Audiophile people: "I can hear it, therefore it's real". Also audiophile people: "I don't do blind tests".

A null test will absolutely show EM interference. As long as you’re using a power cable on a piece of equipment that’s in the chain that you’re measuring. Paul, come on man. This isn’t ok.

@axymoulm

4 ай бұрын

I agree! And I would be curious to hear what kind of difference he's speaking about if not from the 'electrical difference'.

@fartpooboxohyeah8611

Ай бұрын

@@axymoulm It's "magic!".. he can't explain it, but that's why his gear is outrageously expensive! Just trust him....

After spending much time as a soundman for a local band, I can assure you, ears easily play tricks on you. They lie like crazy. Your other senses also get in on the trickery. Preconceived notions and bias run amok. I recall tweaking the EQ one night. It started off sounding terrible. But after about 10 minutes I had the band sounding great. Then I noticed that the EQ section was not even engaged. I had litterly been doing nothing. Yet I heard HUGE differences. Lol. So I'm going to side with Ethan. His data is much more valid than what your ears supposedly hear.

@mikevincent6332

2 жыл бұрын

Brilliant! and if engineering expertise and test equipment accounted for nothing it would be impossible to design and build any piece of Hi Fi equipment. No amps and no Hi Fi gear would exist full stop. You must start out with the best engineering and testing possible. An amp I have been designing for 7 years never had a speaker connected to it until recently, when my test equipment told me it was the best it could be. If I had connected a speaker earlier and paid less attention to my test gear I would likely have fooled myself into thinking it was already good enough

I don't have an opinion on Winer's test, but I now have an opinion of Paul's comments. If shielding matters, it must be understood that shielding vs. unshielded is an electrical difference and then is an "infallible" test for the null test. If adding shielding really works or is really necessary in many situations, the null test will show it. So...., the objection to a null test is not articulated much at all. Certainly the topic of shielding does not clarify the question AT ALL. On the topic of a reactive and complex load, Carver addressed it in his null test. It is easy to account for that in a null test because it is an electrical difference. The only things that is not covered by the null test are the magical properties of audiophile products.

Every time someone tells that a 1,5 meter power cord affect sound, an engineer dies.

@wisetank135

3 жыл бұрын

It could. What an engineer can test might not reflect all the factors , did you think about that?

@wisetank135

3 жыл бұрын

I can give you a easy example, people like different kind of coffees, if the scientists cannot totally tell the difference between 2 coffee beans and they still taste different, do you think people are dumb with their taste or scientist are dumb with their data or scientific test is not developed enough? I mean is it too hard to understand? Human being can't manufacture efficient enough battery yet, don't be too cocky with your electric test.

@585585MC

3 жыл бұрын

@@wisetank135 What you say in your example is false: the world is made of chemistry and physics and can always be analyzed. If you put the two coffee beans of your example under a mass spectrometer, you will see that they are chemically different, this gives them a different flavor. Any "scientist" would be able to prove it. The real problem is that some people fail to accept that they are human and victims of bias and placebo effect.

@johnholmes912

3 жыл бұрын

@@585585MC you cannot measure subjective quantities directly; furthermore there is no linear relationship between an objectve quantity and its related subjective quantity

@585585MC

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnholmes912 that is the thin air formula.

All of those "non-electrical" differences you have described all sound very electrical to me.

How do you transmit sound through copper/aluminum cables? BY ELECTRICITY. The null test is valid ALWAYS. WTF is the point of this video? Are you denying the laws of physics? I was hoping you will "surprise" me with something like "null test in DAW is working in the digital domain, so it always works, but in the analog domain it is not true anymore". Which of course is not true as well, but at least it has some partial logic in its statement, to begin with. (when you have no idea how digital-to-analog conversion part is working because when you know it, you'll not use it as an argument!!!)

Last August I challenged Paul to a video debate we'd record over Skype, then post here on KZread. At first he agreed, but later he reneged. So I decided to create this public challenge, and I bet the audio community will agree this would be a great show for all to enjoy. A lot of people have already commented on KZread they'd like to see this debate! kzread.info/dash/bejne/aKZ2lLlppdDKoZM.html

@joshpeters7392

5 жыл бұрын

Is it possible that you're both correct? In part, I agree with Ethan.... No, I don't think that a 20k interconnect is going to make a big difference over a well built, properly shielded $30-$50 cable. But having said that, I do agree with some other videos that Paul has posted that speak more to interference causing an issue (which, I have absolutely heard and have had to move power cables away from speaker cables to rectify the issue....) In Paul's case, I wonder if a better shielded cable can make something sound better/ eliminate that distortion/ buzz/ hum. I think it would be interesting to see Ethan move poorly shielded power cables close to only one of the two line sources in the null test and see if a difference could then be measured. Does the null test address that possibility? Either way, I respect the hell out of both of you and appreciate you both educating people and putting out a lot of useful information.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

@@joshpeters7392 Yes, I did all that in my Null Tester video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/jK2L1pWkcbGnY7Q.html

@geoff37s38

4 жыл бұрын

McGowan is not an audio engineer, he is a salesman. His aim is to appear to be an expert to audio enthusiasts who lack in depth technical knowledge. Unfortunately, much of his advice is just plain wrong and will persuade some to waste their money on snake oil. McGowan will not agree to the Ethan Winer challenge as he knows this will expose his BS. Similarly, he will not take the Mark Waldrep challenge on so called hi-res audio for the same reason. Spreading mis-information is damaging to the entire audio industry.

@EthanWiner

4 жыл бұрын

@@geoff37s38 I totally agree that spreading misinformation damages us all.

Firstly if you hear differences in power cables you can only be mistaken. It isn't possible. Yes, the null test does prove the signal is identical in both cables tested and therefore identical in terms of performance.

Fruedian slip..."is it infallible? Well yeah, sure it's infallible...or..." LOL!!! C'mon Paul, I'm sure you're a nice guy and sincere in your opinions, but if the null test enabled Carver to duplicate another amp's sound...EXACTLY...then everything you're claiming about the immeasurability of how cables, power supplies, etc affect high fidelity audio is moonshine. Had the Carver experiment failed, then you might have an argument, but he succeeded based solely on measurements...which renders the claim of "intangibles" or "immeasurables" wishful thinking.

@prep74

4 жыл бұрын

Too right, surely Paul cannot be unaware of the Carver challenge way back in the 1980s? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver

@f430ferrari5

3 жыл бұрын

@WMalven - you are really missing a lot. This NULL test being performed is done in a certain specific surrounding and condition. Yes? Just because Carver duplicated another amp’s sound EXACTLY doesn’t mean Paul’s point about cables and power supplies is moonshine per you. It mind boggles me how people even draw these conclusions. Your comment has been here for one year also and 1 response. 10 likes too. Here is my point. I was already thinking this before Paul stated in his video. He explains electricity running through a cable and maybe one is more expensive and one is not. So just because a NULL doesn’t pick up any difference doesn’t mean all cables are equal. Winer appears to be taking a stand of don’t buy into the moonshine or snake oil. Yes? Well here are two important factors being left out and Paul at least touches on one of them: 1. Paul says what about noise interference. Just because a NULL test showed exact same output or whatever please note that this was done and performed in a certain surrounding and environment. Yes? What Bob Carver would need to do is prove it sounds the same in every single household/surrounding. Every house/room is different. Every house has different appliances that can introduce noise. Paul stated some cables are shielded better than others. Yes? 2. Here is the other point that not even sure Paul mentions. Things deteriorate and degrade over time. Yes? So just because Carver did something. How long of a period of time was that? Is the test proven over 10 years? 20 years? Even tubes are replaced. Cables degrade over time also. I’m not one to believe more expensive cables last longer either. Some just have the money to spend. I heard silver cables sound great but they degrade quickly. If you can’t hear a noticeable difference then no worries.

Y’all. Electricity is electricity; so long as the cable is short, it’s shielded decently, and it’s gauged properly, you’ll be fine. The difference between cable A and B is just cost and placebo. Now, if spending a lot of money on your cables is your thing and you think it sounds better, by all means go for it. But you’ve got miles of stock power cable running from the power plant, then even more from your distribution box, and then that goes into the wire in your house and that feeds into your outlet. You can put a $200 cable in that outlet, but even if it’s a superconductor, one and a half meters of cable won’t change the properties of miles. Coming out from your receiver, you can put $400 speaker cables, but the wire going into and out from the crossover is most likely just 16 gauge no-name copper wire. That’s my rant

@dmptcb

2 жыл бұрын

U are so correct all these audiophiles love to test everything but u never hear them do a blind sound test and everyone has a different room there stereo is in and the size of the room and what format they are using can’t we just enjoy the sound we have ? But I know one thing I’ll put my 57 dollar 100 feet roll of speaker wire up against there 1000 dollar plus wire any day and no one will tell me there is a difference in the sound PERIOD

So if it's not electrical then what is it? Magic?

@Coneman3

3 жыл бұрын

EMF or RMI.

@Geopholus

3 жыл бұрын

Gurra Tell EXACTLY ! EMI or RFI, are Electromagnetic Interference (like what comes from a wall wart), and and Radio Frequency Interference, both are well worn parts of electrical theory and practice, going back to James Clerk Maxwell, and Michael Faraday, Nikola Tesla, etc etc, for well over 150 years. They ARE ELECTRICAL Phenomena. As I have said elsewhere , if they are a source of problems in Your system, they can be easily included in Your null test. Connect a RFI noise source to an antenna (rabbit ears), or loopstick antenna (depending on frequency range), and subject both cables to that signal, A Wall wart of a few watts is a great source of EMI, Your cell phone is a pretty good source of RFI. Also ! most Hi End audio equipment filters out RFI, by using ground or chassis shields, chokes, filter caps, and bypass caps in the power supply. Newer equipment usually has a dedicated RFI filter at the point where AC power enters the power supply.. EMI can get into signal wires, but not from it's own power supply ! ! !, because the power supply itself uses the AC power to produce a Huge electromagnetic field (IT HAS TO BE THERE) which is where the voltage and current for secondary of the transformer and then the rectified portion of the circuit comes from. That is FILTERED OUT by the transformer shield, power diodes, and filter caps, and possibly chokes and low pass filters (and maybe regulated supply if the device has one). Signal wires can pick up EMI, from external sources like an unshileded motor or transformer (that is why RCA cables are shielded, and XLR cables use differential pairs (and are also shielded) (which are NULL summed by the input transformer or electronic equivalent (differential amp) So an XLR cable with input coupling ITSELF is a NULLING circuit used mostly to cancel EMI..

@chriscuthbertson

3 жыл бұрын

@@Geopholus When my neighbor cooks popcorn in their microwave my $100 soundbar sounds amazing... when they stop it goes back to sounding like shit. Do you think cables will help? ;)

@MrsZambezi

2 жыл бұрын

@@Coneman3 Nope. It's delusion.

@Justwantahover

2 жыл бұрын

When I crank it up to 10 with no signal I can't hear a thing @ 6" from the speaker. So even less audible from 10 ft away. Yes I can just hear hiss from 2" away but that would (most likely) be the cheap Samsung tablet used as a source that is causing it (not the Audiolab amp). lol I use standard $1 per meter speaker cable from Jaycar (Aust). If the cable is picking up stuff does that mean we maybe can hear it...or does it just change the quality of the signal? With my really cheap amp I do hear stuff though (in the same cranked scenario, even radio voices). lol The cheap straight integrated amp picks up radio!...But it's so faint that you have to put your ear 2" from the speaker (cranked to 10). So instead of spending AU $1,800 on cables I spent it on an amp (@ 110 db s/n ratio). It picks up radio too...but with the "Play" mode (and it's louder). lol

Ethan’s demos have been with interconnects, which 1) are not interacting with a reactive load, and 2) would each have equal exposure to EMR/RFI. So I’m still looking for a reason why his published interconnect test is not correct.

@genez429

5 жыл бұрын

For one reason.... Some can hear obvious differences with our own systems. What puzzles me? Is what the heck is he listening with?! Can he, and those like him, have a an audio equivalent to color blindness? He just can not perceive certain things that others can?

@phomchick

5 жыл бұрын

@@genez429 you should watch the video that started all of this: kzread.info/dash/bejne/jK2L1pWkcbGnY7Q.html There is no listening involved or needed. It is a test bench exercise, but as Paul McGowan points out in his video, it will absolutely tell you if two electrical signals are identical. Winer's video compares two interconnect cables, and concludes that there is no difference between the cheap and expensive cables he tested.

@Woofy-tm8si

5 жыл бұрын

Testing a cable sitting by itself on a bench top is laughable, because a cable sitting all by itself is then physically separated from all the major environmental factors that have significant impact how a particular cable performs. A cable's shielding and the quality of terminations to ensure shield integrity make a huge difference in performance when the cable is enmired in the electromagnetic and radio frequency cesspool of tangled cables all mashed together at the back of a rack or cabinet, you know, where cables are usually found. And that goes double when your next door neighbor is a ham radio enthusiast or you're living in high density urban housing. Both environments play hell with audio systems. Purity of copper is important as well, but not nearly as important as good shielding in my experience.

@phomchick

5 жыл бұрын

@Woofy 98102 A test bench is far more likely to have stray RFI and other electromagnetic radiation than a home stereo. Ethan's video does talk about the importance of shielding and demonstrates how hum picked up by one wire but not the other will show in the null test. So, your objection has already been covered. It's nice, however, to see a cable fan claiming that the claimed differences are solely due to differences in shielding and grounding, rather than exotic construction or magic materials.

@genez429

5 жыл бұрын

@@phomchick Then not all cables measure the same evidently. Because not all sound the same. A good number may sound the same. But, Ethan makes it sound like all cables do measure the same. If not? Why is he so set on proving they do?

Anything done by humans is fallible, but Paul should take Ethan's challenge. If he doesn't, he will forever lack my full trust. Some months ago, I was asked to perform a modification on a perfectly decent Denon receiver so that an oily snake of a PS Audio power cord could be attached to it. What the hell? It would make me money. I even used extra-heavy wire between the IEC connector I installed and the two puny square pins on the circuit board inside, just to maintain the spirit of the concept so that the customer would have no way to fault the mod as performed. But tell me --- since the primary of the power transformer is of a smaller gauge wire than the cord, and the wires in the walls of the house are not the same grade as the cord, Is There Not A Disconnect Of Thought Here? Really, would it not be necessary to have the same kind and size of wire all the way from the distribution transformer on the pole continuing through the transformer in the receiver in order for there to be any benefit? Claims about wire and cables making a HUGE difference can be dismissed on logic alone, and no legitimate listening test will ever prove otherwise.

@RandyShirley

5 жыл бұрын

Did you listen, before and after?

@FooBar89

4 жыл бұрын

Randy Shirley did YOU listen, using a double blind abx test?

I must admit that Paul is a good storyteller... :P

@j.m.w.5064

4 жыл бұрын

@Luka StembergerI like hearing him talk. I do. But there never is a clear answer. Nor an explanation to why a question can't be answered. It just remains nebulous. I'm ticked off by comments stating how much they would learn by listening to him.

@Coneman3

3 жыл бұрын

He tells nice stories, like a friendly Uncle 😂

@afterdark1959

2 жыл бұрын

"Nebulous" keeps the business going. But all this "updated" cables and stuff they cost more than a car they don't do much over the medium level items. Physics and chemistry work till one point after it's just "nebulous". So we watch appreciate the story and keep researching. :))

Paul, You don't really address the topic. Ethan is talking about comparing two cables with the same signal going through both. If one signal subtracts from the other and there are no artifacts, the two signals are the same. If You wanted to do an honest test of the type of problem You are proposing , rather than referring to "all kinds of Crazy stuff" or "garbage coming out of the wall", You would simply apply an external RFI field to both cables, and see if any artifacts leaked into the cable, which would be clear because the two cables would no longer null perfectly. Ethan is really referring to signal carrying cables rather than power cables, but it doesn't matter, that much, because signal wires can even more easily pick up RFI., ( and most decent power supplies on high end audio equipment filter out RFI). Which is better? a cable with high capacitance between the internal conductor and the shield, or one with low capacitance? Depending on how high the capacitance, and how long the cable run, a cable with high capacitance, and a very long run, feeding into a low impedance input from a high impedance output device, can attenuate high audio frequencies. For me, the best option would be test the wire, and eliminate RFI appropriately,... that could be done with shielding, or it could be a an RFI filter or putting all equipment in something like a Faraday box, in terms of blocking RFI. As far as speakers interacting with an amp, I can see that, and there are specific measures of that, but electrically identical wires would behave exactly the same way, If You don't believe it, just compare the two signals fed down the two electrically identical, (but somehow not the same ?) wires, from the speaker termination, into a null tester. QED.

@ilovecops6255

4 жыл бұрын

RFI is Radio Frewqunece Insertions. NULL means someoneting undefined. It is NOT zerl

@Coneman3

3 жыл бұрын

Note in Ethans Null test there was not 0 difference. Then the assumption the difference was negligible. This is where errors are possible in his theory. Also, consider this. Imagine 10 minor tweaks which are not in themselves noticeable, but when combined do result in a very small noticeable difference. That is probably how a lot of hiend system’s work. Dealing with one thing in a chain in isolation is not the best way to assess a system.

@Geopholus

3 жыл бұрын

@@Coneman3 Not zero difference ? Null means zero, then still no detectable signal, just the background noise due to amplification , after 80 db of gain. 1 part in more than ten million, and You think there still may be something hiding in that empirical emptiness?

@Geopholus

3 жыл бұрын

@@ilovecops6255 SQL programming language is not the same as Plain English or Hi End Audio Jabberwockey. Null means to electronics people that two signals cancel out (or result in Zero) at a node where the business in discussion is happening. The nulling principle has been a key to electronics engineering from its inception.

@ilovecops6255

3 жыл бұрын

@@Geopholus SOrry to tell you n tu your are wrongs... operator SQL inserting NULL values Last update on February 26 2020 08:07:43 (UTC/GMT +8 hours) Inserting NULL values The SQL INSERT statement can also be used to insert NULL value for a column. Example: Ada hags better exception hanbdling than Java, c, c++ and FORTRANS, sOMEOEN HAS BEEN LIEIGN TO YOU. stAY FAR FARE AWAY FROMT THEMS!!!!!!!

Im not into buying super expensive cables or anything, but then again, I dont listen to music with an o scope either.

Paul, Paul, Paul. If a difference isn't electrical? What other kind of difference is there? Including noise picked up from shielded -vs- unshielded cables. A null test will catch these diffs too.

Why would a world famous recording engineer, be happy to use a lawnmower extension lead at a hi-fi show. He did because they had enough copper on them, and they worked with Quad electrostatics.

I'm surprised by Paul McGowan's argument here, because the entire thing rests on a false assertion, at 4:50 in the video, that the null test can detect "electrical" differences but not "other" differences. But this "other" kind of difference turns out to be EMI, which is of course an electrical factor just as much as any other. And Ethan Winer's test explicitly takes that into account: If EMI/hum rejection were different between two cables, then the hum would show up in the null test, which it does not. The null test measures the difference between whatever electrical signal is presented by each cable as it enters the null tester - the null tester doesn't care whether or not that electrical signal originated from the source music player or signal generator on the one hand, or whether that electrical signal originated from outside EMI penetrating through the cable's shielding on the other hand. It makes no difference - and Paul McGowan knows that, or should know it. It's a shocking level of ignorance, or else a shocking level of bad faith in his argumentation.

@Paulmcgowanpsaudio

5 жыл бұрын

Let's look at it from another angle other than my short video. The null test would only be valid at the output of the system. To do that you'd need a microphone and careful recording out the results. Then, the files could be examined for any differences which would have to exist since we hear a difference (or not, depending on who you listen to). But, in any case, you need to test the system, not the individual component in a semi-vacuum as Winer is doing. Further, you'd have to start with a known system that qualified listeners can heard differences. I doubt Ethan has such a system since I am told he listens on rather vintage equipment. But, perhaps that's inaccurate information. Whatever the case, the true test is to take a known system and record the actual output through speakers. If qualified listeners repeatedly hear a difference between cables within that system then a null test comparing the two recorded files will show it. If not, then I agree it doesn't exist. I speculated it was EMI. That could be inaccurate for sure. Doesn't matter. My point is still valid. You can't judge a system from a single piece of gear within it. That's not what we do. We listen to single chains within a system and thus, this is how it too must be measured.

@mrubengmail

5 жыл бұрын

@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thank you for your reply - I appreciate you taking the time, truly. First - and I sincerely don't mean this in an uncivil way - I would suggest it's more productive to reply directly to the logic of my comment (since my comment replied directly to the logic of the video) before coming at the issue from a different angle. But putting that aside, the null test only claims to be valid when measuring the two interconnects, and so the output of the system, from a transducer (speaker), and then recorded into another transducer (microphone), is irrelevant and would not in fact have anything to do with null-testing the interconnects. Now, if you want to null-test how various interconnects behave when attached to various resistive loads, I agree with you that that would be interesting and useful - but the methodology of Winer's null test could do that too. With respect, your "we'd need to record the system's output" claim in your above comment is simply another way of asserting that when comparing the sonics of interconnects there is something that is (A) electrical and objective enough to be measurable but also (B) not quite objective and electrical enough to be measurable with the null test. To me it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Unfortunately, his null test shows that you cannot rule out confirmation bias and other psychoacoustic factors when making claims that different interconnects sound different (assuming we're talking about interconnects of relatively short distances, designed to a baseline level of quality0.

@Paulmcgowanpsaudio

5 жыл бұрын

@@mrubengmail I tried to address the logic of your argument and didn't do a very good job. My apologies. Perhaps I go too far too quick. The fact that a null test compares the electrical output of the two interconnects through the amplifier is interesting and valid in a vacuum. That's hard to argue and I wouldn't attempt to. But it doesn't help explain the differences we hear. What I am trying to suggest is that if the goal is to explain or even to prove that the use of different interconnects within a system produces an audible difference, then Winer's test itself is incomplete. Think of it in broader terms. Why? Because his argument does: based on a narrow focus electrical test within a complex system a broad conclusion is generated. How is that logical? One of the reasons I refuse to debate Winer is he isn't seeking the truth. If he were he'd have to take the system into consideration. Imagine a scenario where a claim is made and then investigators try to duplicate the claim under controlled conditions to prove or disprove the claim. The first requisite of proof is to faithfully duplicate the circumstances. That has not been done. For example, if we were to take an older amplifier like a Crown DC300A-once the darling of the pro industry-and insert the amplifier into a system and then perform the same test where we exchange interconnects to see if trained listeners can discern a difference, the results would likely be no. They cannot. An amplifier of this nature would be hard pressed to do little enough sonic damage to serve our purposes. Confirming we can't hear differences on such a setup in a null test would also be meaningless. The only valid test is of the system. This is why I would insist if someone's actually interested in proving something that you first duplicate the system. Then, find a way to measure and compare differences within that system that are repeatable. I suggested one way that makes sense. Perhaps there are others.

@mrubengmail

5 жыл бұрын

@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Again, thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply - I know you have a lot of time demands and I do appreciate it. That said, I think the flaw in your logic is stated quite clearly in your post: You begin with a conviction that differences you hear must be the result of objectively measurable differences in interconnects. If you have a hypothesis about what not-yet-measured factor could cause such a difference, then you should share it. My point in my prior two comments here is that so far you have not done so: in the video, you posit a factor that you claim is not accounted for in Winer's test, but which in fact is accounted for, explicitly, in both the design of his test and in what he shows us in his video. If you don't agree with Winer that the interconnects he tested do in fact transmit the same thing (down to -100dB) to an amplifier, then the proper response is not to refuse to debate him, but rather to hypothesize the missing factor, which you have not yet done. Until that happens, the only known sources of a perceived difference in this particular situation (interconnects that null out when compared to each other) is (A) variations in the cables that might manifest during certain variable resistive load situations, or (B) confirmation bias and other pscyhoachoustic factors on the part of listeners, particularly if those listeners are not listening in a double-blind test.

@andershammer9307

4 жыл бұрын

@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Yes measure they system at the speakers and then change the cable. Many differences are related to frequency response changes.

I tend to ask people: In which plane would you like to cross the Atlantic? The one engineered by Paul or the one build by Ethan? I think Paul's would be very comfortable with expensive seats and great finish but I'm not sure I would reach my destination. Here's a very simple and effective nulltest for power cables. Fire up a DAW in your PC and generate a sweep say 20-80k Save the file. Connect a PsAudio (or any other expensive) power cable to the same PC and generate another sweep, exactly the same as the first one. Now, load both sweeps and invert phase on one and look at the results. @Paul: Care to make a small video with such a test that shows us your findings? I wouldn't say that I'll buy one of your power cables but at least this would put an end to the endless discussions between believers and non-believers. For ones, act as an engineer, and leave the salesman behind in this little test, you owe it to the audio community.

Here is a really good test for an interconnect cable. If you have a preamplifier, amplifier, or a receiver with a tape output and a tape monitor input connect the two with interconnect wire. Switch the tape monitor switch between source and monitor. The switch opens and closes a shunt. If you hear any difference between the two get rid of the cables unless you like the distortion they create. No $1 Radio Shack cable I tried ever failed this test. The do exactly what they are supposed to.

@FooBar89

4 жыл бұрын

Mark Fischer no, that won’t work, you need a double blind abx test

This seems like a pretty simple topic to put to bed: BLIND TESTING. The test subjects don't know which power cable or speaker cable they're listening to. I enjoy the video clips from the audiophiles, but one who was mentioned at the beginning of this clip BY NAME, has posted a video entitled something like, "Every once in a while your system sounds perfect". So you left for work yesterday and came home and listened to a favorite track - it sounded okay. You come home the next day, listen to the same track, with the same equipment, in the same environment and it now sounds "perfect". What changed? PERCEPTION. Things like your mood, how your day went, what beverage you happen to be enjoying at the moment, etc. The fact that our brains fool us in this way has been extremely well documented.

@MrsZambezi

2 жыл бұрын

There's no point in blind testing power cables. That's stupid testing.

Personally i'd rather listen to someone who has some kind of authority on the subject, perhaps someone who has a degree in advanced physics in electricity/sound if there is such a thing.

Best explained by Daniel Kahneman. in his book Thinking Fast & Slow specifically " The illusion of Validity "

So you say the null test meter is falllable but your ears are not. your mistake is you take your opinion as a fact. This is a common problem with the believers.

@greganikin7003

5 жыл бұрын

That's pretty much how any religion works

@vladg5216

4 жыл бұрын

Your ears are a way more sensitive instrument than any measuring device currently used to measure audio signals.

@FooBar89

4 жыл бұрын

Vlad G really? have you seen a 23 bit DAC with 0.05 INL? what about an 100GHz oscilloscope? yes, lets talk about your amazing ears 🤦‍♀️

@Coneman3

3 жыл бұрын

@@FooBar89 Ears and brain (the decoder) are more complicated than anything else in the universe. That is NOT the same as saying many items of technology can do things our brains can't. So much can. But our brains are still amazing and something we don't fully understand.

@fartpooboxohyeah8611

Ай бұрын

@@greganikin7003 You are ignorant, but you think you sound cool.

Carver did the null test with Mark Levinson ML2 amp before doing it with Stereophile and the Conrad Johnson amp.

@Drummerjuice

3 жыл бұрын

I have both the Carver amps modeled after the ones used in the challenges and love them!

The more I read about audiophiles and their magical cables, the more i think to myself "why get irritated by it? the believers aren't interested in facts...they love the fiction too much". My next thought is "I should sell my soul and start selling "audiophile" power cords" Ka-ching! $$$ 😂

Wait.. a shielded cable is only going to prevent interference injecting into that cable. If it's garbage coming out of the wall it's going to shield and protect that garbage to the other end. It's not going to clean up anything. Is it needed? Possibly. Depending on if you got a clean signal to begin with and there is nearby interference to warrant that shielding

And indeed also the costly cable he used, picked up the EMI as well as the stock cable ... thus ...

Someone invents a test to prove that audio cables doesn't affect sound quality: an audiophool says "ok we joked on expensive audio cables, but have you tested power cords?". When someone prove that power cords doesn't affect sound another audiophool will say "ok we joked also on power cords, but have you tested *this* (insert audiophool item here)". Repeat to infinite.

@IliyaOsnovikov

4 жыл бұрын

There is a finite number of cables in a system.

@585585MC

3 жыл бұрын

@@IliyaOsnovikov But there are an infinite number of factors affecting the sound an audiophool can bring into the discussion. RFI, noise, aliens, quantum physics, the universe... anything. They don't want the truth, they want to believe.

Amazingly today, if we remove and shorted as much analogue cable in the chain as possible, more music can be had. In the digital domain we have time for correction. Very long or very short cables sending digital information are VERY VERY less susceptible to loss do to internal or external electrical noise. Staying in the digital domain as long as possible removes a lot of damaging noise from the original sourced analogue waveform.

If the amplifier gets the exact same signal in different situations where the interconnect cable to the amplifier is the only variable, then the amplifier produces the same result according to the null test. I guess when other components are changed too, like a power cable, a series of null tests for each component and a chain null test are needed. In the IT software testing world: a test plan. By the way, after the cables it would be interesting to extend the testing to different DACs.

A blind test is a no brainer to prove which side is right. Why aren't we seeing this? If there is a difference, one should know even without benefit of sight.

Surely EMI interacting with an unshielded cable would induce an electrical current or voltage in said cable, and therefore would show up in a null test when being tested against a shielded cable? Assuming there is significant EMI in the vicinity which the shielded cable is doing a better job of filtering out than the unshielded one ?

Ethan was speaking about interconnects.

Paul works for PS Audio. That say's enough...

Paul , well let’s talk about that ..... that’s when the salesman BS starts . Just prove Ethan is wrong , it shouldn’t be that hard for a High End audio company like PS Audio and all its engineers. Paul you disagree with Ethan a Audio Engineer, but agree with Steve Guttenberg A Fun lovin’ old High End Audio salesmen that is .... Amazing to me.

@FooBar89

4 жыл бұрын

John Olson it is not possible, or rather impossible, there’s nothing to prove, because PS Audio and Paul is wrong; and PS Audio isn’t high end ;)

@ilovecops6255

4 жыл бұрын

ThinkLearnSolve: Did YOU DO IT! thnks aboit its! thankes youe!

@Coneman3

3 жыл бұрын

The null test proves very little, there is nothing to disprove wrt audio quality differences. Ethan's theory is an oversimplification of what he is trying to assess, and this makes it flawed. It is based on many assumptions. Just because you cannot disprove a theory based on an unsubstantiated exprapolation does not make it right. It would be like disproving claims there is a God.

@sebdhaese

3 жыл бұрын

@@Coneman3 No, you do not understand how the null test works or even sound for as far as I can tell. If there is a difference, it can be measured. Either as a signal in a cable or sound waves in the air. The measurements are so extremely more precise compared to what humans can hear, any change should always first appear in measurements instead of actual hearing. If you still hear a difference? it is 100% psycho-acoustics.

@Coneman3

3 жыл бұрын

@@sebdhaese The Null test doesn't take into account a cable's shielding and how it can affect the signal in a nearby cable. It only measures cables in isolation. Numerous audiophiles do hear real differences. Shame you can't.

I don't use the null box method nor is it necessary if you have access to a good oscilloscope. Any good oscilloscope can invert one or more input channels and has a channel add feature. If you add two identical signals and one is inverted in phase and they are exactly level matched, then the resultant sum signal will be no signal at all. I've done cable comparison tests using an audio source running into the scope and matched just as Paul describes. I test from just above DC to above 100 KHz. There is absolutely no need to go higher than that. I've found that among all the interconnect cables I have, I have yet to find any that exhibit any measurable null result above about what works out to be about -80 dB. At this point the system noise is starting to overwhelm the residual signal. Despite this, I can still detect a difference in the sound qualities of one type of interconnect cable vs. another. Some cables contribute to better imaging and soundstaging than others. I can not explain why there is a difference when it can't be detected with instrumentation. But it's there. For the next phase of my testing I'll repeat the null testing using spectrum analysis, and vector and scalar network analysis. I will, however, state that if a nulled signal between different interconnects yields no measurable signal via a sensitive spectrum analyzer and network analyzer, then there IS no signal that can account for any difference in sound. At that point I will be forced to conclude that there is a point at which the high end cable game becomes nothing but wishful thinking. I am HOPING to find evidence that there's something to high end cables. But if sensitive, precision analysis using some of the best test equipment on the market, measuring all known domains (voltage, frequency, and phase) say there's nothing there, then there is nothing there. I do not believe in magic. If there's nothing that can be detected then there is nothing there to detect.

@andershammer9307

5 жыл бұрын

Differences I hear in interconnect cables are soundstaging and frequency balance and sometimes dynamics. Also some cables tend to smear the highs more than others. When a cymbal makes a sound its not just a hisssss. There are quiet sounds between the sounds and some cables just smear over that making the quiet sounds less quiet.

@RandyShirley

5 жыл бұрын

I don't need my O'scope to tell me if one sounds better than the other. It is readily apparent.

@2latuile

5 жыл бұрын

"Despite this, I can still detect a difference in the sound qualities of one type of interconnect cable vs. another" => repeatably in a double-blind ABX test ?

@poserwanabe

4 жыл бұрын

@@2latuile We both know that's never going to happen 🤣😆😂

Paul, I'm sorry, but you just got it wrong this time. Differences in shielding of cables can be measured by doing a null test. The cable that absorbs the most emissions will conduct the biggest amount of noise and this noise difference becomes visible with a null test. Also radiated emissions can be measured by using coils around the cable as a probe, like an RF current probe. To properly measure that, an anechoic chamber/Faraday cage is needed, so most companies won't have the facilities to do so.

@tommyheron464

4 жыл бұрын

Paul knows all these variables. That's why he managed to dance around each issue ( looking a tad awkward ) I might add. My opinion of his opinion dropped by at least %90 after this null test shananagins.

Just keep power cables and audio cables separated, The EMF is gone in a very VERY short distance from the cord. If they have to be close keep at 90 deg to each other, not parallel. The sound absolutely cannot be affected by just the difference in the cord. The power at the end of the cord is IDENTICAL unless u have a defective cord. Unobtainium plated cord caps make no difference.

Should The Null Tester compare the original signal with the signal passed through the tested cable? This may collect some difference that may be amplified, like it does now, and further analysed via ADC and some computer based tools. So two cables data can be analysed to have some difference.

I’d like to thank Cai (Kai?) for submitting such an interesting question. It’s engaging and rewarding to come across fresh and interesting material! Cheers!

Paul, you really stepped in it. The null test will show EMI and all interference as long as your scope can see high frequencies. And of course, EMI is filtered out by any reasonable power supply anyway, so that argument is moot. What the null test can't do is account the placebo effect, confirmation bias, and magical thinking.

5:34 yes, Paul, the difference has to show up in a null test. If the null shows no difference, it's in your head.

@genez429

5 жыл бұрын

So if Cable A and cable B sound different when connecting a certain preamp to an amplifier? How do you measure the cables while connected to the two units? If you can't? Then there is a major deficiency in how that cables are tested.

@johnratcliffe6438

5 жыл бұрын

@@genez429 Just measure the signal leaving the amps while playing the same track surely?

@genez429

5 жыл бұрын

@@johnratcliffe6438 But, cables are measured alone on the test equipment? You going to try every amp combination there is?

@johnratcliffe6438

5 жыл бұрын

@@genez429 I was just trying to suggest a way to answer your question...

@hardcorecap

5 жыл бұрын

@@genez429 The cables can be tested with an oscope while connected to devices by picking a point along the cable and removing the jacket. If it's a certain pre-amp and a certain amp, then you can set up the pre and the amp and swap out cables to measure the differences. if you record the differences, those can be nulled.

Ethan Winer is just letting you audiophiles know what any decent audio engineer will tell you ! and dont forget these engineers are probably the guys who mixed some of the tunes that you are listening to today. THINK ABOUT IT!

@RandyShirley

5 жыл бұрын

That's sad.

@fuzzsound2899

5 жыл бұрын

But true

@andershammer9307

5 жыл бұрын

I avoid recordings made with those engineers and go for recordings made with engineers who's ears I trust like Doug Sax.

@fuzzsound2899

5 жыл бұрын

which engineers!? Decent engineers!?

@andershammer9307

5 жыл бұрын

A decent recording engineer would be one known for his hearing ability.

There are still mysteries in the universe & on this planet. Let's just leave it there. 😊

@tommyheron464

4 жыл бұрын

Lightning prod just because humans don't know everything does not mean we know nothing. It's like when I say "i've never seen evidence for God so why should I believe? Which God b.t.w.?" The response might be "you don't know everything" so god is everywhere we haven't looked,, untill we do look,, and he's never there. Magic is magic and magic is make believe.

So are you going to accept Ethan's challenge to you for a debate? kzread.info/dash/bejne/aKZ2lLlppdDKoZM.html

Well, the difference between this video and Ethans' is claim vs. evidence. Where's the evidence that the mentioned preamp does sound different with different power cables? Has this actually been proven in a DBT?

The difference you hear is not coming from the signal in the cables its's coming from the difference in your wallet. I wonder how many 'blind tests' have been carried out when the listener is totally unaware that anything has been changed but still hears a difference. That would be a test I would love to see. Go into someone's home, change their cables when they are out and see if they notice anything when they come back.

@Paulmcgowanpsaudio

3 жыл бұрын

Happened to me more than a few times and I've caught it every one of those times. Even tracked down the culprit.

@beer_goggler

3 жыл бұрын

@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Not with an interconnect. Not possible. They all sound the same. Exactly the same. Do a double blind test under lab conditions, you'd only ever guess it right 50% of the time. You won't do that of course. You'd be found out.

@Paulmcgowanpsaudio

3 жыл бұрын

@@beer_goggler I have done that many times and can always tell. Whenever we test a new interconnect we make a point of not knowing which we're listening to. Much has to do with the resolving power of your system. Most people's system do not have the ability to show those differences, which is perhaps true in your case.

@beer_goggler

3 жыл бұрын

@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio As I said, do a double blind listening test under lab condition where the equipment is controlled by an independent 3rd party. Stream it live on KZread. I’ll bet you only guess the expensive interconnect 50% of the time. I’m so confident I’m right I know you’d never do it.

@Paulmcgowanpsaudio

3 жыл бұрын

@@beer_goggler I would do it (and have) in my sound room. A "lab" may or may not work because of their system. In any case, your mind is set and you have your opinion. Thanks for sharing.

Well, the null test can be set up to show differences in sound. If there really is a difference in sound, it should show up. Any differences he showed were lower than 90 decibels from the signal, which is probably indistinguishable to the human ear.

Seems like your talking about inductive and capacitive properties that influence, color the audio. I learned to keep utility 120 volt lines away from speaker wiring (inductive)and make sure all connections are tight (capacitive).

You misspelled "error" in your thumbnail, your street cred just went down the drain lol.

How many PS products are UL or ETL listed? Or do your AC line products conform to any UL ETL standards, to which it would be listed? UL matters...Can't be built to UL standards, if it ain't got no UL listing number, can't claim it is, without such testing.

If a null test can't pick up EMI, can EMI be picked up by the ear even?

@azzinny

5 жыл бұрын

Yes, of course. The amount of difference in sound depends on the power amp's immunity to EMI.

@azzinny

5 жыл бұрын

An extreme example. I heard a radio station on a pair of Sony floor standing active speaker (yes, it is a rare model) that is conned to an apple computer's analog headphone output jack. There was no tuner or a receiver in the room. As I put a couple of Radio Shack ferrite RF choke over the cable, the radio station sound was muted.

When you sell a $1000 power cable I guess you would say that.

@vladg5216

4 жыл бұрын

When you can't afford a $1000 power cable, of course you would say this.

@shootinbruin3614

4 жыл бұрын

@@vladg5216 you mean too intelligent to buy a $1000 power cable

I had some cheap old rca going to my amps, and I replaced them with bj rca and the difference isn't like amazing but definiteley audible, and even my s.o. noticed before i even mentioned i switched them when she walked in the room. Now maybe my old ones had crappy soldering, or were rusting or whatever but it was definitely worth the 40 bucks. I really don't know why they sound better if they shouldn't.

@MrsZambezi

3 жыл бұрын

A likely story.

@williammorales8204

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrsZambezi Whats likely? That my old ones had crappy build, defective etc? Possibly. I don't know how else the bj rca can make that much of a difference.

Paul, are you prepared to comment on Ethan's challenge publicly ? kzread.info/dash/bejne/aKZ2lLlppdDKoZM.html I accept that you have a lot more riding on this than Ethan appears to have at stake - an entire business and the lives that entails vs bragging rights on objectivist forums - but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts either way.

Cables..... yikesssss but any debate on these invariably rests finally on cable sales. In'it?

Ethan Winer: "If the vendor says, this cable will sound better bla anything , you can be sure its pure bullshit."

@grandrapids57

3 жыл бұрын

There are three styles of being an audio snob and Ethan Winer is this: anyone whose point of diminishing returns is higher than his own is wasting his money.

With respect, Paul has to find common ground between Audio engineering and the (often) mystical claims of Audiophiles because the Hi end audio market relies on BOTH the subjective and objective paradigms. You can not sell gear solely on specifications, the market relies on "feelz" as well

Thanks 😊

This doesn’t take sound signature or several other factors into account..... No one is forcing anyone to anything they don’t want to buy when it comes to audio gear. Technical measurements are only part of the equation. You could have a 300bhp Mustang or a 300bhp Porsche 911. Same power rating, but completely different driving characteristics and build quality. Pick the one you like - in the end, these are toys and it’s supposed to be fun.

@johnratcliffe6438

5 жыл бұрын

Sound signature is bullshit. That's what he is saying. As far as cables go at least.

Maybe he will chime in...he pays attention to all of the You Tube videos and blogs. I would imagine someone will clue him into this video. I've seen him rebutting and commenting before and even disagree.

I watched Ethan's Null Test Video. His null only went down to -20 dB. I can hear stuff much weaker than -20 dB into the mix. There were still differences in the cables. All cables sound different. I changed speaker cables once, and my wife (at the time!) came in and said "that sounds really good, what did you do?" That was totally unsolicited so it COULD NOT be placebo effect. These "measurements only" guys have it fixed in their minds that cables can't make a difference and they will not shift from that. My recommendation is for anyone who says "cables don't matter" to go visit Paul and ask for a demonstration. If YOU don''t hear the difference, then cables don't matter to YOU. I will continue to buy and use cables that allow my system to perform at its best.

@poserwanabe

4 жыл бұрын

I agree 💯 if that's what you think you should do it !! If you think a chrome air cleaner will make your car faster you should do that also !!

@dominikgs

Жыл бұрын

You don't understand what he is doing. He amplifies the difference by 80dB and then measures the difference which is from there on -20dB. That sums up to 100dB.

Firstly, no tests are infallible.

@jonathansturm4163

5 жыл бұрын

The argument takes the form of If a, then b; b therefore a. It's invalid. To see that this is so, a couple of examples: If my scientific theory is correct, I will make certain observations. I do make certain observations, therefore my scientific theory is correct. This seems reasonable until we try something like the following: If Hilary is pregnant, then Hilary is a woman. Hilary is a woman, therefore Hilary is pregnant. This is clearly incorrect. No amount of corroboration of a scientific theory will establish its truth. Scientific theories can _never_ be proven. Sir Karl Popper proposed a way out of this: falsification. Here the argument takes the form: If my scientific theory is correct, I will make certain observations. I do not make certain observations, therefore my scientific theory is incorrect. A scientific theory is amenable to disproof.

@Geopholus

5 жыл бұрын

The science of Electronics, and Physics are based on using applicable mathematics, to repeatably measurable quantities. In this way, one may calculate to a high degree of precision, what will happen, to electrical signals applied to conductors. The art of the application of Rhetorical devices, with the object of selling something , is quite different. Being A member of a set does not mean that all members are identical, in mathematics. silly silly Hillary jokes.

People that think a subjective source can be tested validly 100% of the time using objective methods are bonkers. You cannot get there from here. Additionally, our senses can be trained. You can train your ears to "listen better" you can train your eyes as a pilot to notice things in the sky that a "normal" person would not notice and the ultimate example are sommeliers. To become a master sommelier you have to be able to taste and identify 15 different types of grape and you must identify the country of origin and the region and vineyard. On top of that you need to be able to identify the varietals of these wines the same way and that is just the red wines. This is a completely blind test. So you have to train your sense of taste for very specific "tells" of what each wine may be. It takes years and there is only a 10% pass rate for the first attempt. A Master Sommelier makes about $175k per year probably more now, this was a few years ago. Anyone can train their senses if they are not in some way impaired (damaged or just age). The whole notion that just because you can't hear it or that we can't measure it, so we can't hear it is just completely ignorant of how our senses actually work. For years it was thought that adults cannot learn to hear in perfect pitch. We now know that this is not true. The myth came about because if someone couldn't be taught in something like a year then it is impossible. The reality is that the 100% objectivist approach falls short and the 100% subjectivist falls short. You have to use both to get a more accurate notion of what is going on. 🧠

In another post deleted by Ethan Winer, I pointed out that he looks disqualified by the way he talked about capacitance of a cable. He just mentions capacitance measured with DC. Viewing a cable as a single series resistor, a single series inductor, and a single parallel capacitor is overly simple(Paul used this overly simple model, too, but his context is very different. Paul's usage of the overly simple model is perfectly fine.), even in undergraduate level physics and engineering courses. It seems that he did not see the less simple model involving integration in textbooks. This clue tells a lot about Ethan Winer's videos. I also suggest him look at some transistor, jfet, op amp spec sheets to see why people write capacitance with frequency used to measure capacitance: xx pF @ oooo kHz. People are using certain equivalent model appropriate for certain frequency. This applies to cable, too, even if we reject what he calls "Bullshits." I can sense some clues in his video indicating the level of his technical and scientific background. He relies heavily on expressions such as "Bull Shit!" and "Period!"

@WMalven

4 жыл бұрын

LOL!!! Nothing you say negates the fact that the null tester proves beyond any doubt that there is no signal difference between any two properly constructed power cables...any cables. You're using the old BS logical falacy of attacking the messenger while ignoring the message--or FACTS--in this case.

Acquire the device and prove it wrong, then. Its that simple.

If cables made a difference, they should be avoided by active speakers with digital audio crossovers. The funny thing about these amateurs is that they first buy an analogue system with many components in the signal path and then they start to worry about cables. But none of them ever says: Get rid of it and use a digital signal. Why? By avoiding all this crap in the signal path they have nothing left to improve. Nothing left to worry about but the choice of good music.

The human hearing adapts to sound. Every musician knows that. So we have very careful ;)

Its not what we do know. Its what we are yet to know...

@vicdmise

4 жыл бұрын

Dude...get it together.

One of these guys sells cables and one does not.

@Paulmcgowanpsaudio

4 жыл бұрын

Ummmm, that's true, though we don't sell audio cables which is what's in question. Further, Ethan has his own bill of goods he sells and it requires us to believe he's an expert in the field.

Danny Ritchie always start his discussions about cables by getting out his "flat farther globe" and tells them to not bother commenting.

@MrsZambezi

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, he's clueless about cables.

I think that Pauls tone is just to uncertain. He should really make a case for non discovered methodes. Methodes that will show considerable differences in cables, which are audible.

Any type of distortion will change frequency, amplitude or both. And it rarely does this in a linear manner, meaning that some frequencies or amplitudes are changed more than others are. These changes in frequency and amplitude alter the tune by changing the pitch relations in the music. For example - since the perceived pitch of a note consists of the sum of its fundamental plus its harmonics, a distortion that adds extra harmonics will shift the pitch of that note up slightly. Likewise, a distortion that results in the rolling-off of higher frequencies (thus reducing the amplitude of some harmonics) can lower the perceived pitch. Our musical scale is composed of a series of fixed , predictable steps and our brain has an uncanny ability to follow those steps, determining when errors have been made.

The null test is infallible - in isolation - what it cant tell is how a cable will perform when connected between various items of Hi-Fi gear, under certain conditions certain issues could arise in a cable that had passed the null test. Could be a ground loop or some strange standing wave phenomenon - anything. A true engineer would not claim that something like that is impossible BUT if such an effect did arise, it would not be beyond the realms of engineering to analyze the issue, it would not be an "out of this world" / mystical effect.

Funny how he is trying to beat around the bush. Ethans null test had nothing to do with power or speaker cables! The questioner is already confusing effects of audio cables and headphone cables. Paul starts to add even more confusion and talks about power cables.

1:55 "stereophile board could not tell the difference." I love these videos by PS Audio but he just talked himself out of the game.

isn’t it spelled “error”, not “erorr”?

Paul McGowan scared to debate Ethan Winer 🙈

Paul if you are claiming your products are superior due to something you cannot measure, how are you getting them to be that way if you cannot detect them nor design for such? Makes no sense. Things sound different to me depending on the hour of the day. Sometimes my perceptions switch within seconds and I can feel it. I am not a machine, and I would bet all my dough that no human is so precise and unchanging.

I am just wondering where advertising fraud starts...

He offered you a debate?

“A null test is infallible for electrical differences”…. “(Paraphrasing) A null test will not detect EM interference “….. Doesn’t the E in EM stand for electrical?? And magnetic interference induces a voltage ( which by definition is electrical), so which is it?? To further prove the point, Paul goes on to state that THEIR OWN EQUIPMENT uses a null test to display the noise they have cleaned up!! Unbelievable the complete lack of intellectual integrity in this rebuttal. The rebuttal even contradicts itself!!

From my +1000 hours of youtube research on interconects I have come to the conclusion that if an audiophiles wants to spend over 1000 dollars in interconects is their business. It is their money they are spending and not yours. Paul is an smart guy and he is doing what any of us will do in order to make some more business by making a product people are willing to buy for whatever reason they have. I think we all know that ethan is right but I bet if you all had an over 20000 stereo you dont wouldnt want to put a cheapo wallmart interconnect in that system.

Ethan Weiner explained to me on AVSforum that I should buy the cheapest microphone available since they are “commodity products” and all sound the same. Next level flat earther.

Sorry I am proving that Ethan's null tester method is not complete here, because Ethan is deleting my posts. I heard a radio station (the audio, below 20 kHz) on a Sony active floor standing speaker (yes it is a rare model) connected to an apple computer's analog headphone jack. There was no tuner or a receiver in the room. As I put a couple of Radio Shack ferrite RF suppressor (The included graph indicates it is effective at suppressing 100 MHz.) over the cable, the radio station I was hearing on the Sony active speaker was muted. Ethan's null tester method (band width 100kHz, according to Ethan) does not detect the difference between the cable with the ferrite RF suppressor and the cable without the ferrite, even though anyone could hear the difference: the radio station audible vs inaudible. Ethan's null tester does not tell everything about audio interconnect cable. (In Ethan's style,) Period!

Ethan Winer is a strange guy. I pointed out that his null tester says nothing about RF noise, and warned that if he responds that we do not hear above 20kHz to defend his null tester, he is disqualified. He indeed said we do not hear above 20kHz, and called my posts ignorant and insulting. In a new post, I pointed out that, although we do not hear above 20 kHz, whether a power amp receives RF noise affects audio quality, and that such a claim comes from, for example, Crown in pro audio market, not in high-end audio market. He deleted this post of mine and several other posts of mine.

@azzinny

5 жыл бұрын

By the way, the claim of Crown was in the owner's manual of a Crown power amplifier.

@bobjordan4758

5 жыл бұрын

The demagogues, Whiner and his narcissistic syncophants, cannot tolerate any dissent/truisms. It threatens their fragile egos.

@jfr1907

4 жыл бұрын

Yep, Ethan did the same type of heavy handed narcissistic reply to me after I tried to be very diplomatic in my assessment. I have zero faith in his cult, which is solely based on bashing others. Paul is a class act and approaches things in a constructive manner. Of course there is always a point of diminishing returns, which to me Pauls gear is clearly above that threshold, but to say that gear is not "better" is pure fantasy. Ethan is a hater pure and simple.

If you hear a difference between high end cables and regular quality cables, but the difference is scientifically undetectable whether by mic or oscilloscope, you got placebo'd.

@vladg5216

4 жыл бұрын

if that makes you feel better about being poor and having bad hearing, go ahead and keep believing it. No need to bash others who can afford to, and have the ability, to hear differences between cables. By the way, what about a difference between a low end cable and a "regular quality cable"? At some point you have to pick a side. Do cables make no difference at all? Or do they make a difference, but not an important/significant difference? If so, who decides where the line of significant/important improvement lies? You cable deniers always want to have it both ways. The fact that you have to introduce the qualifier "regular quality" or "reasonable quality" means you've already conceded your side of the argument. But you're so smug you don't even realize that you're conceding your side of the argument while berating your opponent.

Paul - Whose whole business model depends on convincing you this stuff works Ethan - Performing a simple test Who has a conflict of interest here? Someone who is trying to sell me $10,000's of audio gear .. .. or someone who is trying to perform a scientific test? Hmm let me think! Can't lie, heard the sprout, loved it. As for the rest of PS Audio gear, not a chance!

@vladg5216

4 жыл бұрын

Ethan is a troll whose business depends on shitting on other people's products. He sells sound diffusers, so he wants to convince you that nothing makes a difference except room acoustics. Don't waste your money on amps, turntables, phono cartridges, etc. Just buy Ethan's room treatment products.

Here's Ethan's video on the null test so you can make up your own mind. kzread.info/dash/bejne/jK2L1pWkcbGnY7Q.html

A definitive test for this debate, for interconnect cables or power cables, would be to construct or acquire two cables that measure identically on a null test; then audition the two cables in a sound test to a group of experienced listeners in *multiple, blind, A/B trials*. If a single listener, or if multiple listeners could identify any differences between two cables, reliably ..across several trials, then Paul’s argument would be validated. .............. If no differences between two cables could be detected at all; or if perceived cable differences could not be detected reliably.. across several trials, then Ethan’s argument would be validated.

@googoo-gjoob

5 жыл бұрын

this has been done by millions of listeners. ethan doesnt care what it sounds like....he ONLY cares how it measures. i dont give a damn how it measures......how does it SOUND.

@2latuile

5 жыл бұрын

@@googoo-gjoob No it hasn't. You're missing the "multiple, blind, A/B trials" part (ABX would be even better actually).

@googoo-gjoob

5 жыл бұрын

@@2latuile im not a little girl... im not swayed by what i want to hear. if the want i want to sound better doesnt....it is what it is. i would never presume to tell someone what they see/smell/taste. how people can tell me what i hear is unfathomable.

@2latuile

5 жыл бұрын

@@googoo-gjoob Sorry but I just don't get how your "answer" relates to my comment.

5:44 power cables again, what about the wires in your wall? 🤦‍♀️ sure the test can and will show everything, use different sample signals 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ you are not limited in testing on a specific set of signals

8:25 speakers interract with amp via cables.

I wonder if the null test equipment is sensitive to pick up the difference of the electrical signal, if any

Although I am on Ethan's side of the debate, I think Paul should challenge him to come to PS Audio to actually hear or not hear the difference on the IRS system.

@PrimeHiFi

4 жыл бұрын

Keith Moriyama Ethan would have a confirmation bias and wouldn’t admit to hearing a difference, that is, if one exists.

Bob Carver did the null test many years ago. Look what he makes now. Tube amps ! Not cheap either.

@lupahole

5 жыл бұрын

He propably figured "if you cant beat them, join them". Pretty dishonest of him i say. But there is plenty of money to be found in the trending hipster tube audio market.

@keithmoriyama5421

5 жыл бұрын

Carver makes a lot more than just audiophile equipment-- the are heavily into the pro market where tubes just don't cut it.

@bockaudio

2 жыл бұрын

@@keithmoriyama5421 Nonsense.

to is surprise (Paul), some of what is saying is actually true. They do sound different, ergo something is different, true. If it does not show on a null test, then its not electric, also true. What he does not want to admit is the next logical step - maybe there´s something different with the listener. Expectation, biased, placebo... That´s what blind tests are for, but somehow they are never made by those who make the most ridiculous claims; unlike Ethan who systematically produces valid tests to backup what is saying, PS audio and others don´t. Also funny how after he (Paul) says the difference is not electrical (5:41), but immediately then goes on justifying the difference of ridiculous overpriced cable is that they are triple shielded and don´t pick EMI/RFI interference. Is that a non electrical phenomena??? and that interference, being electrical it must appear on the null test (and it does - on Ethan´s video you can hear the cable picking diferente noise when he moves them while having the make up gain at +80dB). Paul should be ashamed for not even being able to produce a decent explanation or at least one who could grant the benefit of doubt, and instead selling this snake oil of which he obviously profits...

Cables do make a difference. Primare 80 series integrated and CD player driving Jamo Concert 8 (originals) hooked up with chord Company interconnect and Linn speaker cable. The system was not really holding my attention which was a problem as I am an active (as opposed to background) listener. In desperation, I forked out for Nordost Blue heaven interconnects and speaker cable. Job done. I kept the system unchanged for 5 years before major upgrades when moving house. Kept the Blue heavens however. Nordost enhanced performance, Linn hampered performance in this particular system.