For anyone trying to put the difference between '50% of attacks land' vs. '75% of attacks land' into perspective: If I win 50% of touches, one of us will win the bout 15-14. If I win 75% of touches, I will win the bout 15-5.

Your 2008 sabre videos are what got me to love fencing and get into refereeing, the stats you mention now make a lot of sense now 😅

For anyone who will think this is Sabre drama let me be clear that EVERY weapon is at risk here and everything we have worked for could come to an end. Beyond a few people getting rich AF, peoples livelihood are at stake, entire countries have their fencing programs built around the fact that fencing is an Olympic sport. Dont let this sport die for within because the Olympic dream that makes this sport for many could very likely destroy it. Let your voice be hear and stand up. Again, if Sabre goes down we likely ALL go down. Beyond that I love these stats and cant wait to nerd out on any future stats you have. I was always wondering was you could do against a strong attacker in Sabre and found it funny that the answer matched the one in my head is don't let them attack (Aka attack first) or just pray on defense. thanks again for your video.

@Daminlk

4 ай бұрын

The K. I. S. S. method should be adopted so that a ref cannot influence the outcome as much. I don't think Epee has a problem but the rules need to be re-written for ROW impacting Foil and Sabre. The interpretations vary so much person to person and even club / regional level regarding the rules. Simpler rules will also draw more spectators!

@stephencheng1785

4 ай бұрын

I've been a foil fencer for more than a decade and I have a son who's on the foil team at a Division I NCAA program, so I am just livid with this sabre fiasco. I've always viewed sabre with a jaundiced eye precisely because of the subjective nature of sabre's right of way rules. There's way too much subjective elements to sabre judging so as to make the entire sport illegitimate in the eyes of most casual observers. This obviously is not true for foil or epee, but this problem with sabre if not rectified, will drag down all three weapons. Let me propose a simple solution for sabre: just throw out all double light touches. They don't count. The only way a sabre fencer can score a touch is to hit the other guy without getting hit himself. This will force sabre fencers to actually fence rather than just lunging at each other every single time.

@megasyl123

4 ай бұрын

This is such a poor suggestion I can’t believe it was made by anyone with any familiarity with fencing. Throw out any two light action? Parry riposte, beat attacks, point in line, attack in preparation. All you’ve suggested is getting rid of right of way. I appreciate the candor around your distaste for the weapon, it shows you are at least aware that your recommendation contained no more thought than the saber fencers that suggest foil needs to get rid of off target lights because they slow down the bouts.

@stephencheng1785

4 ай бұрын

You are not thinking about what I'm saying. What I am proposing is nothing less than complete revamping of the sabre fencing rules. I'm saying in order to regain any credibility and legitimacy for the sport, you need to get rid of all subjective components on the part of the referees. This means you need to get rid of the right of way rules in sabre altogether. The nature of the weapon and the speed of the game in modern era pretty much made the right of way rules meaningless in sabre. We should go back to the short timing for the double lights so it's essentially simultaneous, then we can just throw out those touches. This is very doable. @@megasyl123

Thank you for this video and shedding light on this situation. I have been involved in the sport since I started competing in 2013, so I have watched most of these situations unfold firsthand. I completely agree with reverting the timing change back to its original timing - I think that the adverse effects of the change outweigh the original intention of cutting down on remise scoring. Now, attacks are too strong within the strategy of fencing and it leads to vicious fighting within the box for right-of-way and basically eliminates any strategy that involves long-defense. First, I would like to note that I do not believe eliminating referee bias or getting all referees on the same page is possible in the current situation. I think there are two changes that must be made. First of all, referee bias seems to me to be composed of two problems; lack of incentive and strict requirements leading to moral hazard problems, and unclear rules within the two major rulebooks used throughout the fencing world. Let's start with the lack of incentive and strict requirements for becoming a referee. Under-compensation of referees is a large problem, making it much easier for referees to make this decision to turn towards scandalous and biased behavior - after all, it is much easier to participate in unethical behavior when money is involved to compensate for any risk taken. This problem has an obvious but difficult solutions to provide; we need to have stricter requirements for becoming a referee and there needs to be more thought put into how to better compensate referees. When I say stricter requirements towards becoming a referee, I mean more clear assessments of a referee's abilities. For example, we could have referees tested on touches from videod bouts to see how they make calls. In addition, prior experience level, especially as an actual accomplished fencer, would be extremely indicative of refereeing ability as well. Obviously, neither of these idea can happen until people start putting their money where their mouths are, and fencing has more money invested into it. This leads us to the second problem, unclear rules. I recently went through both the USA Fencing and FIE rulebooks, and my main problem with sabre rules is how unclear the rules are. Within T106, they define the idea of simultaneous actions, but they do not really outline what specific requirements fulfill simultaneous actions. In addition, the rules apply differently when someone has right-of-way versus when we are talking about in the box - for example, when someone is ahead in feet but pulls their arm in the box, we count that as preparation, but when the same thing happens with right of way established out of the box, we call it attack counterattack. This is not up for dispute and is clearly defined. However, a problem arises because there are referees that will loosely interpret the rules, blurring the lines between attack-in-prep and attack-counterattack within the box. I think this arises from a lack of specific requirements outlined within the rules. The common actions within the sport that are not just distance parry, parries, and attacks should be described clearly along with the requirements for fulfilling the actions. For example, we could have a conversation about when an attack-in-prep is actually a counterattack within the box and then have it clearly defined in the rules; say that we made it so that a certain amount of distance has to be covered along with the hand being first during simultaneous actions in order for it to count as attack-in-preparation. Alternatively, we could define attack-counterattack as the situation where both hands hit at the same time but one fencer covered a clearly defined extra distance in the middle. Whatever the case, the rules need to be more specific in order to lessen the amount of interpretation that can be taken by referees. In this way, it makes it extremely difficult to exploit a bias when making judgements on touches.

Excellent video, and bravo for being brave and out-front about this! I am posting this to our club’s FB page, and will throw all my students into a headlock to make them watch it. Suggestion: why don’t they publish a written version of the current rules, supplemented with video clips to clarify the rules. Right now it is the “current feeling” about reprise or preparation, which seems to mutate every four months. The old resistance to this was that it would be too expensive to print, translate and distribute. As a DOWNLOAD this argument is no longer valid. Sadly I think reffing issues will speed the arrival of AI refs.

Why can't we go back to the way they fenced saber back in 2008 or 2005? Even 1996 is better then today's fencing, which is so awful I know a couple of A rated fencers and a national champion walking away from the sport because of the way saber is played today. I myself am on the edge...mostly due to the reffing...............Great ending to your vid btw

@romanista77

4 ай бұрын

2008 was so good… I miss that time in sabre..

Bring back ‘Nico vs Aldo at the Madrid GP’ style sabre fencing!

First, don’t let the referee be so pedantic for calls in the box. There should be more simultaneous calls when both fencers attack in the box. It should be some action that doesn’t require video review to distinguish who did a “cleaner” attack. Second, “distance parries” during the back and forth phase should give the person who successfully evaded the attack all the time in the world (ok, a slight exaggeration) to take over. Third, forward cut by the attacker that ends should end the attack. Attackers can’t be marching down the strip chopping continuously. Of course, the defender has to take over, but is so, give point to defender making that “distance parry”.

@leftysabreuse3257

4 ай бұрын

agree on all points. Well said!

I'm not sure what happened to my original comment, but I think that in an ideal world, the balance should be 55-60% success rate for attacks. Enough to incentivize attacking and make it better than defense to promote a more entertaining style, but not enough that it's oppressive. I'd like to see maybe a 135ms lockout timer and how that plays out.

Great video! I was wondering if the problems addressed in this video, such as defense & offense being off balanced, and reffing being ambiguous, apply similarly to foil? Or do these problems really only apply to sabre? (I figured epee isn't affected by these problems at all considering a light simply mean a point)

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

(At the top level at least) in foil the balance is quite good: that's why there are so many entertaining back and forth actions

@coborn7459

4 ай бұрын

Thanks! @cyrusofchaos

@bbwood98

4 ай бұрын

First- Cyrus - great video. Second - at least in Foil IMHO there are some issues with trends of calling different things - Hand tempo at the latest NAC was interesting - basically with some refs, I start moving forward, but pull my arm or make a cutover/large change of line/twich and it's called for my retreating opponent. (but not with all refs . . ). I understand that style evolves; so I am curious to see what happens in the next world cup (this weekend) and other tournaments. . . Anyhow, curious to see more stats (I don's suppose you've done this for foil as well . . . ?). Finally - you are right - if one of the weapons goes down we are all in trouble - and that after a sustained period of high growth (2008-2022) in the sport. Thanks again!

What about moving the en guarde line back outside of advance lunge distance thus removing the 40% simultaneous attacks in the middle?

@donaldbadowski290

4 ай бұрын

Although I wasn't around for it, my older fencing buddies would tell me about the days before the forward crossover was nixed. Guys would go on guard, on the line, and ref would tell them "Back, back, back!", having them move far beyond 4m. They did this so that they could see which one of them was doing anything to establish ROW. 4M was just too close for them to see it. Of course you wouldn't see that at the highest levels of sabre fencing, because the world was watching.

Great video as always, thanks for what you're doing here. Appreciate the history lesson on boxing . . . . and I hope we don't go the same way.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

me too brother :/

Thank you for this.

smart answer to a clearly (as you said it) depressing problem. hope your propositions will be heard

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

Me too :)

Andrew, do you have data on what was the percentage of successful parry-riposte vs. successful counterattack in the time of 50% defense effectiveness?

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

I do not, but I know that outside the first zone both options are less effective now than they were before the timing change in 2016

Great video! Fully agree with everything you said! I would like to add that also quite a common touch on defense was pris de fer which is now mostly given as a parry riposte for the attacking fencer. Reasoning: „You took the blade too low.“ Currently, a defending fencer has close to no tools other than a distance parry - which is an incredibly difficult touch on international level - or a classic parry - which if you are unlucky gets called mal parre. Like … no wonder that every coach is now focusing everything on your prep & athletism in order to make you win the right of way. Currently, there‘s no room for strategic fencing.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

Sad isn't it 😕

Great video. You're so right, Andrew - shortening the timing again would fix an awful lot and help cure the prevalence of the janky bounce attack (the kicking opponents sabre with your foot video has to be the nadir of that crap). What was the problem that the change of timing was solving? Sabre was functioning very well then.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

You're going to laugh: it was supposed to increase the power of defense by making the parry stronger 😂🤣 I hope you're doing well Owen!

Thank you for your very nice response to the initial video. One comment is that the same happened to tennis in the last 30 years where the sport changed to a lot of more back and forth and a lot less actions at the net. Another comment from my husband Jeremy is that refereeing for attack in the box might be standardized in the future through AI, permitting more uniform decisions across referees and within tournaments. But will that be still fun?

I’m very new to the sport, my son just starting 4 month ago, but we love it! One thing that fascinates me is how the sport evolves. It requires great creativity to get the advantage. It’s unfortunate to see the possibility of cheating with the ambiguity, but it seems the nature of the sport could lend itself to evolving around it to some degree. We have seen a huge up swing in enrollment in our club with the younger crop. Keep making videos and providing education because this new generation is watching. 👍

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

I'm glad this hasn't affected you guys in a negative way: with some isolated incidents this appears to only affect world cup level fencing

Richard Francis “Dick” Oles, who coached Johns Hopkins fencing athletes to more than 600 team victories over 44 years, used to call that "two attacks"

Thank you! It has been too long since common sense chose to wake up and speak as loud as duplicity does.

Excellent points all, I agree 100%

Andrew, I have more radical ideas on how to deal with this nightmare. If you will be at JO in Charlotte, let's talk.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

Sounds good but since I don't know who you are you're going to have to find me 😅

@flammasecutor

4 ай бұрын

I am Boris. The guy who used to teach you how fence ;)

I would be interested in the data in regards to hand injuries in sabre fencing when the timings were short? During that era, hand injuries seemed to increae and the FIE changed to 800N gloves in respose. Point hits to wrist were very vogue as it increased the chance of one light! I definatly support the community for transparency in refereeing, I dont think changing the box timing is one of the many answers to solve it but talking about it and collating what we can see in the streaming, is a couragous start!

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

There was not an increase in hand injuries. The new gloves were added because of a freak accident involving my friend Jeff Spear: a blade broke and went through his hand during a simultaneous action and immediately the gloves were redesigned to provide more protection against such a thing happening again

@Bethspeedy

4 ай бұрын

There were a few hand penetrations in the UK prior to glove change as well. I’m sure the FIE semi would have collated this increase incidents and implemented 800N gloves.

Also in Italy there are lots of sexual scandals in the Italian fencing team. I am glad is coming out, it has been going for years

Cryus, your last point about refs all being on the same page. Agreed. But the thing is at present, the entire structure of "what is correct" is being set by a handful of very high level referees / coaches, and the consensus among them is what is trickling down to us mortals. Leaving aside that they are coaches of players in the game, they have a dog in the fight, they also act is if they are gods on high, and we accept it, like it's the weather. Complain all you want about the weather, no one ever does anything about it. Old joke, right? OK, high level refs decide to change things, and the rest of us accept it, like it is the weather and we can't do anything about it. The referees are not supposed to be artists. They are not supposed to be creative. They are supposed to be making the tough calls, not changing the interpretation of those calls. We need workmen as referees. Bricklayers, not arts. Or better ye accounts, who get in trouble when they get creative. Fencers are not supposed to be a canvas for refs to play with.

Thanks for this, first of all. I remember you're conversation with Dan Kellner where he said in essence that he didn't care how the refs were calling things as long as they were consistent. So...How do you GET all refs "on the same page" when some are clearly dishonest or at thie very least not fairly disinterested? One really could fairly ask why foil seems to be far less plagued with these issues (or don't you agree?). We have the same potential for right of way to be interpreted capriciously but yet we all, mostly, seem to settle on a convention, at least in a given year, that the refs adhere to. An appeal to bad actours isn't likely to be effective, in my view. USFA needs to be willing and able to step in and intervene much the way the IOC did in the Kharlan case. Membership could and should be revoked in those cases with clear evidence of cheating or bias.

Thank you.

Cyrus for FIE president

Screw it. Bring back the sabre fleche. Return to 1980s timings in the conventional weapons and quit calling passivity in épée.

Yes, shorten the timing to make attack and defense equally strong. Also, perhaps make hits in the center box invalid?

Great video. Love the stats. Grinding stats are like aces in tennis, rallies entertaining. There was a patch in the past when big hitters dominated then athletes got stronger and better able to return. Is this a likely change? Also could adopt previous rules when sabre flèche was together and then priority was given. What about using the x-box Kinect technology or something similar to formalise ROW. Get rid of referees all together.

@Mastermagi01

4 ай бұрын

I don't think saber fencers will ever adapt or overcome the current metagame, since the current meta is rooted in ambiguity. by its very nature, a referee is able to call two-light touches however they want and get away with it so long as they have backers. This isn't a phase like what takes place in many other sports where a few athletes become more dynamic or strong and they force everyone to adapt. this is more like a game that kids play in elementary school, where the rules are invented and changed as if there were no rules at all. Since the interpretation of the rules is so loose, fencers aren't adapting to the competition as much as they are adapting to current trends in refereeing. Imagine for a moment that the trend was different, and referees called every instance of blade contact a parry. overnight, the dominant strategy would swing to defense, and fencers would find themselves afraid to attack, since blade contact would result in them losing. While it might seem ridiculous, this metagame could exist under the current rules since the definition of parry or beat attack aren't clear. What needs to change is the ambiguity. Its in the gray areas that refs and fencers are able to cheat, so that gray area needs to be eliminated to make cheating more difficult AND make the game more sane to watch.

I've always fenced foil and have only loved it more since the lockout time was tightened. That said, I always felt like people thought foil was the most frustrating to fence and a majority of people eventually moved on to other weapons. Given the frustration of most points being awarded by referee, I always understood why. Now in 2024 to get an epee fencer to stick their arm out you have to card them 5 times. In sabre 60% of the points are decided by analyzing the molecules on someone's arm to determine which of the two people who immediately double advance lunged did so "more correctly." Sabre and Epee are gonna have to figure something out so that us foilists can go back to being made fun of baselessly again. Without the constant ridicule we both deserve and have become accustomed to, how will we truly reach our full potential?

Miss the old timing... Every time I've brought it up, most howl at how terrible it was. But, of all times to fence sabre, that was the best. I'm also in favour of anything that takes the referee out of the equation.

It's sabre, isn't it always "pointless" to attack. 😜

As someone who ended their world cup career in foil in 2012 and starting coaching, I have really shifted my opinion on foil and saber ROW issues. I think the introduction to the topic is spot-on, discussing the level of interpretation to score in foil/saber is simply unacceptable regardless of any tweaks we make. For example, my mom has been watching fencing for 30+ years yet is bewildered with who scores in so many actions. Can you imagine that same thing happening in any popular sport. "I love hockey but its just so hard to know who scored?..." Furthermore, with my students it feels insane that I don't expect them to really have a good grasp on ROW for years. I think radical change is needed that is outside of the box. I think for Saber timing is one part of it but what about increasing the weight of the weapon to slow actions down? If you can't change line as quickly suddenly defense is an option. Other sort of insane ideas should be on the table too, I think, for foil could eliminate ROW with exception of just parry riposte? With timing adjustments I think that could be really interesting, where attacks become closer to epee as the opponent can double out. Then as one person is ahead there is an incentive to use blade actions to secure a single point? I think praying for an end to corruption due to good intentions or even cracking down on problem refs will not work. The rules need to be simplified full stop. Prevents corruption and increases viewership and participation.

@Josef-qr6pk

4 ай бұрын

totally agree on a radical change. What if you change the rule in sabre as followed: fencers alternately are allowed to start slightly later than the opponent at the signal. So whoever´s turn it is can start on allez, and the opponent can start as soon as the opponent starts moving. Before the match a priority is given to one fencer (similar to a coinflip in football) and the winner can choose if he wants to start or he wants to `receive` the attack. With this rule, the attack simultan cant happen anymore. There can be special rules, for example at 14-14 its back to normal rules. I know with this radical change, the thrill of starting quicker and in general being faster is gone but maybe sabre gets more exciting again. cheers

@Roca891

4 ай бұрын

I agree Sabre and foil are almost unwatchable for me now. I tried foil again for the first time in years and everything I knew about how attacks are called apparently is wrong now. 😂 this is why I only fence epee!

@jarikrawczyk

Ай бұрын

Making a sabre heavier will make it hurt much more when it connects, once it is accelerated.

I'm a beginning epee fencer and confess to ignorance on these matters. But you seem to be spot on in your analysis. May I ask, why not go further? Why not focus on a goal of completely objectifying judging? Why not eliminate Right of Way, or does it encourage defense and more "balance?" There may be many clever ways to eliminate most judgement calls. Why not award 1/2 point for NOT getting hit when a touch is scored (a "clean" touch)?. This sport evolved from dueling, but it no longer resembles sword play. Do I win if I impale you a tenth of a second before you impale me? We're both dead! Saber bouts are particularly ridiculous now - no defense whatsoever.

@holyknightthatpwns

4 ай бұрын

It feels a bit weird to mention attacking a tenth of a second later knowing that you do epee where it's less than that for a point. Right of way *can* be used to encourage certain behaviors/actions that the community values, such as fully extending the arm, parrying the blade, etc. It essentially lets the community value things other than just getting a barely earlier touch

@jarikrawczyk

Ай бұрын

​@@holyknightthatpwnsI am not sure how taking ineffective parries enhances community value of taking parries. Ineffective in a sense that they don't prevent you from being hit (though perhaps "effective" in giving you the priority). The most important value in the fencing community should be "don't get hit". (period).

@holyknightthatpwns

Ай бұрын

@@jarikrawczyk is the goal don't get hit at all, or don't get hit lethally, or don't get hit first? Should rewards favor defense more than offense, vice versa, or both evenly? The issue that right of way can solve (in my opinion, obviously) is punishing recklessly aggressive attackers, which is generally considered an unpolished and amateur way of fighting - it might win you bouts, but it would certainly result in you dying if you tried it in mulitple duels. A good right of way system also can acknowledge that not all touches are equal - an incidental scraping blow shouldn't have the same value as a well structured thrust to the chest, for example. With those ideas in mind, you *could* craft a right of way system that rewards careful and precise fencing by rewarding parries or whatever. What we currently have is a ruleset that rewards judge's interpretation, which I think is dumb, but not any more dumb than "all touches count and first touch wins." I'm not saying the current systen actually works well. I'm saying that the idea of a judged ruleset has merit.

@jarikrawczyk

Ай бұрын

@@holyknightthatpwns Hmm. I supose if you duel with real weapons, you should try not to get killed. I may be wrong about your goal in such situation, so our opinion may differ. In a combat sport killing people is off the table, so the best would be not to get hit at all, but not to get hit first semms pretty good to me. The second best. You can't punish recklessly aggressive amateur attacker with parry that actually moves her/his blade far enough that you don't get hit? Cuz - you know- that was the idea behind the rules initially, when it was judged few hundred years before the scoring boxes (1933 epee) when foil was a training weapon for rapier, that if you take a proper parry, your riposte will hit the target faster, then remisse of the attack in the initial line of attack. And so on. The rules were not ment to encourage "community values". The problem HAS STARTED when people have began using rules to "encourage community values", and using them for gaining tactical advantage, and to bewitch the referees. And when scoring boxes have appeared in foil 1956 and sabre 1988, and the reason for rules has dissappeard, the people that were heavly invested in the rules kept them in. The combat (and combat sport) has turned into the theater. If you can't punish an unpolished, reckless attacker and amateur with your polished, professional, techniques of defense and your own attack, cuz she/he is - let us say faster, perhaps you should work on your speed, or perhaps your techniques are not polished enough, since to win you need also complexe and arbitrary rules subjectively applied by the judges, to use as a cruth. To win fencing match you need to score more then 1 point, that is the fencing match mimicks 5 to 15 duels. If a reckless, unpolished, amateur attacker manages to hit you 15 times faster then you can hit her/him, if she/he wins 15 duels in a row with you, the dueling attacker in real life would be perhaps dead at some point, but so would be you, probably bit earlier, or quite a lot. Since you started with lethality issue, well structured hit at torso, depending where a torso is exactly being hit, could be less lethal then completey incidental and not structured at all blow making a hole in your aorta. An incidental cut on arm could cut any of the 3 major nerves, let us say here ulnar, making you defenseless like a baby seal, when your well structured and precise hit half inch higher could bounce off the ulnar bone and not significantly harm your opponent. Therefore this criterion is useless for scoring. The winning by chance by a worst fencer is mitigated well enough by necessity to score many points. As long as you have human judges awarding points based on subjective observations, you have a problem. All touches always count, it would be a dumb rule indeed. It is good that such rule does not exist in fencing. Generally in many sport if you do something first, faster, further, you win. Nothing wrong with that. Then there is gymnastics, figure skating, even bodybuilding - very significant and commendable physical effort combined with artistic presentation that needs to be judged. Is that where you want fencing to go? Get a point for pretty, well structured parry-riposte that has parried nothing?

Yes?No?Abstain? Think it was bad now?

I’m curious, the 2005 timing caused perfectly good reposts to be timed out. It does give a more opportunity for stop, cuts and counter attacks when they’re going backwards. It would be interesting to see referees, call arm and hand actions on the long attack, similarly to the box.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

You're suggesting a change that gives more power to the referees? Hard veto

@todddressell4735

4 ай бұрын

@@CyrusofChaos Just thinking out loud. Shortening the blockout time did lead to remises scored over properly executed ripostes. A balanced game is important to promote excitement. Thanx for your thoughtful videos!

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

@@todddressell4735 i would say that was definitely the case for the first season while people were getting used to it. after people got used to it they basically just had to be more careful finishing their attacks because the counterattack and remise was stronger youre welcome :)

I guessed 40%

Agree with most of this, but I have to completely disagree that one of the primary reasons for getting into fencing is to possibly qualify to the Olympics. I have introduced hundreds of fencers to the sport over the years. There is an occasional child or parent who pipe dreams like that. But by far the vast majority get into fencing because "they love swords and want to learn to fight with them". Losing access to the Olympics would be a hard marketing crush, and probably put a nail in the coffin for the fencing elite clubs/coaches, but I really don't think most grassroot clubs would even notice.

@holyknightthatpwns

4 ай бұрын

As someone who works in rock climbing, which recently became an Olympic sport, I think there was a small but clear boost for us once the games happened - even though few of the hundreds of kids I've coached have taken it seriously enough to even make it to nationals.

@russmitchellmovement

Күн бұрын

College scholarships for fencing (bc Oly sport) vs no college scholarships, otoh.... "fence hard and you could get a solid ride at school" is one of the major recruitment tools for the sport.

nice t shirt

So maybe I should switch from sabre to epee.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

i dont think this will affect you unless youre fencing at the world cup level so only do that if you can stand the monotony!

@Stilicho182

4 ай бұрын

@CyrusofChaos Sure, I'm only a club level fencer, but this hits home nonetheless. I lose points and half the time I don't even know why - refereeing seems arbitrary, which leads to frustration. Add in the fact that, as you point out, defense is at a disadvantage so most points are therefore simultaneous attacks in the box. As a result, fencing sabre seems like a futile experience - seemingly every point is ready, fence, attack, and wait for the ref to make a call that might as well be flipping a coin. I genuinely wonder why I should continue.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

@@Stilicho182 you're not wrong about that. I think foil has the best balance personally but your reasons for switching from sabre make sense

This is why I have stopped doing sabre and instead focus on epee. No right of way - all the ref has to do is determine if I hit the floor (assuming the strip isn't grounded) and make sure my equipment is legitimate..... I started in sabre and it no longer has any interest for me as a sport at all. You want to made sabre relevant again? Get rid of right of way and except for target area, use epee rules.... NOTE - I know a lot of people who do historical sabre without our modern right of way rules and it's MUCH more fun to do and to watch. Olympic sabre has become what my partner calls "tag with wands."

Can someone please explain why ROW was added to foil and sabre? The touching the blade just loud enough to be heard by the ref being called a parry drives me nuts. Maybe shorten the timings and remove ROW... and have the refs actually card people for running into each other would also be good.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

How often is people running into each other a problem in sabre?

@queenstownswords

4 ай бұрын

I have noticed an 'uptick' of people running into each other in epee and foil. But it is often ignored until it gets gratuitous. @@CyrusofChaos If you took ROW away from sabre, would fencers run into each other? Excuse my lack of experience, but the idea is to move the sport into simple, easy to follow, easy to referee, rules for all weapons.

This is the biggest reason I stopped training and focused on my career. Fortunately I'm a coach part time now and am able to help get things straight in this sport. Thank you for this video @CyrusofChaos

@CyrusofChaos

Ай бұрын

Unfortunately this is a very legitimate reason to stop training seriously... Hopefully we will get to a place where everyone feels like they have the chance to win and lose on their own merits

@NikBladeworks

Ай бұрын

@@CyrusofChaos It will take a leader and a group of people to change it. Lets make it so!

@CyrusofChaos

Ай бұрын

@@NikBladeworks 🫡

Fencing Sabre now very very Bad, only fast fast fast....

There's a very simple solution to sabre's problem. Just toss out all double light touches. Forget about right of way rules. The only way a sabre fencer can score a touch is for him to hit the other guy without getting hit himself. The takes away the subjective element from the referees. We all know half of the time they couldn't tell because the actions were so fast and they were just making stuff up anyway. This will force all the sabre fencers to actually fence to win rather than just lunging at each other as fast as they can every time.

New Jersey high school 3 weapon Team Fencing is THE most entertaining version of Fencing to watch! Easy access to understanding and engagement: total team points available is 27, the first team to 14 wins, fence all 27. The whole meet = 1 movie of time, broken into 27 episodes, 2 to 5 minutes each.

Fencing is not a ball sport, it cannot be a ball sport and it can never be scored like a ball sport. Let's not compare it to ball sports.

@Roca891

4 ай бұрын

Should it be unwatchable and completely subjective though?

@weedywet

4 ай бұрын

Yeah but it's also not supposed to be figure skating, where judging is nearly 100% subjective

@oldschooljeremy8124

4 ай бұрын

@@weedywet - 100% true. But it still isn't subject to the binary yes-no scoring of the ball sports. And lest we forget there is still subjective judgement even in the ball sports, usually revolving around penalties. Was that interference or not? Was that a foul, or not? Did they deliberately deflate the ball a little? Did he take a flop? Not like there's no room for cheating in any sport.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

@@oldschooljeremy8124 it sounds like you completely missed the point as i believe there was only one sentence about ball sports in the video. The point is there is no consensus on anything now and that is unacceptable. It takes years of watching to be able to understand the difference between attack-counterattack and attack in prep and just when you're starting to get it the interpretations change without any explanation. We can start to disambiguate these situations by coming to an understanding as a community on how these situations should be called

@oldschooljeremy8124

4 ай бұрын

@@CyrusofChaos - a consummation devoutly to be wished, but how? As always the devil is in the details, not in the broad concepts. At present - and probably always - the fencing community has no power to do anything like this, the only "consensus" is that provided by the top referee community: precisely the community which we see to be the problem.

I just beat god of war

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

Nice job dude that game is hard 🥵

Olga Kharlan was given a black card and rightfully so. She should have been a fair sport and shown respect to our sport. But I do like your video and I agree with everything you said!

@weedywet

4 ай бұрын

refusing to accept a blade tap and standing there for the sake of performance art is what was bad sportsmanship there. Not Kharlan.

@CyrusofChaos

4 ай бұрын

Sorry but you have it backwards. If you actually watched what happened it was very clear that Kharlan was trying to initiate a blade tap while her opponent stood there and refused to do anything

@jessecarlson1055

4 ай бұрын

But the rules don’t call for a blade tap, they call for a handshake, which is why she got the card.

@williamwittman8072

4 ай бұрын

The rules were interpreted as accepting a blade tap during the height of the pandemic. And Kharlan had received approval ahead of time that a tap would be acceptable here. This was staged performance art by the Russians.

@williamwittman8072

4 ай бұрын

The rules were interpreted as accepting a blade tap during the height of the pandemic. And Kharlan had received approval ahead of time that a tap would be acceptable here. This was staged performance art by the Russians.