"Hurts more and bothers you less, because you made a deep deep promise in the bottom of your soul to be here and do this and you cannot turn away. " and this is exactly why we must care and continue down this path of awakening...we simply could not turn away, no matter how hard we try.

@LoveAndPeaceOccurs

5 жыл бұрын

Thank You, for restating this especially significant point.

@SPIRITTIGER14

2 жыл бұрын

"from the past until completion they will turn away no more" - new order.

Incredibly well explained. I have been following Ken recently because it seems he is the only one able to explain all these paradoxes and it makes all the sense to what I am experiencing through.

"We have to give ourselves plenty of room to feel absolute perfection in everything arising, and yet see one person starving and start crying so hard it kills us. If you're not doing both you're doing something wrong."

@LoveAndPeaceOccurs

5 жыл бұрын

When Ken says, "If you're not doing both you're doing something wrong." ... I like to imagine, he misspoke, and did not catch it. I hope he did not really mean to say we are doing something "Wrong" if we are not doing that ... yet ... that does not seem like what Ken would say (yes, I heard him say it). The expectations that can be triggered by such a statement (especially from Ken and especially in that environment can be huge). We need to remember that just because we are not doing or feeling a certain way, yet, says nothing about us except that we have not reached that point ...yet. " ... feel absolute perfection in Everything arising ... " in that statement is the correct notion of full acceptance of what is ... as is ... including our own place in the spiral of evolving.

@markc1234golf

4 жыл бұрын

... the sheer arrogance of that ...on every conceivable level

@424io

3 жыл бұрын

" how would you be that person?" I just am

Thank You Ken and those who got this here. This is an excellent video, it captures Ken giving such a heart felt and well summed up response to this significant question. I was in a Big Heart/Mind process with Ken present but Dianne Musho Hamilton, (sorry if I miss-spelled?) leading it. Anyway, Ken spoke on this topic, to some degree at that time. That was more than 14 years ago ... and I have noticed how the level of my sensitivity continues to increase. I feel such a degree of pain and sorrow at times it can feel a bit overwhelming, until I remember ... I do what I can do to help and then I Relax and remember, staying with the pain, past the point of making effort to provide relief, serves no one. The pain is there to provide motivation and that motivation can be powerful ...so act on it (and we can feed the hungry or wake up) ... but then relax and allow for the fact, as we evolve there will continue to be pain but hopefully we will hopefully encounter it with decreasingly less fear and increasingly more allowance for how it serves (think of birth pains). Remember, while being hungry for food is painful and motivating to acquire food ...to live ... THE most pain comes from feeling unloved (we may not want to live) ... how can we help others to feel Loved, equally valuable and important? Our current society is still treating most people as if they matter not, or very little, (especially of they are poor and/or have what is considered undesirable physical features). Love & Peace to All

So many years later, this is still my favorite clip of all time. I'm excited for Finding Radical Wholeness to release next month.

So that's Jamie Wheal from the Flow Genome Project asking whether humans are relevant in the unfolding of intelligence and complexity? Good show \o/

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this. Blessings

It's good to see Jamie wheal's younger days here. He's one of my favorite thinkers these days. Got helped a lot. Love y'all.

Just revisiting this video, one I have watched a few times before. Watching it now, I realize who the questioner is - Jamie Wheal! Been following his work, along with his subsequent critique's of Integral Theory.

Beautiful words from a beautiful heart, so freeing to anyone who knows the unknowable.

@LoveAndPeaceOccurs

5 жыл бұрын

Your comment is beautiful as well.

Beautiful words. Thank you.

thus has to be my favourite video of ken wilber

Thxs Ken!

Thank you. Love it.

I think I've commented before, but I want to re-iterate that this is an amazing piece of teaching. Like all of us, Ken Wilber is a mixed bag, but he definitely "has something" and it shows in this teaching. There is some egotism here, but it is honestly acknowledged and dealt with in an authentic manner. This video is worth paying close attention to.

@Mr.Monta77

11 ай бұрын

Ken Wilbur is very impressive. Maybe mostly because his listeners have not read the source materials. Everything that he presents - in a way that makes it appear these are his own original discovery - are in fact the fruits of millenia of spiritual labor. If people would bother to read some introductionary buddhist texts, Ken Wilbur becomes a lot less impressive. Believe me, because I have.

"Why should we care?" I think it's THE most significant question we keep asking.

You are for sure being clear enough in your words.

I would say, if you are not doing both, you are missing out on more, rather than you are doing something wrong.

Awareness, compassion and equanimity increase

Oh my God. So well explained!

Ken is amazing.

I stumbled upon my true Self, now I stand alone as a Giant in a world of but sleepy Children

@bethreth5151

Жыл бұрын

So poetic. Love this.

This is so good. This is exactly the food my mind needs to chew on right now.

Thank you

Can we say it like this?- In awakening, we can readily tease apart hurt from suffering, and pleasure from rapacity. When I am awake, I can hurt, but it feels like a lie to call it suffering, and I can feel pleasure, but it feels like a lie to call it lust or covetousness or greed, etc. I daresay, if I am prone to suffer, I, as a psychological entity, will tend to avoid things that I apprehend might make a hurtful impression on me. But if, through awakening, I have uprooted the tendency/habit to evolve hurtful stimuli into the intellectual structures of suffering (all suffering is mental, is it not?);... if I have uprooted the tendency to suffer, then I can actually *look* into places I would normally avoid looking into.

God... Learnt so much from one clip.

Guedingen, that's a great point, attachment to the idea that we "need to suffer" leads to an equal and opposite attachment to narcissism. Narcissism is an unhealthy need for fleeting pleasure to overcompensate for unhealthy suffering. But when you are free from suffering, you don't need narcissism, and will be far more effective and compassionate when helping others be healthy.

Also, I think that no one should get involved. Just do as you please. But remember, that freedom is not the absence of consequence but the acceptance of it.

Yes, this is exactly right.

On the point. 👌💖 I am experiencing exactly this.

danke und alles Gute für 2013!

Go Ken!

You cannot turn away

ayyy young Jamie Wheal hahaha

I thought that Ken was suggesting an increase in pain more than an increase in sufferiing. The suffering remains the same, this he refers to as Samsara, if I am not mistaken. To break it down, Ken is fundamentally suggesting that while your awareness increases your awareness of suffering also increases which causes you pain; conversely and conjointly your ability to not be bothered by that pain or by those suffering increases in balance. And I enjoyed your post.

This is really a great discussion. With regard to saying "nothing bothers me", this could be literally interpreted as "I am bothered by nothing" i.e. if I perceive nothingness I am bothered. The focus is "the nothing". A bit like when someone says "I don't care" when you can see they do really! Its like trying to deny the truth with only a mental construct and without a corresponding feeling.

@LoveAndPeaceOccurs

5 жыл бұрын

Please, Craig Richard, excuse me if what I say seems off base or not helpful to you, but it may help you see if differently, so ... (after 7 years you are likely seeing it different anyway : ) I consider the "bothers" part as meaning the lingering effect any pain can have ... so there is the pain and it is intense ... and increasingly intense as you become more evolved BUT the lingering effect of the pain can go away completely and often very quickly (at some point) so you are not "bothered" by the event that triggered the pain NOR are you bothered by the pain so much because you see the full reason for the pain. I consider the event of child birth to provide a good example, (even if it deals with the physical more than the emotional). When in child birth (I had 2 children) one feels an intense pain that one cannot ignore or make go away until the process is finished ... but One can also be fully aware of exactly what is causing the pain and thus not feel afraid or overly concerned due to the knowing more fully of what is occurring and why ... and once that child is born ... most of us anyway, tend to totally forget that pain as if it did not matter at all ... And don't forget we feel more intense good as well ... and That is well really , nice. I do feel such intense feelings (positive and negative) ... And ... I take note of it and do what I can do to address it (feed the hungry or wake from the dream) it truly does bother me less and less. Love & Peace to You and All

Human feeling(s) ought to be splashed

Its all very interesting, but a complete evasion from the actual question.

Your experience may be different, but in my experience, attachment to suffering never brought me peace. Freedom from suffering brought me peace. And when I feel peace, I help bring peace to others more easily than when I am suffering. And that's my goal in life, to help the world be more peaceful and healthy.

Deep and wide

When saying "my body", "my soul", "my life", what does "my" refer to?

I suspect this may sometimes be a more useful state of being and sometimes result in a greater reduction in suffering. Although sometimes a heartfelt expression sharing the same emotions may also help, especially with rapport building. It seems as though humans are able to hold more that one "position" at any one time possibly due to the ability of imagination? A bit like knowing that Santa doesn't exist but enjoying the excitement of playing along. That's the best analogy I could think of!!!

I think Ken might be getting at the development of one stage of emotional selfhood to another. Holonically speaking, the new, more accepting stage both transcends and embraces the old, more personal/emotional stage. The capacity for suffering doesn't just go away or become less important; it's still there, and it's integral, but there is now a new capacity for calmness. Both capacities are important, I think.

You will even feel more strongly for those around you if you can free yourself from the attachment to suffering. Suffering acts like a dirty window, making it hard to see clearly. Enlightenment (non-attachment) clears that window nicely, so you can really see the world clearly, and be more effective in acting to help others.

I may choose the words differently, ie the negativity is "sensed" rather than "felt" as Ken puts it. To "feel" it, would demonstrate there is still attachment, with ones feelings determined by external stimulus. I agree, when observing great suffering it does not have to take away ones happiness, both can exist at once, however the fact that it has been "sensed"/perceived/acknowledged into ones awareness can alter the response one makes or actions one takes, and help alleviate it if possible.

I am a lumber Jack

I think it would be a more accurate representation of the feeling to say "I'm not bothered by nothing" which would of course be considered poor use of English by most but I consider it a higher use similar to the RastafarI use of language . A double negative makes a positive mathematically. Or even better, one could say "I am happy with everything" which would batter the situation with positivity! ; )

I love ken

gOSH aren't we bored .... with life

Well, Buddha addressed this issue by recommending the Middle Way, and he said, in the last ages, this question is going to be more difficult to resolve because of all the forms of entanglement from society to the individual. So, each person has to come up with his own method of striking a balance between the two states, the high and the low. The Western Occult Science such as Alchemy, has this topic as it's main focus. How can a divine consciousness still exist in the lower worlds? While there are many different methods of reconciliation, the most important one is to not take yourself or your enlightenment or your suffering personally, by knowing that you are in all conditions and circumstances are really only dreaming or experiencing an illusion. It feels perfectly real, but it really isn't. So just as enlightenment doesn't exist suffering doesn't either. What is real and eternal than? Well, you have to figure that out yourself.

alguien sabe donde encontrar los vodeos de Ken hechos con sbtitulos en español,

Being aware of and feeling pain are different things. (in thewiseturtle's words noticing and feeling pain). Ken says that if you see someone starving, even if you 'transcended' and knows what it means to be in the Absolute, you will feel pain and not only notice that someone is suffering. I guess that the line is very tenuous, hard to put in words. Though, he speaks of this

That's sophistry and an just an excuse for more naval gazing.

"I don't know anybody has simply resolved that (richeting back and forth between 'hurts more / bothers you less'), and I don't think you're supposed to". Wilber is so attached to suffering! I wonder how he fits someone like Byron Katie into his scheme of things.... she sure aint suffering and nobody would dispute her total authenticity and enlightenment.

Yes, I guess you are right: when we're healthy and happy, we tend to "infect" other people with it. Although, the question is: getting irritated, insecure, confused, sad, upset, also lead us to suffering. And it is just as it is: part of being alive. Wilber is telling us that even the human being that transcended is also able to suffer really hard... If I am honest to myself, I can't believe none of you, since I haven't been there.

wow the guy who asked the question is Jamie wheal....

For me, today, in this very moment, being completely neutral to seeing someone starving is impossible. So I think that accepting that, just as it is, is the most honest thing to be done. Why would I want to change it? To be more "enlightened"? This seems as a lie to me...

Jaime wheal!!!

Feeling pain does not exactly has something to do with being fearful. And may also has something to do with love. "It hurts more, but it bothers you less" - that is the paradox, between the waken Buda and the waken Christ. Both of them loved. Both of them had clarity of purpose.

Danirizzi, I simply mean that I can bring more health and happiness to others when I'm feeling heath and happiness in myself, rather than pain and suffering. For example, I can find creative and fun solutions when facing a dilemma, rather than throwing a fit and making everyone miserable.

@irepJamGoonz

4 жыл бұрын

Most ppl need to find a hobby. That answers everything. That’s where balance lies

Do we live in a deterministic or random universe?

I guess I wasn't clear up there. I was talking about the difference between the known present and the unknown future. You can't change anything in the present, so it must be perfect. But you can change the future, in fact, you have no choice but to change the future since time doesn't stand still. So, no paradox necessary - everything is perfect now, and we must change the future - two different things. See what I mean?

I'll have to look into that, as I am not very informed about Buddhist thought. A part of me wants to believe that suffering is an inevitable and even beneficial part of being human... maybe there's a way to get rid of it, but I'm not entirely sure that I'd want to. Maybe that's because my perspective is flawed in some way, but I just like the idea that no matter how much I grow or develop, I'll still have that basic underlying tendency to feel strongly for those around me... know what I mean?

How can you get to this point. Im exactly right there and i feel like i cant explain this feeling to anyone. Everybody try to tell you that you need to get out of there.

@chainblayde

4 жыл бұрын

I've come to terms with this somewhat. Understand that people have to have an open heart and mind to accept any teachings. Look in your day to day for the little signs that show you can help. Read as much as you can to better put the concepts into words and phrases that people can connect with. Most importantly in my mind is the self. Craft yourself into something to be followed. Don't manipulate people, but maybe play on their desires a little bit. Make them curious about you. Make them ask themselves how they can get what you have. They will be much more likely to listen when trying to end their suffering becomes their idea instead of you trying to convince them that they need saving. No matter how selfless you are, they still see through a false lens and can never be reached directly. I have one friend I'm working on and I'm only successful to an extent because he truly knows I'm coming to him with love rather than ego and judgement, and he is humble enough to accept that fact, a true friend. Good luck!

For example, a lot of people who are suffering need a certain amount of empathy... they need to know that other people recognize and feel their pain alongside them. In those cases, being completely detached and content and saying "well, that's just the way things are" would be drastically less than helpful.

More compassionate and effective things... may I ask what you mean, thewiseturtle?

German translation available now! Deutsche Übersetzung auf der Webseite des Integralen Forums

I guess I'm not being clear enough here. Enlightenment means more compassion, less suffering. You see a starving person, and you don't feel pain, or fear, you feel only compassion, and find ways to lovingly (not fearfully) help them. No suffering necessary! Just love and clarity of purpose. Does that make sense? Enlightenment is the opposite of suffering and apathy. It's something entirely better: a healthy, happy, and effective drive to continually help others.

@williambit3

7 жыл бұрын

thewiseturtle I know this is 9 years ago, and you may have heard this already, but I just learned that the word compassion literally breaks down to 'suffering with' (com being with, and passion being suffering). But I think we agree it is a different sense of the word suffering than we typically use. it's more of a empathetic sensitivity to the other person's negative experience that brings you to loving action - to do something about it. Compassion is a kind of suffering that is 'others' oriented, where the suffering we are trying to relieve the world of is a 'i am suffering because of whatever circumstance that has plagued me (physical or mental). So compassion is a sensitivity to others suffering, "I feel your pain" but is met with a wisdom and love that doesn't leave you in that pain, but meets you there and instead of wishing it wasn't there (causing you to be at conflict with reality) there's a wholistic understanding that suffering is part of life, and so you are able to meet that suffering person truly with a healing peace and love. True compassion addresses and is sensitive to suffering, but doesn't leave it as it is, it gives a healing love and presence. When Ken is speaking of the pain that is felt, he might've meant his awareness of suffering increased so he could feel it on more of a heart level, but compassionate sensitivity to someone else's suffering is much different than the ego centered suffering we are trying to free ourselves from. I'd also add, as our awareness and connection to God enriches, deepens, and increases, there is much deeper wisdom and peace that comes along with it when facing the suffering of another, the world at large. There's just a deeper peace and understanding about why we suffer, why the world is the way it is and what we can do about. And this wisdom and peace overrides the 'other-centered' suffering we experience because of the increased compassionate sensitivity we've opened to. I don't know if that helps, (you may already know this!) sorry for the length of comment, maybe I needed to write this for myself. blessings either way :)

we know, we cant say

I think it might be more accurate to say that suffering is NOTICED more, bothers you less. In Buddhism, and in my own experience, I don't have to feel pain myself to notice suffering in others. In fact, the more I suffer, the LESS I am able to effectively help. Ken seems to be attached to suffering, believing that suffering is good. Buddhism, and I, see the opposite as true. I do far more compassionate and effective things for the world when I'm free from the side effects of suffering.

@gypsy639

6 жыл бұрын

thewiseturtle yes my friend but the path to realization would not exist were their no suffering. Was it not your own personal suffering ( whether inspired by seeing others suffer, or not) that has lead you to non attachment? This is the first noble truth. There is suffering. Though now at this point in your life you may be free from suffering or atleast a currently perceivable form of suffering, were it not for suffering, the cessation of suffering would not be possible. It seems as though you may be attached to your own personal understanding and use of words my friend.. But of course I am no more right than I am wrong, I sincerely hope you were able to receive me well and am in no way trying to offend you. Sincerely I look forward to your reply

In the Buddhist philosophy, you do indeed transcend suffering. You still feel pain (physically), but you don't suffer from it (mentally), or at least not much, since you aren't thinking to yourself "this is wrong". Thats why I say that Ken is attached to the belief that you do need to suffer, when you honestly don't. I think that's why he's kind of stuck in his theories lately.

why does ken always have a pen in his hand? I saw him pick one up in another video when a question was asked

I'm not sure it's really a paradox. While nothing needs to be changed everything will change, and the hard work is deciding how we'd like to change. Or, perhaps Ken means that the hard work is in understanding and accepting that everything is perfect...

Though, he speaks of this two waken souls... Buda and Christ. He is telling that it is possible to be a waken soul that recgonizes both "truths". If you follow a religion called Buddhism, I can understand that you believe that the "final path" is finding the way off to real suffering and achieving a point in which "nothing bothers".

I am moved to add that a funny thing happens with awakening, something that we can perhaps call a radical appreciation or profound recognition of beauty. In “partial awakening,” there can be a greatly increased ability to sense (others' pleasures, pains, struggles, reliefs, etc). I call this “partial” because it can feel like you're in a storm, being swept this way and that by winds of pleasure and pain. But this is a termporary “place,” beyond which the “eternal knowing” abides, so to speak, “with open arms.” Once we wake up to that embrace-and pardon me if I am personifying things and so adding “structure” where really no structure is appropriate-... but once we wake up to that “embrace” of the astonishing oneness of being, it's as if beauty takes centre stage (or we can call it love, equivalently), and from that point of view, (...and this is the really funny thing that happens with awakening...) from that point of view, “hurt” is no longer hurt, and everything is witnessed with a kind of *ache* of how wonderful it is.

Go to "Hall of Mirrors",

Name of the book 1:07

Intimacy without fusion

I want to meet Ken

Yes and no. In a Buddhist sense, empathizing is actually contributing to the suffering. It's a very difficult concept to grasp, especially in the highly victim-happy US. But if you're interested, check out the book "An Open Heart" by the Dalai Lama. The capacity for suffering does indeed "go away" or at least become less prominant for the enlightened.

There's a lot of chat here - I can only recommend voluntary work in old people's homes and hospiz, to name but two. It's there you'll be able to put certain things into practice and perspective. I believe there's an unhealthy naval-gazing and narcissism in much of what's being discussed here and elsewhere - no offence.

Dude, what are you talking about?

or the Father ?

Please someone tell me I'm wrong and this chap has not got lost in getting money for his books?

once3900

he sure takes a long time to get to his point...which I like the point he finally gets to but man so heady and distracting to speak the simplicity....of parallel worlds. ying and yang sun and moon. Lovely man, makes me uncomfortable tho.... must be my A.D.D.

@LoveAndPeaceOccurs

5 жыл бұрын

Ken has so much going on in his head ... it's not that simple to answer such a complex question and he does it in less than 10 minutes. A lady I know who knows him personally told me that to listen to Ken was like trying to take a sip of water from a fire hose. It is easier to read his books (somewhat) because you can go back and re-read as required.

Plugging his book. Not cool.

Hallo Antar, deine Korrekturen wären herzlich willkommen: hannahuendorf@yahoo.de Liebe Grüße Hanna

Wanting to be in a position to "help" others isn't narcissist as well? I would even dare to say that it is the worst kind of narcissism... You can surely help someone in a particular situation, but then, it is not you that helps, it is "truth", that is able to be shown through you. It happens spontaneously. But if you want to help people, if you seek that, than you are just doing ego massage...

Stop crying so hard it would kill me would be the listen of Christianity?