If you liked Vincent's explanations, check out the last time he joined us for more of this: kzread.info/dash/bejne/qn5_3K2bodvHYKQ.html FOR A LIMITED TIME: Get 10% OFF of GN Store Tools purchases, including toolkits, Modmats, and Solder Mats: store.gamersnexus.net/ Grab a GN Tear-Down Toolkit! store.gamersnexus.net/products/gamersnexus-tear-down-toolkit Buy a Project & Solder Mat for a high-quality heat resistant surface: store.gamersnexus.net/products/gn-project-soldering-mat Get a GN Large PC Building Modmat! store.gamersnexus.net/products/large-modmat-gn15-anniversary Or consider a Medium Modmat! store.gamersnexus.net/products/medium-modmat-v2 Vincent Agosta is available for hire. Find Vincent Agosta's law firm here: www.agostalaw.com/

@mightym

7 ай бұрын

Thanks for the legal overview, but given the low bar for a utility patent, isn't that philosophically restrictive for innovation in design and manufacturing efficiencies? Not needing to actually produce a product allows companies to mass patent theoretical designs without an intention to develop, e.g. amazon, preventing other companies from actually bringing those designs to market.

@dontsupportrats4089

7 ай бұрын

But UM, which🙂 RGB fan makes my computer have the most FPS??

@Lil_Lobo

7 ай бұрын

Could the fact they didn't Include Corsair help Phanteks and Thermaltake in their lawsuit?

@thisisashan

7 ай бұрын

My question is... which one performs the best? Because the massive expenses for the trial may not be worth it for the ones trying this who are underperforming :P

@frederickpallas7130

7 ай бұрын

GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE, do that ,company . And we are all in (pls do some standard in GNU Noctua) And this is obvious BS, every lawyer needs to talk 20 minutes to an engi,and thats done.OVER

Dude proceeds to hire an attorney for the most accurate view on current news about a fucking fan. Never change, Steve. We love you.

@GamersNexus

7 ай бұрын

hahaha. That's what makes the job fun!

@mateofantasma

7 ай бұрын

I was about to write the same thing. Well said!

@MrKobold22

7 ай бұрын

You could say we are a fan of that.

@CosmicCleric

7 ай бұрын

@@GamersNexus Steve, please, Mastodon.

@seniorzolo3433

7 ай бұрын

I got to the 2:48 mark and was going to type exactly this, but naturally found that someone else already had.

GN is a perfect example of how investigative journalism is supposed to work. When a source either cannot or does not wish to be identified, their legitimacy and the impact of what they have to say rests entirely on public trust in the institution passing on their statements. For GN this trust is high, making it the ideal place to turn to for whistleblowers. Kudos to Steve and his team for creating this environment and giving us all a place we can turn to for facts in a world oversaturated with bullshit.

@davidjohn4835

6 ай бұрын

well said!

@SuryanIsaac

6 ай бұрын

+1 for this

The biggest takeaway I got from this is that I need to manufacture my own fans and sell them.

It is crazy to me that you can successfully defend yourself in court (ie you have not done anything wrong) but still can't claim legal fees from the prosecution.

@Duckhook12

7 ай бұрын

The idea is that if you are genuinely hurt you should be able to sue and collect damages against anyone no matter how powerful they are and not be afraid of retribution in the case of losing. The case of the old lady getting burned by coffee from McDonald's. She had a genuine argument and won, no matter the smear campaign ran against her, but it required her taking on a 200 billion dollar corporation that if she lost she would be in the hole for millions of dollars to McDonald's lawyers. We see it all the time as long as you have money you can get away with things. So do we also want these powerful people and corporation to punish us for daring to speak up.

@VitroVine

7 ай бұрын

​@@Duckhook12they just do it the other way now, sue someone themselves and force the victim to rack up legal fees, not caring if they actually win or not

@Darkurge666

7 ай бұрын

​@@Duckhook12The court should decide what costs are reasonable, and not accept costs because the defending side decided to hire an army of lawyers.

@discrep

7 ай бұрын

@@VitroVine Judges can dismiss frivolous lawsuits and award attorneys' fees. Like the lawyer in the video said, the bar is set high, but it's definitely clearable if the plaintiff is suing in bad faith. Case in point: Trump sued Hillary Clinton, James Comey and a dozen other defendants, in 2022, for conspiring to ruin his 2016 campaign by alleging that Russia helped him. The judge dismissed the suit because he didn't articulate any harm done to him, and couldn't because he won the actual election! The judge allowed all of the defendants to submit their legal fees and sanctioned Trump and his attorneys around $1 million.

@ocularcavity8412

7 ай бұрын

@@Duckhook12 That is true you don't want to have a Large Corp punishing someone for losing a law suit, but it is a pointless discussion to make in patent law because the Legal system is so BROKEN in this day and age that any Company Suing can punish you BEFORE THEY WIN, by stopping your production freezing your profit, and burying you in legal fees even if they are 100% in the wrong and if you don't have at least $100,000 to defend you are DONE, so most give up without a fight. The Fact there are Shell Companies that exist ONLY to Patent Troll and ARE PROFITTALBE proves that Patent law NEEDS an overhaul and unfortunately Refunding Legal Funds to the winner is THE LOWEST of concerns in this space

Ton of respect for you guys consulting actual experts when you're dealing with unfamiliar topics.

@anteshell

7 ай бұрын

Well, Steve's name is not Rick Harrison and doesn't work in a pawnshop. ;P

Realistically, this means the chances of fan connections cohabitating is zero. This is going to end up the same place as LED software, or buttons on the back of controllers, or.. the list goes on. Yet another consumer friendly innovation lost to litigation. Maybe one day we'll see a manufacturer offer their tech as a licensed compatibility endorsement, that feels like a win for everyone. So we won't

@bm373

7 ай бұрын

Not worth it ✌️🇺🇸

@SkateClipsAndTips

7 ай бұрын

Unifans should be a standard with all fans

@floorgang420

7 ай бұрын

Windows may force a Windows 12 compatible RGB fans, lol, we might never know.

@crisnmaryfam7344

7 ай бұрын

Many manufacturers Do just this. The funny thing is, The "pogo pin" design, Used by Lian Li here, is one of these things, I have game Controllers / Charger bases for them that use this Exact power transfer/connection design.

@shadow7037932

7 ай бұрын

They easiest way to fix the RGB stuff would be on AMD/Intel stepping in and standardizing it at the chip set and chip set driver level.

What Lian Li has managed so far is make me aware that some of their competitors have better fan connections than Lian Li does. Good to know for future purchases.

@goldenhate6649

7 ай бұрын

Probably the reason for the lawsuit. Rather than make their stuff better, just get rid of the competition outright.

@ACID_MENTE

7 ай бұрын

i think its less about fan connections n more about ppl switchin over to other brands regardless cus LL has universally hated software

@DakkonDS

7 ай бұрын

Same goes with everything that company makes. It's all overpriced trash that steals from others all the damn time. I hope they lose hard and are slapped even harder in a countersuit. Stupid greedy bastards

@eduardoarancibia169

6 ай бұрын

Honestly, that was my first take on the subjetct

@Farren246

6 ай бұрын

What I've learned from researching cases for my last build in 2020, is that anything you can do, Phanteks either can do better, or will not do at all... Of course, before this video I wasn't looking to buy any fans, so I only knew of the existence of Lian Li's self-linking fans. Now I know that Phanteks also has a linking fan, I know it is better even without watching the video.

I enjoy how extra this is. Could have just said "lian li is suing" and left it at that, but you guys have such a knack for finding and presenting really interesting stuff in what most people wouldn't care about

@MyMomsADadNow

6 ай бұрын

I don't think it's that easy or simple. There is a lot of nuance, and the implications are large. The RGB fan market would suffer, and the consumers would pay more for products, should Lian Li win the suit (not that I'm picking sides). It's about having a free and fair market, more than anything.

I pulled over at a gas station, bought some snacks and a drink to watch this. Your pursuit for technology/gaming consumer journalism is unmatched and worth the watch.

@GamersNexus

7 ай бұрын

I actually really appreciate this kind of comment because it's so relatable. Have done similar for channels I like when they drop big videos. Thank you for the kind words! Enjoy the snacks!

@Legionnegaming

7 ай бұрын

Your*

@ImNotHere4750

7 ай бұрын

In 3 minutes?

@zedvids

7 ай бұрын

@@Legionnegaming auto correct 😔

@zedvids

7 ай бұрын

@@ImNotHere4750 no, i meant anything they report that's a topic of legal or consumer reporting is worth watching, not that i finished it in 3 min

Man, Vincent does a great job explaining what is going on to your viewers. You really got yourself an excellent consultant.

@GamersNexus

7 ай бұрын

It's great that he's also not as close to this industry -- he comes in with excellent questions I wouldn't have thought of.

@Erteywie

7 ай бұрын

@@GamersNexus I would love to hear/read his questions he has for you. We never get to see the tables turned.

@vaffangool9196

7 ай бұрын

​@@GamersNexus *I realise it's difficult* when all three involved parties are advertisers on your channel, but don't you think you should have established a bit of historical context here? Thermaltake have extensive prior form playing it fast and loose with other people's intellectual property, having famously ripped off case designs from Case Labs and Fractal Design, and having somewhat less famously produced inferior knockoffs of cooling solutions from Corsair, NZXT, EK, Bitspower, and Koolance.

I worked for several years as an expert witness in an obscure technology. This was an incredibly good educational video. Great guest, really good questions. Fantastic job!

Fun fact, Thermaltake had a 4x 3.5" hdd 'hot swap' case that fit in 3x5.25 bays, that had a similar connector used to connect (electrically) their fan to the front housing... and this was back in 2008.

5:53 Corsair: Yo dawg, we heard you liked computers and fans, so we put computers in your fans so you can computer while you fan.

Lian li price gouges for their uni fans. There needs to be competition and competitive pricing

@defeqel6537

7 ай бұрын

Competition can come in many forms though, Thermaltake is IMO clearly infringing here , while others have innovated (edit: actually, not so sure any more, their design allows for a totally different pin layout, etc.). I can come up with 3 external daisy chaining designs from the top of my head, that would not infringe, also a couple designs with internal wiring, though those might infringe on Phanteks' design

@Bayofthe91st

7 ай бұрын

And then there is Jonsbo with their ridiculously cheaper option, just search JONSBO ZG-120BR

@goldenhate6649

7 ай бұрын

@@defeqel6537 Was going to say. This whole lawsuit sounds like Lian being like "waaah I though of it first therefore its mine!" Rather than any real basis for complaint. I can't imagine their going to be allowed to say the idea of daisy chaining parts is somehow theirs and only theirs. If they do, I know who I ain't buying from ever again.

@triadwarfare

7 ай бұрын

​​@@goldenhate6649isn't this every lawsuit ever, where executives are crying "our R&D dept came up with it first so you should pay up or we'll sue you to oblivion". Look how great it turned up for Asetek. It did so well, Asetek licensees are getting bad quality control.

@mrniusi11

7 ай бұрын

Intellectual Property laws are bullshit. They should not exist in a free market society. Using the guns of government to protect an idea is retarded. Meanwhile in California you can steal actual physical products without penalty. Maybe I should drive over and steal $899 in Lian-Li fans.

Thermaltake used a pogopin/pad system almost 15 years ago with their Level 10 case's side panel's power and fan's lighting functionality. Hard to see them losing with such a long per-existence. Even without a patent for this, its clearly pre-existing art and Lian Li needs to lose this frivolous lawsuit.

@MazeFrame

6 ай бұрын

Was going to mention the same. Way back when, I considered the Level 10 case because it had the side-intake fan without the cable-plugging hassle.

It is incredible that you actually hired an attorney for this, I admire this channel's dedication to accuracy and information. Keep up the good work! This was really interesting.

A 45 min video this detailed, you even hired 2 attorneys, about a fan lawsuit is insane! Steve you are legendary, never change!

@Dowlphin

7 ай бұрын

It is also insane in a negative way, systemically, that businesses would fight over such a non-genius idea. This causes patent holders to harass the competition a little into making their stuff different enough just to dodge problems, but the imitators will always be at the ready, and this is even celebrated as competition, so why do patents even exist in the USA? 😏 So this is two very unimaginative parties where one suddenly had a semi-lame idea and the other is too dumb to have it themselves or didn't want to, but now that one business boldly dared to comm-connect adjacent fans directly, others are afraid they're gonna go bankrupt if they don't jump on the bandwagon. This is comedy-level society decay in action, and it is normalized, thus many people don't perceive the inherent cringe.

@16vSciroccoboi

7 ай бұрын

​@@Dowlphinyour comment is cringe.

@michaelbuto305

7 ай бұрын

@@Dowlphin Because its in USA. Thats the reason why people still manifacture in China or other country because these patent stuff for these days mostly bs. Without talking in moral high ground, consumer careless about patent other than the product in the end.

The fact that all of these fan connectors are not compatible with each other is anti-competitive in nature and does not keep the costs down for the consumer. Interconnecting fans is a nice evolution in fan tech, but I feel it needs to happen via ISO standards so manufacturers have to meet a minimum compatibility level.

@uclajd

7 ай бұрын

Why do you hate innovation? Please stay away from American technology companies.

@christopherjames9843

7 ай бұрын

Proprietary connectors isn't "innovation" dude. Innovation is when standards are adhered to.@@uclajd

@Jet-ij9zc

7 ай бұрын

​@uclajd my guy both lian li and thermaltake are Taiwanese companies and Phanteks is Dutch. There isn't a single US company involved.

@hey01e5

7 ай бұрын

THAT would be ideal

@Kakizaki1707

7 ай бұрын

​@@uclajd"American" you say 😂

You blew me away with this, I'm such a fan of your work, to hanks for keeping it cool and collected about how simple this appears

Honestly, this has been the best report on what's actually happening from the pc world and legal stand point. I watch a lot of other channels and this was a joy to watch. SUSCRIBED!

The case where the other party got their own patent is dangerous business. Getting the other parties patent invalidated as a mistakenly issued patent ("it only covers what ours already claimed") is very hard because "the patent office doesn't make mistakes", and getting it invalidated on the grounds that things in their claims are not patentable can backfire massively and invalidate your own patent.

@2xKTfc

7 ай бұрын

Indeed. "it is, in a sense, that simple", said no patent lawyer ever 😅

@tilburg8683

7 ай бұрын

I hope you're right

@wubbsy

7 ай бұрын

One can hope

@bdhale34

7 ай бұрын

The patent office didn't make a mistake in this case either. They were objectively correct in granting the patents. Corsair is the only fan that actually directly violates Lian Li's patent, same power placement and same joining mechanism, they are blatantly ripping off Lian Li's design but LL is too scared to actually go after the one company that actually IS violating the patent.

@goldenhate6649

7 ай бұрын

@@bdhale34 I think part of LL's calculation here is corsair has gotten a rep in some groups of being 'cheap' (I will never buy a corsair product again after mutliple failures, along with MSI). LL doesn't expect to compete with Corsair in the same way it will with the named companies, and they are banking on the Court being stupid.

Hats off to Steve and the team, really interesting video. Keep it coming!!

You can just see the passion behind Steve and his Team! Top-notch work every time! Thank you, GN!

Definitely appreciate this kind of content. Needs to happen more

If Lian Li don't like this, I would ask them how they would like it done? Or are they arguing that no one but them can make fans that connect without cables? If so, that's insane.

@Elvewizzy.

7 ай бұрын

Correct. they felt the Patent is a daisy chain able LED fan and all different forms of it. The irony being that they only sued down, not up. (Corsair)

@JJFX-

7 ай бұрын

Asetek has entered the chat.

@benruss4130

7 ай бұрын

@@Elvewizzy. Thats because Corsair would have the resources to not only win, but also counter sue.

@boeubanks7507

7 ай бұрын

Well, Corsair's design and implementation is so different that there is no case. Also, it is a logical outgrowth of cabling fans together. There really is no argument here. Asetek really got a friendly judge and jury on their case. I doubt anyone realized how expansive that ruling would be. As they were talking about, you have to make lay people understand technical aspects outside of their area of expertise. Sure, if you had Louis Rossman on the jury, the technical aspect would not be an issue. Although you would likely lose the case because you let Louis Rossman on the jury. That would be tantamount to legal malpractice.

@benruss4130

7 ай бұрын

@@boeubanks7507 I dont know about the Corsair style, but as an engineer, Phanteks style is pretty diferent

Thank you for proposing this kind of content and working so well to help us understand !

@Craftimonium

7 ай бұрын

Same I’m commenting to help for the algorithm

Love your deep dive videos like this. Keep up the great work Steve and team. I appreciate you hard work and time

Love these long deep dives into industry topics. Thank you.

special report is the GN version of EMERGENCY MEETING

@GamersNexus

7 ай бұрын

So... which one is sus? Lian Li or Phanteks & Thermaltake?

@acourierofourhopesandaamer8303

7 ай бұрын

@@GamersNexus in the spirit of the game, ejection by public vote 😆

I never knew this was even happening but thanks for the high quality report on it I learned some things today.

These videos are so professional Steve, nice work.

This channel is awesome. Please never use forgettable clickbait titles. Video titles like this will make it possible to find this video even years from now.

It would be smarter for these 3 brands to create and share a single standard to take on bigger competitors like Corsair

@dimples282

7 ай бұрын

Definitely, this would be a ripe candidate for rolling into OpenPleb.

@markdeckard7651

7 ай бұрын

You don't seem to understand how business works. Lian Li isn't obligated to let everyone else copy their homework for the sake of a SiNgLe sTaNdArD

@MrRyanfisher

7 ай бұрын

They won't. It's easier for strays to fight for scraps, than it is for them to take on the big dog.

@Otto45

7 ай бұрын

Dividing up profits for the better good of the consumers?! BLASPHEMY!!

@mjc0961

7 ай бұрын

@@markdeckard7651 LianLi's connector sucks anyway. They should use Thermaltake's magnetic system, it's by far the easiest to work with. Perhaps Thermaltake will let LianLi copy off their homework since LianLi got an F when they did it themselves.

This is why I love GN! This is, by far, one of the most educational videos I've ever watched. Steve and Vincent both took complex topics and made it understandable for us lay people. The fact that I just watched an almost 45-minute video... and it felt like about 15 minutes... wow! Another well-done video.

As someone who studied business law in college, this lawsuit is quite interesting, both from a legal and a consumer standpoint. Thank you, Steve, for the deep dive!

Hello everyone at GN! My good friend Mike recently passed away and was a big fan (no pun intended) of the channel. He retained a lot of the info he got from your awesome videos and when we went out for our biweekly taco lunch he would give me the run down. His pc case, AIO and case fans are all based off of your tests. Thank you for all you do GN. Keep up the great work.

@GamersNexus

7 ай бұрын

Hi Edward. I'm so sorry to hear about your friend Mike. It's very kind of you to take the time to tell us about him. Thank you for sharing how he connected with our content and how you guys would share it. I hope you are doing OK in these circumstances.

@sgtmonoxide

7 ай бұрын

@@GamersNexusthank you very much.

Thank you for making this video. When you brought up this lawsuit in one of your news videos, I was disappointed to see no one talking about it in the comments.

The warrantees at Asus background with Vincent looks almost like a friend's backyard in Cary, when I was younger. Great work as always! Thanks so much for the in depth reporting.

Incredible coverage. Thank you again Steve

Thank you for all of your extensive coverage on this and pretty much everything else PC and gaming related. You guys are the truth. We appreciate you all.

Hopefully Lian Li loses. I don't want to see creativity monopolized.

@freighter1097

7 ай бұрын

What creativity? Their design got copied pretty clearly. Who else was making linkable fans like this before them?

@BM-wf9uf

7 ай бұрын

@@freighter1097 It's likely most companies making fans had some kind of research like that going on. None of these companies had a problem with fans being virtually identical for the last 20 years...

Your channel reminds me of those old educational videos from the 50's and 60's that were entertaining and informative. The visuals alongside the great narrative component make for an entertaining watch that just FLIES by so quickly. This didn't feel like a 45 minute show! I WANTED MORE BY THE END!

@whoevertf

5 ай бұрын

Without the propaganda :v

I love this content and I appreciate how you keep opinion out of it and bring in legal experts. You and your team are amazing. Thank you for all your informative videos!!!

Great video! Don't ever change! Informative, was engaged throughout the video and loved listening to Vincent explain everything in detail. Great work everyone at GN.

I love the professionalism of the channel, keep up the good work!

Amazing video and great to see Vincent, his ability to explain the legal side is wild.

You guys actually hired a lawyer for commentary? These videos have gotten top tier quality, with awesome effort actually put in. Thanks for always doing a good job!

I get why Lian Li is doing this, but the fact they’ve changed their connector standard not once, but twice in a few years is hostile to consumers IMO. My friend wanted to add SL Infinity to his SL V2 Fans, but he would have needed to buy *another* $90 fan set+hub. Lian Li doesn’t include the hub-specific cables with single fans, even if the fans are compatible with his existing hub.

@matthewb1601

7 ай бұрын

Sounds like an Apple move.

@666Tomato666

7 ай бұрын

@@matthewb1601 they learned from the "best" (just not the best for the consumer)

@seanlacroix

7 ай бұрын

I would think that the fact that phanteks was given its own patent proves that it’s different enough from Lian Li’s fan. Otherwise would they even be given the patent? As for Thermaltake I have no idea how that will work out.

@666Tomato666

7 ай бұрын

@@seanlacroix "proves that it’s different enough from Lian Li’s fan." hahahahahahahah oh, wait, you're serious? let me laugh even harder HAHAHAHAHAHAHA USPO is rubber-stamping anything and everything submitted, "novelty" doesn't even exist in their lexicon.

@seanlacroix

7 ай бұрын

@@666Tomato666 they wouldn’t give you a patent if it infringed on another brands. Thats why the patent office does a search when you apply for a patent to make sure you’re not infringing on someone else’s.

Love this sort of industry coverage and really appreciate Vincent being brought on to discuss.

Talk about above and beyond. Props Steve.

Good stuff man!! Much love from Texas!

Lian Li is definitely reaching, just seems like they're trying to stop as many smaller companies as they can from following the idea of multiple fans getting power from a single cable, but it's pretty amusing that they wouldn't even try to go after Corsair when their design is actually better than Lian Li's, because they know it would be a waste of time to go after a company that's larger than them. That's why I think they're just trying to reach for as much as they can while they still can, before the design eventually becomes a common accepted standard. I hope Lian Li loses, because we should be beyond the days of needing a million freaking fan and RGB cables in our cases and they shouldn't get to decide who gets to do it. When Volvo was the first to include a seat belt in their vehicles, they didn't block any other car companies from also using seat belts, because they valued safety of the customer over profit.

@nanoflower1

7 ай бұрын

Or they would wait until after (if) they win the lawsuit against Phanteks and Thermal Take. If they were to win both law suits I'm sure they would then go after Corsair. No need to attack the big company until you know you have a solid case with solid wins behind you.

@Shiny49GER

7 ай бұрын

They can go after Corsair if they win against smaller companies because the result of the legal procedure will give an indication for future cases. It's never smart to go against bigger competitors first, because most of the time they have an internal patent department and a big budget for legal procedures.

@cablefeed3738

7 ай бұрын

​@@Shiny49GERYes, that means their case isn't strong enough to win against the larger more powerful legal team, which means it should just get thrown out now.

@ZacharyHawkshaw

7 ай бұрын

@@nanoflower1 True. Still feels like Lian Li is salty though, because Corsair's already done it better and I don't think they'll get that much of an edge over them (in my opinion) if they rely on software alone for control, because I prefer physical RGB controllers over software-based controllers. Still have my Corsair SP120s kicking after over 5 years with a physical controller.

@user-tk5dt7rp2f

7 ай бұрын

This is the cheapest way of going after all of them. They go against a smaller company, without the capital to hold up the case in court. This means they get a quicker verdict, while spending less money. If they win, then they can use the verdict to confidently go after the bigger companies. Kinda sucks because they are killing competition, but the competition is copying their innovation, which Lian Li had to spend 100s of thousands if not millions on R&D to create.

Instantly dropped my other video to be here

@quintrapnell3605

7 ай бұрын

Same

@redbloodedamerican2346

7 ай бұрын

Lol same

@freighter1097

7 ай бұрын

Why? This one isn't going to leave.

@redbloodedamerican2346

7 ай бұрын

@@freighter1097 WHOOSH! Because this one is more interesting. It's not rocket science

@freighter1097

7 ай бұрын

@@redbloodedamerican2346 If you say so. I wouldn't leave one video I was watching for another. Granted I don't use any notifications so I don't get notified when a new video is released. I just see them when I load KZread and click on subscriptions or in this case, it gets recommended.

Excellent video Steve!

Well done. This was a proper discussion about the likely nuances of a legal case related to computer hardware, and was interesting for me as someone who only cares that they can have good quality RGB fans without loads of wires everywhere. I hope the result will benefit the consumer who usually ends up paying the bill. Keep up the good work.

Quality journalism as usual.

this channel never disappoints, absolutely insane how deep you dug into this. hands down the best tech channel on the platform, not even close.

VERY smart move to hire a professional in an area that you aren't perfect in. Thank you GN for doing your best for anything you come across. 10/10

Keep it the quality and thoughtful videos. The level of effort is clear. Team GN!

The fact that LL didn't include Corsair in this lawsuit says it all, they're just looking to bully who they can.

@user-kf5qf4op1i

7 ай бұрын

Nope, this case will affect Corsair as well when they win.

@JonDoe..

7 ай бұрын

@@user-kf5qf4op1i LOL.

@KG_BM

7 ай бұрын

​@user-kf5qf4op1i yes but only corsair is big enough between all of them to not get bullied around and can afford to not drown I'm litigation... we all love Liam like, but in this case, fuck them

@Tom_Drexel

7 ай бұрын

Not rly. Corsair design and implementation so different that there would be zero case to sue. Even if Corsair wasn’t the large entity that it is, Lian li couldn’t possibly win.

@ligmasack9038

7 ай бұрын

Pretty typical for a CHINESE COMPANY!

Lian Li is reaching and trying to get what they can out of the competition.

@mrbigbrownbeaver

7 ай бұрын

As they should. They took the risk with a new design and it paid off.

@capablanc

7 ай бұрын

​@@mrbigbrownbeaverConsumers cheering for corporate railroading. What a world

@u9Nails

7 ай бұрын

I think there is reason to defend your patent. It is your exclusive design and a competitive advantage that you created which makes an impact in the market. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a patent office to begin with.

Retired Silicon Valley patent attorney here -- THANK YOU! Thank you for a detailed presentation!

This was quite well done, thank you for taking the time to make this content. It was an excellent glimpse into the patent world. It's likely everything I will say here has already been said, but I wasn't going to read through 1,881 comments to find out. The comment about "successful at getting a patent so there must be some merit to the patent-ability" has some, but not much merit IMO in this case. It's more enforce-ability than patent-ability that matters. Many patents have been granted, and deemed not enforceable. Also, most are simply not challenged, therefore no determination is made as to enforce-ability of said patent. So, simply having a patent does not mean it's enforceable. If it was a fishing lure we were talking about, I'd give that patent much weight, but in areas like these fan patents, not so much (but the reason is for a different discussion). That issue of Lian Li's patent being "valid" was touched on, but IMO I think that is the biggest issue in this case. Was there prior art (likely yes for some if not all of the patent claims), and if so what was it and how is it applicable? Clearly just daisy-chaining fans/LED control is not unique/non-obvious in and of it self as was stated. It's each individual claim to how that was done that has to stand. My initial reaction is, Lian Li will have a tough time defending most of their patent claims. And lastly, different rules apply in different countries. Thanks again for something I would have never guessed I would have spent near an hour of my day occupied with.

First rate, unbiased reporting as usual...thank you all!!

I'm looking forward to learning the resolution of this case. I myself own several Phanteks D30s so I felt Steve's pain watching him use those connectors. I'll say the Thermaltake and Lian Li look far more enjoyable to couple together.

@matthewb1601

7 ай бұрын

To think, Phanteks probably went the way they did specifically to avoid patent infringement.

@TroidHunter

7 ай бұрын

not gonna lie, I only realized that I owned the Lian Li fans mentioned in the video about halfway through, because they were so nice to use that I kinda forgot that they're RGB fans. RGB stuff is usually such a pile of nonsense to work with that I end up avoiding it even for client builds, but the unifans are great.

@jamesbyrd3740

6 ай бұрын

@@matthewb1601 they absolutely made that terrible design to avoid the patent. thermaltakes design seems by far the best, but they're more likely to lose. Sad, because these are 2 of the best pc hardware manufacturers being patent trolled by LL. And they're not even going after corsair, who seems to have actually copied them.

Thanks the attorney was awesome at explaining things in an understandable way.

journalism at its best independent, factual and consulting experts on unfamiliar ground bravo

this is like Atari suing Nintendo for making a system that a game cartridge plugs into

If I were on the jury... Phanteks is plainly different enough to be obvious to even non-techies, and the patent office giving them a patent of their own is a signal to me that it's different. Lian Li is reaching here and there's no infringement. Thermaltake on the other hand, Lian Li might have a case, but they're going to have to work to convince me there's infringement here as even to a non-techie juror, they're different takes on the same concept of daisy chaining a fan.

@pfeilspitze

7 ай бұрын

Unfortunately, the patent office tends to prefer giving out patents in ambiguous cases, so the fact that they got one isn't particularly strong evidence of anything.

@bosstowndynamics5488

7 ай бұрын

@@pfeilspitze Phantek's design is different from the Lian Li design in a number of ways, including the fact that Lian Li explicitly specified connectors on opposite sides of the fan and Phantek's connectors are on the same side. The fact they got their own patent doesn't need to be strong evidence because it's not their only evidence, it's just an additional factor in their favour.

@Henrik_Holst

7 ай бұрын

I would argue that all of these patents does not meet the non-obvious rule, any engineer put to the task of solving how to connect fans without cables would come up with solutions like any of these.

@biscuit715

7 ай бұрын

​@@Henrik_Holst yeah, how else is someone supposed to do this? It's not like Lian li own the concept of pin/pad. Were thermal take and phanteks supposed to use induction or something?

@MacTX

7 ай бұрын

@@pfeilspitze you're not thinking like a juror, we're talking about the lowest common denominator of society here.

As always thank you steve for this amazing videos. And als always it would be amazing if the industry would agree on one standard than we could just match any fans we want.

Special report! Let's go!

42:00 I think this is a major issue. The only requirement for a patent to have validity seems to be if it was ever approved, and there's almost no scrutiny at the patent office.

@theepicduck6922

7 ай бұрын

Tends to be why patents are filed (at least recommended) early and quickly.

it was only time...i figured this would happen when the unifan first came to market.

@Blafard666

7 ай бұрын

For real, it seemed that everybody copied their concept in a matter of months ...

@Crunchyalmondmilk

7 ай бұрын

Chinese company Sama doesn't even bother changing the name. they literally have an o11 copy an a daisy chain fan called 'uni fan'

@DerangedCoconut808

7 ай бұрын

@@Crunchyalmondmilk well thats given. i mean look at the thermal grizzlies intel socket hold down, that was swiftly copied within weeks.

@bltzcstrnx

7 ай бұрын

​@@Crunchyalmondmilkthey probably don't target the US market. So the patent didn't matter to them.

Here we go.... Thanks (again), Steve.

As a design engineer, and patent holder, I would say you need to find a patent attorney that also is an engineer to talk to, and yes, you can easily find that. Getting a regular attorney is like getting a random guy on the street and talk to him. One essential point not brought up here is the prior art search. A new patent must include a search for prior art, and include this in the patent, and if necessary, explain why this new innovation is patentable and not violating existing patents. This is both to help the patent office decide whether to grant the patent or not. So the first question would be if these patents include the competitors prior patents and how they argue this idea is 1) Novel, 2) Non-Obvious, and 3) Useful over the existing art (patents). This should be an easy discussion, but there is no way to split the technical from the legal here. The technical *is* the legal. This appears to be completely missing unfortunately.

If the judges are sane Lian Li will get laughed out the door, it's geometry isn't patentable. So the placement of connectors on a fan casing with already limited space to place said connectors would be considered something that's obvious due to geometry and not patentable on its own. They can certainly sue for their total implementation on their specific design, but just the placement of connectors for power/data is definitely not going to be enforceable via a patent.

@concinnus

7 ай бұрын

In a sane world, sure, but in that world Asetek's pump on block patent would have never been granted.

@mjc0961

7 ай бұрын

@@concinnus Exactly. In a sane world, Asetek would have also been laughed out of court, but clearly we do not live in a sane world.

@Username-2

7 ай бұрын

About 70% of judges are not sane and/or lacking basic reasoning skills so I’d say the odds are on Lian lis side

@hashbrown777

7 ай бұрын

I mean you can just see how much Steve struggled with LL's vs Tt's magnetic connexion how different the mechanisms are.. They didn't somehow patent simply pushing fans together because Tt has its own patent which the office wouldn't've allowed

@bm373

7 ай бұрын

99% of statistics are made up on the spot. Trust me bro ✌️🇺🇸

If only LTT was this thorough.. Great job guys!

@_BangDroid_

6 ай бұрын

@@kamran2035 Exactly. Quantity over quality

Good job Steve! Interesting topic. I worked for company with R&D and Product development. We have discussed several times when to have a an Engineering patent or block patent. As you release a patent for different regions of globe it involves huge costs, and you present your secrets in a document that the competition will try to reverse engineer. If it’s complicated R&D it might be worth it. Often it’s not worth it. This seems like an odd patent that can easily be reverse engineered by avoiding some key elements from Lian Lis patent. Edit1, As I look tru the patent It would probably be better to split it in two, as it seems to be a block patent and not and engineering patent. 1, that cover physical connection types 2, electrical connection types for fans and rgb.

I came to KZread to figure out which RGB lights i needed to hook up to ICUE, and I still don't have answers

"We don't know the intricacies of this situation." A bunch of other KZreadrs: "So we'll just vomit up some conjecture." Gamers Nexus: "So we'll hire lawyers to educate us."

This is a stupid patent case. You can't patent shapes or location of power delivery ports. This means if they allowed this mobile phones (that are all candy bar shaped) with their USB-C power output at the bottom, shouldn't exist. Fans are fans, putting a PCB, power output, and LEDs on a square fan isn't something anyone should or could patent. It's a tech that's generic like a PC case. How many designs on cases have Lian Li and Thermaltake "stolen"? This is fracking laughable.

sunday morning with high quality content from steve .. i am in !

This is good stuff. Not that I could follow the whole thing since laws are very technical but still, I learn quite a bit.

Here’s hoping the good folks at Lian Li lose this case! 🤞🏼

@Roland_Deschain

7 ай бұрын

Why? If everybody infringes on patents, there would be no incentive for innovation.

@Serusshi

7 ай бұрын

​@@Roland_DeschainCuriosity and desire for innovation drives innovation. Patents only work in fairytale land where humans aren't susceptible to corruption and greed. In our case, patents forces people to "innovate" out of necessity, not genuine desire to create something new. It's reinventing the wheel for zero reason.

@sndrc9

7 ай бұрын

@@Roland_Deschain This lawsuit is basically making daisy-chaining fans illegal. Imagine someone had a patent for all charger locations. You will have charging cables sticking out the top or all over the sides.

@kyberite

7 ай бұрын

companies that do stuff like this deserve to go under

@sephondranzer

7 ай бұрын

@@Roland_Deschain Because we really don’t need another Asetek situation. Nobody likes a rent-seeker dude.

I think Lian li will lose based on the differences best they can hope for is out of court settlement in my opinion. Many patents don’t always give you the protection you think they do, in short some things can’t be patented. You see this all the time on things like the Dragons Den where people have a patent granted, but it’s so easy to get around it’s not worth anything. I think you’ll find this is the case here.

@bdhale34

7 ай бұрын

Corsair's fans are the only ones that objectively violate the patent. Ironic that they were too scared to go after the one company that actually was copying their design.

@seemlesslies

6 ай бұрын

I think one of the things that needed to be mention is you can get a patient granted for just about anything. The bar for getting a patient is extremely low.

@fridaycaliforniaa236

6 ай бұрын

@@seemlesslies That's what makes phones so expensive. I've read somewhere than 25 % of the whole price of a phone is just for patents =/

Great video. Honestly more than a few journalists could learn something from Steve and GN.

Absolutely great explanation

Not sure how I didn't see this coming. As soon as I started seeing all these fans of similar style come out, I immediately thought, "didn't Lian Li do this already?"

@cardboardpig

7 ай бұрын

Right? So many people getting their knickers in a knot over Lian Li defending their innovations from the usual me-too companies. Lian Li may have made a mistake with their patent, because it has allowed the me-too companies to rip off the idea fairly easily.

@goldenhate6649

7 ай бұрын

@@cardboardpig Counter point, this would give Lian Li a complete monopoly over this kind of fan, cutting out all other competition entirely. That would be like if a motherboard size (say micro mtx) was owned by a single company and you had to give warranties to even use it. Take this one step further. How is this change any different from basically every company in existence making borderline the exact same fans CURRENTLY. Yes blades are different, but to think something as simple as making a customizable length fan chain would be company specific is ridiculous. Like yes they are similar. But they are not the same product, they don't use the same internal components, don't use the same control modules, and don't use the same connectors. This is like Apple suing Samsung because they made a touchscreen phone copying what apple did first. This would be like suing the lego knockoffs because they were too similar to lego even though the rest of the specifications and manufacturing process are different. Now, if Lian Li can PROVE that the other two either reverse engineered or stole corporate secrets, then maybe they have some grounds. But this mostly sounds like the big company creating frivolous lawsuits to scare competitors into surrender. If they REALLY thought this was a true statement, they would have sued Corsair, as is pointed out really early in the video.

@FAINTEN17

7 ай бұрын

@@goldenhate6649your on the money! Greedy companies as always

@gezzca

6 ай бұрын

​@@cardboardpig tbh thermaltake used the same pin style for the fan in the lvl 10 case from 15 years ago to connect the fan directly to the panel it looks like they just moved that into fans connecting that way as an obvious next move.

Another case of if your product is really that good it'll stand out. But pulling these anti consumer law suits really makes me rethink my love of lian li.

@benjaminlynch9958

7 ай бұрын

I think Lian Li would argue that their product DID stand out right up until the point that their patents were violated. It’s not for nothing that they were first to market with this kind of product but also the first to receive patent protection. Imitation is the finest form of flattery after all…

@uclajd

7 ай бұрын

Yeah that's not how patents work bruh.

@mikeschneider9462

7 ай бұрын

@uclajd I didn't say that's how they work. I said if your product is that good it should stand out regardless of the copy cats. Let um make all the fans they want.

@Jet-ij9zc

7 ай бұрын

​@uclajd considering the companies being sued also obtained a patent. The patent office seems to disagree with you

@592Johno

7 ай бұрын

​@@benjaminlynch9958that's not how that works wtf

Interesting topic quality content. Thanks Steve! 🙃

thank you for your work!

All legal matters aside, the Phanteks look much nicer and from my experience perform much better with far better static pressure. Nothing wrong with taking a design and making it superior to benefit consumers. I get a 6 degree celcius difference with Phanteks D30's with my Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090 in a Hyte Y40. (all 120mm, 3 reverse blade intake 3 120mm exhaust, can't fit a rear exhaust due to fan thickness and radiator length) compared to Lian Li V2 unis (4 120mm exhaust, 3 140mm intake) The Phanteks fans are quite literally twice as thick as the Uni and infinity fans. And they look far better with smoother RGB lighting. Using a 360mm aio. They also dunked on the Lian Li Uni Infinity fans (9 in total, Lian Li 011 dynamic evo) vs 9 phanteks d30s. (all 120mm in this case.)

I haven't cared much for Lian Li ever since their daughter company Ssupd screwed over W360 (1/2 of the NCase M1 maker) by not paying him their agreed amount for his work on the Meshlicious design, so this kind of BS from them isn't surprising to me and the fact that they're not going after Corsair, just says to me they're hoping they can out spend Phanteks and Thermaltake in court to win.

Love the functional use of the Monitor Wall. Its not just a background decoration.

thanks for bringing vincent back he is a great addition each time

As as customer this showed me the true face of Liam Li. I didnt buy anything for them but I dont think I will do it in the future either due to this lawsuit. I wish Liam Li losses this because they are poking smaller companies but dont go for bigger ones like Corsair.

@SVT_LIGHTNING

7 ай бұрын

Phanteks should honestly counter sue lian li for copying the t30’s in the pos Lian Li Galahad II Trinity Performance.

@zebobm

7 ай бұрын

Liam Li, the Irish cousin of Lian Li? 😅

@user-kf5qf4op1i

7 ай бұрын

That's cute. Any patent holding company can sue if they feel like their hard work is being stolen. You just showed us your real face. You don't even support the company.

@tygerbyme

7 ай бұрын

@@user-kf5qf4op1i I will be honest with you. In my country until recently the name of Liam Li wasnt even known. In my last build I used Corsair, so yes I never bought Liam Li products thus never supporting then. Ive never said they shouldnt sue but rather how they made the sue look like and what is the sue about. For me it seems Liam Li tries to profit from smaller companies and at the same time trying to eliminate some competition from the market if possible, which is anti-consumer. So yeah keep up supporting them. Ive already made my point.

This would explain why Lian li has yet to make a 140mm uni infinity reverse fan while the other two have them already

@kopzz

7 ай бұрын

Yeah I already dislike them for that (no plan for 140mm reverse when they have o11d evo xl) and now this? I hope LL lose this since it would overall be better for the industry especially for Phanteks one where it is way more different than LL.

@tomshepherd6375

7 ай бұрын

@@kopzz That's what i have been saying to them for while now. May just go with Phanteks swafans at least can clean them easier lol.

One for the algorithm. Awesome content as always Steve.

Great video!