Wow!!! This is about the best Trinitarian Vs Unitarian Debate I have ever watched and I enjoyed it a lot. Now the reason why I have rated it my best is because of the spirit and attitude these two Christian gentlemen displayed towards each other and in fact generally throughout the debate. This is not the same I see when the likes of Sam Shamoun and Anthony Rogers debate other Unitarians. I think this can be a very good model that Christians in general can learn from and even though I am a Biblical Unitarian in agreement with Sam, I would particularly like to commend Chris for the commendable spirit in which he engaged with Sam. Chris did not have that "I am right but you are a heretic" spirit you usually discern when the like of Sam Shamoun and others like him when they debate others. May the good Lord open the eyes of his saints to discern and embrace the truth. Blessed be the one and ONLY true God, the Father and his Son, our precious Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ.

These debates really help us sort out what is true and what is questionable. I believe that Biblical Unitarianism will continue to grow as we keep exploring, learning, and having debates like this.

Chris says that because the LORD says ,” I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh” Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17, Isa. 44:3 Etc.. and since the “He” meaning Jesus poured out the Spirit, thus Jesus is the LORD. If we allow the Bible to define its own terminology, this kind of approach doesn’t work very well. For example, Peter already makes a distinction between God and Jesus, but also , Jer. 17 :27 the LORD said that “I will kindle an unquenchable fire to consume the fortress of Jerusalem. Notice God said HE would do it, but God sent others to do it. Look throughout the Old Testament and God says things like, “When you hear these things, it will make your ears tingle and everyone will know I have done it.... yet the Medes, the Babylonians, Romans etc, but God specifically says that HE will kindle fire, HE will destroy it. You find this kind of thing in nearly every book of the Bible... Genesis, the Two Angels at Lots house said YHWH has sent us to destroy this place, Lot basically tells his family, “Let’s hurry up and get out of here for YHWH is about to destroy this place. I like and admire Chris Dates but this argument is easily refuted and we can multiply examples throughout the Bible where God, YHWH says HE would do something and then sends someone else to actually do the job

@joshuasmith4230

3 жыл бұрын

But the Lord IS the Spirit II Cor 3:17

@youngknowledgeseeker

3 жыл бұрын

I would add “Aaron” Moses’s brother as another example. It is said that Moses in Exodus 7:17-25, on Gods orders, put his staff that was in his hand in the water to perform a miracle. However God said right before that that he would put the staff in his own hand in the water. Aaron with a staff in his hands striking the water could be said to be God striking the water himself and himself holding that staff because Aaron was doing it on his orders and authority and doing the miracle by his power.

@aspreedacore

3 жыл бұрын

the inconsistency of trinitarianism is why it's false...

@ionutdinchitila1663

3 жыл бұрын

You are all clearly uneducated in basic Triadology. When one says "God", "Yahweh", "Savior", He can speak of either the Father, either the Son, either the Holy Spirit. He can also speak as to refer to all of them. But here's the thing: Even if he speaks about only one of them, the other 2 persons are implied, that is, they are implicitly mentioned. Since The Father is unseparable from the Son, whom He eternally begets, and the Spirit, whom He eternally spirates, and the Son from the Spirit, in whom He eternally rests, we may say: The Son is our Saviour/The Son is the only God. That does not exclude the Father and the Holy Spirit, so when we mention any person, the other 2 are mentioned implicitly. That's what Trinity is: A tri-unity. It's unity to the fullest extent. So your concern that God and Jesus are differentiated, is nothing to worry about. Since God refers to any person who has the Divine Essence, there's no problem in saying: "God and Jesus", that in no way excludes Jesus from being God. What's happening is that you have not any Early Fathers on the subject, and your knowledge of the Trinity only derives from people who themselves are confused and have not been taught basic triadology.

@aspreedacore

3 жыл бұрын

@@ionutdinchitila1663 actually even learned men have problems with the trinity such as willam Lang Craig dr bro Branson, Joshua sidjuwade etc. If only Anthony Rogers would stop running from jake the Muslim metaphysician… the one Muslim who actually knows the trinity inside and out, so-called church fathers and all he won’t debate. Anyway back onto the subject your rant does not at all deal with the first 2 previous comments, deal with the biblical examples of god saying he would do something yet someone else does it….

The man of Unitarianism I believe so far what I hear he is saying The Father is the personal what God is a creator the head the Father but he is one person/spirit his spirit is him... The Son is the messiah planned out pre-creation but is not God.

I listened to the entire debate. I think that's worthy of a patch for my theology letter jacket.

This was briefly touched on during the discussion, but I would be interested to hear a more fleshed out discussion about what is actually happening at Jesus' baptism. The Unitarian explanation seems fairly clear: God (Our Father) who is in "heaven" speaks down to Jesus (a man on earth) and sends his spirit (power) to Jesus in the form of a dove. Jesus then is then led into the wilderness by the spirit (power) of God (Our Father) to be tempted by Satan. So what is the Trinitarian explanation of these events? Is the triune God existing in Heaven while all this is happening? Is the Father the only "part" of the triune God in Heaven while this is happening? Is God the Son in Heaven while Jesus the man is on earth, or is God the Son on earth with Jesus the man. Is God the Son in both places simultaneously? Why is God the Spirit taking the form of a dove? Why would a person of God take the form of an animal? Also, why does God the Spirit need to lead Jesus and/or God the Son into the wilderness. Does one person of God need to lead another person of God? Also, since God the Spirit conceived Jesus in Mary's womb, it's weird that he? isn't claiming Jesus as his son or speaking in this situation. Perhaps he cannot speak since he is a dove?

Married couples are never called "one being." That is why they are called a married "couple." The Bible does say that the married couple "shall become" one flesh, in the sexual union, as Paul makes clear in I Corinthians chapter 7. They are "one/eis" flesh in the sense that, during that union, they are physically linked and share pleasures that God designed to be rightfully shared from this conjugation/linking. We are "one/en," with God and Jesus and they are "one/en" with each other. But that is a different "one." It means "united" or "unity" and cannot be defined as "one Being" any more than we are called "one Being" with them or with those we marry. See John 17 where we are also "one," in this sense, with God and Christ, as they are "one" with each other. See Matthew 19:5, Mark 12:29 and John 17:21 about the differences, in the Greek, between the two ones and their meanings. Compare "εἷς/number "one" with "ἓν/ a unity or united," in these passages.

The trinity is paganism. God is one.

@hudsontd7778

3 жыл бұрын

1 John 5:7

@JudeOne3Four

3 жыл бұрын

@@hudsontd7778 1 John 5:7 is a well known Trinitarian corruption

@hudsontd7778

3 жыл бұрын

did a Muslim tell you that? Please name these Scholars that told you that 1 John 5:7 is corrupted, then would please explain why on earth you believe them?

@turntogod4410

3 жыл бұрын

@@hudsontd7778 it's not in any manuscript. You can verify that yourself. Therefore it arrives from thin air and not from manuscriptal evidence which is THE BIBLE

@hudsontd7778

3 жыл бұрын

@@turntogod4410 who told you that?

Chris, we are called to humble ourselves to God. How can you say humility can only be towards an ontological equal? That's completely arbitrary. Pride is seen as disobeying God. Humility is obeying God. Of course we are humble when we obey God. So was Jesus.

At time 1:22:00 Sam asks “When you say ‘God he’ or ‘God himself’, who are you talking about?” Seems Chris is trekking a new trail and trying to feel his way through

I challenge you to a debate on the trinity

1 Corinthians 8:4-7☝️📖 "...there is none other God but One. For though there be that are called gods, But to us there is but one God, the Father, Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge..."

Philippians 2:5-8 is probably the most interesting passage to exegete. However, since it is probably the most disputed, you certainly don’t establish a Christological foundation based on it. Philippians 2:5-8 is interpreted to coincide with an already presupposed Christology. In other words, you make the best argument you can for it. So it becomes an “iron sharpened iron” exercise 😉

Chris: “The fact that the Holy Spirit isn’t worshipped in the scriptures is not a problem for Trinitarians” The problem I see with this statement is that the scripture tells us in no uncertain terms who we are to worship: YHWH. No prophet in Israel ever worshipped the spirit and these men were endowed with the spirit. I find it unthinkable that they viewed the Holy Spirit as a distinct person and co-equal deity but reserved all their worship for YHWH alone. Yeshua is not YHWH, but is the son of YHWH. Ignatius, if you believe his letters are authentic, is the odd ball when compared to his contemporaries. For Clement of Rome, Jesus is a human being, just like Peter preached in Acts 2. Justin Martyr admits that many orthodox Christians of his time (circa 150 AD) hold Jesus to be a man. This most assuredly reveals a progressive christology.

@arold4928

2 жыл бұрын

Jesus is the right arm of God the Father. His Word that always reveals the Father, the Fathers manifestation. You should read John 16:25-30

So because they are outside time they are one God but if they were in them they would be three God's? If God would have said "I am three" I'd get it but it doesn't. The trinity is puzzle pieced

I think it a mistake to focus on Philippians 2 as a crucial text to inform Christological views. A much more relevant text would be Matthew 16, answering the explicit question: “Who do you say I am?” Notice that Peter’s answer is not tied to ontological concerns, but Messianic. For Peter, Jesus is the promised descendant of David: “You are YHWH’s Anointed One - the son of the Living God.” Perhaps most revealing in this statement is what he does not say. Peter doesn’t think Jesus is YHWH. Peter thinks Jesus is YHWH’s anointed king, just like Gabriel announced to Mary in Luke 1. The silence of these passages on the deity of Jesus is glaringly apparent.

It never ceases to amaze me how close some people get to understanding the truth but miss the mark. Unitarians are correct that there is only one God and not three persons in one, as Trinitarians believe. But where Unitarians go bonkers is making the claim that Yeshua never existed before he was born in the flesh. This is complete utter crap when Yeshua clearly stated that before Abraham was born, he (Yeshua) existed. He also stated that he was returning to the father. He wouldn't be returning unless he came from heaven. Finally, he also stated that he was with the father in the beginning of the creation. I dumped religion years ago when it was clear that ALL of it, without exception, is nothing more than man-made institutions and the fabrication of men's own understanding.

@gsharpslayer3287

3 жыл бұрын

There are many Unitarians that do believe in Christ preexistence, that would be one major thing they discuss within their own circles(if you can find them) I agree, religious institutions can be a lucrative business and they love to tell you how to think and how to understand everything....kinda like your nosey neighbor. Do you prescribe to a philosophy or anything now or just reject it all?

@SnoopyDoofie

3 жыл бұрын

@@gsharpslayer3287 My philosophy is to live life as though today is going to be your last day. Do something with your life to make the world a better place and leave behind something that will improve the lives of those coming after you.

@gsharpslayer3287

3 жыл бұрын

@@SnoopyDoofie yea that type of thinking really does put the important things first, and i really don’t know what I would do if it was my last day even though i have had some close calls in the past couple months which has made me doubt everything i ever knew. I sign on to that, and a Unitarian type of theology as well personally. Cheers snoopy

@turntogod4410

3 жыл бұрын

There is no issue here. Trinitarians have just beat over people’s head that pre existence is literal or individual. Jesus always preexisted in God’s mind, the context will show you that. The notion that Jesus preexisted as a divine person with God comes from the statement “Before Abraham was I am” which only explains he preexisted. His type of persistence is only explained in a way where he existed in the mind and purpose of God and never as a separate divine person with the Father. This is clearly shown when the Bible says Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Does that mean he was eternally slain? Yes but not in the way Trinitarians see that Jesus was eternally begotten. A Trinitarian reading (if we apply it the same way they apply that Jesus was eternally begotten) would mean Jesus was slain from eternity past and was literally crucified since the beginning of time (similar to catholic doctrine of transubstantiation that when drinking wine you are drinking Jesus’ literal blood) a unitarian reading would be that the inevitable outcome of Christ (him being slain) was eternal.

@gsharpslayer3287

3 жыл бұрын

@@turntogod4410 I think Christ definitely could have pre existed in a literal sense rather than pre existing as an idea which doesn’t make sense if you believe in Gods all knowing ness then everything is pre existent What is a good argument against Christ existing literally before Abraham? Why take those verses figurative instead of literal? To me when people say “pre existed in the mind of god”, I really don’t see that at all in there. Literal pre existence is plainly written in the text while “Pre existence in the mind” is an interpretation of the text just like the trinity is an interpretation of text passages.

I wanna debate trinitys

@TorahObservantUnitarian

2 жыл бұрын

How do you answer to when Jesus says before Abraham was I am

@StandOnScripture

2 жыл бұрын

@@TorahObservantUnitarian call in to my show im doing a topic at 8 then i will be taking call ins ask me then

@TorahObservantUnitarian

2 жыл бұрын

@@StandOnScripture ok what's your number

@TorahObservantUnitarian

2 жыл бұрын

@rookerman no

Two Gods Hebrews 1:9 KJV Two Gods Genesis 19:24 KJV

Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name, and what is his Son’s name? Surely you know! Jesus quotes 2Esdras. 2 Esdras 2:42-48 42. I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great multitude, which I could not number, and they all were praising the Lord with songs. 43. In their midst was a Young Man of great stature, taller than any of the others, and on the head of each of them he placed a crown, but he was more exalted than they. And I was held spellbound. 44. Then I asked an angel, “Who are these, my lord?” 45. He answered and said to me, “These are they who have put off mortal clothing and have put on the immortal, and they have👉 confessed the name of God; now they are being crowned, and receive palms.” 46.Then I said to the angel, “Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?” 47.He answered and said to me, 🫴“He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world.” So I began to praise those who had stood valiantly for the name of the Lord. 48. Then the angel said to me, “Go, tell my people how great and many are the wonders of the Lord God which you have seen.” John 17:4-6 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. “I have manifested👉Your Name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. John 5:43 I have come in my 👉Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my 👉Father's name bear witness about me, JESUS was called Son-of-Man a grand total of 88 times in the New Testament AND was our Saviors "own" favorite self-designated title. Enoch was in circulation hundreds of years, "before" Jesus the son of man stepped on the Israel scene, and probably why in a lot of circles he was accepted AND received in Dead Sea Scroll's ⭐Enoch 46: 1-6 -1.And there I saw One who had a head of days, And His head was white like wool, And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of a man, And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. -2.And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning that -3. Son-o-f Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This is the son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness, And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden. -4. And this Son of Man whom thou hast seen shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats, and the strong from their thrones and shall loosen the reins of the strong, and break the teeth of the sinners. -5.And he shall put down the kings from their thrones and kingdoms because they do not extol and praise Him, nor humbly acknowledge whence the kingdom was bestowed upon them. -6.And he shall put down the countenance of the strong, and shall fill them with shame. [🎯Daniel 7:13-14. “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a 💡Son-of-Man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to 👉Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."🌠] [Jesus/Son-of-Man/Lamb is presented to: Ancient-Old/God-of-Spirits, after leaving his Apostles on a cloud in Galilee.] ⭐-Enoch 48: 2-6 -2. And at that hour that Son-of-Man was named in the presence of the "Lord-of-Spirits", and his name before the Head of Days. -3.Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of Spirits. [JOHN 17:5] -4.He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the 💡"light of the Gentiles, and the hope of those who are troubled of heart. -5.All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, and will praise and bless and celebrate with song, The Lord-of-Spirits. -6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for evermore. [Isaiah 49💡I will also make You a light of the nations, So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.” John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the 💡light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.] ⭐Enoch 62: 1-3 -1.And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, and said: Open your eyes and lift up your horns if Ye are able to recognize the 💡Elect One. -2.And the Lord of Spirits seated Him on the Throne of His glory, and the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him, and the word of his mouth slays all the sinners, and all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face. -3.And there shall stand up in that day all the kings and the mighty, and the exalted and those who hold the earth, and they shall see and recognize How he sits on the throne of his glory, and righteousness is judged before him, and no lying word is spoken before him. -4.Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail, [and she has pain in bringing forth] when her child enters the mouth of the womb, and she has pain in bringing forth. -5.And one portion of them shall look on the other, and they shall be terrified, and they shall be downcast of countenance, and pain shall seize them, when they see 💡"that Son-of-Man" Sitting on the throne of his glory. -6.And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden. -7.For from the beginning 'the Son-of-Man was hidden", and the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might, and revealed him to the elect. [Isaiah 49:2.He has made My mouth like a sharp sword, In the 🫴"Shadow of His hand", He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a sharpened arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver.] -8.And the congregation of the elect and holy shall be sown, and all the elect shall stand before him on that day. -9.And all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and those who rule the earth shall fall down before him on their faces, and worship and set their hope upon that Son of Man, and petition him and supplicate for mercy at his hands. We we're grafted into a Messianic & Monotheistic ancient religion, we were meant to assimilate in, why pretend Enoch/Esdras "quoted by Messiah Y'eshua...doesn't exist? AND it's a rational functioning hierarchy, Messiah Yeshua pull the rank and let them know he was the son inheriting his Vineyard, same authority entitlement, just like Prince William and King Charles. What's the confusion, neither apostles nor early church father's sought need to invent a Trinity nor mention any such thing. BOTH... Trinitarians AND Biblical Unitarians are blind to THE "OLIVE BRANCH"! Less than 2% of Jews are even Christians...