Ignatius of Loyola went to the same school as Calvin. He was the leader of the counter reformation. Ignatius thought started 12 step program of reforming the self.

It was great doing a mini collab with you! its good you did a video on john calvin, cause I couldn't fit all the theological minutae into my french wars of religion video :P

I find the contrasts fascinating, the centralized hierarchical denomination believes in free will, but the decentralized congregationalist denomination believes in predestination

@user-ys5qp4bq4s

Жыл бұрын

well there's john milton and the quakers.

@stluke4655

3 ай бұрын

Calvin wasn’t Congregationalist

Used to go to Geneva for work all the time. I loved touring the cathedral there, especially the museum of the old cathedral under the current one.

About the predestination, I have a Calvinist friend, and we had a hot debate. In his view, it's not like we don't have free will...it's just like, well, God knows it all, so he knows you are going to fail before you were born. As a Catholic, I have a different view, to me, God doesn't have the eyes of a "fortune teller". The fortune teller has a contradiction: when he delivers the information to the past and changes the future, he was wrong about the future, and if the future is inevitable, his information is useless. It is because the fortune teller has one of many possible futures reveled to him. The Eye of God sees all possibilities, so God sees you in Hell and in Heaven at same time, because all is true, but you have to seek Him to make your journey right. You can't save yourself without God, but also, you must act.

@john3_14-17

2 жыл бұрын

What about prophecy in the Bible then? That doesn’t describe an open-ended ‘possible future’, but a future that will come. This is since Christ & the Apostles pointed to the prophecies about our Lord, everything from details of his life to the salvation that he would freely give, ‘by his stripes you were healed’ (1 Peter 2:24, Isaiah 53:5). So how could it be the case that a prophecy in the Old Testament was true and not true at the same time?

@stluke4655

3 ай бұрын

1. Your friend has a wrong view of predestination he’s literally Arminian 2. The idea God doesn’t know THE outcome is heretical. But I’d expect that from a catholic

@NotAGoodUsername360

2 ай бұрын

​​​@@stluke4655 It’s not heretical because Jesus explicitly stated that neither He nor the Holy Spirit knew the future with enough accuracy to pinpoint the day or the hour of the Second Coming, but the Father does. One of the key distinctions between the persons of the Holy Trinity. That means that, from within the Universe, the future is not static, and true omniscience is only possible from outside the Universe. This is why God highly values redemption and the saving of lost souls, which Jesus emphasized more than any other parable. Because externally, God has already seen and acknowledged the possibility of a negative outcome that is as real as you or me. This is not a theological question but philosophical one, limited by our human perspective of time. The analogy might be trying to find "South" when you are standing on the North Pole- every direction is simultaneously correct at once simply because of your perspective.

The new set is very, assertive

Thank you for this video! It was informative and explained some differences in a way that no one else has. Be blessed, today and always! =)

"The complaints of Calvinists only make me stronger." * laughs in Eastern Orthodox *

@MrJMB122

3 жыл бұрын

One of my really good friends in my unit grew up a very reformed Calvinist household and he is converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. It brings me joy.

@mongooseinatardis

3 жыл бұрын

raised in calvinism and immediately smashed the subscribe button after hearing this.

@GhostGamer123Ghost

3 жыл бұрын

Hello to my orthodox brothers from the Catholic church! You guys are metal

@Dilley_G45

2 жыл бұрын

As there is no decent Lutheran or even non-Lutheran decent churxhbinnthis country I am thinking of attending an orthodox church in the future. I know they welcome visitors even outside their ethnical group. Three things: 1 - I dont speak any language they use 2 - which orthodox church? While small we actually have quite a few Orthodox churches 3 - the bible advises against prayers to Mary and saints and the Bible says mandatory fasting should not be a rule. However I would just accept these as better than nanyyhing else here and I wouldn't do it actively. What gets me is that orthodox seem to be the only ones to understand that it is important to not suck up to the world but stick to the traditional faith instead of making church relevant to a fallen world. Orthodox Churches have survived so much hardship and persecution...but I think just because they never compromise like most western churches did and do. In the end I will join a church even if I won't be understanding the sermon as long as I know it's about God. I will miss traditional hymns in a service but I will get tired of being a freelancer as I have been for a few years now

@titisuteu

2 жыл бұрын

@@Dilley_G45 The bible says nothing about prayers to Mary or saints. And in old English the word pray was synonymous with ask. So these prayers are to ask Saints to pray to God because like James says in his Epistle, chapter 5 verse 16 great power is in the prayer of the righteous men. And Saints are not dead, because God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and he is a God of the living not a God of the dead. That was said by Jesus Himself.

This video is a good lead-in to the Usefulcharts video on the playlist in that they two videos seem to go with each other well! 😉 Anyway, I especially enjoy learning about French history. ⚜

Lol. loved this but knew you couldnt do it unbiased. awsome video.

Calvin & the Chipmonks

Im here because of atun shei. Great channel

As a Lutheran-turned-Catholic, I really liked your "hot take" on Calvinist theology.

@htoodoh5770

3 жыл бұрын

Why you convert Catholic?

@fantasia55

7 ай бұрын

​@@htoodoh5770because early Christianity was very Catholic

15min of "catholics are right". And I do agree.

Good video but why is everything on the screen shaking? Really bad visual experience

To quote my own video/school project: My archenemy John Calvin

I liked the video, but why was everything so shakey? It was hard to look at at times.

I love the title what an apt description on Calvin

All informed Christians believe in "some sort" of predestination, and "some sort" of election, after all these terms are used and taught numerous times in the New Testament. The only differences are how these work, and this is where careful exegesis of the text (hopefully), coupled with logic, comes in.

ooh John's dad used to barrels nice

Are you part of any specific Synod?

My stepfather is distantly related to Richard Nixon. I was sorta raised Catholic, but the only famous person I am said to be related to is John Knox.

It’s amazing seeing this type of video come from a Catholic and not be incredibly biased.

@CasualHistorian

Жыл бұрын

I'm a Lutheran

@pleaseenteraname1103

Жыл бұрын

@@CasualHistorian oh and your political compass test video I thought you were catholic, i’m probably just not remembering it well.

well, no one could honestly blame you. Calvin is just about up there with Martin Luther regardless of modern day impact.

@Dilley_G45

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry but Luther is not like Calvin. Luther was about the Bible and the bible alone...Calvin is about his own false doctrine.

Calvin had no training in theology ... and it shows.

The tiltle is a little bit anachronistic, but the content is very good

#justice4Servetus

@SergeantSquared

3 жыл бұрын

also, predestination means more than that. Simply due to a third option being a belief that God himself gives one the faith to believe and the inclination to confess that Jesus is the Lord publically; versus, predestination as Hod chose all those whome he will save, a fundamental that deadens the second part of my preceding argument. Thus you divide Calvin from Rome but not Michael Servetus. You did mention some other groups and I appreciate that. From a logical point of view the calvinist argument regarding where the unelect go, the dichotomy seems false to me. I never understood how far short of actual logic calvin falls. This is evidence that logic is not patriarchal..

@SergeantSquared

3 жыл бұрын

@@michael.1517 *why comment?*

Calvin was stating that those who usurp tyrannical kings are not justified in their nefarious perfidy, but nonetheless they are God's means and God is justified in establishing them for God's own purposes. Calvin's actionable point was that it's not the Church's place to oppose the usurpers, just as it was not the Church's place to oppose the tyrannical king. What he said cannot be thought to justify rebellions or revolutions or usurpations, but rather it speaks to not usurping the usurpers because usurpation is not permissible. To think that Calvin may have been condoning usurpations is to absolutely ignore the words "nefarious perfidy"; I suspect the inclination, to read his words in such a way, begins with a lack of comprehension of the Reformed Doctrine Of Compatibilism which acknowledges that full human free will is perfectly compatible with God's full meticulous predetermination. This doctrine, including what you call Double Predestination, is merely defined by God's attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, and immutability, such that there is nothing in the definition which is not Biblically insisted. Those who don't comprehend the abstract principles involved, assert their own logic against the doctrine, and thereby add characteristics to the doctrine which are not present in the Scriptures; these added characteristics form a strawman which one can then easily say is not Biblical but is instead logical. It is not Calvin who asserts logic against the Scriptures, but instead the one who builds the strawman is doing so due to projecting his own logic into the doctrine and imaging the logic must have been there to begin with. Acknowledging the fullness of God's sovereignty also acknowledges the fullness of God's trustworthiness. Therefore, this is a matter which delves deep into the heart of God, which access we have only in Christ Jesus The Lord Who Saves. So, it is a very deep and beautiful topic worthy of many hours of worshipful discussion. Therefore, I could go on forever, but I'll stop now, and in the Everance To Come I'll go on forever thanks to the will of God in Lord Jesus Christ who is blessed forever and ever amen.

Watched all of it 14:32

"The complaints of Calvinists only make me stronger." Ha! Love it! Question - I believe Luther had a more conservative approach to government and believed kingdoms were instituted by God, the whole Divine Right of Kings doctrine. He wanted subjects to petition their kings and magistrates instead of overthrowing them and denounced the peasants in the Peasant Wars in 1524-25. (I might be wrong on the details but I'm not a historian, so bear with me.) What do you think Luther's opinion would be on the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution? Do you think he'd agree or disagree with the idea that citizens can overthrow the US government and make a new one?

@truth7416

7 ай бұрын

I suppose Luther just got things wrong also? Hitler followed Luther's teaching to the letter. Luther inspired Hitler on how to handle Jews. “Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand… If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Let everyone see how he does his. I am excused.” (About the Jews and Their Lies,’ quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290.) “ If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413.) “The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”(Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502.) Luther was a Calvinist before Calvin. Luther teaches: “…with regard to God, and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, (man) has no ‘free-will’, but is a captive, prisoner and bond slave, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan.” (From the essay, ‘Bondage of the Will,’ ‘Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings, ed. by Dillenberger, Anchor Books, 1962 p. 190.) “…we do everything of necessity and nothing by ‘free-will’; for the power of ‘free-will’ is nil…” (Ibid., p. 188.) “Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate.” (‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq., quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, pp. 266-267.) “His (Judas) will was the work of God; God by His almighty power moved his will as He does all that is in this world.” (De servo Arbitrio, against man’s free will.) That is why I go after Cults like this because they are hindering souls looking for God. They cripple those who are true baby Christians. They slander the work of the cross and refuse to come into salvation themselves. TRUTH IN LOVE JESUS John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. To anyone reading this, go to these men and you will find the real truth! This site promotes only the Calvinist heresy. Mike Winger David Pawson Dave Hunt what love is this Soteriology 101 Dr Flowers They are trustworthy in their teaching. The most dangerous false teachers today in order are. John MacArthur John Piper R.C.Sproul Paul Washer James White Voddie Baucham Steven Lawson Remember this! To associate with heretics is to endorse heresy. You would be guilty by association.

ok... just because of the "predestination" concept, if I didn't remain atheist, I would go back to catholicism... "predestination" basically mean you're not accountable for your acts... all while claiming the leaders must be accountable for their acts to the peoples they govern... talk about "do as I say not as I do"

@str.77

3 жыл бұрын

@Joost FF Your atheistic explanation is indeed that, a statement of ideology (thought not necessarily the only atheist position). But you are right in so far as it is similar to Calvin's ideology. And it is equally harmful to the mindset of people who fall for it. And then for society at large.

@goyonman9655

3 жыл бұрын

This is why Arminius opposed Calvin

If only Calvin could play some good CRPGs, maybe then he would be able to conceptually reconcile the free will with predestination a bit. ;D On a more serious note, I found the part about the influence of Calvinist theology on political thought to be particularly interesting. Although, I wanted to point out that the concept of a right to rebellion against the royal authority acting unjustly and (more importantly) unlawfully was already present in tradition and even law across Europe - from England (Magna Carta) to Hungary and Poland. I'm not negating that Calvinist ideas played a role in strengthening this notion.

As a Catholic, I noticed you missed that works outside of a state of grace do not directly help for the salvation of souls. All works must be offered to Christ from a person within a state of grace in order to promote Chrisitan virtue. Example: said secular billionaire donates to poor orphan children in 3rd world country vs repentant Christian working the breadline at local soup kitchen. I think that drives home the point the Catholic Church has made. Both are good deeds, but only one is a true offering of the heart directly to Christ for others.

Smoke does not "justify" the fire, - and fruit does not qualify the seed; but works are the fruit of faith and smoke can be traced to the fire.

The theology discussion here was a little better than a lot of historians who don’t have a dog the theological fights but there are very important distinctions to make. The end of the free will spectrum is actually a heresy that no Christian believes in: that is Pelagianism which means that someone can attain salvation without Christ by their will. The Reformation position is that justification (relation to God) is attained by faith and that salvation is by grace. So salvation can involve works but it’s about the Holy Spirit in you doing the works instead of you. Also it’s a point of contention (or at least historically was) whether Calvin actually believed in “double predestination” or not. One of the complaints of many Puritians is that this was a doctrine that the Church of England should make explicit because they say it was held by him but once again, not everyone was convinced. This is certainly the doctrine of the Calvinists though.

@TheOneCalledSloth

3 жыл бұрын

Pelagius is superior to Augustine in every way.

@pcarr1382

3 жыл бұрын

TheOneCalledSloth Lol good luck with that I guess.

@plumber1874

2 ай бұрын

​@@pcarr1382Pelagius wasn't even a pelagian beliefs were attributed to him that he never held

In Quebec where I'm from... and which is supposedly Catholic... all our swear words refer to communion. Odd in'it?

@theninjainblack1237

3 жыл бұрын

Well communion is the most sacred part of Mass, and Catholics believe it is the full body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ and therefore God. It makes sense for swear words to be referring to communion.

@jfjoubertquebec

7 ай бұрын

@@theninjainblack1237 Yes, I don't and ddn't express myself very well sometimes. You are quite correct and it's more than that. Protestants... Calvinists especially, opposed the Mass. Since these Calvinists were forced to become catholic and take part in the Mass, them referring to this was unauthorized. Forbidden to mention this topic and so, these words became "unmentionable." Today, in Quebec, this part of our history is both unimaginable and not discussed. I hope one day we will come to our senses and recognize our protestant origins.

What a libel for such a holy man!

@plumber1874

2 ай бұрын

Ask Servetus

With a passion I hate the use of the word LIMITED as a stand-in for SMALL or LOW. Everything in this world is limited, in case you hadn't noticed.

King Charles I or king Francis I?

No wonder .but he also was a gnostic

Calvin: you know it's okay for aristocracy to rebell. Thomas Münzer: hold my beer and gimme that rainbow flag.

Casual Historian, I'm hoping you can provide historical proof Calvin had a hand in the judgements that murdered ones who disagreed with him. Btw, I remember learning in music history that Calvin outlawed not only musical concerts but instruments themselves. It is said you could not find a single instrument in the canton of Geneva a hundred years after Calvin. In Watch history we learn that Calvin outlawed jewelry, as well. This instantly put a large part of the population out of business. Fortunately, they discovered watches to be an exception and were able to switch to the industry Switzerland became most known for.

Your discussion of the Salvation spectrum doe snot acknowledge Universal Salvation, the position of Gregory of Nyssa, Gerrard Winstanley and George MacDonald.

@CasualHistorian

3 жыл бұрын

It would have been a little more accurate to call it a Predestination spectrum.

@Kuudere-Kun

3 жыл бұрын

@@CasualHistorian My view of Universal Salvation still respects Human Free Will. We may not all have the same fate, but no one is going to burn in Hell forever or be Annihilated.

@Fiscacondaniel

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kuudere-Kun not even Hitler?

@Kuudere-Kun

3 жыл бұрын

@@Fiscacondaniel Why would there be any need for "Justice" agaisnt Hitler when all his Victims will Risen and Healed? God's punishments are for Correction and his Fire is for Purging and Purification.

@Fiscacondaniel

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kuudere-Kun All I have to say is that your Eschatology is neither Orthodox nor Biblical. However as long as you have given your life to Jesus as your lord and saviour for the repentance of your sins then I can say no more than to be pleased to call you my brother in Christ!

Theology is a lot like sausages, betters in the eating than in the making.

templars

"A Calvinist party got out of hand Friday night as both Assassins and Templars, deep into their cups, began viciously attacking each other. The bloodletting finally abated when the face of Mary was said to appear on a bran muffin".

John Calvin ... father’s name?

@mathieuleader8601

3 жыл бұрын

Gerard

The church of the living GOD neither needs nor wants reform theology or calvinism. They both are bogus. The church of man is basically rotten to the core. Thank GOD for JESUS.

I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the real origins of John Calvin's theology. Calvin got most of his ideas from St. Augustine, the 4th-century bishop of Hippo in Africa. If you look at Augustine closely you find that he was a Manichean Gnostic for nearly ten years before he became a Christian. Compare Manicheanism and Calvinism and you find out that many of Calvin's ideas are very similar to each other. And "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck." And not only that, but virtually none of Augustine's theological ideas were even remotely like the theology of the earliest Church Fathers, until Augustine showed up and began agitating for them!

@fantasia55

7 ай бұрын

Calvin twisted Augustine to fit his new theology.

Calvinism in a nut shell!! Little Johnny, God has predestined the minority of people to be saved and go to heaven forever, and He has predestined the majority of people to be eternally damned and burn in the fires of hell. We have no idea, little Johnny, if God has predestined you to be forever damned or forever saved. We love you, little Johnny, but we accept the fact that God might not love you, and that He may have plans to send you to hell for your future sins. If you do find yourself one day burning in hell because He hasn’t elected to save you, just remember that we will always love you, even if God hates you. Take comfort knowing that we are not like God. We will be in heaven forever only because we were unconditionally chosen for salvation before we were born. That would be the only reason that we won’t be in hell with you if you find yourself there. It won’t be because of anything we did. So also take comfort in knowing that. It may not seem fair, but who are we to judge God? So again, if you find yourself in hell, remember that we will always love you as we forever worship the God who loved us but who hated you, the God who sent His Son to die for us but not for you. Please, we ask, don’t let it bother you-if you find yourself in hell-that we love the God who hated you and showed you no mercy. We must accept the fact that God is sovereign, and He does what He pleases. Will you teach that to your children or grandchildren? Watch their spiritual progress over the ensuing years. I suspect that your answer will be “never.” But why not? Its easy to call yourself a Calvinist but when it comes to saying it anyone can see the hideousness of it. TRUTH IN LOVE

@plumber1874

2 ай бұрын

You nailed it that's consistent Calvinism most Calvinist would disagree with your portrayal but most Calvinist live with cognitive dissonance they have special theological carve outs for themselves

I don't know if you're trying to be funny, but the animosity and dabs at calvin and his followers ("complaints of calvinists only makes me stronger") really put me off. When I clicked on the video link I hoped to learn something about the age of reformation, alas I cannot trust you to portray things honestly. Obviously total objectivity is impossible, but any historian should strive to keep their own biases at bay as much as they can. Also if you don't feel you can do justice to a topic then a pro-tip: ask someone who's more knowledgable than you to perform that part or at the very least just read the Wikipedia article. Nevertheless I'd like to thank you for being so upfront about your bias, and being respectfil enoguh not to lie and decieve me. The statement might seem cheeky and malicious, but I am honestly happy I wasn't being tricked.

@karenallen938

3 жыл бұрын

The channel is named "Casual Historian", meaning he's not a professional. Be blessed, today and always! =)

@fisstaschek

3 жыл бұрын

@@karenallen938 I understand "casual" as not going in depth, not as being dissmisive

@timurermolenko2013

3 жыл бұрын

@@fisstaschek are you a Calvinist?

@fisstaschek

3 жыл бұрын

​@@timurermolenko2013 1st - it's irrlevant even if I were 2nd - i'm eastern orthodox

@timurermolenko2013

3 жыл бұрын

@@fisstaschek 1st - it's relevant as long as another person asked (curiosity); 2nd - so maybe you're also squatting slav like myself :D

Ayatollah** Ayah=sign + Allah=God آية الله

from a sinner's perspective, if God already chose his people, then no need for evangelism. unless the church is established on evangelism, cuz the church follows Jesus' teachings.

Laughs in spanish inquisition

The British Royal Navy knew the Titanic would sink. They reviewed the passenger and crew logs and selected a certain number for rescue. When the Titanic hit the iceberg, the Royal Navy was there. They COULD have saved all on board. Instead they plucked the elect from the water, left the rest to perish in the icy water, and said "more glory for the king and crown this way".

I was doing some reading about Lutheran Predestination and Calvinist Predestination sometime ago, and they didn't seem all too different with their interpretation (at least to my understanding). As for me, I believe in Double Positive-Negative Predestination (as R.C. Sproul called it), in which God indeed chooses beforehand who He'll save, but will pass over those whom He won't save, allowing them to be justly punished for their sin. As to my understanding, this is single predestination in Lutheranism (I may be wrong lol). But I really enjoyed this video, it was very informative!

@str.77

3 жыл бұрын

But are they, under this system, punished for their sins or for not being chosen?

@christopherhardy8808

3 жыл бұрын

@@str.77 To me, it for their sins. And as to how I believe, they were left in those sins because they were not chosen, not because they were forced to be that way, but because they wanted to.

@str.77

3 жыл бұрын

@@christopherhardy8808 But weren't they then predestined to sin too. Also, it doesn't make sense to say they were damned for their sins when, under both Luther's and Calvin's logic, sins do not actually matter in regard to salvation (a totally unbiblical idea anyway).

@christopherhardy8808

3 жыл бұрын

@@str.77 I didn't know they disregarded sin. As to me, it's not that people are predestined to hell. Rather, all have damned themselves, and God predestined who He would save from this damnation. Those whom God doesn't choose He merely passes over, not causing them to sin.

@str.77

3 жыл бұрын

@@christopherhardy8808 In Calvin's system there is logically no "he damned himself" as that would reduce God's sovereign decree, the fetish of many heretics ever since William of Occam. And that's what Calvin specifically taught: some are predestined to heaven, some are predestined to hell. That automatically disregards sins. Luther is on record saying: "And if you murder and whore a thousand times, you still will be saved if you believe."

your audio needs help.

So funny that "Catholicism" is supposedly pro-free will! I guess I just need to freely accept some indulgences from the "Bank" of good works! I hope that not everyone asks for their good works back at once!

Ego quibusdam fidem in hac historia aut fabula non accommodo. Quaedam enim ibi sunt praestrigia demonum, quaedam autem figmenta poetica, quaedam similia uéro, quaedam non, quaedam ad delectationem stultorum.

La plupart des français ne savent pas qui est Calvin oO

@elbentos7803

3 жыл бұрын

Il ne faut pas exagérer quand même... Même si il est vrai que la plupart des français ne connaissent rien aux bases de sa théologie et ne le connaissent que de nom, comme un de deux grands réformateurs (en revanche, très très peu de français connaissent Servet, Melenchton ou Zwingli... Un peu plus de suisses je suppose).

@jfjoubertquebec

3 жыл бұрын

@@elbentos7803 Vous avez raison. Je me suis mal exprimé. Je cherchais à dire: "La plupart des français ne savent pas que Calvin est français"... En tout cas... moi jusqu'à maintenant, je confirme que c'est vrai 9 cas sur dix au moins.

@elbentos7803

3 жыл бұрын

@@jfjoubertquebec Hélas, alors .

@jfjoubertquebec

3 жыл бұрын

@@elbentos7803 Ce n'est que de l'ignorance. Ça se soigne :)

On the spectrum of salvation from absolute Free will to absolute Predestination, the Catholic Church and Arminius do not land on one end of the spectrum but right in the middle. Luther's teachings are more biblically sound - relative to Calvin's. On their own, Luther based himself on only a handful of verses, one of them doctored, and ignored whole books of the Bible.

@htoodoh5770

3 жыл бұрын

Luther ignored the other of bible.

@htoodoh5770

3 жыл бұрын

?

@str.77

3 жыл бұрын

@@htoodoh5770 What do you mean?

@htoodoh5770

3 жыл бұрын

@@str.77 I ask questions.

@nathanmcdougall4624

3 жыл бұрын

@@htoodoh5770 Luther rejected the deuterocanonical books (deemed apocryphal by the vast majority of Protestants that followed him) and harboured a suspicion of some books of the New Testament, especially the book of James, although never outright forbade their use. In fact, ironically despite Luther's rejection of the Deuterocanon, the Lutheran Church's formularies do not explicitly specify a biblical canon, and actually refer to 2nd Maccabees as Scripture.

opinions are like arseholes and one day we'll all know the truth. thats my opinion anyway

Dear brother in Christ, before making such inflammatory claims on the French Theologian, I commend you to read the Institutes of the christian religion. The audible version is really good. If what you claim remains true (after reading it) then I can say nothing but admit my lack of understanding.

@elbentos7803

3 жыл бұрын

Indeed, after having written great texts founding human emancipation, when Calvin reached power in Geneva, he behaved like a puritanical tyrant. Sadly, he wasn't the only, first or last to follow this fall : Savonarole in Firenze preceded him and Oliver Cromwell followed... And Michel Servet was one of those who paid the price of crossing Calvin's ambitions...

@Fiscacondaniel

3 жыл бұрын

@@elbentos7803 Imagine you are given the total control of a city and instead of following the modern absolutist monarchy or bourgeoisie republics of your time you decide to make a city that will glorify God in every way possible. It is an experiment, an ambitious experiment. An experiment that could make you mad. But the rule of Calvin in Geneva was not like that of the French monarch that burn every other protestant. Actually Geneva during the time of Calvin was like New York during 18 century. Every other immigrant with a different amazing idea fleed to Geneva and thanks to that the brightest and most creative thinkers during that Era come from there. Geneva was a cesspool of creativity and liberation. Amernius Calvin's nemesis lived in Geneva and studied Calvin's theology and surprisingly didn't burn at the stake like somo many others. In conclusion if you are lutheran your founder was an antisemite if you are a calvinist you founder is a relic worshipper if you are a papist... Oh boy I won't start the list otherwise my fingers will fall off. We can learn alot from the men of the past but our eyes should be steadfast in Jesus.

@elbentos7803

3 жыл бұрын

@@Fiscacondaniel Except that 18th century New-Yorkers didn't have the bad habit of burning political rivals/religious dissenters as Calvin did with Servet, a catalan reformer who sought Asylum in Geneva and ended burning at the stake for being to vocal a opposer. I'm not against Calvin's teaching, but I think we should urgently be reminded that he was a but man, with all the failures and mistakes he could possible do. And yes the last Valois were not the best statemen ever but here again, wiews may accomodate some nuance: Charles IX was more a weak man, nearly insane, and Henri III at the end, named his cousin Henri of Navarre, a calvinist, as heir to the throne of France. Only the Guises remained fanatic to thé end.

@Fiscacondaniel

3 жыл бұрын

@@elbentos7803 I didn't know that there where calvinist in the Iberian peninsula. That's amazing I also didn't knew of Servet. Are you Spanish?

@elbentos7803

3 жыл бұрын

@@Fiscacondaniel Indeed, reformed/protestants in Spain did exist, but they were very few, because they were actively hunted down by spanish inquisition, before having any chance to preach. The spanish inquisition was an institution far more repressive (and efficiently so) than anything the kings of France ever organised. In fact, Francis I (early 16th century king of France) was, initialy, relatively favorable to lutheran reformation : he thought that the roman catholic church was indeed quite corrupt and needed some reforms. But the king became very hostile when some huguenot (the denomination used to design protestants in XVIth XVIIth century France), a servant or a noble, nobody ever knew, nailed some anti-papist pamphlet to the door of his bedchamber, an act seen as a grave personnal political offense ("crime de lese majesté") : this scandal has been known as "l'affaire des placards". In the spanish context, Servet had to flee his native Spain (Catalogne/Aragon) and took refuge in France; in turn, when things turned ugly in France, he left for Geneva where Calvin had already taken power.

Maybe you dont talk theology. Because what you says, all wrong.

Oof this really butchers the Catholic Church's actual teachings