I know this is an old video but the fine attention to detail and the many methods you test to distinguish each variable as a potential problem for causing hang fires earned a subscribe from me. You go above and beyond to test everything for future reloaders or even seasoned reloaders to not find themselves in this same situation so thank you. Id like to get into reloading when i can afford it so these videos are priceless for an up and coming reloader.

God I miss you Johnny

'Flash hole'... I think I chuckled every time you said that Johnny...

I really like how detailed you get in your videos. Happy shooting

Straight up no BS thought provoking videos. Awesome stuff man!

Brisance is the word you were looking for to describe primer hotness, and how the flame front travels through the primer hole and the powder column. Looking forward to your follow up freezer test.

@judetorres1739

6 жыл бұрын

robbiek5oh that's what I was going to say.

Very good topic to cover. I had a hang fire (my first) last week in my 556 barreled AR, used CFE223, CCI Small Rifle Primers, Lake City brass with flashholes deburred.

This is beyond me man so I’m really excited to see how this plays out. Great stuff JRB! I’d have to say I did expect not to see any hang fires in 40°. A colder test is a great idea but equally as interesting would be a warm weather test! A great time to throw other powders in and see how temperature insensitive they really are!

Excellant video. I appreciate the detail you add!

Thanks a ton for the great follow up video. I'm glad to have seen some shooting issues, so if it ever happens to me at the range, I won't totally freak out. You do a very great job with your videos.

Good stuff. I like the various testing that you do.

I worked 12 hours straight today and attended a friend's celebration of life thank goodness for this video I been waiting this made my day when I seen it in my notifications when I got homeI'm no longer seeing straight red ty brother

@reloadeverything8695

6 жыл бұрын

Well it's 20 hrs later and I'm actually watching the video now

I use AA4350 for several cartridges. Picked up a pound of N550 a couple of years ago, planned to use in 30.06. Found in my notes that N550 and AA4350 charges are, grain for grain, equivalent. Much respect and admiration for your methods in troubleshooting.

I’m here in 2023 because I just had my first experience with hangfires. I was fire forming some new Peterson srp brass. I used 40 grains of superformance and 25 of the cases had cci br4 and other half had fed 205 match. Both had hang fires and 2 didn’t go off at all. I’m going to be pulling the bullets today if I can find a 6mm collet for my rcbs bullet puller die. Temperature outside was high 30’s low 40’s as it’s a little warm for January here in central Washington. If I knew this was a “thing” I don’t think I would have been so excited to find the srp brass! Lol. Thank you for making a video addressing this issue!

Another good video Johnny. I could here the hang fires on the video.

Hey Man you really need to make this a series playlist. I have told several people about it and always point them to only 1 video.

@JohnnysReloadingBench

5 жыл бұрын

Done! Great idea.

I remember watching a primer comparison video on YT. It showed the actual explosion out of each primer when struck. The Remington primers threw by far the most impressive flume of fire. Every time.

@jacksonthompson7099

6 ай бұрын

Hmm maybe thats why practically most load manuals use Rem 7 1/2 primers. Interesting.

CCI 200 was your best primer, with that load, without question. I know this is old and you probably know that by now! Great video!

I think the problem is case capacity and large primer pocketed brass is the fix. Good luck and great video

JRB - Interesting test...looks like you've got a good assessment on best ignition combinations after this...next test should be conclusive. FC

Lot of paths to choose, hope you get to the right one.

Great vid JRB, definitely primer and case fill related IMO. That cotton scared me also before you even shot it, but it worked out. (I would check your suppressor though for burned cotton and make sure it’s not clogged) The fact S&B primers ALL did so poorly, you could add the cotton to that load to see if it eliminates the hang fire and that would let you know if it’s the S&B primer being to cold or a case capacity issue. Im sure a bullet being stretched out close to the lands vs mag length MAY change this also as the creates different case fill and pressure. I think the fix is using large primer pocket brass for certain high energy/double based powders, especially with light charges causing low case capacity. I know a lot of people use large Magnum primers in 6.5 Creedmoor also, but since the standard large primer tested fine I would think the Large magnum primer would also. Great stuff JRB.

@Johnyrocket70

6 жыл бұрын

how can it be case related, large rounds like 50 bmg 20 & 30mm cases are half full and work fine.

As a kid growing up in Michigan, we shot rifles and shotguns in all weather. Many times, we hunted in bitter cold; temps well below freezing. I didn't reload back then, so all my rounds were factory produced. I never experienced a hang fire until I was in my 40's, when I had one in a very heavy .45 Colt deer load from a Ruger Vaquero. Powder was H110 w/CCI Magnum primers. Hunting deer with the temp somewhere above 20 degrees or so, I pulled the trigger, heard the click, and a half second later, it went off. It was all of a half second or more. Nothing like the quick ones Johnny is experiencing here in this vid. It's the first and last hangfire I've ever experienced. Since I loaded those heavy rounds, I chalked it up to a contaminated primer even though I've always been meticulous, always using tweezers to handle them. Needless to say, that's all the time my deer needed to make a quick getaway.

I think it is more likely the temperature and case fill affecting the powder more than anything else. Bigger or hotter flash from a particular primer would be helpful in lighting the reluctant powder, so there would be ignition variations induced with the changing of primers.

I got a lot of catching up to do,, I've missed the last few videos 😎

Great video as always,I get into a new cartridge being 6.5cm and you got my back with info. I placed an order from midsouth last night and I left them a big message to check you out and get behind you that it will pay dividends for them. I ordered their new sw4350 to try as well as a bunch of match burners! I hope they get behind you as an affiliate and maybe supply a little to the channel for all of us!

Smaller flash hole may also produce a venturi effect, accelerating the ignition flame/spark to a higher velocity and penetrating deeper into the column of powder. BTW, those S&B primers made the TC sound like a flintlock.

I have heard in the past the WSR is closer to a small rifle magnum primer than a standard small rilfle primer and that is why Winchester does not offer a small rifle magnum primer.

@yissnakklives8866

6 жыл бұрын

Their Large Pistol primers are even specifically labelled for both Magnum and non.

@deeremeyer1749

6 жыл бұрын

Hell, I figured its because there are no "small" MAGNUM rifle cartridges. "Magnum" is associated WITH "large powder charges" in excess of "standard" cartridges of the "long-action" variety.

This was really fun.. Thank you..

You might want to wait until the outside temperatures are identical to accurately test your hang fire remedies- in individual groups. ...combining multiple "fixes" at the same time will still leave you wondering which one was the culprit. As I said on the original video, I'm thinking it's *not* the primers- or the flash holes. It's the combination of VV powder & case capacity, and possibly cold.

I had hang fire problems with CCI 400 small rifle primer and WIN 760 powder, switched ti CCI 450 Magnum small rifle primers with same load, no more hang fires!

Johnny. this has got me baffled. I would like to think that the first thing that comes to mind is different primers have different sensitivity when struck by the firing pin, Thus affecting the ignition in lock time in the production of flame. That was the only thing I could think of, I didn't see a comparison of different rifles in the same caliber shooting the same loading. anyway, That's my theory,, I'm probably wrong. So good luck dude.

If you increase your sample size to 10 shots per rifle primer, you will increase the probability of finding a primer that might have snuck by your test without a hang fire. To me, 5 shots seems like a low sample size for testing failures. But that's just my opinion and I could be totally wrong. I'm just pretending I know something because I took a stats class a few years back in college lol. I recently subscribed about a month ago and love your videos man!

I am convinced its a case fill issue, You can clearly tell on the hang fires/delayed fires from your video (good camera and Microphone work) I dont think its a primer issue, The positioning of the powder will vary round to round based on how the cartridge is sitting in the chamber and where the powder is inside. The hotter primers might just have a better chance of igniting the small powder charge.

I allways use magnum primers on all my loads. And on subsonic 308 (fast pistol powders) its a must. Did not had any of this hang fire problems yet.

6 жыл бұрын

And 308 subs with pistol powders have a case fill of practically none.

I don't know about the freezer idea maybe just wait for another cold day. I think you'll have plenty to choose from. That being said I would stick with CCI #41 primers sins I'm sure you have plenty on hand. Federal match primers are more expensive and harder to come by but would be a good choice to. Can't argue with good groups and standard deviations.

I get the same problems with the 450s here in the UK. It's a pain in the ass!

"Here are a whole bunch of primers" **Screams in 2021 ammo shortage**

Take some of that powder and freeze it then take a torch to it and see if it turns goldish then light some room temp powder and see if there is a diffrence. Saves money on powder and still provides answers.

the worst hangfires I've ever had were when we were shooting some old military ammo (cordite loads) out of an old Enfield. It was like shooting an old flint lock--pull the trigger... wait a few... bang!!!

Late, I know. But my conclusion would be to not use that powder. No hang fires with small rifle primers and other powders is enough information for me. Even other double base powders tested did not present that problem. By-the-way, don't blame S&B primers for the hang and miss fires, it's the powder. Lapua may work, but I, for one, thank you for seeing your experience with that powder. You did make my mind up.

I had the same problem with .223, the problem was the Primer. I was using Remington 71/2.

When I am doing load development like this I actually write on the brass with a sharpie what the load is, so I can read explicitly what it is as I chamber and I don't have to worry so much about what row that round was in, whatever. Cleanup is a little alcohol on a Q-tip.

Interesting video.

This is one reason I like loading to a compressed load. If for no other reason.. factory loads are compressed and there must be a reason for it otherwise they wouldn’t waste the money on powder selection to make a compressed or full load

On the starline brass website the LR primer 6.5 brass states for reliable ignition no matter the temperature

@marcrobert2603

5 жыл бұрын

I use the starline LR with s&b primers,and shoot 5 group off less than 0.3 after each other. Inside 110Y.with my Tika tx3 tac a1. I use Ramshot Hunter fine cannelure powder. sites.google.com/view/reload-cheap-subsonic/homepage

i have started using Vhit powders recently (in the UK we are soon to loose most of the Hodgdon and IMR powders), one thing i have noticed is that for .260 rem (and 6.5 CM) the Vhit numbers are very light compared to other sites (Nosler, Reloaders Data etc), the cynic in you might thing that this was due to Vhits sister company is Lapua and anything that shows the 6.5 x47 Lapua in a poor light is to be avoided? With a better case fill I suspect that the issues with hang fires would go away? There seems be plenty of scope for increasing charge weights. Just a thought.

You have shot that rifle a lot have you pulled the bolt apart and cleaned it down to the bar bones of the bolt?

another very detailed video thank you. Thought about the powder, if you have not it pressure signs can more powder be added to fill the case and get the verbosity up to the level your seeking.

Well fug... I'm using s&b spp and star line small pocket brass with h4350 and had a hang fire and dud I attributed to still wet brass... Guess I better go pull those 40 and pick up some different primers... S&B work great in the AR, but I guess they don't have enough oomph for the 6.5

Had problems with my new 6mm creedmoor and cfe223 powder, cci 450 sr primers, starline brass and 87 gr bthp. Like it was terrible hangfires and the ones that went off right we’re good groupings.

I use the CCI 450's with Lapua brass never had a hangfire with it. I have had hangfire's with other small primer brass and wsr primers

First thing I would do is check firing pin protrusion to make sure it is in specs. Very rare for CCI to fail in my 48 years of reloading.

After seeing vid I have to ask. Do you clean brass wet or dry? Did you use a wet sizing lube? Powder clumping is wet drying out. Those clumps will a match lite as easy as loose powder?

Hornady brass has a bit more capacity than Starline (starline is notorious thick brass with less capacity) so the lower MV in the LRP brass makes sense.

Cool stuff. Hope that fiber doesn't wedge into baffles.

Thank you , someone has to do a comprensive comparison of primers

I have seen this happen in my 6.5CM if I dont get a good seating depth or the primer is a Standard Small Rifle Primer rather than a magnum SRP. Not sure why that is, but it does happen even in custom $3k rifles. The times I've seen it was always with a double-based powder and using standard SRP. Never had it happen using magnums, bench-rest, or match primers.

I could hear a slight hang fire on shots 3 and 4 of WSR. Some powders are incredibly hard to light correctly. The reason for a minimum powder charge is the amount of oxygen to powder ratio in the casing. Powder does one of three things when a primer goes off; 1, ignition, slow burning of the powder due to the lack of oxygen to burn at a predictable rate. 2. detonation is the rapid burning of the powder beyond the safe pressure "spike" resulting in excessive pressures and probable firearm destruction. 3. is not ignite at all or slowly ignite. CCI 41 primers have alot of R&D beyond most other primers and I always use them or CCI 34 for large rifle primers. I only use CCI 450 in 300 BLK due to inconsistency when using CCI 41. Your case fill velocities are a prefect example of what happens when case volume is reduced resulting in increased velocity.

@jimhans1

6 жыл бұрын

David Peterson let me just interject a couple of things here to fix some errors from what was posted. The reason for the minimum charges is that developers found their maximum charges and then lowered that number by a set percentage to come up with what would be a safe starting charge for ANY person with ANY gun, the "amount" of oxygen is immaterial since ALL of the compounds used in primers AND powders have their own oxygen/oxidizer built into them for combustion and will burn even in a complete vacuum devoid of ANY atmosphere. A hangfire is a slow or delayed initial ignition of powder due to a ton of variables, the thing that changes a smokeless powders burn rate once ignited is the pressure created during its own combustion due to the amount of gasses it's producing. Smokeless powder doesn't detonate, but it's burn rate does increase exponentially once it passes a certain pressure threshold, and that can make it look like a detonation, but it is still just burning. CCI #41 primers didn't go through any more R&D than the CCI 450, 400, or BR4, the CCI #41 is the exact same primer as the CCI 450 but instead of a .025" thick cup for the body of the primer, CCI used a .027" thick cup to try and help with possible slam-fire issues in some military rifles that don't use firing pin return springs, and that same thing holds true for the CCI 34, it's identical to the CCI 250 in every way but it's cup was also thickened by .002". Even the folks at CCI have stated that the CCI 41 is interchangeable with the CCI 450 in all load data where it's used as they have the exact same brisance due to the same amount and type of compound used in them. You're number 3 item, is the basic description of the difference between a misfire and a hangfire.

@jimhans1

6 жыл бұрын

David Peterson having watched the video of the WSR loads again and again, I'm not picking up any sign of a hangfire, even tried on my PC with the big sound system speakers to hear for any sort of delay and didn't get anything. But I'm not surprised really, the WSR is one of the highest brisance primers on the market for small rifle primers.

Vitovori states MAGNUM primers.

Possible media from tumbling in the flash hole keeping you from getting full ignition.

I guess you have proved that there is a difference in ignition by different primers. Mo guess the Palma guys (who love the small primer pockets) have to live with this possibility. Could it be their loads fill the case more fully? Large primer pockets and fuller cases for me.

Hey Johnny, is the Chamber Chiller really worth it? Im very interested in it. My .300WM has sporter contour and it heats up super fast, so shooting 5 shot groups takes forever cuz i let rifle cool so much.

In my unprofessional opinion, I think the problem was a combination of low temps, excessive case capacity due to the long seated bullet, the low powder charge, and the small primers/flash holes. Seems like I remember reading that double base powders are harder to ignite because of coatings that control the burn rate. I could be mistaken…

You should start annealing and make your brass last longer👍🏽

Any chance your primers or powder got contaminated? Case lube, cleaning oils, water etc?

Looks like need more powder to fill case more or a bulkier powder to fill more...think that will also help groups also because all of them groups suck for a 6.5

cooling the rounds off is going to be interesting. I am not sure your results will be different It seems to be a issue of extra space in the case , primer ignition temp(or whatever that is called). The reason I say this is there was a 20+ degree difference in the temp when you shoot these rounds and you got hang fires with the 450's. You would expect the powder to ignite more easily than at 20 degrees. I am not sure 20 degrees the other way will effect the powder. Is VV powder temp insensitive? The filler thing is not a new concept. but loads have to be worked up. Pressures can be more with fillers. Dacron has been the go to filler for years. People have used it to load large black powder cases when using smokeless powder. Like the 50-110 Sharps in old single shots.

Hey Johnny, if you are going to use a filler, use polyester fill from a pillow or a stuffed animal. It turns into a little hard bead and doesn't impede exit..

Have u dumped out any of the powder in the can and check it for clumps???

Hi Johnny, watch your videos all the time. While gently loading a 6.5 creedmore with small primer ccI magnum 450 it just wheat off. The second bullet that I tried to load , had difficulty loading. That spooked me so I stopped completely and went back home and remeasured everything but everything is according to specs. Any idea what it could be? Would appreciate any advice from you or any of your audience. Thank you.

You can hear the hangs pretty easily on video....you'll slightly hear the click before the bang on the hangs, otherwise all you hear is the bang if there is no hang.

I do not think it's a primer issue, I think it's the powder. I have had issues with that same powder. I have not done the testing you did. But the primers always function with other powders but hang or misfire with this n550 at times and at much warmer shooting temps than you were experiencing.

I believe its more of a finicky powder to work with rather than the primers I used pretty much every primer you had problems in extreme cold weather and never had a problem.ecpept the s and b and cci 41 primers' have hard time believing it would actually have any thing to do with the case capacity it was at a reasonable case capacity.

I wonder if you had a round that you pointed nose down before you tried firing it. Maybe would make the hang firing/duds worse, suggesting a case fill issue.

Would shelf life of the primers have anything to do with performance?

Smaller flash hole should increase velocity and decrease pressure of the flash. What effect that would have?

I noticed you were using the T/C Compass, how do you like this rifle?

Call serria in Missouri. Get 6.5 2nds. Buy $$ by the lb. The best plinking option for sure. Had u shot serria123mk yet? In compass?

I read about your rifle, there is a problem with the speed of the firing pin moving when the bolt is dirty.

The discharge of hot gasses from the primer is a fluid. Considering conservation of momentum and Bernoulli's equation (www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/fluids/fluid-dynamics/v/fluids-part-12), a smaller flash hole design will generate a faster flow velocity (mass flow rate) through the orifice. My hypothesis is that the higher velocity could carry more momentum and more heat to the charge for a more reliable cascading detonation. Great job Johnny and trying to control variables and attacking problems with a systematic approach.

@jmkhenka

6 ай бұрын

Old post, sure, but for anyone else reading. Toxic free primers are weaker then classic primers. To improve combustion they use a smaller primer hole, this goes for both rifle and pistol. There is even some manufacturers that has been forced to go berdan primers to insure ignition. Causes alot of irritation when reloading pistol brass, especially Norma and S&B toxic free cartridges have holes that is almost half the size of the normal primer. Reloading with normal primers works fine, but getting the old primer out is tedious.

I have never had hang fires befor but i did with black powder ,with the whole bottle then when i broke out a new bottle it stopped i use a ml 700 rem and never did after that , i think it was a bad bottle of black powder, but never with smokeless powder

QUESTION: do you do work with the 260 rem?

Great video. Lots of good info. Did you ever test that other filler on 300blk? I'm trying to load light-ish Subsonics and getting problems. Using 147gr M80 pulled I've used A1680, Lil Gun, CFE BLK, and Trail Boss. All give crazy speed differences. Even the trail boss which overflows the case before you get to 1050fps. I also tried the Rainier Plated RN bullets and they are terrible.

@number40Fan

6 жыл бұрын

Try some Ramshot Enforcer!

@averysakshaug4863

6 жыл бұрын

I've tried the same kind of loads in the past I've found IMR4227 and IMR4198 to work the best (may not cycle carbine length gas though). Basically, higher VMD and faster burn rate is the ticket for light subsonics.

@averysakshaug4863

6 жыл бұрын

number40Fan for 300blk or creedmoor? I've never seen that powder used for 300blk...

Have you taken your bolt apart and clean anything in the firing pin channel? This seems like something you should check to make sure its not mechanical related. I think this is light primer strikes or something of that sort.

@reloadeverything8695

6 жыл бұрын

gixxerjunky with his gun cratering primers on any load I doubt light primer strikes are the culprit esp considering his gun is pretty new and would need more rounds to get that dirty in bolt mechanism or channel

I think it has more to do with load density. People have been using all sorts of stuff as a case filler since the begining of time. And you mentioned wideners, what happened to them? They used to have awesome stuff, now nothing

Which dies do you use in 6.5 creedmoor? Is it the hornady custom? Or Redding competition? I am getting a Redding t-7 turret press I was thinking of Redding competition seater and hornady custom or Redding s series for full length forming with bushings?

Case filling - SHEEPS WOOL !

To me it is obvious that you have too little charge density with N550. Too much air space allows the flash to push over the top of the powder when the cartridge is horizontal. This presents a cooler flame front to the powder and that cooler flame cannot ignite the charge. I am always concerned if the charge density is less than 95%.

Maybe small rifle magnum primers?

im not sure what happens to the cotton but it could get clogged in your suppressor

How do you like that rifle and how long is the barrel?

Just ruminating, but it seems that the 5 shots with case filler would essentially simulate a compressed load, decreasing the case capacity for expanding gasses initially which would account for the increased velocity. **Also, I'm guessing that you'll be trying the same test with a different powder and the same array of primers, right?

@reloadeverything8695

6 жыл бұрын

Yissnakk Lives! Wait a sec ruminating isn't that something to do with cow stomachs and digesting or something I can't remember cleaely

New video!

Puflon was mainly designed to take up case capacity in subsonic loads is what I heard?

@FullSendPrecision

6 жыл бұрын

Yes. Thats why he had it, for sub 300 blackouts

@emburgess7186

6 жыл бұрын

Aaron Anderson Did it work for 300blkout? I have been loading 10g h110 under 198g bullet with no need for filler. Just curious.

i have used used winchester for over 25 years

Loading reduced charges? I have tried to read some information on reduced charges for 30-06 and the like and ran into tons of what seems like superstition to me about guns blowing up. Anyone have any info on this? Thanks.

@DrgnSlyr

4 жыл бұрын

With very light loads you can get detonation rather than burning. Pressure goes through the roof when that happens .

I'd think the small rifle primer isn't hot enough for stick slower burner powder.6.5 creedmoor isn't a small rifle. Large rifle so just use large rifle primers. Just my .02

Why such a light charge? Are you trying to work up reduced loads? Powder is the best case filler their is.

That was WAY more filler than I would have used and feel you may have had good reason to worry. Not with my can. As far as the camera picking up the sound. Maybe it my phone, or ears, but I'm Clearly hearing it. The 2nd shot @37.5 on the 1st video....had to be .1 second delay. I thought double base powder was to fix the issue of powder position? (Titegroup) The odd color and clumps is the powder melted together. I also wonder if a smaller flash hole would force the flame deeper.