Hello Greg, I have long thought about what I should write in this. First I want to clarify something briefly, at Grit 1200 is the end of CBN. finer is not possible with electroplating, otherwise the particles would disappear in the nickel. I knew exactly why I just sent YOU the plates to test, I knew it follows a fair test that lists the strengths and weaknesses of the plates. the results speak for themselves, I think. a small benefit of the plates you have forgotten.... on these plates, in addition to normal grinding, you can also level the existing bench stones so that they become absolutely flat again. especially for grinders who grind a lot on bench stones, this is a point not to be despised. for me, as a conclusion, I take with me, I can grind any kind of steel effortlessly and prepare it in principle to produce the finish on special stones afterwards. it goes quickly from dull to sharp because of the fast removal. no matter how hard the steel is. thus time saved. thank you again for your great and detailed report. please also say very dear greetings to your camera woman and give the dog a treat from me. best regards to you :)

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you and I am glad our community has you! She said to give you hugs!

@michaell397

4 ай бұрын

It also needs to be noted that although 1200 grit CBN may be the limit in electro plated stones, In risen bond and Metallic bond The grit can go much, much finer. The leader and developer of CBN located in Ukraine, Poltava makes both risen bond and metallic bond down in the 5 to 3 micron size which is much finer than diamond sizes. the reason for this is diamond in the very fine sizes is crushed to the smaller sizes and sifted which allows larger stray diamonds in the mix causing wayward scratches, whereas the CBN is grown to size and is consistent. They are a major producer of industrial machining diamond and cbn products. They can be found here in the U.S. for our uses Under USA Market Sharpening Stones. KnifeMaker/Retired after over 47+ years in the Craft

@schleifjunkieshannsplag8635

4 ай бұрын

@@michaell397 we are talking about electroplated plates. resin bond is a different matter. resin bond for cbn stones makes no sense as i would always prefer diamond here. areas above cbn 1200 grit go in the direction of polishing and diamond is much better suited for this. cbn is better for actual grinding

Very educational and nicely made video. Thanks for broadening my knife sharpening knowledge with these weekly uploads.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for tolerating me. I’m going to go as I go I’m trying to share what I’ve learned. We’re on this journey together and I so much love the comments because I learn more. Imagine where I was only two years ago. Imagine how far we’re all going to go together! God bless

thanks for doing this!

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you 🙏

Thanks for the comparison 👍

@nadm

Жыл бұрын

It was definitely great to try. Thanks for checking it out.

you can most definitely sharpen the Hap40 on the naniwa 😂😂 i sharpen my HAP40 (pretty much the same knife that you have just a gyuto and the european version under the different brand name which is advertised 66-67HRC even) on some cheap Taidea combo stone with no problem

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

I am going to be getting a chart and putting all the different stones out there that can handle the different type of work. I'm glad you had a great experience. I am collecting everything I can. I know some of the better manufacturers as you mention have done a great job with good abrasives. It will be interesting with the ZDP189. I have seen other people as I mentioned in the video who have spent more than 30 minutes on a knife with a regular stone and not had the same results you have.. I know people can take their time. I don't have a lot of time to spend on one knife. I think most people would buy these hard steals so they don't have to sharpen. I definitely would like to be able to use everything so I can get to a much finer edge. I also know that not all steel is he treated to the same hardness. Just because it's Hap40 does it mean it's reached its highest heat treat! I did put a chart in the video showing that some people only heat it to a 64 and so do you have to look at the specs of your individual knife. As always, I'm excited to get information from individuals. I thank you for coming and your support. We will continue to do more testing and we always look for more suggestions from the audience.

@dimmacommunication

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm You can do ZDP189 too. The key as I said it to have less than 4% vanadium :) 👍

@whocares3986

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm You can sharpen any steel on an alumina stone like the Chosera. Alumina can't cut the Vanadium carbide but it can shape matrix. I agree that diamond, CBN, or silicon carbide is better for the 3-4 percent or higher Vanadium steels though. I'm guessing that's what you meant in the video. You can even cut 64+ Rockwell steel with Arkansas stones. It's slow as can be, but it does cut.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

@@whocares3986 Thank you and yes! I didn’t mean to overstep myself. Of course you can get things done but it’s a lot slower on the other stuff. I appreciate the support. I do need to craft my words a little more carefully. Thank you

Thanks for sharing on such an interesting topic, not covered by many people in this world of sharpening! Keep it up!

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Love you brother!!!

Great job!

Nice to see how a softer steel knife sharpens. More like my experience with Chicago Cutlery and the like. Not as sharp as the high carbon steel knives.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you 🙏

Aloha buddy really enjoy your videos

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for watching our videos.

@dadadadave100

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm my pleasure

I keep thinking about buying a ZDP or a HAP40 knife. I guess if I do I have to think about getting new stones also , thanks for the input .

@admirallongstash8056

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. Already I have different stones for polishing my Powder or Carbon steel knives. Now I would need another for the lower grids as well. 🤔 I might decide on that once I need a flattening / trueing stone. That could open the door for knives with an HRC above 65.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

I'm going to have to come out with a chart that shows which ceramic stones are capable of sharpening both. The ZDP knife is extremely hard and it basically is stainless and you won't have to worry about it Edge for a long time. The Hap40 does come in a little lower. Steel ask stainless as well. Again, holds a very long edge. You might have certain ceramic stones in your possession that are able to do the job but not all of them are able to do the job. A lot of it depends on the blacksmith and the heat treat.

@user-xf4es7eh9y

8 ай бұрын

ZDP has nothing but chromium carbides and has ZERO issues sharpening on regular waterstones. it's a cutlery steel. it's designed that way intentionally. Any steel actually intended to be used in kitchen knives will be easy to maintain with nothing but normal gear. HAP40 on the other hand is not. It's a very niche, fringe even, low volume cobalt matrix high speed tool steel that CKTG has promoted for kitchen knives for some reason I don't really understand other than maybe to a laymen it looks good on paper. This is a steel with 8% cobalt and enough vanadium such that you will not have fun trying to grind it with normal whetstones in the sharpening grits. I dont like how CKTG lies to their customers and acts like oh yeah it's not bad to sharpen on your regular whetstones. yeah okay. Maybe if you use your 400 grit in place of your 1k or 2k stone, then you can try to make that argument. Anyhow. To me it makes no sense. The benefit it has over ZDP is that despite the cobalt it is tougher. It's not stainless, it doesn't sharpen nor polish anywhere as easily or nicely, and it doesn't have anywhere near the edge retention of ZDP, but it is tougher and able to get just as hard. One was made specifically for high end kitchen knives. The other was a repurposed tool steel promoted by a major reseller with a lot of influence in the industry.

@user-zx5yd4cf3y

6 ай бұрын

​@@user-xf4es7eh9yagree i use diamonds only to sharp knives with 3%+ vanadium/cobalt/tungsten. Anything other, alox or sic.

@michaell397

4 ай бұрын

@@nadm Neither of those steels are used by blacksmiths. Stock removal only. And consider the Vanadium content in some of more modern super steels. No Ceramic stone can cut Vanadium carbide other thanthe diamond infused ones and the start at around 400 usd per grit. Big Brown Bear has them when in stock. For these, I would suggest diamond or CBN in either a risen or metal matrix stone. Venev, Poltava, Jende. extensively testing the Poltava stones in the tin/Copper filled matrix stones currently. I have a great deal of experience with the Venev resin stones. Grit o matic ahs a good selection of all ot them, Plate and matrix. KnifeMaker

Another interesting topic. Have you formed an opinion yet on CBN vs. Diamond? Been looking for kangaroo tail with a bench mount haven't found any. Do you have a link for yours? Thanks!

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

From what Hans has said (please look at the pinned condiment above) you can only go to a 1200 grit. To me that might be a limitation. I need to work with him more to have an opinion. Obviously, they're going to work equally well. I have not tested them for speed. The kangaroo tail was from knife grinders. You might know that the owner has recently died. They were importing the skin through certified purveyors. You could reach out to the company. Knife grinders is on KZread and out of Australia. I would have to look myself for someone else to procure the kangaroo tail.

@MichaelE.Douroux

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm Many thanks, looking forward to your further research. A lot of work, appreciate it

after years of dishing out stones and sharpening tools like handling porcelain, i can't wait to try my overpriced cbn. even the budget electroplated diamond stone couldn't take aggressive use before loosing the surface plate.

@nadm

Жыл бұрын

Try not to press too hard. Let the stones do the work. I do what you do and that I want to think that I have to press hard. If you only one already then damn you should have some fun.

Greg, great video, thanks. Sad about Ken Schwarz (sp?). In addition to Ken, We have lost Cliff Stamp, and Stefan Wolf. I think it's a conspiracy by knife companies to bump-off the legends to sell more knives because nobody will know how to sharpen them. Many thanks for the video, Have a splendid day, be suspicious of everybody, and don't talk to strangers, or get into a strange van. (lol). P.S. I think Rikki is safe. (only kidding)

@nadm

Жыл бұрын

Lol! No, Ken Schwartz was a good guy. His wife died, and he deteriorated immediately.

@thomasgronek6469

Жыл бұрын

@@nadm Truly sad, both losing a life-long loved one, and then dying from a broken heart.

Very informative. Do you have a link for your kangaroo "tail" strop? Been looking, can't find one.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

So I'm gonna give you the email of someone who does that in America. Knife grinders in Australia is not able to do that right now. The owner died and I don't know if the families keeping up with it but we have a guy in America that has great prices. ken.hamaker@gmail.com Ken Hamaker facebook.com/ken.hamaker

@MichaelE.Douroux

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm Thanks!

Thats a Gihei right? I have Gihei Santoku in HAP40... You can absolutely sharpen hap40 on Chosera/Ceramic based alox stones🙏 Very big misconception about supersteel hardness..The carbides are harder but steel matrix itself is not and the size of carbide is 1-12micron (depend on what exact type) and having those carbides exposed is perfect working edge , BUT its better to use cbn/diamond for it , especially resin/metal/vitrified bond... HAP 40 is nice hard steel but its not like REX121 or 15V ot even 10V level where you absolutely have to use SuperAbrasives.. Just to add little info Grag🙏

@nadm

7 ай бұрын

That was not the maker of that particular knife. You are definitely talking some advanced stuff and I love it. There's some stuff in there that I am aware of because you're talking about certain steal that I haven't been exposed to. Congratulations on your experience.

Do you prime the cbn or diamonds before sharpening? When I get a new plate I run a large chisel over the surface a few times before I sharpen on it to make the surface more uniformed

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for that. I was unaware of that. I always love it when you guys comment because we learn from each other. Please elaborate more when you have the time.

@bozoedge

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm sure when you first get a plate the diamonds have quite a few rouge diamonds that aren’t going to stay on the plate very long and give you a uneven finish and can be damaging or not true to grit. I literally knock the top diamonds off by running a 2 inch chisel over the surface taking off the uneven layer that came from the factory. Not to much pressure but you can get a feeling for it when you do it. It’s kinda why when you first get one it feels so aggressive, not true to grit level. This is recommended it achieve a uniformed grit.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

@@bozoedge thank you

I tend to use my Suehiro Cerax 1k 99% of the time and it'll sharpen 65-66 HRC. Done it dozens of times on customer knives. Really don't like ZDP 189 though. Hap40 is better but still not in love. I don't think the hardness to edge retention pays off. It'll get you an extra 10% maybe but the edge tends to be over toothy even with a polish. Just don't enjoy it.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Do you feel like your timeframe is the same when you sharpen it? Something so hard doesn't it take longer?

@JeffSmith-eq3kc

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm definitely takes longer. I would say maybe 15-20% more time. Seems about the same from my experience between like a 57-58 Wustoff and a White #2 at 61-62. I just don't think that level of hardness makes a better knife for kitchen knives as it would for an EDC knife or something. I like the 62 range for kitchen knives. Then again, most people don't own a strop, stone or even a honing rod so for some maybe that 66HRC gives them time between sending the knives in.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

@@JeffSmith-eq3kc You can Strop on most anything. And I do like a different variety of harnesses in knives. I like the material. We all have our favorites.

I have a weird question but seeing how sharp that 1200 grit stone got the knife how fine do you need to sharpen too? can you go too fine of grit where you aren't getting any sharper of a knife?

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

In a way I wanna say yes. Technically you’re just cleaning the Apex. You shouldn’t be pressing harder when you get above 3000. You should be kind of cleaning off any metal debris as you polish. The clean Apex makes for a sharp knife with great as retention. If a knife has teeth and the teeth can fall out. I have found uncertain steals that you don’t need to go be honest certain point. It really does make a lot of difference on the heat treatment as well as who did it as well as the type of steel. A lot of that is just experience. You really normally only have to sharpen a knife two or 3000 grit. I would maybe go higher on all of your single bevel knives for the fish because they really can use a clean edge

@lizardkeeper100

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm thank you! That Is great to know!

@mytech6779

2 жыл бұрын

The grit standard matters too, for example a FEPA-F or ANSI 1200 is similar micron range to JIS or FEPA-P 3000-4000 The website for those cBN stones doesn't say if it is JIS, FEPA-P, or FEPA-F, they are in europe so FEPA makes sense but even then are they using -P(coated paper fabric or plastic) or -F( bonded stones ).

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

@@mytech6779 I will have to ask Hans who made the stones what the grit standard is

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

@@mytech6779 I sent him a personal message. He’s in Germany. He’s probably asleep right now. I’m sure he’ll wake up tomorrow and see this and hopefully he will respond to this himself.

can do a finishing on Naniwa Diamond 3k & 6k?

@nadm

Жыл бұрын

Yes! Good suggestion. We can do both knives and then finish one of them on the 3000 and the other one on the sixth. I don't have the 6K in the diamond stone. It'll be a while before I have the finances to order it but yes. And we were already going to do this type of work on other stones. So we'll definitely be doing some of those different finish comparisons. Thank you for the suggestion. I'm glad we're on the same page!

@WengKuangLoo

Жыл бұрын

@@nadm Bought it from Amazon recently @ US$97

@nadm

Жыл бұрын

@@WengKuangLoo nice

So you must use water, not oil on a CBN stone?

@nadm

Жыл бұрын

I agree. Did I miss speak? Absolutely only use water. I would've never meant to say anything different. I apologize if I did. I'm shocked if I did. No oil!

My guess is, the Hap40 is much thinner then the German. Less surface on the stone and therefore less sound...🤔

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

You heard it right! It was interesting. It was thin. Such a different sound.

BTW i can see the real Pain in ur Face as u stroke the Hap40 over the Stone :) always remember.... everything for science and for the viewers

Actually ceramic stones can sharpen HAP40 etc...but can't sharpen knives at 4% Vanadium. The vanadium carbides are too hard, if you try you will just ruin the edge.

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I tried to put a chart up to show the hardness. I think my comment was directed more towards that particular knife at its level of hardness but I agree with you. I did try to put a chart up to show that if it was hardens to a certain point it was fine but afterwards you really needed something more because it was just too much work. I do appreciate your comments.

@dimmacommunication

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm I comment to share knowledge and discuss about cool topics 😃👍 I hope I don't sound harsh or the " I know it all " guy . Also comments support the channel

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

@@dimmacommunication No sir! I never take it that way. I appreciate you being here every week. I appreciate your support. I don’t think you come across that way. You’re just sharing knowledge. I’m glad we can paint these comments out here for other people to see. God bless!

@bozoedge

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah you made the knife blunt with a Natural stone so ceramic can definitely sharpen that knife

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

@@bozoedge I pushed a knife, that particular knife, hardened to a 65 and an edge half the size of a human hair into the bottom, uneven, rough natural stone 20 times with pressure. I am sure I could have dulled any knife. I’ll be doing it again with a ZDP189 knife hardened to a 67. You know I can doll the knife on a wooden cutting board. I can’t sharpen the knife on a wooden cutting board

Sch-life like nordschlief

I don't understand why the Germans like such soft tempers. Specifically the mid to high end stuff. (At the extreme cheap end it's about warranties and people abusing the knives. Bending is obvious abuse/accident while a break could be either abuse or a flaw.) They don't need to go full in Japanese style but a couple more points would make a real improvement. I have a German *carbon*-steel single bevel grafting knife and it also gets tons of burr that needs the suede side strop, I think its only about 57hRc. Once I get a backup I'm going to see about getting it re-heat treated to ~60-61.

It's pronounced schlifejunkies;)

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

You do know that that wasn't helpful! Lol! Spelling it does not teach me how to say it.

@admirallongstash8056

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm 🤣

@hello.itsme.5635

2 жыл бұрын

@@nadm Actually he tried to spell it in a way that an English speaking person would say it correctly. Unfortunately he messed it up 😂 I'd go with shlavejunkies...

@nadm

2 жыл бұрын

@@hello.itsme.5635 thank you