulary and it broke once bij tilting the chisel. Now I have the Veritas mortise chisel, very satisfied with the Veritas. You should do a comparison between Veritas and Lie Nielsen.

My most beloved woodworking tools are my 3 Lie Nielsen bevel edge chisels, the only "major flaw" is that they are so nice that I don't want to use them anymore.

I've never had any issues with my Narex chisels, it just boils down to personal preference in my opinion. Cheers :)

@alanj822

3 жыл бұрын

I have a set of 25 Narex Chisels. Not one face on any of them was flat.

@rigsby7255

2 жыл бұрын

@Salko Safic frankly your comment isn’t either

Its a Rob video. Only the most expensive tool can possibly do the job.

A good education lesson. I actually have them both :). I use the Narex to "Chop" down material if I have a larger mortise and need to dig in hard, and the LN when I do much more fine work. Also, as you mention, if one isn't keen on spending much money or just a hobby, you can get a full set of mortise from Narex with three sizes with still less than the LN cost.

It would be interesting to see a comparison of similarly priced tools, like Lie Nelson vs Veritas.

I wonder in what other review would you find " and the winner is the one where the handle falls off"

@8Greendog

2 жыл бұрын

This is a pretentious video. I didn't know that Cosman was pretentious and biased, but now I know.

@Jeremy_810

2 жыл бұрын

@@8Greendog he's not pretentious. His time is just more valuable than $5 to $10/hr... because you're going to be making up that little bit of money saved in time spent getting the tool to function to a standard that still doesn't reach the standard of the higher end tool. These aren't disposable electronics. They're lifetime hand tools. Eat one Hot Pocket for lunch instead of 2. In a few weeks, you'll have paid for a Lie Nielson.

In the early 1980's, there was an article in Fine Woodworking Magazine on mortising chisels. One of the things that came out of it was a disagreement among the experts on the shape of a mortising chisel's blade section. One school said that parallel sides were essential, while the other group said that angled sides were. The folks who preferred angled sides said that if a mortice is getting off track to one side, you can steer it back to straight only if the chisel has angled sides. I'm not sure that I believe that, but that is why some manufacturers go to the trouble to angle the sides, it is preferred by more than a few users. As for the back of a morticing chisel not being perfectly flat, of all chiseling jobs, morticing is the one that requires a flat back the least. Mortice ends are frequently undercut slightly, so it really doesn't matter much as long as the back is in the ballpark. And lastly, handle shapes are half personal preference, and half objective. I don't own either of those brands, so I can't say if I even have a horse in the race, but I've never held a chisel that bothered me to distraction.

@738polarbear

3 жыл бұрын

This is an EXCELLENT comment . Well thought out and clearly explained.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Well you know my oppinon about angled mortise chisels. The back needs to be flate (at least near the cutting edge to get a sharp edge, otherwise it is not as critical as a bench chisel and I explain that in the video. I am fuzzy about my handtools because I want the work right and feelright. I have held lots of tools that dont feel right

@TristanJCumpole

3 жыл бұрын

It would be advisable for anybody to review the points raised by Rob - in addition to those countering - in order to make a more gnostic hands-on assessment between tools and what is best on a personal level. The video as presented leaves the viewer with the "only reasonable option" being to buy the LN, when in fact many of the positives for it are subjective, or at least weighted from time served with the tool. In a teaching context, students learning how to carry out a process well using "less than but still" adequate tools underlines the demands and how a better tool might serve them better. A less-hard steel certainly teaches a student how to assess edge geometry and resharpening cycles! I wouldn't be so dismissive of the Narex. Often the best tool is the one you have, but knowing how to make it work for the job is far more important.

@gazpal

3 жыл бұрын

@@TristanJCumpole agreed, plus many adjust the haft of new chisels, etc., to suit their own hand rather than adapt to using a totally different style of handle. It's all part of the craft and it's a poor craftsman who can't adapt his tools to suit him/herself. So much seems to be taken for granted that tools should be capable of working straight from the box, but this ignores the fact many makers provide tools that are capable of being adapted and honed to suit the end-user's needs/requirements.

@TristanJCumpole

3 жыл бұрын

@@gazpal This is bordering on the conversation about how vertical market brands like Festool are....amazing at doing one job and one job only. This approach to tool-making has its merits, but becomes a very expensive proposition that ends up with brand decompression therapy being needed at some stage....! Being more specific about mortising chisels, I would say that by the time one is considering tools dedicated to a single task, one's pretty much beyond the stage of comparing a Narex to a LN chisel which makes the basis of the conversation somewhat less valid. Perhaps it's fair to say that buying a Narex tool and understanding its blind spots as raised has merit, rather than buying the "best" and not fully appreciating where the tool is earning its crust, or worse, using it once in a blue moon to create perfect mortises that have no better value than a slightly hackier one. Regret and earned hindsight have their own learning curves which can't easily be replaced by advice or brand advocacy!

Love my Iyoroi Japanese mortise chisels 3/8 & 1/2. Definitely worth consideration as well.

If only there were any Lie Nielsen chisels in stock. Haven't been able to get my hands one for a long time now.

Your videos never get old...unfortunately we do:). Thank you!

Just to be a little extra specific the rockwell scale is not linear its exponential. So going from 59 to 62 is in all reality a major jump in hardness.

Your video uploads are definitely the highlight of my day!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks

Good review. Thank you.

Marking lines across the mortise layout to start the chisel square is a great tip. Thank you. Will be watching your M&T vid soon.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Great. Let me know what you think of it

Thanks for a great review video! I appreciate your expert opinion. All of my "good" chisels are Narex and I have a couple of their mortise chisels. You are absolutely correct about the back not being flat and needing a lot of work. Having said that, I build a jig and use my hand held router (power tool) to cut my mortises. I have never chopped one with a chisel. I am inspired by how easy you make it look, except for flattening the bottom. I did use my wider Narex chisel when I chopped my mallet head. I am sure you would cringe at the hole but I do love that mallet. One day I hope to buy a top shelf chisel. However, I do find that Narex is way better than the other budget chisels that I have bought. Thank you for the education you are giving me! I notice that you use IBC chisels. There are so many different brands of chisels and several manufacturers have different lines under their name. Other than going up to Maine, in the Lie-Neilsen store, I don't know where to even try for myself. I haven't seen where anyone advertises that the sides are parallel or the back is flat. Some don't even tell the steal or hardness. Anyway, it is hard to really know what is best and how much better so I really appreciate you insight.

I use my Narex mortice chisel as a blade in my home made router plane. Its thickness, and very parallel sides along their length make it ideal at a low price, and as a result it works really well.. The sides are tapered (across the blade) by about 4 degrees on each side, but in my case the back of it was really flat (I must have been lucky). I also have a Sorbey which is definitely not tapered, and the huge Pig handle is a delight to use.

As has been stated, not an apple to orange comparison. I agree there is no surprise the LN is much better quality at twice the price. As I have just today received a Narex Richter bevel chisel, I can attest to the much finer handle quality, plus a HRC of 62. An awesome chisel for the price. The distinction that is made is that Narex does not produce a mortising chisel in the Richter model. All in all this video is a great comparison between the two, showing you what details the extra cost goes towards.

I saw this just in time, as I'm getting ready to spend some money on chisels. Thanks for posting!

Perfect timing. I was just thinking of getting some mortise chisel and I was not sure what size. Thanks!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Glad I could help!

I had just purchased the Narex and they were on the way when I saw this video. They arrived yesterday. I decided to test the flatness, and the back leaves about 3/8" from the edge as I started, and the scratch pattern shows that untouched edge. I ordered a couple LN. But I had a question about the non-square edges... I was looking at the Veritas mortise chisels, and it says they are "relieved" to prevent being jammed in the mortise. While the Narex were as you mentioned - not the same on one side vs the other, is that "relief" a good argument, and more a preference and counter to the absolute square edge of the LN that prevents twisting? One LAST question - after the video, I decided to try something: auger out with a 3/8" bit from a mortiser, square up with the square chisel as a low-cost alternative. My test was "ok", but only tried one in poplar. Guess using a bench chisel would work as good? A wide chisel better?

Awesome video sir.

I would say you’ve done a good job in the mortise video. As I ordered 2LN chisels after the video knowing that you recommended them earlier on. Thank you for the videos.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching and commenting

Lot of good arguments! Picking the best quality tools is even more important if you're an amateur/hobbyist. Pros do things for the buck but amateurs for the love. As a pro you get some compensation (money) for using sub-optimal tools ( as long as it's efficient enough) but as an amateur, you get nothing; it's the act of doing/making which is the only thing that matters and it should be as enjoyable as possible.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

well said

@DJe1957

3 жыл бұрын

After this Summer's carpentry at our cottage I can heartily second this. It's hard to maintain the passion of doing if the equipment is not at all up to the task. Then there's the aspect of safety etc, when you can concentrate fully on what you're doing without getting tired and so on too easy.

Your feedback is backed by decades of hands-on experience. I went straight for the Lie Nielsens and absolutely love them! I do wish you could mate the Lie Nielsen mortise chisels with the IBC handles. Now THAT would be a match made in heaven!!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Thats a great idea

Interesting. I have many chisels including stanley sweetheart and Freud and buying less expensive or used sets to use until my better sets would turn up again. Some of my favorite chisels were the old wooden handled Footprint chisels which were hardened to the same rockwell as some of my Japanese chisels. The Stanley chisels were not nearly as hard but somewhat easier to sharpen. They all work fairly well. However if you are going to be hand chopping mortises all day long frequently, then by all means find the best and most comfortable that you can. Another option is that if you have a blacksmith (think Homish etc.) nearby you can get custom made to your specifications. Expensive tools are not always the best and viewing the above video is an excellent way to help you determine your needs. Sometimes a tool from Lie Nielsen is the easiest way to obtain a tool which will fit your needs. I have several tools from Lie Nielsen and am satisfied with them. Now if I had a solution for my crippled osteoarthritic hands I could use them enjoyably much more frequently.

I invested in a full set of LN's 5 years ago. I smile every time I pull them out

@marianslavescu46

3 жыл бұрын

It doesn't mean you will cry after trying a Narex. It is very likely that you will still smile.

I have the narex and I really do love it!

I just received a couple of Sorby Registered Mortice Chisels, 13 and 25 mm. They seem more like heavy firmers, but they are pretty stout. I'll still want the L-N 1/2", when they are available again, but I was especially wanting a 1 inch for the Anarchist's Workbench I plan to start, soon. They seem decent after some practice cuts. Not milled quite as nicely as the L-Ns, and similar in price, but it didn't take a ton of work to get them ready to go, and they take a nice edge. It will be interest to see how they hold up to southern yellow pine. Ergonomically, they feel more like timber framing than fine woodworking tools, but that's about how I plan to use them.

best way to start the day.... one of your videos. Thank you Sir

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

So nice of you

@Dtsmith69

3 жыл бұрын

@@RobCosmanWoodworking even better when you have had a bad day!

I just recently bought 2 Narex mortise chisels to work in some old (200 year old hand hewn) Oak. Both chisel tips chipped right away, seemed brittle. The wood is hard, but none of my other tools seemed bothered by it.

Rob, can you do a video on used or vintage tools? I’d like to see what your opinions are on vintage vs new tools. I like restoring and tuning up vintage tools to put back to use, I always wonder how a vintage tool would compare to some of you tools.

I tried out a Narex mortice chisel. It wasn't for me, I ended up sending it back and getting a set of Ashley Iles firmer chisels. I've since picked up a couple of antique traditional mortice chisels with octagonal handles. The backs are anything but flat, they'll be a bit of a labour of love to get them in good shape.

Great video Rob. My grandpa and father both told me, "buy it once, buy it right, and it will last you". I've never forgot that and it has served me well for many years. I have a full set of Lie-Nielsen bench chisels and mortise chisels. Sure it was a fair amount of coin but they are amazing to hold in the hand and a real joy to use. And isn't that one of the primary reasons for hand tool woodworking? I took your Handmade Dovetail class out in Woodcraft in Seattle (Ron/Michelle) some years ago, great class and I highly recommend to anyone considering attending one of your classes it is time well spent.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Seattle is the only Woodcraft I still teach at each year. Thanks for the shout out and I like your grandfather

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Seattle is the only Woodcraft I still teach at each year. Thanks for the shout out and I like your grandfather

@grega1207

3 жыл бұрын

@@RobCosmanWoodworking I really appreciated your attention to detail. I have most of your older DVDs and they're very good. What I gained from your in person class was priceless. I was learning the dovetail method and you spotted a very subtle yet important thing I wasn't perfect on. Once you showed me that I was off and running and my dovetails were beautiful. That's why I always recommend to people to get with your mentor and get hands on instruction. It's well worth it :-)

It's very much worth looking at (and reviewing.....) the Ray Iles mortice chisels. These are traditional style and very substantial in the hand, the handle being oval in cross section with a big bolster giving an automatic feel for squareness when cutting. The steel is D2 and very durable. You see them now and then in the hands of the odd celebrity woodworker (Chris Schwarz etc) but they just aren't advertised too well. I couldn't easily find a set in the UK a few years ago (but could see them for sale in the US ironically and still can) but realised eventually that his workshop was only 50 miles away....

what is your opinion on curving the bevel (when sharpening )for chopping tasks when using the chisel. I was told this is how it was done traditionally on mortice chisels to prevent the chisel from wedging itself in the wood when chopping?

My Narex work perfectly. Perfect mortises every time.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

If you know how to use them thats excellent

@toddgrant4268

3 жыл бұрын

Personal preference

Excellent!

The biggest problem isn't the price difference.....which is quite substantial. LN is $100 per chisel. Narex is $100 for a box of 6. The biggest problem is the LN are never in stock. I'm guessing they produce them in batches when they get enough interest.

“Our mission is to share the joy and peace...”. The obvious purpose of woodworking is to build things. Joy and peace are MAJOR side benefits. Rob Cosman thinks as he works. I appreciate learning what he thinks about. “Man is that he might have joy.” I love that thought along with all the little reasons we have tools designed as they are over centuries of time by thinkers like Rob. BRAVO!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Wow thanks. Glad you found the video helpful

I was so pleased to see the hollowness of the ground on the bevel. I highly phrase the Lie Nielsen for 4 square corners on the blade. The same parallel designed flat faces on the blade. You surprised me with the hollow grown. That is the way my training taught us in school. I noticed as you chop with the Lie Nielsen the down force very smooth and pushed the tool ahead due to the hollow ground edge. Pluss one can tell by the way you handled the Lie Nielsen in the work that the tool was working harder than you. Not so with the Narex.

thanks for sharing the video

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching

Congrats Rob on your channels growth, so well deserved!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Its all due to COLLuther...Thanks for watching

Thanks for the video. Lie Nielsen are pretty expensive down here in Australia (about US$92), but I might put off a mortise chisel until I can afford one! Thanks for the tips!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Yes thats a shame....Thanks for watching

Thanks for the information, I also like the idea of supporting a made in the USA when I can get the quality at a fair price.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely!

@ksh_tech

3 жыл бұрын

so people living in europe should by narex to support a made in Europe?

@frankhill9527

3 жыл бұрын

My answer would be yes if you feel it is good quality at a fair price. I have purchased planes and chisels made outside the US if they are as good or better in quality and a fair price. I have learned that at times the better quality can cost more and for I will pay the higher cost for a better product.

Watched your mortise video last weekend; this is the p e r f e c t companion!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Thats why we made it! Thnaks for watching

Narex also makes the richter line which has alleviated a lot of the issues he mentioned. They also have a rocwell of 60 - 62.

... thanks for your time speed to educate. To bad that I can't find any of Lie Nielsen's mortice chisels on the other side of the pond , because it's no way I can get one from US . Thanks again for your efforts !!!

I read a few comments here that discuss alternatives to Rob's recommendations. By all means, there is always more than one way to skin a cat, but - these videos are meant to guide those who haven't skun one previously and also for those who would like to continue learning their art. The method shown is one used by an expert cat skinner with decades of experience. The information that newbies and more advanced cat skinners can glean from the video is 1. free, 2. offered without strings or rewards attached, 3. based on a wealth of first hand knowledge, and 4. meant to save the newbie a lot of hard knock lessons. For my part, the video explains to me why my Narex mortice (bought 12 months ago) chisels do what they do and what I can do to compensate. And I got all that for free from a guy who works really hard to give me priceless information that took him decades to compile. Thanks Rob.

@1deerndingo

3 жыл бұрын

@Hugh Chewb It's NZ english. Just think, you are able to understand numerous languages English, Canadian, NZ, Aussie, some South African, Irish english too.

@ricos1497

3 жыл бұрын

@Hugh Chewb Fit kind? Doric, Orkney, Shetland, regional Scots, Gaelic?

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

well said...thankyou

Hi Rob, great video as always!! I was just wondering how crucial the flat back is on a mortise chisel compared to a beveled-edge chisel. I understand on the beveled-edge you need COMPLETE flatness for reference when pairing, but what benefit do you get from having the mortise chisel completely flat as opposed to mostly flat?

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Its only important at the tip in order to get a sharp cutting edge

I checked my Narex mortise chisels after watching this video. My 1/4" chisel is fine and I've not had any trouble using it. The 3/8" chisel however is out of square by almost 1/8"! I'm surprised I didn't see it without a square. The mortising I've done with this chisel, while functional, never looked good before assembly. The inside of the mortise looks like I chopped it with a screwdriver. The chisel is too far out of square for me to fix. Just chalking this up to another lesson learned that cost me some money.

I have alot of Narexs. Happy with them for my level of use and budget. Also have a set of Sorby registered mortise chisels so I'm good.

My 1/2" Lie Nielsen arrived today. This is the first mortising chisel I've bought, and so I don't have any comparative analysis to make of one brand or type to the next. What I will say is this: out of the box I spent about 15 minutes flattening the back and polishing down through grits 800, 1000, 1200, 2000, 3000, and 16,000 (Shapton glass). It did take a bit of work to actually get a polish down to the bevel tip, but not a big problem. I measured the bevel angle at ~29.5 degrees, and added a secondary of maybe 2 more degrees along with a tertiary bevel. Since I've never used a mortise chisel, I was completely amazed at how easy it drove true and straight against my marked lines! It rested well in my hand and was easy to set and drive without wandering in the cut. My previous experience cutting mortises by hand has been with regular bench chisels and drill press, and impossible to get a true cut. I can't imagine ever needing to do so again unless absolutely necessary for some particular reason! All together it took me about 5 minutes to cut out a 1/2" by 1 1/8" by 2 1/4" mortise that had nearly perfectly flat, plumb, and parallel walls in 8/4 Sepelle. Sorry Narex, not even going to give you a try at this point - maybe down the road someday! :-) I have projects on the bench that will benefit greatly from just this one tool!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

wise choice

Thank you Rob, we chat the other week and I ended up buying the LN ones, no regrets. I appreciate you took the time and made this video. I also noticed that LN leaves cleaner cheeks.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

And smoother cheeks produce a better glue joint.

Rob, I am little puzzled that I have not noticed you talk about Veritas - ever. I appreciate very much your insights and as a Czech who is very familiar with Narex tools I completely agree with you. They are what we call here "finish yourself at home" type - which is very time-consuming. (And as a proud owner of your dovetail saw I gladly witness that it is the best dovetail saw I have ever had in my hand, - and I own Lie-Nielsen and Veritas one as well) BUT back to the mystery: why is it that you pretend Lee-valley and Veritas do not exist? Their plains and chisels are on par with Lie-Nielsen if not better. Would really appreciate your response as that is clouding my understanding for a long time. Thank for all your work and sharing. Tomas

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Sorry, but I cannot comment on veritas tools

@tomashancil7805

3 жыл бұрын

@@RobCosmanWoodworking Yes I see that you dont. I am not forcing you to. I am just curious whether you can comment on the reason you cannot comment on Veritas. Me (and perhaps others) would appreciate if we understood the reason behind it. But do not feel forced to do that. we love your teaching and can live with the mystery... Thank you

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

I dont use them so it would be unfair to review. I think LN makes the best planes, I make the best saws, IBC makes the best chisels. I think Woodriver offers the best "value" in planes, not the same level of finish on the plane but the wood cant tell the difference. When you look at a LN plane, it is based off a tried and true Stanley bedrock. Same goes for the Woodriver. I dont see any reason to vary from either of these.

As another commenter stated it would be interesting to see Lie-Nielsen compared to the Veritas PM-V11. For the 1/4" chisel the Veritas is almost 50% more expensive. Other differences you commented on are features of the Veritas. Your objectivity is always appreciated.

@eherlitz

3 жыл бұрын

Oh yea, PM-V11 is way nicer than A2! The pricing of Veritas chisels though...

@tylersmith9868

Жыл бұрын

I don't get it. The price of LN 1/4 chisel is 95 USD. Which is $127.08 CAD. Veritas 1/4 chisel is $102.00 CAD so they are cheaper no?

My understanding is that the point of currency is to provide a sort of "objective value" to material objects. If, as you say, one chisel is priced three times higher than the other, it would stand to reason that there is some quality difference. You aren't comparing apples to apples. Compare that Narex chisel to whatever hardware store Irwin or Stanley chisel and see how it stacks up. The competition in the Narex's price range tends to use some gummy rubber and acrylic handle that feels like a video game controller in the hand, while the Narex is made with real solid hardwood. The Narex has A2 tool steel hardened to within one RC point of the Lie Nielsen. How does that extra point work itself out in the daily use of the tool? Is it possible to tell the difference? Seems like the hardness of the material you are cutting would make a bigger difference than that one point of RC difference. Ergonomics are completely subjective because they are dependent on the body and work style of the user. Of course you are going to say the one you helped design (and for many years repped) fits your design criteria better. All of this is to say, if the Narex was the exact same price as the Lie Nielsen, this might be a compelling conversation to have. But when there are only minor, marginal differences in quality between the two (differences which probably vary greater within a particular run of tools of a given manufacturer more than they do between the two tools presented) it obviously reflects better on the Narex than the Lie Nielsen. Id go so far as to say someone who is buying tools for any reason other than collector's value would be wise to pick the Narex, because if something happens and your chisel chips or the handle splits, you are only out ~$20 instead of ~$70.

Rob... I'm curious...What was your motive comparing Nielsen that costs 3x more then Narex only to set up Narex to fail by comparison. Your points are valid but it doesn't seem like a level playing field. So why do it.

I went the route of buying vintage oval-bolstered mortise chisels, aka pig stickers. I have 1/4” and 1/2” to cover most needs, though I may well add a 3/8” when one comes up at the right price. My 1/4” cost me £10 (about $15) including shipping. I think the 1/2” was cheaper because it needed re-handling. I don’t grind the bevels on a power grinder because a) I only have a 6” wheel and b) I like a slightly convex bevel, which comes naturally with free hand sharpening.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe i should do a review of isles pig sticker mortise chisels

I really like to see comparisons between affordable vs expensive, not just affordable vs affordable, and not just Woodriver (though I also like to see reviews on Woodriver!). Thanks Rob!

About handles and ergonomics: how good the handle is in your hand depends a lot on how big hands you have. For me, personally, most tools has too small and skinny handles. Any gloves (as an example) smaller then xxl will not fit my hand, to give you an idea. On the other hand, making a handle that fit perfect in my hand is a fast job even if I'm doodling around with handtools only and make it from scratch from a piece of log taken out of the pile I allways seem to sort out from the woodburning logs. If you guys havent tried it, give it a go! Making handles is both easy, good training and gives that perfect and personal fit exactly to your liking.

I'm fairly new to wood working, but it took me over an hour to flatten the back of my newly purchased Narex. I really wish I had seen this before I bought one hahaha.

I am using a set of Narex mortise chisels, and when I chop a mortise they sometimes have a tendency to twist a little bit. I couldn’t figure out why until I saw you mentioning they have a slight bevel of 1 degree. I measured mine and indeed they do. I guess it’s time for me to save up and buy the Lie Nielsen ones.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Wish I could have helped when you were making your purchase. Sorry.

@christobar

3 жыл бұрын

Same here. Narex are my first chisels, and the mortisers twist when chopping. I thought it was normal... time for an upgrade

Hi Rob, my father; who was a cabinet maker and carpenter was born in 1902 and spent his life in the carpenter and cabinet maker trade. When he died I inherited all his tools and among them was a 3/8” “Winchester” socket chisel. . .the nearest I can calculate is that the chisel is at least 100 years old since they discontinued manufacturing them around 1921-22 and, of course, I don’t know how long he owned this chisel, so it could be even older. My question is; the handle is broken and I want to replace it with a new one but I can’t seem to get the old handle off. I’ve tried repeatedly ‘whacking’ it on my workbench to get it off but to no avail. It is LIKELY that the original handle is still on there. Do you have any suggestions for removing the handle? Thanks for your help.

You can hardly tell Rob prefers the expensive chisel lol

@pag345

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah Chisel snob Rob ;) If we all had unlimited tool budgets, sure... I get it. But when it's a hobby, not how we make a living, the Narex are a GREAT chisel at an unbeatable price. Picked up a set at Lee Valley years ago, and have never looked back

@MrGunner296

3 жыл бұрын

I think Rob was exceedingly transparent (honest!) about his history with LN. We all have our biases - hopefully arrived by real experience and thoughtful consideration.

@HeLaNoR

3 жыл бұрын

He is so sold to LN that all of this video has no point watching

Love my Lie Nielsen mortise chisel. Rob is right, spend the money on the best and you’ll always be happy when you use it.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

ditto

Thanks Rob, I've considered Narex chisels but didn't know anything about them other than than the company sales pitch. I have some Robert Sorby mortise chisels and while they are pretty good, they are somewhere in between the LN and the Narex (more toward the upper end of in between) but I've been looking to invest in better chisels. This info is great.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Sorby has good chisels. or at least they use to. I havent looked at any of their new stuff. Hopefully they have kept their standards.

@Dickie2702

2 ай бұрын

Narex have been making woodworking tools since 1919.

Pretty timely for me, since I have been shopping for mortice chisels. I bought my first, a 1/4 " LN, and like it a lot. I had reached the same conclusion that it and a 1/2 would suffice for now and maybe for good, but then I saw an ad for the Narex and how much less expensive they are. Not nearly as pretty, but if they work... I'll be picking up the LN next. Of course, the big thing is going to be learning to use them. Still, I have enough crappy chisels I've accumulated over the years. From here on out, if it isn't an upgrade, why buy it?

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

A solid method of thinking.

I got so lucky buying a set of 4 used LN mortise chisels years ago. Used. I'm not sure if they ever cut wood, before I got them. Oh, and I have your dovetail saw!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

Жыл бұрын

Yes!!

Thanks Rob, but you should really try the new narex Richter chisels.. They're absolutely amazing

@vogonpoet5860

3 жыл бұрын

really is sublective, i used my grandfathers saws and chisels as well as wood body planes, being a lucky boy i was bought anew saw stanley plane and resin handle chisels, the saw was uncomfortable, the plane felt awkward and the chisels felt horrible to use, not wishing to be ungatefull i used them whenever the giver was near and forced a look of pleasure. now years later after getting used to them i find myself using whichever i happen to pick up equally happily,both old and new have their differences, but none are deal breakers.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

I will give them a shot

@tuomasjjrasanen

3 жыл бұрын

Do they have Richter mortise chisels? I've only seen Richter bench chisels, and yes, they're amazing.

@ockamsrazr

3 жыл бұрын

@@tuomasjjrasanen I had the same question. I have only seen the bevel edge.

@ianmorgan889

3 жыл бұрын

They are Bevel-edged, not Mortice.

I have several Narex bench chisels and found them to be of excellent quality. All my mortise chisels are ancient, turn of the 20th century heirlooms, so they have seen some serious work. The comparison to the Lie-Nielsen's is a good overview, though and as I add a few modern ones, I'll be much more likely to buy the better quality. Hopefully my tools will be passed down like the ones I inherited as well.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

I will do some other comparison mortice chisel videos in the future

Had the Narex chisels in my Basket on Amazon, I have just deleted them-bizarre to make such bulky chisels and not bother to grind the sides parallel-a waste of steel and not much better than a bevel-edged chisel. Thanks for that review Rob, i'll just have to save up a bit longer for a few Lie Nielsens!

@janbernad4729

3 жыл бұрын

As Rob said, the angle of the side is just about a couple of degrees. In my opinion thats does not make such a great difference, regarding how many other different variables come into play. Sure, accuracy is nice, but its also expensive, and while for some people it might pay off, for others it might not. For the bulkiness, I think that this comes just to personal preference. I personaly like the shape of the handles of Narex chisels, they fit well in my hand and the bigger handle gives me good feedback of whats going on at the other end of the tool. Also, since those are made of wood, its not a big problem to adjust the shape to your liking (but with some limitations of course). Anyways, Id like to ask you to not judge things as harshly. Sure, everything has its flaws, but keep in mind that whilst those might be unacceptable for you, someone with different requirements might be absolutely fine with that and vice versa. Hope you find out what works the best for you.

Preciate ya

I recall an advertisement made decades ago by Bell motorbike helmets, it ran "if you have a ten dollar head, you'll buy a ten dollar helmet". Can't say I've ever bought el cheapo tools after seeing that.

Just my take on things- Some people have more time than money and taking 20 minutes to flatten the back isn't a deal breaker (get better stones if it takes you 1.5 hours). Other than the parallel sides (cutting the tenon to match the mortise takes care of that), there isn't much difference, other than looks. So basically, everything can be mitigated in less than 30 minutes. $130 compared to $50 (for two chisels), well; for 30 minutes of effort, your time would have to be worth more than $160 per hour (130-50+80*2, for 30 minutes of effort), to have the Lie Nielsen's be a good buy. Again, not everyone has a fat wallet.

@bloodgain

3 жыл бұрын

I have to agree on the sharpening part. I know he has the Trend diamond plates around. If something is that far out of plane, that's when I break out the 300 grit side of mine. Throw some sandpaper down on a flat reference surface if you have to. It only has to be done the first time. The lack of parallel sides was just a dumb design choice, though.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

I think you 30 minute estimate is way low. but go for it

@bestbuilder1st

3 жыл бұрын

@@RobCosmanWoodworking I've flattened the back and "adjusted" the bevel on more than 50 old abused chisels in the last few years, so I guess I do have a little bit of experience with it know how long it takes (diamond plates only and maybe sandpaper if really bad), and yes, they are very sharp. YMMV.

Terrific video Rob. I’ve heard you mention the one gripe many of us have about LN chisel handles letting go (invariably when you’re crossing the concrete floor shop) be tried a few things - a light smear of silicon caulk on the handle seems to work well, and is reversible and renewable. Thoughts?

Very informative Rob! I'm curious about your thoughts on some planes. Do you think a Wood River plane or a Lie Nielsen plane is better? Or is that going to be a different video?

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

good idea, we will work on that. Ill save my answer for the video. Stay tuned.

@jjwouters6436

3 жыл бұрын

Swell, looking forward to it.

I bought the whole set of narex chisels a few weeks ago. I'm starting a kitchen table/side counter top ... thing. Haven't even really taken them out of the box yet. Ah well. Luckily I work at the speed of a glacier in the shade at night, so I can take my time.

@edbourgoine5022

3 жыл бұрын

I purchased the set of Narex bevel chisels a couple years ago. They did require quite a bit of work to initially get the backs flat (and the 6mm one had a bit of a nasty twist in the back and probably should have been sent back). Once sharpened up they have performed well and seem to hold their edge. Would I buy the LN chisels instead? Probably knowing that a small number of chisels actually get most of the use I might opt for the more expensive ones, just fewer of them.

@roscocsa

3 жыл бұрын

@@edbourgoine5022 I have some of the bevel chisels as well. They did take some work that's for sure.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

send me a pic of your finished table

I purchased the Narex set awhile ago and had the chance to compare uising them vs an old set of Marples with parallel sides. The main difference I was interested in was the effect of the angled sides. I found the Narex drifted and chewed up the sides of the mortise, which was discouraging. My main concern in the end is the life of the tool. On my Narex chisels, the usable edge at the expected size of the chisel, say 1/4", ends after maybe 3/8". I guess I'm confused why anyone would make a mortise chisel that is useless once it has been sharpened back only 3/8ths. After that it is no longer a 1/4" width. In order to get the same use out of it you'd need to grind the entire length to the next lowest size. I may never sharpen them that much (I def won't cus I'm returning them) but regardless it means that 95% of the tool is designed to be thrown away or you're forced to overhaul it to continue getting proper use... I would think that would have been your largest gripe!

Personally, I like the my three Narex mortising chisels well enough and for what I do. My 3/8" (yep, they're SAE not metric) is square on ONE side to about 1/1000" (best I can measure) but the other side is about 1 degree tapered up. The 1/4" and 1/2" are both not perfectly square either... about 1 to 1.5 degrees off square. Fortunately, all angles taper towards the "top" of the blade. That said, I really haven't had any issue when using them in practical terms once they were flattened. They required a fair bit of elbow grease to flatten: all 3 had a ~ .2 x 30mm "cup" about 1/3 of the way up from the edge.

I don’t have much hands on experience on chopping mortise. I watched a lot of tutorial videos, and I usually use my hollow chisel motiser to do majority of the work and use bench chisel to do some clean up work. On all the tool stands and work benches I made, they were ok. What I have noticed is different styles of using a mortise chisel. In northern part of China, generally speaking, we start with chisel flat side forward, bevel facing us, start around 1/4 to 1/3 from near side of the mortise, tilt chisel handle forward , ride on the flat side during chopping, and without fully pulling chisel out, tilt back and ride on bevel side and follow with a chop or two then move forward. The last bit is with flat side perpendicular to work face, with 1 or 2 passes depending on wood hardness, then flip chisel, flat side facing us, bevel facing forward. At this point, mortise should be chopped close to the near end, so the last 1 or 2 perpendicular again.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

Thnaks for watching and commenting

I hear a lot about honoring the Veteran. I applaud and whole heartedly agree with all of these. I am so afraid people say "thank you for your service" to Veterans and do NOT actually think about what they have done. I have had the honor of daily working with these people for over 40 years. Hearing their stories of combat, going hungry, and the conditions they had to endure. What we see in pictures is very mild compared to the actual conditions encountered. I am posting this on today because I still have not been able to completely watch the video from the other night without falling apart.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

COL Luther who created the video said he took him 3 days to record it because he was crying just reading it. It was such an honor to be able to do that for Herman and all Vets

This is a very good comparison. Lie Nielsen chisels are lovely to look at and to hold. They're really marvelous, and made by fine American craftsmen. No one regrets owning their tools. But if you will only need a tool a handful of times, and it will sit in a drawer unseen and unused until you retire, then the Narex is probably the way to go.

@Rich32262

7 ай бұрын

Maybe if we all bought the better tool, it would inspire us to use them more. Hmmm. If not, I agree with you.

What do you think of the Veritas PMV VII and the Sorby chisels?

A lot of "good to know" info regarding those chisels~! I went straight for the Lie-Nielsens a few months ago based on your recommendation and I haven't looked back. I was a fan of their equipment already, so your input just drove the point home even further. With regard to bench chisels, I have a full set of Stanley Sweethearts. Do you have any opinions about those? Thanks for the video~!!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

I do and it is low. I think they really missed the mark. I remember when they first were introduced. I was at a woodshow and the Stanley booth was across from mine. THe rep asked if I had time if I would come over and tell him what I thought. My first question was "want me to be polite or honest"? He chose the latter and he got an ear full, politely. You will be lucky to find one that is close to flat, not much on holding an edge, bevel top instead of bevel edge.

@andrewbrown8148

3 жыл бұрын

@@RobCosmanWoodworking I do like the socket handle design, but yes, I too am not fond of the beveled tops. That made it difficult to use a sharpening jig, but that was prior to my discovering your sharpening method. Goodbye jigs~! Looks like I'll be asking Santa for some IBC chisels this year and using the Stanleys for more abusive jobs. ;-) Thanks for the response, Rob~!

I agree with everything you said with one exception. I think you can get by with one 3/8” mortise chisel!

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

That will work too

@Gwynbuck

3 жыл бұрын

Not if you want to chisel out a 1/4" mortice!

Yeah ,Lie-Nielsen makes great tools no doubt but put in perspective if you are a only using a tool once in a while you don't always need the Best! I purchased the Narex and I think there fine! How many people cut a lot of mortise's by hand? there is also the option of making the tenon fit the mortise! I agree having sold tools that if you pick up a tool and it feels good in the hand it usually is a good tool!

One day, I hope to be rich enough to be allowed a preference. Love the value I got from my Narex Mortising Chisel, even if I had to spend some time flattening the backs.

Was the Lie Nielsen $65 two years ago? It's $125 today.

I have the narex set and a LN 1/4". I spent the money on the LN because 1/4" is the joint I do the most. The tapered sides on the Narex are what bug me. I think that is what causes the twisting action. But if you are careful and pay attention, they work good enough.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with you , you canmake them work, but when I spend money on a tool I expect it to work right. They would be such a better chisel if they just ground the sides square to the back

I own both and I've gone back to standard bench chisels for mortising every time. They're lighter, less awkward in the hands, I find they don't twist as much as my mortise chisels, and I get cleaner mortises. I just feel like I have more control than with mortise chisels. The only downside is that they can bend if you're not careful levering the waste.

@RobCosmanWoodworking

3 жыл бұрын

I am going to bet you have never mortised with a high quality mortising chisel

3:28 it used to cost 65 USD, now it cost 125 USD. What happened to Lie Nielsen the last 2 years that cause a double price increase?