Advice to beginners: Don't get overwhelmed by all the fancy builds you see in magazines and online. Most of those projects were done by experts and mastercraftsmen with decades of experience. You don't have to recreate the Guggenheim to enjoy woodworking. If you want to build stuff out of pallet wood and popsicle sticks......go for it!

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Love this advice!

@Coen80

2 жыл бұрын

And also, more than often , even those Master-projects have their little faults and marks.. however, these expert craftsmen are also experts at editing :D

@willbephore3086

2 жыл бұрын

Solid advice.

@MrShadyCash

2 жыл бұрын

Couldn't have said it better.

@davewojtowicz2246

Жыл бұрын

​@@Coen80 100% I can make some of my first year projects look epic with the right edits!!

My biggest advice is to have a plan when you go into the shop. Know what you are going to work on and have goals for the day. I don't always meet my goals but having a plan makes my time more productive. Second thing is don't work tired. When you are tired you WILL make mistakes (hopefully not the kind that injure you.) And, knowing your limits (and those of your tools) will also help keep you safe. Thanks! And love your work!

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Both are solid points!

I'm not a beginner woodworker but I really enjoyed your perspective in this one, Billy. I especially liked your list of must haves at the beginning. The tip I can give after 30 years of hobby woodworking is never stop trying to learn. Bill

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

I look forward thinking about this in ten years. Wondering what wish I knew in 2022 that I've learned through 2032.

Tip: Hardwoods are generally easier to work with hand tools than softwoods. For example making dovetails in Pine vs Walnut. Pine will fold over and split where as Walnut will cut smoothly even with a semi sharp chisel. I was surprised how well I could make dovetails in Walnut after originally making dovetails in Pine.

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

EXCELLENT point! You are 100% right. Dovetailing pine is like trying to cut a pillow.

@ChristIsLord229

Жыл бұрын

Yes

@davelester1985

3 ай бұрын

Yes, and be glad you can get walnut, here is Italy it is very very difficult to find walnut. They love pine here and it seems to be the only wood available unless you find a special source for other types of wood.

My biggest beginning woodworker mistake(and I'm still sorta beginner) is using cheap construction lumber,I wish I would have known how much more enjoyable it is working with hardwoods such as walnut or cherry.

@TomDanaher

2 жыл бұрын

Well mistakes in pine is much easier on the pocket than in walnut or other costly woods.

@andrewavellino6427

2 жыл бұрын

@@TomDanaher I feel that if you keep the projects small and simple(boxes, picture frames, decorative shelves,ect) then making mistakes isn't as intimidating to newer woodworkers. I remember my first projects in red oak ,man I thought out every little detail 100 times over before I even measured or rough cut anything! Didn't wanna mess ANYTHING up. I think getting over that fear of messing up is another beginning "wish I knew"

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. Construction lumber is not as dry and it has more movement. It also has a lot of sap. In general, it's simply not as good of quality. At the same time, one can buy beautiful, properly dried pine at a lumber yard cheaper than hardwood. It's quality stuff and not made for construction. It's better quality material but less than hardwood.

@davelester1985

3 ай бұрын

@@NewtonMakes No dried pine here in Italy, and actually no lumber yards.

The only exception I’d have to your statements about glue squeeze out is on cutting or charcuterie boards. I want tons of squeeze out there otherwise I get gaps that can trap food or allow too much moisture in the crack. More as a gap filler than providing stronger glue joint. Great video - keep up great work on your vids. Thanks!

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

People will find an exception to a lot of these because we all do things that work for us. That's one thing I love about making stuff. There are so many ways to do things and they aren't wrong, just different. We find what works for us and that's really cool!

This was great especially since I am starting out with basic wood projects

Man. Wish I'd known about not having to measure everything .. that one alone would have spared me so many hours of grief. Excellent video getting the good word out haha.

I am in complete agreement with your advice regarding glue squeeze out. Most people use way too much glue and then have to deal with cleaning off all the excess glue. I have found the perfect tool to put on the correct amount of glue and minimize squeeze out, a $0.50, 3 inch, plastic putty knife with 1/16" notches sold at Menards and other box stores. I cut off the plastic handle so that I am only left with the notched blade. I put on a bead of glue to the surface to be glued then use the notched putty knife to form uniform glue beads along the glued surface. If I am gluing porous surfaces, I glue both surfaces, If I am gluing very smooth surfaces, I only apply glue to one surface. I usually get just a tiny amount of squeeze out that is easy to remove and have never had a glue joint failure in 40 years. This technique is so good that I often don't need clamps since the Titebond glue will catalyze quickly and the pieces don't float around like they do when you use excessive amounts of glue.

Really appreciate your honesty and the straightforward advice. Very new at this wonderful hobby and wish I had discovered your channel sooner.

My tip: Don't buy tools you "think" you will need in the future. Buy them when you need them. I can't count the number of tools and gadgets I have purchased that I have never actually used.

@tomcoon9038

2 жыл бұрын

(sheepishly) Same. Some still in the box.

So many points I agree with and most especially with the sharpening. I did a lot of YT reviews of sharpening methods and in the end I chose a simple single diamond stone and made my own strop. I knew that I needed the processes to be quick, effective and simple otherwise I'd not do it. I did buy a guide to correctly set up the angle but very quickly I did away with that too because I developed a feel of how to angle the chisel, plane blade and my kitchen knives. The only thing I would change about my choice of diamond stone is its width. I bought one that is really a bit too narrow for comfortable sharpening. I'll probably upgrade that soon. Otherwise, super sharp tools do not have to be hard to achieve. Go simple, effective and quick. I enjoy sharpening now because after the initial learning time, I now do it really quickly.

I'm past a beginner but this video is valuable if for nothing else a reminder that there are many different ways of doing things and time spent looking around can be a real-time and energy saver. Very enjoyable and down-to-earth. Thanks for your time.

I began watching your videos because I started making boxes. Like you, I find it enjoyable. My box designs are very different than yours but I wanted to establish a process that is reliable and predictable as to avoid mistakes. I appreciate that you included the sharpening section. I too have arrived at a point where I am using a method that dislike the least. I don’t enjoy sharpening, but it is essential to have sharp tools to achieve good results. I’m using a double sided diamond stone and a strop. I can put a very sharp edge in a couple of minutes and get back to the fun stuff. You have been a lot of help to me. Thank you.

@brendasmith1533

11 ай бұрын

Strop...that's the word I couldn't figure out what he was saying!!! 🤣 Now I can find it in his links. So thanks for your comment. 🤣

Every single tip is, in my experience, spot on. This is a true reference video, and you have done the new woodworkers a great service by making it. Well done!

I stretched old jeans on 4 wall tiles separately to create 4 strops with different grids. 6,5 microns to 0,1 microns. All my tools are always sharp now and it takes less than 5 minutes to keep all chisels, gouges and the planer sharp! As a beginner myself, this was my first "advanced" move towards creating my own workflow. Thanks for all the great advice, especially sanding!

My biggest mistake was having too many projects going at once. Ended up taking twice as long to complete each item.

@AxGryndr

Жыл бұрын

I still have this issue. I am currently working on reorganizing my shop space and I have come to realize that one of the biggest sources of clutter and mess is unfinished projects. In some cases I needed a part, a tool, or my progress wasn't matching my vision, I set it aside to work on something else and the project so tucked away. I need a better way of storing in progress projects so I have a constant reminder of what needs to be worked on. I also found keeping a shop journal helps because sometime it has just been so long that I can't recall what needs to be done which leads to that project further languishing in limbo.

The table saw to bandsaw re-sawing technique is one of my favorite. Actually did that this morning on some coffee tables I’m building. After I run it through the table saw, I find it even easier to run it through 60% of the way on the band saw, flip it over and meet in the middle. It keeps your fingers in a safer spot and I’ve found it easier to keep a straight cut.

@tl3509

Жыл бұрын

Yes. I also use this method all of the time. It actually makes for straighter cuts. It is safer when re-sawing thicker materials. The only time i would do a full bandsaw re-saw is when the material is too thin for a safe cut on the table saw.

Like your channel we have a lot of the same woodworking habits!😁👍

I think a good beginning tip is to keep a shop journal. Something where you keep project notes, measurements, ideas and sketches. I find this makes it easier to set a project to the side and come back to. It also lets me iterate on a design because sometimes I have an idea, don't write it down and then cannot recall what it was later.

This is the best, most practical video I’ve seen in a long time. Keep it up!

Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

Started woodworking about 3 years now and I watched a lot of youtube lol/ I must saw that your content is AWESOME and there isn't anyone really covering things the way you are Great job.

These are excellent and perfect for beginners in the craft. Thanks so much. Lots of wisdom being communicated.

Thanks for making this video. Love the practical and efficient way of thinking about things. It applies well for not just wordworking but almost anything else.

The more and more i see these commercial woodworking channels the more i like channels like this.

I really like the information and presentation in your videos . Keep up the great work!

A tip on saving a great deal of money on sandpaper: use sandpaper made for drywall. It's a mesh. My favorite is Abranet, but I've used others and they work the same and come in different grits. Why this? I've had the same Abranet 3x6 inch multipack for nearly 5 years and it's still good. Bought on Amazon. Grits from 80 to 600. I also have the 5 inch discs for the random orbital and it's also still good, though I've only had that for 3 years. Same multipack. Why is it so good? It doesn't clog. You can fold it, roll it, bend it, and it still works. It's mesh, so the dust goes through into the collection without holes. And if it gets "full"? Just peel it off of the sander and whack it a couple of times against the counter and it's clear. You can also blow it out with compressed air, or wash it if you need to, and it's still good. Now, 3M makes a very thin paper that can be rolled up very tiny, or wadded up and come back to it's original, but it can't be unclogged simply by whacking it on something. That's best for coves and grooves and detail work. But it does last a long time. For me, only two papers. Abranet (or similar) and the 3M foldy paper. It's all you'll ever need.

Some tips I have learned: Make cheap but precise jigs for repeat jobs. I have one for finger joints, spline cuts, miter cuts, cross cuts Don’t cut anything on a router until you have tried it on scrap wood and see if it works well Get a 12” and 36” steel rule that starts at zero on the edge otherwise too many opportunities for mistakes Enjoyed your video!

I am totally amateur, on and off weekend woodworker but enjoyed(and learned) from your video. Good straight forward, no nonsense presentation...cheers...rr Normandy, Fra.

I know this is an old video but I am old as well. I enjoyed watching how you address a problem. I probably have made all the mistakes one can make working with wood at one time or another. Thanks for the video. You obviously have paid your dues.

@NewtonMakes

Жыл бұрын

It's how we learn. A bit embarrassing to show mistakes on the internet, but important nonetheless.

Back scratcher and fun socks I agree with. Not tried ninja stars but I'll put them on the list. And I can sharpen them on my strop!

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

I like your way of thinking!

Thank you for sharing this things 🙏🙏🙏

Just watched my first video from your channel… Really good stuff. Thanks for your time and I look forward to watching more!

Very informative! Thanks!

Great video, thanks for posting!

All great tips. The bandsaw and sharpening ones as well as the glue, clamps and double sided tape are great. Going to get a few rolls today! Thank you : )

I agree with all your tips. Great advice......thanks for sharing!

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for checking it out!

Thanks for all the great tips! I finally bought a good sander and the Cubitron sandpaper and the difference is huge.

Sound advice here! I would just add about keeping chisels and planes very sharp, it makes working so much easier. I also second the comment about hardwood being easier to work - if you are learning it is tempting to use heap softwood but it really is harder to get good results. I used to buy or scrounge old hardwood furniture to practice making things, your local tip facility can be your friend here.

Great tips... some great insight on time and tools.

Very fair and interesting reviews. Great job! thank you

Thanks for the tips! Totally agree on the too much glue point and just ordered diamond stones and a strop.

Thanks for the video! Very helpful.

Great video! 👍

Love the groove tip. Thnx!

Thanks, Billy, a very helpful list of dos and don'ts.

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for checking it out

Really like the tip about not resawing just using the bandsaw but using table saw instead and flipping the piece over, I'd never thought of that, thanks!

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

I really hate changing bandsaw blades! 😂

Awesome tips, thanks!!!

Keep it up you are very helpful. Thanks Julien

Fantastic tips, Newton! Thanks!!! 😃 Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching! 👍

Great tips! Thanks for the video

Some really good things to remember. Thanks

That was AWESOME.

Thanks for these tips. I like when you said that tool reviews are usually biased and yet we see more and more of them, to the point that some KZread woodworkers are becoming only tool reviewers... Keep on the good work!

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

As long as they are transparent. I will always tell you if I received a tool for free. And I will never withhold negative thoughts about it. It's something I tell people when they reach out: I'm going to be honest so prepare yourself.

@independent900

Жыл бұрын

The woodworking YT pros use reviews to increase revenue through affiliate links. Most of the ones I see appear to be honest and transparent. I don't see anything wrong with touting a product you like, as long as it's honest and not deceptive.

You're giving great tips, so I'm going to give you a couple about glue squeeze-out. You're right. You only want to use as much glue as you need. For the best adhesion, you want to put enough glue but not too much, as you said. To that, if you let both sides sit for a few minutes, it will get tacky ... tacky enough that you can move it a bit, but then it will quickly "lock" where you want it and won't slip during clamping. If it does slip with the clamps, remove the clamps. Realign the pieces, wait another 5 minutes (with Tightbond anyway) and THEN clamp. You will have less slippage. ALL pieces are subject to glue wandering everywhere. Even if you do your best to remove excess glue, you may leave an invisible fingerprint, or not scrape or sand as well as you believed. The remedy? White vinegar. Cheapest you can get. Once you have finish sanded and think you're ready for finish, you don't want to be surprised by glue residue because it will be an "I messed up" beacon on your piece. So, wipe your entire piece down with white vinegar on a rag to figure out where the residue is on the joints, or stray fingerprints. Once identified, you can pat on the vinegar and let it sit for a minute, and then, with a rag, wipe (or sometimes scrub depending) the glue residue OUT of the wood. Seriously, OUT. Vinegar pulls the glue out of the wood. White vinegar will REMOVE the glue from the grain. Finger prints? Just pat some on with a rag, wait a minute or two, and then wipe/scrub it away. Bonus is that it won't raise the grain. Glue leftover or squeeze-out on the joints? This will take a bit more patience, but it will work. Pat on the vinegar and let it sit. You will see the excess turn opaque white and many times, you can scrape it up with your fingernail and pull the majority of it off. Then let dry and check again. Residue, repeat as for fingerprints. A WORD OF CAUTION: Be very careful when using on joints. You absolutely DON'T want to flood the joints because if it will dissolve the glue on the surface, it will do so in the joints. So, just PAT it on. Yes, it may take a few times, but better that than destroying the glue in a joint that will eventually fall apart. Easy application, cheap, non-toxic, reliable, won't raise the grain, removes residue entirely from the grain with patience. Use it, and never find an "oops" when you're applying finish.

Great video as always.

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching it!

Thanks!

Some really good tips. Thank you

Great list and suggestions. I’d add understand that mistakes will be made. Learn three things from them: how to correct it this time, what caused it, what to do to avoid or minimize it next time.

Good sanding advice all around. You're correct. you only need 2 grits (or perhaps 3, an 80 grit, if you need to hog off more than a finish sand because something didn't line up exactly correctly). 120 and 180 are fine, depending on the finish. A penetrating finish? Stop at 180. Higher and the stain/penetrating whatever won't sink in very far. A wax finish? You can take it all the way to 320 if you like. Working with a very dense, oily exotics like Ebony or Pink Ivory (that almost finishes itself with a sharp blade)? 80 grit to level (this stuff is HARD), then skip to 220 and see where that gets you. Not glass smooth (Ebony, African Blackwood, Pink Ivory, Brazilian Rosewood, etc)? Then take it to 320 or 400 (because all you're going to coat with is a UV clear coat). Just know that this stuff is, again, very hard. You'll get a glass finish, but you have to be patient.

You got some Jim Cramer energy in your videos. Just need a big soundboard wall. :D

@NewtonMakes

Жыл бұрын

Sell sell!!

Great video dude!

Really wonderful your way of setting the width and length of your boxes bottom w/o measuring. Had I known it a few weeks ago 😢

Thank you. Your list is helpful.

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching

That was excellent advice, thanks

Helpful!!

This video deserves a subscribe! And so I did.

Great video. Extremely insightful for new guys, especially not spending 1000 on parallel clamps. I've used pipe clamps and quick and f clamps from HF and they have been fantastic.

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Don't get me wrong, if I had a ton of parallel clamps then I wouldn't cry. But I thought it was what I had to have when I started woodworking. Now, I use pipe clamps almost exclusively. They work great.

Ninja stars was all I needed to see- subscribed.

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

We all need a little ninja star in our life

Hi Billy just subscribed to your channel as the tips you have given was valuable for me as a novice woodworker thanks for the tips appreciated. Billy from Scotland UK.

Great stuff

Great video really appreciate it. Can't wait for next build project. On the sharpening stones I used to be a professional chef and I used to use something called a chisel box stone 4sided rectangle different grits all the way round used work great on knives and works amazing on chisels no need for anything apart from spritz water gets them razor sharp every time 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿👍

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Me either! It's simply been a slow build but hopefully I'll be done soon.

One thing I am coming to realize as I move from beginner to intermediate is that mistakes happen and you can usually fix them without throwing out the whole project and starting over. Learn to fix mistakes and it will make your projects a lot cheaper.

@davidbennett2758

Жыл бұрын

My Dad always said: The true sign of a professional is not judged by how many mistakes you make, but how well you can cover them up. Kinda like Bob Ross, just happy little accidents lol.

Great stuff - thank you very much from all us beginners out there... only thing I'm not sure about is clamps. I love my Bessey clamps - I find cheap clamps a pain in the arse (ass) unless they're doing 'extra hands' jobs. I've recently been templating... omg it's satisfying!!

Wonderful video

good points especially clamps

I like the squeeze out comment. As a kid in elementary school I learned from a teacher to pass "the ooze test" in regards to using too much glue and not having to clean up the mess later.

I'm learning right now how often I have to align my blade to my mitre slots.

Very good Chanel this, really enjoy your content

Great tips! Now I want to sell my water stones that I never use. Really appreciate the high quality content.

When it comes to sanding, I will say that the higher the grit of sandpaper you use the tighter the grain gets and the lighter the stain will be. Example: 180 grit on oak using honey oak stain will be darker than if you used 220 grit sandpaper. Also if you take a piece of sandpaper and go with the grain it will change the color of the stain. When you go across the grain, it leaves a mark. Orbital sanders leave swirl marks in your wood, and hand sanding with the grain eliminates a lot of that.

Hey! If you are going to test an angled piece like you did here, push the shorter side against the angle gauge then the longer piece will show any discrepancy easier.

Advice. Almost anything you build, with enough effort. Can be made with a hand saw, chisel and hammer. If there’s a simple way. Try it. If there’s a harder way. Try it. Woodworking is a series of problem solving. And the chances of something happening and then a day, a week a year later you take a step back and realize, I could have done it this way, faster, safer, more accurate is only possible if you try different approaches. You’ll find favorites. But it’s nice to learn. I learn how to do things. The hard way. And then usually because of time constraints, I end up having to buy whatever or build whatever that makes it faster easier etc. but knowing how to make something, I suppose a “traditional” way makes it so you can look down factory builds (really the whole point of this) and so you can appreciate the time and effort it takes to make something.

@NewtonMakes

Жыл бұрын

Well said.

A few people tested a few different brands of parallel clamps and found the harbor freight ones are just about as good as bessy. Only down side is harbor freight only has 2 sizes and the longer one is 48" compared to 50".

Dude I like your content and the way u go about it

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate it!

I use reclaimed lumber . 80 grit all day long on this stuff . On nice hardwood I stain/oil with 200 wet/dry . I don't have a thickness planer.

You are correct with the bias reviews. I have seen some reviews on things I own and they are flat out lying about them. After using a tool for a while you see what is good, bad and flat out horrible. What I have learned to do is follow people that you trust and watch multiple reviews. But the best method in my opinion, is to read the reviews from people that actually bought it (Amazon).

"Splash-and-go" water-stones are much more appropriate for woodworking than "soaking" water-stones. But, diamonds are great also! If you're sharpening kitchen knives, then maybe the same thing applies, but the "feel" of the two types of stones is very different. The "Zen" of precision knife sharpening is different that the "get back to work" tool sharpening.

One important note for woodworking an making other things is that as long as you are not doing it for money it do not matter how fast or how much you make. That means you can trade the use of special tools and the space needed for using more time.

Ah the table saw flip and rip method followed by the bandsaw. With thin kerf blades this works really well. In fact, unless you have resawing down, you're going to get about the same kerf loss in the end. It's a good beginner method too, because you can take progressively deeper table saw cuts up to the 3" or so max and get through a 2 x 6 this way. You do need to joint a face and edge perfectly, actually two edges or it won't work and more importantly won't be safe. Also you need to watch for tension in the wood. Because the blade is always buried it's very safe to "resaw" this way. Lacking a bandsaw a good 4 tpi hand rip saw will get through the inch or two left with a 7-8" board. A sawzall also works. Ideally a tiny bit of wood should be left uncut to keep both pieces together, but with practice you can go all the way through no problem. I've made mountains worth of sawdust this way on an old Craftsman with a 2 hp spa motor rated at 20A. It trips the breaker once in a while. A standard 15A motor is fine. The blade should have 24 teeth no more. I'm looking a those 6 tooth diamond carbide blades made for hardiboard. Will the cut be too rough? We shall see.

Great video. Very useful tips. The one about affiliation confused me though. I thought woodworkers hate kickback. (I'll see myself out.)

"Relative dimensioning" is also called "scribing" and it's the most accurate way of measuring to be honest. I teach folks that all the time. Just cut about a half blade-width longer or wider than you think you need and you can detail the cut from there for a perfect fit, either by sanding, hand planing, or cutting an "eyebrow" ... which is when you align to the blade instead of the teeth. May take a bit longer to get a precise fit, but you won't get the cuts totally wrong and waste stock.

I also use my table saw to resaw wood. However, you didn't mention one VERY important point. To resaw on the table saw. You will need to be very careful to flip it end-over-end. You can't just cut the other side willy-nilly and expect it to line up. So, cut all the way through, keep the piece in the same orientation, and then flip end over end. NOT just flip it over. It makes a difference. The good thing about this method, even if you do need to take it to the bandsaw to cut that cross-bar (the cut will look like an H after cutting on the table saw), is that the bandsaw will track against one side of the cut. Yes, that will leave you with a piece sticking up in the center of the other side, but that's easily fixed on the planer or jointer.

just happened onto this video--so true. I don't remember the Japanese term for it, but there is value in the imperfection of working in wood. at some point you can be come overcome with fit and finish and it spoils the fun of standing back and looking at something you created and saying, "i made that---pretty nice." I was lucky enough to go to grammar school when they taught "shop." A life lesson from that was watching out for your power cords , still meaninful.

@elmohead

Жыл бұрын

The word is wabisabi

@brucenewman6577

Жыл бұрын

@@elmohead thank you. from "The Shining", "words to live by"

Awesome video! Thanks for the tips buddy……..and yes, sanding sucks!

@NewtonMakes

2 жыл бұрын

Yes it does, but perhaps not as sucky as stopping work to sharpen.

Lol, “things I hate: 1. Sharpening 2. Lists”😆. My first Newton Makes viewing.. I like it, really useful stuff cheers!

I have a router with a half inch bit that I used to cut holes for speaker boxes with. I got an inch and a half long bit should I do one 3/4-in panel at a time or would it be okay to go on and route out two panels and use the whole inch and a half of the router bit?

Sorry if I'm argumentative, but it is important for a really smooth project if you're finishing with an oil that you sand in steps. I use 80, 150, 220, 320, apply 2 or more coats of oil, wet sand with 1500 grit and wipe it off. Smooth as a baby's bottom.

i purchased a cheap random orbit sander for 40 pounds years ago went through 5 of them purchased a 200 pound bosch had it for 10 years just changed velcro pad......buy cheap didnt pay twice i paid 5 times over and they always let you down when you really need them