Great channel! So glad to have discovered it, and will be catching up on many of your informative videos.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Ed. I really appreciate the encouragement and it’s nice to know your enjoying the videos.

Congratulations on the video, great work done, has answered so many questions on LFP MIC 2021 model. In my case, as soon after I made it a full year of ownership. the 100% charge now shows 410km and I have driven the car 15.000 km during that time… that’s 4% lost range based on car indications.. but still would like to run the tests you did, checking battery cell difference. Could you please advice on hardware if needed and the App you recommend for that? Thank you.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Hi EV Port. Thanks. If you go back to the first video I made it covers everything you need to get ScanMyTesla setup. You will need a vehicle harness adapter Bluetooth OBD adapter and the ScanMyTesla app. Yes, all of these cars from same time period have almost exactly the same range prediction which backs up my theory that it is not degradation but a set capacity by Tesla.

Only just came across this video but I have a 2022 60kWh which I got in March. Initially the "indicated" range was 438km (not much more than 55, and according to Bjorns tests actual range not that much more - in fact he didn't hit WLTP range on his very gentle Sunday drive) and now after 9 months and 11,000 km, it says 428km. I have scan my Tesla so will grab the same figures and post here later.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Jonathan. Yes I’ve seen his videos too. Most of the cars he is testing don’t have a heap of km on them. A lot of the range loss is due to Tesla changing the range calc built into the car. This is not based on your driving style. I have seen my useable capacity dropping too but this is a figure set by Tesla. I am thinking it is a mix of degradation, Tesla set useable capacity and the EPA range calc. Overall I’m 10km down from range prediction when I bought the car 18months ago. No big deal.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

It would be good to see where your figures are at with the 60kWh.

"Charging to a 100% resets the battery management system"... I would rather say: Charging to a 100% gives the battery management system the "end-point" reference it needs to determine what is left in the battery. Great and deliciously detailed video!

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Ozone. Yeah sometimes I could choose my words a bit more carefully. Not much is known about how Tesla calculates some of these figures and the accuracy is not known. I’d say every now and then it also needs a full discharge down below 10% and a charge back to 100% to calibrate. I am editing another LFP update video focussing on range, degradation and charging habits. It will be up soon. I’ve found out some more info since I made this video.

Thanks for these tests...I'm finding them very informative. I have a similar car, MiC 55kWh LFP battery, almost 1 year old, nearly 25k kms. Range reported as 424 when new, and has gradually come down to 413 at present. A question I continue to have is what SoC should I 'regularly' charge to. I know Tesla say 100%, but that seems more geared to the car being able to work out it's range. All of my ebike batteries are better kept within the 20-80 range. I've always thought it still best to do the same with my Tesla LFP battery and have probably limited mine to 85% most of the time with a charge to 100% every 2nd week or so, though when I do i usually do so just before I need to drive a distance which will bring it down 10% or so. I just don't like leaving it at 100% for any length of time. I'd be very interested in your thoughts. Thanks.

@GabrieleBonetti

Жыл бұрын

I reckon you strategy is quite perfect, I do the same. The 100% charge is mostly to help BMS at the cost of slightly higher degradation. Your strategy seems a good balance between the 2 needs

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Hi John. Since making my preconditioning videos I don’t make an effort to keep the car at 100% anymore. Mostly because I don’t need too. I could really just charge once a week if I had a faster charger at home or work. It’s interesting that you have the same range loss and this helps confirm my theory that it is more to do with how the car calculates this range than battery degradation. I think your strategy is good. I just don’t think enough time has passed to know for sure what is the best long term strategy. I wouldn’t be too worried about it. Based purely on the LFP chemistry the degradation difference between 85% or 100% SOC is going to be very minute. The voltage difference between these two charge states is small (approx 10-15V). It’s a combination of the lower voltage and energy density that allow the LFP to be kept at 100% SOC. In comparison, 100% on an LFP is probably equivalent to 60-70% with a non-LFP as far as stress goes. LFP batteries have been around for a long time in other application but are relatively new to EVs. The chemistry has been proven to be safer and have a longer lifespan in applications like solar storage systems. To answer your question, if you don’t need to charge the car then don’t. You do need to top up to 100% for the BMS to stay accurate but this will only be a concern if you run down to lower SOC where every kWh will count. Just my opinion….

@EddieD1036

Жыл бұрын

Interesting to see real world numbers. Here are some of mine - my LFP Model 3 showed 425 KM range in June 2021 when brand new, and now in March 2023 shows 406 KM. I am 90% garage charging at 6 amps, with supercharging restricted to occasional trips. Up until just a few months ago I always left the car set to charge to 100%. I decided to start setting charge to 50%, then every Friday put it up to 100%, so it’s fully charged ever Saturday morning, then move it right back to 50%. As much as I love car, as a telecommuter the nearly two year old car only has 19,800 KM on the odometer.

Thanks for your work - really useful and answers a lot of questions. I don't know if this helps your research; in my case on a brand new (less than 1 week!) model 3 RWD (LPF with i guess 60kw capacity?) I lost 6km max range (438->432km) after ~800km travel and charging only on supercharger until the one i ordered arrives (they stopped giving the mobile one with the car). I charged twice to 100% and then between 50-85% several times. Last night i borrowed a friend's mobile connector and gave it a nice slow recharge capped at 8amps overnight to 100% and the max range was massaged from 432 - 433km. I am not really concerned about this. The car is most fun!! :-) All thoughts/comments on this range fluctuation on a brand new car are welcome - i am sure others have the same question, especially since the mobile connector does not come with the car any more...

@kvitoroulis

Жыл бұрын

So after the 432->433, i did a software update in the morning and the car wanted to charge a bit more... I put it on slow 6amp setting on the borrowed mobile charger and +1km... 433->434. The intention here is not to split hairs over a km or two (!!) but its interesting to me how the maximum range changed before any driving took place. All comments welcome.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

@@kvitoroulis Thanks for your comments. My car does fluctuate slightly over the short term but only by a few km. I wouldn’t be too concerned with slower charge rates. Anything less than 1C (60kW in your case) will be slow enough to give a balancing charge. You don’t need to limit the mobile connector as it charges at a slow rate anyway. A brand new car might actually fluctuate more as the battery settles in over the first few months. It should settle down after then and be fairly consistent unless there is an update to the range calculation.

Hello! Relatively new Tesla Owner here. I was wondering if you think supercharging at 72kwh is bad over a long period. I also have a Level 2 that takes a lot longer though. Which one would you recommend i stick to thanks!

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Hi Bryan. The slower the better for long term health but don’t stress too much about it. If you have the LFP it’s pretty robust. 72kW isn’t that bad anyway. Generally 1C charge rate isn’t going to stress it out much. The C rating refers to how much a battery can charge in an hour which is relative to its capacity. A 1C rate for a 55kWh battery is 55kW.

Great video! Question I drive 5 miles a day to work round trip. Should I plug in every day 100% . Getting different opinions.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Hi John. If it’s an LFP it won’t hurt the battery to keep it at 100% as it’s not as stressed as other chemistries when fully charged. So keep doing that if it suits you. I did do that for a long time but it’s not necessary. I just charge to 100% every few days now. This allows the BMS to calibrate and give you a more accurate state of charge with LFP. I have been told that the LFP can degrade if not kept at 100% but I couldn’t find anything rock solid on this. The main thing is don’t stress about it. It would take some time for the SOC to go out of calibration and it would only matter if you were running down to low states of charge where the car could shut down sooner than expected. One thing I try to do with regular charging is if I put it on charge I try and leave it on until it reaches 100%. This is easier if you have a wall charger that can charge at higher rates like 7kW or 11kW. LFP batteries in electric vehicles are still relatively new even if the chemistry has been around for a long time. Best practice for battery health is based off what we know today and this may change in 10years time but the cars battery management will evolve over this time too.

I've seen comments that unless you need to have an accurate SOC, it is better not to regularly charge to 100%. If you are planning a long trip, then charge to 100% to allow an accurate SOC.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Hi Shane. I’m still learning about these batteries but charging to 100% whenever you can seems to be the best thing to do and this is even recommended by Tesla. They would be very careful how they word this too. I’ve read that it’s not just for state of charge accuracy but good for the LFP state of health too. I’m still researching this though. The LFP chemistry is not under as much stress as other chemistries when charged to 100% so I’m not concerned about that. The biggest killer is still over-discharging and fast charging when too cold or too hot. Most of the bad things you can do to this battery are managed well by the BMS. The rest really comes down to the quality of the original pack build and we will know about this over the coming years I guess. My main reason for this heath check and tests was to set a benchmark for the voltage sag under load. Not super scientific but all I could think of without disassembling the pack. I have read that there is cross transfer of the anode and cathode material over time and this leads to the higher internal resistance which will increase the voltage sag over time. Tesla have a big capacity buffer for the LFP battery so the useable capacity is set by them and makes a proper capacity check for degradation inaccurate.

No BEV is immune to degradation but with the LFP it will be lower than the other Tesla batteries. We might very well see standard M3's out ranging the LR trims after 2 to 3 years of use.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

With the efficiency of the SR that’s not a crazy statement.

I have owned model 3 LPF for 1 month and 4 days, 98% been charging with the Tesla mobile charger. Is it Ok to charge 100% every night? Also is 50kw charging station (DC) degrades the battery? At the moment I get 439kms at 100% , the battery pack is 60. Your thoughts?

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Yes. With LFP chemistry it is fine to keep at 100% it’s not as stressed at 100% SOC as other chemistries are. 50kW is actually not that bad for fast charging as it is below 1C for your battery. 1C is the power needed to charge your battery capacity in 1 hour. 60kW is 1C for a 60kWh battery.

Hi! My brand new model 3, Aug 22 make, started at 427km - 100% charge. After driving it for a week (~800km), I have discharged the car down to 3%. Then charged the car 45kw @32amp 7kw) followed by 1kw charge for 10 hours.. Now it 440km @ 100%. I think it just has recalibrated itself now.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Congratulations on your new car! Definitely sounds like it calibrated itself. You would have the bigger battery than me.

@fisherrr333

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual your school, thank you!

@kritdeknor4711

Жыл бұрын

I have same battery as you and I never have 440km when full. Maybe I should calibrate but electricity is so expensive to do full charge.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

@@kritdeknor4711 As long as you top up to 100% once a week it’s fine. What country are you in?My home electricity is $0.21/kWh any time of day here in Australia which is a small fraction of the cost of fuel. There are also a lot of free places to charge here in Australia.

@kritdeknor4711

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual Norway it’s about $0.6/kWh

hello, thank you for this useful video. I bought 2023 model tesla model 3 standard range last week. I drive 110 miles every day and I have to charge it every day. What percentage range do you think I should charge? You were the master of this business.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Hi. Thanks for watching. I am assuming that you have the LFP battery and charging to 100% each day is not a problem. It’s really up to you. The benefit of the LFP is being able to keep your battery topped up to 100% without causing big degradation. Do you charge at home overnight? How fast can you charge at home? If being able to charge to 100% overnight is a problem then that is ok as long as you top it up to 100% at least once a week which will maintain the SOC accuracy. What percentage do you arrive home with at the end of the day?

@fixyphonerepair-ef1ww

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual At the end of the day, I charge it between 40% and 50%. I charge it at home with a dry outlet. I reach 100% every night at 6am.

@fixyphonerepair-ef1ww

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual dry outlet 240 v 24 amp.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

@@fixyphonerepair-ef1ww Ok. If you are happy to charge to 100% every night then that is fine to do without hurting the LFP battery. If you live where winter is very cold then you will probably want to charge to 100% depending on the roads you will be driving on.

@fixyphonerepair-ef1ww

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual thank for help bro. See you again

Interesting topic. Calculating degradation is extremely difficult, if not impossible to do accurately. The only way to get a semi accurate result is to charge the car to 100% and drive it without stopping until 0 or beyond, then observe the total energy consumption. Even this won’t be completely accurate as there are too many variables. The range estimator in the car is in my opinion completely meaningless and can vary wildly due to all sorts of reasons. SMT is interesting but relies on the BMS which may also may not be completely accurate. Bjorn recently did a video on this very subject which was very enlightening. After watching that, I don’t worry about degradation anymore because it is almost meaningless. The LFP will surely outlast the car, so I don’t think it is worth worrying about at all. I have seen a lot of discussion recently about not charging the LFP to 100% and treating it like an NCA to avoid degradation. Doing this is the exact opposite of what the LFP is designed for. Tesla has tonnes of data from millions of cars and wouldn’t recommend daily 100% charging if it was going to destroy the battery. Just my 2c.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

I agree with you totally on the charging to 100%. I just don’t get too obsessed with it. LFP and now LMFP are the future for shorter range EVs. The range is based on the energy that the software allows you to use and ScanMyTesla gives you that figure. Bjorn has proven this many times so it might not be worth doing a test to zero or beyond. For some non-Tesla cars this would be the only way to test battery capacity/degradation. The range shown near the battery symbol is not based on your driving style but a range calculation set by Tesla. The energy app gives you a dose of reality.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

I also watched Bjorn’s video and chuckled to myself as I’ve had this video pretty much ready to go for a while now. It’s a hot topic but once you actually own an EV for a while these things that seemed like big things become pretty minor as you realise your not pushing the limits of range very often.

@aviationboy8

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual that’s right, long story short “don’t worry about it”. With regards to calculating true degradation, I don’t know if it is even possible or how to do it. I think the only person who could tell us that would be a tesla engineer? I’d love to know, but I suspect they’d just tell us something along the lines of “don’t worry about it” :)

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

@@aviationboy8 Spot on. That’s why I thought I’d do these load tests as a reference for anyone interested. They are a good indicator of health and pretty much all you can test yourself. Batteries and electrical systems are best checked under load. Capacity is set by Tesla in my opinion until degradation surpasses any buffer they can use which should be a very long time.

@aviationboy8

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual Sounds reasonable to me. Love the videos, keep it up! Cheers.

Flooring it at every stop light? That's me😂

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

😂 me too…….it’s so hard to resist…chill mode not needed!

@kiwijonowilson

Жыл бұрын

Yeah its always pretty tempting 😀. With the 60kWh LFP though the initial acceleration is slower than the 55 (due to different motor I believe) but once it hits 60km/h it pulls pretty strongly (way more than at say 30km/h). So I really enjoy it on an open bit of road where overtaking is a breeze.

Full Pack When New is not a true value. It's hard coded in BMS. Most of LFP 55kWh came with high 53s, that is more or less 423km range (EPA nominal range). By doing a simple rule of three between range and Nominal Full Pack, you will get a 51.3kWh usable remaining when new, that corresponds to 53.7kWh with buffer and that is what most users with Scan My Tesla since first day reports (some users have higher NFP up to 54.1). But never 55, unfortunately. This does not happen with new LFP 60kWh, when 60 to 60.9 is the norm. So, assuming your REAL Full Pack When New is around 53.7, your current degradation is just 2.12%. Not bad. LFP degrades mostly due to calendar and not due to charge cycles (mileage). I have a 55 LFP with slightly greater degradation right now and with the same by the time this video was recorded.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

That’s my opinion too. We have the range Tesla allows us to have right now until degradation eats into the buffers. This video was to benchmark where my car is at and I’ll do this each year.

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual The most surprising for me is that the degradation is the same regardless temperature and should not be (unless Tesla cooling system is exceptional or CATL cell are more resistant to heat than in lab tests). This hellish summer in Spain has not affected my battery too much compared with UK. I like LFP batteries. Heavier, less energy density than NCx but exceptional strong and much more secure.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

@ I think we are in for a hot summer here in Sydney too. Luckily battery thermal management in the model 3 and Y is very efficient. I think the long term resale value for LFP cars will be better. Thanks for watching, I still can’t believe people from around the world are watching my videos 😀

Does it tell u how many cells? What is cell voltage immediatly after reaching 100%?

@notinthemanual

11 ай бұрын

Hi Alan. It doesn’t tell you how many cells exactly but you can divide the full pack voltage at 100% (375V) by individual cell voltage (3.532V) and you get 106 cells. I think it is also split up into 28V modules but I’m not 100% on that. It just displays modules in ScanMyTesla, each module has 8 cells.

@BajanAlan

11 ай бұрын

@@notinthemanual Someont pointed out to me that that is if the cells are in series. I have LIFEPO4 cells from china and their range is 2.5 to 3.65v!

@notinthemanual

11 ай бұрын

@@BajanAlan Yes this is why I feel 100% is not really 100% in this pack. 3.65v should be 100%.

@notinthemanual

11 ай бұрын

@@BajanAlan I really don’t know if some of the cells are in parallel. I can count the individual cells in ScanMyTesla and let you know

@notinthemanual

11 ай бұрын

@@BajanAlan I did research this before and as far as I could find there are 106 cells. I counted 96 in ScanMyTesla but I don’t think this shows them all. With large prismatic cells I’d say it’s difficult space wise to run parallel cells. Here is one site where specs are listed. ev-database.org/car/1320/Tesla-Model-3-Standard-Range-Plus-LFP

That was interesting, thank you :-) My LFP-55 also started with 423 km when new. And is now down to 413 km after 37.000 km. I did have it sitting now for about 2 weeks at 78-80 % SOC, unplugged. And now noticed that cell imbalance was up from "the usual" 4 mV to 20 mV yesterday. So yesterday i charged it to 100 %, had it "sleep" for over 3 hours and then drove it. Cell imbalance again at up to 20 mV. This worries me a little. Should it ?!? Any ideas anyone ?

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Yes it seems that most of the LFP 55kW are predicting the exact same range at 100% which hints it’s set by Tesla’s in vehicle calculation and not solely based on your individual battery health. 20mV is still quite low. I wouldn’t be too worried about that mine fluctuates between 2-16mV.

@kritdeknor4711

Жыл бұрын

My lfp 60kWh have 435 km, your have 55kWh and have 423 km when new. Amazes me how little 5kWh does with the range.

6:14 Are we talking 20 or 25°C?

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

25degC is where you get a more consistent feeling regen but it’s not really a set figure. It also depends on SOC and ambient temp.

Where did you get that app in top left corner?

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

If you go right back to the first video I posted it explains everything and has links to the adapters. It’s an app called ScanMyTesla. I can’t drive without it running now 😂

4% in 1 year - same shit as the NCMs, so no advantage for the LFP here.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Hi Rolf. It’s actually possibly half that as the starting figure when new isn’t very accurate in ScanMyTesla. I only just found this out and am about to make another video on this. It doesn’t account for initial settling of the cells but shows the capacity when installed. Settling of the cells can be around 2-3%. This is true for the NC batteries too. With my LFP most of this is initial degradation that will stabilise between 5-10% for life so long term this is a lot less than NC batteries. For daily driving the range of the LFP is similar to the long range because it can be charged to 100% instead of 80% daily with the NC. Degradation is very difficult to measure accurately but time will tell with the LFP. This is only a theoretical prediction of the LFP long term.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

LFP has a higher rate of initial degradation than NC chemistry but it’s hard to trust that when you see the capacity dropping for yourself. I have heard other cars with LFP stabilising at around 50000km close to 10%.

@tdome3000

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual I've heard of a LFP car with 150000 km and 10%, but all these numbers don't seem different to NCM, maybe only of you keep the car for 10 years.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

@@tdome3000 It’s hard to know what to trust. I just use the facts I have in front of me for my car. Regardless of whether it’s accurate or artificial. Degradation is degradation. If you test how many kWh you use from 100% down to 0% then that’s what matters. You can drive extremely inefficient and waste a lot of that energy and have a massively reduced range or drive efficiently and maximise it. For most people 10% deg would hardly be noticeable as long as the overall battery health is good. I’ve never driven anywhere remote enough to push my range so far for that to matter. It’s going to vary from person to person. I don’t live in a cold climate though.

You requested data from non-lfp battery so here it is - kzread.info/dash/bejne/Y2aM29V6qarMo5M.html . I performed a test from 100% SOC to 0% SOC and back to 100% SOC on tesla model 3 LR AWD 01/2019 with probably NMC battery.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Thanks klikar1982 . That's great. I'll take a look.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Wow non LFP really don't have any regen at 100%. The volts per cell is very different too.

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Also looks like 8% deg according to this but that's still a bit of a mystery. I think we are seeing the capacity that Tesla set. ScanMyTesla stopped using these figures for degradation calculation as they found them inaccurate.

@klikar1982

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual it sounds logical to me, if you are already at maximum capacity, there is nowhere to store some additional energy so you have to first use some energy to make a place for a new one made by regen. Normal range from 0% to 100% SOC equals to 2,97 V - 4,20 V on cell level.

@klikar1982

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual one of the reason of this test was to measure real world scenario maximum usable capacity by driving from 100% to 0% and back to 100%. Then you can validate nominal capacity by DC charge total value and values from trip meter. But they are not the same because of energy losses. I planned to repeat this test after 1 year and compare those values. Which capacity you think is set by Tesla?

This guy has an interesting range test, even though it wasn't the LFP, it's worth the look kzread.info/dash/bejne/loZ7o9WjmLKofNo.html

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Iain. I have a look. I’ve watched some of their videos in the past but not recently. That car is also a performance M3. I’m really not overly concerned about range these days. Before you own an EV it seems like it’s the main thing to worry about but in reality you never really need to use it all unless you take risks or travel somewhere remote just like an ICE car. A theoretical 4% range loss from a guesstimate figure is nothing to worry about. Your hwy range will be a figure much less than this. Might be worth me doing a range test like these guys to help people thinking about buy a Model 3 with LFP.

@nixontech

Жыл бұрын

@@notinthemanual a range test similar to what they’ve done in the SR+ is what I’d really like to see. I noted that there was this buffer when the systems says 0% and was curious what the LFP might give you. Why am I concerned about range? Simple. It’s usually me and my car that does the longer trips. Down the coast, out to Canberra or up the mountains. Often the further you go from the city the less you find chargers

@notinthemanual

Жыл бұрын

@@nixontech Yes I agree it’s harder the further you are from the city but the superchargers a spaced pretty well along the main routes. It can sometimes depend on the route you have to take. My car averages 140-145Wh/km in good warmish weather. My 55kWh LFP has approx 50kWh available to zero that means 340-360km of range but I like to keep a buffer so I aim to charge every 250-300km. With the 60kWh LFP add around 40km. After zero there is 3-5kWh in reserve so 20-40km more before the car totally dies. You want to avoid this. Range tests are hard to make repeatable as there are so many variables to control. My tip is to use an app like A Better Route Planner to plan out your trip beforehand. I have found this to be extremely accurate and a way to put your mind at ease. I’d also suggest that you watch this video kzread.info/dash/bejne/dKGWk9SOmLaelMo.html