Coming from actual experience in deep hole profiling. You'd want that shank every bit of 2" in diameter and made of heat treated material to give stiffness. You'd also want ultra-low tool pressure geometry cutter and low tooth count to lessen the chance of hitting an odd harmonic resonant frequency. I've seen long reach, small shank tool holders let loose before and its extremely violent. If the shank material is ductile, it will flex, dig in, flex more due to digging in and then ride up and out of the cut, bending the shank, turning the shank into a whip inside of the part and either snap the shank off OR completely eject the part from the fixturing. I pray I'm wrong but this is nervous nelly type stuff. Some long reach tooling is actually tubular (very thick wall) with spuds welded onto the ends as it lessens the chance of harmonics and flexure.

@g00167015

2 жыл бұрын

Heat treated will not in any way change the material (steel) stiffness per se, just increase its elastic range. The modulus though, to all intents and purposes, will remain the same for any type steel. Increasing cross sectional area or using a higher modulus material would be the only ways of achieving higher stiffness, though limited by the interface with the spindle nose and also the access room required deep down inside the workpiece as to what diameters could be practicable. As for harmonics etc, the application of this particular tool to machine true some weld buildup on a couple of registration pads down inside the stoker casting.............will be done on a manual mill with conservative cuts and conservative feed by (hopefully) an operator with enough wherewithal to setup his cut parameters and workholding in the right kinda ballpark to not chatter like heck and screw up a hundred dollars of inserts LOL. For sure, he aint gonna hog metal with that long skinny toolholder, but if he has to reach around an overhanging feature inside of the casting he's just gonna have to make do with the tool and take his time to get the job done without excessive chatterage........new term I just invented hahaha, chatterage🤠

@daveash9572

Жыл бұрын

I'm more concerned about welding spuds. We generally bake them in the oven here 😀

Extreme overhang + very thin extension + lots of inserts in the cut = Chatter heaven. Better start planning some vibration-reducing measures for that job.

@littleworkshopofhorrors2395

3 жыл бұрын

He could put a sleeve over the shaft to make it stiffer.

@Mishn0

3 жыл бұрын

I was wondering if they could rig up some sort of follow rest and cut in toward the dead end at the back of the engine case.

@donmittlestaedt1117

3 жыл бұрын

@@littleworkshopofhorrors2395 I was thinking maybe a heavy disc to act as a fly wheel.

@littleworkshopofhorrors2395

3 жыл бұрын

It may work as it is and a test cut on some scrap would show if there is a problem or not. If vibration is a problem a tapered sleeve with a TTS type mount at the drive end would most likely save the day, but only if there is a problem.

Conduct a deflection test. Clamp one end in the vice put a load and a dial indicator on the other. See what it takes to get a thou or two of flex. Tap it with a hammer and see how it rings. Cutter rpm/60 times number of inserts will give you the excitation frequency. If it is near the ring frequency its trouble. While its not often done an arbor can be made from thick wall tubing. A large diameter thick wall tube will be more rigid than the same mass of steel in a solid bar. Cheaper too. Car drive shafts used to be solid now they are thin wall tube. Modulus of elasticity is independent of hardness so heat treat won't help. Given you're trying to true up surfaces and not hog material, light cuts with this might work. I look forward to the machining video.

@Rorschach1024

2 жыл бұрын

You can also fill the tube with lead shot or sand to damp it even more.

Hello Keith, Interesting approach to solving the problem... I look forward to the visit to Mr. Terry's workshop as it is a fabulous place... Take care. Paul,,

I wish you luck with this. I love watching the projects. I never comment but I would have made the extension from 2” rod. Not only would it be more rigid the greater mass also helps in reducing chatter. Mass in motion tends to remain in motion. So chatter is the slowing and speeding up of the cutter. If it does not work you can always go back and make the extension from 2” material. A slow cutting speed also with the rigid powerful machine maybe enough. I just would have minimized the problem with chatter especially given the set backs on the project. Again good luck

Wow - Good Luck to you Sir! The disappointment on Adams’s face when he realized his machine wouldn’t work was clear. Now let’s hope this approach will give a satisfactory surface.

@mayshack

3 жыл бұрын

The one time using a shaper on his channel would make sense and his setup wouldn't allow him to use it.

I've been binge watching this great channel. Have to say, this is the first time I've thought, "That's not well designed or made." Hope it worked

A friend of mine would always say to me "if you can buy it, buy it, if you can buy it and modify it then do that , if those two things fail, build or make it. That was over forty years ago and I have never forgotten it and have acted to those words many times. Mostly ended up having to make it. lol. Nice video Keith.

Thats going to chatter like hell, i would have made the extension just slightly under the diameter of the cutter, hope it does work ok for you keith it will be nice to see some progress on the stoker engine.

@number40Fan

3 жыл бұрын

Agree. Said the same thing on someone else's reply.

@markschweter6371

3 жыл бұрын

IF, there's clearance. I don't remember how close the slide surface gets to being under the case lip.

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

Do you think it'd have been better with a simple fly cutter ?

@williamharris1302

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, make the shank as large as posable, maybe a hollow pipe filled with lead shot.

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

@@williamharris1302 There's certainly no need for it to be less than the cutter diameter.

I just love Keith's statement "It measures 1 inch and 885 thousanths, ROUGHLY". I'm lucky if my amateur woodworking projects are within a couple of mm accuracy. Thanks Keith - great work.

Can't hardly wait to see this in action in FL!

So glad I know to make things! I'm A MET (as I've said before) Made straight "A"s in machine shop and welding and having a need for a tool or part that is hard to get (or impossible to get) is only an inconvenience. "Ok. No biggie. I'll just make one".

Thanks for another interesting project. It's impractical and probably impossible but a solid carbide shaft would have less tendency to chatter. Looking forward to part two with deep machining on that big engine.

@silasmarner7586

3 жыл бұрын

I think judicious use of the steadi-rest cured what ails the steel. but regarding using it to hog out the stoker metal..... hmm.. I guess we shall see what we shall see.

A great project. Sort of complicated but made of several basic procedures. This really helps beginners like me. Thanks Frank

Toolmaking is my favourite subject. Top work, thanks Keith.

What a Job! I have already seen at least part of the milling you built this shaft for and (Spoiler Alert!) It seems to work. you sir can be very proud of that work. Thanks for the video

Glad to see you’re working back on the stoker engine box. I bet you can’t wait to get this job out in the shop and finished...

@Mishn0

3 жыл бұрын

"Stoker". It's the machine that feeds coal from the tender to the firebox of the locomotive, "stoking" the engine.

man I love your videos I am just a hobby machinist with a small lathe, actually its an EMCO MAXIMAT 7, made in austria it has the milling head attachment, everything works very very good. I am 62 yrs old an electronic engineering tech and licensed electrician by trade but i love this stuff, people like you and Adam and Mr Pete sure do make this interesting and your videos are so informative, thank you so much for sharing your craft with those of us who will never be machinists but just love the challenge of learning something new. i was very fortunate I bought a lot of measuring equipment and tooling from a retired machinist a while back and I am having a ball, I already want a bigger lathe lol. thanks to all of you gentleman for being such great instructors.

I had never heard of a stoker engine before i watched you disasemble this one. then watched abom try to shape it/ will enjoy watching you finish.

You are correct, Keith. I worked for subcontractor years ago at the state capitol building here in Pa, and we were taking out a chiller. It came apart in pieces, and we had to pull a front section out, and I had to make a tool to bolt into the section so we could use a chain hoist to pull/lift it both horizontally and vertically. It worked well for us and we got the job done with no hitches. I really don't know how else we would have been able to do this.

And that's just how they built em, eh mate! Job well done

this is the stuff I want to see more often!!!!!

Just a note, not particularly on this video, I just want to thank you for your web site and resources as it has been very useful to me and I had not taken the time to say thanks. I own a few old machines, and have downloaded a couple of manuals specific to machines I own from your site, a roughly 80 year old Atlas 10F lathe with Babbitt bearings, and a 70 year old Craftsman King Seeley band saw. I have also picked up some knowledge from your videos that has helped me with getting and keeping things running. With knowledge and maintenance, I believe these machines can be kept in working order almost indefinitely, and the information that you are passing on is invaluable in that regard. I think your videos and your web site are particularly good resources for people like myself just trying to keep their old equipment in service.

I think it is a good indicator that you couldn't turn that between centers without chatter that this will not be rigid enough.

Good job Keith! The whole issue of turning in a 3-jaw versus turning between centres is quite important, but not easy to understand. You explained it well.

I find it fascinating that something made in either the late 1800s or early 1900s is having master machinists today scratching their heads.

Tools to make tools. I love it.

Hi Keith, if this doesn't go as planned, it would be cool if you tried a home-built damped mass shank, a cylinder of lead with some carefully selected axial and radial o-rings might do it.

Excelente dispositivo. Para tan hermosa herramienta. Bendiciones. Maestro trabaja UD muy bien gracias por tus consejos tan valiosos. Saludos desde Colombia ciudad de Pereira.

Good morning Keith

Keith Hi, Long time follower retired engineer now sailing the world slowly...... Have you thought about bracing the the head of the cutter inside the stoker engine with a dog leg bearing braced from the milling machine? Once the quill is down into the stoker engine the depth of cut will vary slightly. It is possible to fabricate a dog leg bearing that extends from the quill further down the cutter. It would clamp around the quill. Suitably sized flat bar, say 3/4 inch or even stock angle cut and welded to a dog leg with a roller bearing would totally eliminate any cutting head movement or run out. Obviously it would need to be tailored to the Mill but could be fabricated roughly then bored using the actual machine your intending to use. This would make it very accurate and virtually eliminate any end float or deviation/wobble. Anthony. SV Impavidus.

With that length of extension, I would have tried to use a shaft twice that diameter, but then we may have had to come back down to one inch for the chuck end. If a bigger diameter for the chuck could be used, it would have stiffened it further.

I'm crossing my fingers that this will work, good luck

Keith, you had to put a steady rest on the shaft to turn it down and keep it from chattering in the lathe. What does that tell you about when you hang a cutter on one end way way out there in a mill?

Making tool for tools! Nice. Looking forward to the stoker machining!

Keith, thank you. I would use the same diameter as the cutter for the arbor to drive. Such a long reach will probably scatter. Taking reaaal light cuts could do the job but I would go for it with a maximum beefy arbor to be in the best starting position. Not more work to do, just extra material. I enjoyed watching your video again. And when someone aimed a camera at me working I had comments too. But you're in the spotlight and I'm not planning on a youtube channel (I f**k all the time :-P) Thank you Keith! Pleasure to watch (and comment ;-)) Best, Job

Another good machining video, thanks Keith! Can’t wait to see how it works.

Totally enjoyed the video. I'm trying to get pumped enough to make a holder like that with a B&S #9 taper to drive it in my Wells Index 40H.

Great video Keith. I wish you safe travels as you head out to work on that steam engine. You have given me the inspiration I need to make a similar shaft for a face mill. The one I got with my face mill has a poor fit resulting in a terrible surface.

You know all that stuff about running perfectly true between centers goes out the window when you run the steady on a unturned surface.

@Craneman4100w

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, You hit that one on the head.

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

Keith is far from perfect but is a very nice bloke ! ....as long as the ends run true ;) ??? !!!! But actually - if you look at the running centre in the tailstock, it appears to be wobbling - probably due to the steady running on an eccentric surface.

@andreblanchard8315

3 жыл бұрын

@@millomweb He does get a lot done for the community and the museum etc..

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

@@andreblanchard8315 In a way, I hope his life is as happy and contented as he comes across. I note he makes quite a few errors in the videos but what we see him do where he makes errors, is a fraction of what he is actually doing. He's 'working' while planning a video, seting up camera gear, thinking concisely what he's going to say. I think the fact he comes across as so chilled out is testament to his abilities while acknowledging he's not perfect either. We have Oscars for the film industry, BAFTAs for TV but nothing similar for KZread. KZread would win everything - widest variety of 'programmes', best entertainment, most educational - need I go on ?

@jerrypeal653

2 жыл бұрын

I find many ways to not do something!

I have seen photo’s in steam shop’s c. 1920 showing very large vertical mills with very large tools, in one case a cutter that was a couple of feet long.

@silasmarner7586

3 жыл бұрын

The plural of photo is photos, not photo's. The plural of steam shop is steam shops not steam shop's.

@OCT566

3 жыл бұрын

@@silasmarner7586 thank god we have someone to look out for our grammar. Some where a 3rd grade class is missing it’s teacher.

Nice work! I think though that in going wirh the 1.125" shaft I would have started by center drilling both ends and done all, or most of the turning between centers. On the other hand, I think it may have been better to use a large enough hollow bar stock to mate up to the 40 taper adapter, and use a short, very snug fitting pin at the lower end for center aligning the cutter.

A well founded concern about vibration at the end of that long shaft. We do make springs out of steel.

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

LOL ! Should he have used concrete ;)

@barryboyd7973

3 жыл бұрын

Perhaps carbide would have made a stiffer shaft, but a piece of carbide like that would be pricey and tough to machine.

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

@@barryboyd7973 I'm no expert on metals but I thought cast iron would have been a better option than steel ?

@silasmarner7586

3 жыл бұрын

@@millomweb The humor is so dry I need some moisturizer! hah hah! :)

Working in oilfield downhole tooling, we often had to fabricate extremely long reach boring bars and hollow steel or cast iron filled with lead shot were the only way to go. The consensus of those with machine tooling experience indicates this 1" arbor is going to chatter and whip like nobody's business. I'd really suggest remaking this with those comments in mind. You can remake the arbor. Remaking the engine housing is not an option. Caution is advised.

That was fascinating. I really enjoyed the project. Thanks; it's appreciated muchly.

Do it as youy think you should (or can) do. Very unusual setup to come. If it works, it works. If it doesn't you will have tried and you will find another way. Everything is impossible unitll someone has done it. All these peoples predicting failure.... So sad. I'm not a machinist (French carpenter), but I love seing you keeping up. Thanks

I imagine deflection will be the biggest issue. Lots of light cuts should do the job

@mayshack

3 жыл бұрын

Chatter due to lack of rigidity is going to be a massive issue. These are supposed to be matching machined surfaces, chatter has the potential to shorten the life of the engine significantly if they can't get a decent finish. Abom was very skeptical that the long arbor would work when he found out that Kieth decided to go that route after Adam couldn't get the shaper to work out.

It is possible they used a right angle universal boring mill attachment to get offset clearance. That would have been the trick.

I hope the long arbor is stiff enough for the job. With that face mill on it, I think it will cause chatters. I suggest the same dia as the facemill for the arbor becaus of the length-dia ratio. Let's see how it works.

Great Job Keith, Looking forward to see it work, thanks.

Looks great!

Thank you for the very informative video.

Thanks for sharing!!!

Just brilliant how you can make what you need .👍👍👍

THANK YOU...for sharing. Great, Watched and enjoyed it.

Great video on keeping everything concentric. A light slow cut should should keep a flat surface in the bottom.

@Craneman4100w

3 жыл бұрын

It can't be concentric when the steady rest was run on unfinished surfaces.

Nice tool Keith. Very nice work. I guess you will do a test piece first before you try it on the Stoker engine. Thanks for sharing.

Tapered pin is a good choice for that application.A lot of people don’t like them but, I do

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

It went in too far. Why use a tapered one rather than a frozen one pressed in ?

@jamesdavis8021

3 жыл бұрын

Doesn’t matter.For holes where you can’t get to the back side to drive the pin out,I turn down the large end of the pin,just below the surface and thread for a nut to pull the pin.Those tapered pins hold like nothing else. I will use them over spring pins any day of the week.

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamesdavis8021 Totally agree spring pins are for a different purpose. I've 2 taper pins with square ends - so they can be rotated loose with a spanner.

As others have already mentioned, if you have chatter problems, a heavy sleeve will help. Another solution could be a heavy, extended reach fly cutter, which is probably what was originally done. I hope your solution works as is and can’t wait to see the job done. Thanks, John

as i write specifications for a living, I'm always wondering about words.....for those little keys wasn't that counterbored not countersunk

Just been watching Cutting Edge Engineering using a 75mm (circa 3") boring bar with comparable stick out

30:50 Smooth looks good - so use emery cloth but smooth is bad for traction - so as the part's going to be gripped in a collet - leave it rough !

37:25 Long arbor with cutter on the end - put it in horizontal mill and use overarm support with arbor support. If the arbor support will fit into the stoker engine casing with the arbor bearing where you need to mill, that would work ! Figuring out how to mount the casing on the mill would be the next bit of fun !

I've never seen Adam do anything outside of the box so it doesn't surprise me that he couldn't do it and he said it was going to be to much work.

@waynespyker5731

3 жыл бұрын

Didn't have the clearance with the standard tool holder. Should have input CMM stoker cavity dimensions and the shaper stroke w/tool holder to compare friability. CAD layouts would have proven the impossibility. Coordinate Measuring Machine and Computer Aided Design are in the community, their use would predicted this small bump in the road.

@robevans8555

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, Adam had it sitting for 6 months going rusty, made a show of making a table to hold it then turned round and said he didn't want to make a custom tool, I was really disappointed with the apparent lack of effort to finish the job.

@arfonjones7188

3 жыл бұрын

Expect a barrage of abuse for your candid comment.

@Blazer02LS

3 жыл бұрын

@@robevans8555 Yeah it seems that machine work has taken a back seat to buying new toys and travel. Barely even bother to watch the commercials he's been doing lately.

@mayshack

3 жыл бұрын

Imagine how upset he was after making the fixture to find out his beloved shaper wasn't going to be able to do the job. The one time on his channel where using a shaper would make sense (due to lack of rigidity in a long arbor and mill), and he couldn't use it anyway. Adam pimps out his shaper(s) like he has a warehouse full of them to sell.

Looking at that extended holder, I wonder if when they originally milled it they would have had something like an arbor support that would reach down near the end of the extended shaft to help keep things from chattering?

I hear Elliot the destroyer of pine cones is out there helping!

I hope nobody blames Adam for the delay in this. He did everything he could to make it work. It'll be nice to finally see some more progress on this project though.

@tsmartin

3 жыл бұрын

Well ... it's kind hard not to when that part sat outside his shop ... it was clearly visible in one of his videos ... getting rusty for months while he was off playing. I take no joy in saying that but while he was working at Motion he seemed to be more on top of things. But ... people change I guess.

I enjoyed this video

I think I’d have opted for a fly cutter, far less tool pressure

Need a tool, make a tool. If you are worried about shaft flex, you could have made it out of 2"+ round bar and machined the ends down to size. Check out Cutting Edge Engineering channel to see a larger boring bar.he had to make for a job. Thanks for the video. Hope to see you at the Bar-Z. Jon

@tsmartin

3 жыл бұрын

CCE does some awesome stuff.

@0verboosted

3 жыл бұрын

@@tsmartin +1 for Carl!

Best of luck! It will be interesting to see the results. If it is not rigid enough, I bet you will find some other way to do it.

Great work

if useing an ios on a cincinnati mill use slow speed on slow table feed to stop vibration and finish of cutt on a 2 or 3 mi or dial type milling m /c

Congrats Great job well done very informative keep up the good work.👍

Sehr gut, mach weiter so!!👍👍👍

Hiya Keith

another fine video

My bet is failure- that shaft is too long and too thin, it's gonna flex and bend. Should have started with a 2 1/2 shaft welded to a CAT 40 taper.

@paulcopeland9035

3 жыл бұрын

Glad to see you are your usual positive self.

@williamharris1302

3 жыл бұрын

I think you are right.

@oldschool1993

3 жыл бұрын

@@paulcopeland9035 Yes, I am quite positive this will not work, even doing it as I suggested would be marginal. It should really be done on a horizontal boring mill.

GREAT JOB, GREAT VIDEO, PAT THE DOGS & CATS, TELL EVERYBODY HI FOR ME [ BACK TO WORK ]...

Looking at comercial long shank cutters they often are slightly tapered, getting wider on the end that goes into the spindle. That should help with the stiffness of the cutter. But this may also be fine if you take light enough cuts. Still not a good feeling with that relatively thin shaft, can you maybe try the cutter on your milling machine first before you run into the possible issues when you're at your friends place?

I haven’t been in a machine shop for close to 50 years but just wondering from novice point of view, why not make it out of whatever the diameter the cutter is and just make it out of one solid piece?

So did you put it in your milling machine and check it for runout? Did it run true like you hoped it would?

Curious about what steel grade you chose for the shaft.

Looks good. Have you thought about sending him the cutter now, for testing? It would be a shame if you wait till you get there and it not work out. Just a CYA measure.

“I just didn’t have a big enough machine in my shop to do this job....” (Excuse to get another machine, Keith?) 😉

@H3rmanHan01

3 жыл бұрын

There are two types of shop jobs ... a quickie and a job worth doing. Any job worth doing requires the acquisition of another tool. So, if making a new tool is the job, does that supply the required tool or does it require yet another tool be acquired? If the tool to be acquired exceeds extant shop resources it becomes a project. Warning! Projects may exceed all available resources, including those of a marriage. (e.g. Building a boat.)

I predict it will chatter like nobody's business.

@timeckelmann1196

3 жыл бұрын

My thoughts also.

@d00dEEE

3 жыл бұрын

I'm certainly not going to make a bet against you!

@number40Fan

3 жыл бұрын

Agree. I would have gone with a bar that matched the O.D. of the cutter to give it a fighting chance. I'm sure the machine he will use can accept the larger size.

@garybrenner6236

3 жыл бұрын

@@number40Fan And do not forget that the material that they used to build up the worn surfaces tends to be very hard.

@MyTubeSVp

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe he can use a guide bushing somewhere along the shaft ?

You could make the Ice cream machines in the mean time... :)

Curious as to why you didn't machine sections for the steady rest to run against.

@mayshack

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, that was an amateur mistake, hopefully the arbor is concentric enough, but it certainly won't be as concentric as the setup could have allowed.

@millomweb

3 жыл бұрын

At one point, I wasn't convinced the bar was running on the tailstock centre as it appeared to be wobbling all over the place - as if the steady rollers were keeping the bar concentric with the uncut o/d.

D'andrea Modulhard or Sandvik Capto. Both have extensions, vibration damped or without. Make as long as necessary and which will work :) Usually steel shank overhang is ~3xD. Carbide longer and dampened toolholders. Dont know how light cutting that shell mill is. You would want such a lead angle for inserts that the cutting forces are Axial, Now you will get radial and it will chatter. For side milling a end mill would be first choice, HSS if possible or a really sharp carbide.

If you REALLY wanted to damp out any vibration due to such a long shank, if you had made it from 2" durabar cast iron bar and left it the full 1.875 (yes I would have rounded to the next fractional size) right up to the 1" shank. The cast iron would have damped any vibration. And the thicker shank would have reduced whipping.

I am with the others here, I would have made the shaft out of 1.5" stock, I believe Keith indicated that the cutter was 2". I know clearance was a concern, but it seems like the thicker the better. Thanks very much for sharing this Keith. It will be interesting to see it in action. Could be just my nature to over build everything.

So why did you not make the shaft 2" in diameter instead of the 1". It would be substantially more ridgid for milling would it not? Not risking any deflection when cutting or at least the minimum amount for the application

LOT a stick out, we shall see......

Hind sight is 20/20, but could you have milled those drive dogs out of the extra length you turned off? Always enjoy keep um coming.

Honest question: Why go to the extra steps of making a slot for the keys and then securing them with set screws? Milling the drive dogs onto that metal disk would seem to be quicker and stronger. Is the metal of the keys that much stronger? I'm really enjoying learning the machinist's problem solving mindset.

Why don't you use a horizontal boring machine? It has all the depth you need.

@michaelsanzo5867

3 жыл бұрын

I’m not Keith but I play him on TV. If you’ve seen the Stoker engine casing, actually on Abom79 or on here you would know that there’s not enough room for the spindle of a horizontal boring mill to get in there, it’s very tight

Let me see. The shaft was moving while machining and needed a steady rest, but it won't flex when machining the stoker. I predict enough chatter to have a catastrophic failure.

@OCT566

3 жыл бұрын

That’s how they did it years ago, right ? I guess

I wonder if there is any correlation between drive dog position and chatter/vibration. Maybe something to do with the harmonic nodes in the shaft or whatever those are called.

I will have to go back and see why it is necessary to mill that down inside could have shown that as the reason for the build mainly because it’s been a long time coming Thanks for sharing

@Blazer02LS

3 жыл бұрын

The areas that the cross heads ride on was worn, so they were built up and now they need to be machined back flat.

Why not make the shank as wide as possible?