You can cancel the clean as long as the firmware is updated to at least 9.0 Hold the clean button down and press the off button at the same time and it will cancel the clean cycle.

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

Awesome info thanks bud!

@brnmcc01

Жыл бұрын

@@HVACRVIDEOS Nice, I never knew that trick either. Just one of the things not in the manual, or maybe buried in the fine print somewhere.

@Eledore

Жыл бұрын

Don't know about what firmware we got, but a maintenance tech once told me the following and it works on 7 out of 7 Manitowoc ice-machines i work on. Note: I don't know if this is damaging to the logic board, so add a healthy amount of sceptism and restraint to my statement. But. If you disconnect power, reconnect, and between 1 and 3 seconds disconnect again, it doesn't maintain it's lockout.

@brnmcc01

Жыл бұрын

@@Eledore Yeah that works too, and all you'll get is some E3 Power Loss error in the error log, but just go into service, and clear the error log when you're finished.

@jacobjab8782

Жыл бұрын

Needs to be indigo next. Believe some indigos can but not all

Seems like a water softener would help reduce the buildup and provide better quality ice. Even if it was just installed for the ice machines.

@brnmcc01

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely. Had to do that at one of the restaurant I work for, because not only was it a ridiculous amount of lime in the ice machine, but also their dish machine had way too much lime clogging the spray rails, and they were going thru a water heater every 3 years. $15 a month on salt for the water softener versus replacing a big water heater every 3 years saves a ton of money. It took the dish machine service guys hours to delime it too, and after the softener was installed the dish machine has no more lime buildup. The water softener is only connected to the ice machine water filter, and the hot water. There's no point in wasting softened water for the bathrooms to flush toilets with.

@thaddeusfeldhouse6174

Жыл бұрын

Yes if you are going to work on ice machines you should invest in a water test kit to check for hardness. Not a pool kit to check for chlorine.

@makinbac0n

Жыл бұрын

Where I live we have very hard water and while the water tastes good as it is it is so hard on appliances. That machine didn't last 6 months before it needed a service. Sometimes spending a little saves a lot. Definitely save on maintenance costs. Sell one with the machine.

@HappilyHomicidalHooligan

Жыл бұрын

@@brnmcc01 No point if you like replacing all the toilet flush valves and sink faucet cartridges/strainer baskets every year or two... I think placing the softener unit just after the main water meter would save FAR more money and time than what you spend on softener salt...

What I've mostly learned watching your channel is whatever HVAC equipment I might ever buy, regular preventative maintenance needs to happen and be budgeted for. A lot of the 'ermergency' calls you get could have been avoided if there were regular maintenance being done. The issues would have been fixed before something actually stopped working.

@brnmcc01

Жыл бұрын

A lot of the 'emergency' calls I get are mostly strange random weird stuff. Like contactor coil burning out in one of the 3 makeup air split system condensing units. That took out one of the control transformers, and that primary coil shorted out, causing the main blower motor contactor to chatter, and then tripping the overload in the Ansul cabinet and shutting down the makeup air system. Same location couple weeks later, a motherboard burned up and caught on fire in a 4 bank of fancy HennyPenny fryers which thankfully tripped the GFI before the fire got too big. Furnace hot surface ignitors are another one. Some last 10 years, some burn out an hour after you replaced it. Depends on how roughly people tossed the box around in transit etc. QC on new parts/equipment these days has gone to crap. Maybe because shortages, and companies are trying to rush products out the door because of long wait times, and that's understandable, and they assume any failures will be caught under warranty. That's fine, can get a new part, but who pays the travel time+labor to go do the job twice?

@lapub.

Жыл бұрын

@@brnmcc01 I'm pretty sure that some crappy counterfeit product may have sneak into official retailer. As nowaday china made everything and even for the "real" brand (like apple do for iphone, all proudly built in china) they know how to make "good" things, so they are able to make counterfeit that are really the same externally but crap inside, I see some breaker that was impossible to tell it was fake by looking at them but they feel too lightweight, and inside nothing more than a switch (no arc extinguisher of course)

Place I worked had 2 hoshizaki ice machines. Got 1 first to replace a antique old old pos machine. Then the boss got a second one. We needed a ton of ice for the deli, sold bagged ice, put ice in bread dough to keep it cool. Was a bread bakery. Watching your hoshizaki videos I know they not only was installed improperly , to small water supply line, but had the wrong supply water inlet valve. Which explains why the valves would literally blow out twice a year or more. After a few years of dumping insane money into these machines the cheap idiot got a manitowoc ice maker. It was used but worked very well. I never seen a unit make ice so fast. Had a huge compressor unit separate from the maker/bin. I worked there 27 years and NEVER ran sanitizer thru any of the ice makers. I struggled to keep them clean not knowing a thing about them. Think you would have a stroke if you seen how I cleaned them.

@lapub.

Жыл бұрын

That why you alway heard during a travel in least developed countries to ask all your drinks with no ice... now I know it's a good idea to avoid it even in USA !

@waffalobill

Жыл бұрын

@@lapub. I would come back from vacation to find shit in the ice bin. Mold all-over the plastics. The drains would be plugged up and instead of popping it off and cleaning it off, they have a lazy asshole use the hose and blow the shit back up into the ice bin. When I got back I have to clean it up, burn the ice, get the crap out of the bin. I told them if the health department ever found out they get hung.

i really enjoy going thru these types of cleanings, said no tech ever, lol....but im a big fan of the ozone lights on these machines....but the scale on this was weird for a new machine

THEY COME set from the factory for a water softener,you have to make the adjustment for hard water,a phosphate filter will help,and also the auto clean feature.thanks for sharing Chris.go to use more water on the program.

That totally make sense about the cleaner, technically is phosphorus acid and calcium is a buffering agent so it neutralizes the acid thanks for the info

This was a great service video. There is a lot going on and you captured it all. Keep it up. No one can match your service expertise.

Indigo next can actually be taken out of clean mode in the middle of the cycle it’s in the manual you hold clean and power button at the same time

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

Awesome info thanks bud!!

It might be more expensive but redundancy in these types of areas is a very critical part of it. A lot of these people aren't technical and don't think that far ahead. Then there's the issue of parts availability that's been horrendous for the last 3 years.

yes indeed, Chris, a thorough cleaning is 3-4 hours plus cleaner and sanitizer. I work (warranty work) on both Manitowoc and Hosh as well, plus some Scotsman. Owners just don't understand, but love the result! Thanks for your vlogs. I love learning from you and am envious of your knowledge. Thanks

Had a service call on an S series manitowoc today. Darn thing was spotless but the pump was all plugged with calcium and crud. It's amazing how often they get missed on cleanings

Like someone said prior, recommending a softener if it doesn't have one and a water filter. If the place has a softener check there salt level ( alot of places will have a softener and forget to keep the salt level up ). Now i know that some water system come with a softener cartiage but if its used up then it ain't doing anything. Water is 90% of the time what causes issues. Clean up the water and that unit will probably last 20 years.

@brnmcc01

Жыл бұрын

I have a 2005 Manitowoc water cooled ice machine at one of my restaurants. 1200lb a day model. Normally the air cooled ones can last up to 14 years before the compressor is worn out, and won't make very much ice.

After a harvest you should look at the back side of the ice cube. IT will tell you if the ice is hanging on to the plate too long and burning the ice. The best Ice machine cleaner I've ever used was Manitowoc Cleaner. If you see calcium in the water it's due to the hardness of the water. They should be using a softener. The ice you saw when you first walked up to it was that is ran out of water due to the leaking dump valve and pulling moisture from the air to make ice. getting a long freeze cycle. Yes, to properly clean the machine is to disassemble the machine and clean all the parts.

thanks for the vid. two stores i look after have similar machines. it stresses me every time i get called to one because I dont know enough about them. its was good to see how you broke it down to clean it and run those cycles. I will feel better about working on one next time I get a call

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I will discuss this live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

Ran into a similar type of issue.The water heater did not have a check valve and somehow the entire system to a slug of lime and calcium,soda guns,flush valves,faucets etc,it was a huge mess.We ended up adding fine strainers !

Great video. Am I the only one that gets super nervous after cleaning and sanitizing then rinsing? I worry that someone will get sick .. so I rinse again and trash the first few batches of ice....

@davidturney2975

Жыл бұрын

I do that

Super helpful information! Big thanks!

Where i work we do quarterly inspections and address any issues then we also do semi-annual inspections where we do a full thorough cleaning whether the machine needs it or not

In our 20T gas boiler, we use salt resin filter systems to demineralised the water. Sounds like they should run demineralisation filters on these too.

As the water freezes it concentrates the minerals in the circulating water. This is why it has to dump & flush after every ice making cycle. The timing on the flush can be adjusted on some models to conserve water when water quality is good. Look for a water saver setting and turn it off. If the water quality is bad (hard water) then the flush cycle needs to be extended to make certain all the minerals get flushed out of the pump resivoir. For ice makers that have no flush adjustment then the cleaning cycle will need to be run more often. Perhaps every 2 weeks. There is no rule of thumb. The management can learn to do it and if they will look for mineral build up they will know it's time. The acid in the cleaner starts going neutral as soon as it starts disolviing minerals. The more minerals it contacts the faster it becomes neutralized. It can be tested with a ph sensing litmas strip. Below a PH2 is how it starts and it goes to PH5 quickly. The nickle safe cleaner is to protect the nickle plated ice making surface from damage. The drains & plastic can use the non nickel safe cleaner which is stronger. Just make sure it is all rinced off and it never touches the nickle plated ice making surface (evaporator). If it gets pitted the ice will stick and not drop and shut the machine down. New evaporators will be needed which with labor is half the cost of a new machine. No amount of poor planning on the owners part is an emergency for me. If ice is critical then a second machine is needed. An alternative is to go to the grocery store and purchase bagged ice but a separate bin and dispenser will be needed because the bin is in use during a repair. Ice machines have gotten better over the years but the complexity has gone up. Ongoing service training from the vendor is a big help to service companies doing ice machines. Oh wait! All new equipment manufacturers need to provide service training. Things change so quickly.

@johnhaller5851

Жыл бұрын

The pitch on the drain may also need to be steeper, so calcium-laden water drains faster and doesn’t just sit in the drain and evaporate, leaving more calcium to deposit in the drain. Once the drain plugs, even with the dump and flush, it won’t really dump, and the guts of the machine will clog up next. Just from running multiple cycles will make the drain water to always be higher in calcium levels. With water restrictions in CA, I’m not sure if either more frequent dump and flush or a water softener would be compatible. They both waste water, either to dump water or to recycle the softener. One also has to offset the time the softener recycles from when the dump and flush happens, as the softener is in bypass when it recycles.

@ToIsleOfView

Жыл бұрын

@@johnhaller5851 You got that right, I have seen drains that run 10 feet away and they have all kinds of dips and low slope areas. Using a 1.5 " plastic pipe can help as long as there are no traps in it. Plastic pipes can be heated with a heat gun and bent around obstructions to make a neat and well-sloped drain. Hard water can be fatal for ice makers and coffee machines. Everpure makes a small softener that uses no salt regeneration. You just replace it when it's no longer softening. Starbucks uses them ahead of the charcoal filters. Hardwater testers can take the guesswork out of it.

dang, as bad as that is, put a water filter on it, that looks severe enough that there possibly was a recent main break/ repair on their main line that supplies to their water service. When this happens the existing buildup in the main lines gets disturbed and you get a heavy particle load that builds up and plugs up faucets, and ice machines. standard procedure during main break repairs is to flush the down stream hydrants on that line but that's not always full proof, as well as specific policy for each municipality during water conservation times. if its a contractor or a plumber doing the work, chances are they aren't going to flush the line after repairs...

Keep pumping out great videos bro😊

0:38 - Oh, dear! That's some serious buildup! It's certainly possible if the water source is from a well, you'd be surprised at the amount of calcium in well water. They need an incline de-scaler in the feed to that ice machine. Even with that installed, they may still need to adjust their cleaning schedule, depending on how "bad" the water is. I deal with hard and calcium-rich water at work, it's a real pain. Even with all the treatment, we STILL get coffee brewers growing calcium crystal structures inside and we often have to replace entire boilers in them. 8:45 - Nothing more satisfying than crystal-clear ice cubes after cleaning the ice machine! That's how you know you did it right.

I just finished cleaning a couple manitwoc indigo machines at work. Do this was nice and relevant!

Job well done, thanks for sharing

Awesome example of a great cleaning! Help me become a better tech every day!

Great Video. Thank you for sharing

Love watching your channel. I'm just a electrician but working on a remote minesite, most of the time theres no one else available so I end up dabbling in some refridge/plumbing work. This is the first year I've finally got our ice machines working consistently for the whole of last summer. We have RO water so no calcium, but I've had alot of issues from some fucker putting in hydraulic steel fittings on the potable line which would get rusted out real quick by the RO water and gunked everything up, think I've finally got rid of them all. Fixed up some drain issues too and I managed to get a water chiller installed which has helped alot in the summer. Turns out ice machines don't work too good at producing ice when the make water your feeding them is 50C/120F

Good video. Worked on a hoshizaki yesterday that had a big freeze up and that bent the plates. Not a happy customer 😂

My experience with the same style manitowoc says a good cleaning on a normal scheduled cleaning is 3-4 hours.

I'm not suprised that drain blocked up with calcium. I bet that water supply is on a high calcium water supply. I know this issue first hand. Worked for a coffee company and in the city I live in we have very hard water. The coffee machines were supplied directly from the city water. We were calling service weekly at most for calcium issues. Quite often the calcium would build up quite badly that it would A) Cause Slow Brewing B)Cause under-filling of reservoir and C) Blow the heaters. After a renovation because of the ovens that were being installed it required a water softener. Our Service calls went WAYYY down. I was reminded at how much it was saving as there was a breakdown of the softener and it had to be temporarily bypassed. During the period it increased service calls until that softener was finished. The more water that is passing through, the more quickly calcium build up.

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I will discuss this live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

Thank you for the tech tips friend!

Mother of god. Why is it so dirty everywhere? The Floor and walls are disgusting.

@christopherkidwell9817

Жыл бұрын

This is common on ice machines... calcium is not really dangerous (you can literally pick it out of drinks and no harm done) but it is off-putting when you see this.

@Cowcow211

Жыл бұрын

@@christopherkidwell9817 I think they're more talking about the general state of the kitchen/storage area.

@josephswolin2

Жыл бұрын

Pretty much how most kitchens are

@mikenonameneeded3485

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, disgusting.

Great work Chris

Good one Bud ... Thx ...

Thanks!!❤

Good job Chris.

1:19 BLOCKED DRAIN!!!!

Love the videos, I noticed that these units with Evap coils like that are level dependent or else one side of the coil will build thicker ice

That's some serious water. We have the same issue. Maintenance is the answer. We even had one customer on a quarterly cleaning. They were also a very dirty pool hall.

imo it clogged because the drain line after the dump valve is a ptrap. You can see in the video the hose exiting the unit is raised and holding the calcium in the line.

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I will discuss this live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

And another tip in the video that i am sending to someone complaining constantly to me about how i work on there machines. He keeps telling me that i should not lube the o-rings of the pray rails. I counter that it is food safe lube and it saves me damaging the rails. (He prefers to use a screw driver to wedge them out).

I know it wasn't you but ... "let's just point the drain hose at the power socket. No problems with that." 🤣

10:45 I think the word you were looking for was Potency... The Cleaner looses Potency fairly quickly during use...

Always find the fitting where hose from dump valve to pvc or copper always plugs first and causes all the issues

Enjoy your videos I been looking at your old one almost seen them all always look for your videos enjoy your intelligence I couldn't get on your live stream on Monday try this week unless I'm not welcome

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I will be going live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) to discuss exploding refrigerators, my recent videos and answer questions live come on over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

Best instructor 👌🏾🤘🏾💯thank you

@TravisDoesGames

Жыл бұрын

not an instructor. when Chris jumps off a bridge would you do it too?

Hoping you can make your merch available in Europe some day!

Ice makers , an excercise in patients!

Hello There is a saying here in Sweden that says: Fast and well don't work very well together. Thinking about cleaning out calcium You are very meticulous about wanting it to work after you have done your work From Sweden

even better than a lot of extra cleanings is start with the water. At one of my customers I had to install a water softener, the water is just really hard, and just too much lime in the machine. And even with a good filter, and a good water softener, I still have to take out the drain pan, and the ice curtain, and the spray rails and clean every year. On the other hand I have a few machines in an area with good water, and literally I took one machine apart not too long ago, it had been running for a 2-3 years, and inside was still completely white and spotless, not exaggerating, it still looked like a new machine in the drain pan and not even a spec on the ice curtain. With good water and a functioning dump valve, any leftover impurities get flushed down the drain, and they can stay remarkably clean. In this machine in this video, I would strongly encourage this customer to get a good water softener, and also get on a good PM program for the water softener too, because they also need checked once in awhile besides just dumping salt into it. Probably put the filters before the softener so junk doesn't clog up the valve head in the softener. The customer will spend a little money on salt, versus $100's worth of extra cleanings. A 4 hour cleaning is going to run roughly in the $500 range. 10 cleanings and you've already nearly bought another ice machine.

@DocNo27

Жыл бұрын

garbage in, garbage out! I didn't grow up a sportsball kid and was always amused to hear the sportscasters ranting about "it's the fundamentals". Now that I'm older I know exactly *what* they were talking about!

@TravisDoesGames

Жыл бұрын

its gotta be cleaned at least once a year mate and completely torn down

@brnmcc01

Жыл бұрын

@@TravisDoesGames Yeah the one in Spencer does, even with a good filter and a water softener. The local city water comes from the White River, so it's got a lot of minerals in it, and in the summer there's this red algae crap in the water too, since the water gets so warm. I take the spray rails out, water curtain, water trough, and clean everything, and run the parts thru the dish machine too. Every November. It doesn't get anywhere near as nasty as this video though. :)

Toward the end of the video you mentioned you go to trainings and classes, how would one go about signing up for a class or course for these? Thanks , and great videos, enjoying all the content and break downs. Thank you

Combi ovens get this calcification too, always fun cleaning it out

I Live in an area where the calcium and minerals are high in the water. I was told after a few Kidney stones. "Don't drink the water". I also learned that the water did damage a brand new humidifier. In this area it is not the equipment. It is the water. If you do not protect brand new equipment. There will be many service issues. My understanding so far. You have to treat the water before it enters any equipment.

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I will discuss this live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

19:32 - So, what are the most expensive repairs, the most common repairs, and cleaning interval of a Hoshizaki KM515MAH cuber?

pH test strip , I always kept some handy .

New indigos next ice machines have a ice purification mode to help keep ice more clear

Those filters don't take out calcium?

@MattTrevett

Жыл бұрын

They won't remove dissolved minerals of any kind.

Nice 😊

❄️👍💪🇺🇸 nice work

min 6:11 or so that peeping I heard was from the fryer of the brand Henny Penny? like they turned the fryer on from the main switch of the unit

Why not use nickel safe ice cleaner ? I was under the impression the traditional ice machine cleaner is more harmful

Chris telling the truth in a class and getting taken out like Arnold in Total Recall "what the fuck did I do now" 😂😂

ICE MACHINES TAKE 4-6 HOURS TO CLEAN PROPERLY.....NO IF'S ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT.

Maybe one of the filter elements failed and released contents into the system?

My ice maker displays making ice, but nothing is being made. It's super clean. Not sure what's the problem now

I wholly agree that to properly clean is 4 hrs if you go gangbusters. This doesn't include checking the charge. just the cleaning. The Manitowoc hand book says the majority of the problems are water related.

I wasn’t aware knickel safe could actually do harm? Which manufacture says not to?

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

Hoshizaki specifically says it in the tech manual

What the rate for cleaner solutions. Advance machine Thanks Chis

What is the mix ratio for the viper concentrate?

Disgusting, at least put a salt remover bucket at the water input to keep the scale out

Question , I’m a residential hvac tech but recently started working on ice machines . I was asked to remove a hoshizaki ice machine and found out that it has a remote condenser. I opened up the panel and couldn’t find service ports in the front . Being new, where are the service ports so I can recover the refrigerate?

Hi, thanks for your video. I love learning. However I am looking into buying a cube ice machine that can produce up to 500lbs/24hrs. In your opinion what machine / manufacturer do you think is the best ? Thanks for any suggestions.

Should the drain pipe be a 3/4 inch . I think I remember that being a question on the cr-39 contractor's test

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

No the manufacturer specifies the drain size not the state licensing board, I will discuss this live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

watch the drain just squirt out watter into the electrical outlet lmao

Ice machine auger making thumping sound on bottom auger is that normal?

How much is a clean ice machine?

Hi my name is Moses. I've been following your channel on KZread and have been watching most of your videos. Since this video is on ice machine I have a question to ask you.Can you use a washing machine water valve in place of a ice machine water valve?

This makes me not want to get ice from restaurants!!! 🤮

Possible water filter failure? You said it was about time to swap, perhaps failed early? How did they look?

@glennmcgurrin8397

Жыл бұрын

Maybe need to change changing schedule, schedule is usually based on assumptions for both incoming quality and amount of flow (for almost every type of filter be it air water etc.). If their water is very hard or they make more ice or they use higher dump amounts to help compensate for hard water it may use up the filter more quickly.

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I will discuss this live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

Is there a filter that will solve the calcium and magnesium buildup or is a water softener the only solution?

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I will discuss this live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

no substitute for a resin based ion exchange water softener. Nothing else removes calcium effectively, if at all.

I did not see an air gap in that drain line .

Brema are good machines, no circuitboards to bugger up

10:29 💀

Don't forget to hit that like button

They need a pre filte for calcium would solve most of those problems.

❤

Water softener issues

Looking like those water filters should be replaced a little bit more frequently apparently

@brnmcc01

Жыл бұрын

I like the 3M ones with the scale inhibitor cartridges like the HF-65S. Very simple to change and don't need to unscrew a filter housing. Hoshizaki also has a good filter system, but the filter cartridges are quite expensive.

For sure commercial made the best technician in the world! Everything is easy can be done in few minutes and even a pipe can become smart with an extra option (don't laughs, the new smart pipe AI powered can detect a leak and send you a notification) Then you have to explain to the final customer that's all the blathering was true but only if it the ice maker is feeder with deionized water in a cleanrooms that meet ISO 14644-1 Class 5 (also required for µchip manufacturing). About extra smart thing I love the (home) fridge that send you a notification on your phone if the door is open... if people that build this that was smart, instead of putting internet connexion manage servers they would put a motor and allow the fridge to close himself. Warranty are also just hilarious, they warrant the motor for 20 years... but of course not the labour to change it, a "free warranty" for them

Everyone on the comments always has to put in their 2 cents😂

@charleyhoward4594

Жыл бұрын

in all these videos

prime candidate for a scale stick it seems (or 2) that's a lot of buildup for 6 months

@HVACRVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I will discuss this live on KZread this evening 4/10/23 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out kzread.infoE99ILzVUm6I

The real question is where did all the calcium suddenly come from right it's not even the that old looks like they need to put a filter on the water line to this machine might be a good idea might want to give him that idea

I dont work in hvac let alone work but i love your video's.

Another scoop of protein. 😁

I've had that calcium before too.. someone cleaned it with a different chemical to make that happen.. had to replace the hoses and clean it multiple times..🙄. Very frustrating

That is an absolutely awful amount of calcium!!!

Is that McDonald's store? Judging by the tiles on the floor...