Thank you for watching the show!

@zenatsuryouichi

3 ай бұрын

It would be really great if you guys took max on as a guest for your podcast. I myself am a heroic AOTC raider and would love to just see the two different perspectives.

@6105boe

3 ай бұрын

I just cooked this one up myself - if you’re doing something special for the MoP Remix you should call it: Around the Mogu Table

@Faytelegendra

3 ай бұрын

I'm still at 17'' so my whole comment might be proven wrong, but it's hard to listen. I feel like the effort to understand the subject has not been done. Why you'd want to tackle the topic of 40 man raid first WITHOUT including the lowered difficulty topic is beyond me. So much of your comments about how it would be impossible are tied with the difficulty of the raids. To do quality comments/ takes on Asmon's, I think you have to take a step back and see his point of views, his argument being : the game as A LOT more bad players than OK players, and it used to have even more, and having most of the content catter to those "hold frostbolt Leo" players would be, according to him, saving the game. If you tackle this through this lens, your podcast subjects is completely changed and becomes "do we agree that wow has more potential if it catters to Leos instead of us. And this is way more interresting in my opinion than hearing that current heroic or mythic raid within the current game wouldn't work with 40 peoples, and that addons are required to do the difficult content. I personally don't agree with all of Asmson's take as I prefer pushing myself with friends of same skill level in hard M+, but it's also not that hard to admit there are way more bad players that can't do a +4, learn what their spells do, or complete a normal raid, and aknowledge that WoW has no interesting / epic group content for them AT ALL.

@thunderstruq1730

3 ай бұрын

Really great perspectives an good podcast, one thing would maybe be to try to not talk ocer eachother as much. Got a bit messy and hard to listen to at times!

@Kozilak

3 ай бұрын

On the topic of removing buttons. Every button that just does damage on a cooldown that doesn’t interact with any other part of your kit should absolutely be deleted

"This mcdonalds service is awful." "God damnit liquid!"

@Brewnelley

3 ай бұрын

Thinking of Firedup having to manage a McDonalds on the side had me dying

Funfact regarding Details! in the TOC file it says : "Notes: Essential tool to impress that chick in your raid." So yeah. its very much needed.

We need to get Leo on the PoddyC asap

I may be the absolute perfect casual. I'm 58 years old. Playing since vanilla. I have 25 level 70s. 99.9% of the time I run solo. I am logged on for hours everyday, doing my own thing. I almost never raid, including LFR. I do run the occasional 5 man when leveling. I no longer run battle grounds, but was in to them heavily a few years ago. I have never been in an Arena match. There are things I would like to do in the game, but find myself intimidated much of the time, and prefer not to get kicked due to my lack of knowledge. I have a fully custom UI that I created from scratch, and improving it is somewhat of a pet project. I am captivated with Weak Auras. I do not stream, but learned how to set up OBS Studio as a personal challenge. I am obsessed with TSM and making gold. I collect mounts, and recently got my 600 mount achievement. I have hundreds of battle pets, but don't realy pet battle any more. I have never been in a pet battle with another live player. If you have questions for casuals, I may be your candidate. Not seeking publicity, or my five minutes of fame.

@dyyylllaannn

3 ай бұрын

Nice. Don't be intimidated to join LFR it's a good way to see the top end content without having to minmax your gear and rotation

@TheRyoux

3 ай бұрын

Yea do LFR it's literally made for you, you'll enjoy ir

@Sammysapphira

3 ай бұрын

​@@dyyylllaannnlfr is the very opposite of top end content. It's easier than world quests.

@dyyylllaannn

3 ай бұрын

@@Sammysapphira not what I meant, I know what LFR difficulty is brother. I mean you can see the raid instance that gets scaled up into Mythic difficulty without the high stakes.

@loganboyd10

3 ай бұрын

Love to hear it! game on, homie.

the disc priest button bloat reduction has been pretty good with putting schism into mind blast and voidform on mindbender

I fucking love when you do shit like this and the undercover raider thing. It’s like a gritty journalist getting a finger on the pulse of the real WoW. Casuals are so foreign that it’s so interesting

@kyleellis1825

3 ай бұрын

Which is trange, considering casual outnumber the hardcore by a wide margin.

@dyyylllaannn

3 ай бұрын

Gonzo WoW journalism lol

@iragibson560

3 ай бұрын

@@kyleellis1825not that crazy because the casual isn’t going to create content or have a video for anyone to “react” to.

@WhopperCheeseDota

3 ай бұрын

These people aren't casual, they are just standard stupid players who play a lot

@kyleellis1825

3 ай бұрын

@@iragibson560 They still have to interact with them when they run around orgrimmar/stormwind.

feel like 40 man mythic raids is gonna blow some pc ups in this time of raiding lmao

@ChahtaAnumpa

3 ай бұрын

even my 13900k and 4090 struggles from its 300 fps at 1440p general curve then it tanks down to 50-70 fps in some raid encounters 😂 that fps loss is insane lol make that 40 man and hot damn you need my pc just to get through a raid fight.

@g.henriquecosta983

3 ай бұрын

Asmongold is a clown. Unbelievable clown

@schmidth

3 ай бұрын

@@ChahtaAnumpa gotta get yourself a 5800x3d :D

@exaqtian

3 ай бұрын

Thats blizzards fault, You could host a single private server on your home PC and get better performance. Blizzard decided to create a giant mesh network across their whole server architecture and the downside is peoples data has to jump through quite a few more nodes compared to how it used to be a direct connection to server. Unfortunately the downside of this in a game that has its gamespeed tied to the server (for speedhack protection purposes) is slowing your FPS down , its a failsafe to keep everything running so that the server can make sure it can keep track of your characters position at all times as a form of cheat protection aswell as just being generally how MMOs function. Basically blizzard could fix this if they werent so bad at networking.

@WotsOnSecond2

3 ай бұрын

Can someone explain to me why people think that Asmon wants 40 man mythic raids? He never said that. I'm pretty sure he mentioned that there should only be 1 raid difficulty, and raids should be easier

meanwhile I am just sitting here, watching Maxs' videos while collecting pets and doing quests all day. this is the true chill life

@Kshaadoo

Ай бұрын

A peaceful life brother, doing the same thing.

@EyeKahnography

Ай бұрын

sometimes all it takes to impress the people in your raid is to not stand in fire and to take your danger puddles out of melee. The smallest of asks lol

"everyone raided back in the day" is a misconception imho, there were so many casuals and pvpers who never raided. I'm pretty sure raids are more accessible than ever in retail WoW, even when you exclude LFR

@recaster1165

3 ай бұрын

Well there are 3 types of raids compared to before to only being one. No one want's to do the easiest one since it give's shit gear compared to the hardest one. Unlike before there was only one difficulty.

@fleshhunter8703

3 ай бұрын

It feels like a weird statement as someone who played since Vanilla because... There was "Backups" who didn't really get to raid, and suppliers for the raids who also didn't raid.

@jsingle5

3 ай бұрын

They 100% are, but only insofar as attunements being gone and that finding a group that can clear the content is much, much easier in retail (to a point) than in the classic era of WoW. Big agree as well. There were a huge amount of players in older WoW that didn't raid whatsoever. PvPers, collectors, alt-aholics, 'casuals', etc. They're still a large chunk of the playerbase today.

@moldgrim1

3 ай бұрын

True. I've been pugging for curve since Legion. Very accessible.

@RGS578

3 ай бұрын

Raid participation was incredibly low back in the day. I remember inspecting people's gear Vanilla-Wraith, as a 9 year old kid gawking at higher leveled players. Finding a single person, with a single epic, was rare. And finding someone with full epics, there were like 5 people surrounding them at all times, as if they were celebrities.

(52:45) I'm so glad she stiff armed that guy. He was talking over her a lot.

@MCG55SS

Ай бұрын

i laughed when she was like "i don't need dbm to raid" but then said it was nice if she zoned so specifically without DBM she would be dead on the ground most raid night.

I can already see the leo thing becoming a meme

@billytheweasel

3 ай бұрын

"I ain't your Leo" < yeah, I'm feeling that

2:01:39 when discussing learning the rotations I had a thought. Could be a great opportunity to make class trainers relevant again. Give them text options or maybe even quests to teach you your abilities. Ex. Use heroic strike 5 times on a training dummy. Could even make it a full tutorial chain and upon completion you unlock an old class tier set, or a new minor class set. Makes use of the class trainers, teaches you your abilities, possible reward for all players, and adds more class feel by actually visiting the trainer.

Chronically online is such a strange insult because it is exclusively used by people who are chronically online

@fdajax5107

3 ай бұрын

The pot calling the kettle black

@billymays9296

3 ай бұрын

Chronically online refers to people who are chronically online on social media/in streams and aren't able to form their own thoughts or opinions, so they just regurgitate things they hear online 24/7 without ever stopping to think if what they're hearing/reading and regurgitating blindly is correct or logical. That's why it's an insult, because it's low IQ people who can't think for themselves.

@Hbookerz

3 ай бұрын

I mean, you kinda have to be chronically online, at least at some point in your life, to know that they (we) exist

@AiR1DaN

3 ай бұрын

I insult myself this way all the time. Seeing the same meme/post, recognizing a story from years ago, etc. I've been chronically online for nearly 2 decades now

@2o3ief

3 ай бұрын

That's not true, I use it a decent amount in a descriptive capacity not as a targeted personal insult and I am not

Dear max ! As an lfr raider and super casual person. Thank you for highlighting this topic! I'd love to chat with you one day about all this stuff =) but I agree, it's hard to get a different perspective on a game I think we all love !!

@billytheweasel

3 ай бұрын

Same, but this casual likes to hear Esports gamers and sweaters discuss their craft, and dream...lol.

I always find it strange when accessibility is brought up and then attacked. "If you need a special tool you don't deserve to be here" is something that'd get you fired if you said it to a coworker, so why the fuck is it acceptable in-game?

@dilididli2274

2 ай бұрын

People bring the addon are required argument cuz WoW UI is just bad. Stuff like transmog addon could have just been added by blizzard. Their are MMO's with less resources then blizzard that been able to do it so.

I think a lot of people never played Classic 40 man raids. The point of 40 man raids was to compensate for the parent who mid raid has to get his kids food, or someone who DCs or answers the door/phone, or one or two people arent hardcore raiders. Its basically a tour guide of a 20 man raid for 20 more people. 40 man raiding also allowed people to goof off a bit and talk in Vent without being muted.

"At ease" lol even though he didn't actually say that, I'm definitely gonna use that expression lol

@omensoffate

3 ай бұрын

That wouldn’t make sense to use at ease in that context 😂

Thank you for giving a voice to the people! 🙏

Great upload, Max was hilarious and cool to see more casuals and players that also live in reality as well as Azeroth have a voice for a change

In one of the guilds that I’m in they have their mythic raid group, that I was a part of for a few tiers (I don’t raid Mythic anymore for personal reasons), has a heroic alt night raid where anyone in the guild (and often friends of members of the guild) will come and clear the raid. The raid will be completely full and there’s definitely some people that should not be there. What should take an hour or so to do ends up taking 3 hours because of wipes on the last 3 bosses of the raid. I couldn’t imagine trying to do it with 40 people as opposed to the 30 when a lot of them are carries.

Crucible of Storms and Trial of Valor were some of my favorite raids they created. I only did Heroic on Crucible (because I wasn't good enough for Mythic at that time) and 2/3M on ToV (also skill issue back then). I think it hit the perfect point of having a cosmetic & power reward that was powerful, but not necessary (as they were not full tiers). It was something that was designed specifically for top end guilds/higher end raiders to enjoy and gave people something to strive for in a smaller timeframe. Whenever I see someone who killed Mythic Crucible bosses when it was current, I KNOW they are a fucking gamer and a half for my key

Fun vid, interesting hearing you react to different player perspectives

Love this content, I only play wow for m+ and I’ve been at the 1%< level for about 4 years so I never really interact with the population outside of that. Always interesting to see other takes and how people perceive the game.

i get spoiled on the Poddy C where everyone has good chemistry with each other even in disagreements. There's no interrupting and trying to force your opinion in that mess of everyone trying to talk over each other until others give up trying to talk. But also in Poddy C yall make note that someone wanted to speak and let them do so after someone says something.

@dyyylllaannn

3 ай бұрын

Yeah the interrupting was tough as nails but Maxxy baby made it a little better by pausing lol

@billytheweasel

3 ай бұрын

I'm usually against the death penalty but interrupting in any sort of broadcast to an audience... Ya just gotta go. Darwin says.

@Sadistichippo

2 ай бұрын

Agreed, it’s the thing that throws me the most in podcasts I’m listening to. I want it to feel like a conversation not an argument.

My guild has been dead since Shadowlands. sometimes on raid nights we will have between 6 and 8 people online. If we even raid, it’s because we pug enough to get to 10 from an ex-guildie who moved realms. We finished normal Amirdrassil but never got to do heroic. If finishing heroic is top 6% ish, then we must be closer to the 50% mark. Speaking then as a “casual”, I spend my time mount collecting, pet collecting, levelling alts, and recently I’ve been working on the DF meta achieve. I care about group content but I never have a group to do it, and pugging has personally always scared me. The very thought of 40 man raiding in modern wow is inconceivable to me. My guild has about 9 active players, where do you even get the extra 31? Thank you for platforming this group and providing some alternative perspectives. Love your content!

@user-nz4un6se7y

3 ай бұрын

Try thinking why you have less players available nowadays. People just don't want to bother with what it takes to raid

@emikochan13

2 ай бұрын

the 40s would be easier, I can't believe so many people didn't listen to Asmon's point. People would just queue up for big epic raids like the 24s in ffxiv. The hard content is limited to 8 in that game.

Explosive shot slowly turning your hunter into a Kaiju-size over the course of the fight sounds like good fun.

I disbanded my guild after before the start of S4 after a full dragonflight nonstop full completion tier (7/9mm in ATDH) because of the previous s3 25man roster, i had 8 people left. It was just too much time consuming, i had to be talking with the lads to see what they needed from me, from the raid, when someone couldnt come, i had to replace him, if everyone showed up, i had leave someone out. In between day raids, i had to reclute and spent 30 min talking to someone to explain him the basics about the guild and raid. Eventually all i just did was manage the guild/raid and not play the game. I had signup for a part-time job and it felt 60h/week. WoW needs flexibility, more people in the lead helps but everyones got an opinion and the feeling of leadership quickly fades out if left unmanaged (and managing it requires discussions)

The why we use addons is the base of the argument, and I’m pretty sure the no addon group wants a better in game system of ability telegraphs and timing so there isn’t a need for them. Now for personal and group/raid wide cds a UI that integrates that could do that. Honestly this whole argument comes down to choice, some players want to personalize everything and others want it streamlined so there’s no thought process involved other than when and where(including all elements of gameplay in this statement)

I know only a 'niche' audience is interested in this, but a lot of this pronunciation debates come down to American vs British. This word kind of pisses me off because it's yet another exception. Very often it will seem that there is a pronunciation that retains the original pronunciation of the language it was imported from. And often Americans will do that. And then there's a phonetic pronunciation, which is how the British often go. But not here. It starts in France as 'neesh'. The British actually manage to respect the French (first time ever? no. but it's rare enough.) and keep the pronunciation. Americans go full Teddy Roosevelt and go phonetic with 'nich'. Though many Americans say 'neesh'. Like I went to public school in the South. So you'd expect me to have some degen pronunciation. But no even I say 'neesh'.

@ihavealife002

3 ай бұрын

Grew up in the south and everyone I know says "neesh" as well.

@Sadistichippo

2 ай бұрын

In my mind I use “neesh” for the meaning of a unique or infrequent scenario. and I use “nitch” for the original meaning of a small cutout in a wall.

@krystalphillips3555

Ай бұрын

I don't think it is an education thing, I think it is Geo-political and demographical reason. Majority of US citizens were force to adopt English but were European and Native speakers first so their source languages influence how they speak and teach English. I have lived in in UK, all over Europe and all over the US. Majority of US citizens don't realize they have little connection at all to the British Empire their Country revolted against even when the revolt happen. British were behind in colonizing the Americas and it technically was an act of geo-political chess that caused it existence more than itself lol. The Spanish/Dutch/French were in control of the majority of America and supported and took part in our revolution only to be conquered or bought by the upstarts they supported and majority of the everyday people who are not English were forced to adopt English.

On hekili specifically, it absolutely helps me learn a class faster but you have to know when to ignore it as well which just comes with experience and knowing the encounters. It also gives bad suggestions or is just straight up almost unusable depending on the spec, and unless I have never played the spec at all before I always turn off cooldowns in the settings. Even after I've learned the spec I leave it on, my mind tends to lose focus for short periods of time especially when it comes to rotation, it helps me to have something to look at to get me back on track, but a lot of the time I'm not actively looking at or following it, or I see what it's telling me to cast and ignoring it because I know better. Hekili basically gets me to like 90%+ ilvl parses on a spec I have never played or haven't played in a long time, my own refinement, learning the spec, and thinking about why it is suggesting certain abilities and applying that to varied raid fights gets me the rest of the way over the course of a few resets. It is 100% a learning tool for me that gets me to a competent level with a spec much faster than reading guides and trial and error would, but for some players it can definitely be harmful, especially if they just blindly follow it and blow cooldowns at bad times because it told them to.

@CaloCreek

3 ай бұрын

I only recommend Hekili to people trying to get into a new class, and to be careful not to use it indefinitely as you can't get a higher understanding of your class if you're just pressing the buttons it tells you. You need to understand how your class functions to know when hekili is not giving you the best advice, and you will struggle to be successful in higher level content if you're highly reliant on it. That said, some people want to just do 'good enough' and not have to get too deep into their class, and hekili is a great option for those people as well!

I'm somebody who has used details to make me better, especially since I swapped mains going into DF. I went from a mid-marksman hunter to top 4 on my server. It also helped me with my warlock alt! I could see who was performing better etc and it'd let me know to check out what they were doing like Max said and I could see why somebody had a crazier pull than me or was crushing damage on a boss I was doing meh against. It was even huge for my priest alt in season 1 to get an idea of how other healers were doing stuff vs what I was doing right or wrong. I think if they ever get rid of combat addons and details or w/e gets caught up in that I'd like to see them integrate it into the game officially since it's been so massive for me to work on my own stuff.

On the topic of suki not knowing what to click on frost mage, arcane again is a perfect example. All are pink, and all are called "arcane ______". Arcane blast, arcane explosion, arcane intellect, arcane missels, arcane barrage. They just phoned that shit in lol

@outbreak2289

3 ай бұрын

There's more arcane skills btw ha

Only at 1:42:00, so not sure if this gets more fleshed out later, but I think my biggest issue with WoW rotations is that there are so many interaction points and passives and procs that it becomes difficult to figure out an optimized rotation. The example that fueled all of this was Venruki watching a video of an Arcane Mage guide in 10.1 and just how off the walls the pre-pull was because of everything that can proc and different buffs to manage and certain passives that need to be handled, before you even pushed a button. For Outlaw Rogue, they even have an opener now where they press 5 buttons before the boss is even pulled because of how 1 passive interacts with 3 different buffs. Once you get into the rotation for Outlaw rogue you have 13 different buttons that you press at various points in your rotation based on how your buffs are lining up with CDs. And because each of these 13 abilities all have different buffs or passive effects you basically need someone to guide you on how to line everything up and working it out on your own becomes ridiculously hard. Compare that to ARPGs, games that also have fun gameplay, and have 3-4 button rotations. There are passives and legendary effects and everything else, but they all interact in intuitive ways that you can work out. You press this button and then this button because the buff from the first button gets enhanced by the passive of the second button or whatever is happening in your particular build. While you may not get an optimized rotation/damage, you can get a large part of the way there because it is possible to work out how your spells are interacting with your passives/legendary effects/other spells. With WoW it's nigh impossible to work out a rotation on your own, unless you are only every playing WoW and you know how these sorts of rotations generally work from prior experience. That's the button bloat problem to me, it's the fact that you have 6-7 different rotation buttons and then 7-8 different passive effects that modify each of those buttons that makes it extremely challenging to figure out which order to press your rotation in to maximize damage or get a decent amount out of your character.

@dyyylllaannn

3 ай бұрын

in Classic WotLK I'm equipping a phase 1 trinket before every boss pull in phase 4 to proc an effect then swapping back to the phase 3 trinket before combat starts to get the extra proc so. War, war never changes

@jakehr3

3 ай бұрын

@@dyyylllaannn I don't think that pre-pull shenanigans are inherently bad. Pre-casting pyroblast as fire mage is fun, stealthing up to a boss so you can ambush it is fun. My complaint is more at when it isn't obvious to the player what they should be doing. 1 or 2 consequential rotation spells/passives are generally easy to wrap your head around. Slice and Dice increases attack speed with combo points, eviscerate does damage with combo points, and sinister strike builds combo points. Now, maybe in that scenario you get wrong how many CP to spend on which things, but it is pretty clear that you spend CP on your SnD and eviscerate to do the most damage. That's 3 things to wrap your head around. Retail WoW takes that same rotation and adds 2 new finishers, a builder, adds additional passive effects/buffs for hitting your builders and spenders -- with some buffing other builders and spenders -- and what starts as a simple decision trees turns into a sprawling Markov chain that is nigh impossible to figure out without outside assistance.

@brianortega1637

Ай бұрын

This is why I play BM hunter. I have a bunch of fun raiding and mythic+ without my brain exploding, and still do very good dmg.

This is top notch content. Could very easily take the place of my usual green noise vibes for a fast an deep night sleep.

new sub here just want to say the chat here is a nice change and i would like to say ty. Yep an older casual here as well and nice people can have an opinion and not be told "get GOOOD" or some other smart ass remark ty again. i do like hearing or reading other peoples opinions and seeing those here that will offer players such as myself advice or where let me know where to find the info. ty ty ty

Imo the 40man raid is terrible idea not only because it is hard to find that amount of like-minded players wit ha similar timeschedule and commitment to be able to regularly meet and raid. But also mathematically it would bring even large discrepency in the roles. Very high ranked players (who play usually in their pool of players) and content creators that can fill several 40man raids in minutes anytime they want, probably dont see it. High ranked DPS players on correct characters can easily spec tanks for dungeons, people have several alts for different roles etc. But if you are running mostly in the groups with limited time, you dont have multiple geared characters, possible you dont even have that much time to learn offspecs and feel comfortable enough tanking etc it is already a problem as it is now. Lets put it this way. You have "casual" mythic guild (by casual I mean, not hardcore, rauding only several hours a week, maybe not even getting cutting edges etc. You will porbably have roster of around 25 players (maybe a bit more) so you are able to confortably have 20 people every raid night. Out of that, you will have probably around 5-6 healers, which is fine, but only 2 main tanks. Potentially 1 dps player that is regularly offtanking whenever one of the tanks is not avilable. But to be able to confortably have 5 or more m+ groups, you need 5 players willing (and be able to) tank. Already creating a tank shortage. If you move this numebr higher, and create 40man as a main raid. The raid will still very likely be designed to have 2 (maybe 3 on some bosses) tanks, making even larger mathematical gap between the roles, having even less tanks for m+ group. In my experience the situation is very bad already at the start of the season as it is (when everyone plays mostly only their mains, and mostly main roles). It is hard to find tanks in guild, it is hard to find tanks in pugs. Yes eventually as people get overgeared and dont have to play great to be successful for weekly runs, and start running alts etc, it usually evens out, but the start of the season is nightmare. And with making the mathematical gap between roles even larger sounds insane to me. If anything I would try to already fight the current problem. Obvious solution looks like switching raid to 15man only, but I dont think that is great and that would take a lot from current raid design. So my suggestion would go other way around, by changing party (and dungeon) size to 6 (designed around 4 dps).

@Draik41

3 ай бұрын

It's more of a community take than actual 40 man. Back when there were 40 man raids, player interaction on a server meant everything. Now with LFR and group finder and cross realm merging, it doesnt really feel like raids are raids. Also, pugs leaving werent really a thing because of raid lockouts. Now half the pugs leave after 1 wipe, both in raid and M+.

@dawnstar81

3 ай бұрын

40 man were horrible looking back at it. 1/3 to half the raid had to be dragged through it by the rest, getting that many people together was a whole other endeavor. Not to mention those were raids with hardly any mechanics and the few bosses that had mechanics literally broke guilds, especially middle of the road ones.

@MuDkipzCHancelLOr

3 ай бұрын

40 man raids make as much sense as moving the only raid difficulty that matters to 20 man only from both 10/25. I haven't raided since this change, there is no point in raiding the lower difficulties because the rewards are essentially worthless. Raids should be 7-10 players. This game is full of people my age who can't find that many people or losers who only play until 12a-1a on work nights. The only people who have the time to setup raids for wow are the dregs of society.

@dawnstar81

3 ай бұрын

@@MuDkipzCHancelLOr Bit of a boomer take there buddy. I have 4 kids and can find the time to raid, not on a schedule, but I can do a run once a week or so. People who have more time are mostly the same who always raided a lot, high school/college students and people with jobs where you have a consistent schedule and no other obligations really. We just got older and are no longer that demographic.

@NokoFace

2 ай бұрын

@@MuDkipzCHancelLOr I don't even raid and this is the worst take I've ever heard. The lower difficulties aren't "essentially worthless" because heroic still gives good loot that helps progress on mythic. Calling people who raid mythic "losers who only play until 12 - 1am" is so ridiculous I can only assume you're trolling, because a ton of raiders have day jobs and a ton of raid groups start at 6pm and end at 9 or 10pm.

As a casual raider, I did one full raid tier as a challenge without any addons, except for Details! (because how will i know if i did better or worse from not having them) and without dbm and countdowns I was the same, but without a weak aura showing me my cds and when they are off even with the buttons in my face I did about 15% worse than normal. So I feel like it's possible to do raids without any addons but I have seen some below average people who think they are the best and doing the best they can, but still under performing compared to others by about 70% of what they could do, and they will never take advice or want to improve, they are just satisfied being mediocre.

@Zwow007

3 ай бұрын

I think its fine for people who want to stay mediocre lets them stay in their whole own little bubble and echo chamber. Doing raids without addons is fine also addons just allow you to offload a lot of mental gymnastics to focus on other aspects of the raid which overall benefit you. I hate the argument people make about details causing toxicity tho that's stupid if people just use it as a justification to be toxic so they don't look like ass hats which them complaining already make them look like one. The type of people to complain about dps through meters are just toxic and would be toxic even if details weren't there.

I know I'm late to watching this vid, but Max and liquid catching the strays on their bread into the Mcdonalds bit is just *chefs kiss*

I love that you keep talking about people using boss lines to learn mechanics. Once I started doing this understanding optimization in raid and also placement became way easier. While I like having timers from WAs after a week or so in the raid I can pretty much ignore them for audio qs.

"leaving is probably not a common thing for 2-10" it unfortunately is common. It's a VERY common thing. And I barely ever dip my toes in keys that low lol

Different raid that's harder is exactly what TBC was at the time. When I was Raiding Black Temple wearing T6, some guilds were progging Gruul. I've had this take for YEARS as somebody who doesn't care about gear much, my biggest motivation to raid were the bosses themselves. I wanted to see Illidan, I wanted to see Archimonde. If there were 3 difficulties of Black Temple I wouldn't have been motivated at all. This is why all tiers were relevant the whole time for classic & TBC, cause the progression was through the raids, not difficulty re-runs.

@MrSherhi

3 ай бұрын

yup and top 1% cried 24/7/365 because their guilds were stealing players from lower tiers, players were leaving and guilds were disbanding....so now we do the same stuff for months and guilds disband anyway and there is nowhere to actually progress

@nectarpeach2853

2 ай бұрын

@scoops2 the multiple difficulties for one raid really does water it down too much, makes the raid itself and the individual bosses feel less important.

I'm only 30 min in, but want to say this. I think it would be great if the devs made raids kind of like attacking a castle. Massive 40 man LFR style raids which is like launching massive volleys of arrows and trying to get to the walls. Then you get 25-30 man raids which is for those who get into the castle walls and begin charging the ramparts. Then you get 20 man raids which is raiding the treasuring and stealing animals Then you get 10 can raids which is busting into the keep and taking out the guard and capturing the castle. Then you need to defeat each larger raid and have to progress to get to the tighter group raid. 40 -> 25/30 -> 20 -> 10

Love this video and discussion. Keep it up Max

Watched it on stream, but this is very cool

Asmon content is not Asmons anymore. Editors just make it from stream and Asmon doesn't care about it.

I was zoned out just listening to you guys. I agree with the take about different items dropping in mythic. 👍

i sometimes get below 20 fps in a 20 man raid with low graphics settings on a super high end pc, i dont wanna imagine what a 40 man raid would look like in 2024

"All addons gone, no exception." Well, damn, talk about taking a tactical nuke to the Roleplaying servers who primarily use stuff like TRP3 to make their character profiles

As an RPer it's always interesting to hear takes from the high end Mythic players, because it truly is just a different thing that we want out of the game and different reasons. But what we get into in differences starts getting into development priorities over actual encounter design etc. As someone who's rejection anxiety drives me FAR away from PUGs, it can be difficult to do content in modern wow, because as a healer, failing a M+ can devastate my entire day on a mood level. But to folks who really do enjoy the game, that's just sort of part of the process. Like as an RPer, we basically have to have addons to really do things like profiles or stuff like musician because there just isn't any sort of in game equivalent functionality.

@dyyylllaannn

3 ай бұрын

Yeah failure is part of success, can't be scared of it. Everyone who is good at something failed at it hundreds/thousands of times first.

@Noriaela

3 ай бұрын

RP is one of the biggest things I bring up when people mention removing all addons. RPers literally generate their own types of content and removing addons completely rips that away. I dont personally RP and dont see the appeal but I dont want people losing their reason to play the game because a portion of the community wants addons removed.

@NokoFace

2 ай бұрын

@@Noriaela There is unfortunately, A LOT of people that still look at RP as a "meme" or as "weird" or just forget it exists entirely. If Blizzard killed addons, they would effectively kill the RP scene.

No idea if you see this max but what arcane has is burst windows that need to be both set up and maintained properly, and you have to track what seems like 17 different buffs and timers all while tracking your mana, plus your rotation can completely change depending on adds/aoe, it's a lot of mental bandwidth while you are also managing encounter mechanics.

@Brby1

2 ай бұрын

I used to play Arcane until a couple of days ago. When I started playing Mage at the beginning of DragonFlight, I was in between Arcane and Fire, but ultimately chose Arcane. Fire put me off because "casting while casting" was such a foreign concept to me, I didn't think I would figure it out. I tried Fire this Wednesday, turns out it's easier to press Fire Blast while casting another spell than it is to track 8 cooldowns.

37:32 - I remember feeling this way about guilds clearing Halion in the Ruby Sanctum at the end of Wrath because my guild had stopped raiding

Get Leo on the Poddy C

Hey Max, I think you should reach out to this group to see if they wanted to do a joint discussion. It would give them a bigger launch pad and make for an interesting conversation. You get to hear them cook in this video but the conversation seems to of launched into different tangents instead of staying on course. I think your points and letting them chew on that would be very interesting. Personal points - Isn't LFR 40 man? Personally I hate the idea of no addons. I have autism and I need ElvUI to structure my interface to fit my devices for brain to hand structure. I hate that the game does not tell me how to play better. I play Demonology warlock and there are many buttons and the game does not tell me what is my optimal rotation. The game does not tell you if you are doing the right rotation or the wrong rotation. It won't tell you when you do something wrong and explain why. I just know my dps meter is not as good as other demonology warlock players. I want to do better. But with all of my research I have not been able to get better than where I am at. I hate combat logs for raids because it just tells me that I am garbage for parsing.

@TheBaldr

2 ай бұрын

I also have accessibility issues, addons help alot, i started raiding back in Wrath and while not the best at DPS I could do the raids. I can't even do LFRs in retail today without dieing on every boss. However I was able to BRD in SoD and be top DPS in my guild.

Glad you do stuff like this so I can listen and do other stuff

I think that the different type of dispels required makes things confusing for new players. People just use the term dispel on a debuff and you have to know what type of debuff it is. in FFXIV we have Esuna. It removes any sort of debuffs that are put on your party members. It's specifically on healers. Let healers remove debuffs. Less buttons for dps or tanks.

For what it's worth, one thing that gets lost so much in the addons, number of players in a raid, and accessibility discussions is the player who is worse than all their friends but still wants to play content with them because they like playing games with their friends. When you remove things like bigwigs/dbm, hekili, or weakauras this is one of the larger groups that get negatively affected. It's also why the argument of "That content just isn't for YOU" falls flat to them. They don't care as much about doing the content as they do about playing with their friends but also not dragging them down. Almost no one WANTS to be at the bottom, but if you remove all of the help some people get from these types of things they suddenly may not even get to play the content with their friends at all. While that's fine to some people, it sucks a lot for the person who just wanted to vibe in a game with their friends and help them do cool shit together a few times a week.

@emikochan13

2 ай бұрын

they don't get negatively effected because it comes with a reduction in difficulty so the game is still doable for them. The point is that people who want high end competitive gameplay shouldn't be in mmos in the first place.

@luisandrade2120

Ай бұрын

Man, i feel the problem is exaxtly that, imagine a game where for.people play together u need to install a third partie thing om wich u could finally play the game to a bare minimum. Thats bad game design in my opinion, the game is too hard, its too bloated and its too punishing. I wouldnt mind playing a hard mythic dg with my friends, but the feeling of not beeing good enough, and because of that the key is over just sucks, why dont u remove keys then? The keys are an example.of the bad game design ima talking about, it gatekeeps people who just wanna have fun in the game. About dbm, i agree, it helps a lot, but it should be implemented on the game, and not.a third party program, but still, its REQUIRED because the game its too punishing every single content

Just because it was brought up at some point, Runescape 3 (retail) is an example of a game with rotational bloat (10+ abilities). The initial introduction of abilities to Runescape was so bad that they had to add a system (Revolution) that pressed the buttons for you (it'll use abilities in order on your bar, according to what's on CD). While the Revolution system is enough for casuals to play the game, players that manually press their abilities learned that weapon swapping gave you access to dual wield and 2H abilities that didn't share cooldowns. As well as swapping to a shield gave you access to some broken defensives (the devs even regret making defensives as strong as they did). It's so bad that top players were doing 200+ Actions-per-minute just juggling the amount of buffs and switches for maximum output/survivability. I'd compare it to playing Outlaw while having the CD sequence of Arcane Mages and access to a Blood DK's Death Strike (if you equip a shield). The devs learned from their mistake, that when they released Necromancy (the first combat skill added since RS began), they made sure to keep the rotational abilities to a minimum (about 6 + 3 CD's). Now, I'm not saying one game is better/worse in terms of bloat. I think the real "bloat" in WoW is the amount of things you have to track for some specs and the addons/WA that are made to help you track them. Some specs, like Assassin and Arcane, have crafted sequences for their CD's based around timings, while something like Outlaw has a crazy amount of buffs to keep track of if playing Keep It Rolling.

Even a positive clip would be spun into: " SAVED?!?!?" as if it couldn't just be something that was okay and is now really good. It needs to be dramatic! This system needs its hero's journey!

To Blizzards benefit. Look at the number of people who was actually able to see Naxxramas in original classic wow. Less than 1% of players actually got to see the content. This is even before KZread at that point. So even third party viewership was extremely minute. That content cost a lot of money to be made and it was paid for by everyone that bought the game and subscribed. The raid was removed and brought back in Wrath of the Lich King. That was a fabulous move to maintain the employee value that they spent and enabled so many more people to see that content. Elitism does not sell the game. If it did, you would see so many more guilds aiming at World First. No one that buys the game for the first time tomorrow will be raiding at Mythic level this week with zero experience of how to play the game and classes. It takes an investment of time and effort to get there.

@Iraphone

3 ай бұрын

I mean... Naxx was notorious with being available for a shorter timeline than any previous raid. And afaik it was announced or released AFTER TBC was announced. I dont remember the exact timeline but naxx' got shafted cus of tbc

45 minutes into watching this and I've never felt more sympathy than I do for Leo. The poor dude cannot catch a break. Justice for Leo, I say.

I'm literally playing just with Details and Threat Plates for years now because I prefer the clear look of my interface while doing boss fights. I'm also concentrating on boss voice lines and abilities to know whats going on, so that I'm not reliant on DBM for example

As someone who has played since Vanilla and has been a CE raider. The thing that made me love this game when I was younger was flavor. Every class had a fantasy, and was unique. I had the most fun playing the game as a solo player. But has the game aged, there was this focus on blasting, both as a healer and dps. I don't log in to be top of a meter, that's not fun. Some of the most fun I had in this game was learning my class and running around playing what the game had to offer. Not everything was time gated. In today's game, it feels like a race against the 1 week reset timer, and a dps meter race. A lot of the lower level groups only seek out meta comps based on what the .01% are playing. And that's toxic in itself. I have so much to say about what the game is missing. But a lot of what these guys argue back and forth hit the problems, and it's nice to hear some of this come to light. The game is slowly moving away from unique class fantasy, because everyone wants their class to do everything someone else's class can do. I also think the comments on having mythic raid be different from core game raid could be based. It's so far removed from the casual player. And on the opposite end, doing LFR raid ruins the fun of the raid. Feels like you're killing rares in the open world. I've been on a kick recently about how much people are voicing what they wanna see in the game. I'm here for it.

The split between classic and retail styles is very much my problem with WOW. I'm a dad play vanilla and TBC then came back for classic. However I now find classic class design and play style overly simple and boring but I love it's reward system and fewer difficulty levels, or even just one and you can choose to make it harder by going faster or bringing fewer people. I love retail class design and the play style of retail but the hollowness of the rewards and the constant running of the same content for the rewards you already have just a few ilvls higher is trash and super hamster wheely. Not to mention the total death of gear prestige due to transmog and the toxicity of people taking your upgrades for transmog.

@Schuler97

Ай бұрын

An interesting remix would be vanilla with retail classes. I wouldn't play it; but I'm sure it would pop for a bit. Maybe private server potential

You should invite Leo on the poddy c

I enjoyed this. Getting Max's take on other content creators and players perspectives is interesting. I'm an exclusively casual dad pvper so my takes are even very different again.

Enjoyable video. If you ever want a really out there opinion, I just came back to the game after about two years for no other reason than I missed the game. I fell in love with WoD again while leveling haven't gone back to the Shadowlands or touched Dragonflight. I am enjoying just hanging out doing fishing, pet collecting, mount collecting, transmog collecting etc. As far as Asmon goes he is the ultimate Millennial and drives me to drink almost every time I see one of his videos.

40 man raiding is fucking stupid.. That would kill 90% of guilds. Hell, many guilds are already having trouble keeping 20 for mythic..

@ThePalo48

3 ай бұрын

Probably more because mythic breaks guilds like twigs nowadays. Not cause there aren't people that want to do it lol

@Zwow007

3 ай бұрын

blizz should just say screw it make a have mini raid with 2-3 bosses with a decent amount of mechanics from retail before the actual tier raid releases and have it be 40 mannable and see how the people that want 40 mans react when they try to set up groups. no LFR just manually grabbing people in chat or getting 40 guildies together the classic experience and see how many people they are actually able to pick up to shatter their delusion of 40 man content.

@terrancepage9163

3 ай бұрын

just get rid of mythic raids. Problem solved. The percentage of players who actually do mythic anymore is like 0.5% nobody has time to spend 40 hrs a week on a video game to raid and maintain your character

@AtomicOverdrive

3 ай бұрын

@@terrancepage9163 Yea I agree. Plus it ruins Heroic raiding as few players want to join a heroic raiding team as they feel like they have no progression once heroic is cleared a few times. So they join guild or teams that raid mythic. Despite the fact they them self may not be up to the skill level needed for mythic, or really dont have the time to invest in it. Yet, think they must.

As one of those in that "huge muddled middle" I can honestly say that if they got rid of ALL add-ons, I'd quit playing. Hard stop.

@Dangerous1939

3 ай бұрын

Which Addons specifically? What if they kept API access for QoL Stuff (Auction House, Collections, Completionism, Mail, etc) but removed all combat related stuff (DBM/Bigwigs, Weakauras, Damage Meters) and then implemented better Voice and Visual cues, improved the Blizzard UI for personal Buff/Debuff tracking and tried a personal Dmg recap at the end of a fight

@zacharybryant3865

3 ай бұрын

And that’s a clear indication the game’s design is trash. That we HAVE to rely on it.

@WelsyCZ

3 ай бұрын

@@Dangerous1939 But I dont think people are realizing what they mean when they say combat related stuff. I hard dont fuck with blizzard UI. I absolutely hate it. So I really like having a UI addon that allows me to change up the unitframes, the actionbars, windows, etc. But if you removed combat related stuff, you would remove the API to access buffs, debuffs. And so the UI addon could not use those. Instead they would only allow you to reposition the debuff window on the target, but it could no longer access them to f.e. filter through some unnecessary ones. This is especially problematic on party and raid frames. So thats an issue that would have to be resolved and would not be super easy. And the take that they would "improve the blizzard UI for personal buff/debuff tracking" is fair, but it once again limits the players options. Maybe the customizability wouldnt be enough or there would be functionality missing. And its all adding onto blizzards plate, they would suddenly have to develop shit they didnt need to up until now, because addons do it for them. This means less game content for us, because some dev has to be fucking with UI all the time. Details - from HC Raid Leader perspective, I can figure out what went wrong thanks to details. Its an extremely helpful tool for figuring this out. If you removed the ability to look at performance of others (I assume peopel also wanna remove logs along with details), then outside of messing up mechanics, I cant really figure out whats going wrong. If we dont make a damage check, I cant figure out if its a raidwide issue or if theres specific people who need help. I cant check if someone is taking damage from stuff they shouldnt be and putting unnecessary pressure on healers. I cant see how people are using healthstones/pots/etc. So either blizzard would have to provide a way for me to problem solve, or Im suddenly blind and purely reliant on people figuring out whats wrong by themselves and trying to improve. And in a guild scenario, cool. But pugs? No way that works man.

@Schuler97

Ай бұрын

I think players joining a somewhat simplified wow, would offset players leaving because it changed on them. There's so many prospective fresh players that click on WoW content and just see 10 UI boxes all over the screen and 5 hotbars and have no idea whats going on. The pvp especially is unreadable without an understanding of everything going on. Plunderstorm has great readability and was easily streamable, because the layman could tell what was going on within 30 seconds. I think there's a medium between plunderstorm levels of simplicity and retail wow that would drive engagement way up. addons aren't fun, we've just been conditioned to use them

@kennethwright5664

Ай бұрын

@@Schuler97 Removing features rarely results in new customers. They would lose subscribers, and quite a few of them without a doubt. There's a reason they haven't bothered with making that change.

Regarding the comments of a separate raid for higher difficulties, back in TBC/WotLK era, it was much easier to field a raid group precisely because your raid was the only way people would get to see the content. You had a mixed bag of sweaties, lore people, casuals, etc. They showed up regularly because they wanted to see the content and couldn't otherwise. As they introduced LFR and fractured raiding into difficulties, you saw a fracturing of your guild community as well. The lore/casuals didn't want to push for the 'hard' version of it and wanted to stop wasting time, meanwhile the sweaties and prog focused wanted to clear hard. This was particularly offensive in Cata when you had to choose to do the mob on either hard or normal and it was the same lockout for that boss. I remember progging Halfus on heroic and half my officership wanted to switch back to normal and stop wiping while the other half wanted to prog. It lead to unresolvable divisions in the fabric of the guild. Add to that cross realm LFD sowing salt in the recruitment fields of mid sized guilds and it was the final nail in the community coffin.

Funny thing about addons is. During the Abberud tier, i had to transfer to other pc and i didnt have time to install addons. I played whole raid on Heroic without a single addon, didnt get hit by any mehanic. Its like Max said if you notice before every mehanic boss does some yell or sound que that you can use plus the visuals. We are just spoiled thats all.

As someone who got into classic wow when it came out a few years ago as my first MMO, retail was pretty much impossible to get into. I had no idea what these dungeons are or where they are located and why I might want to do them instead of levelling, I didn't care for the lame call of duty linear style quests like the opening mission of bfa where im sneaking into stormwind and I had no idea why I needed 50 different spells for everything when I seemed to have infinite mana and everything died immediately Wow classic tbc and wrath were great for building the world, setting the scene and experiencing what feels like a coherent game, the game isn't afraid to let you feel weak and enemies feel like a threat in levelling, to the point that partying up with randoms and helping each other feels important. I understand why things took the direction they did as I've certainly started enjoying features like the dungeon finder lately (spamming dungeons with friends to level a priest for cata) but playing retail made me feel like I had showed up to the party about 10 years too late Hope this sheds some light as a zoomer why I didn't enjoy retail and dumped about 1k -1.5k hours into classic, tbc and wrath, it's definitely not just a "nostalgia thing" like some people claim it to be. : )

i think there's only 2 classes in the game that only have more than 10 rotational buttons lol

@Xroix1193

3 ай бұрын

To be fair, yea... The only one I can think right now is Brewmaster monk and that's it

@user-nz4un6se7y

3 ай бұрын

Why should that matter? Mages have almost that number of defensives. They shouldn't bind them or what? It easily gets over 40 buttons if you also count other bindable stuff for 3 modes

@Luxumbra69

3 ай бұрын

@@user-nz4un6se7y watch the episode before running your fingers lol

@user-nz4un6se7y

3 ай бұрын

@@Luxumbra69 I watched the vod a while ago. The conversation doesn't make sense if we exclude all other combat abilities, items and macros we have to press. As I said mages have 5+ defensives that they have to press during combat. Why exclude them and other things when we are talking pressing things during combat?

what max said about the buff debuff at 59:30 IS 100% trying to play classes that require you to maintain multiple buffs is a nightmare.

Sick video, love this

Toxic Casuals are a blight to any competitive game. In years of playing WoW "Toxic Casuals" have wreaked way, way more havoc than any 'eLiTisT' could have ever done.

To describe heroic raiders as casuals give Me good perspective where is this channel in comparison to (apperently) uber-casual like Me.

@Skrunkknuckle

3 ай бұрын

Me too. There are MILLIONS of people that these people featured would sneer at as casual.

@29:40 definitely not. This may be a bit anecdotal... but I grew up with what a ton of what ppl referred to "family guilds" that had upwards of 100 people playing at once. However, the Raiding portion was split up among several Sister-Guilds. Of course we had our own raiding division, but they were usually a bit lower. A few cherry-picked players combined from several guilds to assist the main "Raiding" guild. It was an entire sub eco-system within the game. Truly nothing I'll experience ever again in the same format.

For context Asmongold did not originally upload/edit his streams just random people did. Then youtube stuff changed a bit which made him reach out to a few of these rogue uploaders to edit and upload to his official channel. He has always been very hands off in regards to uploads created from stream edits.

“Asmongold is so disconnected from the playerbase” “ give them 40 man ultra mythic that’s what mythic players want”

@maxpowers4436

3 ай бұрын

Two things can be true at the same time numb nuts. Anyone who thinks 40man raids 10 buttons and zero addons of anytime will "fix" the game has severe brain dmg.

Putting a muzzle on a giant dragon? Uh... you're hitting the mob in the face with the muzzle of your gun.

I always loved 10-man raids. Everyone counts and there's less of a need for total comms dicipline so it's a lot more intimate. You actually get to know people.

theres a day9 video where he basically goes through on boarding for different versions of WoW and he looks at it from a design perspective + he's an ex high level competitive starcraft player so while he doesn't have a breadth of MMO experience he has a ton of high level experience.

3:00 This is exactly what he did. It's not even "his" editors per se. What happened was some dude was lifting content from his streams/VODs and would make videos without Asmongold's permission. Asmon basically just said he respected his hustle and let him do it on an official channel instead. I don't even think they split the profit.

@dyyylllaannn

3 ай бұрын

they absolutely split thenprofit

@RaventhortheWarrior

3 ай бұрын

​@dyyylllaannn no, he's mentioned a few times he does off the main asmon channel but not the asmon clips channel, he "doesn't need it"

I feel like one of the biggest gate to mythic for alot of teams is the 20man requirement I have heard thousands of times how much people would love 10man mythic style raiding and ive only ever heard asmon stating that 40man would be great. Yeah it was cool in classic to see that many people but that allure is dead and gone

@bakakaizoku

3 ай бұрын

Asmon is not talking about 40 man mythic raids but 40 man heroic raids, and only because then more people get a chance (less popular classes, bad players) whereas with lower numbers that is never going to happen willingly.

@Xadanar

3 ай бұрын

@@bakakaizoku heroic is already up to 30 players now isnt it? I feel like upping the number to 40 would make a negligible difference

@user-nz4un6se7y

3 ай бұрын

@@Xadanar It doesn't give you best rewards. People don't want to spend all that time for nothing when they could be doing something else. You're missing the point completely. You wouldn't take Liquid taking RWF HC seriously either.

@Xadanar

3 ай бұрын

@@user-nz4un6se7y What does anything you just said have to do with what i said? Mythic gives you the best rewards. All I am saying is that a 10man mythic mode raid would be more popular than a 40 man and would be more inclusive as there are plenty of guilds who would attempt mythic but cant sustain a 20man roster. The other guy responded saying that asmon wanted Heroic 40man not mythic in which i said that what is the point of adding 10 more players? I think you missed the point completely

@user-nz4un6se7y

3 ай бұрын

​@@Xadanar You missed the point completely. Asmon was saying those 40 man lower difficulty raids would be the pinnacle, not some throw away mode. The argument is explicitly about 40 man raids with the best rewards. No mythic or anything above that. Current HC is not even 30. It's flex. There's no point in bringing more people. That's antithetical to MMO's. With 40 man easier raids there would be less gatekeeping and people won't be so aversed by raiding as they are now. Just facts.

Dude leans in to read something on his second monitor. Max - "this guy is so crazy!" Belly laughs and slaps his thigh.

Regarding button bloat outside of defensives, i think they *could* remove some buttons to be honest by combining them with other abilities. One example would be for paladin, you have consecration on a button, you also have a ret talent to cast consecrate at the opponents location when you use blade of justice... so just remove consecration, and make it baseline for some ability to create a consecrated ground at the target location. Cuts a relatively meaningless button out and doesnt really change anything. Could just tie it to judgement and then its done for all 3 specs now. A lot of classes have something similar where this could happen. Druids have swipe and thrash, just combine them into one ability where you remove swipe and increase up front damage of thrash. One less button. Whirlwind and slam could he combined into one ability. Etc.

@1:13:31 the guy in the top left, based on his comments through this video, strikes me as the kind of player you come across who is decent at the game but vastly overvalues his skill levels. i really can't stand this attitude of "is this game really for you?" the condescension coming from that guy is wild. if i'm trying to push keys and someone in my group is using hekili and it's helping them do 10% more dps... GOOD.

@NovakWs

3 ай бұрын

from personal experience i just felt like hekili hindered me at learning anything about a class so i am mostly against hekili and just leveling a class from start instead to learn the buttons

@Dangerous1939

3 ай бұрын

He even said that he is too bad for Mythic Raid, that's why he sticks to Heroic, so i would say he knows quite well where his skill level is. I've been raidleading and recruiting a lot of people over the years and i have seen some really delusional players, that have no idea how bad they actually are (or they know and are trying to get carried), but he seems to just state he "harsh" truth that some players are just bad (or unexperienced) and should learn the game at a lower difficulty first. Nothing wrong with that. Also like NovakWs said, Hekili will not help you to learn, it is a bait. You will never have an incentive to think about your rotation and create muscle memory for it. You will also have a hard time to improvise your gameplay if something goes unplanned

@_deepcalm_

3 ай бұрын

@@Dangerous1939 @novakws fair if you think the addon kneecaps people from being the best player they can be, because i agree with that, but to say the game is "not for you" if you like to use it? i feel like that's very gatekeep-y and condescending.

I've watched Asmon for many years, and only recently unsubbed and unfollowed his channels, mainly because he definitely comes across as the out of touch boomer who hasn't played wow in years. It started annoying me even as a previous fan.

@blerp6675

3 ай бұрын

Same here. The negativity is tiring

@meanseason3056

3 ай бұрын

Kinda interesting considering he played and did the raids for both season 1 and season 2 of DragonFlight. Just cause he isn’t a top mythic raider or player in general doesn’t automatically make him someone who hasn’t played in years. Besides even if true ; as a game developer you actually want to hear someone who played the game for years and now isn’t playing as much. Their perspective matters . Carry on 🤷🏽‍♂️🤓

@gregjross852

3 ай бұрын

He played in both season 1 and 2?

@dyyylllaannn

3 ай бұрын

He played every Dragonflight raid. He even killed Fyrakk on normal on like Day 1. He also cleared every SoD raid and cleared Naxx and I think he tried Ulduar in WotLK. He grinded out retail S2 keystone master. He's playing WoW, just not at a high level at all. He is really negative about Blizzard but he's seeing all the content. I think he just hates how hard it is to actually be good at WoW

@nmc400

3 ай бұрын

Out of touch boomer? Bruh wow hasnt changed for years. Pay 15 bucks month, kill 8 bosses, finish game. Whats the nuance to the game? The game had 10mil + subs in the 2000s. They repeat the same mechanics. Dodge circle, soak circle, share buff, soak buff. They are catering to esports to save the game. Theres hardly anyone playing retail atm. And their best content idea is re releasing old content and delusional fans eat that shit up. A lot of the classes are still in the drain the whole expac.

I'm a collector, 800 mounts, 1700 pets at rare quality and level 25, Most of the toys, rare transmogs. I also used to go for all the achievements and had above 95% complete at one time. I also used to mythic raid during Pandaria. With season 4 I don't really care about doing the same retail content over and over. 3 seasons was enough so I'll spend the time doing the Pandaria event for more transmog, mounts and toys.

I used to have NeedToKnow before I knew (heh) about WeakAuras. That’s basically everything WA should really be, plus maybe raidframe effects or something. On a side note - this was great, you should guest star on some podcasts!

Dear max, I think we are still missing the point of 40 man raids. Yes all the bosses in this fictional raid would just be world bosses essentially. Asmon point is to simplify the game so any group of people of any walk of life can join up and kill bosses with half the raid dead. Would this "kill" mythic raiding for you top raiders, yes ! But that's a risk he's willing to make ! It's better for the game and for more people to kill bosses than only liquid killing bosses. That is the point he's making ! And I agree

@Sammysapphira

3 ай бұрын

This already exists as LFR. having 40 players makes no difference.

@user-ee7dy7bz2z

3 ай бұрын

@@Sammysapphira I agree with you. The 40 number could be anything. Focusing on the raid size isn't the point. The point is, make raids easier overall and less demanding on players. By proxi, you don't need add ons or wa to prog bosses and you can have more people actually raiding than sitting on the bench. It's a win for everyone ! =)

@user-nz4un6se7y

3 ай бұрын

@@Sammysapphira LFR is not real content, stop pretending as if it is

@GothicPrincessAlice

2 ай бұрын

@@user-nz4un6se7y Could you clarify what you mean by LFR being "not real content"?

@user-nz4un6se7y

2 ай бұрын

​@@GothicPrincessAlice It doesn't provide best or near best rewards. Would Liquid or Echo be excited by the idea of RWF LFR intead of Mythic? Why would casual then be excited? PvP community talks about how inflation of rating is needed because people can't get their rewards and just stop playing. People just don't participate in modes they know they don't have a chance of getting anywhere high. You don't see pvers doing skirmishes and thinking to themselves that's what they want from playing pvp.

I agree with Asmon.

I have ADHD and hekeli gives me a Great jump off point in setting up my bars and key binds when i'm coming back to the class after a break, because WOW i cannot keep that in my head for more than a single spec ever

Aotc is achieved by between 5 and 7 percent of the player base each season, in case you were wanting to know the percent. I however, do not agree that this reflects the "Top" 5-7 percent of players, because their are many reasons a person might not raid, including time constraints, or just preferring pvp, or solo content. It does not mean they would not be capable of achieving aotc if they decided to. Rather, its more of a reflection of what percent of the player base is raiding regularly.

i feel like there is a lot of parallels here in the back-in-forth between max and these guys and gal, between world first raiders being speed-runners and talking about the casuals of their game

As a suppeerrrr casual (2-3 hours/week), I love this content. Follow you anyway but always enjoy your undercovers and any interaction/commentary about casual WOW players. 100% I play just for fun, not min/max and definitely not using all of my spells lol

How are these people casuals. A casual player doesn't know what overlay or a passive aura is

Okay. I know I'm late to the party but as far as teaching new players their skills or even getting people a refresher, think of the mini scenario where you get a baseline idea of your rotation before you go to the new starter island. Imagine you could go to any class trainer and que up for a spec specific scenario that can teach you the rotation in an instances personalized environment that you can redo at your own leisure. It would allow people to learn rotations better and help teach why we use certain abilities and bring a useful function back to the class trainers at the same time.

Thank you for your POV. One thing I'd like to argue about levelling is the comparison classic vs retail. In classic, you could have 4 different levelling routes. Which would make it nice to level new characters as you would encounter new lore and new stories each of them different from one another. It makes levelling a new character a great time spend. When the story is the same all the time, it's better to make levelling much faster. I guess the best scenario would be to allow players to choose what they want to do. Not everyone wants to go through the story 5 times and not everyone wants top level character right away.