What are your top 3 favorite land MDFCs?

@W4ngatang

3 жыл бұрын

bala ged recovery; khalni ambush; malakir rebirth (runners up: silundi vision; sejiri shelter)

@josieraider

3 жыл бұрын

1: bala ged recovery 2: agadeems awakening 3: sea gate restoration

@ThunderousChemQ27

3 жыл бұрын

Bala Ged Recovery Valakut Awakening Sea Gate Restoration All auto includes for their respective colors imo.

@AP4rk3C4r

3 жыл бұрын

1. Valakut Awakening 2. Bala Ged Recovery 3. Glasspool mimic I do not much like Seagate Restoration simply because it only guarantees drawing 1 card even if it does get rid of your handsize limit, I feel like the floor is too low for a 7 mana spell.

@PatNave_

3 жыл бұрын

1. Tangled Florahedron 2. Valakut Awakening 3. Turntimber Symbiosis

I like that Tomer is worried about bala ged recovery being too expensive at 3 dollars but the other cards are bad because they dont work well with the 100 dollar cabal coffers

@mattduchan251

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nyundaa that’s not his argument though

@dxdraiba7604

2 жыл бұрын

In case you are curious the reprint of coffers is a hair above 20 bucks now

@cedarsapling

Жыл бұрын

Price don't matter when a homie got a printer or a pen

Listen up algorithm, everyone needs to see this.

@greyderpanite3344

3 жыл бұрын

Retweet

@TheSpiritombsableye

3 жыл бұрын

I'll tag my sister in this. She'll totally care. 🙄

@HumassiveTuba

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheSpiritombsableye good to see your family playing magic

@TheSpiritombsableye

3 жыл бұрын

@@HumassiveTuba, they don't.

Before I've even watched this, I wanna say that I have fewer than 0 complaints about these super super long episodes. Please don't worry too much about keeping them short!

Tangled Florahedron works the reverse of every other MDFC. Every other card, you’ll play as a land on turn 2, and maybe use it as its spell on later turns. Florahedron hits the table as a creature on 2, and as a land on later turns. I think that’s where the confusion comes from.

@MasterDoctorBenji

3 жыл бұрын

But late it's far more important to have an untapped land late. Playing a tapped land on one is fine. On five when you want to cast your golos is painful

@vurtruvious5280

2 жыл бұрын

@@MasterDoctorBenji why would you have a golos?

@MasterDoctorBenji

2 жыл бұрын

@@vurtruvious5280 why wouldn't you? Washing machine tribal? Cha-ching

@51gunner

3 ай бұрын

@@MasterDoctorBenji It's a banned card now.

Not every card in the mono black list needs to fuel Coffers. You need stuff to throw all that excess black mana into, and an X spell that can get tons of creatures back is a decent way to do it, and it's a land when you need it.

@Nocturne989

3 жыл бұрын

@James Black Who said run only 33 swamps? Not me.

@burnsboy101

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nocturne989 sarcasm mate

@pedroinacio_maths

2 жыл бұрын

Also Urborg

@baconsir1159

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I feel like 20-25 basics is enough for a coffers list imo. If I have 4-5 swamps, coffers, and a non-swamp I’m not particularly upset.

TLDR for video: 3 of Tomers friend worry for their friend who doesn't understand why Ondu Inversion is good, but somehow loves Malakir Rebirth

@AgonalRhythm

3 жыл бұрын

Given how often Tomer incites the others to single his commander out, this actually makes total sense

@Aronia55

3 жыл бұрын

I also love Malakir Rebirth but that's no reason not to like Inversion

@AgonalRhythm

3 жыл бұрын

I don't disagree, it's just funny to see how their playstyle and experience come out in their ratings

@seasikberry7120

3 жыл бұрын

I think the card he was most right about against the others was rebirth and the most wrong he was against everyone else was Ondu Inversion

@tuckerresor8815

3 жыл бұрын

I think in general Tomer rates cards with low floors and really high ceilings higher than cards with reasonable floors and not super high ceilings. I also think that he's wrong lol.

The one thing I've learned from this video is that Tomer loves Basic Lands more than I thought was possible.

@swiftdragonrider

3 жыл бұрын

basic lands are the mega nuts. untapped lands are broken and commander players should run way more of them.

@Ixidora

2 жыл бұрын

Someone put the fear of Blood Moon in Tomer.

@BarginsGalore

6 ай бұрын

@@swiftdragonriderthey were ranked as the 20th best card by channelfireball for a reason

I love playing MDFCs, and I also love using the Ravnica bounce lands to bounce MDFCs I’ve used as lands in the early game back to my hand to use as spells later. But I’m also a super greedy player

I cant wait for tomer vs the rest of the crew for ondu inversion.

@paulpallo5513

3 жыл бұрын

The reaction to listening to each other member's top 3 MDFCs at the end was beautiful

@zeroisnine

3 жыл бұрын

Board wipes are overrated imo. But if I had the view of them as essential, I would probably side with the S's or at least an A.

@adammorin2955

3 жыл бұрын

Isn’t planar cleansing just better then ondu inversion

@qwormuli77

2 жыл бұрын

@@adammorin2955 Multiple cards are better than Ondu Inversion; White has a cavalcade of similar effects. The thing with OU is that it's also a land early and doesn't clog up your initial grip.

@adammorin2955

2 жыл бұрын

@@qwormuli77 eh i still don’t like ou i rather use hour of revelation or planar cleansing tbh

Setting the context for the ranks /and/ then also going through each person's own opinion on MDFCs. 10/10!!! Adds great context ontop of y'all's great discussions!

Charm tier list needs to be a thing now.

@atk9989

3 жыл бұрын

It is.

Seth saying kazuuls fury combos with his song mad treachery was golden and made my day

"C: is average" "C means I'm not happy casting this" Tomer is apparently unhappy casting the average magic card

@Niuttuc

3 жыл бұрын

Considering the amount of cards made for limited and only playable in limited, that's accurate.

@keep7smiling

3 жыл бұрын

on a S/A/B/C/D-scale B is average, C is pretty bad.

@ComfyDents

3 жыл бұрын

Well... I won't put a grizzly bear in my commander deck...

@sebastianoparenti3536

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. In commander we have every card bar a few bans. The average card is avvs, I want to play good cards

@baconsir1159

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, yeah. Me too. When you have access to almost every magic card ever printed, average is only good with high synergy

Malakir rebirth is by far the mdfc I’ve cast the most obvious s tier. I mainly play syr Konrad and he always draws hate and this is clutch time and time again

@ComfyDents

3 жыл бұрын

Ah! I see you are a man of culture aswell! :-D Malakir Rebirth is actually usefull in EDH and not overpriced as most of them.

@qwormuli77

2 жыл бұрын

Most similar effects cost 2 with a negligible upside. This, with a minimal downside of two life has all the relevant text in one mana in addition of being an early land. And it's a literally one mana land-slottable effect that could be argued to have an effect with the highest chance of winning you the game. One could say, that the rate of game where you wouldn't have lost with a timely spot removal is directly proportional to games where that spot removal steals the game from you. With that, this is literally a 1 mana MDFC with a comparable effect to Hagra Mauling. My most used MDFC for sure (even if it's a result of black being my most played color, but still).

I have not played EDH since Zendikar but Seth, Richard, and Crim all legitimately sold me on Ondu Inversion

"The rate on Sea Gate is bad, you're only drawing 1 or 2" I need to see this man's Blue-Inclusive Hellbent deck, because I don't think I've ever seen a blue-inclusive deck go down to an empty hand, much less on their own accord.

Valakut Awakening and Bala Ged Recovery are the only two MDFCs I think literally every on color deck should run, so I think those are my top two and in a tier of their own.

@connoringram4948

3 жыл бұрын

I run a muldrotha primal surge deck that doesnt want this cus its a spell.(if only its front side was the land) Also have an animorph deck that uses green warden and den protector so i already have good enough gy recursion in a deck that doesnt need it. I gotta 5c elemental deck that can use horde of notions the white cavalier an revilark for gy recursion. My mono G omnath usta run it but i cut it cus of being a tap land. That deck is filled with threats so instead of recuring one its better to jus draw into new ones and i jus run the big green return everything you have no max hand size instead. My merren deck does gy recursion better an wants creatures so it doesnt make the cut in all green decks. I think bala ged fits in any deck that could use gy recursion but isnt dedicating slots. I run it in half my green decks, If i had more of the valakut one i would run that in every red deck its jus a good rate. Malakir rebirth is the one im most happy about casting, the blue clone i never play as a land and the white protection and deal dmg based on creatures i do run in all my mono white decks, but if you add any other color ill cut em. Will never cut ondu inversion though. I play aggro decks and that is the only boardwipe i will run in so many decks. In 5c elemental it is the only board wipe and cus its a land i can crop rotation then play it from ancient greenwarden and then use living twister or bouce land to cast it making it recurable even though ive never needed cast it i love havin the option. I dont agree with the rating system cus no land is good enough to go into every deck except the red draw one and debatly ondu. Every other land is good to great in most decks or jus not impactfull enough.

Is that what we’re going to do today? Fight?

@shinsua_

3 жыл бұрын

Khalni Ambush? On a Tuesday?

@shammerHammer

3 жыл бұрын

One of the best quotes from that show. Red Foreman is a legend.

I'm with Seth, Agadeem's Awakening is and S tier card. It can either be a land or a reanimation spell. I think the group is a little caught up on the either or instead of the flexibility. I play it in Muldrotha. I think Tomer is correct in his assessment on Malakir Rebirth, but I think he's off on Emeria's Call and Ondu Inversion. While I don't think Ondu Inversion is S tier but it's definitely A tier. Richard definitely explained it well. It doesn't necessarily have to sit in your hand, you can play it as a land. The key to the MDFC's is their flexibility.

I'm mostly with Tomer on the ratings. I think many people greatly underestimate how bad tapped lands are.

Richard on Tangled Florahedron: ...5C included, every deck. Just tossing fuel on the flames.

The florahedron is actually more than just a rampant growth or tapped Land. In golgari Decks that count the number of creatures in graveyards this increases the count ( Izoni, Jarad, Songs of the Damned , Splinterfright, golgari gravetroll, spider spawning , mausoleum secrets and soo much moooore!) . It is the only mdfz I’m actually playing ...

@christianmiller4422

3 жыл бұрын

Tapped lands dont die. There are better mana dorks than this

@Sinistra359

2 жыл бұрын

I play it in my sidisi deck and it feels good when I mill it lol

@laytonjr6601

2 ай бұрын

Not playing Bala Ged recovery in golgari? It's the same mana cost as eternal witness (the most played green card in EDH)

I legit laughed out loud seeing the title for this, this will be interesting...

You should add a disclaimer when someone badmouths Eternal Witness guys!!! LOL, I had a mini heart attack

@thuggishcone1392

3 жыл бұрын

Ano! Being a body is good enough without any synergies.

The wubrg thing didn't bother me.... until Tomer mentioned it and now I just can't stop thinking about it

This is my favorite podcast because they shoot for an hour and I can see them doing a 3 hour show on accident.

Something I'd like to mention about the "getting a Llanowar elf with turntimber symbiosis", if you dig Seven cards and the best creature was the elf, I'd be at least happy about the fact that the rest goes to the bottom. I traditionally don't run much noncreature heavy green decks, so pitching all those cards away has some advantage to it

Tomer: There's a time and place for MDFCs Seth, Richard, Crim: But we like them. Audience: Tomer is the villain.

This is fantastic, I was just wandering which one should I put into my deck. This video is right on time! :D

@Vrael95

3 жыл бұрын

What do you think is the healthy number of basic lands in a two color commander decks?

Props to Tomer for continuing to push one of the best Commander cards: Hour of Revelation. It's a massive upgrade from Planar Cleansing, which I consider the "base" for that effect, and I need to see more people playing it. Keep fighting the good fight! With that being said, Tomer, you are dead wrong about Ondu Inversion. I need you to understand: I would play this even in your worst case scenario in a deck with Emeria Shepherd, Emeria the Sky Ruin, Strata Scythe, etc, etc. It is that important to have an answer to an otherwise unanswerable board state. You're right insofar as this card is not as good as Hour of Revelation (one less white mana, though, for the record), and you're right: i wouldn't replace any of the other "Planar Cleansing" cards for this. I would, however, replace a basic plains every. single. time. Is this card better than Hour of Revelation? No, of course not. But it's not competing against Hour of Revelation. It's competing against the 37th land in your Commander deck. The downside of coming into play tapped as a land *is worth* the ability for it to save a game of Commander in the lategame. I know you said that you've had many games where it sits in your hand and you're unable to cast it, but that's not a valid criticism *if* it's a part of your mana base; in that circumstance, a basic plains would have been just as worthless. The key metric in such a scenario is whether a land entering tapped will cost you the game more times than casting Ondu Inversion will win you the game. I assert that's a trade worth making every time. I've seen you run Guildgates in your budget lists because the mana fixing is more important than coming into play tapped, a decision that I agree with. This is similar: it's worth playing a bad land because it solves a more important problem. Edit: To add on, cards like Malakir Rebirth and Tangled Florahedron are cards that I would count in the "spells" section of the deck. Their front sides are good enough that I would want to cast them as a real spell, and they then have the added upside of being a land if you're mana screwed. Ondu Inversion is the opposite: a card I wouldn't want as a "spell" in my deck, because there are more efficient spells than it, but a card that I count as better than another land in nearly just about every deck that has white.

@rafaelbarrera3601

3 жыл бұрын

I agree 💯

@qwormuli77

2 жыл бұрын

While I agree with most of Tomer's takes here, IMO this is correct. And the best part about OU is that it's a planar cleansing that doesn't clog up your starting hand. Still not a complete auto-include, but a good option to consider for every white EDH deck.

@Sinistra359

2 жыл бұрын

This! I've top decked an ondu inversion and it has helped me get back in the game, whereas a plains would not.

@jadegrace1312

Жыл бұрын

If tangled florahedron is good enough you'd want to cast it as a real spell, you're playing some shit decks.

I think everyone had some good points in this video. The effectiveness of these lands definitely depends on each individual deck and strategy. Great video!

loved the video would love to see more structure arguments like this, was extremely fun

Seth: so its another hull breacher Crim: I play other creatures Me: yeah like notion thief

At some point they will need to embrace the fact that this podcast is just 2 hours long...

@outshimed

3 жыл бұрын

I watch it at 1.5x

@Sinistra359

2 жыл бұрын

Even if it's three hours long I'd still listen it through lol

honestly tangled florahedron is one that you have to play to see how good it is. I slotted it in on a whim to try it out and it's always great!

@keep7smiling

3 жыл бұрын

I have tried Florahedron many times and it was always beyond terrible for me. F tier.

@ExKiwi-yw8er

3 жыл бұрын

@@keep7smiling you didn't give any context for playgroups or deck types so i really don't know what to tell ya bud.

@jadegrace1312

Жыл бұрын

it's literally bad lmao

@randoomday1520

11 ай бұрын

Compared to nature's lore i would say it's strictly worse, except when you have fewer than 2 lands in the opening hand or you need a creature for some reason

@ExKiwi-yw8er

11 ай бұрын

@@randoomday1520 its been quite a while but i do still play the little guy. if your deck is playing mana dorks, generally you have a handful of ways to draw cards off of them so they're not dead draws in the late game. better than a land in that case. plus florahedron is great in basically any opening hand imo, i like the little bit of consistency it adds to creature/ramp focused green lists. that being said it's not good enough for most multicolor decks, you obvi have access to better mdfcs in that case.

I live for Seth's face during Tangled Florahedron

Probably one of the most important episodes, given how often it is referenced in clash

The moment we've all been waiting for. Tangled Florahedron = S teir or we riot!

@PatNave_

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed!

@kidscottii3957

3 жыл бұрын

no

@christianmiller4422

3 жыл бұрын

Disagree

@darrkhunter96

3 жыл бұрын

100%!

@ericsalisbury3583

3 жыл бұрын

Any one mana mana dork is better and if not basic forest is better. Its f tier bad.

This is one of my favorite episodes. Rewatching it because of the break.

Possible Topic: Is it better to incentivize or force an opponent to do something you want? It’d be a deeper dive on politics. Incentivize gives them resources and they can not but keeps their graces. Inversely forcing leaves them no choice which can build resentment. As a player which would you rather do to another player? Why? When? Etc. Another way to term it would be are Threats better or worse than Deals?

This was a Lovely banter episode. More plz! :)

I'm writing this comment as I listen: So, I may be missing an implication by the statement... but everyone does not have Cabal Coffers. Maybe in MODO, but otherwise no that card is expensive as hell. I do wanna say that Urborg exists and is generally put into any deck running black which is far more financially doable than CC. It should also be noted that as powerful as CC is, you don't need them for mono-black to keep up.

When you love Malakir Rebirth & Ondu Inversion equally 😵‍💫

To me, Ondu Inversion would be an A. I have had instances where I need a wipe effect on T5-6 and where I had 7 mana and only that card as a land which made for pretty awkward situations. Since its effect is 8 mana, I wouldn't replace a land with it in my deck as well, so although I believe it is very good, there are a few times where I wouldn't put it in my deck but most of them will have it. Edit: Oh and for my top 3. I'd say 1-Valakut's Awakening, 2-Bala Ged Recovery, 3-Ondu Inversion (sorry Tomer)

So Seth likes to imagine magical Christmas land. Richard is seemingly level headed but loves things that are generically powerful to improve his jank tribes. Crim likes instants. And Tomer likes good cards.

I feel like a part of Tomer not being as willing to run MDFC lands is the fact that he is usually brewing budget decks and card efficiency is much more important in a budget list, tapped lands and expensive spells have a bigger impact on the curve/spells per turn in a budget list compared to a nonbudget list.

@MTGGoldfishCommander

3 жыл бұрын

(Tomer here) I'm not averse to MDFCs, and my average ranking of them is in line with Richard / Crim. The big difference between me and others in the group is I treat all of the non-mythic MDFCs as spells, not lands. Therefore they compete for a nonland slot with cards that perform similar roles. That's how I rate them.

@zeroisnine

3 жыл бұрын

@@MTGGoldfishCommander I think it's not super accurate to put it solely one way or another. Like if you replace one spell for a more expensive spell, you might also replace a spell for a land. Deck building is complex, and I think a lot of these grades are a bit biased because of the framework adopted that is more juat for theory, than practice.

@qwormuli77

2 жыл бұрын

@@MTGGoldfishCommander While MDFCs can't reliably be neither, I'd consider that spell sided approach as the more relevant method. On the land slide every MDFC is a literally strictly worse basic and who would ever play that? The excuse for playing them comes from the spell side and the spell side must be relevant enough to excuse the inclusion. -This post was made by the Malakir Rebirth gang.

I’m surprised they never mentioned the downside of Sea Gate Restoration, you need to have an already decently sized hand (3+) in order to get real value from it. Casting a 7 mana draw two cards is pretty rough

@clrl936

3 жыл бұрын

Well, still better than top decking a land on late game.

I mean I dont see why Ondu is bad, but I 100% would not have it as an auto include, which is what this tier list equates to S. So I would give it an A Top 3 for me: Valakut Awakening Bala ged recovery Seagate restoration

@Ixidora

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with everything except the Seagate restoration, I feel like Valakut Awakening is very nearly better than Restoration in every way, it's only catch is you lose the old cards which, in my experience, I didn't want anyway. Bala Ged Recovery is just the best MDFC. Regardless of how good MDFC's are I can't understand why they insist on counting these as lands, why would you reduce your "Land count" rather than treat them as spells and have them actually be extra lands to guarantee your colors/curve?

I actually run "Tangled Florahedron" in my 5 color Niv-Mizzet reborn deck, which was built on a somewhat restricted budget. It does work surprisingly well! It's not the single most optimized card, but it does put in a lot of work.

I struggle loving Agadeem's Awakening because most reanimator decks are trying to cheat in large mana value creatures, so it's difficult to pay enough into X for it to be worth it a lot of the time. However, I think it's a great card in specific decks that use low mana value creatures and that gain value from recurring them (as seen in standard with Lurrus + rogues)

@mattbarr6732

3 жыл бұрын

I'm running it in Syr Konrad without any qualms, but it's not good enough for my Toshiro deck because the loss of a basic swamp is a real cost for a tonne of the ramp (Extraplanar Lens, Crypt Ghast, even Lily of the Dark Realms etc.) and utility (Tendrils of Agony, Defile) cards.

@qwormuli77

2 жыл бұрын

Any deck with sacrifice and cheap value creatures value Agadeem's. And because I consider almost every deck with a creature presence to be a deck that need sacrifice outlets, Agadeem's is pretty deece. It's only a shame that it's such an expensive card in a playgroup that prefers budget decks.

@baconsir1159

2 жыл бұрын

Card's a GOAT in Aristocrat. Instead of cheating in cards I always seem to be at X = 4. Ends up with something like Viscera, Zulaport, Ophiomancer, and Simulacrum. There are so many great 1-4 CMC creatures in aristocrats.

im fully supportive of tomers position with Ondu Inversion,

MDFC's power is that you never flood AND you never drought/screw when drawing them. Flood and drought are the most feels bad aspect of mtg. MDFC's are simultaneously letting you play a spell while being a spell to play. Taking a hit to quality to ensure consistency means a smoother over all game and will pad out your win percentage constantly.

The idea that somehow a board wipe/tap land is worse than a Plains because it doesn't trigger Emeria or you get one less Mana from Caged Sun is factually absurd. The notion that you'll never get that last Plains is nuts, you'll get there eventually, meanwhile this Ondu Inversion could save the day. It's a no brainer.

@crocie

Жыл бұрын

The land enters the battlefield tapped and the spell costs too much :(

My take on Ondu Inversion: if I'm casting an 8 mana boardwipe, I want it to be able to leave me ahead of the rest of the table, rather than leave everyone at parity. Maybe it could be worth half a land slot and half a spell slot, but most of the time I don't think it would make the cut for me.

@atk9989

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly my thoughts. Plus i have a mardu deck that I kept a 4 mana hand and then went 10 turns with only 1 more land. And I have won on turn 9 with only 5 lands and 0 rocks. Sometimes you get really mana screwed so don't always count on 8 mana.

Common card draw cards ranked when?

Tangled Florahedron draws cards off of guardian project, great henge, beastcaller, etc. etc. it’s definitely good in heavy green decks.

I count them as a spell, and use them only in game if I’m missing a land drop. Spell with land drop fixing

@kaszael

3 жыл бұрын

Pretty much the same here but when building a deck, I view them as half a mana source.

I evaluate almost all MDFCs as flood insurance. When you draw them late, they’ll do a thing instead of being a land. Cards like Sea Gate Restoration and Valakut Awakening, then, are pretty mopey. Cards like Hagra Mauling and Shatterskull Smashing, on the other hand, affect the board in a big way. Silundi Vision > Sea Gate Restoration in any deck with a decent amount of instants and sorceries. It’ll at least dig 6 deep for something good. Sea Gate Restoration is gonna draw one or two cards at best 99% of the time.

@ballzock1039

2 жыл бұрын

Sea Gate Restoration actually does so much work for me. I draw like 4+ cards at the least and I get an emblem like effect that allows me to keep my hand. And it can come in untapped.

The real question is, "Where does Hedron Archive land on this list?"

I enjoyed the discussion, and just to also reiterate something that was eluded to early on in the video. A deck should only have so many tapped lands, so sure, these offer versatility, but outside of budget/specific decks, you don't want more than ~6-7 (~20% of your mana base) enters tapped lands, so these also compete against your utility land slots a lot of the time. Top 3 MDFCs: 1) Sea Gate Restoration 2) Bala Ged Recovery 3) Agadeem's Awakening (with a 3.5 of Khalni Ambush) And personally I think Khalni Ambush is a lot better than Kabira Takedown in letter grade. You don't always need the biggest creature on board for Ambush to have value, an Acidic Slime, Ambush Viper, Hornet Queen token, Ice-Fang Coatl, any creature with Ohran Frostfang on the battlefield after the damage step, etc., can just as easily be thrown under the bus to kill something. Yes, it's a 2 for 1, but in mono green the main way to get rid of creaturess if with a fight effect, so I'd rather 2 for 1 myself if it gets something off the board that will either kill me or have the opponent win the game. The only saving grace of Takedown is that it can target planeswalkers, but if you have a lot of creatures to kill one, you also can most likely swing through to just damage it directly. Though with my playstyle I'd rather have 1-several meduim-large threats vs. many little ones. Plus green only really has beast within and fight effects, white has much better options for single target creature removal. On Tangled Florahedron: I'm in the early planning stages of a 99 creature/land, Ruic Thar, deck, with hopefully a landfall subtheme, and I don't think this will make the cut. I'd rather play a 3 mana wood elf effect, than 2 mana for a bad dork/land. I basically want a dork that taps for 1 mana to be at 1 CMC one that can tap for more than 1 mana at 2 CMC, and a land ramp creature at 3 CMC. I mean there's at least 6 1 CMC dorks that tap for 1 mana, and many better ones at 2 mana that Tangled Florahedron shouldn't ever make the cut, right? And that's ignoring every green ramp spell, so it shouldn't be a contest. I will say, you did forget to mention that this could maybe go in elemental tribe decks to get more risen reef value. 1 CMC: Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Boreal Druid, Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, Llanowar Elves, Sakura-Tribe Scout 2 CMC: Bloom Tender, Devoted Druid, Gyre Sage, Llanowar Scout, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Priest of Titania, Whisperer of the Wilds 3 CMC: Dawntreader Elk, Elvish Rejuvenator, Farhaven Elf, Llanowar Tribe, Rishkar Peema Renegade, Selvala Heart of the Wilds, Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Somberwald Sage, Wood Elves, Yavimaya Dryad That's 24 creatures, that should all be, in most cases, better than Florahedron. On Ondu Inversion: 8 mana is a lot, so I wouldn't put this at S tier, and I already run ~5 board wipes in my decks and ~8 targeted removal, plus in my few decks, I don't run enough plains to replace one with Ondu Inversion. Plus with an average of 35 lands, I don't like the idea of it taking up a utility land slot. Maybe in decks I run more basics I'd be willing to try it out to have a 6th board wipe in a deck, but I've yet to use Hour of Revelation, so I don't think this would make the cut. In my 2 decks that contain white, I don't really have the space to fit Ondu in. Atraxa, Praetor's Voice big creature counters deck (only runs 3 basic plains): Black Sun's Zenith, Merciless Eviction, Toxic Deluge, Cyclonic Rift, Bane of Progress Ghired, Conclave Exile lots of tokens deck (only runs 1 basic plain): Austere Command, Hour of Reckoning, Martial Coup, Phyrexian Rebirth, "Aura Shards" (close enough to a wipe in a creature/token deck)

The content we needed

I love this crew so much!!! Amazing!

I was really medium on tangled floral, but the anology that it is a bad rampant growth with a land stapled to the back is giving me second thoughts on it. It may be better than I initially thought, I may need to give it a shot.

It honestly never occurred to me that an experienced player would look at the MDFCs and count them as a spell rather than a land or at least a fraction of a land. I don't know how to prove/disprove such a thing, but every fiber of my being tells me that this is objectively wrong. Like, obviously so.

@ms.sysbit5511

3 жыл бұрын

Tapped lands have a real cost. If you cut lands for them, you lower the chances you cast them as spells. That reduces them to worse lands. Modality has its limitations. I count them as spells because, if in the deck, I want to cast them more than 3/4s of the time. Cutting lands for them is greedy deck building. If you wouldn’t want to cast it most of the times, why run a spell and worse land in the first place?

@rafaelbarrera3601

3 жыл бұрын

Ms. Sysbit, depending on playgroup, commander is generally a slower format so that argument is correct but I would say the cost is somewhat lower than other formats.

Tomer cannot fathom why someone would exchange a plains for a tapped land for the option to boardwipe sometimes. How is this possible.

MDFCs are great in mono and some two-colour (Commander) decks. I always restrict the number of tapped lands I put into decks, and these would be competing for those slots. And those slots already have cards like cycle lands, bounce lands, Boseiju, Colonnade, etc. fighting for a spot. I can definitely respect the line of thinking of them just as spells with a little upside, though. But they're still competing with much better cards for those slots. EDIT: I am super curious what cards Richard and Seth would cut for the Florahedron. There's a HUGE difference between land ramp and mana dorks.

Quick question about valakut awakening. I could be wrong but dont you declare how many cards you "cycle" as it resolves? Couldnt you just say 0 if someone flashes in hullbreacher? But if I'm wrong please correct me😊.

I agree with how Seth value highly the MDFC to S or A, sometimes people forget that MDFC is also a land it will never be a dead card in hand.

1) Makalir Rebirth 2) Balaged Recovery 3) Emeria's Call

@samarbrander981

3 жыл бұрын

Hard agree here

There's a few of these MDFCs that are really obviously archetype/mechanical support for ZNR Limited - Akoum Warrior, Umara Wizard, Blackbloom Rogue, Skyclave Cleric: they're all here to support the Party mechanic of the set, and a bit of the color pair's effects (Blue/Black had a Rogues & Mill theme, making Blackbloom a decent enabler). The Mythics are all pretty interesting, and I definitely love the glasspool mimic, malakir rebirth, and the whole mythic cycle.

"Charms are fantastic, how dare you" - peak Tomer :D

It's so adorable when Tomer asks SETH for help with pronunciation... OF ALL PEOPLE, SETH!

1) Bala Ged Recovery 2) Valakut Awakening 3) Glasspool Mimic I think 1 and 2 are very obviously the best to me. I struggled to decide on a 3rd, so I picked a card I think is very good and cool. Costed appropriately and although it is mostly limited to creature strategies, it fits any creature strategy.

@baconsir1159

2 жыл бұрын

I'd definitely put Malakir Rebirth up there for me, at least 3rd. Always absurdly useful.

spikefield hazard turns a regular death to an exile effect, at instant speed... the spikefield doesn't have to actually kill the creature as long as it was dying already. seems a little underrated

Zof consumption to the moooon!!!! Should be upgraded now with the stats lol. Thanks for all the hard work and content u guys do

You can't get blown out by Hullbreacher with Valakut Awakening. You choose the cards you put into your library as the spell resolves.

@keep7smiling

3 жыл бұрын

you always draw 1 minimum tho

Tangled Florahedron is good in Scepter Combo decks that have green in them (like Tasigur the Golden Fang) because mana dorks are part of its win con. This gives you an extra dork in a land slot. Niche, but really good there.

Idk if it's cuz I often run the guild bounce lands (and other return land effects in some decks) but I LOVE the MDFC lands because they can be a land early and I hold a bounce land so I can just pick up my Ondu Inversion or my Song-Mad Treachery to swing the situation.

This podcast is the ravings of a mad man and that mad man is Tomer!

So Seth likes to imagine magical Christmas land. Richard is seemingly level headed but loves things that are generically powerful to improve his hand tribes. Crim likes instants. And Tomer likes good cards.

I play Agadeem's in Orah clerics. It is invaluable. Need to reanimate stuff? Gotcha bud. Someone Bojuka bogged your yard? Still a land.

@ms.sysbit5511

3 жыл бұрын

This. The fact a reanimation spell is not dead is insane upside. It’s a game winner and imo the only S tier MDFC.

I wholly agree with tomer for once on malakir rebirth cards absurd just getting to essentially free roll a protection spell that’s also only one mana is amazing.

I wonder how you guys would rate mana rocks like dreamstone hedron, hedron archive, and mind stone.

So here's what I would say about mdfcs if you put them in a spell slot with the intention to cast them as a spell they also function as a land when you need the land. If you build your deck with enough lands and treat them as spells they're just redundancy which is always good

Malakir rebirth is also one of the only ways black flickers, like kayas. So if you need some kind of flicker support say for kardur, it's great

I used to underrate Shatterskull Smashing, up until someone played an Ethersworn Canonist across from my Veyran deck. I forgot it was in my hand because it was flipped to the back from the previous game, was relieved when I realized lol. Even if it’s inefficient, these spells get the job done

What I like most about MDFC lands is that I can play them early in the game as tap lands then bounce them (in a multi color deck) with bounce lands, or use other means to bring them back to my hand for spells if needed.

@jimharris5320

2 жыл бұрын

Also in my experience I count them as a spell or land depending on if I would want it sitting in my hand at the start of the game and be willing to wait to cast it.

This topic might be one of the most controversial topics in magic after the reserved list

Once again Tomer's brain is casting Worm Harvest

@Papaconstantopoulos

3 жыл бұрын

Lmfaoo

Thanks guys :D, i think mdfs are very reliant on the powerlevel of your decks. If you play guildgates, you might as well rank all of them S tear

I think it’s interesting that Tomer sees the cards as spells, rather than lands with upside like the rest of the crew. I’m curious where the disconnect comes in. The reasoning is sound: as a potential spell in your deck, you should imagine the situation of needing them to be cast, and what those spells do for you game plan. Absolutely makes sense. That being said, if used conservatively (especially compared to Seth, who sees them primarily as strictly lands with upside), I feel like MDFCs are generally best viewed as a hybrid of the two, or as a utility land slot. “Would I like this effect in my deck at the cost of occasionally playing off-curve?” I think that’s why Ondu Inversion is actually really powerful. You aren’t playing it INSTEAD of Hour of Revelation, you’re playing it IN ADDITION to the board wipes you chose for your deck, at the cost of a basic Plains now being a tapped non basic. The less MDFCs you run, the better they are, since your mana base isn’t going to be tapped all the time. I think this plays into Vince’s (better known as PleasantKenobi on the internet) argument of Commander players playing too many tapped lands. It’s an interesting debate for sure, and I don’t think anybody is wrong, so long as they leave room for the potential of listening to other opinions. I think Tomer should try to see these cards more along the lines of a utility land slot more than just individual spells. Maybe just try testing a few out for different builds? I especially think he’s too low on Ondu Inversion. It might not be the best of the best, but I think it’s incredibly powerful and useful to have as a panic button that lies dormant in a land slot. My Top 3: 1. Valakut Awakening 2. Seagate Restoration 3. Ondu Inversion Honorary mention to anything that can be tutored with Sunforger, since those are spells that can also be lands if you’re in a pinch, and almost always have a use.

Ironically this is like the one thing toner and I agree on. I look at mdfc cards as spells with lands attached to them not like seth who looks at them the other way around. I want a spell that has good cmc for its effect and then having it be a land is the upside or possibly an option for when you are mana screwed. Not once have I looked at an mdfc as a land first. I already have enough lands I'll replace a spell that has a similar effect and now I get an extra land just in case. That's literally how they were designed. Also as a side note most people I know dont play 38 lands in thier commander deck like these guys do. To me it's a waste of slots and then they want to count them as lands which is odd becuase they are already running extra lands

Lol at Urborg - the universal solvent! XD

Yay, one of my favorite podcasts

Would love to see an updated tier list of these cards because half of these cards they are saying now are trash or never see play. I play in a mostly high powered format and the only cards I rarely ever see are malakir rebirth and valakut awakening. Both are cheap instant speed effect that are good at what they do any are also lands.

so topic for a future podcast: does wotc print legendaries that are "too perfect" for commander? idk if you can get an hour out of that but it has been on my mind lately. Me and my friends had a really good conversation about which commander would be best for a curse deck. we compared enchantress effects, which colors had the best curses, and which commanders used enchantments the best. It was really fun, but literally that night Lynde, cheerful tormentor got spoiled. while that card is very cool I kinda felt bad that like half an hour of discussion had now been reduced to one answer.

Seth: Commander Players don't play enough lands Me with my 19 land Anje deck: And?

@douglassmith8069

3 жыл бұрын

All of commander clash playing 5 to 6 more lands than the average commander player

I think that I may have slept on Emeria's Call. Indestructible until your NEXT turn? That allows you to alpha strike and pass without worrying about a wrath! That's decent.

Tomer, in the case that ondu inversion is in your hand and can't be cast, it would be a dud land draw either way. Actually, it would help you get to the higher mana cost cards.