This video was pretty hard to make and it is far from perfect. Due to the subjective nature of refereeing, it is not only difficult to assess the validity of a decision but it is nearly impossible to determine whether a mistake is being made deliberately with the intention of helping a fencer. What can not be disputed is that referees are human and can be influenced by their personal connections to fencers. Do I believe the FIE refs are conspiring to help Alshamlan? No. But having a coach screaming at a referee will affect the decisions made, and the coach is less likely to face repercussions if they have strong personal connections to the referees. How do we prevent unfair refereeing? I believe the best solution is transparency. Every FIE match should be streamed and recorded, that way everyone can be held accountable. I would also recommend watching this match between Kim Junho and D'Armiento, who was being coached by Marco Siesto. The refereeing at the end is interesting: kzread.info/dash/bejne/p6efz5RqY7PZY5s.html To fully understand a referee's decision it is better to watch the point within the context of the match. I strongly advise anyone to watch the full matches, all of which can be found on KZread. I am not offering my opinions on the touches shown at the end. Some of the decisions I believe to be fair and some of them I disagree with, but I think it is best that you make up your own mind. Here are timestamps of touches: 1- 6:29 2- 6:38 3- 6:54 4- 7:06 5- 7:17 6- 7:55 7- 8:02 8- 8:10 9- 8:22 10- 8:30 12- 8:40 13- 9:13 14- 9:25 15- 9:36 16- 9:50 17- 10:10 18- 10:20 19- 10:57 20- 11:22 21- 11:38 22- 11:56 23- 12:13 24- 12:25 25- 11:34 26- 12:46 27- 13:09 28- 13:24 29- 13:42

@OlympicFoil

3 жыл бұрын

You did a really thorough job with this vid 💪 I would be proud, it's great 😊

@SlicerSabre

3 жыл бұрын

@@OlympicFoil Thanks mate

@maxhaughton1964

3 жыл бұрын

@BattleEmpoleon I really don't get that one. The only way I can even see (admittedly not as a trained referee in the slightest) is if you treat it like a foilist trying to interpret sabre and giving it to FotR based on some minuscule technicality. Deary is almost in the air against an opponent who has already backed off

@shadowkille8r99

2 жыл бұрын

No one cares

*whistles casually, avoids making eye contact*

Honestly, as someone who mostly refs these days it's been interesting to feel the other side of it. I'm absolutely not being paid or otherwise rewarded by anyone I've reffed, but I also know for a fact that I ref better when I don't have a preconceived idea who any of the fencers are and can just watch the fencing with no expectation. The clearest I've ever seen in my life was a Busan women's pro team internal comp where there were 6 fencers who were the same basic size, age, style and skill level. It was a savage murderfight but I had never seen anyone before in my life and had zero clue who was "supposed" to win or who coach's favourite was, and my god it made things easier. That's not what's happening with Oh v Alshamlan tho, so, I guess I'll just go sit quietly over here.

@sydneysabrecentre

3 жыл бұрын

PS yeah, just broadcast everything. Transparency will do more good than ham-fisted rule changes. It worked after Moscow worlds and it'll work now.

I fenced internationally for GB prior to Sabre going electric, the cheating was a running joke ... I always remember seeing my teammate hit his Italian opponent with one of the hardest cuts to head I have ever seen in Palermo Sicily, the opponent was on the floor (slightly concussed I think) ... and the judges "no" "no" 🤷‍♂️... and if you got past the judges there was the referee to contend with! The simple fact was that if you were not from a recognised fencing nation you were on a hiding to nothing And I had the pleasure of knowing and competing with James Williams, he always hit hard... but my god, heaven forbid if he was not happy with the judging or refereeing, I think I still have welts from fencing against him all these years later ... and those were just the domestic tournaments!

@TheLingmoo

2 жыл бұрын

The GB refs are no better...!

This sort of thing goes on in majority of the clubs and really detrimental to the sport. I've seen referees ignore One Light if it's scored by a "un-favorite" fencer. Ooops, I didn't see that, the referee said. I've known of young fencers who gave up on the sport because they were not given scored points in higher ranking competition. But even with everyone able to video everything, there's no mechanism to complain or argue results. USFA is pretty useless in this respect. Myself, I do not go to the club competitions where I know only points I will get are one light (if). You brought up a very important issue with the fencing in this video. It's a tough job. My respects!

Slicer, do you have a copy of By the Sword, by Richard Cohen, I think published in 2000? My copy is buried somewhere, but I do recall one chapter that had a really interesting story. At a world championship in the 60s, Women's Foil. None of the high level refs wanted to do a bout that featured the reigning champion, a woman from the Soviet Union who had a bad habit of parrying with the free hand. No one, not the refs and not the side judges wanted to call her on it, because of the repercussions the Soviet team could bring. So they all nominated this one ref, an honest man but considered a bit of an odd ball to do the match, pretending it was a great honor for him. He took the bout, and proceeded to card the Soviet for the free hand parrying, despite the glares she would give and despite the looks of the Soviet coaches. I always found this story inspiring, and yet depressing. It's inspiring that the guy had the guts to face up to anything the Soviets could bring, but depressing that the highest ranked refs in the world would throw him to the wolves so they didn't have to get called out for being willfully blind to what was going on. Edit: I downloaded a copy of the book, since I think my original hardcover was destroyed in a flood 3 years ago. The bout took place in 1971, the World Championships held in Vienna. The Soviet fencer was Galina Gorokhova. Her opponent was a Romanian, Ana Pascu. The two had met earlier in the previous round, and Pascu let Gorokhova win, in hopes of a future favor. The referee, then known as the Director, was Guido Malacarne. Sure enough, Gorokhova did favor her opponent Pascu, and after a warning from Malacarne, he disqualified her. So I was mistaken. When Gorokhova did have a reputation for parrying with the free hand, that was not why she was disqualified.

@SlicerSabre

3 жыл бұрын

I have never read it and have never heard this story, thanks for sharing. The sad truth is that nobody who has any ambitions of becoming an FIE referee can ever question the actions of another referee because then they will never be allowed to join their club.

I watched the alshamlan's match irl i was a there and it was a heated moment,the coach was shouting the french were booing and it was crazy and funny to becouse the coach was jumping,runing around,shouting and he was even on his knees

Thank you for making this video @slicersaber unfortunately our sport especially saber has a lot of “conflict of interests” and it truly affects all levels (all the way to the Olympics). I agree with you, there might not be a specific agenda or conspiracy to help Alshamlam, but who he has in his box will undoubtably influence the Refs decisions....the best would be to continue making videos like this and make all matches public ally available to help deter this behaviour in the future...

Nice video, Slicer Sabre! As a former foilist, we had the same problem in my town when we competed against the other local club in foil. The trainer stole points in our face, as an example he used good favero apparatus but he wrote the points in a paper sheet because "the remote control was broken" 🙂. So we had no only to fence and try to score one light points but also we had to count mentally the points of the match to not been robbed. By the way, I am not saying that the referees of the video were acting wrong knowing it 😅, but matches should be recorded to make our sport as much fair as possible.

Great video! first off, you got guts showing this, especially that Honeybone bout from a few years back. Same people running the show then are still running it now. I am glad you even included names but becareful with the high priests of ROW. Your video has made me re-think my opinions on advocating for a standardized way of calling ROW along the whole strip rather then the current "in the box it's this way but along the rest of the strip it's like this," but it could still be a valid idea. Just wouldn't want the corruption being spread along the whole strip instead of being confined to 4 meters as it is now. We can all pretty much agree that the toughest most controversial calls happen in the box and that for the most part wierd things don't tend to happen as far as the calling of ROW at other places along the strip but why? Real simple, the attack has too much power and everyone knows this, so nobody wants to cede the ROW. Solution, measures to diminish the power of the attack. For example, call attack into preparation outside of the box with two lights. ( some of the attacks since the 170 timing just don't deserve to have ROW, inmo) I have started to see video challenges won, where the attacker gets too bouncy and greedy with their backwards hop mixed in during thier attack and the defender lunges into it. This is a good trend. I would like to see some of the clearly waiting holding attacks punished by allowing the defender to attack into this. Also, for some of you younger people in the crowd, along time ago the hand was a valid target area and was removed in 2000, along with stiffer blades allegedly to fight the whipover. The stiffer blades are great but the whipovers usally hit the forearm or torso not the back of the hand. I have developed an electric glove that includes even the backs of the fingers. This slows the attack down considerably and gives the defender much more opportunity to stop cut. This is good because it insures the attacker must be aware of any stop cut and makes for more of a back and forth game, which ironically is what occupies nearly all of the Amazing touches videos since 2010, despite the fact the game has been based around the 4 meter box for quite some time and this is where most of the fencing takes place. One comment above mentions sabers with sensors. This might help, but to slow the attack down, increasing the weight of the sabers or changing their point of balance would probably favor the defender. Other more radical options could involve eliminating ROW,( Not good, unless you punish the doubles) or getting rid of the strip completely so that a defensive fencer could basically use angles and offline movement against the attacker. I have experimented with variations of all of these at a club level and hope that after this olympic cycle is over I can bring some top level fencers to run an experimental tournament with some of these ideas to see how they do against fencers who have more training in alternative rule sets, target areas and even heavier sabers.

@SlicerSabre

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah I agree that the attack is currently OP. I think extending the timing was a pretty stupid decision; it was supposed to make parrying easier but from my experience it hasn't. All it has done is make counterattacking harder so 1) People won't look to make long defense as a first intention, your first intention always has to be to win the touch in the box, you can very rarely let the opponent start a long attack. 2) Calls that were once one light actions now have to be made by the referee which adds more room for randomness. On long attacks if a fencer is being too hoppy or stopping for too long and the "defender" makes a committed attack then sometimes refs give "attack stop" whereas before it would probably just be one light. I understand the appeal for sensors but they would prevent 80% of the counterattacks we see today. There would have to be a massive sudden change in refereeing for them to work and I don't think that's possible.

@RyanMatt12

3 жыл бұрын

​@@SlicerSabre Extending the timing is primarily responsible for why we're calling more attacks in prep in the box now. A direct riposte is more likely to put a light on, so an attacker is holding their tip a little bit longer to feint around a late parry. That's in turn creating more AiP. 1) Long defense can't be a first intention action. It requires the attacker to play into the defender's game. If an athlete is choosing to defend, their first intention is "make a preparation with the intention of my opponent starting an attack", and their second intention is "successfully defend against my opponent's attack" 2) Randomness was already inherent in those one light actions that are now two light actions. Maybe you're gambling with whether the ref will call malparry, but before you were gambling whether or not a remise would be one light

@RyanMatt12

3 жыл бұрын

The 2005 timing change (250ms to 120ms) was inspired primarily by the arbitrariness of attack in prep outside the box. Everyone likes the consistency we've got outside of the box, and fencers have adapted to it. Making the back of the hand target area is a bad idea. Pre-Rio, we'd hear about a hand puncture at nearly every world cup, and that was before hitting your opponents hand (where the glove has vulnerable seams) was incentivized. Incentivizing someone to cut at their fingers is definitely gonna create some damage, especially how hard international fencers hit

@alexthegreat38

3 жыл бұрын

I do like the idea of calling AoP more along the entire strip. As a foilist, I think some of the absence of blade/marching stuff in modern foil can get a little ridiculous, especially when the arm is pulled all the way back. I think a return to calling more attack in preparation could be good for both weapons of convention

@esgrimaxativa5175

3 жыл бұрын

@@SlicerSabre Great chat here in the comments. I hadn't thought about the issue of sensors making counterattacks harder, which is true but then again they would make parries easier which would really help the defender. I don't really think the sensors and counterattacks would be harder due to refereeing but harder due to the technique. Some counterattacks like the sky hook would need to be worked out differently. ( I am doing this now. We train saber using epee sleeves from time to time.)

This is why i left foil and went to epee. Subjetivity is no good.

I have experienced some form of this. I made a sweet circular parry on the back line with a single light for me and the ref just didn't call it. I've also had people not give obvious attack no calls as attack before the switch to favor attaque composee

These need to be in a ref training video.

I liked seeing Maestro Santelli at the start of this video.

yoo im an epee fencer but i think i can tell when someone's legs are crossed

@coletrain

3 жыл бұрын

Same here... Why aren’t they calling crossing again?

@snakesonthismondaytofriday1750

3 жыл бұрын

Epee scoring for the win 😅 its basically "little kid rules" when we played with toy swords as kids lol

@shadowkille8r99

2 жыл бұрын

How can you tell if you fence epee????????????????????????

I used to fence back in the 90’s, taught by an ex-uk team fencer. I wish I could remember his name, but it was over 20 years ago and he must have easily been in his late 50s or 60s by then. But I distinctly remember him telling me a story about how the bib of the mask was off-target, but at one time there were no regulations regarding its size. I can’t remember which team (maybe Hungary or Bulgaria? I’m going back 20+ years here), but he told me of them exploiting this at a competition by turning up in masks with bibs that covered their entire torso, effectively making their whole target area off-target (basically like finding the “God mode” cheat in a computer game) - and that after this regulations around the size of the bib were brought in. Can anybody confirm or clarify this for me? Even though he was an ex-Uk team competitor (and very competent tutor), I can’t rule out this being an old sport myth that he picked up from somewhere (though it did sound like it would have happened during his career).

@catlikearcher9955

2 жыл бұрын

It definitely sounds like something that could’ve happened. Before they laid out rules for the size of the cricket bat, someone turned up with a bat that was wider than the wicket, basically making it impossible for the fielding team to do anything.

Wrong. Onishenko did NOT have a "button" in his epee -- that would have NEVER passed an Olympic-level weapons inspection. In fact, his weapon was checked several times because his opponents consistently complained that they had never been touched. The Italians complained furiously but, basically, they weren't believed. But when the British added to these complaints the bout committee confiscated his weapons, examined them, and found NO button. But the Italians took a hacksaw to the grip and soon found that there was a strain gauge (an instrument used to measure strain and pressure ) embedded in it. All Onishenko had to do was squeeze the metal handle and xfer pressure to the strain gauge. Sadly, while they were doing an autopsy on Onishenko's weapon the rest of the Russian epee team gathered up all their equipment and stormed out "in protest". When they returned their weapons were normal and only Onishenko was left holding the bag. He disappeared into the Gulag for a short and unhappy life.

that why epee is the best weapon 😁

If your country or club label on your back is reputed to be not a fencing power, start with -3.

good video, hot takes 😬😬

Foil is easiest to cheat because of the way attacks are called. This is why foil fencer have to fence the way the refere wants.

I would have been sooooo mad, I’m glad cheating is so very rare in Epee

Yup, there is, just happend at the Asian Olympic qualifier for women's foil

@user-ry4un7fu5p

3 жыл бұрын

what happened?

@psalmco2425

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-ry4un7fu5p the host countries ref and player were helping each other in the foil semis and finals, every 2 lights that came up was automatically given to uzbekistan, even when video review was asked ref never changed the call, it was obvious in the semis and when the finals came it was worrying, but despite all the odds singapore came back from being down 11 to 14 and getting the win with the final touch being a one lights, justice served at least but it was close to being a cheaters victory

I think the problems with referee bias in Saber are just as bad today as they were when it was fenced dry. You don't have the ridiculous issues regarding the materiality of hits, but judgement of right of way seems even more problematic to me now than it did then.

Do you think there's anything that could be changed about sabre specifically to make the judging less subjective?

@chukuemekaoje1015

3 жыл бұрын

This is drastic but eliminating ROW from sabre would probably do the trick. Make scoring like epee where double lights give both a touch until 14-14 (44-44 for teams). The suggestion is more of a joke but it's because of the fact that ROW in sabre fosters that heavy subjectivity (I'm willing to bet that part of it is the fact that sabre is also a cutting weapon).

@maxhaughton1964

3 жыл бұрын

Enforcing good quality recordings of matches would be good. Currently, even if the match does get posted on youtube with commentary or analysis by fencers for example the quality is often awful. We need more angles and higher frame rates, both of which are more than achievable on a fairly modest budget these days.

@SlicerSabre

3 жыл бұрын

Firstly I'd just like to see more transparency; film every single match (poules and prelims included) so if anything suspicious does happen it can be seen by the whole world. As it is if a ref wants to give a free point to someone in his poule he can do so without there ever being any evidence of it. Secondly I would like to see a move away from trying to split every single action in the middle. If 53% of people see attack right and 47% of people see attack left, no touch should be given. Finally I think there needs to be a total rewrite of the rule book. As it is there is such a huge difference between what is written and what is applied that refs can pretty much pick and choose. At the start of the every season I would like to see an official video from the FIE explaining how various touches should be split and what the conventions are. As it is they can make things up as they go along and everyone just has to try and follow.

@alexthegreat38

3 жыл бұрын

@@SlicerSabre Yeah, more simuls would probably be fine

@alexthegreat38

3 жыл бұрын

What do y'all think about the proposal to add accelerometers to the sabre so that you have to hit with a certain amount of force to get the light to go on?

The only things I don’t like about this sport is the equipment, and how easily things can get messed up by refs in foil and sabre. I shoulda just fenced epee lmao 😭

@TheLingmoo

2 жыл бұрын

Even then, Eastern European fencers learn how ref cheating could be done and how to apply it. Some refs learn from the top, how to cheat in Epee to favour their own, for example calling hits invalid if they can call it a offstrip floor hit, or calling it invalid because it was after he had called halt. There are many techniques even with Epee.

Every sport has some cheating, and fencing is no exception. Some cheating is unconscious, like giving a higher ranked fencer the benefit of the doubt, and some is deliberate. The best solution is to root it out as it arises, but I'm not certain there's any one thing that can be changed.

Most calls in Paskov vs. Honeybone video looked pretty good to me: Pancho consistently wins the attack in the box either by starting the extension of his hand before his opponent does or by starting off he line before his opponent when the "allez" command is given. The last call looks odd, but the score was 14:7 by then, so I am not sure how much difference it would make in terms of determining the winner of the bout.

@johnrohde5510

2 жыл бұрын

I agree.

Can someone explain 12 and 26 to me?

There are a few things you need to correct to make this video present a more rigorous methodology. First, you can't just show highlights. If you do this, you can make any type of argument. For example, James Harden is an NBA player that's obviously a poor defender. But, a video was made that presented highlights of good defensive plays in order to prove he was a good defender. The video did, in fact, make him look pretty good. To provide an accurate representation, you need to provide all the points. Second, you stated that to prevent favoritism, we should tag and post all FIE matches. This won't matter because bouts are already posted and it doesn't change anything. I think something better is to set up a large screen display of the bout so that the entire audience can see. Then, require the referee to explain the action in slow motion. If he's favoring a player, it will be more obvious because his explanation of the action will be absurd and he will face more public backlash and humiliation.

@SlicerSabre

3 жыл бұрын

I agree that you can cherry pick clips to support any belief. That is why I recommend you watch the full matches before making any conclusions. Typically a world cup will only be streamed from the last 64 onward. This means that the poules and preliminary rounds take place pretty much behind closed doors. Budapest 2021 was exceptional with most poule and preliminary matches streamed. Interestingly though, none of Alshamlan's were.

@researchmode8540

3 жыл бұрын

@@SlicerSabre I just don't know if streaming will make a difference because it still doesn't make the cheating glaringly obvious since the actions are so fast. But, if the refs had to explain why one person's attack started before another, people will start booing loudly if it's ludicrous. Look at Trump supporters. You show them stuff that Trump did, it won't necessarily sway them. When you break down and analyze the evidence for them, it helps.

"Saber referees sometimes are influenced by the coach of the fencer" ...and?

@noahz

3 жыл бұрын

Also...Shin A-Lam is in the thumbnail but this is all saber?

@aminity548

2 жыл бұрын

how could that be a good thing

I thought this was going to be an overview about systemic cheating, or even racism, in fencing. It appears to mostly be one fencer complaining about his bouts.