Ethan: Paul, explain to me the objective benefits of your $1000 interconnects. Paul: Aahhh, good question. I remember hiking in the woods north of my house. No, wait... it was south. Well, really more south-west. It was a warm sunny day. I remember this because it was unusual for September. The birds were singing and the squirrels were foraging for nuts, you know... like they do. Any-who... PS cables are the best. Paul is a salesman, full stop. His "opinions" are heavily greased with the very snake oil he SELLS. Debating a salesman is akin to debating a politician. Obfuscation, non-answers, eluding the questions and, especially, clouding the issues with double speak and subject changes are stock & trade for both.

@andydelle4509

5 жыл бұрын

You hit the nail on the head with Paul's expected response here!

@jimolson9671

5 жыл бұрын

CraftAero damn the first part of your write up was hilarious I definitely agree with you Paul is a very good salesman

@genez429

5 жыл бұрын

Who is talking about $1000 interconnects? How much did Ethan's test equipment cost? Should he had bought some cheap Chinese knock-offs since all test equipment is the same?

@ibfisher

5 жыл бұрын

LOL, you said exactly what was on my mind. Sadly, audio is fraught with snake oil. We all enjoy audio so much we take it seriously....

@CraftAero

5 жыл бұрын

@@jimolson9671 Paul could sell a lump of coal labelled "Pre-Diamond". 99.9% of us ain't buyin' it but some poor sucker's wife is sporting coal on her finger and trying to convince her friends and family that it's superior to their shitty "current diamonds".

Back in the 90's, I used to work in a high-end HiFi shop, I was kind of a gopher and all-around doer of what needed to be done, dusting and keeping things clean, cleaning the bathroom, helping with setting up auditions, loading heavy gear, etc. One day this guy comes in, he was purchasing a very high-end CD transport and a DAC to go with it. Of course, there were listening auditions to make sure this was what he wanted. After a few songs, he said "it sounds good, but it's a bit flat sounding", this is over $10,000 (in 90's money) worth of gear we're talking about LOL. So, the sales weasel recommends an external clock source (another $3k) and has me do the setup. I connect the clock source to the DAC's word clock input and then we put on the same CD he was listening to before. About halfway through the first song, the customer says "WOW! the everything sounds so much more OPEN and the detail and sound stage are also improved, I'LL TAKE IT!". Cool, whatever, another sale! He even sprung another $250 for the high-quality BNC cable. As I was boxing everything up, I then noticed the DAC had a small switch on the back panel labeled "Clock Source" with "Internal" and "External" being the two options. I didn't have the heart to say anything, but that switch was set to "Internal" the whole time. I kept my mouth shut, switched it to "External", boxed everything up and sent the customer on his way. I never said anything for fear of losing my job, but it just goes to show how easily perception can be influenced.

@EthanWiner

Жыл бұрын

What a great story, thanks for posting.

@njm1971nyc

9 ай бұрын

Love it ❤

The debate should end with playing Ethan's "A Cello Rondo", on a PS Audio system.

@printerek

4 жыл бұрын

But you came across this cello Ethan, it made me laugh very, very much :-)

@Turtleback8024

3 жыл бұрын

😂

This debate would never happen for the same reason that audio reviewers never do blind listening tests. It would show that these reviewers couldn’t identify which cable lifted the veil, widened the soundstage, and paid their salary even if their life depended on it.

@JB_inks

5 жыл бұрын

You are absolutely right

@firstnamelastname8336

5 жыл бұрын

Well... thunderf00t debated with wesbro Baptist Church so... Anything's possible :-)

@Wizardofgosz

5 жыл бұрын

Some "audiophile" forums have even BANNED the discussion of double-blind tests. If you even mention the idea you are banned from the forum.

@juliaset751

5 жыл бұрын

This test will solve nothing except how Paul and Ethan hear things. The real point is if YOU hear a difference. If it sounds better to you (not Paul or Ethan) than buy it, if you don’t hear a difference, why would you buy it?

@Wizardofgosz

5 жыл бұрын

What test?? The actual TEST was done in this video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/jK2L1pWkcbGnY7Q.html This is just a debate about measurable, observable things. As someone pointed out, there is NOTHING to debate, here. Ethan already proved that WITH the null test. This I guess would just be entertainment. But I'm guessing that Paul fellow will decline.

I was really hoping that when I opened this the full title would read, “Ethan Winer challenges Paul McCartney to a duel.”

This crazy thing called a "blind listening test" exists for anyone who want to know who the salesman is.

@5starmaniac

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, you mean like this one, for instance?! : kzread.info/dash/bejne/eYir2diSaKzZYdI.html

@dirtyths

11 ай бұрын

Then Ethan should have no problem taking it, right? I mean, I've seen a guy in a demo room, an engineer, once claiming there could be no audible - not to mention measurable - differences in cables, who then was struck by said difference, get up, yelled it was imposssible, and leave the room. Where does that get everybody?

The real difference between these cables and amplifiers is that Paul has to address (read sales) it to prospective customers and you have to address it at AES & university students.

I'm an audiophile audio engineer and I can attest Paul McGowan is a clown.

Great video, you remind me when in 1985 Bob Carver took on Stereophile Magazine's challenge to duplicate the $6,000 Conrad Johnson Premier Four in 48 hrs without even knowing what he was trying to match (the Conrad was in a black box), which he did successfully and proved it in a null test to later market his cloned amp for $400. Genius !

I watched about 8 PS audio videos before I got to the snake oil one.

103+ people that bought $1,000 Cables disliked this video.

@mysas5983

5 жыл бұрын

Is this guy (Paul) the equivalent of homeopathie charlatans, but for sound ?

@Music_time82

5 жыл бұрын

I have 2500$ speaker cable.. its connected to about 30 grand of audio.. I sometimes swap it for 10$ cable to see the differences.. they are minor. I wouldnt be able to blind test. But i could easily blind test xlr cables. Not speaker cables. The differences are so small it's not worth the money. I just keep them for the hell of it Lol

@asdf072xxp

5 жыл бұрын

@@mysas5983 Not all the time, but sometimes, definitely.

@pierrelailvaux9544

5 жыл бұрын

Ironic right? Like the octopus said, there's a sucker born every minute.

@laxr5rs

5 жыл бұрын

I have expensive cables that I found in a dumpster. They work great but don't sound one bit different from any other adequate cheapo cables I've used? What am I doing wrong? Did the dumpster somehow drain all the mojo out of the cables? ;)

The more educated I became in electronics and audio, the further it pushed me away from many in the high-end community. There is just too much magic and fantasy taking place of fact. They listen to audio jewellery, not music. The snobs dismiss those who measure as "tin ear meter readers" and claim to hear the unhearable. They make claims of cable that somehow gain (vs rolloff) is involved. They also violently dismiss null and abx/dbt testers as "Inconclusive, or polluting of the original signal." History is littered with the crushed egos of those that failed blind amplifier and cable comparisons. Dunlavy used to demo his flagship speakers with a fake cable swap out that totally fooled the cocksure audio snobs in attendance. They live in a world that is like religious fundamentalism in denial of science. They also lean heavily on higher price always = better sound. When it comes to being on the side of engineers or audio mystics (especially those who make products they tout) I choose the engineers perspective. Science FTW \o/

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

Wow, this totally nails it. Well said. And so true. I think one problem is people have a hard time admitting they were scammed, even just to themselves. So they dig in and defend their unfortunate purchases rather than face the truth. My Null Tester demo video linked above *proves beyond all doubt* that the wires I tested all pass audio the same. The video clearly shows what the device does and how it works, yet some people choose to remain willfully ignorant.

@scottlowell493

5 жыл бұрын

Ethan Winer it has to be rooted in “ Alpha audiophile” ego. They paid 30 grand for a couple of speaker cables and damn it... they WILL hear a difference, and it’s ALWAYS better to them, never just different. They cannot be contradicted by proof as it would give them permanent psychological damage or harm sales of those that advertise with them. They will never accept the magnitude of their delusions. They always caveat the results "Yeah but..." (One alpha insisted that double-blind testing generates more false/erroneous/biased results than standard auditions.) They cannot handle any mitigation to their Alpha golden ear/audio expert status. I've seen a knock-down drag-out fight at a hi-fi dealer in Virginia. Two 50-something guys flying out the door into the street. The argument? Measured vs magic speaker cables. The defenses are always the same. 1) They have a better ear. 2) They spent more 3) They know more 4) Tests don't matter (unless it favors their opinion) 5) You cant afford it, so you are just angry about that. These same alphas cannot pass a blind abx/DBT but they will be the first to tell you how your system sounds and quality therof without hearing it.

@davidcottrell1308

2 жыл бұрын

the audiophiles are audiofools...in many cases, more money than sense....of course, that is until AFTER they buy their Brilliant Pebbles...then is all seems to equal out!!! :)

@rogerlavallee3572

2 жыл бұрын

Exceptionally well stated comment !

I have a hell of a lot of respect for his guy. It's high time we all stopped swallowing the bullshit of certain audio engineers who think they know everything, and my God, they're countless. The worst part is the people who are suckers, and stupid enough to actually believe that a $3,000 pair of audio cables make a difference. Etc. and Etc. and Etc.

I'm sure McGowan knows he's selling snake-oil, but money has a curious way of destroying our decency.

I had already done my own null tests with 5 cables from Monster, Mogami, Gepco, Reference and (tsc tsc) Spectraflex. A much more basic test, just taking the signal out of the D/A converter, through each one of the cables, and recording it again through the A/D converter. ALL OF THE CABLES nulled themselves. So, I don't waste my time anymore.

@EthanWiner

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, I wish more people would do this type of testing. It would save them a lot of money!

@dornauge1995

Жыл бұрын

this is flawed... of course a nulltest doesnt show the difference because the difference is small .. a 1khz doesnt become a 1,1khz sinewave... tho i heared it myself and cables do matter, you can keep thinking the nulltest "shows it all" and keep fooling yourself

If I were a manufacturer of preamplifiers and power amplifiers, I definitely would not be claiming that cables make a difference with my equipment since that implies some pretty serious design issues if small changes in the characteristics of the cable (probably capacitance) affect performance.

@EthanWiner

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, great point.

I really love what Ethan is tryin to do. A lot of respect. We need more people like him.

@falconquest2068

4 жыл бұрын

I don't know, Ethan always comes across to me as being a little too cocky. I recall seeing a video of his home listening room and it appeared rather junky to me. There are musicians who are technically adept and then there are artists who inject emotion into their music. I'm not saying at all that I think $1K interconnects are necessary but rather than debate Paul, I would like to see Ethan have a conversation with Nelson Pass.

@venturarodriguezvallejo9777

4 жыл бұрын

@@falconquest2068 Why? Because Nelson Pass has any type of superiority over the rest of people interested in high quality reproduced sound? Sorry. Nelson Pass is just an audio designer with a lot of non scientific prejudices, like too many others.

@buddachile

4 жыл бұрын

@@falconquest2068 Not cocky, but confident and with good reason. He simply knows what is to Paul a mystery. I know this because I too know what Ethan knows and Paul doesn't.

YES!!!!! Timbre part makes me happy. You are the best!

There is no point having a debate when someone believes their point of view is cast in stone.

@felixcattus1520

4 жыл бұрын

That is exactly one reason for a debate. When two positions are irreconcilable and both arguing they do not try to convince each other but the public.

The cable snake oil is really annoying. I'm glad that more engineers are coming around and showing test results to show that there is no audible difference in many of the products that they are stating are better. So ridiculous to think people are willing to spend 7 thousand on a cable

I have a pair of expensive grado headphones and I have a 50cm grado extension cable. Im convinced that if I plug the headphone jack into this extension cable and the cable is brand new so all contacts with the plug and socket are new but I find the headphones sound is not quite so clear with the added extension. Is this possible or is it placebo.

You, Sir, are quite correct, in that every meaningful parameter of an amplifier, such as gain, total harmonic distortion and signal-to-noise ratio can easily be measured! As far as "timber" is concerned, this is a non-issue, as the ideal amplifier should have NO timber! Timber comes (or SHOULD come) from the sound source, not the amplifier! It's job is to faithfully reproduce the sound source: any variation from the input signal constitutes distortion, and can absolutely be measured!

@EthanWiner

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, of course. If only more people understood these simple facts.

@williammcquade3081

Жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner This was Linns philosophy with the Linn Sondek LP12 Turntable. It still is with their overpriced Klimax streamer.

It should be safe to say that without audio engineers like Ethan we would not have great recordings, and without audio product designers/sellers like Paul and his company we would not have great equipment to reproduce those recordings on. However, as a retired professional engineer myself I have to agree with Ethan on this, but Paul’s sometimes ethereal explanations of all things audio can be quite interesting too, so I keep watching.

I laughed out loud really loud when I heard Winer say what the premise of this was...love it

My spouse and I are now separated... and it started with a debate : ) Good luck!

Right behind you Ethan ,time to dispell the myths and lies peddled by sellers of audio gear for their own gains. Science and fact will always overcome!!

Very well articulated points. I agree with all of your points, Ethan. I do, however, have one point I'd like to make in Paul's defense. He's right about one thing - sometimes you can hear a difference in two signals that perfectly null, though he's wrong about us not knowing why. Psychoacoustics is why - and no, it doesn't mean that he's hearing a difference simply because he wants to. The cochlea actually has efferent (signal-sending) nerve fibers coming from the brainstem, which are connected to various parts of the brain including the visual cortex. What that means is that the signals from the ear to to the brain are actually modified based on what we are seeing, thinking, and feeling. How many times have you turned a knob or pressed a button on an EQ or a compressor on a muted channel and heard a difference in the mix? I know you've done it - all engineers have. A similar thing happens when someone buys overpriced voodoo wires. They see the wires, they expect a difference, and they actually hear one. The only caveat is that the change is only audible to them because that change happened entirely within their own nervous system. So if we want to be scientific and logical about things, we have to acknowledge that we all hear things differently based on our own thoughts and assumptions. A methodical approach with null testing is, of course, the only way to reorient our ears and challenge ourselves when we think we hear a difference in such situations.

@EthanWiner

Жыл бұрын

Yes, of course it's well known that people imagine hearing things that don't exist. But the purpose of the null tester is to prove that a $3 RCA wire sounds the same as a much more expensive wire with BS "directional arrows." So for whatever reason people think Wire A sounds "better" than Wire B, they'd save a lot of money if they understood the difference was imagined and not real. There's also this: ethanwiner.com/believe.html

wow! i missed this video. good initiative. ps audio has been a real big pet peeve of mine. keep getting linked to them and needing to explain how inane some of their ideas are.

I dont think Paul wants you outing him and his fancy, audiophile, $1000 interconnects... that "sound" the same as $20 interconnects from amazon.

I have heard cables sound remarkable different. Same for DACs, pre-amps, and amps.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

No, you haven't hear a difference you only think you did. My Null tester demo proves this. You really need to watch that video, it's linked in the description. The issue is the frailty of human hearing. You think you hear a difference between wires, but there is no difference. At least not with most wires. So this is the answer, and you and Paul will either have to accept it or be forever wrong. There's no other way to say it.

@keithmoriyama5421

5 жыл бұрын

Everyone who owns a stereo hears a difference every day they turn it on.

just a question,has anyone done a comparison test on KZread with say $5000 RCA cables on say a highend Mac to see if there is a difference in sound quality?

Could you use this tester to also settle the long winded debate on dirty mains affecting Music.

Paul also says that speaker wires can sound different depending on the direction they are run. I.e.: swap them end for end and see which way sounds best. His explanation being that the metallic crystal structure of the wire can have a effect. He goes on to state that certain "High end" cable manufacturers can draw "mono-crystal" wires that need to be installed in a defined direction. This is why some audio cables ha directional arrows printed on them. Yeah, right. When it comes to audiophile grade equipment of any kind, there's always going to be that guy with more money than brains. The one who freaks out because his speaker cables are "BACKWARDS!" These are the ones that fall for the snake oil salesmen who sells him $20 per foot gold plated wires when a plain old spool of lamp cord wire from the hardware store would do just fine. I design signal cables for scientific instruments in extreme environments. My electrical engineers are more worried about impedance, shielding, and tribological noise in bending cables and couldn't care less which direction its running. What they care about is whether it transmits an accurate signal after many years of abuse. The life of a speaker wire in an audiophile listening room is fairly sedate.

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

Paul is an idiot who says also "it's bit-perfect but the bits have noise" to digital interconnects

I liked Paul at first, but then I heard him say things that quickly changed my mind. If I remember correctly from one video, he says swapping power cords is a great place to start in improving the sound you get from your system. I have limited electrical background, but I'm fully in the camp that says equipment sounds the same if it measures the same. Maybe this will discredit me, but I have a set of studio monitors for my PC and another for my TV setup. I figure they're good enough for me if they're good enough for the people who mix and master.

Having been messing with electronics for 50 years, I'm as sceptical as anyone , but I did once make up some speaker cables that I couldn't live with. They should have been pretty good - I used massive multi-strand cable that had been used to power a language laboratory running on 24 volts. So I spent some time terminating them and hooking up my Leak tube amp to my Quad ESL57s - a fairly undemanding load - apart from the quads looking like pure capacitors to the amp , but to my ears it sounded like I'd wired an incandescent lamp in series with the speakers. I went straight out and bought a reel of standard decent quality speaker cable - from an electronic component supplier and I've used that for 20 years. Sadly I no longer have access to those or similar cables to do a proper 1:1.

@Mrch33ky

5 жыл бұрын

How the speaker sounds is not the issue, its how the cables test against other cables, and in your case how each cable you made would test against its twin. If each channel sounded the same i.e. like an incandescent lamp in the series, then it would tend to prove Ethan's point. Cables that test the same cannot sound different. But without being able to test those cables its pointless to talk about how they sounded in comparison to other untested cables. Though I would like to hear those massive cables! :)

Yes, if the amplifiers measure the same on numbers they should sound differently because of - Circuit board, Capacitors, Resistors., Power supply (how clean it is. etc). Would you think all of these will make the "exit" amplifier sound different?

@EthanWiner

3 жыл бұрын

I think you meant to say should *not* sound differently?

Is Paul really the one to go after on cables? Go after Audioquest,Wireworld, Kimber etc

@EthanWiner

4 жыл бұрын

I challenge Paul not on wires, but on all the bad advice and outright mis-truths he spreads with his videos. A lot of people want to know the truth, and much of what Paul says is simply not true.

Anyone else ever notice that Paul's questions are all in the exact same envelopes? Good question! LOL

@Mrch33ky

5 жыл бұрын

Like Carnac The Magnificent!

Please someone send me the address of the battle ground. Thanks

ASR sent me. Learned a lot and saved a lot of money from the site. Thank you very much.

@EthanWiner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, check out some of my audio educational videos: kzread.info/dash/bejne/jKqd1MeuYratirA.html

You could at least entice everyone by promising a nice panel of judges with physics PHD's and plenty of wine and cheese flavored popcorn for the audience.

I'd like to see this debate, but please get an independent moderator to facilitate the discussion.

@periurban

5 жыл бұрын

@Score Mix See, that's why they need a mod!

@CraftAero

5 жыл бұрын

@@periurban I fully agree. Although I have some pre-disposed opinions on the matter, these two GIANTS outweigh them in every way. As a seasoned P.Eng myself (Mech) I'd volunteer to provide transparent and well experienced moderation if they'd like.

@periurban

5 жыл бұрын

@@CraftAero You should approach them.

@csabesz78

5 жыл бұрын

James Randi, please :)))

@HillsWorkbench

5 жыл бұрын

Yes but this moderator better be technically astute enough, and have a good BS detector.

So I'm guessing Paul never took you up on your offer? I heard he also said he was going to make a video demonstrating the audible difference between cheap and expensive cables, but that never happened either. In his response to you, he also laughably claimed that EMI isn't electrical. Then what the heck does he think the E stands for!?

@EthanWiner

2 жыл бұрын

All good points, and No, Paul never accepted. He said he would initially, then reneged.

Well I am glad I found this. Thanks and I will be going through your back log of videos. Great to see some real tech/experts/engineers talking about these things. Regardless of Pauls views as a man of logic I am yet to be convinced of the cable myth(s). look forward to following your channel.

I watch Paul the same way I watch Borat. It is a character that says outrageous stuff and some gullible people think it is reality. Love your keyboard.

Looks like Paul chickened out

@robertm.5816

4 жыл бұрын

Who really gives a F--K, just sit back and enjoy the music!

@pepesworld2995

4 жыл бұрын

@@robertm.5816 mixing & mastering is one of those things that never gets the credit it deserves cos its the art of hiding flaws so ya never knew they were there, & never knew what went into making it right.

@Ethan: I’ve always wondered if you can measure stereo imagining and separation. There must be a way to quantify that, right?

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

Yes, but that has nothing to do with measuring fidelity. Imaging is a function of echoes and reverb, either embedded in the recorded source or from reflections in your room. There's nothing a power amp or wire etc can do to affect imaging.

@theosamma3a60

5 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner Would I not be correct in saying that varying amounts of crosstalk between one cable and the next could affect imaging and separation?

@bambampepe

4 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner Hello Ethan, very informative your videos. Thanks. Regarding "Imaging" I have seen the term "Soundstage" .... Is "Imaging" and "Soundstage" the same thing? I guess "Soundstage" is more related to the position of instruments? In many Beatles albums you can clearly hear guitars on one speaker and vocals on the other speaker... I guess thats "Soundstage" while I think "Imaging" is what you already mentioned a function of echoes and reverb? Im a bit confused but Im sure you are right about "Imaging". Thanks will continue wathching your videos it is so refreshing to find sense and honesty in all this audio world. Thanks a lot!

A debate would be very interesting. Just a glimpse of light into a matter that is elusive to many of us. With respectful arguments and keeping an open mind this could be very instructive and revealing. I salute the initiative and I believe that having a well conducted debate could be beneficial to all parts. Much respect to both parts of the argument. We all are interested in the best representation of sound and music, and that’s what drives the passion on both parts.

"Hi, I'm Paul. I work at an audio manufacturing company and I rely on things I specifically *can't* measure to construct my products." That's a good resume stuffer.

LOVE THIS. How can we, the KZread audience, help to make this happen? It needs to happen.

When I purchase interconnects , my criteria is a decent build quality and the appropriate length , this minimises the chance i will need to replace them in the future. But that's just me.

It’s the hi-fi, audiofool crowd… headphone cable is another one..

I’m subscribed to both channels. Even though I like Paul’s attitude of making everything clean, good looking and the best quality possible, I’m really repelled by his ambiguous answers on meta-physics questions with his personal belief in the end. This is why I think that a well structured dialogue between these two channels is a win-win.

@csabesz78

5 жыл бұрын

@ THD is outdated. Science have developed much better metrics. google nonlinear distortion audibility.

@antoniolucena7304

5 жыл бұрын

Denis In your dreams....

@antoniolucena7304

5 жыл бұрын

Cool Audio Hacks Whatever... the claim is : you cannot measure sound... omg what does a Analogue to digital converter (ADC) do? what is the data that comes out from a ADC other then sound in the time domain? in other words sound pressure being measured and quantized 1 Giga times per second ( on a simple normal 1GSPS scope). unfortunnatly this discussion will never end ...there is an all industry being fed on ignorance. I think it would be better to assume this expensive gear is no more than pieces of art, not techicaly superior, but beautiflly crafted with art and good (expensive) taste. Does Mona Lisa reproduces its subject better than an ordinary modern camera would? course not but is not the reason why it is so valuable, right. its about art... So please be at least inteligent and play on your areas of comfort and expertise... don’t mix science with beliefs... I think every loudspeaker / amp dont need to cost more than 1k to reproduce more than what you are able to hear. You may put diamonds on it and it will be more expensive...Still read the same measurements... but it may sound better... placebo effect

@mypulse9

5 жыл бұрын

@@antoniolucena7304 Agreed. I'm pretty sure Paul knows about this video but he purposely ignores it.

@antoniolucena7304

5 жыл бұрын

Denis exactly!

Impossible to measure. But Paul, how do you even construct something you cant quantify or measure? Its not electrical....you got that right. Its placebo. :)

@grandrapids57

3 жыл бұрын

Mr. Gowan addressed the question of "impossible to measure"in audio because there are not yet electrical tools that can duplicate how the human ears, inside a head, and then finally by the brain processes signals to create hearing.

Thx for the great work and videos!!. i will follow your channel from now on.

A debate would be very interesting to say the least 👍🏼

I would love to see/hear that debate. I often talk-up acoustical treatments on videos such as those posted by Paul and other "audioholics" and "audiophile" channels. They don't seem to want to deal with acoustical treatment much at all. I get the impression that acoustical treatment is considered an annoyance, at best, by companies who profit more from selling "audio magic" with active components rather than passive "audio magic" which rarely breaks or becomes obsolete. Be careful, audio fans. Acoustical treatment has made my living room/theater/home studio sound so good, I never want to leave.

@DuanePortal

5 жыл бұрын

RB so true and well said. For my listening room, no amount of magic products or electronic upgrades came close to what proper acoustical treatment has done.

@cranestance8316

5 жыл бұрын

Everybody already knows acoustic treatment, speaker positioning, listening position etc, is essential in getting the best listening experience. McGowen often talks about this... however, I've never heard him mention "audio magic". Electronics, cables, speakers, room treatments.... it ALL makes a difference!

@rb032682

5 жыл бұрын

@@cranestance8316 - Yet few people understand that acoustics play the biggest roll in what the listener hears. I'm speaking about home use in rooms which are roughly "living room" size, home theater, home recording studio, etc.

@rb032682

5 жыл бұрын

@@cranestance8316 - Most audio sales people don't specifically mention "audio magic" but it is heavily implied. How many audio sales people ever mention "acoustic treatment" to their customers?

@jimolson9671

5 жыл бұрын

RB I agree 100%! I bought a lot of bass traps my current traps etc. from Ethan. Made a world of difference in my listening experience! This is far more important to me than any kind of cable measurement!

He's (Paul) not going to publicly debate this issue.

@RandyShirley

5 жыл бұрын

You don't bother to debate with fools.

@thegoat164

4 жыл бұрын

@@RandyShirley Paul is the fool.

You are a treasure Ethan! You have saved me a lot of money through the years and made me confident that my electronics are good enough, now I can focus on the music. Also, I've recorded several albums in pro studios with different bands. I definitely recognize the studio mistake you mention from time to tlme to Illustrate the placebo effect. You know where you tweak a vocal or guitar part for hours, upping the treble, adding reverb, echo or what-have-you. Finally you're satisfied. Much better! No, turns out the tweaking was done on the wrong channel on the board or the effect wasn't even turned on. Happened several times and on each occasion we were 3 to 5 people in the studio hearing massive improvements that didn't exist. It's insane that the mainstream opinion in home audio/hifi is based on pure bullshit. Walk in to a hifi shop and you're instantly harangued by a salesman claiming you need more expensive cables and that you can get more "detail" and "a bigger soundstage" with a more expensive amp.

@EthanWiner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the nice note, Felix.

@felixfranzen7318

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Ethan! I remember having a hard time accepting the objective mindset when it comes to home audio at first. Especially that all competently designed hifi amps sounds the same (when operated below clipping). Being a musician and rock guitar player first I assumed that amplifiers do have have a sonic signature and a large impact (as a guitar amp has when you're actually creating the music). It didn't help that my brother, several friends and (seemingly) every mainstream audio magazine appeared to be convinced that everything from amps and cd-transports to digital cables make a profound and obvious difference. A couple of unnecessary purchases, a significant amount of money (to me) spent, a growing suspicion plus some testing later it became obvious. Everyones either deluded or full of shit. You're making everyone a great service by pushing back against the self-appointed esoteric high priests and teaching people what really matters, both in home and pro audio. I fear a lot of young people might be scared away (by the high prices and snobbish attitude of the pseudo experts that is) and less likely to pursue good sound in their living rooms, studios or musical projects if it were not for people like you. I know I almost was when starting out. Btw, I just bought your book. Looking forward to reading it. And btw a second time, I'm also a great lover of cats. We (my wife and I) just learned that our beautiful 10 year old cat lady suffers from asthma (she had a bad cough). Fortunately that's very treatable and we're giving her medicine now. And that's thanks to science and science minded vets! If we had been listening to the veterinary equivalent of audiofools we've might ended up giving our beloved kitty a homeopathic cure or some other mumbo-jumbo.

@felixfranzen7318

2 жыл бұрын

By the Ethan I've got a question for you. The main factors deciding the perceived sound of a particular headphone would be frequency response, distortion and channel matching right? Why is it that open back headphone sounds more spacious and well open than a closed backs even when the fr and distortion specs are similar? Or do they actually? Is the preference for open back headphones also entirely subjective? Or could the difference be explained by frequency response after all? Or put another way. I were to take a typical and well regarded closed back headphone like the AKG371 and eq it to the Harman target and then do the same with a good open backed hp like the Sennheiser HD600 would there be any difference or will they sound exactly the same?

@EthanWiner

2 жыл бұрын

I'm not a headphones expert, but my understanding is that open back types don't have strong reflections coming back to the driver cone. And the cone is not sealed in a tiny cavity. So if they sound different, then their frequency responses are in fact different. They'd have to be!

@felixfranzen7318

2 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner Thanks Ethan. That sounds logical. So then. If you have a headphone with low distortion that takes well to EQ it should't really matter if the design is open or not. I have a couple of really good closed backs and was thinking of buying an open set as well. But now it seems I really don't need to. You just saved me some money (which I intended to spend at a nice italian restaurant with my lady instead).

If we were to put said cables in a forest and no one was around, would they sound different?

I love audio, and home theater, but sadly most of it is a total carnival con. Paul's videos are exhibit A. I totally understand wanting nice stuff, but aside from the audio jewlery approach to audio gear, there's no benefit to the technology over most of the gear you find off the shelf at the local big box. Audio science is a very mature technology. Most of what you'll find today was known in the 70s, and little if anything has improved. What has improved if anything has more to do with implementation of domesticated reproduction, and not the implementation of the component engineering. There's no secret sauce that Paul has in his amps/dacs/pres etc.

While I like Paul's videos, I think you're right, he does indeed believe in a lot of "voodoo" and questionable opinions. I would certainly like this public debate to happen, it would be very interesting to see whether it can change Paul's opinion and maybe even lead to changes in how PS Audio designs their products.

@davidlong1786

3 жыл бұрын

"Believe" is perhaps giving him too much benefit of doubt since he is in the business of selling wire. You don't have to have any faith or belief in what you sell to make money, just convince others to buy it.

@njm1971nyc

9 ай бұрын

PS Audio would go bankrupt in a matter of days if the truth was revealed! Ain't gonna happen, is it?!

hello Ethan winer from Australia i don't know if you can answer this question is any danger leave preamp and power amp on standby 24/7 or is better to put audio of when finish listen to music what is best thank you

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

I turn off my audio gear (and my computer) when I'm not using them. If I'll be back in an hour or less I'll leave it on.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

@LD Blake I turn on my computer and audio gear around 10:00 am when I start my day. Not all my audio gear, just the stuff I need to play music and sound from KZread videos etc. If I'll be doing music work that day I turn on my big rig once when I start, then off when I'm all done. At the end of the day I turn it all off, around 5:00 or so. When we watch TV In the evening over dinner and then after dinner, I power up everything - a receiver, active speakers, active sub, and either a TV set (while eating) or big screen projector (after dinner with the lights down). Then I turn it all off when we go to bed. I think most people are like this, as opposed to turn on the computer, work for ten minutes, turn it off, then back on again half an hour later. Yes, that's not good. If I have to go out for a few hours but plan to come back to work, I turn off the LCD computer monitor but leave the PC running. My comment was mostly to address the belief that electronics should be left on 24/7. A lot of people believe that! I disagree, and I've been doing it my way for about 55 years with no problems or early failure.

I would never spend thousands of dollars on a pair of speaker cables...but if I did, I would swear that I can hear a difference because i'm not going to admit I wasted money.

Hey Ethan, i see this posting, INSTANT SUBSCRIBER!👍

"No culture in human history ever suffered because its people became too reasonable or too desirous of having evidence in defense of their core beliefs." - Sam Harris

@noahbirdrevolution

4 жыл бұрын

The first half of that quote is one thing and the second another. "Desirous" of having evidence in relation to "core beliefs" is fine and dandy if those core beliefs are relatable to your own. Core beliefs could involve sacrificing a whole population because in the long run it will solve global warming and food shortages according to evidence on hand; but is it actually morally correct? People and cultures would indeed suffer. Sam is smart and probably meant well, but the quote is messy and probably missing context. I give it a 2 out of 10.

So when is the debate ? I have been waiting.....

@rogerlavallee3572

2 жыл бұрын

Ethan Winer indicated in a reply to this same question early on from another commenter that Paul McGowan initially agreed to the debate, but subsequently changed his mind and backed out.

I’ve been a recording and mixing engineer for over a decade now, and only recently come across these comments from so-called audiophiles. It seems like a toxic club who have zero respect for highly trained ears (I’m talking putting your whole life on the line to train your ears and be competitive in the audio world, which takes years). Hearing is subjective from person to person, yes, and this is what makes null tests the definitive arbiter of comparisons between audio signals. This channel reminds me of my brief foray into the audiophile equipment world, and it was disappointing to say the least. With all respect to those making genuinely HQ equipment of course.

@EthanWiner

9 ай бұрын

Thanks Dimitri, great post.

You have my full support!!

Why not find two cables that measure the same, sound different (according to Paul) and then have a blind listening test?

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

There's no such thing as two wires (or anything else) that measure the same but sound different.

@Simon-dn9kv

5 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner just because two wires measure the same and you don't hear a difference doesn't proof that others also don't hear a difference. Edit: instead of throwing claims at each other the whole thing could so easily be settled with a blind listening test

@Simon-dn9kv

5 жыл бұрын

@LD Blake if the difference is just imaginary, then again a blind listening test will solve this. Also, what makes you so sure that not hearing a difference is not a trick by your brain as well, because you DON'T want to hear a difference?

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

@@Simon-dn9kv Yes, a blind test is fine, but even better is my Null Tester demo that *proves* all four wires I compared sound the same, with no chance that "others" might hear a difference: kzread.info/dash/bejne/jK2L1pWkcbGnY7Q.html

@Simon-dn9kv

5 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner The brain is able to notice differences which shouldn't make a difference, like lowering the noise floor from -180db to -200db, which Rob Watts did proof. Now I'm wondering, would your Null Test be able to detect said noise floor difference?

I want Ethan, Paul, Danny Richie, and Amir from Audio Science Resesrch all locked into an escape room. That would be hilarious to watch.

Retired musician and electronics engineer here. Built my own system from the ground up, a continuing work of love that has spanned some five decades and began when I was in high school. Every iteration teaches me lots of stuff, gives me much pleasure and sounds absolutely wonderful without the application of any snake-oil, 10g electrical cable sounds just great! To date, the journey has led to an ST-120 amp with KT-88s, VOTT enclosures with carefully chosen inexpensive drivers, and DIY passive crossover and a Raspberry Pi/AlloBoss DAC. All built by yours truly.

@EthanWiner

Жыл бұрын

Excellent, thanks for sharing.

When ps audio started selling the noise harvester, I switched off

After one of PS Audio's $6K USD DACs was performance analysied, and found to be less than SOTA (a $99 USD barebones one outperforms it) despite its marketing to contrary, and the subsequent confidence game they tried to run as an explanation about that, I seriously doubt that Paul will take you up on the debate. He's well aware that anyone with even a basis understanding of technology will see the flaws in his arguments.

Even tube amplifiers vs solid state amplifiers would sound the same with then null tester?

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

Oh no! Did you watch the Null Tester video? A good solid state amplifier will have distortion less than 0.01 percent, which equates to -80 dB. But even really good tube amps have trouble trying to beat 1 percent distortion over the audio range. So that would yield a very obvious residual difference.

@johnolson4977

4 жыл бұрын

Ethan Winer Thanks for updating this guys Statement, Thanks for teaching us

In the words of Richard Dawkins: "Science, it works. Bitches!"

I would love to see some of the systems belonging to the people in this comment section.

@golfhead54

5 жыл бұрын

Marantz SA8005 CD player, Classe' Audio preamp/ amp, Sonus Faber Auditor M speakers, canare 4s11 speaker cables. MidFi by most standards.

@googoo-gjoob

5 жыл бұрын

Musical Fidelity DAC, Transport & Dual mono integrated. B&W 804d2.

@MrGorpm

5 жыл бұрын

Tidal - Chord DAC - Cambridge CXA60 - Epos ES11. Very basic but musical system.

@02585975

5 жыл бұрын

Hard Drive speaker

@alandang3505

5 жыл бұрын

mag 1981 I have an excellent system, in fact I have about 5 audiophile systems . Most of my components have been on a class A rated reviewers guide. I just look at Ethan's videos when I want to get a laugh at a "box wine person" who thinks he is saving money because his ripple gets you drunk for less money than a bottle of Veve Cliquot ( the buzz ain't the same) . I think most people who own crap sounding systems love Ethan because they think somehow their systems are as good as much more expensive ones. Ethan's advice is good for making her public address systems in the NYC subways, but not for sound enjoyment. And Ethan's association with with Tufts just shows he found a person with a greater level of ignorance there.

Thanks, Mr. Winer, for your informative and learned views. Always fun to rattle the tubes of tweaks.

So did you guys actually have a debate? I can’t see it anywhere but I’d love to watch it if it existed

@EthanWiner

2 жыл бұрын

Initially Paul agreed, but when I tried to set it up he reneged. No real surprise.

I don't think I'll be able to post links, but on AudioScienceReview, the editor just posted a review called "Review and Measurements of the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC". He concluded: "Nothing prepared me for the disaster that unfolded in front of me in test after test." In over 175 DACs tested, this DAC placed third-worst in S/N and distortion ratio! There was so much distortion and noise in this product that it was laughable. It was actually only a 10 bit DAC! Maybe this is no surprise given Paul McGowan's attitude, but nevertheless... The website also previously tested the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC, which at $7000 tested better in some areas and just as bad in others.

@EthanWiner

4 жыл бұрын

To some people a 10-bit DAC with high distortion probably sounds better than a real DAC. Even a $25 SoundBlaster sound card can do 20 bits or more.

@mcnyregrus

4 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner Yeah, it's a bit shocking. "Sounds good to me" and "how it sounds is more important than how it measures!" has become the mantra for many people, who then start preaching how great something is because of their preference for distortion and a non-linear frequency response, and because of how much they paid for it. It's actually quite sad rather than ridiculous :-/. So maybe it's no surprise that PS Audio measures so poorly.

@EthanWiner

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, it's one thing to say "I like the sound of vinyl," but just wrong to then believe that vinyl has higher fidelity than CDs.

I remember when stereo review did their double blind tests back in the 80's and no one could reliably pick 12guage speaker wire when compared to expensive cable. And they did another test where they couldn't reliably pick between the sound of a Pioneer receiver and a Mark Levinson Class A amp.

@davidlong1786

3 жыл бұрын

Then it all changed when the ad revenue fell because the high priced manufacturers got their panties in a wad.

@trevordyson8882

2 жыл бұрын

Those people just didn't have "sensitive enough ears" - kidding.

@gulfcoastrailroad5625

2 жыл бұрын

Funny , I'm running an entry level 2018 Pioneer VSX-522 receiver in my hi fi and I wouldn't trade it for ANYTHING, it's absolutely transparent, smooth as silk, perfect bass, perfect mids, perfect highs, perfect soundstage, perfect depth, non detectable noise or distortion, no glare, tizz, opaqueness, no listening fatigue, no coloration, . . it does EVERYTHING the ridiculously expensive pre amp/ power Amp setups do, and just as well. Now if I hit the lottery and could afford Wilson Audio speakers then of COURSE I'd partner them with a higher priced front end , probably Dan D'Agastino or Constellation or such. . . But would I be gaining anything in all those aforementioned parameters?. . .probably not, only sheer power to drive the bigger speakers and more electricity used to listen to the system. . . Pioneer receiver + Paradigm top end speakers = end game for many lucky listeners😎

@Harald_Reindl

2 жыл бұрын

It's simple - the resistance of a fucking speaker cable is meaningless in the chain and even if it don't matter because it is linear - so a piece more on the volume control would make it gone - idiots waste money for cables, smart people nail the money on walls for acoustics which is 50% of what you hear

Speaker cables sound different, from copper cable, silver coated copper cables and thin cables like door bell cable.

@vintageflanker7096

4 жыл бұрын

What you're comparing then is the resistance, not the cable material...

@Justwantahover

4 жыл бұрын

But can you explain how they "sound different"? In treble content etc. or in volume? No response means you are imagining things. If you CAN actually answer I might believe you. But if you can't explain how it sounds "different" then obviously it just doesn't.

I know this video is specifically about the null tester, but I wonder what Ethan thinks of the sound quality of today's PS Audio equipment. Have you heard it Mr. Winer? Do you think it's good stuff? I think your Damn Lies video is great and it's my favorite myth busting video about audio. I would love to see a video from you about the myths of sampling rate, bit depth and data compression.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

I've never heard any of Paul's products but I assume the legit ones work as advertised. I wouldn't buy any "power" product from him, and certainly not a power wire. And I'd never in a million dollars spend the kind of money he charges for a power amp. $15,000 for a power amp no better than a Crown that costs $800? LOL, no way. Same for a $7,000 DAC. What sort of insane gullible sucker would pay that sort of money? When audiophiles ask in forums or Facebook what DAC to get, I suggest the $100 Focusrite USB Solo. It's clean enough to be audibly transparent, and it also has a microphone preamp so you can record with it if needed, for example to do room measurements.

Hi, can you tell me what instrument can measure soundstage, depth, layering? I think with your years of experience, this will be an easy question.

@EthanWiner

3 жыл бұрын

One way to measure width is with a phase correlation meter. Mixing engineers use this to assess mono compatibility, to ensure that no elements will drop out when a stereo mix is reduced to mono. For example over AM radio or for music on hold. But generally, width and sound stage, or whatever you like to call it, is all about left-right channel differences. Mono music has no width at all, of course. A common technique in rock music is to have the rhythm guitar player play the same part twice. Then one track is panned hard left and the other hard right. Because these are different performances the two parts are never exactly in sync. And this creates a huge very wide sound. I've done similar using a rhythm guitar on one side and an electric piano on the other. Both are playing the same chords but, again, the differences create a very pleasing wide sound. In fact, this can be *too* wide, so it's common to pull the two parts in a little so they're not panned fully left and fully right.

@EthanWiner

3 жыл бұрын

I'll add that classical music is often recorded with two main microphones, then additional "spot" mics are placed close to softer instruments like the harp, or a soloist playing a concerto. But the main mics pick up different parts of the orchestra, and the natural reverb they capture is also different left and right. When mixing pop music we almost always use stereo reverb, and that can make even a single performer placed in the middle sound large and wide.

@justanotheryoutubeuser5029

3 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner thank you for the answer. The reason i ask is because i have 2 amplifiers, one is cheap and the other one is a little more expensive. I can test it over and over, and know which has better depth and layering. If i use that correlation meter, will that show the difference in amps? Also is there an acceptable measure for depth and layering using the correlation meter?

@EthanWiner

3 жыл бұрын

Thinking about this further, width isn't something you'd usually measure directly, but you could. If you subtract the left and right channels, similar to how my Null Tester works, whatever remains is the difference amount. If the left and right channels are totally different, then the width is at maximum. So I guess this "measurement" would be expressed as a percentage of the sum of the left and right channels. This video explains my Null Tester in detail: kzread.info/dash/bejne/jK2L1pWkcbGnY7Q.html

@EthanWiner

3 жыл бұрын

There's nothing an amplifier type circuit can do to affect the width or depth of music. Width and depth are related to left-right channel differences as I already mentioned, and also the strength and timing of reflections, both single echoes and reverb (which is just more and denser echoes). Assuming both of your amplifiers are working correctly, I'll bet you $100 that you would not be able to tell which one sounds "wider" in a proper blind test.

How interesting! I have been listening to Paul for some time now, and I am very interested to hear your perspectives Ethan. I work in spectral (visible and non-visible) imaging, specifically in collection and analysis for agricultural research. In every case, the limitations of my sensor determine what I can measure, and in every case there is always far more there than what I can collect across a number of dimensions (spectral, time, spatial). The concept of measuring truly Everything seems nearly impossible, as no real measuring device has or claims to have zero error; I can see the debate having a hard time concluding what is good enough for an audio experience. Statisticians spend their entire careers dealing these exact issues.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

You need to watch the Null Tester video linked in the video description above. If you watch the entire video you'll see that it *proves* there are no differences in the four wires compared. So Paul is wrong that not everything can be measured.

@Adriana21709

5 жыл бұрын

I agree Zero Defects. We simply don’t have the means as of this moment to measure everything when it comes to sound and how we perceive sound. We simply don’t know how certain circuitry and wire make ups can affect how we perceive the sound.

@zerodefcts

5 жыл бұрын

​@@EthanWiner I finally had the opportunity to sit down and watch the video, and it is a fantastic device and experiment. I really enjoy how the device is able to detect such tiny differences (e.g. heat) as you demonstrate it in use. I was only skeptical of the additional filtering to "remove ultrasonic error from the device" without more explanation (but you mention you will improve it in production). I am also a little confused about the "Null Dial" and how that needs to be adjusted to "find a null" and we are left to wonder what this setting means to your results, furthering this concern, I wonder how often it must be adjusted during an experiment. It seems as if these are countermeasures that are only in place to generate a more silent null output result. I believe that your results are very informative. I feel as if this device is an excellent B.S. detector, and its ability to give a real time demonstration can be powerful. There are some questions about the device that I imagine would be answered in a more detailed article.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

@@Adriana21709 Sorry but you are wrong. Everything audible can be measured. Not only measured, but measured to a resolution much finer than anyone's ears. Even basic test gear can measure noise and distortion 20-30 dB softer than anyone can hear. You claimed, "We simply don’t have the means as of this moment to measure everything when it comes to sound and how we perceive sound." That sounds like you have actual experience with this, but you obviously don't. Though to be clear, all I address is audio equipment, not how people perceive sound. That falls under psychoacoustics, and it too can be known. But that's not what this is about.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

@@zerodefcts watch the video again and you'll see that I show both a block diagram of the tester with its Null dial, and also the schematic which is simple enough to follow.

You should have a 3rd party moderator.

@AndyBHome

5 жыл бұрын

@@grandmasmalibu - genius! Perhaps you could channel the ghost of Charleston Heston for the debate?

@genez429

5 жыл бұрын

@@grandmasmalibu Fortunately, not many people are going to get suckered into buying $5000 power cords. If they can? Why worry about them? They will not see poverty as you seemed so concerned about. Look at Pangea power cords. Not very expensive and can make a nice difference. That is, if your system is transparent enough to find out.

@cengeb

5 жыл бұрын

@@genez429 Pangea, oh, so those are the ones that make a difference!!!! And of course, the all encompassing, IF your system , blah blah blah...if it's such a great improvement, it should be heard on anything. If ya play a CD on any stereo, and play the vinyl version of the same album, wanna bet the CD will sound cleaner, cleaner, snap, pop and no Fremeritis artifacts

@cbcdesign001

5 жыл бұрын

@@genez429 Meaningless waffle. Power cables, I.e. an inexpensive properly rated simple 3 core mains cable will work just as well as an expensive one. That is a scientific fact and easily provable using modern test equipment.

@genez429

5 жыл бұрын

@@cbcdesign001 On your system it will.

Hi Ethan, I was just wondering if I could get your opinion on something. I got into audio a few years back when I bought an entry level AV receiver and a pair of bookshelf speakers. I've since upgraded the speakers and will be upgrading again in the near future. I wondered about upgrading my amplifier when I upgrade the speakers so I searched Google for "AV receiver vs stereo amp". It seems I stumbled across the worlds largest can of worms because some people were claiming the difference is night and day while others were saying all amps sound the same. I researched the topic some more and came across various blind studies one of which involved an affordable stereo amp, source and cables being compared against a top of the line stereo amp, source and cables (unfortunately I couldn't find a blind comparison of a multi channel AV receiver vs a stereo amp). It seems this study is often sited in arguments on forums. The basic idea is that any competently designed amplifier when run within its limits (not close to or actually clipping) is indistinguishable from another regardless of price (or exotic cables etc). Do you subscribe to this belief and what would you consider a "competent" amplifier. Basically, if I could go with an AV receiver, it would make my life a whole lot simpler as I have numerous devices, some of which use HDMI. However, the speakers I want to buy are a big step up in terms of quality and I don't want them to be held back by an amplifier that doesn't do them justice. It's difficult to find objective tests of AV amps and hi-fi amps as the vast majority of reviews are entirely subjective in nature and carried out by the same people that believe cables make a difference in sound quality.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

Yes, most modern audio electronic devices are clean enough to be "transparent," so by definition they all sound the same. Of course, power amps vary by how much power they can output. So a 25 watt amp driven into distortion won't sound the same as a 300 watt amp that remains undistorted. In the larger picture, the best way to assess audio products is by their published specs rather than listening which is fraught with problems. This video explains all about how audio fidelity is defined and measured: kzread.info/dash/bejne/jKqd1MeuYratirA.html

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

There's also a huge amount of information about this large topic on my web site Articles page. Not just how audio works and is measured, but several articles explaining *why* people believe they hear differences that don't really exist: ethanwiner.com/articles.html

@napalmhardcore

5 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner Thank you very much for the reply. I appreciate it.

When you do a null test do you do a full bandwidth, high resolution measurement?ie do you in fact validate that there are truly zero artifacts left over? Many higher harmonics are low amplitude by nature, just curious if you are controlling for this

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

LOL, if you watch the video you'll see exactly how this all works. And the answer is Yes, the null test absolutely proves the point.

@steveg219

5 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner I saw you demonstrate the null via speaker playback and the video recording mic but did not see a detailed spectrum analysis of the null resultant, ie have you ruled out low level harmonic differences, this would not be evident on a VU meter and perhaps not on simply listening via a speaker especially with so much circuit noise present in the gain makeup

@steveg219

5 жыл бұрын

LD Blake ok but just asking if that was measured and quantified, just a basic question about control conditions not disputing anything

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

@@steveg219 All that remained in the null residual is noise, none of the music. That's shown clearly on the 'scope display. I don't even know what "low level harmonic differences" means.

@steveg219

5 жыл бұрын

Ethan Winer lets say harmonics in the program material at 10k we’re not perfectly cancelled by the null and remained at very low levels, That could account for two wires sounding different to the ear. Again, not disputing, just asking if these conditions were controlled for

It's about time someone challenged the well meaning nonsense being circulated by people like Paul. Paul is immensely likeable and quite obviously genuine in his beliefs. It's a great pity for us that he's so deluded and that they are so demonstrably wrong, because they are costing the consumer unnecessary money. In one of Paul's more ludicrous videos he asserted that adding a valve pre-amplifier into the listening chain somehow 'improved' fidelity. It was utter nonsense and threw into question Paul's definition of just what his mystical 'fidelity' is. I have an idea. Added distortion byproducts equals increased fidelity in Paul's world. The euphonious sounding mid range of valve amplifiers has to do with the fact that unlike transistor amplification valve amplification distortion byproducts are harmonically related to the signal causing that distortion, thus enriching (and by the way distorting) the original timbre. To Paul who clearly believes in hi-fi fairies this is mystically increased 'fidelity', to anyone with half a brain, it's nice sounding added distortion. Given a choice between Ethan Winer and Paul McGowan if sense is the criteria I know who I'd choose.

God bless Ethan....a truly excellent guy who shows the truth.

Is Paul saying that something beyond frequency, amplitude and phase describes a sound wave that we are unaware of? Or is he saying that we don't have test instruments that are fully capable of measuring frequency, amplitude and phase to levels required when doing signal analysis work on audio electronics?

@TheeAudiophileMan

5 жыл бұрын

@LD Blake yep you are preaching to the choir here. Signal analysis on the voltages we send to our speakers is a basic and fundamental process for those of us who are in the field.

How much would you offer as a prize if someone could positively identify one specific set of interconnects consistently throughout a blind test that rotates through several different brands?

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

James Randi offered $1 Million, and so far 20(?) years later not one person has stepped forward to try to claim it.

@bentonpix

5 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner Somehow I don't think that James Randi would allow the correct identification of interconnects as part of his psychic challenge. I used to be able to identify different interconnects with pretty good accuracy, but my hearing isn't what it used to be, but I do know someone that can absolutely pick interconnects out with much better than 50/50 odds. Where are you located? If Paul McGowan doesn't accept your offer, maybe the guy I know will. And concerning James Randi's challenge, you might find this article an interesting read: www.dailygrail.com/2008/02/the-myth-of-the-million-dollar-challenge/

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

@@bentonpix I'm in western Connecticut, and I'm glad to have anyone who believes they can "hear" wires visit me for a lesson in why they can't. :->)

@bentonpix

5 жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner The person I'm thinking of lives in NJ, so it's not an impossible meeting. So if they correctly identify their cable (which is their own design) out of a random line up that you provide, you'd have to chalk it up to luck? Or do you have to first find a nulled match of that cable in order not to be able to hear any difference?

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

@@bentonpix Yes, the first hurdle is ensuring the wires null, which I'm sure they will unless it's some goofy wire with a Bybee type lump in the middle to intentionally color the sound. So once that's satisfied, I'll swap wires while your friend listens, and he has to be correct every time. For a 1.6% confidence you have to be right least six times out of six. To reduce the odds of guessing correctly to only 0.8% requires being right seven times in a row.

Just a question: Ethan, how do you know that you can measure everything you can hear?

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

You need to watch the Null Tester video linked in the video description above. If you watch the entire video you'll see that it *proves* there are no differences in the four wires compared. So Paul is wrong that not everything can be measured.

@rabarebra

Жыл бұрын

@@EthanWiner This means that Paul doesn't know for sure what he designs.

Keep up the good work Ethan. Not so long ago there was no need to debunk the myriad of myths surrounding the audio (especially high end) industry which was once based on objectivity and the scientific method. When distortion, response and noise were no longer issues even in the most modestly priced hardware, the high end segment had to rely upon cock & bull BS in order to justify its "raison d'etre". Those engaging in this type of activity might well be described as "audio whores" who, rather than educating, instead choose to exploit the underinformed. Well I guess the economy needs its sheep and those taking advantage of them would've made Jordan Belfort proud.

@EthanWiner

4 жыл бұрын

I could not agree more with everything you said!

Is there really a unit of measurement for the envelope of a transient? Just curious. I know we can analyze waveforms, but that really doesn't always tell us a whole lot for complex ones outside of amplitude and background noise.

@EthanWiner

5 жыл бұрын

What LD said, and also Rise Time.

"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing." - Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, HH Scott

@EthanWiner

29 күн бұрын

Yes, but if it measures good but sounds bad, again you measured the wrong things. Comprehensive measurements are difficult to do, and extremely rare in sales brochures and advertisements. Much more here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/jKqd1MeuYratirA.html

@MrNeverlift

29 күн бұрын

@@EthanWiner I sold hi end in the 70's and 80's. I always found the quote both true, amusing and still relevant today.

If amplifiers sound different, that literally means different pressure waves were created, thus scientifically measurable. If not measurable, you got placebo'd.

@JensHove

2 жыл бұрын

Yup, Paul is not looking good here.

If only humans were as logical, linear and objective as electric signals :-)

@HyperOpticalSaint

4 жыл бұрын

Since you can't know an electron's velocity and speed at same time...

how does one measure soundstage, instrument separation?

@EthanWiner

4 жыл бұрын

This is from my article in the current issue of audioXpress magazine. The entire article will be on their web site in a few more weeks: It’s important to mention that sound stage and imaging have nothing to do with electronics. There's nothing a preamp or wire etc can do to affect imaging, though frequency response changes can affect apparent depth slightly, with less treble making instruments and voices sound farther back. The width and depth of stereo placement, and imaging effects, are mostly a function of echoes and reverb in the original source recording. Untamed reflections in your own listening room can only damage imaging. Further, contrary to popular belief stereo width can be measured. The device that does this is called a Phase Correlation Meter, and it shows the amount and phase of left-right channel differences. Recording studios use this to verify mono compatibility, to ensure that nothing in a stereo recording will be lost if the two channels are reduced to mono.

@EthanWiner

4 жыл бұрын

As for "instrument separation" I need you to explain exactly what that is before I can answer. Wording like that means different things to different people.

Obviously Paul has not heard of the Carver challenge... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver