Just a quick thing about Zizek: In the clip where he's showing the portrait of Stalin in his house he's explaining that he doesn't keep it hung up there and that he just puts it up for guests as a means of being needlessly inflammatory.

@definitelynotofficial7350

6 жыл бұрын

Yyy Yyy Why do you have to be so angry? I doubt there are lots of victims of Stalin's regime that visit his house.

@definitelynotofficial7350

6 жыл бұрын

Yyy Yyy Zizek isn't a Stalin sympathizer and I didn't want to imply he is.

@definitelynotofficial7350

6 жыл бұрын

Yyy Yyy You're the only one that ever said anything related to the Holocaust. I don't know why you're posting stuff in Hebrew and Cyrillic, I can't read either.

@definitelynotofficial7350

6 жыл бұрын

Yyy Yyy Sorry for not answering your question, I didn't see it. First of all, yeah, that's what I understand by "Holocaust", because that's what is referred to as "Holocaust". Holocaust isn't a term that refers to mass killing and prosecution in general, there is only one Holocaust, the one commited by Nazi Germany. It's not a matter of importance, I consider all of the events you mentioned equally disgusting. As to your question, it really depends. It's a bit disingenuous to make a comparison like that, Zizek has said he thinks Stalinism was even worse than Nazism. If I didn't know he was strongly opposed to the ideology, I would be pretty pissed at the guy who hung the Hitler picture. Doing it at the present of someone of jewish descent would be in poor taste too. I wouldn't be so angry though if I knew tney were just doing it to be inflammatory, or ironically. It would be hypocritical, as I've used myself both nazi and stalinist imagery ironically, without any sympathy for either ideology. In itself, it means nothing, it's all about intent.

@isaactrio

6 жыл бұрын

Yyy Yyy he was just explaining.. its not michael thomas has a picture of stalin lol.. chill dude.

The fact people disagree on what post-modernism means is in itself the best example of post-modernism.

@restonthewind

Жыл бұрын

People disagree on what quantum mechanics means.

@pslanez

Жыл бұрын

​@@restonthewind People now disagree on what woman means.

@restonthewind

Жыл бұрын

@@pslanez You win.

@Noba46688

Жыл бұрын

@@pslanez no they fkn don’t. Crawl on back to Shapiro or some shit

@pslanez

Жыл бұрын

@@Noba46688 Huh? People seem to also disagree that there is any disagreements

The fact that Peterson can't cite certain thinkers without referring to them as "treacherous" or some other variation of the term tells you exactly what kind of public intellectual he is

@nIrUbU01

2 жыл бұрын

What does that mean? Thinkers should not be called treacherous by principle? What if a thinker is treacherous? Or is it impossible for a thinker to be treacherous?

@officialmasqq_594

2 жыл бұрын

@@nIrUbU01 I mean that whether he means to or not, JP's emotive language fills the gaps in knowledge of what he is talking about. The way he describes postmodernism and the thinkers who adhere to it, despite it being a nebulous concept, and also conflates it with Marxism (an entirely different school of thought) reveals how much of JP's arguments rely on buzzwords for things he doesn't like, because they're mostly too lazy to have any kind of properly informed and subjective substance.

@nIrUbU01

2 жыл бұрын

@@officialmasqq_594 emotive language isn't necessarily bad, it's powerful and I think it conveys what he's trying to say well. After all the term "treacherous" has a very distinct meaning. He doesn't conflate postmodernism with Marxism, he explicitly acknowledged countless times that both of those ideologies are contradictory (in theory). But there is some kind of doublethink going on with people who try to adhere to both of them at the same time (for certain reasons). And there is a lot of those nowadays. You mention postmodernism being nebulous (on purpose?). My guess is that's also why there's a lot of people accusing each other of not understanding postmodernism correctly (like many are doing with Peterson). Maybe it's simply not made for being understood correctly.

@officialmasqq_594

2 жыл бұрын

@@nIrUbU01 my understanding of postmodernism is that it is a philosophy that rejects all encompassing narratives previously preached by religion, governments and monarchies, and that essentially no one understanding of our universe can be objectively correct. Take the concept of beauty in art for example, traditionally the objective beauty of something is determined by a consensus usually determined by an authority, and usually relied upon a replication or exaggeration of things seen in nature, as art advanced it grew apart from this naturalistic vision, and now the beauty of an art piece can reflect almost anything.

@michaelsieger9133

2 жыл бұрын

@@nIrUbU01 because no thinker is essentially treacherous simply by virtue of being a thinker. If Peterson wants to claim that "treachery" is an accident which applies to a thinker, he needs to point to some motive or course of action which indicates treachery, or simply explain how a academic, engaged in honest discourse, in a free society, is capable of treachery simply by his work. He might as well have been on the Athenian juries which accused Socrates and Aristotle of blasphemy. But even then, the fault for the growing distance between the principles of Greek philosophy and political life was laid upon the unstable foundations of Greek spiritual culture.

This is what happens when you project what you know of your field of expertise (psychology in Peterson's case) onto other fields you have little understanding of

@addammadd

Жыл бұрын

A problem which is exacerbated by the false assertion that one’s field is a science when it is demonstrably not. We end up with dogmas fueling dogmas fueling ever more dogmas.

@runswithbears3517

Жыл бұрын

Not really. What this video misses is the fact that Peterson refers to what is called 'cultural Marxism', which kind of undermines the entire point of this video.

@dietertheanteater

Жыл бұрын

@@addammadd Which hilariously is exactly what Baudrillard predicted for the postmodern state. And yes, sadly most people do not understand, that the only REAL science that we do is natural science [physics, chemistry and biology]. Everything else is a terrible attempt at making academic "knowledge" scientific, which actually defeats the purpose of science. No wonder that people nowadays reject basic natural science

@user-oz8oh1bn9b

Жыл бұрын

@@dietertheanteater No, one could argue that all those fields are just applied philosophy, philosophy is the core of academic knowledge

@lecryptomanciendu3578

Жыл бұрын

@@user-oz8oh1bn9b In what sense ? Enlighten me :)

From the famous philosopher "It doesn't matter who's wrong or right Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it" Michael Jackson

@xtzyshuadog

5 жыл бұрын

Whaa?

@nolives

5 жыл бұрын

From his hit thesis "shamona"

@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick

5 жыл бұрын

TJ the DJ I don’t want to think about Michael Jackson beating anything given recent news...

@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick

5 жыл бұрын

Anticonny Got something to say?

@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick

5 жыл бұрын

Anticonny Could you please sound a little more condescending?

The lesson we need to learn: Research what people say. I did that and found Derrida saying to me something very different to what Peterson was suggesting Derrida said.

@LoisKl

5 жыл бұрын

well, Peterson has a very limited understanding of philosohpy in general..

@nolives

5 жыл бұрын

@@LoisKl thats because lobsters dont practice philosophy. Therefor it is unnatural and bad.

@stellario82

5 жыл бұрын

You simply did not read enough...read more.

@TeflonTelStar

4 жыл бұрын

Derrida is a word-salad generating fraud.

@usefulidiot2842

4 жыл бұрын

Is what u just said subjective or objective? It’s basic philosophy 101 don’t fall into self refuting world views or else everything u think and say is meaningless therefore nothing you say or do matters yet in reality it shows the opposite lol it’s pretty simple shit

What amazes me so much about Peterson is how he so often un-self-awarely engages in exactly what he criticizes in others. He very rightly criticizes "low-resolution thinking", but this is precisely what he engages in whenever he talks about marxism or post-modernism.

@tiago.suares

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, when he talks about this topic you can't really give the same credit as when he is talking about psychology and moral

@cherryvapr6969

2 жыл бұрын

@@tiago.suares the position he has with the ideology espoused by the Marxist and post modernists is based in its consequences and the effect they will have and have had historically I don't find that small minded in a world of repeating histories. To say an idealogy and philosophy is wrong when it proves itself to damage society and its progression isn't small thinking or misinformed if you derive morality from secular sources.

@pauldi7268

Жыл бұрын

@@cherryvapr6969 foucault and Derrida have done no damage to society, in fact other than those who actually read them and study them nobody including Peterson has a fucking clue what the were tslking about and you certainly dont see their philosophy deeply represented in western society but for academics.

@ChadkinsShow

Жыл бұрын

To be fair, hypocrisy is hardly a rare trait in people - almost all of us are perpetrators of things that disgust us the most because it was our experience with the consequences of those things that taught us to hate them, or at least value their opposite so fervently. Jordan is a very passionate person, and I credit most of his worst moments to that fact - he can't let his deeper feelings about the things he talks about not affect his work when talking about them and being heavily criticized for every word he says is his daily existence. We have to give the guy some credit, he's just as hated as he is venerated and it must be herculean to keep his feelings in check when you're under that kind of scrutiny.

@thomascromwell6840

Жыл бұрын

@@cherryvapr6969 The question is how can you be so certain that a philosophy or idea has damaged society when you cannot even say what it is, explain it or prove its harmful effects. It would be like saying funny moustaches have harmed society without even being able to tell what a moustache is, how it works, and how it harms society. At best this is a mistaken belief, and at worst it is a lie. Now I don't know how much you have to gain by lying but I know Peterson certainly gains far more than a psychology professor's salary can provide. Now if we add to that the plain fact that he has been caught lying and misinforming people by multiple experts in a number of fields, I wonder why you still believe him.

Hearing Jordan Peterson speak on these subjects is like submerging your head in a huge bowl of letter spaghetti.

@CanalCruisers

7 ай бұрын

With a side of word salad

@serbu4169

7 ай бұрын

And mashed syllables

@MrWhiskeycricket

6 ай бұрын

id say that about anyone speaking on this subject.

@jackreacher.

5 ай бұрын

Shame is not a healthy response to ignorance.

@dr.ross.medicalmassage

2 ай бұрын

One may have exactly same sensations when he or she reads postmodernist philosophers. They pretend to be scientists but mostly demagogs. As it was pointed in one comment above science is physics, biology and chemistry. Generally speaking postmodernism is fruitless chase of its own tale. Philosophy in general, in difference with scientific data, is pure chimera created by someone else brain. Our knowledge of human brain is so primitive that one follow postmodernism only as brain treadmill and nothing else. Don’t let blind men to lead blind people into the cave with fire.

"Your iPhone wouldn't work without physics. Checkmate, Marxists." - Jordan Peterson

@demit189

5 жыл бұрын

@@finchbevdale2069 I'll add my 2 cents to what you said making it 4 cents.

@Tonixxy

5 жыл бұрын

@@finchbevdale2069 What's more complex an human or a human society. We know how macro systems work but not micro. I would argue the same is true for society. For example you and i know how a religious group would react if you burn a fundamental book to his faith.

@kristoffel5045

5 жыл бұрын

In other words, Peterson talks too much and says so little.

@Amateur_Pianist_472

4 жыл бұрын

I thought you were joking until I heard him basically saying that. How are leftists against physics? If anything they want more funding.

@popeinnocentiii6315

4 жыл бұрын

Lmao Zedong

Yeah I always felt like Peterson wasn’t critiquing the actual postmodernists, but just like the soupy contradictory mix of ideas that the typical undergrad has trying to average out all the texts they are reading

@thisismyname9569

6 жыл бұрын

You are right. This video assumes the word "post-modernism" properly refers to what a few key people from the mid 20th century said. In reality the word is applied to a wide range of people, just like the word "Marxist" is applied to many people who have views that are different from what Marx himself believed. This makes the job of those of us who are trying to understand what is going on a lot harder, but it is just the way it is. The usages of words are constantly changing over time, and it is an error to assume a word used 20 years ago means exactly the same thing when it is used today.

@TheDominionOfElites

6 жыл бұрын

I think this is spot on. He's framing it around the undergrad's perspectives, rather than getting very anal and in-depth about the original postmodernists. He cares more about the more nihilist post-interpretation post-meaning aspects of it where there's no "correct answer" .

@davidm1926

6 жыл бұрын

+A Neg - But Peterson is making a claim about "Marxist" intellectuals purposely passing themselves off as "postmodernists." That's a different story entirely from what might be going on with undergrads. If we interpret what he's saying strictly, he's wrong. If we don't, we have to know what people he's talking about to even make sense of what he's saying, much less evaluate its accuracy. [He probably is just springboarding off his impression of the academic zeitgeist, and concocting a myth to put villains behind it, pulling the puppet strings]

@anegrey

6 жыл бұрын

I guess that's more or less what I was thinking. I can't get over the impression that Peterson got his feelings hurt dealing with a certain type of representative of the academic zeitgeist, and proceeded to wade just far enough into philosophy to build a straw man and vilify them.

@jorgepeterbarton

6 жыл бұрын

so postmodernITY. he needs to get it right. He directly attributes it to theorists of the movement instead of the cultural shift the movement wrote about. its completely illogical. Its like saying Nietzsche said 'god is dead'- so we must be total nihilists and go around killing eachother, or was that exactly what Nietszche opposed. He's making the same mistake.

Jordan Peterson is always struck me like a academic preacher And if reports I've heard are true when The Dean sat in on one of his classes they were sort of shocked by how he taught. Essentially they said he passes off opinions as tough truths of the world

@Theactivepsychos

6 ай бұрын

The monumental narcissistic method.

@guyinyourphone7426

6 ай бұрын

what's wrong with giving out opinions? And i am sure he isn't saying that if anyone has any opinion other than his then its wrong. every professor in every class is there to teach students on what the professor has learned from his experience and what the people before them have discovered and experienced. He is there to teach students what he has learned in psychology. He is an educated person and was hired as a professor by giving interviews and stuff. You make it sound like he somehow cheated his way through his education, ended up as a professor somehow and is now forcing his ideologies on his students. i am also pretty sure you haven't watched any of his recorded lectures from his college classes.

@broingup1239

6 ай бұрын

@@guyinyourphone7426 Read the comment twice but carefully this time.

@Ryan30z

6 ай бұрын

@@guyinyourphone7426 how did you manage to miss the entire point of something only two sentences long?

@guyinyourphone7426

6 ай бұрын

@@Ryan30z how did I miss the point exactly???

People often forget that JP is only educated in psychology. He isn’t a philosopher and he isn’t a political theorist. His understanding of both subjects is genuinely below the standard demanded by an undergraduate degree.

@gbonkers666

7 ай бұрын

There is no such thing as a poitical theorist. It just a position that people who sucked at being a lawyer fall back into to justify the money they spent at law school. It makes them sound cool. Like "political scientist" or "Professor of Political scientist" when they are just civics teachers.

@ME-gs6yn

7 ай бұрын

@@gbonkers666 Yeah, this might just be the dumbest thing that I read today.

@MartijnHover

7 ай бұрын

I would say that even as a psychologist he is far below par. 😀

@ME-gs6yn

7 ай бұрын

@@MartijnHover You’re not wrong at all. I found out since positing my original comment that he is only trained as a councilor.

@dannyarcher6370

7 ай бұрын

@@ME-gs6yn Sure. lol

You could make about 100 videos entitled 'Jordan Peterson doesn't understand X.' But I think the real point you made which hits the nail on the head, is that Peterson is constantly making arguments where the initial point he makes has absolutely nothing to do with the final conclusion he comes to. He uses vaguely intelligent sounding psychological, sociological or philosophical statements and then relates them to classic buzzwords that right-wingers love, like SJWs, cultural marxists or neo-marxists.

@BlunderCity

5 жыл бұрын

You could make millions of videos entitled "X person does not understand Y" because public intellectuals have the habit of talking about things that are outside of their core expertise. For instance, mine is in economics and I can't help but shake my hear in disbelief every time I hear an non-economist talk about economics. I have one example involving Petersen on his Sargon of Akkad interview: He claims that wage growth has stagnated in recent decades because women have entered the workforce (wage contraction due to an influx of new workers). There are so many things that are false about that, it's funny: 1- You can only apply dynamic reasoning in complex economic systems: it's simplistic to say that more workers mean lower wages because of supply and demand in the labour market. The very fact that there are new workers change the nature of your economy and ist components (consumption, investment etc...) so you can't compare the data before and after women have entered the workforce: it's not the same economy. 2- Real wage growth has NOT stagnated in recent decade. That's widely reported everywhere but is a misreading of the data. Ex-bonus ex-benefit wages has stagnated (and even then, that's not true, I would characterise it as low growth) but total workers compensation has in fact increased. 3- Women "entering the workforce" (many women worked before that so called period) began during the post war boom, a period characterised by a chrononic shortage of labour leading to high inflation and high wage growth. The shortage was so acute that many countries had to import workers from abroad. And while the female participation rate continued to increase past the post war boom, it flattened as a percentage of employed people. So the increased participation of women in the labour market being to blame for slowing wage growth is simply not what the analysis shows. You should listen to Noam Chomsky talk about economics. It's comedy gold if you have some knowledge of the subject. And I'm not saying that public intellectuals shouldn't chimes in on topics outside of their area of expertise but people should take what they say with a grain of salt.

@atm1947

5 жыл бұрын

@@BlunderCity "I shake my head in disbelief every time I hear a non-economist talk about economics" Ok technocrat

@BlunderCity

5 жыл бұрын

Well only a brainwashed moron like you wouldn't see the value of a technocracy as a political mode of organisation. Power to the people who are knowledgeable and competent? Nah we can't allow that to happen.

@rolandgotha6575

5 жыл бұрын

I can't help but shake my head in disbelief that this economist is talking about something outside his sphere of expertise. Where's your degree in political philosophy, bro?

@BlunderCity

5 жыл бұрын

@Roland Gotha What does real wage growth during the post war period got to do with political philosophy?

Manray: This is Posmodernism. Peterson: Yup Manray : A philosophy that rejects historical materialism, class conflict, dialectical progression of history and a worker's revolution. Peterson: Yep. Manray : Things that marxism is known for. Peterson : Makes sense to me. Manray: So there you have it! Peterson : Posmodernism is Marxism in disguise. Manray : *Sends him to gulag*

@julymagnus493

5 жыл бұрын

That escalated quickly

@MagiczzLilGoose

5 жыл бұрын

I never thought about it till just now, but that whole scene is essentially a mini-Socratic dialogue, but instead of the questioned person leaving, they just arrive at an illogical position

@DuskAndHerEmbrace13

5 жыл бұрын

Ugh these comments do not actually take into account what he says about the two. He KNOWS the paradoxical nature of the mix.

@julymagnus493

5 жыл бұрын

@@DuskAndHerEmbrace13 so what's his excuse? And where does he acknowledge this? You can't just say stupid shit and then claim that you KNOW its stupid.

@mordenkainen88

5 жыл бұрын

@@DuskAndHerEmbrace13 Links to sources, please.

Thank you! The reductionist way he's referred to postmodernism has irritated me for some time and no one has called him up on it. His understanding of it is extremely superficial and naive, but gets away with it because most of the people interviewing him have no idea what postmodernism is either. He presents himself as an intellectualist, yet resorts to stereotypes and generalizations whenever talking about postmodernism and marxism.

@AA-yc8yr

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, how reductionist of someone rejecting the rejection of rationality, objectivty, and universality of truth (and fact), and refuting the paraded 'alternative' of relativistic 'multiplicity' of views. Views don't make or replace facts, nor are they observable and falsifiable.

@cptpepper7731

7 ай бұрын

@@AA-yc8yr You're conflating so many things into one bag and actually making my point about people who have no clue about postmodernism thinking it can be boiled down to that simplified viewpoint.

@AA-yc8yr

7 ай бұрын

@@cptpepper7731 Another muppet who can't formulate an argument for the life of you. You've got no point worth making, let alone one you can intellectually define or defend. Claiming I am somehow confusing something with something is as vacuous as the whole post-modernist drivel, so if nothing else you do maintain a level (of vapidity).

@cptpepper7731

7 ай бұрын

@@doyourownresearch7297 No, as an intellectual, he doesn't just get to get to manipulate a philosophy he doesn't understand for his ideological purposes. It's disingenuous and underhanded.

@as-above-so-below-

7 ай бұрын

​@@cptpepper7731I mean, I'm not justifying his reductionism, and convoluted speech here, but he kind of can bend philosophy all over the place if he pleases. He's not playing that game here. He's not really even trying to be a conservative hero or anything for that matter. He's left behind the intellectualism and stepped into the weird world of motivational speech. He's trying to loosely hold to an image of the conservative hero so he can draw young conservative men away from the depths of far right, incel despair, and hit them with the fundamental issues that are keeping them there. His entire narrative can be summed up in a few simple statements: Get your house in order, take care of yourself, and go make an adventure out of your life. Sometimes you have to make an ass out of yourself if you want to get the attention of assholes and if you rewind a couple years to him defending the crowd of young people following him, you can see he felt pretty passionate about encouraging them to go back out into the world and getting over themselves and their perceived problems. Psychologists pretend to sympathize with obvious issues all the time just to hit their patients where it really hurts so they'll change and he's doing a really good job at that on the conservative side of things. Slavoj Zizek is doing something pretty similar on the left and motivating a lot of young leftists to, for lack of a better term (I'm sure he would appreciate it lol), nut up, act like a grown adult, and stop sobbing because their ideal isn't being taken seriously. These types of speakers aren't to be looked at as philosophers in the traditional sense. People like Jordan Peterson may not look outwardly eccentric all the time but he's taken on an eccentric character to address what he's really getting at. This is why people who he's not addressing directly look at him like he's an odd and horribly mistaken guy, while those who make up the majority of his fan base are almost hypnotized by him. Trump worshippers aren't the type of conservatives that absolutely love Peterson. The young guys who could have wound up turning into basement dwelling Nazis for the rest of their lives but changed are and if his approach doesn't make any sense to you, that's a good thing. He's not addressing you.

He continually confuses campus activism with theory. Straw men all the way. It's like he based his argument on some SJW-manifesto rather than the writings of Foucault and Derrida.

@maxfern5701

2 жыл бұрын

Or maybe he based his arguments on how it actually manifests itself in the world but what do I know

@tilltronje1623

2 жыл бұрын

@@maxfern5701 nothing, evidently

@maxfern5701

2 жыл бұрын

@@tilltronje1623 Indeed.

@d.f.s.studios281

Жыл бұрын

@@maxfern5701 @Till Tronje You two are the definition of pretentious

@Vekikev1

13 күн бұрын

Foucault is a pedo

Peterson uses Marxism as a catch-all term to mean "resentful left wing people".

@suides4810

4 жыл бұрын

sean jonson bitch it doesnt exist

@MrJMB122

4 жыл бұрын

So true!

@anthonynichols3857

4 жыл бұрын

Odd that so many people think like a Marxist and talk like a Marxist, yet use Postmodern theory to deny being a Marxist.

@tonycampbell1424

4 жыл бұрын

@@anthonynichols3857 Provide exactly one example of this. I'll wait.

@anthonynichols3857

4 жыл бұрын

@@tonycampbell1424 There are millions of examples, so limiting me to just one is impossible... Anyway, everyone who denies that the murders of 100 million people did not happen under the tenets of Socialism is the first of many examples. Then there is the vast support by the Leftists for an egalitarian society under the guise of fairness and compassion...we see how that worked out, but the Postmodernist is focused on changing that history. Also, those using Catalonia, the Zapistitas, and/or other tribal communities as subjective examples of the success of Socialism for a vast and diverse populace. And other issues where the proponents of Socialism promote it as a political ideology when it's the economic theory that supports Communism (which is its goal)...or another variant of Collectivism like Fascism or Anarcho-Syndicalism. Maybe, the obvious is not obvious to you. Rather than wasting your time waiting, you should read the words written by the culprits of Socialism, research their carnage, and compare that with the words and goals of the new Leftist culprits...I have things to do, so I won't be waiting for that to happen.

As Ray said at the Integral community website *_"Jordan Peterson is one of a number of public figures who have discovered that it is extremely profitable to feed off of the shadows of weak men with fragile egos and rather than fixing themselves, focus externally on attacking wokeness (then alternating with describing their victim status to legitimize their attacks). Yes, he is popular - and he also makes money by teaching mental gymnastics to avoid any real self improvement or self accountability - and instead drag them into a victim-persecutor dynamic"_* I believe that Ray is right. I also believe that Peterson is acting out a lot of unresolved repressed anger as it manifest itself in his over-the-top attack on postmodernism as if it was concocted intentionally by a bunch of mad scientists. Then he calls Derrida a *treacherous* thinker but the real treacherous one is Peterson, as Ray points out. Derrida and the other scholars on postmodernism were not intentionally out to treacherously indoctrinate the masses with evil intentions. They were trying to make sense of the world and our place in it. Did they make mistakes in their theories? Of course they did! But that does not make them treacherous. I wish Peterson would shut the FUCK up about postmodernism, Marxism, climate change, and other issues he knows very little of. If being humble is among Peterson's moral values, he should act on it.

@deadNightwatchman

Жыл бұрын

Underrated comment.

@motherlesschild102

5 ай бұрын

He also has some big $$ backers.

having looked into the matter further, it appears Peterson's view of postmodernism apes the content of "Postmodernism: A Very Brief Introduction" which was written by Christopher Bulter, who was a modernist academic and a critic of postmodernism

@fmellish71

3 ай бұрын

Stephen Hicks as well...can't remember the name of the book, but its a Randian embarrassment

Imagine saying "Social Justice Warrior" unironically in a philosophy talk. Great video, mate.

@sarahjessicafarter7383

6 жыл бұрын

If you define what you mean by the term then I don't see a problem with using it. Please don't tell me its been decided that "social justice warrior" is now a Nazi dog whistle too.

@dirkvasdeferens1860

6 жыл бұрын

No it's more that it is an empty cliche that has no place in an actual scholarly discussion.

@sarahjessicafarter7383

6 жыл бұрын

It's not a scholarly term, no. I didn't realise that footage was from an actual teaching lecture by Peterson, I thought it was one of his informal extracurricular events.

@shalie7522

5 жыл бұрын

You can use social justice warrior in a philosophy discussion. The very point of philosophy is to study and discuss the nature of knowledge, reality, and existence. The SJW movement is a type of philosophy of life. Why should one not discuss the pros and con's of it and where the thought possibly came from? And if they call themselves SJW then what else are you supposed to call them. Philosophy is nothing if it's just contained in the thoughts of old dead men. Bring Philosophy to real life today as well. I'm not saying that some of these philosophers aren't relevant or their thoughts should not be looked at, but if you are really a philosopher, you shouldn't discount somebody discussing today's philosophies and ideologies just because they may or may not being to Rousseau or Nietzsche or whoever you're following.

@ravivdlin9412

5 жыл бұрын

Shalie because they use the term to create this amorphous group that encapsulates all the worst qualities you can stuff into a strawman. Its like discussing the ideology of hipsters lol

This is the last Jordan Peterson video of yours I'm gonna watch... every time I watch one my recommended videos get flooded with goddamn Peterson videos for days lol

@max2beuz

3 жыл бұрын

Take is as a blessing. You might smarten up

@yonyosef

3 жыл бұрын

@@max2beuz ok simp

@baltzarbonbeck3559

3 жыл бұрын

Take it as a message from God

@yonyosef

3 жыл бұрын

@@baltzarbonbeck3559 which one?

@user-hi2fp1he5g

3 жыл бұрын

@@max2beuz hah, smarten up by learning how to employ red herrings and beat around the point we are trying to convey untill it's close enough that people aren't able to point out us doing it? I believe that the best way to convey a message is the most simple and straightforward one, which doesn't exclude future deeper discussion or more technical terms, as long as they aren't misused and the audience has an idea of what they mean. Peterson is great at employing double speak and false analogies to strengthen the audiences emotional connection to what he's saying to avoid actual discussion, because he knows that his points are sometimes wrong or unpopular. Intellectual dishonesty isn't a good thing to learn, and if you think that all these techniques in place to make him honestly just sound "complicated" and "convoluted" are cool and intelligent you are just pushing the "fake deep" narrative.

I don't think the description of Peterson having a "misunderstanding" of Post-Modernism is inaccurate. That implies some naivety or ignorance through lack of exposure on his part. I think he mis-characterizes these ideas intentionally because he has contempt for the intelligence of his audience and he knows he has found a niche he can profit from. If anything, his audience has a misunderstanding of Post-Modernism which he preys on and exploits to his advantage.

@thelstan8562

3 жыл бұрын

Couldn’t be more true.

@mogensgallardo3288

2 жыл бұрын

Basically, Jordan is a grifter.

@greanbeen2816

Жыл бұрын

-Use of “scary” academic language that vaguely implies some form of uncertainty -Connecting everything to bogeyman “Marxism” - *Careful, methodical misinterpretation of everything he criticizes designed to make it seem absurd/untenable* nahhhh i don’t think he’s disingenuous at all

I love how nicely and politely and...respectful you have spoken in this video. You haven’t called him an idiot or dishonest or anything, which is something I see a lot when people try to answer someone they disagree with or someone who is wrong, which is of course a wrong move because it usually doesn’t make people change their mind, or at least that applies to me.

@theeachuisge

Жыл бұрын

People get to say wrong agressively or idiot to those who are wrong or idiot because it is hard to stand when you know the truth and when you see the evil.

@James-ll3jb

Жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/lYllrsqcdcuefdY.html

@EarlofSedgewick

8 ай бұрын

"you haven't called them wrong" I think there must be a compilation video somewhere out there of Peterson aggressively (and I mean that) saying "WRONG" as his the main thrust of his argument. These segments rarely have anyone in the comment sections saying "I'm glad he's making his point, but maybe if he could be less aggressive about this." Instead, we usually get his supporters saying how glad they are for someone who is well-spoken finally standing up for themselves. It has to work both ways. Not that I would have preferred someone calling Peterson an idiot instead of arguing, but rather that his supporters would be as critical of his own forceful tactics as they are of anyone who disagrees with him. Summary: Peterson is as much a product of the emotional platforming which online influencers depend upon to make their millions (and Peterson does make millions). Appraise his rhetoric and debates with the same rigour you would his most direct opponents.

@CristianChirita2234

8 ай бұрын

@@EarlofSedgewick I don't find his aggressiveness to be condescending, which is what I was commenting on 2 years ago, that's what annoys me about all of these debunk videos. "This idiot academic knows nothing like I, this random guy from youtube who read about the subject for 2 minutes because I dislike this specific academic and not for any other reason". That aggressiveness is nothing more than passion in something you truly sense is wrong, and something you can really argue about. "Not that I would have preferred someone calling Peterson an idiot instead of arguing, but rather that his supporters would be as critical of his own forceful tactics as they are of anyone who disagrees with him." Yeah I can understand that, I agree, but it's what happens with anyone who discovers some type of an ideal or someone they admire, it's inevitable and it's not a Peterson-fans only thing, it's a human universal.

@claudiamanta1943

7 ай бұрын

Respectful? 😃 Is using Kermit reference respectful? You have a very strange idea about respect.

The Stalin thing is a joke, Zizek thinks Stalin was an idiot. Just saying.

@cx2897

6 жыл бұрын

yeah, but i dont think it would be the same if someone had a pic of hilter hanging up as a joke so the point still stands

@karlmarx5078

6 жыл бұрын

What was the point exactly? I'm just making the point that the picture is hung in an ironic way. This isn't really subjective, it's what Zizek himself stated the picture was there for. Not sure what the point was, but I'm just highlighting that Zizek doesn't agree with Stalin in either theory or practice.

@monkeyfruitm4n783

5 жыл бұрын

I'd hang a shop of hitler and stalin kissing on my wall

@nyar369

5 жыл бұрын

Karl...Stalin was like, fucking TEN when you died! Zizek wasn't even conceived! What the fuck would you know??

@zmkdco8956

5 жыл бұрын

If you've watched more than a few appearances of Zizek, you would know not to take what he says or does at face value.

In former socialist Yugoslavia, the prominent communist Milovan Djilas denounced Marxism and become postmodernist. So he was expelled from the party.

@jd8808

4 жыл бұрын

Mussa Ibragimov nothing parallels the death toll of liberal capitalism. Indeed, the imperialist interventions that broke up former Yugoslavia resulted in many deaths through genocide and war. Furthermore, liberal capitalism is the *embodiment* of postmodernism: the false assumptions of modern notions of “progress”, subversion of popular institutions, relativism and nihilism (don’t worry just buy product and get exited for next product), politics as farce, and so on.

@eve3363

4 жыл бұрын

It's the same. You all are like the people who tried to debate me that socialism and communism aren't the same when socialism is just an undeveloped communism.

@jd8808

4 жыл бұрын

@@eve3363 There are a range of socialist tendencies, even within Marxism. Communism is just one of them. Ableit a marginal one at that. Your comment just reflects your own inability/unwillingless to understand what is being presented to you. Like you think we're all one homogeneous blob, singing from the same hymm sheet.

@eve3363

4 жыл бұрын

@@jd8808 Unfortunately, that's how it is presented.

@bubblegumgun3292

3 жыл бұрын

@Mussa Ibragimov I think above all they thought a union of compassionate fellow man would occur leading to a utopia where everyone truly loves and cares. I think they admitted defeat because they are confronted with the reality that it only created less of true love and less care . It was now just the machine of society in which they found themselves cogs for degeneration. Ultimately they confuse their fight againts capitalism with that againts of monarchy.

I love Peterson calling „rich vs poor“ a „presupposition“ as if it doesn’t really exist in his world.

@DDD-wt7ly

6 ай бұрын

It’s not that he doesn’t believe that rich and poor people come into conflict. He has talked about the gini coefficient many times. What he means is that, if you view the world through the lens of there are only us and the rich and that it’s a zero sum game puts you in a position to try to topple that hierarchy that is keeping you down. Something that can only come of an ignorance or ignoring how reality works in that hierarchies form naturally.

@ee-wx3hy

6 ай бұрын

@@DDD-wt7ly If by naturally you mean by pure chance then yeah. Some of us dont want to live under the boot of the lucky for their pleasure

@RubyRidge-ez2te

6 ай бұрын

​@DDD-wt7ly lol, he mentions that hierarchies form "natually." But somehow he forgot to mention that resistance to them also forms "naturally." I'm not saying he's a shill, but....

@DDD-wt7ly

6 ай бұрын

@@RubyRidge-ez2te you either engage with the hierarchy or try to tear it down. If you want to tear down the hierarchy that has formed based on merit then you have to find a better hierarchy to replace it. Almost everyone who does this replaces it with a power hierarchy. In other words, hierarchies are either based on power or merit, name me another type… I’ll wait.

@RubyRidge-ez2te

6 ай бұрын

@DDD-wt7ly You responded with an either-or fallacy: You either do X or you do Y. Please try again.

While a lot of what Peterson said made sense to me when I watched him a few years ago, I thought that he might be right, but that he also talks about a lot of fields that he is no expert in. I was especially cautious of his statements on philosophy because from my experience philosophy is not an easy thing to understand if you haven't throughly studied it. This video seems to confirm my doubts. That doesn't mean that he is completely wrong with everything he says, but that people should be aware when someone is talking about things that they are no expert in. Expert aren't always right of course, but the chances of them being wrong in their field of expertise are far lower than for everybody else.

@likenedthus

Жыл бұрын

As someone with both philosophy and psychology degrees, I can tell you that Peterson is wrong about philosophy most of the time and wrong about psychology often enough for me to question whether he should even viewed as an expert in his own field. Politics-and perhaps substance abuse-really did a number on him.

@malafakka8530

Жыл бұрын

@@likenedthus good too know. Thanks.

@seanmcdonald5076

Жыл бұрын

@@likenedthus I'll take JPs credentials over yours any day.

@likenedthus

Жыл бұрын

@@seanmcdonald5076, see, this is the problem with being uneducated. You fall in to this trap of thinking that credentials matter, because you have no other way of evaluating whether someone is giving you accurate information. Credentials don't mean shit in science, chief. If your research doesn't demonstrate your claims, then it doesn't matter how accomplished or smart you are, because the experts in your field are simply not going to accept your claims. And the funny thing is Jordan Peterson was never very accomplished to begin with. He had a rather normal looking academic career before he decided to be perpetually mad about trans people. But since you're so concerned with credentials, you should know that JP has precisely zero credentials in philosophy, not even a degree. So based on your own concept of credibility, you still shouldn't be listening to him on this subject.

@sarcasmenul

Жыл бұрын

@Sean McDonald a benzo addict who had to be put into a coma to save his fucked up brain is a guiding figure in your life. very cool 🤠

The first two minutes of this convinced me to watch the entire video. Your "you should watch this even if you're in Petersons camp so you can hear from both sides" is something all of us should do. Thanks for sharing this video!

@seanglennon4012

Жыл бұрын

Yeah huge surprise the guy with the channel "philosophy with the hammer and sickle" is highly critical of Jordan Peterson I'm totally shocked. Glad I came here for an unbiased point of view. I would listen to the dude more if he was a normal person but he's a communist and you can't trust communist or fascist. I want to find a independent thinker who is a critic of Jordan Peterson they're hard to come by so far I've only found wannabe communists

@jonathanschafer5459

Жыл бұрын

I first was convinced to watch it, but the way the arguments where actually hard to understand, because so much philosophical background was assumed, forgotten (or consciously circumvented ?) :/

@jasonale

Жыл бұрын

@@seanglennon4012 what do you think bias is? because it's not the same thing as having "normal opinions". you're showing a strong bias here because you've already assumed that anyone who subscribes to marxist philosophy must not have something of value to say on JBP's understanding of postmodernism. why is it that you assume that his marxist views must be biasing his view of JBP and postmodernism? what about the possibility that he has his marxist views because he has considered all the things he talks about as unbiased as he can? I'm not a marxist by the way - i know i haven't read nearly enough of the different philosophical and political theory schools of thought to really be firm on my own beliefs. i'm just saying that if you're already going to go in thinking that extremes of thought must be inherently wrong (which is appeal to the middle fallacy) then you're organizing your beliefs within the overton window and won't be able to take any value, even partial value, from points of view foreign to you.

@jasonale

Жыл бұрын

@@seanglennon4012 three arrows has a few videos that talk about JBP and he seems socdem and that's well within the "normal". genetically modified skeptic has some videos on JBP too and he's one of those apolitical (well as much as you can get because i'd argue politics is very hard to separate from a lot of issues) atheist guys. big joel has a good video on JBP and he's probably socdem too. it's definitely not only communists that have valid criticisms of JBP unless you think they're all communists but then we've come back full circle that you can't just collapse all your opponents into one homogenous blob.

@seanglennon4012

Жыл бұрын

@@jasonale that's a lot to respond to. For the last part you're going off the assumption that I haven't studied Marxism or socialism. I actually thought it was a great idea and I would say completely arrogant things like "communism just hasn't been done correctly yet" I decided to consider the things I talked about after being confronted separate times throughout my twenties by individuals who actually experienced communism and socialism. People from Russia, Cuba, Hungary, Poland, women who took care of baby refugees from massacres in Cambodia thanks to communist revolutionary Pol Pot. How many more ruthless dictators and innocent poor people need to die for the utopia? Communism is an ideology for close minded resentful, self righteous, intellectuals, I know becauseI was very similar at a young age. I definitely have a strong bias against horrendous ideas that fail miserably again and again and again. Dictator after Dictator. I decided to listen to those people and admit I was wrong. It's part of growing up. I stopped rolling my eyes everything someone challenged my views with valid data

Huge Peterson fan here, but i won't serve as an apologist. This critique has been one of the best I've seen. I appreciate you didn't throw any ad hominem his way, it adds a lot of integrity I haven't found in other critiques on the matter. The point on Marxism and group conflict is a really interesting and useful rebuttal to Peterson's proposition that I have come to bare and I will definitely be reevaluating his use of terminology. Hopefully, Peterson fans won't cling onto him when people produce well done critiques like this. I hope people don't come away from this video thinking Peterson is subsequently brash on other issues. To others questioning him, I would suggest listening to his Personality and its Transformations course on his channel to understand why many people turn to him as an academic. Hopefully people will be able to take Peterson's ideas for what their worth, and not sell it all in one packet as good or bad.

@Fefnefef

6 жыл бұрын

H C I agree. I think peterson is fronting a very important issue in canada where i am regarding the speech laws, but perhaps he has some other subjects less refined than he does clinical psychology. I would really like to see a discussion with peterson and someone well read on these subjects and see what comes of it.

@CitizenSnips314

6 жыл бұрын

Isn't that what happened when he met up with Sam Harris? And nothing good really came of it; Peterson made a fool of himself. Too bad, I really liked his performance on Channel 4.

@roscoedash6673

6 жыл бұрын

A broken clock is right twice a day. Canada's anti-free-speech laws are ridiculous, but they're the classic case of picking on low-hanging fruit. Someone with an academic background like Peterson who spouts so much new-age nonsense and constantly argues against strawmen is, to me, either an incompetent or a charlatan.

@Fefnefef

6 жыл бұрын

I Swear I'm Not a Troll alright but he didn't pick that low hanging fruit, it picked him. the whole issue gained momentum through the nuances of the purposed laws on hate speech involving pronouns and he gained a large following based on that.

@neoepicurean3772

6 жыл бұрын

This critique isn't anywhere near the best of Peterson. His metaphysics are much more shady than his views on postmodernism. And The Frankfurt school (who were Marxists) DID redefine the class struggle of proletariat vs bourgeoise to a general struggle between oppressed vs oppressor, which did spawn identity politics. I don't have any problem with Peterson using a very generalised view of this, as it's a pretty complicated story that would take up way to much time in a lecture which isn't purely about this subject.

Labeling "non-conservatives" as "Marxist" is a common trope in the conservative world. Helps them manufacture irrational fear.

@davidabdollahi7906

Жыл бұрын

That is actually so true. I suspected as such that they just put the lable of Marxism on any of their "foes"! I'm glad someone else has noticed that as well.

@mafumofu986

Жыл бұрын

Yup, just how the left calls all their opponents fascist bigots. It's just two big cults having a go at each other

@Baddaby

8 ай бұрын

And has been for over a century

@carlpanzram7081

8 ай бұрын

It's the rights equivalent of the word "fascist". Anyone who disagrees with me is automatically part of the group that was most unsuccessful and unethical in their practice. It's basically saying "ah, you are one of those evil loosers" 😂 The actual content of fascist/Marxist believe is irrelevant, it's used as a slur.

@saintsword23

8 ай бұрын

When most people on either side have intelligence falling far short of the ability for original, critical thought (I mean that literally as an observation, not as sarcasm or negative judgment), both the idea that "there's lots of Marxists on the Left" and "there's an overdiagnosis of Marxism on the Right" seem credible.

It's not that he doesn't understand. It's that post-modernism evolved to something that is not the text book definition of it. Saying "post-modernd marxist" is a contradiction in and of itself. But those people, that group of people, is not known for their logic and reasoning.

@luga2946

5 ай бұрын

it's a contraddiction because every real marxist would reject the post modern view and would label it as reactionary andnot revolutionary

@naughtyengineer2091

4 ай бұрын

No. He is literally saying that the OG postmodernist philosophers were actually marxists in disguise. Did you even watch the video?

Some remarks: I was going to respond to every single point made in the comment section, but the video got an unexpectedly large amount of views and I can't keep up with the comments anymore. I'm sorry, but thank you for all the views and the constructive comments both critical and not. One frequent criticism is that on the first point, I should have talked about what was going on in academia at the time, rather than in the general public. That's a fair point, and my brief comment that the movement "included prominent academics" should've been elaborated. During the 60s, one major movement in French academia was structural Marxism, represented by Althusser, who also collaborated with marxists such as Étienne Balibar, Jacques Rancière and Pierre Macherey. This was a major academic movement and these theorists never abandoned Marxism. There were other popular Marxists, for example Henri Lefebvre. Later also the influential and still living Badiou. So, yes, it was not just the general public that kept Marxism alive. There were many prominent Marxist academics who were popular and influential. One more remark I'd like to make is that Peterson being a clinical psychologist doesn't mean people are not allowed to criticise him, like some people in the comments think. This video is about philosophy, not psychology.

@billbogg3857

6 жыл бұрын

Why do you have to keep up ..? Just let the comments run. You want the debate conducted on your own terms -a device you inherited from the Marxists . In it's modern guise it is called 'no platforming ' and where do we see that but among the SJW crowd. No connection between Marxism and post modernism then...

@jonasceikaCCK

6 жыл бұрын

A lot of the comments directly address me with questions and criticisms. Replying to peoples' points isn't part of a marxist conspiracy

@allypoum

6 жыл бұрын

Also the Situationists were essentially Marxists on acid...

@marcusaurelius9407

6 жыл бұрын

Good video. I need to watch more stuff like this to be sure I am not unfairly criticizing post modernism.

@meepk633

6 жыл бұрын

Your JP imitation makes me feel dirty.

As a huge fan of Peterson, thank you for this video. I also feel that Peterson hasn’t read enough on Postmodernism and its history. I still believe deconstruction is incorrect, but I applaud you for writing a specific and professional critic. Also, I love how you specifically invited us Peterson fans, it shows that you actually care about truth an knowledge rather than just hating Peterson.

@joeyrasmussen8394

4 жыл бұрын

Learn what deconstruction is first maybe

@boser2562

4 жыл бұрын

@@joeyrasmussen8394 as in not making somthing good look bad for the sake of it. I like it because it shows other ways of looking at things but i also think that deconstructing every just for the sake of it defeats the point of deconstruction. Which i belive is to highlight an authors/individuals problems/ ideas about with what ever is being deconstructed but highlighting every thing as an area of improvment at the same time has no direction. sorry if what i wrote is a bit waffly/vague, i dont quite know where you stand so its generalised

@joaomarcoscosta4647

4 жыл бұрын

@@boser2562It seems to me that you are talking about the vaguely defined way people on the internet use the word deconstruction (you know, stuff like "Madoka Magica is a deconstruction of magical girls") instead of the form of semiotic analysis developed by Derrida. Although I must admit that most of my knowledge on the subject comes from a previous video Cuck Philosophy mentioned: kzread.info/dash/bejne/anppsrd-kqa4gaw.html I should probably start reading the original works at some point if I intend to engage in meaningful discussion. ^^;

@PsilentMusicUK

4 жыл бұрын

@@boser2562 My understanding of the concept is that we should deconstruct things in order to discover if there is value in what we find in that somethings "opposite", not to go into it with the presumption that what we will find will definitely be valuable. Plenty of things have "opposites" that harbor nothing of value whatsoever, but we don't know until we look.

@anthonynichols3857

4 жыл бұрын

@@boser2562 However, what usually happens is the void is filled with more Kripkean dogmatism...which is why, if we disregard everything Peterson, we are still stuck with those that believe Socialism/Marxism/Bernstrinism/Anarcho-Syndicalism (or whatever collectivist ideology) is good. I was reading Proudhon's "What is Property" earlier this evening and couldn't get past his arrogance and repetitive digressions when he attempts to set a premise. It reminded me of the clickbait stories online with too many slides never getting to the point. And many people use him as the kind version of Socialism...along with Bernstein...who has the same issue as Proudhon. When I think about it Marx, Lenin, and Hitler wrote the same way. Anyway, maybe the goal was to nauseate the reader into agreement. The Postmodernists manipulate the meaning of the words so it's difficult to argue.

I'm getting some light Ayn Rand vibes from Stephen Hicks and Jordan Peterson. Nothing shows how little you know about philosophy than calling your personal philosophy "objectivism," as if what you have to say is objective truth while other philosophies are all subjective.

@tomitiustritus6672

2 жыл бұрын

But to be fair, i don't think thats accidental or mere narcissism. Giving your ideology the air of being objective, of being the "hard truth", that those who hold other views deny in their idealized dreamworld, is one of the most common tricks of demagogery. Whenever they can't uproot someones moral compass by appealing to a divine or quasi divine moral authority (which is really just this same thing with an extra abstraction), they do it by invoking realism and pragmaticism. This not only holds the lure of "being the seeing one among the blinded", but it also overwrites peoples moral compass and can be used to make people do, support and justify actions that they wouldn't otherwhise for ethical concerns. Because "that's what the situatiom demands". There is a famous speech of Heinrich Himmler to his SS-troops in Posen 1943 where he acknowledges that they have done things that make every moral fibre in their bodies revolt, but praises it as a true sign of virtue that they did it anyway, because they knew it was the thing that needed to be done. Today, you find far right politicians like Björn Höcke write that"a policy of well calculated cruelty" was neccessary and that "measures are neccessary, that will go against the ethical sentimentalities of the indigenous population" but it needs to be done to secure their own future. (In his book "Nie zweimal in den selben Fluss".) This rhetoric is the anatomy of atrocity. That's how CIA torturers talk. That's how a russian assassin speaks to himself before murdering an opposition leader. That's how you make workers and peasants, who revolted against their bosses and governments repression, support another repressive government/workplace structure, because they think this is the scientifically correct step towards a classless society. This is how you make people in an east german marketplace chant "Drown! Drown! Drown!" when the speaker mentions refugee and rescue boats in the mediterranean, because they think the people in those boats may endanger the humanist and humanitarian values of europe. This is how you make people fill Cyklon B into a chamber full of people, because your "biologists" say they are a different, lesser, kind of human that your kind of human is struggling with in an evolutionary battle. This is how you make people support economics of cruelty, because they think that economy is a science with hard laws, like physics, that demand obedience, like gravity does. "Knowing" you're being the objective one in the conversation gives a feeling of superiority and makes it easy to just dismiss others criticisms. And it makes it possible to justify things that you know are ethically wrong, because for you, they are now demanded by reality and ethics or ideals are now a luxury for those daydreamers.

I wonder what people from 3000s call their philosophy: Post-apocalyptic post(13) modernism?

So, turns out Peterson has even less grasp of postmodernism than those campus tutors he is always slating. Best critique of Peterson so far.

@Averyofthemain

4 жыл бұрын

its actually kind of weak.

@benjaminperez6756

4 жыл бұрын

@@Averyofthemain that's the saddest part, if you only need this weak rebuttal to counter your points then that's really really sad

@Averyofthemain

4 жыл бұрын

@@benjaminperez6756 below i left a comment detailing the speakers weakness in the rebuttal, take a look.

This is exactly the reason why academic tribalism is dangerous - an interdisciplinary approach that demands that people learn to hear opposing views is paramount if our culture is to get anywhere.

@eve3363

4 жыл бұрын

Uh, that's what Peterson is advocating. Wow!

@MrElectronix808

4 жыл бұрын

Sailor He actually preaches discourse, bur also realises this generation we’re living in is nowhere close to achieving it.

@prunonz479

4 жыл бұрын

@@eve3363 Sure, but he can't see his own tribalistic behavior

@eve3363

4 жыл бұрын

@@prunonz479 Can you explain how his ideas are tribalistic, also disregarding the fact that it is human nature to be a part of a group.

@prunonz479

4 жыл бұрын

@@eve3363 I didn't say his ideas are tribalistic as much as they are skewed, but I'm refering to his behavior is tribalistic. He's had ONE debate with someone one the left who's got a brain cell (Slavoj Zizek, who basically ripped him a new one) apart from that he's been giving long speeches like a preacher to a choir, or talking to people who are intellectually inferior(e.g students, or dimwitted journalists who there to put him down.) He thrives in debative scenarios, ...where his opponent normally is a dimwit. But where are e.g. the cultural marxists or the biology-denying social constructivists? Sure, there are kids in the twenties - but that's not really what he's referring to. In fact, Marxists hate identity politics, it's not their creation (the few of them who exist, and no, I don't agree with them). He's basically creating a fiction of his opponent without allowing them to defend themselves. It's typical tribal behavior.Then look at how he handles the important question of whether God would exist if mankind ceased to be..(asked by Sam Harris) well, he weasled himself out of that one, then says it depends on how it looks like it. Funny. That's the method his alleged postmodern reality-denying boogie men use. So where's the integration, the non-tribal behavior in that? He's basically never gone into unknown waters, since he's defensive, by default, he's strategic, i.e tribal. He doesn't see his own mix of Christianity, Evoltionary theory and Jungian psychology as ideological, because people don't see their own opinions as "ideologies".. A tribalistic behavior, i.e WE know the truth, THEY are odd. Richard Dawkins at least dares to debate those who oppose his views. Peterson stays in his comfort zone and paints up an enemy whom he fails to discuss with. He talks about them, but that's it. Let him talk about Foucault with someone who studies Foucault for instance.. It's not gonna happen.

Very good points here, for example your clarification of power-knowledge in Foucault. There has been far too little public acknowledgment of that. But I would add the following. Any kind of argument or technique of persuasion is for Foucault a practice of power. Foucauldian power-knowledge, however, among the poststructuralists, was understood as analogous to a kind of pro-scientific aura about empirically minded, logic-based discourses -- e.g., the linguistics of language acquisition, Chomsky and so on, and analytic philosophy, hence, e.g., Deleuze's derisive opinion of those movements. The French poststructuralists did write in such a way as to resist those naturalistic, hard-minded disciplines. But they had meaningful reasons for doing so, not the absurd, immoral reasons of which Peterson accuses them. Instead, poststructuralists meant to counter outright flaws and misconceptions in those types of philosophy. But they also meant to resist what they saw as those methods use of their image of objectivity as a superficial tool of persuasion and control.

I've never read into what post-modernism or marxism actually are. All I know is, when I hear Jordan Peterson speak, I hear a person with an agenda grabbing anything they can to try to support what they want to believe as opposed to a series of things learned over time that lead to an epiphany. If I learned anything from this video it's that I need to read more to understand this video.

@quintusantell2912

5 ай бұрын

Peterson is a great example of empty rhetoric and double-speaking. There is an agenda Peterson must speak around because his ideas are either not well formed or his ideas are not publicly acceptable. I can only assume that people have been sniffing Petersons farts for so long that Peterson thinks everyone enjoys the smell and calls it perfume.

@fmellish71

3 ай бұрын

Yes, he starts by motivating them to clean their room and the like, fills their head with fragmented, cherry-picked views of Jung and ties them into empirical Christian-based self-determinism and then attacks woke culture by accusing them of using a branch of philosophical study that has nothing to do with them. I watched his videos round '18 and became fascinated with Jung and then realized that Jung's work doesn't have much to do with Peterson's agenda and that's what turned me off of him which I then read postmodern thinkers and realized he doesn't understand them.

i think the essence of postmodernism is that no one knows what it is

@ianator999

4 жыл бұрын

Well most of the writers who we'd define as postmodernist rarely or never used the word to describe themselves. It's more of a broad approach than an ideology or concrete set of ideas

@arandompanda1349

4 жыл бұрын

Ye and change it to their benefit🤷‍♂️

@greg77389

4 жыл бұрын

Hmm, sounds a lot like communism...

@noninvasive_rectal_probe8990

4 жыл бұрын

The best comment in this section. The most sane one.

@bygmesterfinnegan6938

4 жыл бұрын

Am Ham And what the fuck is your name supposed to mean? Do you want me to make racist assumptions about you too? Ignorant pig

“They transform the marxist dialogue of rich vs poor into oppressed vs oppressor” Hegel wouldn’t like this

@MrLuckyMuffin

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly Jordan is in fact correct

@mikeappleget482

4 жыл бұрын

MrLuckyMuffin So all the conservatives crying about “the swamp” are Marxists??

@MrLuckyMuffin

4 жыл бұрын

Mike Appleget no when did I say that

@Jmcinally94

4 жыл бұрын

@@MrLuckyMuffin "Draining the swamp" was one of the campaign promises of Donald Trump. It's how he convinced people he was on the side of the "every man".

@MrLuckyMuffin

4 жыл бұрын

Jamie McInally he is draining it dude. At least in part

So essentially Peterson is doing here what I've always felt coming from him: strawmen & red herring arguments. He makes a claim that is not based in an historical or textual understanding of the subject - he stands up something he doesn't like (i.e. "Marxism" or "social justice warrior") as examples of postmodernism thinking - then conveniently redefines what postmodernism is, what postmodernists said or supported & then equates his false narrative of racial politics etc with his false idea of what postmodernism even is. He's a fairly clever debator but I think the funny thing about his speaking is he's actually guilty of something he constantly accuses others of: inserting his politics into everything he discusses, even when totally unrelated.

I love the way pictures looked in the 60s. The camera technology peaked then. Whenever I think of good philosophers doing good philosophizing I always picture them in this crisp greyscale with high contrast.

@DanielLopez-ob9jz

Жыл бұрын

Uh....... what? You may like it aesthetically, but 'peaked' is an extraordinarily strong word and is not true by like..... any metric. You could say that about like... the audio space in the 80-90s, but cameras?

@nickscurvy8635

Жыл бұрын

@@DanielLopez-ob9jz this comment should not be taken to be a serious treatise or discourse on camera technology.

"Which means that, according to Peterson, any ideology involving group conflict is Marxism" Close, but actually it should read "Any ideology that challenges the status quo is marxism"

@mrFredmaestro

4 жыл бұрын

I feel that those statements are almost interchangeable I suppose your reading is more specific however any challenge of the status group must involve conflict between at least one group challenging the status quo and at least one upholding it

@jonathanwells223

3 жыл бұрын

More accurate would be: any ideology that wants to annihilate the status quo and not solve any problems that this inevitably causes is Marxism

@prierepanda2186

3 жыл бұрын

@lagooned Power hierarchies is a marxist idea ? Just think about this phrase for a minute.

Nice try, Ethan from H3H3

@giggity1471

6 жыл бұрын

Lol nice

@heyyo3807

6 жыл бұрын

Glink double agent

@pilldolan9918

6 жыл бұрын

I'm subscribed to you and h3h3, and I don't get it.

@heyyo3807

6 жыл бұрын

pill dolan he just sounds like Ethan. Like his voice.

@genebrady

6 жыл бұрын

he sounds like FrankJavCee.

There is somewhere 10h long video with Rationality Rules Steven guy and two other guys discuss ling this as well in great detail. This is awesome video as well 🎉🎉

One of the major reasons why JP became so huge as he is in the media today is from the angle at which the aforesaid media approaches him and his character which he can and have dismantled effortlessly because that strawman they built doesn't happen to be his character in the end. I suppose as a professor of psychology and someone who's recently become a recurring public speaker, sometimes used as a poster boy for certain groups, he relies too often on broad generalizations to get his points across; leading to the criticisms this video has highlighted.

@kindlethisfire

Жыл бұрын

it also seems he just doesn't know his shit sometimes (I was able to get the gist of what op said)

@Sp1n1985

Жыл бұрын

@@kindlethisfire I think you missed what op said. Jp speaks in generalities and that upsets those who think they are special

@bobbiecat8000

Жыл бұрын

​@@Sp1n1985 it literally says "strawman built for him", read more I guess?

@Sp1n1985

Жыл бұрын

@@bobbiecat8000 A generality isn't a "strawman". It's the median. Have fun learning.

@Agonal

Жыл бұрын

@@Sp1n1985Glad too see someone who understands

Whenever I have researched what academics or experts say about their field vs what people outside of that field of study say, I have found that the people outside of the field don't understand it and the people inside it are making very reasonable claims that are hard to argue with. Moral of the story, if someone tells you that a group of academics or experts believe or claim something, go read actual literature by them first, then get tired of having to do so much research to learn that academics and experts in many cases know what they are talking about and are better equipped to talk about it than people outside of the group. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@jamesrussell5196

5 жыл бұрын

Why doesn’t anyone ever think about this

@hayk3000

4 жыл бұрын

I've been thinking about this trying to figure out what should I think. My father used to talk about conspiracy theories since I was 13, so I've gained some distrust because of that and tried to think about things all by myself in fear of the possibility that humanity has been thinking with false information and I didn't want to be influenced by it. And after some life events and a major depression I gave up on this intelectual isolation to be happy and come to realize the reasons why conspiracy theories exist and that humanity has been thinking about stuff for thousands of years and someone has already thought a solution to the stupid thing you're stuck on overthinking. Oh boy sorry for the life story.

@Averyofthemain

4 жыл бұрын

It seems you think academics have some empirical restraint and that whole fields can't have an irrational bias towards one philosophy or another, if this was ever true it hasn't been true for a very long time.

@MrLuckyMuffin

4 жыл бұрын

Averyofthemain exactly man

@markorendas1790

4 жыл бұрын

ITS LIKE SAYING HARD ROCK IS HEAVY METAL...

Thank you for providing actual quotes from Derrida and Foucault that are truly coherent and reasonable. This is a compelling antidote to the common perception that these two only wrote word salad.

@jengleheimerschmitt7941

4 жыл бұрын

🤣 Derrida bragged about how much word salad he was able to serve. I don't think anyone used the word "only", that was you.

@liamnewsom8583

2 жыл бұрын

Yay

@mikeno8192

Жыл бұрын

No quote from Deridat and Foucault are reasonable - how gullible are you? Peterson understands postmodernism very well, to a tea, and shreds it. Post modernism is a farce - a French Farce and was constructed largely by a gay man who had sex with young boys - Foucault. Due to power structures not at the time catering to his interest.

@mikeno8192

Жыл бұрын

The moronic narrator here overlooks a significant point made by Peterson - postmodernism appeals to the less intellectual - and only infiltrates up to 5% of many ppls perspective (most specifics aren’t known by adherents but the gist permeates their perspective) and naturally postmodern thought - the French brand of it, compliments each other and whilst hard to define, all essentially reiterate the same illogical themes. So regarding postmodernism generally is simply regarding it in the way in which it pervades universities. Thematically, and without too much appraisal - whether it’s the patriarchy, discourse emphasis or male gaze, the perspectives run off each other and are not for real intellectuals. They’re simply insane and anti the west

@KnobCreekBandit

Жыл бұрын

interesting how many postmodernists, including focoult, were pro paedophilia. Mark Twain famously said something along the lines"if you're on the side of paedophilia, you may want to reconsider your thoughts".

Ha the part about Zizek was a real riot! Great video btw, thank you very much.

This is a good reminder of the fact that philosophy and psychology diverged well over a century ago- expertise in one field has no credence in the other.

@scepticalchymist

8 ай бұрын

They diverged because one field developed into a more exact science. And it was not philosophy.

@greanbeen2816

8 ай бұрын

@@scepticalchymist Well, only one of them ever purported to be a science. Science itself is an offshoot of empirical philosophy, or the epistemological belief that knowledge is derived from observation. Per those same empirical systems, science is purely a set of predictive models. Science makes no claims about the underlying truth of a phenomenon, only about the observable characteristics it exhibits. This is why, for example, the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics are both widely accepted despite being mutually contradictory. It doesn’t matter, because they both _work_ . So when I say psychological expertise does not make one an expert philosopher, I say that while one may have a complex, empirically-backed model of the mind, but it does nothing to extend or detract from their ability to make any claims beyond that. Even if you don’t like postmodernism, which is a valid position, your critique cannot possibly merit serious consideration until you actually understand the source material.

@MEGAsporg12

3 ай бұрын

​@@scepticalchymistwhat are you trying to say lol. Are you actually trying to discredit philosophy as a concept 💀

@scepticalchymist

3 ай бұрын

@@MEGAsporg12 Not all of philosophy. Only that part that never evolved from the "how many angels fit onto the tip of a needle" question (scholastics and postmoderns).

@MEGAsporg12

3 ай бұрын

@@scepticalchymist tell me how you never read postmoderns without telling me lol

When you don't know what postmodernism is, so you decide that it's Marxism because you don't know what that is either

@13tuyuti

4 жыл бұрын

I guess both are a form of personal hygiene...

@paula889

3 жыл бұрын

@F K Lol, they rarely stop at being wrong twice!

@tehdreamer

3 жыл бұрын

Enlighten me how Peterson does not know what Marxism is?

@nealejames2243

3 жыл бұрын

Postmodernists still aren't sure what Postmodernism is

@retroblue69696

3 жыл бұрын

When you come from the future and you realize jbp was right and predicted that the far left would rise, out of the marxist training centers they call universities.

Just a funny thing to point out: Zizeck has that one picture of Stalin, but Peterson has said on multiple occasions that his house is full of Soviet propaganda paintings.

@ib7566

5 жыл бұрын

not propoganda paintings, just soviet artwork.

@blixer8384

5 жыл бұрын

Jordan Peterson is either the Canadian Ben Carson, or this is all some sort of social experiment testing group think and cognitive dissonance.

@areez22

5 жыл бұрын

@@ib7566 Propaganda paintings they are, as Peterson says.

@eltlaw

4 жыл бұрын

@@areez22 Yeah, but Peterson thinks Disney's "Frozen" is deeply propagandist. So his house could be full of soviet street signs for all we know - and he thinks they're propaganda.

you repeatedly cutting off JP's endless rambling about the shit he's constantly misrepresenting is hilarious to no end to me lmao

@MGSVxBreakpoint

3 жыл бұрын

Peterson really should not be talking about this. Postmodern philosophy is not out to get anyone. It is theory and should be treated as such

My main critique or issue with postmodernist philosophy and literature is that it feels as if it was written with the express purpose of being as confusing and incomprehensible as possible. Even by the standards of philosophy, which is FULL of unnecessarily verbose and confusing works, postmodernist literature is in a realm of its own. The result is that if you speak to people and ask them to explain it to you, you get wildly different answers which are often contradictory. If you go and read the source directly you come out the other end wondering if those other people you spoke to were reading the same book. The funniest thing is that that experience (of trying to understand postmodernism) is postmodernist. 😂 doesn't excuse how insufferable the theory is to read!

Shoulda seen my conservative friend’s face when I told him South Park is post modern.

@zeenuf00

3 жыл бұрын

South Park is actually a spoof of postmodernism. But you'd actually need a grasp of nuance to understand that.

@hopebringer2348

3 жыл бұрын

@@zeenuf00 r/iamverysmart

@fruitylerlups530

3 жыл бұрын

@@zeenuf00 how is it a spoof of post modernism? It engages in very post-modern fictional tropes, the juxtaposition of spectacular worldviews from different characters towards either a sterile or inconcievable reality none of them can grasp, anti-authoritarian themes, self-referentiality and use of metanarratives, and most importantly the use of Pastiche is heavily relied upon in South Park. South Park is an aggressively post modern work of fiction.

@baguette7851

3 жыл бұрын

@@fruitylerlups530 it's a cartoon

@Copperhell144

3 жыл бұрын

@Ben J Yes, a cartoon which happens to be a post modern work of fiction. Just because some adjectives are "complicated words" doesn't mean they can't be properties of "simple things like cartoons".

Having studied postmodernism in architecture waaaay back in the mid 1990's, my recollection of the overarching themes of the French post-modern philosophers (Baudrillard, Lyotard etc.); 1. Progress has reached it's apogee, in fact 'progress' in itself in nothing more than a particular narrative. 2. History is entirely subjective, there are no facts just opinions. 3. Words have power and the analysis of anything written says more about the author than any 'empirical facts'. 4. There are no rules, all of history, all totalities, all symbology can be raided to communicate ones own reality. 5. Social systems, cultures, languages, empirical science, building types are artificial constructs and all can (and will?) be challenged. 6. It refuses to be defined...because it reject totalities. I don't recall anything in my studies that implied anything about specific hierarchies, other than the idea that narratives have no substance other than to project the 'power' of one system over 'others'. My overarching sense of the postmodern movement was the dreadful nihilism at it's heart. I saw nothing particularly Marxist about it other than many of its exponents were previously Marxist (Baudrillard, Jameson et al) and that many of the arguments were actually critiques of Marxist theory of universal meta-discourses. I suppose one could accept that it was inherently revolutionary and seemed to aim at the heart of established 'norms' (just like Marxism)...frankly I thought the whole thing stunk of sophistry. What use is the end of history? It does explain why contemporary buildings seem so universally lacking in soul.

@McDeus

6 жыл бұрын

I'm no expert, but I don't think anyone involved in po-mo ever actually claimed "there are no facts." The idea is more that you can't communicate ABOUT reality without participating in the assertion of some kind of social power (your own or someone else's) because those "power relations" are always inherent in the way we communicate about anything. This makes perfectly objective knowledge of what is true or what isn't true impossible, but it doesn't mean there is no truth out there to be understood. I don't think they deny that truth can be understood, either--just that if you hear two different versions of it, your decision about which one you agree with is going to be influenced by your political affiliations (under a very broad definition of what counts as "politics"--basically your loyalty to your own or anyone else's desire to gain and assert power over others in any way), and there's no way you could possibly avoid being biased in that fashion. So it's really more a claim that "unbiased perception of facts is impossible" than a claim that "there's no such as actual facts."

@tripleoo0

6 жыл бұрын

How does that impossible nature of objectivity present itself in the real world, though? By extension, without an omniscient governing body to act as judge, what is factual might as well be considered useless by the standards of postmodernism. As far as how I see it practiced, it is almost universally a rejection of truth for the convenience of narrative, or "what is true for me," regardless of any political or religious factors. Whatever the claim might be, theory is not practice.

@maroo747

5 жыл бұрын

you should definitely write more, your writing is coherent and eloquent.

@avilinsky

5 жыл бұрын

@McDeus, communicating one's reality and fundamental beliefs (be they social, scientific, informal or other) will forever be an act of asserting one's knowledge base in the face of a fellow-listener. That's the lion's share of communication when INFLUENCING our group members (family, friends, colleagues, students, citizens, you name it) is the objective of our communicative efforts. Po-mo brings nothing new to realizing this basic human trait. What po-mo does is "sell" the idea that our attempts at influencing through conveying messages should be registered as nothing more than attempts to influence, and therefore should not be heeded even if they represent a valuable truth. Certain statements about how we should enact ourselves in society have proven worth to them, so no po-mo acrobatics about how truth is only true because one wishes it to be so will change that.

@McDeus

5 жыл бұрын

@Avi Ilinsky Well I don't think "should not be heeded" or "truth is only true because one wishes it to be so" is a logical interpretation of what the po-mo philosophers actually say. These are reductionist interpretations that paint the ideas of things like the purpose or usefulness of communication as simple--but one thing I do know about po-mo is that nothing is ever simple at all if you look at it from a po-mo philosophical perspective. Plus "Truth only becomes true because someone believes it or wants it to be true" isn't even really a po-mo idea. That's actually Solipsism, which is a whole different thing unto itself. (And Peterson seems to be getting Postmodernism mixed up with Neo-Marxism, which is also a whole separate philosophical movement unto itself, not the same thing as Postmodernism. The two groups tend to debate with each other a lot, so you can see the mutual influences, but Marxism is fundamentally a very "Modernist" ideology. A certain number of Marxists in the world even like to claim that Marxism is a "science" rather than an ideology, because they think it's all based on definitively figuring out what is objectively true so you can change a society the same basic way you'd re-engineer a complicated piece of machinery.) I think someone like Foucault or Derrida would say "no, if the information you're being given is valuable to you, then obviously you definitely should heed it." What they're saying is more along the lines of "but the person who told you that wouldn't have told you if there wasn't something valuable to *them* about the act of telling you--so before you decide whether or not they're giving you information valuable enough to heed, ask yoursTelf how it benefits them to have you listen to them, and then figure out whether what's beneficial to them about saying it is also beneficial to you if you listen to it." Po-mo is virtually never about reductionism--it's pretty much always about saying that something is much more complex than you might think it is. E.g Derrida's point with the whole "deconstruction" thing is NOT that he's trying to argue that words don't mean anything, or that words don't convey information. He's saying that any word you ever use actually conveys MORE information, and more KINDS of information, than just the obvious and literal definition of what the word means. Or in other words, he's basically arguing that every time any of us ever speak to each other, we're actually saying all kinds of different thing that we probably don't realize we're saying. (To figure out what these "hidden" meanings are, you have to look at things like the historical origins of the word, the patterns of which groups of people use that word more or less often than certain other groups of people and why, etc.--i.e. you have to "take it apart" or "deconstruct" it to understand the logic of WHY it means what you're accustomed to using it to refer to, and what other kinds of meanings it could have based on extrapolating from that logic.) A lot of the big famous names in po-mo (definitely including Foucault, Derrida, and Saussure) weren't exactly philosophers as much as they were anthropologists. What they were mainly trying to do was come up with new ways of figuring out why various human cultures are different from each other, what causes cultures to change over time, and why various cultures work the way they do. The more abstract philosophical implications--questions like "what does truth mean?" or "is it possible to know what is true or untrue?"--were usually secondary in importance to the more anthropological kinds of questions like "How does any one person ever gain power over another person?" or "How do people resolve disputes with each other when they can't agree with each other about what is true and what isn't true?"

10:00 btw, just to strengthen Jonas' point further that Derrida described the centre as a necessary function, read Derrida's short book, "Monolingualism of the Other: or, the Prosthesis of Origin. The origin, the centre, is prosthetic for Derrida, not organic, or primordial as we find in Heidegger. It's a constructed origin, a prosthesis we need to function in a world. And like any prosthetic, it can be changed, altered, exchanged and fits the person for whom it is built, thus it is not universal nor an origin and centre for all. But it's still a centre, still necessary for functioning.

11:25 Peterson mentioning Quantum Mechanics as some supposed opposition towards "social justice warriors" whom love postmodernism is rather strange. Deleuze was heavily influenced by Henri Bergson, an early architect of Quantum Mechanics, and so much so that he wrote an entire work compiling concepts and philosophical systems around the philosophical and scientific thought of Bergson, this piece being called "Bergsonism." To think that postmodernists reject science, and using quantum mechanics as an example, is a rather subtle indicator to me that Peterson doesn't know much at all about postmodernism and it's wider purpose within philosophical dialogue and the history of ideas. Deleuze, in the vein of Nietzsche, questioned science's use in a political manner; with ideas such as social darwinism being justified with skewed perceptions of scientific research. This also served to question the widely held belief that science was "objective" in every aspect. Rudolf Hess infamously stated that Nazism was just "applied biology." Modernism was filled with such perceptions of science, and using scientific ideas to incredibly questionable political ends. How could any reasonable person not question this? It appears that Peterson doesn't want to.

@theWebWizrd

5 жыл бұрын

It is not at all strange that Peterson would make the connection and critizise it given his outlook and use of words. It is rather well-known that there are plenty of student groups in identity politics that believe science as we know it is inherently relative to culture and context, and as such should be deconstructed. This is very reminiscent of post-modernism, and it might very well be that they themselves would claim it to be post-modern thinking. Peterson's point is that there must be something *universal* about quantum mechanics, since the science behind it can be used to power iPhones in the US, Kongo, the Phillipines, on Mars, whether you believe in Odin or Allah - really in whatever context you want to put it. This universality is seeminly rejected by these student activists and from his point of view by extension post-modernists.

@akmonra

5 жыл бұрын

"This also served to question the widely held belief that science was "objective" in every aspect." You just admitted his point. Postmodernists reject the objectivity of science. Yet, an iPhone wouldn't work if quantum mechanics was wrong. You're just illustrating his point. And I have no idea what you mean by Henri Bergson being an 'early architect of Quantum Mechanics'. Bergson perpetuated the same anti-rationalist garbage Deleuze did. Bergson was the dumbass who didn't understand relativity, and helped ensure Einstein didn't get a Nobel Prize for the greatest discovery of our age. I'm not even sure what you mean by 'architect': it's a science, not a construction job. Planck, Born, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, and yes, even Einstein, these were the early scientists of quantum mechanics.

@weatheranddarkness

5 жыл бұрын

"This universality is seemingly rejected by these student activists and from his point of view by extension post-modernists" I think the "seemingly" is why we're in a mire here. Those who want to discredit the whole entirety of everything that Petersen opposes, see far more rejection there than the core of any of that 'movement' actually supposes. There are, among some portions New Wave, hippie types who believe in a metaphysics that's rather less tied down, but they aren't the driving force of anything significant. I like to point at Fritjof Capra's "the Tao of Physics" as one of those pieces that may be responsible for some hippy thinkers eventual dissociation. But anyway, the real point is that IF there's really some sort of tied together movement against people like him, it's not that they disbelieve the universality of the cosmic background radiation, or quantum tunnelling, but that anthropological studies suffer deeply from cognitive biases, and the so called field of "evolutionary psychology" operates on tenuous grounds at best and it's impossible for it to be rigorous. And much of the world view espoused by Petersen supporters relies on an assumption that science tells us that societies were a very specific way, all the way back to the dawn of humans. Which is frankly, pretty fucking bananas. It's an unscientific field that has piss all to do with electrons bouncing around and higgs fields. All of this gets compounded by every side pointing to the fallibility of the peer review process.

@FaustCrowley

5 жыл бұрын

I am bumbling my way through the history of philosophy now and it seems to me that the postmodern view arises in large part BECAUSE of science--that is, theories of relativity within science caused some philosophers to question things that we had long felt were absolute.

@akmonra

5 жыл бұрын

That's a misunderstanding of relativity, then.

Damn man, the Hegel jump scare really got me 6:33

Thank You for Your valuable work here.

This is a superb piece. You should go further in your explanation of why JP purposefully fails to develop a defensible understanding of Marxism: He is consolidating the LARGEST POSSIBLE AUDIENCE he can by using "cultural Marxism" as an organizing principle for the random grab bag of views, attitudes, and practices he doesn't like. Because this IS what he's doing, JP doesn't care whether the label makes any sense. He also doesn't care whether actual Marxists hold any of the views he attributes to them. The ONLY THING that matters is aggregating a large audience so he can continue to generate revenue from their eyeballs. Bottom line: JP, like Facebook, is just an ad tech platform. Nothing more, nothing less. This ^^^ also explains why JP will never actually learn anything about Marx, Derrida, or anyone else he casually castigates. For that would be contrary to his entrepreneurial goals.

Glad to see there are more people that recognize how loose is Peterson's use of the term Marxism. Another thing he does very frequently is to equate Marxism, neo-marxism and the left with his ideal of people who inspire to be professional victims. As if any of these terms could be equated, as if the "left" in any country could be seen as a monolith with the same agenda or ideology nowdays.

@jail13ot63

4 жыл бұрын

He's a clinical psychologist, he's aware of the overlapping demographic.

@ruymartinez4526

4 жыл бұрын

@@jail13ot63 The thing is, the center left (majority of the 'left' in Canada and the US) is capitalistic, aggravatingly so to actual Marxists, who are quite proud of the label. I'm not entirely convinced by Marx alone, but I'd say I'm a socialist. The issue isn't to say that those on their countries ideologically 'left of center' aren't somewhat related, insofar that minorities are still systemically disadvantaged, among other very wide demographical trends, but that conflating the ideas of the center left liberals with Marxists, who aren't hiding anything, trust me, and then jumbling post-modernism in a serious philosophical context is ridiculous. Furthermore, in any context such statements would be very disingenuous, as post-modernists and Marxists and liberals disagree a lot, and in many cases, fundamentally. Funnily enough, if you look carefully at the positions of the center right 'liberal' parties in Europe or Canada, they conflate similarly with center left views in the US. How are the same demographics of the US left of center then so different from those in the UK? Even the assumption that there are recognizable ideological demographics is tenuous at best.

@napoleonbonaparteempereurd4676

4 жыл бұрын

@@jail13ot63 Psychologist, not historian. Nuff said.

@carolusastabrataasta5481

3 жыл бұрын

I like and agree on JBP's point on how to understand and improving life a lot, but I agree with you here. I think his use of terms marxism can be quite loose and unfair. This criticism is fair, and I hope JBP can improve his thinking after meeting Zizek

@longliverocknroll5

3 жыл бұрын

@Ked Taczynski "They view history fundamentally as oppressor vs oppressed." Which is an *incredibly* loose connection, so much so that to make that the sole critique I had of that particular group of people, becomes meaningless.

Please make a second video on this. The way you introduce basic information on the different philosophers by contrasting Peterson’s understanding is amazing!

I thought he was wrong about something but the limit of my knowledge had prevented me to argue against him

@Gwenhwyfar7

2 жыл бұрын

lol you wanted him to be wrong

@jasonemery3618

2 жыл бұрын

I would guess that most people who believe this guy know just as little about postmodern or Marxism, as the people who believe Peterson. Most of the people who are engaged in these issues are mostly Ignorant about the subjects. If you have no means grounds for believing Peterson, then you have no grounds for believing this guys criticism.

@alexjames7144

Жыл бұрын

@@jasonemery3618 Whilst on the face of it this line of thinking is correct and I agree. In this video specifically the creator didn't seek to establish any views as fact or instil any beliefs in the audience. All he did was demonstrate that Jordan Peterson claimed various philosophers espoused a specific idea, using video evidence of Peterson saying exactly that, and provide written evidence of the actual writings of the philosophers demonstrating that what Peterson claimed was untrue. It does not rely on understanding of the whole ideas to demonstrate in simple points that Peterson misrepresented their arguments. And he does not attempt to make any claims himself as to the philosophy someone should live by. Whilst I agree that without individual research we are reliant on the speaker to have researched accurately and represent the information honestly, in this video specifically the evidence was presented to us such that we aren't reliant on trust. It is merely a collection of evidence presented to us. We are shown a claim by Peterson and a corresponding piece of evidence showing that claim to be false.

@Habasmall93

Жыл бұрын

You "thought" but you don't know what it is? Then "feeling" is a better term. You are not thinking at all there.

@alexjames7144

Жыл бұрын

@@Habasmall93 nobody likes a pedant

The most ironic thing about Peterson is the he's most likely a postmodern himself! Just listen to his conversations with sceptics like Sam Harris or Matt Dillahunty, or his positions about the nature of reality and truth. For Peterson truth is all about narrative. He's a pit of contradictions that guy.

@ErikPukinskis

5 жыл бұрын

My guess is at some point young academic feminists started using Derrida and Foucault to make careful, technical critiques within his own field (social psychology). He couldn't follow, but he could tell they were implementing a more advanced intellectual framework for his own ideas. So that was intensely threatening to him, as it presented a serious existential threat to his ability to continue to function in the academy. So he felt no choice but to draw a black box around them and take an personal stance against what he *felt* the box represented from the outside. But because he cut himself off from the vanguard of his own scholarly community, he has been unable to grow as a scholar, and is therefore forced to work increasingly in the popular press. Like a tree who cut off its roots and exclaims "I'm moss. I'm not a tree. Trees are awful." Edit: typo

@rolandgotha6575

5 жыл бұрын

He's not a social psychologist. Also, your notion of "advanced" is merely a technique of trying to gain power in order to maintain the structure of your worldview.

@ErikPukinskis

5 жыл бұрын

Roland, I admit it's purely speculative and I have all the details wrong. I have a hunch that something along those lines happened, in broad strokes. You're right on some level that this is an attempt at power projection. I certainly am open to questioning this worldview, and many of the things Peterson has said have helped me question things about my past beliefs.

@sarahmoreirautzig5525

5 жыл бұрын

Nah, JP is just confused. Postmodernism states that everything is a narrative, including the 'truth': our notion of truth is based on our understanding of reality, which is limited and subjective to the information we have about reality (e.g. scientific models and laws are just narratives that explain reality based on the limited information that we have: when scientists learn new information, they must come up with better models). But postmodernism does not negate that there's a reality external to the narrative, and that's where JP gets confused. Regarding his issue with women, I think he probably had a shitty mom, that's why he doesn't like women. But who knows?! Lol

@sarahmoreirautzig5525

5 жыл бұрын

@Muris Živojević _"Its wanting to make them be as he wants them to be. "_ That's precisely the point. Who says women want to be what he wants us to be? I'd say most of us don't. I know I don't. _Edit:_ which makes me conclude: he doesn't like women the way we are, he wants to shape us according to his ideal of womanhood. That's pretty shitty on his part and that's why most women don't like him. My other issue with Peterson is his belief that we need a god to be moral, that's stupid* and completely unscientific. Some people might need it, but not everyone. I don't; Sam Harris doesn't; and many other atheists don't need it. * Definition of stupidity: wilfulness to remain ignorant.

13:54 This is the greatest sentence of all time.

very very good video

To quote from "Barton Fink", what Jordan Peterson doesn't understand you could just about cram into the Hollywood Bowl!" He has found his niche: all he does is convince stupid people who never read anything why it is not worthwhile reading anything difficult (i.e., over his head). When he does recommend reading something, e.g., "The Brothers Karamazov", he makes a fool out of himself mixing up the main characters Dmitri and Ivan to such an extent as to make it clear that not only did he not read the novel but he can't even be bothered to review the Cliff Notes!

@milansvancara

6 ай бұрын

That is true, but this video was made 5 years ago when this was one of the biggest problems of JP... It was in the last years when his ego took gradually absolutely over his intellect and he is making up data and BS to feed republicans for money...

Its so funny how everything you said here become obvious in his debatte with Slavoj Zizek this month

I don't get the fascination with Peterson. The more I listened to him the more obvious it was that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's clearly winging it.

@NoisyHill_

5 жыл бұрын

But the (mostly) guys that listen to him, don't know what he is talking about as well. That is why they don't know how wrong he is... "Gurus" like him are often liked because they confirm what the audience likes to hear. They like to hear that the left is evil and that life and its meaning is much easier than what postmodernism or "leftists" say.. They want to hear that the traditional roles of men and women are right and inevitable because it's easier for them and they profit from it. It's a form of self assurance I guess.

@rocoreb

5 жыл бұрын

you write: "They like to hear that the left is evil and that life and its meaning is much easier than what postmodernism or "leftists" say." on a video that claims jp does not understands postmodernism. he actually says the exact opposite of what you are claiming he says. he says take control of your life, get your act together, life is not easy but hell. try to get through it with dignity. @@NoisyHill_

@anonanon6294

5 жыл бұрын

@@NoisyHill_ As far as I'm concerned Post-Modernism and Marxism can both suck a nut as they both equate to the same fundamental destruction and deterioration of the West.

@alephnull7410

5 жыл бұрын

Sparkling Wine “they don’t know how wrong he is . . .” Ok, and? Forget about JP as a person, it’s what he represents. Everyday people are tired of the ideologies being passed off as education in universities were big money is spent on training the young to “deconstruct”. Flush the humanities down the toilet it has become a set of infected disciplines.

@jseden

5 жыл бұрын

Ricardo Ed but if he's wrong, isn't his rhetoric still flawed without him?

"When i say a word it means exactly what i mean it to" Jordan Peterson

James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose have a lot to say about this. They, rather sufficiently imo, explain how postmodernism (being merely an analysis of society) Transformed into an actionable form (Applied Postmodernism), and was Made politicized. It was then merged with Communism to make Critical Theory and now here we are. That's what Jordan Peterson is missing in this example, it's the point of merger between the two ideologies, when postmodernism became political. And those ideas all have their own ideological thinkers too. I'd argue, tho, that postmodernism was always inherently political. It aimed to deconstruct mostly Western, capitalist society and you can't deconstruct something without then offering, or letting someone offer, an actionable solution. And that's where Neo-Marxism comes in, because it did the same thing. The Neo-Marxists realized that socialism and communism are Not inevitable (like the Vulgar Marxists did) and that it has to be forced on the people. They asked "How do we do that without violence then?" And then Boom! Postmodernism came about.

@straightfacts5352

5 ай бұрын

Someone gets it, and after a year of it being up still no replies til now. There's no need to guess why.

@fmellish71

3 ай бұрын

Deconstructionalism comes from Derrida and he was neither Marxist or political. He was primarily a philosopher of ethics. Lindsay and Pluckrose have been cited for over-generalizing postmodern thinkers and misinterpreting their views.

@arshiaarjomandi6279

2 ай бұрын

Critical theory did not emerge from a merger of communist thought with postmodernism. I would encourage you to look into the history and developement of critical theory

I agree that Peterson misses the sophistication of Post modernism. The problem is, most people would. Some philosophies are too complex for the widespread public to properly utilize. Like how modern-day Marxists say, "The Soviet Union and Maoist China simply didn't understand Marx." This is probably true, but therein lies the problem. The broader culture will always adopt the inarticulate version of whatever actual philosophy is prevalent. So Marxism ends up being understood as "The rich are evil, and we oppressed workers have the moral right to overthrow them." And Post modernism ends up meaning, "Morality is entirely relative and no narrative is any more valuable than another, so I might as well live like a nihilist." You can hamper on all day about how it's truly much more sophisticated than that, but does it really matter if that's how the broader culture, who aren't intellectuals, ends up practicing it?

@freddiekarlbom

5 жыл бұрын

Those were my thoughts too. I can't say whether Petersons representation of post-modern philosophers are accurate or not, but his critique overall are quite accurate to how those who claim to be the modern descendants of those thinkers keep representing them, and claims to follow their ideas when they try to motivate concrete policies.

@TeslaTritone

5 жыл бұрын

I would say that the nihilism is more of a result of a modern isolation and alienation of youths than post-modernist influence. And the narratives that people reach to and create (Free Market Capitalism, Ethnostates, Democratic Socialism) are super modernist. The only thinker I've seen mentioned as influential in movements and ideology is Foucault, and only in the context of police militarisation and the surveillance state.

@youtubeyoutube6341

5 жыл бұрын

So, what you are saying is that some ideas are complicated. So complicated that the people who try to apply them without knowing what they mean, and end up practicing a bastardised version these ideas. I agree, that happens across the board in all fields of knowledge. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing as the saying goes. But Jordan is a part of that problem. He is not saying that the people who poorly interpret post modernism or even Marxism are the problem. He is saying that the these two ideologies are the problem, when the only thing he grasps is a simplified version of these concepts rather than the concepts themselves. He does it to sound cleverer than he is. To give an intelectual sounding basis to his refusal of complexity and a hankering for an unspecific concept of some golden age of western values, whatever that may be.

@soacker25

5 жыл бұрын

Well said!!!!!

@TheNade

5 жыл бұрын

there is no sophistication in post modernism, thats the issue, its painfully simple minded and lacks anything resembling meaningful thought. Its destructive, if you had the capacity to think thought post modernism you would see how ignorant it is.

Peterson is among my favorite dads. His stuff on psychology and self-understanding is both immensely comprehensive and palatable. But politically, he's infuriatingly bumbling. He'll be given a question, steer things to "postmodernism", then from there start talking in circles about the same three or four issues in shallow, meaningless tangents. What gets me is that he could come up with some great answers if he used his professional knowledge and factor analysis skills, and he's even come close at times, but god would he rather bash commies.

@mikeappleget482

4 жыл бұрын

Brandon Willey On purpose. I think he found a highly profitable niche audience and panders to them every chance he gets. I say this because it’s clear (after watching many hours of interviews) that he “knows his audience” and acts accordingly. When he’s on podcasts with an intellectual and/or liberal fan base he dials back the bullsh*t big time. He could be asked the same question on H3H3 and some alt-light podcast and you’d get 2 completely different answers. One would be filled with ambiguously antisemitic buzzwords and the other he would portray himself as a skeptic of the status quo depending on which audience he wants to sell a book to. I’ve read his 12 Rules book and thought it was really good but I can’t help but notice how he blatantly panders to audiences.

@Djanck000

4 жыл бұрын

And his 12 rules book is, simply put, christian propaganda in disguise.

@liscer6812

4 жыл бұрын

His psycological stuff is also very bad...

@bigboy2217

4 жыл бұрын

Mike Appleget this is factually wrong. You can find videos from a decade before Peterson was famous espousing identical views to today. In fact he has a channel with a library of such content. Look I can understand people that don’t like everything he has to say. I often disagree with people who don’t like the guy, but if you disagree with his views I’ve got no qualms with you. But some of the claims that he’s a grifter are outright fallacious. So I ask, are YOU intentionally or unintentionally this stupid?

@liscer6812

4 жыл бұрын

@@bigboy2217 He has absolutetly no understanding of Philosophie. None. He talks like he does, but he doesn't. Taking about phisolophie is just a way to spread lies and conspiracy theories (cultural marxism and so on). Apart from that, I don't know much about psycology, but I think that one of the first rules is "don't go and write about one of your patients telling everybody how stupid they are.".

The marxist class conflict isn't even about the rich vs the poor but the ones who own the means of production and the ones who don't.

When JBP claims that post modernists manipulated marxism in the 70s, you cannot object that Foucault & cy wrote marxist books in the 60s. By denying that the opposition of the rich and the poor is the essence of marxism, your stop making any sense. By equating oppressed vs oppressors to all possible group rivalries, you enter absurdity. Sure JBP uses some shortcuts, but just as sure, you strengthen his case: post modernism is marxism in disguise, the poor become the victims, the rich become the oppressors. And as every person belongs to multiple groups, it is essential to distinguish groups and the multiplication of oppositions follows. That is how youngsters who might have been educated to be colorblind, become fanatics and only see race, or gender, or whatever, even before their brains are fully developed.

@DieGo-ww2fx

7 ай бұрын

marxism is not the opposition of the ''poor'' against the ''rich''.

@erandeser5830

7 ай бұрын

@@DieGo-ww2fx 😂😂😂

@DieGo-ww2fx

7 ай бұрын

@@erandeser5830 yeah laugh, laugh as much as you want.

@mek101whatif7

Ай бұрын

Marxism isn't about rich vs poor, it's about how society is shaped by production, and the current struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeois. Ever wondered why no self proclamed marxist organization ever used "poor" and "rich" as paradigms for analisys?

@erandeser5830

Ай бұрын

@@mek101whatif7 I think for capitalists vs exploited it is a good proxy. But still you may have a point. The whores on Only Fans are exploited, obviously, but make a lot of money. 😀😀😀

*PURE LOBSTER IDEOLOGY*

@kayleegregory770

5 жыл бұрын

This guy

@HxH2011DRA

5 жыл бұрын

Kaylee Gregory Me~

@chereshan906

5 жыл бұрын

hehe it is funny because he has illustrated his statement about why hierarchies aren't essentially bad by simple example in his simplified self-help book.

@akmonra

5 жыл бұрын

Kathy Newman, is that you?

@equalitystateofmind5412

5 жыл бұрын

Deepak Chopra would be proud: kzread.info/dash/bejne/o3iH2cyShNXZcps.html

So Peterson tries to put postmodern philosophers in rigid boxes - but this rigid categorisation eventually fails? I think postmodern philosophy might help him understand this problem...

@MaverickGamingLLC

6 жыл бұрын

Celestina You've just highlighted the key flaw of post-modern thinking. It is a direct March toward the elimination of meaning (and therefore the ability to communicate). It cannot be criticized only because it claims no ground in the first place. In other words, it's anti-human.

@Repetoire

6 жыл бұрын

Haha Chris you failed to prove your own point. If post-modernism is but a march toward elimination of meaning, it is not yet elimination of meaning, therefore, according to your own words, post modernism is somewhere between absolute truth and no meaning, which is exactly what it asserts. You played yourself.

@MaverickGamingLLC

6 жыл бұрын

Ian Farris negative, because PM is unable to define where it should stop, much like an alcoholic trying to find that sweet spot of "just enough"

@Repetoire

6 жыл бұрын

Sorry Chris but that’s simply wrong, post modernism merely asserts that it is a fact that the places we do stop are arbitrary, and then we should evaluate and question our stopping points. Not that nothing has meaning. You’re straw manning PM and that’s a fallacy.

@MaverickGamingLLC

6 жыл бұрын

Ian Farris It's not a straw man, it's an assertion that PM'S positions are self contradictory and therefore cannot be taken seriously. For instance, if a stopping point is arbitrary then by definition the reason for stopping there cannot be evaluated. That's what "arbitrary" means. Hence, PM destroys meaning. Every time.

In the quote you provided Derrida didn’t specify whether or not he believes the center function is dysfunctional or exclusionary, he just said that he believes a center function is necessary. That they believe that there are overarching narratives but what did they think of those narratives and did they believe in objective truths? Have you throughly read their books and writings? If they believe that there is no such thing as an objective truth and that you can only subjectively interpret things, then they are also in alignment with poststructuralism. It’s similar to critical theories and social justice because it doesn’t matter to them what someone means by what they say it only matters to them how they interpret it, which means if you wear a white sock you must be a white supremacist and your reasoning to them doesn’t matter at all if they believe it’s true then it’s true regardless of how idiotic it is, essentially just a manipulative tactic to gain unequal opportunity in society. If your not familiar with critical theory then that would explain why it’s difficult for you to understand where Jordan Peterson is coming from because critical theory, critical race theory, and social justice, undoubtedly has characteristics of Marxism, or simply just an excessive belief of being victim in society if you don’t want to call it Marxist. They use poststructuralist belief in no such thing as an objective interpretation, to intentionally misinterpret what a person is saying to achieve a dominant and unequal position (I was less likely to be admitted into university because I’m white) The criticism of ideology in itself is very silly because it is through ideas that we create our society. Even this video was a creation of ideology, of ideas. You made a claim about jordan Peterson supported by your perceived evidence, that’s an ideology. There’s nothing wrong with ideology. I wish the quotes you provided would have been more specific as to proving Jordan Peterson wrong because I would be far more inclined to believe your claims. And I will if your willing to provide more substantial evidence.

I have to ask about your comment on cultural marxism. What do you think about Herbert Marcuse, Antonio Gramsci and the concept of demoralization? Perhaps cultural marxism is a low resolution image of what they posit, but from what I understood reading the essay on liberation and some of the prison notebooks, the confluence of Gramsci's and Marcuse's influence alongside Paulo Freire's pedagogy look eerily similar to what is encapsulated in the term's definition.

It's funny how peterson himself does the "so you're saying that..." thing on the postmodernists.

@13tuyuti

4 жыл бұрын

@@csb8447 it's a goog thing if it's done correctly. Like if you are making an honest effort to understand what the other is saying. Cathy Newman didn't do that when she interviewed Jordan and she received a ton of justified criticism for it. Here we se Jordan doing the same thing, with the difference that the people whose points of view he is deliberately representing aren't in the room to correct him.

@Xzsxztreiii

4 жыл бұрын

13tuyuti wrong, if the person explaining the theories has an understanding of said philosopher’s theory; they should be able to correct Jordan if his understanding is incorrect. But this simply doesn’t happen. To say Jordan doesnt have an understanding of postmodernism is silly. He doesn’t speak on anything he doesn’t understand. I’d love to see a debate between this guy and JP though, I predict Jordan on top. He doesn’t usually lose if you haven’t noticed.

@13tuyuti

4 жыл бұрын

@@Xzsxztreiii one thing is that Peterson is never specific about which post modern philosopher said what. Another thing is that the guy who made this video does address what few points Peterson actually made.

@deadNightwatchman

Жыл бұрын

@@Xzsxztreiii 😂 He constantly speaks on things he doesn't understand.

His analysis of quantum mechanics basically being a universal truth is not something anyone studying quantum mechanics would assume. This is why string theory popped up because it's incomplete. To assume it's a universal truth would be making a lot of leaps of faith. Quantum mechanics works in most imaginable situations but is unlikely a universal truth.

@galaxy-star-me

3 жыл бұрын

String theory is just a pure mathematical game and still can't come to the phenomenology level !!

@incognito-px3dz

Жыл бұрын

@edgar allan hoe that joke doesnt make any sense. mathematicians know what a convergent series is

@Namagi

Жыл бұрын

@edgar allan hoe Feels like a very poor joke from somebody that does not understand mathematics. I doubt there are many mathematicians that do not know about the geometric series.

@Baddaby

8 ай бұрын

While I agree with everything else, string theory is just pseudo-science

I'm glad you picked up on Kermit the frog in your thumbnail. I thought I was the only one. Good critique. Thank you.

maybe the woke-transgender-post-modern-neo-marxism was the friends we made along the way

I bet it would be a surprise to Peterson to learn that Marxists referred to Foucault as the “young conservative.”

@Tahycoon

2 жыл бұрын

They would of course because the original postmodernism is different from the modern postmodernism, they are two different versions, one is theoretical and the other is practical, Peterson disagrees with the second and agrees on the first, as well as historians and postmodernists themselves (like Bell Hooks who is postmodernist and she calls the modern postmodernism "radical postmodernism" and she thinks it is to their credit). Peterson has clips explicitly agreeing with the theory, but not with the methods (today's evolved theory). It is not a surprise to know that Derrida, Lyotard, and Foucault explicitly had opposing ideas to the afterward new postmodernism who is more toward the left-wing than the theory itself. I want to give an example of this. Remember how the evolutionary theory was completely a different theory than what it grew later and it became more than simply what its original founding fathers stated. Well, I like to give this example because it is so relevant to the "French, philosophical, original postmodernism" to the new postmodernism, they are completely different and should not even be related at all.

@lohollywood1f428

2 жыл бұрын

@@Tahycoon In what ways has original postmodernism changed into radical postmodernism?

@mikeno8192

Жыл бұрын

The Jew: Probably not. The complimentary components of Foucaults theory (a Marxist himself) to Marxism was the themes around oppressor vs oppressed. If you’re going to talk about gays and women being oppressed through discourse, instead of economic oppression of the working class, then actual orthodox Marxists who remained orthodox Marxist’s are going to call this divergent view conservative - as it did and does serve corporate interests - whereas economic focused Marxism does not. (Even though corporations sponsored the Bolsheviks - they too were divergent). Both - or all opposed the structure of society. Just one did in a rational sense the other in an irrational sense

@d3th2m3rikkka

Жыл бұрын

@@mikeno8192 the parts of the video starting at 4:11 completely debunks your bullshit

@Shrek_es_mi_pastor

Жыл бұрын

@@Tahycoon "the *original* postmodernism is different from the *modern* postmodernism" POST-POST-MODERNISM??????

Not only do Marxists have strong opposition to postmodernism, they were the first to criticize postmodernism generally, and holy shit that Peterson lecture is bad. It's self-contradictory and borderline slanderous toward the philosophers he talk about. That you point out Peterson's worldview is "pure ideology" (*sniffs*) is interesting, because Peterson himself talks about ideology, even using the word, as something negative that stifles the individual he values so much, which is a glorious lack of self-awareness on his part.

@gorequillnachovidal

6 жыл бұрын

post modernism is born out of marxism you dumb shit

@holyworrier

6 жыл бұрын

GoreQuill NachoVidal - Well! There you have it. Never mind.

@johnnyblaze9158

6 жыл бұрын

GoreQuill NachoVidal doesn’t appear to be.

@nathandrake5544

6 жыл бұрын

Anarchism was born out of conservatism. Does that make antifa conservatives?

@janosmarothy5409

6 жыл бұрын

Could you explain that one? Is this because of Proudhon's own shittiness about almost everything or did you mean something else?

Was interested by derrida quote, thanks for the citation

Thank you for the great video. I haven't seen many reasonable disagreements on Jordan Peterson that are intellectually supported. Recently, I've come across some misinterpretations of Nietzsche as well. I should also mention that Peterson seemed most coherent in his lectures rather than in his political stance. I would even say that after his lectures, starting the point where he got so political, his main problem is the extremists that try to attack him intellectually and it looks to me that he only wants to defend himself rather than solve a problem, which is what matters. Regarding the topic at hand, Peterson makes a strong case that a theory is not only what is said, but it also encompasses its consequences and how it is acted upon. For instance, Marxism is not only defined by what Marx or "Marxists" claim to be true but also by the real-world outcomes they generate. He points out the negative consequences of postmodernism in our time: the sense of aimlessness in our era, the idea that reality is not as fundamental as we once believed, and the resulting implications of this kind of thinking. All of these aspects are a part of the postmodernism theory, just as much as the theory itself, because you cannot separate the consequences of a theory from its initial assumptions. Is war not a part of Christianity simply because it says, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God"? This question doesn't negate the fact that Christianity is still responsible for providing an answer to this issue.

@bubstacrini8851

6 ай бұрын

😂post modernism is an observational description , and cannot be compared to a theory designed to ferment revolution . Peterson is known to collect Soviet era art, and display it in his home next to Aboriginal art...that is post modernist

As an academic, Peterson should know -- maybe he does and purposefully portraits as the opposite -- that 1) Marxism is very alive in academia, not only orthodox but those influenced by Critical Theory (with a lot of criticism of the Soviet Union, for christ sake) and 2) the relationship between them and postmodernists is very harsh, especially on the topic of identity politics with debates such as race x class or gender x class and so on. To call a Marxist a postmodernist and the other way around is a huge mistake. Also, I mainly work with the philosophy of Sartre. Peterson really misrepresented Sartre in the video. Yes, Sartre was very frustrated with stalinism after Stalin's death and Khrushchev accusations, but that doesn't mean he abandoned Marxism at all. He actually started supporting maoism and by the time of May, 1968 he was on the streets distributing maoist newspapers. He died a marxist.

@mikeno8192

Жыл бұрын

Structuralism and post structuralism or post modernism retain consistent themes, both are influenced by early Marxism - one aspect simply continues it and refined it, the other rebrands itself completely. Of course they’re at heads with each other. But whilst Orthodox Marxism remains - post-modernism is what dominates and is supported by corporations and the media. You can be pro gay, anti white, secular and anti the west and still be a big supporter of corporations. A bit like how Bolsheviks were supported by corporations - because it served them, whereas Mensheviks, other types of Marxism don’t do this as much - for corporate interests. They might be nuts potentially too, but fixating on economic oppression rather than liberating gays and non conformist women from the male gaze is less likely to receive corporate backing, and easier for the latter to exist without being quashed

@HunterStiles651

Жыл бұрын

@@mikeno8192 What's this? Someone talking sense in my leftist comment section? Begone, knave!

@mianfeng4406

Жыл бұрын

They are many on Left who profess Marx but are influenced by Foucault, Dedera or even Horkheimer. They are all over the place. That is contradictory, but so are many people.

@j.v.sutter2087

Жыл бұрын

mais um brazalairo

@jordangill2710

Жыл бұрын

Amazing how anyone can think a philosopher who supported the greatest genocidal maniac of all time was a good philosopher.

Coming at this from a sociological perspective I find it interesting how the sociological theory of postmodernism is linked to its philosophical roots and also how its differs

I spent a lot of time reading and listening to Peterson's arguments and although I think there's definitely something valuable in his work, I reached the same conclusion just by observing his behaviour in the media as you did in this analysis - he is someone who operates from a very specific ideological frame even though he has built his entire public image as a crusader against this very concept. His critiques of political activism apply perfectly to his own actions and he engages in his own sleigh of hand to make his radical simplifications work. His appeal and popularity is based around the confidence, certainty and apparent success that he embodies, but he would do well to challenge his own beliefs and apply his critiques to himself as a thinker and political activist, and to his allies, in the same way he does to those whom he disagrees with. This to me seems like the metaphorical cave he fears to enter, the one which holds the treasure he needs to find.

@mikeyt7880

Жыл бұрын

Holy shit you don’t know him at all, he frequently does this and admits when he is wrong or changes his mind. He’s very open to everything and critical of himself. You have the wrong idea about him

@Zayywavvy

Жыл бұрын

@@mikeyt7880 u defending daddy Peterson ? 🥺

@Noba46688

Жыл бұрын

@@mikeyt7880 no he fucking isn’t lmfao. He’s just generic far right grifter number 10 trillion. Jordan Peterson is a piece of shit who alternates between being a crypto-fascist and a waffling grifter whose banal, useless advice is somehow seen as clever, presumably due to his (irrelevant) qualifications in psychology, and tendency to use formal language, often to such an extent that he just waffles on and on. As for his lectures, he has referred to the 3rd reich as the 4th - a common neo nazi reference to the continuation of the original nazism which ended in 1945 - , asking “why would you assume hitler wanted to win?”, acting as if Jewish people and other “undesirables” weren’t forced to work, etc. He has also claimed that nazi Germany was somehow an atheistic state, even though atheists were killed for not believing in any deity or deities. So no, his lectures aren’t any better. He also thinks that Jews are over represented in the media - a common (erroneous) nazi conspiracy - and this is why they perform better in IQ tests, even though 1. IQ is garbage as a measure and 2. It was created to justify racism, by racists. He has praised Milo Yiannopoulos (even after his pro-pedophilia comments came out, though even before then, he was still far-right PoS, so there aren’t any excuses either way), appeared on Stefan Molyneux’s show - a known far right deplorable piece of shit, race scientist, etc. who has been banned from all mainstream platforms due to the aforementioned - AND has agreed with him on certain matters such as IQ differences between the races - a favourite talking point of the far-right to justify things like racial segregation. He has also been on Lauren Southern’s show, likewise a far right POS who, for example, attempted to stop refugee ships from entering Europe. He has appeared on Ben Shapiro and Stephen Crowder’s shows multiple times, both of which having had Gavin McInnes - leader of the far-right paramilitary group The Proud Boys - on their shows. He also promotes the far-right, extremely antisemitic “cultural Marxism” conspiracy theory on numerous occasions, and believes that women wear makeup purely for sexual-purposes - an entirely false statement - and as such, they should not complain if they are sexually harassed while wearing make up. The only “good” he is doing is promoting far-right and conservative ideas - everyone who disagrees with a conservative is a Marxist, certain college courses should be banned, women are manipulative beings whose only purpose is to engage in sexual acts and to be a maid, etc. This is good for turning normies into misogynistic fascists, and nothing else. Even when he isn’t being a fascist piece of shit, his self-help advice is extremely banal grifting purely intended to make himself wealthier; and to radicalise more people because he often interpolated basic advice with conservative ideas and such. All of the evidence points to Peterson’s being on the far-right - this is simply how it is. I - and all of the others - who rightfully condemn him as a member of the far-right have looked at all of the evidence against him and have thus quite easily determined that he is, in fact, a member of the far-right. I will include some helpful links to relevant KZread videos which expand on my points. Link one: “The very true story of Jordan Peterson” - Thought Slime kzread.info/dash/bejne/a3Vmt6VqibTeqZc.html Link two: “Subverting the narrative I Holocaust denial and the lost cause myth” - Knowing Better kzread.info/dash/bejne/eW2qx8qCkqfRfrw.html

@eurika292

Жыл бұрын

Daddy chill….

@kcufhctib204

Жыл бұрын

@@eurika292 What the hell is even that...

JP is something of a hack. People who don't know anything think he's brilliant, while people who really know their stuff just roll their eyes at him.

"After a while of watching videos by him" the things you've seen

For some reason my sleepy brain is going "Derrida said trans rights"

@fruitylerlups530

3 жыл бұрын

Why do u people always make things about urselves?

@yonyosef

3 жыл бұрын

@@fruitylerlups530 ?

My problem with most of this stuff is that i don't know most of these big complex words. I think whenever using a big word for the first time, people should state its meaning just once. English is my third language, with respect to global audience, this is a bare minimum. If i have to search for meaning of words so often, i will lose all my enthusiasm.

Great dissection. Thank you.

Very well made video. His generalizations bother me-- foucault and derrida hated each other, Deleuze is wacky (i love him so much) and seems to be a classic style metaphysician at times, and all of them and the frankfurt school have produced critiques of “marxism”. I am also skeptical of marxism and how linked it actually is to “marx”.

@Cowicide

6 жыл бұрын

JP is the king of over-simplistic generalizations that tend to suit a right wing agenda. His drivel on race is rife with half-truths and blatant omissions that leads to the outright farces he promotes. Alt-right eats it up to promote white supremacist agendas. JP is a scumbag.

@matthewfrazier9254

6 жыл бұрын

Cowicide accidentally contributing to the most idiotic people on this platform... he’s not always bad but on “postmodern neo marxist cultural marxist” philosophy he’s so fucking bad it’s unbearable.

@shanearmstrong9861

6 жыл бұрын

Except JP hates the Alt-Right and has stated as much. If they eat up his ideas then they're fucking stupid, because he hates identitarian politics no matter who is playing it.

@jengleheimerschmitt7941

6 жыл бұрын

Matthew Frazier What if we called it Applied Postmodernism? His confusion between PoMo in general and FS are difficult to bear, but this bizzaro combination of the two is very real in it's own right. I was following it long before JBP arrived. He's also quite open that he respects some ideas from Lacan and Derrida. Ok, I'm assuming that if you're commenting here, you've watched JBP's "debate" with Nicolas Matte... Can you give me a better explanation of those lovely fellows than JBPs explanation? (If your alternate explanation includes Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, a time-travel machine, and a large bet, save it, I'm still looking into the possibility. But until it can be verified by my team, JBP's narrative remains my current working hypothesis.)

@matthewfrazier9254

6 жыл бұрын

Yyy Yyy Well, it seems very unfair to treat the people who are misused as if they are the people misusing the ideas. For example, racists like JBP, but it’s not fair to say he’s racist or his ideas suck because of that. See what I mean? Secondly, I think that it’s still not a good hypothesis. Do you want to go into it? I think pragmatism and pluralism coming out of american philosophy are actually more important here than any “postmodern” philosophy.

I identify as a lobster but I find this critique fair and well-based.

@Djoodibooti

6 жыл бұрын

Volvox down with the bourgeois carapaciens.

@abelewis9874

6 жыл бұрын

I don't find it fair or well-based. Dr. Peterson may make some trite statements in the short clips cut here, but he more than backs them up in other locations. Derrida himself stated "Deconstruction never had meaning or interest, at least in my eyes, than as a radicalization, that is to say, also within the tradition of a certain Marxism, in a certain spirit of Marxism." Peterson is also correct that during the 60's it was increasingly difficult to intellectually defend Marxism, regardless of whether or not the third most popular party in France was the communist party. Popularity among the ignorant does not reflect intellectual rigor. The fact that Marxists take advantage of the politics of envy, which post-modernists self admittedly continued only serves as an illustration of their ulterior motives. Criticizing Peterson by citing examples of oppression throughout history is incoherent. Derrida already confessed. It's not surprising that any criticism of post-modernism, which rejects any formal definition, is said to miss the mark. Post-modernism can never be what anyone says it is, since it rejects the existence of truth and any objective reality. The first smack of your head on concrete should convince anyone that objective reality and truth exist. The key premises of post-modern thought are falsified by our inescapable encounters with suffering. Post-modern thought is little more than a manipulative tool. Much of Dr. Peterson's criticisms are shared by Dr. Steven Hicks. Here is their discussion: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oa2utdStopnVeqg.html

@Wingo537

6 жыл бұрын

The lobster point can be used to justify any hierarchy regardless of how unjust. Including slavery.

@nanidachamman2645

6 жыл бұрын

Abe Lewis pomo does not reject truth and obj reality it just shows us that these things r subjective and can never be totally complete. No system of ideas can ever be formed witout using some unprovable axioms that must be accepted as truths without proofs.

@nanidachamman2645

6 жыл бұрын

Abe Lewis I think u r taking derrida out of context and being a complete opportunistic prick ,can u cite me which page and book so i can c it for myself(bet its spectres of marx)

thank you for your honest work bro