Well, I wasn't expecting a discussion centred on the epistemology of football tactics this morning, but I am glad for it.

@danielvaega

Жыл бұрын

Agreed .

@245cam

Жыл бұрын

Most tifo comment of all time

@hamzajehangir1

Жыл бұрын

Same!

I bought Inverting The Pyramid from a book store many years ago by my own interest. Haven't regretted it a bit, it's wonderful work; one of the best football books there. I greatly recommend it to anyone who's new to football, or anyone unaware about how the modern formations and gameplay came about. Thank you Mr. Wilson for your work. A fan.

@Aanike09

Жыл бұрын

This might be inane but is the book focused on tactics or on the people behind the tactics and stories surrounding the games? I struggle to keep up with purely tactical writing, maybe I just lack the imagination required but would love to buy this from a football history fan pov

@hnaku8748

Жыл бұрын

@@Aanike09 It isn't a coaching manual. As in it doesn't go too deep into drills and stuff, but how the general game has evolved since its inception, and what led to the evolution. Mainly the shapes and style of plays. There are also things like how rugby and football split up and the reasons for it, how offside laws came about and changed, the public perception of game then and now etc. So it's a mix of both. Anyone with a basic understanding of football formation will have no issue grasping it. I'm not a coach myself. 🙂

@Aanike09

Жыл бұрын

@@hnaku8748 thank you!

This is a really brilliant conversation, interview, and discussion. Expertly facilitated, Jon. Looking forward to more Tifo Talks.

The end of this discussion about how local towns feed English culture through football is a very important thing. Too often we talk about hooliganism but not the positive aspects. I appreciated that a lot and hope more of this will come up in the future. Honestly the whole conversation was incredible.

The occasional book recommendation on the Tifo pod has always been appreciated so this series is right up my alley!

More Hegel and Foucault discussions in future, please - you utterly wonderful, beautiful nerds

@AranBurton

Жыл бұрын

I concur with this comment, and I very much concur with your profile picture.

This is great! I'm really glad to see you guys doing this stuff again. I'm absolutely here for long form chats with football writers. Really appreciate it!

Genuinely fascinating to hear Foucault's quote about the epoch of space applied to football, especially considering that the way in which the professionalisation of sport is a recent invention of late modernity and that this phenomenon has been completely normalised, and is arguably under-researched by cultural and social theorists.

@txlvvb5215

Жыл бұрын

If you read modern psychoanalysts like Lacan or Zizek, this is everywhere. They emphasize on the ideas like Netherlands as a country focusing on space and the dutch football focusing on it too. What you see in the superficial world applies to the more abstract things too, in their theories.

This is absolutely brilliant. I totally love how a history of football tactics ends (and an amazing book) ends up also being a kind of sociology of knowledge and the movement of ideas, which can then slide effortlessly into a place where dropping a bit of Foucault is not out of place at all. Cool. Next up, how the role of the raumdeuter is secretly directly inspired by the Situationist Internationale's practices of psychogeography? I'm definitely up for that.

Listened to this on Spotify this morning and felt compelled to come on here to comment. This was awesome. Could listen to Jonathan talk all day. Please have him back on at some point. Looking forward to the next one in this series

I’ve been a football lover for many years of my life. It was when I read this book, of which I’ve done multiply times, is where I formed the real foundation of my tactical knowledge. It opened my eyes for sure

Wilson always brilliant. V Good interviewing as well Jon, great questions and guided the discussion well to make it very engaging.

Oh my goodness, one of the coolest books in recent years

Jon really leaning into the football-hipster label by dropping both Hagel and Foucault references in an interview about the history of football tactics. The football men are going to have a field day with this one.

@ramshacklealex7772

Жыл бұрын

In his defense, the whole thesis-antithesis-synthesis thing is what everybody knows about Hegel. It would have felt more affected if he hadn't mentioned it

I haven't watched 1 second of this and already know this is going to be the greatest video ever.

@wizardaka

Жыл бұрын

I was right

Wilson's writing is fantastic, particularly being almost 40, from the US, and not gaining exposure to some of the football 'canon' growing up that kids my age across the pond grew up with, or that the internet is able to provide today.

@yugam-jain

Жыл бұрын

He is British tho, isn't he?

@csolivais1979

Жыл бұрын

@@yugam-jain no, the poster was saying he is from the U.S.

Top, top conversation, Jon. Well done. Thanks to Mr. Wilson for coming in and discussing his work. Cheers, Tifo.

Must say that was an excellent podcast, absolutely love Mr Wilson, very genuine, intelligent, and seems to have his heart in the right place.

I've done some work for FIFA here and there and have been lucky enough to chat to pros and coaches on these topics. Zidane once told me that he didn't consider anyone a striker until they were in the box, and that anyone too far from the ball might as well be off the pitch. He trained his players to pass the ball into space, providing both passer and receiver could identify where the ball and receiver would intersect. He compared it to a meeting place, street corner etc where ball and target player should meet at the same time. He also wanted players to attack through the middle and avoid the wings if possible, as you are moving further from the oppositions danger zone. The converse was true when playing out of defence. He expected players to work on their fitness and technique off the training ground and placed great emphasis on players strengthening their weak points. Very cool and humble guy and had time for everyone, no matter their status.

Video about the history of pressing (soviet, dutch and english) would be super interesting

@stevphen

Жыл бұрын

Seconding this, in particular how the Soviet version of pressing relates to the other better known versions.

@manniking233

Жыл бұрын

The Soviet Dynamo Kiev strand inspired Rangnick and many other German pressing pioneers.

@clavierwintergreen5574

10 ай бұрын

While not much is known about how the idea was inspired, Viktor Maslov seemed to have wanted to dominate and overman the opposition throughout the pitch - especially in key areas. The idea of pressing as a means to unnerve the opponent and win the ball in advantageous areas might have arisen from this. Circumstances also seem to have allowed for this idea to develop; after all - nutrition, pharmacy, the psychological and physical preparation for sports had all advanced significantly since the 30s and 40s. Moreover, government subsidies and investment in sports had grown a lot. So Maslov not only had brilliant ideas at the time, but also had the means to put them in action. I'm certain that there's a lot more to it, but that's a brief explanation I can think of right now :)

After years of merely hearing his voice on a well known ‘rival’ podcast and some old sky sports footage it’s great to actually see the legend that is Wilson

I still have my original copy Inverting the Pyramid, right next to my copy of Fever Pitch. Amazing books I suggest anyone that likes footy to read. What's eye opening for me is that he begins the book with Ye Olde 2-3-5 formation that has now resurfaced in a way through Guardiola, so the pyramid isn't inverting it's kinda going from one extreme to the other in regards to offensive/defensive styles/formations.

This is so good. The other FT journalist mentioned is Simon Kuper I presume?

This is probably one of the best discussions regarding tactics on youtube, coming from the man himself. Thanks Tifo! Great insights

One thing that came from Jonathan Wilson into football's mainstream consciousness was "tactics is the discovery and exploitation of space". Maybe by the time he does a 6th edition, ideas like Chris Wilder's overlapping/underlapping centrebacks etc will also have made it in (though in fairness, it's more of an adaptation of Beckenbauer's libero position, just a bit less freedom and offensive responsibility)

@michaelfarrow5817

Жыл бұрын

England played with overlapping centre backs in Euro 96 to a certain degree when they played Pearce and Neville on the left and right in a three. However, Wilder systemised that and he did it in League 1.

1. Love Wilson's wide range of knowledge. Personally I love football, Hegel and sociohistorical analysis of tatical changes. NOTE: Hegel didn't use the thesis, antithesis, synthesis thingy. It was Fichte and Kant before him. Hegel used affirmation, negation, negation of negation. The Foucault quote was just brilliant. 2. Inverting the pyramid still fits for the book as a title. Every high level team ends attacking as old formations, with 5 up front.

That Foucault quote ❤‍🔥❤‍🔥❤‍🔥 Lovely stuff Jon

I'm so excited to see guest speakers back on the pod

35:45 Pressing always reminds me of playing soccer or touch in PE... with the non-sporty kids rushing after the ball and people who play in their free time hanging around occupying space/the positions they like more. And then "press resistant" players are essentially that best kid in the class who it doesn't really matter how much attention they're getting because the gulf in skill (or, sometimes, co-ordination) is just too vast. In these situations I tended to prefer hanging around on the right wing because that's where you get the best opportunity for this brief exertion of effort where it's just you and the lucky player who emerged with the ball from the over-eager horde because that's the most fun part. I think back to that now and I just think of the "high line" critiques people throw at Manchester City and Liverpool, because that's effectively what this "system" creates. In the most extreme example there was this PE lesson where we played basketball when I was 13/14. The basic idea was myself and most of my team-mates would struggle for the ball, then I'd have the ball and I'd lump it forward to "Sam", who'd run up and score in the open net/basket/whatever it's called. Our PE teacher watched this happen several times before blowing the whistle and pointing out what was happening. Suddenly "Sam" was marked and it didn't work at all. But the lesson here is that if you could somehow absorb all the pressure with just ten guys, then you could have the spare man hovering on the halfway line, just waiting for something to chase. Ultimately I think the re-inversion, when you think of it like this, is possible because the teams that just give up and park the bus can't keep that player that is good enough and fast enough to consistently turn the "lump it forward" into goals. Which means there's no need to push your defence back, which means you can make your defenders your midfielders and your midfielders extra forwards. And it's the same if they find a press resistant star or an amazing distributor. Ultimately, what will happen is they get their breakout season, your whole team suddenly looks good and you're stripped for parts in the summer or, if you're especially unlucky, January. And the guy that was the star on your team sits on the bench wherever they've moved to. Maybe it's too cynical but surging gives way to positional play in schools not because surging doesn't work, but because the people who try to play with even an approximation of positional discipline in PE lessons are either just better or are unfit "I like the occasional sprint rather than the constant jog" like myself. And I think pressing as it's enacted in the EPL proves this.

Jon, I'm very glad you're in the Tifo team. Great chat, look forward to the rest!

Jonathan is my favorite author in the game. Thanks

Read this a few years ago. A very interesting book.

The football Bible for tactics nerds. Do the new editions new chapters to explain recent changes? I remember he wrote how football now is cold because it was the time of 4-2-3-1 counter attacking football.

IT’S JON’S 8 PART PODCAST SERIES

I cant say how many times I've fallen asleep to this podcast. such a dulcet voice

I could listen to this guy all day.

first time i've actually seen jonathan wilson after only hearing him on the football weekly podcast

@TheIronBeak

Жыл бұрын

Lol right my two favorite football podcasts collide!

A healthy listen just while playing FM ☺

Imho, the systemization of football provides a platform for lesser talented but hard working footballers to play a part in the highest level of football because it facilitates to hide their weakness and enhance their strengths

@MattVogt2

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. Which really should mean that the ongoing consolidation of talent in the EPL should lead to sharper tactical focus and experimentation everywhere else, right?

@johnratnam4864

Жыл бұрын

@@MattVogt2 That comes with the trade. Human beings always look to make things sharper and efficient and so the same with football. Well they are also known for their innovation, aren't they?

I love these one off podcasts. You guys are the best.

Been wanting to read that book for ages! Great chat

This was brilliant. More please.

This was amazing, more of this please!

This is a special podcast, thanks to all involved.

I've been a fan of Jonathan's writing in the Guardian for a while now, and it's really cool to see the man himself speak

I think this is the video we've assumed would happen for a long time, and it did not disappoint.

very happy to see Tifo with La Media Inglesa. well done boys

Hell yah. Love Jon in the Raps hoodie

Re-50:00 the biggest difference between league and cup teams is the impact of a draw. Take Chelsea under Tuchel, not high scorers but hard to beat. His downfall was draws in the league (and behind the scenes stuff) but cup draws go to extra time and if Liverpool weren't better at penalties he'd have a relatively full trophy cabinet.

Probably now we can talk about 're-inverting the pyramid', since teams again play with three-at-the-back, full or wing backs are almost as wingers and central midfielders are left alone in the middle, at least in attacking stages of the game. So, again, many, many years later the system is 3-2-5. Actually, 3-4-3 with a square in the middle is very much like the W-M.

Props to Jon, a marvellous conversation, made my morning better in many ways, looking to see more from this podcast

This wasn't just a good book for tactics, but a phenomenal history book. Every game you watch is going to be affected by this in that you'll have this insane amount of context as to why each player is doing what they're doing and how that's changed over the years. Plus the conversations you can have after reading this are 5 steps above before. Guaranteed to make you the smartest guy in the room everywhere you go.

did you notice the book got a cameo in the first episode of 'ted lasso'

YES more long form FEED US LONG FORM

Wilson ageing like a fine wine

Honestly one of the most interesting discussions on football I’ve ever heard. Anybody know of something similar I could listen to?

Great work, don’t know what I would do without this channel

One of the greatest tactical historians explaining his thought process.. incredibly interesting

If feel like Nagelsmann’s problem in International football comes more from a mental thing than tactical. I remember when we played in the CL group stage under him in 18/19 we were on top in most games. But it felt like he was never willing to just hold a tight lead or draw and instead went full out attacking in the last third of the game and lost the games because of it.

@manniking233

Жыл бұрын

He's a childhood Bayern fan. I suspect that night at the Camp Nou when Bayern tried to hold on to a lead and failed, losing the treble, has traumatized him for years. Hence, it is apparent he would rather go down fighting constantly and lose that way than sit back and hold on to luck and concentration to take him to the finish line like he should. If he grew up resenting Hitzfeld and his defensive mindset because of that, I am not surprised he would proudly wish to be attacking till the last minute when everyone else can see he shouldn't.

More content like this please, most interesting video I've seen on the channel.

I could listen to Jonathan Wilson talk all day.

You better put all 8 of these on KZread. Even if there's no video.

I thought about it and I'm still unsure whether there is still a new revolutionary tactic possible or everything was already tested and new tactics are a mix of different styles

Thanks Tifo….he did reference mentioned squad size but it would be great to know what Jonathan thinks about the impact of player fitness on football tactics as well!

One thing that's changed in the current discourse in the UK is that we have a much more Italian view than we used to. Italians never talked about positions but roles. We never talked about roles but positions. So now we're in a middle ground where it's not just about where you are but what it is you're doing there.

Amazing book. Highly recommended it

i love seeing Jon thriving at Tifo :D love your stuff m8

That Foucault quote 🔥🔥🔥 Lovely stuff Jon

This was exceptional

Hey, did you know that Nagelsman played a Bayern style of football at Leipzig, but has weirdly taken a Leipzig style of football to Bayern, which is kind of backwards?!

@lizwewadi3681

Жыл бұрын

WHAT Really, someone should let that Jon fellow know sounds like something he'd find fascinating

Jon x Jon, perfect.

Really enjoyed this, thank you!

Absolutely love Inverting the Pyramid, where can I find the other volumes of it

24:56 I'd never heard of this book and initially thought it was going to be a what if on the idea of "which premier league team would win the top flight first if the PL was turned into the bottom tier of the football pyramid". Then once I figured out it was tactics, I thought "oh, it's a book about how you went from 5-3-2 or whatever to what Manchester City does now". And then it quickly became apparent that this was not a recent book and was instead talking about 1-9 formations developing in 4-4-2. And then 24:56 and my second thought was vindicated.

I could listen to Jonathan Wilson talk about football tactics for about 7 minutes.

Great stuff , really enjoyed this

Great that Tifo even provide us with vivid re-enactments of Johns wet dreams.

Jonathan the great

This was brilliant. Thanks!

Bonus episode! Thank the Gods.

i love him...👌👌👌

Fantastic. Although I would have liked to see Wilson paired with Joe Divine.

well that was absolutly wonderfull

you should do this with the book Zonal marking

I love this

great pod, cheers

I loved this!

Class .

Fantastic!

This is amazing!

Any other great football books people can recommend?

@footballhipster

Жыл бұрын

I highly recommend you read Those Feet, Football Against the Enemy, The Mixer, and Zonal Marking.

@truthoverlies1820

6 ай бұрын

The European game by Daniel Fieldsend, Soccernomics by Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski, The Numbers Game by Chris Anderson and David Sally, Moving the Goalposts by Rob Jovanovic

The bible of football tactics.

Top notch content 👌

If John has 1million fans, I am 1 of them. If John has 10,000 fans, I am 1 of them. If John has 1000 fans, I am 1 of them. If John has 100 fans, I am 1 of them. If John has 1 fan, then it’s me and me only. Mon the John.

Interesting writer !

Excellent vid this

from Toronto, love the Raptors hoodie, Jon!

Ashington also produced Jack Milburn and his cousin Jackie Milburn, himself the cousin of the Charlton's mother. There must be something in the water.

Fingers crossed he talks about those dead children again! Classic Tifo moment.

@oclarke31

Жыл бұрын

What,

8 parts damn