My main issue with monk timers was that the UI sucks for watching timers that aren't on the job gauge. I would like a dot monitor UI I could pull out from the mob debuffs without filtering out everything else. That's not an issue now, but a better UI would have been just as good to me.

Take a shot every time Frosty says "okay, okay"

@MogTalk

2 ай бұрын

Dude, you won't make it past the first 10 minutes

Feel like we should revisit 1-70 and make them flow better maybe even bringing down some of the high end stuff into the lower lvl ranges

Im someone who im the only person i know in my group of friends that uses zero mods

@nodot17

2 ай бұрын

Yea most mods don't really appeal to me Especially animation mods they're so over the top half the time.

@marslara

2 ай бұрын

@@nodot17 They are often too much I think. The only ones I've liked have been from papachin

@somnus970

2 ай бұрын

When i was playing, only thing i used was a hrothgar hat mod.

@arcaneSae

2 ай бұрын

@@somnus970 i have my chocobo head so i never cared about the no hat thing xD

@Bon-Gi

2 ай бұрын

I also use zero mods!

1:11:48 "Guys we got 45 minutes to talk all these other changes" ... yet the vod goes for another 2 hours haha. LET THEM COOK!

4:15 When it comes to having Job Complexity versus Encounter Complexity, what has to be considered is that Job Complexity can make up for a bad Encounter, but a good Encounter is a necessity for lower Job Complexity to be acceptable. As an example, if we look at two 'boring' fights where nothing really happens (comparatively speaking to other Savages), O6S and P6S, we can see they're both very slow in the speed of the mechanics coming out. Speaking as a healer player (soon potentially not), O6S's slow pace could be glossed over, because back then Scholar had like 3 DOTs it could apply and manage, and AST had a much more variable Card system where sometimes you got the god-rolls and sometimes you had awful luck, go again. By contrast, however, in P6S a Scholar has nothing to do when the content is learned and on farm, outside of pressing their one DOT once every 30s, and then mindlessly pressing Broil 11 times in a row until the next time it's time to refresh the DOT. The encounter falls flat, but the job design doesn't have the optional depth available to salvage it, and so it's just a bland experience for the player. Instead, I think the Job Complexity should be looked at again, keeping the 'skill floor' where it currently is on the jobs, but raising the skill ceiling. As an example, if Scholar were to have Broil 5 at 300p, Biolysis at 350p over 30s, Miasma at 340; over 24s, and Shadowflare at 320p over 15s, then the potency difference between refreshing your DOTs on time, and 'oops I forgot and cast another Broil' is incredibly small. Keeping the skill floor (of just pressing Broil over and over) relatively strong, while giving the potential skill ceiling to chase for those that seek it (by managing 3 staggered DOT timers). And so, even in casual content like Roulettes or Maps etc, a skilled player could find the potential for additional engagement, by interacting with this optional depth. But when it comes to Enrage timers, the potency difference is so marginal that it makes less difference than the Crit Variance we already have to suffer through. Stormblood had the Job:Encounter complexity balance right, in my opinion.

@SubduedRadical

2 ай бұрын

I'm kind of curious if SGE getting Miasma 2 and...maybe a Shadowflare standin? (that thing that draws a glyph on the ground)...if it'll be dipping a toe into SB SCH. I guess it depends on the potencies and stuff. Like will Eukrasia Dyskrasia (EuDys?) DoT stack with EuDosis? If so, you have two DoTs to play with IF it's also a damage gain over Dosis. Which is...likely? DoTs tend to easily outdamage direct damage just because of all the ticks adding up.. Like a 15 second DoT (5 ticks) of 60 damage would be damage neutral with Dosis (300) while EuDosis does 75. So a 65 damage 15 sec AOE DoT would still be a (marginal) damage gain over Dosis. Alternatively, a 42.8... damage DoT with a 21 sec duration is damage neutral with Dosis (so 45 potency EuDys would handle that). I guess my point is, I'm not sure if they WILL do it, but it's fairly easy that they could replicate Miasma 2 here for SGE with this, and with that extra CD that I'm imagining would be like when Shadowflare was a 60 sec CD, we have something that could play a bit like SB SCH on our hands here...

@somnus970

2 ай бұрын

I would agree with you if there was variances in each fight, but once you get the fight down, each trial/raid will become become boring.

@OneTallBloke

2 ай бұрын

​@@SubduedRadical Would be a bit bittersweet for the SCH players if SB SCH came back, but on SGE instead. Would be like WoW Warlocks losing Metamorphosis, only for Demon Hunters to get it 2 expansions later. I would expect that 'Eurkrasian Dyskrasia' (stupid name btw, the two words are an oxymoron) is simply a way to apply Eukrasian Dosis DOT in AOE. In fact, I'd be surprised if the duration was different. Your maths about making the AOE DOT 'slight gain over Dosis' is also slightly off, as Dosis 3's potency is 330, so 65x5 wouldn't be enough to be 'slight gain'. I doubt the new move is anything like Shadowflare (since it doesn't leave a puddle on the floor)

Woah Sindalf face cam!? Neat to have a face to put to the voice after all these years. I really had a laugh at how MAD he made folks on TWT last week. Felt like such a inconsequential tweet but it really blew up. Really good show Frosty, really loved the guests. I always enjoy hearing from Momo and Sindalf, and this is the first time I've seen Chile on something, I really liked hearing from him too!

I've been in the camp that gap closers shouldn't have damage tied to them since Shadowbringers. A different damaging oGCD should be given to classes, but a gap closer should be movement optimization. That's the best of both worlds. Cool movement abilities, and cool oGCDs.

@Eric-ih5mb

2 ай бұрын

It doesnt function the same. Choosing between gap closing and damage is a per fight decision thats dynamic. An ogcd that just does damage is always an ogcd that just does damage. Its no longer a choice, it just is. So its not really best of both worlds. That being said I dont want damage on gap closers

@oEXTRA

2 ай бұрын

​@@Eric-ih5mbchoosing to sacrifice some burst damage for slight utility just doesn't feel good. There are far better ways to give choice (like different combo routes). I much prefer they just take the potency from gap closers, and put it on another oGCD, at least for all the tanks.

29:20 NAILED IT right on the head Frosty, accessibility is great but lets not act like thats the reason for some of these changes lmao

nah gap closers having dmg was always stupid glad they are getting rid of that

I’m actually not wholly negative when it comes to monk. I really need to see more of it and actually play with it before i give my thoughts.

@SubduedRadical

2 ай бұрын

This is me with a lot of the changes. I'm looking at things and thinking "I'd like to see more/see how it feels to play". Maybe I'm too patient, but I feel like a lot of people are jumping the gun.

@nodot17

2 ай бұрын

​@@SubduedRadicallike they did last time

@soliquidsnake3990

2 ай бұрын

@@SubduedRadicalthey always jump the gun.

On assize: unlike gap closers, it was incredibly rare to actually think about whether or not it's better to "hold assize to heal the party." Of course when you get down to hyperoptimizing a fight, you would just check if you lose a use or not, but if you were playing normally, like prog, the mana is too important to wait on, as well as the damage being worth more than a GCD heal in the first place, so it's better to just never lose a use of assize, even if you had to do a medica II to cover something during its cooldown. Personally, I don't think any one button should be as packed in different uses as Assize is, mainly because it always boils down to "don't lose a use" when something does damage in the end. For the player actually playing WHM, it feels fine, but as the other healer, the sage or scholar playing with WHMs, it feels kind of annoying when your cohealer is clicking buttons that heal you at full health. It paints a bad picture a lot of the time.

Pod has been out for almost 24 hours and I don't see anyone complaining about something sindalf said in the comment section yet. That's got to be a first.

really nice vid, but tbh i would have liked more to have it splitted into 3 separated videos, tank, healer and dps

I understand the super optimised complaint, we know they've added multiple follow ups to other buffs (especially party buffs) to encourage people not to just hold the buffs that they do not use. They specifically said "ready to break" being a buff from no mercy, I know it was not until I started doing savage that I used presence of mind as a whm because I always was "holding just in case". This will help casual/regular players to increase their skill and learn more.

My two cents about the idea of abilities having button continuation. I think there is a world where they can do 1-1-1 combo rotations and make them interesting, but not necessary for every class. For example, we already see classes like Samurai who need to go down their different paths for the buffs and stickers, or Dancer who will randomly go from a 1-2 to a 1-2-3-4. However, in PvP, Dancer has a 1-1-1 that interacts with it's other skills, mid continuation combo. This is something that could add complexity back to the class without bloating the skillbar. Another example is something like Ninja, which has Ninjutsu restrictions in PvP to change up the otherwise constant use of your biggest damage ability. Sometimes small negatives can act to push things in a more interesting direction. After all, Black Mage is fun because of cast bars, and the interactions around having to use them or circumvent them.

I would hate falloff mitigation for rampart, when there's situations where you would want to early apply it

blue mage should get something like a partywide leylines. eight blue mages planting their party buff zones around the arena in sequence

Spriggan could also be Krile's unique thing like alphinuad's moon carbuncle or something

About the 20 second timers. Its redundancies. Sometimes balance in a game needs redundancies, you don't need to optimize for the 20 seconds. Someone said it earlier in the conversation, it was just a QoL change.

Rest in piece my dragon kick rotation. I will miss you

A big thing I dislike about the idea that job complexity can be countered with future encounter design updates is that it disregards the overwhelming percentage of existing fights that will now just be less interesting if jobs become too simple. Yoshi P had this same approach when responding to questions about whether healers could have more DPS variety; even if the newer fights did require lots more healing, which inevitably will become less strict as item levels increase, that completely ignores how healers don't need to heal that much for most existing (not future) content and thus end up doing what's currently an overly simplified and repetitive DPS rotation, if you can even call it that.

I think loud people use FFXIV combo, not most people. That said, if they want to add it, it's fine, I just don't want them to plan the number of key binds based on it. I have zero interest in using anything not in the game, personally.

To me Monk is going to be fine im with Frosty having to constantly look for twin snakes,demolish and bootshine buff doesnt make the job difficult just made it tedious. As for drg its my main and im not a fan of losing eyes makes me think we wont be using geir and high jump every 30sec which was part of the fun for me to stay a little busy in between bursts windows.

@MogTalk

2 ай бұрын

Scary beard

Personally, I think it would be dumb for them to hesitate to do things for jobs just because of old ultimates. It makes an old ultimate a little easier than whatever…

For shadowbringer, you already need a buff active to use it o.0

I personally think viper will be a selfish job it already is in its lore as a selfish hunter who is out hunting the biggest game for the biggest reward but unless every single button is on the bar there is only button that can be a potential raid buff and thats its 2 minute button that allows them to go into reawaken automatically and even that is a stretch for me because that does not pulse out like other abilities would and it does not inflict a debuff like ninja or scholar would so i personally think until proven wrong viper is our 4th selfish dps

"i don't like having to manage a dot on the boss and a buff and feeling bad when i mess it up" then go play any of the other 5 melees. i hate how this live letter felt like "we're going to cater this job to people who don't play this job and the people who do play this job can just suck it up and deal with it" we have choices so people can play what they vibe with. not every job should cater to everyone or why even have different jobs

@MogTalk

2 ай бұрын

Okie

Can you get some casters on to talk about BLM changes around the next SE info dump? I need more at work content

Combos being added to one button adds way more to accessibility than it takes away from skill expression. It’s a great change for new players, controller players who want to try a new input method, and even existing MnK players. I really wish we would stop pretending that hitting three buttons in sequence on different keys is a worthy measure of “skill”.

@laststep56

2 ай бұрын

Honestly any skill you have there still exists anyway. Cant you choose which combos even have the condensed button? So even with the example on dark knight you can still do that if you choose to leave it. They're running out of room for new buttons. My samurai hotbars are stuffed lmao

I am for the most part excited for dawntrail all things considered

I know button consolidation is a problem, but it’s difficult keep adding new abilities to some jobs without replacing things. Some people are completely out of space on their bars.

@TheOneGreat

2 ай бұрын

That's impossible, currently. But in the future it might be a problem.

@temisu_namisu

2 ай бұрын

If you only put actions on your bars, there is plenty of space. Even if you assume 50% utilisation, that's still plenty of space. What has to be considered, though, is how comfortable it is to use your abilities. As a gamepad user, I technically have 128 spaces (16x8). In practice, it's only comfortable to use a fraction of that. I suspect similar is true for keyboard; there's only so many keybinds you can reliably hit. So I don't mind consolidation for abilities that can only be used after another for the increase in comfortable gameplay. The focus should be on how interesting a job's gameplay actually is.

@TheOneGreat

2 ай бұрын

@@temisu_namisu You have 48 that are instantly accessible if you use a controller. No job comes even close to having that many abilities. That being said, I'm happy with the combo action change. Usually you don't press them out of order anyway.

SMN shoulda been Knights of the Round as their final summon

@MogTalk

2 ай бұрын

That'd play well with raiders I think

The development team’s stance on caster balance is really disheartening. We all know that all jobs can complete all content, but that doesn’t stop groups from pressuring players to play red mage and summoner. There are going to be a lot of people playing pictomancer at the beginning of the expansion. Unless these fights are designed in such a way that Rez isn’t important, we’ll continue to see this. Even if they do design fights with this in mind, that won’t stop the general community from thinking that way. Melee DPS and ranged DPS don’t have this problem. Unless Viper is extremely undertuned no one is going to complain that people are maining it for their raid group.

Assize was clearly balanced around clerics stance and ever since it went away any interesting choice to be made with it has also been dead.

Hey! I'm new to your channel and really binging a lot of your podcasts. But I'd like to mention that the opening song is way too loud, and kind of startling the way it comes out of a silence. It makes more sense for people actually watching the video but no sane person sits there looking at a zoom call for fun. Just my 2 cents I always skip that intro immediately.

I don't know where the idea came from that jobs need to be difficult or complex. All they need to be is fun and engaging, which doesn't necessarily equate to difficult or complex. Dancer is a good example of that. It's fun to play, but its rotation is not difficult or complex, really at all. Monk, imo is complex and takes a while to really grasp, and I see very few people main it.

@oEXTRA

2 ай бұрын

Yup this exactly. SMN is also another great example. Though it's braindead and the easiest job (plenty of people complain about this), many people play it because it's a fun firework show lol. Also along with MNK, AST is rarely played over WHM since it's harder. You always hear certain people complain about jobs being too simple but surprisingly hardly anyone plays the ones that require extra work.

@car-keys

2 ай бұрын

Complexity is fun. Difficulty is fun. Overcoming challenge is a core part of gaming, and having complex classes allows for lots of reward for mastering them.

@kasperraskjensen1081

2 ай бұрын

@@car-keys I would dearly like to hear your argument for how you can objectify fun -.- "fun" might just be one the most subjective topics, right up there with love. For me personally, I despise the very argument you just used of "Difficult = Fun" Let's tick down a list of jobs I've played a lot, all tried out in at least Savage content in EW SMN: Do I agree the rework made it extremely simple and easy? Yes. Am I having more fun playing it than ever? Also yes. BLM: Generally regarded as one of the harder jobs, though I personally disagree, I love playing it. So, that is 2 jobs each considerd on the opposit end of the difficuty index and yet I had fun with both, how odd? According to you that should be impossible, maybe if we go on your statement will gain validity? AST: Hard job to play, and I hate playing it. SCH: Somewhere around middle to play if I understand correctly, never read up on it much as I dislike playing it. SGE: Also around mid to maybe even easy to play, my favorite healer in EW and imo one of the best put together jobs atm. WHM: Often referred to as the easiest healer so surely I should hate it, yes? Well, what's this? I enjoy it about the same as SGE, how odd? Well, that's weird isn't it? It's almost like difficulty and fun are not correlated, but that can't be can it, all the "high end raiders" whine and moan that is the truth on all the forums so it must be true, and of course as only 20% does savage and above, 80% of players hate the game as it is sooo boring! -.-

@iResonate

2 ай бұрын

​@@car-keyscomplexity and difficulty can be fun, but it isn't always true, is my point.

@richardwallis9374

2 ай бұрын

I come from EverQuest where it wasn’t uncommon to start attacking the boss, get up to get a soda and come back to the fight. So all this complaining about all these preconceived notions is bizarre to me. Me press buttons, me have fun….

They should absolutely put the "PCombo" mod in as an option. Not to make things easier, but to decrease button bloat. Your 123 being their own buttons doesn't make them harder in the slightest, it just pointlessly adds to the bloat. If you're on a job like DRK/GNB that may benefit you to do part of the full combo, they can make the button change only happen on the last button (your 3, or 5 in DRGs case) like PCombo does. This way you can still have your 1 as it's own button so you can reset your combo early for those niche situations. I seriously don't understand how anyone could be against the option of this.

Am I the only person when playing summoner that likes to keep their swiftcast available for Rez?

@omensoffate

2 ай бұрын

So you hold it for minutes? 😂

@Aiscence

2 ай бұрын

I'll keep it if I'm close to prog point or a "risky" mechanic, but outside of that, if people die to random shit, I can't expect that.

@SubduedRadical

2 ай бұрын

No, you aren't. Some people do and some people don't. The people that don't hold it just assume everyone doesn't, and can make it seem like no one does since they tend to be the more vocal people in the community. But I suspect it's fairly common to hold it.

@Dedric_Price

2 ай бұрын

Nah bro thats the garuda button ☝️🥸

@PlusOne2Crit

2 ай бұрын

I'm of the opinion that, unless I'm on a healer, if a party member dies that's a them issue. I do not raid as a caster so maybe that's where your perspective comes from, but I will not res any party member unless a healer is dead, or it's like an EX trial and multiple people are down.

tbh Chile has no idea how DNC works. We already have an AOE dance Partner with our 2min dance.

Worth remembering, when they announced beast master they said it would be able to play with other limited jobs. Which means it won't be a fun pokemon style game because it has to be able to go into EXs and raids with BLU. It'll play like a normal job but different, similarly to BLU.

I rly dont get the monk hate. Ive been playing it since 5.0 and every time theyve changed monk its only gotten better. But each time everyone loses their minds 😂 we got several things all monk players have been asking for. So i for one am excited to get my hands on it.

@Richard-sq1ml

2 ай бұрын

Exactly, imagine getting attention in about every expansion and having something new to play with but still being similar.

People that complain about job changes are ridiculous, they think jobs are supposed to play the same for 10+ years or something.

27:00 "The majority of PC players use a mod to automate 123" Bro you trippin. 1:16:20 "damaging gap closers are good, actually" Generally disagree. Given that it is optimal to use them in burst unless you lose a use by holding, the only choice comes up if you can prevent GCD drift by saving a charge. The decision to put an ability in burst or use it outside burst may seem interesting on its face, but the answer is binary. If it gains you a use, it's better. You can do the same thing with an ability like Upheaval. Sometimes, it's optimal to put it outside burst because you gain a use in the phase. That's interesting. Don't tie it to a gap closer though, please. I want to actually use my gap closers for their purpose. Spamming 3 of them in a burst window when I'm standing inside the boss's hitbox is stupid.

@marcusaurelius4777

2 ай бұрын

literally. I never did.

@PlusOne2Crit

2 ай бұрын

I have never even heard a single person talk about using a tool to automate 1,2,3 combos, before this podcast, so I think this "majority of the playerbase" idea is nonsense. Literally did not even know it existed. Regarding damage on gap closers, I'm fine with it being gone. I'm not happy about them gutting the animations on Plunge, Rough divide etc... for a generic dash forward.

I miss Dark Arts DRK Tails

5 GCDs of party haste would be so awful. When jobs want a specific amount of GCDs in their rotation, that would screw with it.

@cablefeed3738

2 ай бұрын

Then you wouldn't stand inside the speeds up your GCD circle

@syaojyn

2 ай бұрын

@@cablefeed3738 then if there's a mechanic that requires me to be in the same spot a picto placed their landscape, my rotation will get thrown off

@laststep56

2 ай бұрын

​@@syaojynthen the pictomancer or maybe the tank have too be careful where they place it or move the boss respectively. Allows for more skillful gameplay that everyone seems to ask for. (Not saying you specifically did or did not, but the community has at least a vocal group who has)

i wasnt down for 1 button combos for literally any reason up until i heard the disability argument. You know what, fair. There's no reason for it not to exist with the multitude of accessibility and customizability controllers already have. Naturally, it should be an opt in thing.

@cablefeed3738

2 ай бұрын

What's wrong with having to press 111 instead of 123, especially since I want more OGCD's given to me

@MellowMink

2 ай бұрын

It also makes it possible for controller players to visibly fit everything onto one window rather than having to switch tabs, and that's including WXMB (32 visible actions), which some jobs like Paladin can't fit into at the moment.

@Aiscence

2 ай бұрын

@@cablefeed3738 Honestly? outside of uptime and not pressing buttons, one of the biggest mistake I see on people that are green and under (still happening in blue): they have broken combo regularly so it's more of a skill than people say, just people don't realize it or think it s not a big deal etc etc. so it's a natural simplification.

Viper look flashy but too easy. Picto looks dumb af imo

Difficulty/fun should come from the fight and not how many “unique” button presses you have to do. Even if your job become “more easy” doesn’t mean the game becomes easy

@OneTallBloke

2 ай бұрын

The issue with that approach toward designing the game, is when you have something like P6S, P7S, E7S, etc. Stinker fights that suck to play, and the job depth isn't there to carry the fight. It's all well and good, when the fights are really fun (eg I really like P12S phase 1, for example), but when the fight is boring mechanically, then you don't have a fun time. By contrast, if there's a low skill floor, high skill ceiling to the jobs (eg, perfoming 'ok' is easy, but mastering the job takes some practice), then content can be made fun, because even if the content is kind of a letdown (again, E7s, P6S etc), you can still get some degree of fun out of your job's gameplay. If nothing else, a training dummy of a fight like P6S can be treated like a literal training dummy, and you can do your full rotation against it and have fun doing so. But if your job does not have a rotation, you're just out of luck for that turn of the tier. As an example, we can look at O6S, versus something like P11S. There is, undeniably, 'more things happening' in P11S than O6S. But many would say they found it more fun to farm O6S than P11S because their job at the time had more going on. Especially as a healer, for example Scholar, you had several DOT timers to manage back then to keep you occupied in content even as devoid of mechanics as O1S. Now, however, the SCH has to press Biolysis once per 30s, and Broil the rest of the time.

@Aiscence

2 ай бұрын

There's a reason most fight mechanics use old terms like protean, dynamo etc. for people that plays since the beginning: Most fights aren't unique and most mechanics even if they put a random triangle on your face it's still a stack. Having a balance of jobs being unique with complexity while doing mechanics is part of the fun and replayability, if by swapping to another job I m still pressing my gcd the same way to build gauge, ogcd on cd and buff/burst every 2 min and the flavour comes by having 8 burst button pressed the exact same way every run instead of pressing 5 times the same one, it's not flavour or uniqueness to me and the replayability isn't there.

@cablefeed3738

2 ай бұрын

​@@OneTallBlokeNo, because if the skill floor is high. People are dragging around a high skill floor job in low incontient. Even though they don't want to do anything high end

@OneTallBloke

2 ай бұрын

@@cablefeed3738 I think you missed the part where I mentioned 'low skill floor, high skill ceiling'. An example I often use (eg on the forums) is SCH. If we had, for example, Broil at 300p, Biolysis at 350p over 30s, Miasma at 340p over 24s, and Shadowflare over 15s, then the 'skill floor' of the class is 'spam Broil', and the 'skill ceiling' is 'perfect refresh timing of every DOT, losing zero ticks of any'. With these listed potencies, the damage difference over 2min between the floor, not using any of your DOTs whatsoever, and the ceiling, the perfect DOT management, is '(4x Biolysis + 5x Miasma + 8x Shadowflare) - 17 Broil', since you'd be using Broils in place of the DOTs. And that gives us '(1400 + 1700 + 2560) - 5100', which ends up with a final result of 560p lost, per 2 minutes. That's less than two Broils. By contrast, ignoring the DOT entirely in Endwalker is a loss of 1620p. If someone were to go into low 'incontinent' with this design of SCH, they could just press Broil and do just fine. But, should someone who wants to push themselves further play SCH in that same duty, they have the option to utilize the DOTs more, and reach for that skill ceiling.

01:23:00 french players are a meme especially new ones lol i swear 80% of them don't know how to read it feels everytime i see some weird stuff and i open the group settings i see it the Forbidden F xD

@Elyakel

2 ай бұрын

As a french i'll tell you a secret Most good french players play the game with the english client so you can't see that we're french xD

@JonathanFantasy

Ай бұрын

As a non french player I can confirm the French client players tend to be terrible

Adding another finisher and “polishing” most jobs is ok I guess but SMN really needed more. Unlike new SMN, most jobs are “complete” at this point. The EW rework was supposed to be the “clean slate” to build upon. Except it looks like they tried to treat it like every other job and just give it a shiny new button for the most part except they forgot to actually make a complete job.

@somnus970

2 ай бұрын

Like mch, drk, and other other rework. They leave them as empty shells of what they use to be

@Aiscence

2 ай бұрын

@@somnus970 this, we heard that so many times before and yet tall they got since then were finishers and skill upgrades :'D

@Dedric_Price

2 ай бұрын

Small indie company, please understand

Not gonna lie, I want to play an MMO with shared responsibility, not a math equation. I find nothing interesting about the min-max part. I want dynamic encounters and fun abilities, not whatever we got since ShB.

a friend called solar bahamut a seahorse and now i cant unsee it solar bahamut looks awful summoners got shafted this expansion

@MogTalk

2 ай бұрын

Thanks...

Like, like, it's like: LITTERALLY, like Like LIKE, ya'know, LiKe?

Good Lord… I must be the one guy they referenced that thinks Picto looks horrible. I am not excited for this job at all.

@cablefeed3738

2 ай бұрын

You're not alone. While I think it looks great. I constantly see that people complain that it looks ugly or too cartoony. Or how dare they be goofy.

@MogTalk

2 ай бұрын

Nah that's fair, but it's also fair to like it

The issue with the new melee gap closer is not the removal of damages, it's that the news animations are shit.

They didnt change much in Endwalker either. The job changes have just been lazy. I would like changes that make stuff more fun or interesting not just to make stuff less punishing or more accessible. The game is already very acessible outside the Mogstation.

My takeaway from the LL was: -viper looks pretty neat -picto is growing on me -healers are just dead forever, as nothing has addressed the fundamental issues of lack of downtime activity and poor/scripted encounter design, and theyre STILL trying to figure out how healers work at all (AST most especially). And any level of class uniqueness/ShB un-dumbening is being pushed back until 8.0 per word of yoshi The team i charge of pvp has proven you absolutely can fit interesting and flavorful class designs in even less actions than the pve versions cant figure out how to do, spread thinly and unevenly across so many damn levels

@XChronicHash

2 ай бұрын

idk why they cant just give healers a full dps kit like 3.0

@SubduedRadical

2 ай бұрын

@@XChronicHash Because that nearly killed healers as a role and caused mass shortages.

@SubduedRadical

2 ай бұрын

I guess it depends on HOW it's done, but SGE looks like it might be doing that? It has a new damage CD with that thing that draws a glyph on the ground, and it has an AOE DoT. IF - and I get it is a big IF, but IF - that is a damage gain over Dosis, which wouldn't be hard (65 potency for 15 seconds or 45 potency for 21 seconds would do it), then it'd be like Miasma 2 and a second single target usable DoT, and the new damage button/glyph thing, if not another Pneuma (healing tool), could be like SB SCH's Shadowflare, a use on CD damage ability. Just those two things would put SGE a foot into SB era SCH. WHM is getting the WAR treatment of x3 cleave when using their burst CD, though only half as often (unless they reduce PoM to 60 seconds...) SCH and AST are just some damage of some kind tied to their 2 min that is single use, but...meh, it's something. Maybe SGE will scratch the itch of people longing for 4.0 SCH, I dunno.

@MellowMink

2 ай бұрын

Healers are super interesting in PVP, and they manage to achieve that even with the surprisingly low action count.

@MellowMink

2 ай бұрын

@@SubduedRadical⁠And now the current design turns many people off from the role because once you get good at the jobs, most of what you end up doing is repeatedly pressing one main DPS button along with an occasional dot, and that's mostly all you get for damage, not counting rare exception spells whose non-comboed presses are so rare that they barely change things up at all.

It was pretty jarring to hear the term "virtue signaling" unironically used early into this conversation.

@marslara

2 ай бұрын

It was kind of strange phrasing but I think I agree with what he was saying tbh It reminds me of the conversation of game difficulty vs accessibility with dark souls that seems to always come up.

@midorixiv

2 ай бұрын

@@marslara discussions about accessibility in games on twitter do always seem to boil down to 'why dark souls should have an easy mode' and never about actual accessibility options

Dude momo needs to read some books or find a thesaurus to stop using like so much 😂

Egis were better I'll die on that hill Also they could've done ark they've already dropped a bunch ff9 stuff

@PlusOne2Crit

2 ай бұрын

ARK is the collector's edition mount and, even if it wasn't, Cruise Chaser is effectively ARK in the game already, back in HW.

Love me some frosty but he really is on another level compared to these guys when it comes to game mechanics and raiding lol He just has a very simplistic view of the game compared to them. Which isnt a bad thing but makes me wish he would just let them speak because at times he interjects or adds input that you can just tell isnt comparable to what is being discussed.

@MogTalk

2 ай бұрын

Do you have a timestamp where the interruption happened and it didn't feel like it was relevant, added to the conversation, or was off?

Frosty: "HW was the best time for jobs in the game and we should go back" Also Frosty: "I hate maintance buffs and dots" Bruh... I get so sick of the HW nostalgia glasses from so many of these content creators. Jobs in HW fucking blew. The jobs were an over bloated mess of halfassed maintance buffs/debuffs, low impact low potency ogcds that had zero interaction with the kit, and a hideously imbalanced meta game that you were absoutely REQUIRED to do if you wanted anything approaching a reasonable clear rate for all but like 3 fights across 12 encounters. HW and its job design ethos are dead and gone. Good riddance.

@giogonzalez821

2 ай бұрын

Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this, makes me feel like I'm crazy for remember HW as an absolute mess of job design and shitty fights. Did people forget that half the fucking jobs were being excluded because the META was so stringent on buff stacking? Do you really want that again? To play a job and be told sorry it's not the right one anymore??

@MogTalk

2 ай бұрын

Bruh, a bit of context. I think it was fun to have unbalance and more in depth jobs as well, then repair it throughout an expansion. But I also think SE should do a better job at giving people options for other jobs instead of grinding it up and finding out it sucks later. Also, I can sympathize with people who have issues with the systems and didn't like Monk. All opinions, doesn't all have to conflict with context.

@SquashDog01

2 ай бұрын

@@MogTalk It was so fun it nearly killed the game a second time. This is what is called a "luxury belief". You have a belief in something (HW Job design and balancing was fun) without having to live in a world where that is still true. The design and balancing of jobs and thier kits were objectively bad. You might have subjectivly liked it, but it was objectivly bad design. It wasnt cohesive, and it was button bloated beyond comfort for "most" jobs, the kits were peice meals of mechanics slapped onto of itself, oh and it was excruciatingly painful for any failstates. Its fine to hold whatever opinion you want on xpac job design, but the cognative dissonance of saying "I preferred HW job design ethos" and "I dislike maintiance buffs/debuffs" is crazy.

@SquashDog01

2 ай бұрын

@@giogonzalez821 The short answer is no, they dont really. People say a lot of things, and its easier to say nonsense than it is to have that contact with reality. Some imbalance is nessecary. We shouldnt want perfectly balanced, because then theres no expression for skill, or unique job mechanics, or any of the other things that makes the game "fun". But uniquness or job identity, should never EVER come at the cost of exclusionary incentives. If any jobs flavor or unique niche or comes at the cost of quite litterally not being able to clear all fights, thats bullshit. And the only time this was true was HW and P8S. Bad design, bad balancing, bad development. If the only way you get your kicks is to be forced into using a 3rd party tool to track server tick rates simply to reliably use an unintended rotation that is almost 100% reliant on said tick rate and you want SE to revert changes to an absolutely awful core deisng that is unintuitive, unexplained, impossible to track--im sorry but you are wrong. Get over it. Also fuck death's design. Stunning how it made it to DT lol...

Square doing the opposite of what I wished has been a big let down i.e Increased optional Skill-Ceiling that won't negatively impact casual players unless its about a tight Enrage at usually Savage/Ultimate as now they need to increase Difficulty/Engagement/Excitement somehow through (Past/Present/Future) PvE Combat Content. Ultimate isn't appealing for everyone. I care not how mechanic vomit everything can be vs Jobs being as expressive & enjoying to play at all contents & all difficulties. Here's a metaphor... Changing a few Cars we loved for so Long to be the best driving experience? isn't as difficult or challenging as Repaving every Path on the Globe... But once Square takes away... - How we can use the brakes - How hard we can accelerate - How hard we can decelerate - Removing Drifting - Replacing my clutch with an Automatic - Making all Cars feel the same when we drive them Then I care not... how amazing Square can make the scenery, nor how many curves and bumps they place on the roads, cause the bottom line is that the Car I loved for so long? isn't exciting. And telling me to go to the Hazardous-Rockslide-Treacherous-Volcanos i.e Just go play Ultimate? doesn't give me back that Car experience I wanted... There's also no proof that Job Simplifications were necessary nor was what held back Fight-Design Devs either as Enrages is about Calculating Numbers. Unless were talking about P8S week one release as their most recent mess up? Nothing in this game is beyond " Just don't die, do mechanics " and " Press your buttons " which is slowly turning more towards spamming the same darn buttons more frequently back to back... The changes to my favorite Job also was not met with Button Bloat consolidation without Combo Compressions which is actually in favor for the Casual players, so that they can actually add more interesting genuinely new skills with compressed depth on fewer buttons for those who wish to Master Jobs and feel like it matters... Unfortunately it isn't. Just another Fell cleave and another Ogi Slash there, add ( or even rehash ) animations and call it a day to make sure players are in awe purely by its aesthetics with no substance. That so far is what I can tell from what is shown, specially to my favorite job Job Simplifications purely makes us rely on the Content to enjoy the Game when not all Content is for everyone? but you are forced to play a Job... all the time 24/7 when engaging with PvE combat Content. So the Jobs better be stellar when I don't do all Content 24/7 but I drive a Job 24/7 !! and in Endwalker to me its not... That's what I want FFXIV to be... when I recommend it to friends? All I can say is that - it has Raiding - Very big RP community - Best story an MMO ever told in my opinion - Slice of Life - Housing if you can get a House - Not the best PVP MMO experience but its not bad But I cannot ever - EVER say that the Job/Class Gameplay is the Nr1 Experience you'll ever have from any PvE MMO you ever played. I can however say its the most balanced PvE MMO I have experienced? not ever the best Job/Class Experience though... That's what I want to change... That's what I wanted the devs to do... But I just can't cause it just isn't... The Jobs became more mindless in EW. More simplifications, more homogenizations. It has made me the least excited for an XIV Expansion. I want to brag about it to everyone that the Job/Class Gameplay is so good no MMO can rival it.... But I just can't... and that is the biggest let down for me, mhm

Frosty out here having a whole convo about job changes and then DEI sneaks its face in. Lmao

@marslara

2 ай бұрын

@@loopywatwat They were talking about the whole single button combo thing and then it turned into accessibility vs "virtue signaling" and who determines the difference. As in when a change is made to actually help with accessibility and when a change is made because people who the problem doesn't even apply to think it will help. it was worded kind of weird and it's definitely a sticky conversation but I think I agree with what sindalf was saying.

It's annoying when casuals demand these changes for jobs they play like once a month in Duty Roulette. They don't want to main SMN, MNK, BLM,etc... they just want to infest like parasites and destroy something that's good for no reason. Why remove transpose lines from BLM? I never did it, but it was something high end players liked. Optimal Drift for monk was great, so why kill it? Why give WHM a dash when they have lillies for movement that are dps neutral? Why remove delaying life cycles for DRG when it was something that you could plan around? Positionals? You used to NOT get the added effect for messing up a positional, now, it's just like melees are red tanks lmfao. Actual lunacy. And NOW they remove the failure point of overcapping resources. WHY?

@cablefeed3738

2 ай бұрын

That's not why summoner got changed. It got changed because they needed an entry point job for ARR And they already had to change summoner, because they don't like dots anymore because the issue it has on their old ass code

@marslara

2 ай бұрын

It honestly doesn't annoy me that some casuals want this for jobs, I think that misrepresents the issue. The real problem is the dev team deciding what's best is to take every job and cater to a player base that would play the job regardless at the end of the day. For some reason I feel like so many games go down this route of making a game more enticing to "casual" players knowing full well they will literally just play the exact same way anyway. A lot of teams seem to find a hard balance of lowering the entry but keeping or raising the ceiling. Instead they usually just lower the ceiling to make the variance in performance less obvious. Not to mention this game has so many jobs you can play, I cannot for the life of me understand the obsession with taking any job with some level of difficulty and simplifying it for people who don't play it when there's plenty of alternatives in each role. I suck at monk, so I only every use it for normal content, at no point in my life have I wished they would dumb it down just so I could play it knowing there's like 6 other melees I could play instead. It's not like you need to be good at every job for normal content either which is the most annoying part of this. The people this "simplification" of jobs is for don't even really benefit from this. If they cared that much about doing well with the job they would learn how to play the job, it's not like they're punished in normal content for just doing whatever rotation they feel like. There are people still not using aoe in dungeons at level 90, them not knowing how to refresh their buffs is the least of their worries. This is like the best example of a game that would benefit from job diversity in terms of having difficult jobs because you have so many options.

@midorixiv

2 ай бұрын

I think the main problem is just that whenever people have a complaint about a minor issue, SE takes the nuclear option to address it. Like people complain about the debuff cap on bosses being shit for dot jobs so they just remove a bunch of dots, or melees complain about E6s so they make boss hitboxes the size of the arena etc

@marcusaurelius4777

2 ай бұрын

@@cablefeed3738 I understand the dot thing but there was a severe down grade from smn being known from being a hard job to Yoshi p admitting summoner is too easy to be buffed to do more damage.

@user-qm4oc1vc2y

2 ай бұрын

You are wasting your breath. The dev team decided after midas that the gameplay needs to be ass and the game has now been infested with losers who demand the game needs 1 button gameplay because accessibility. Nothing is gonna happen in 8.0 that will make the classes play better. It's time to move to another game unless you want to be miserable or do pvp.