This is a most intelligent presentation currently on youtube especially forCanadians to hear, and think about in these noisy times.

Thanks for raising the tone of our public discourse. Your guest's monster intellect and glittering speaking style are rivalled only by his fundamental humanity. He is a keeper. How did we let him slip away?

Thank you. I will take up David Frum's final challenge starting now.

The phrase was attributed to former Bush speechwriter David Frum, originally as the axis of hatred and then evil. Frum explained his rationale for creating the phrase axis of evil in his book The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bush. Essentially, the story begins in late December 2001 when head speechwriter Michael Gerson gave Frum the assignment of articulating the case for dislodging the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq in only a few sentences for the upcoming State of the Union address. Frum says he began by rereading President Franklin D. Roosevelt's "date which will live in infamy" speech given on December 8, 1941, after the Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. While Americans needed no convincing about going to war with Japan, Roosevelt saw the greater threat to the United States coming from Nazi Germany, and he had to make the case for fighting a two-ocean war.

True. Speaking truth to power!

I think it's pretty funny that the moment someone posted something on your forum that didn't suit your narrative you guys took it down. It wasn't hate speech. Freedom of expression for me but not for thee.

@RFranklinCarter

8 ай бұрын

You know, that's actually the title of a book: "Free Speech for Me --- But Not for Thee" by Nat Hentoff. I have a copy, a hardback dated 1992. So it's more than 30 years old, but it's still worth reading. Hentoff was a civil libertarian and a great writer.

I have received learned about the excellent insight and knowledge of David Frum. RS. Canada

I feel it's crucial to approach discussions about Israel with a deep sense of respect, recognizing the complexity of the situation. It's vital to avoid any form of demonization, be it directed towards Israelis, Palestinians, or other nations in the region. The history, marked by violence and displacement, calls for a compassionate understanding. Criticizing Israel should be done in a manner that fosters dialogue and empathy, not hate. The suffering endured by all parties, particularly innocent civilians in Gaza and Isreal , is deeply troubling and unacceptable. It's imperative to reject any form of collective punishment and instead seek paths to reconciliation. I believe in the coexistence of both the Israeli and Palestinian states, valuing the rights and dignity of all involved.

@andal7404

8 ай бұрын

This seems to assume these countries did not have their own well developed cultural norms, beliefs and successful civilisations willing to accept others who accorded with these deeply developed lives. However the goal has always seemed to be dominance.

How many people stack their books horizontally?

It never bothers me that many people criticize Israel (as long as they aren’t calling for its destruction or being hateful). Israel has plenty of actions and policies that deserve criticism. What bothers me is when people never see the other side, the terrorism against Israel, the support of such terrorism by Iran and Hizbillah, or much of the Arab World that stokes the flames to distract from their domestic situations. People need to look at the context, nuances, and realize the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is complex and not black and white. Having said that I don’t know how people can approve and celebrate the disgusting warcrimes and atrocities Hamas did at the beginning of the war. It wouldn’t be okay if Israel did it, or America, so why would it be okay if Hamas does it? I just checked out the social media feed of my University and I’m glad I didn’t see any of the hatred and nonsense you two have highlighted.

@saattlebrutaz

8 ай бұрын

Total and complete bullshit. When there is terrorism against Israel, the entire world sees it and calls it terrorism. Literally the entire world's focus is on Israel right now because of that. A few crazy people deny it. In contrast - Israel's murder and war crimes mostly go unnoticed in the press. Israel murders and oppresses Palestinians on a daily basis: settlers kill an Arab, and IDF soldier shoots a child - and it generally does not even make the news.

@falsum2701

8 ай бұрын

Look at all the various statements that have been put out criticizing Israel's actions in Gaza. The vast majority of them condemn Hamas and its recent terror attacks. Most of them do that right up front. Now compare that to the various statements of support for Israel. How many of them start by condemning Israel's bombing and siege of Gaza?

@Music-Is-Real-Love

7 ай бұрын

💯! @TheGood Shepherd117.

@Music-Is-Real-Love

7 ай бұрын

​@@falsum2701 Exactly!!.

On the other hand, support for Hamas and the violence perpetrated on Israeli citizens, carries with it the threat of potential violence against all Jewish people in Canada. THAT is insupportable.

This is a good discussion, and I'm broadly sympathetic to what Frum is saying. But one variable that he is leaving out (I'm not sure if it's because he's center-right and can't quite see it) is Netanyahu himself. Netanyahu has been so extreme over the years that he has become not just an object of disgust among the far left (who Andrew Coyne rightfully notes have an anti-Western worldview), but also an object of begrudging tolerance among the center-left. It absolutely doesn't excuse the anti-semitism of the far left, which simply should not be condoned. But it does explain why some more moderate voices who are neither anti-semestic nor anti-Israel -- but who might be critical of Israeli _policy_ -- are either lukewarm in their support of israel or falling into the trap of moral equivalency ('both sides are bad').

@Rnankn

8 ай бұрын

Anti-western worldview? There is a historic pattern in the west where the liberal and conservative establishment always favour the far right, simple because they think the far left is somehow unpalatable. The first time it failed, conservatives positioned fascists to nearly conquer the world. More recently, they supported religious fundamentalists and ethnic nationalists in the hopes of blocking egalitarian social change. The left is contrarian, and pursues fundamental change for the better, but if anyone is courting anti-westernism, it is the right in the quest for power and ridiculous crusade against the left. This is exhausting.

I love “Canada has a culture of preferred speech”

5:40: "Jews are the single most target group followed by gays and lesbians." You've got to be kidding me! Indigenous people in Canada and Blacks in the US are by far more stigmatized--according to any measure of exclusion or disenfranchisement.

How do you assimilate religious fundamentalist views (Christian, Jewish, Islamic etc) with a modern secular state?

@GordDiv

8 ай бұрын

Great question. I came from Scotland many years ago and was so impressed how Canada had somehow moved beyond the Catholic/Protestant vitriol so prevalent in Scotland and Ireland given the makeup of the immigrant population to that time. Now we accept people from many other cultures and religions but seem to allow them to establish ‘ghettos’ where imported hostilities can thrive. Not sure how to counteract that but indifference is clearly not tenable

@patriciajay1

8 ай бұрын

Canadians need to get real and become more informed rather living on sound bites!

@patriciajay1

8 ай бұрын

Well said David!

Well. I dont always agree with David Frum. And I still dont but he did say some things that are true. Compulsory land acknowledgements is way too radical for me. Canada is losing its way. I acknowledge men can't become women, terrorism is always wrong, and multiculturalism is failing.

No one can defend Israel at this time without being a complete ghoul.

This man caused so many deaths with his Axis of Evil lies.

@rsr789

7 ай бұрын

Do two wrongs make a right? I mean, he's a piece of shit, but it doesn't make him wrong regarding this issue.

@iamanomas

5 ай бұрын

Totally agree. Frum supported George Bush’s invasion of Iraq. There were no weapons of mass destruction. I will never forgive this man as that war only increased the problems of the Middle East. Talk about hypocrisy. He’s the worst.

This conversation with Frum highlights the nefarious forces at play in controlling the narrative about the Israel-Palestine conflict.
 As the world's only Jewish state, Israel embodies all of Jewish culture, religion, ethnicity, and historical experience. As such, it is nearly impossible to criticize Israel without triggering or offending its proponents in any odd way. 
There are so many ways to manipulate criticism of Israel into anti-semitism, and proponents of Israel have not shied away from doing this to stifle and deflect (as this whole interview does). I can't help but feel the anti-Muslim and undertones present throughout the dialogue. Perhaps its in the way that "terrorism" has been selectively applied to one specific group thanks to decades of media bias and manipulation. It's ironic the extent to which Israelis and Jews can freely criticize Israel’s actions and decisions without being deemed as anti-Semites. But should the gentiles have the audacity to ask they same questions, they are terrorist sympathizers. Terrorism must be condemned in all its forms. But there is an arbitrary nature to its designation. As the saying goes, one man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. Watching the news this past week has been strange. I hear Israelis describe the terror of the Hamas attack superimposed on the footage of the colossal destruction they have unleashed on Gaza and find myself thinking, which is the terror? Why is one more "terror" than the other? Frum recommends that law enforcement take notes on who expresses or espouses specific types of views. He advocates for free speech for some, and surveillance for others. And given his world view, is that remotely surprising? I would like to know if Frum would equally support having law enforcement present at rallies in support of the victims of the Israeli terror attacks just as he proposes the surveillance of the rally in support of the Palestinian victims of the illegal Israeli Occupation. I don't believe he would. In fact, such a suggestion would be anti-Semitic.
 We're heading down a slippery slope, and nobody has done more damage to free speech across America than the Pro-Israel lobby. I hope the same doesn't happen in Canada. But judging from how Speer slurps it all in, I think that's exactly where we're heading.

@IrishCarney

8 ай бұрын

What utter, tiresome, cliched stupidity. It's literally visibly obvious that Hamas went out of its way to specifically target and butcher civilians. Israel may end up killing civilians but only as unavoidable collateral damage while they attack legitimate military and strategic targets. Why does the thumpingly obvious like this even need to be said? Over and over?

@fortinmarien7378

7 ай бұрын

actually what do you call the invasion and occupation of our streets by pro palestinians chanting from the River to the Sea????

I would also like to say that some hatred of Israeli's is deifinitely based in antisemitism, but in my circle which has many Jews within us, it is the unjust behaviour of Israeli's against the Palestinians that is the root cause of our anti-Israeli feeling. Don't always play the anti-semitic card it devalues it.

@ralex3697

7 ай бұрын

It is primarily anti-semitism and a host of other issues. The charter clearly instructs them to kill all Jews. So yes that is the crux of the matter whether it is recognized or not by the Western world.

@Music-Is-Real-Love

7 ай бұрын

​@@ralex3697 💯!

@fortinmarien7378

7 ай бұрын

I am appaled that canadians, quebecois, etc tolerate the immense violenceand hatred on Our Streets by pro palestinians, muslim integrists accompanied by the young, uneducated no nothing canadian followers, meantime, jews a re spitted on the streets, this country, Canada, now disgusts me

Islamophobia is 10x the problem of antisemitism in this world, except among some Arab populations. Nobody really hates Jews, whereas almost all non-Muslim groups harbour Islamophobia.

@itsjustmnc

8 ай бұрын

Unfortunately Ed, the reality is that Western societies have a deeply embedded and deadly anti-semitism that subsides and flares up repeatedly over time. It wasn't that long ago in Canada that Jews were excluded from politics and universities. However, the conflating of Israel's policies and Judaism has added to this anti-semitism, and given a new life to the dangerous tropes that have fueled anti-semitism for centuries. This is why Frum's approach to this subject, and his contributions to global Islamophobia, is bound to further drive anti-semitism in Canada.

@Music-Is-Real-Love

7 ай бұрын

​@itsjustmnc I agree with your comment, rather than the first one. It should never be a prejudiced competition. However, at this point in time, one group is facing the majority of targeted hatred, and it's very wrong.

@dale5497

7 ай бұрын

Nonsense. Antisemitism is almost as old as recorded history. Data in the United States shows that over a ten-year period, almost 70% of documented cases of racism are against Jews, and only 15% against Muslims. That said, bigotry is everywhere, including in our own hearts. Let's work very hard to love everyone.

@odoaceroftheneoromanempire7178

7 ай бұрын

Islam calls for the conversion or death of all non-Muslims on earth. Islam is inherently a colonizing and expansionist ideology and always has been. In fact, I woulda argue Islam is an Arab supremacist religion since Arabs are the majority in most of the middle east and North Africa after 1400 years of Arab Muslim colonization. Even in the Koran it says the only language that will be spoken in Jannah(Heaven) is Arabic. Islamophobia is a made up term to sate the massive victim complex Muslims feel when they are minorities. When Islam is a majority, it only demands submission from minorities. People rightfully fear Islam.

@jaialaiwarrior

7 ай бұрын

Or more accurately, jihad-phobia. Which is appropriate. Muslims have poor self-esteem because their doctrines seem to align better with dictatorship and power, and societies run that way suppress individual flourishing and individual pride.

No one can defend Israel at this time without being a complete ghoul.