I was blessed to grow up in an "eastern rite" orthodox parish with a priest who was very sympathetic towards the Christian West. He incorporated practices like: chanting the O Antiphons during Advent; reading the traditional proclamation of the Birth of Christ from the Roman Martyrology on Christmas Eve; singing many beloved carols of Western origin around Christmas; teaching us about many pre-schism Western saints; and including information about Western liturgical practices at different points during the liturgical year so we could compare and contrast with what we did. Wherever there was common ground to be found, he brought it to light. I dont remember him ever denigrating the West. I'm very thankful to have been formed by someone humble enough to call out the goodness in what he saw, no matter its origin. As a last thought I'd like to say that this approach is truly Orthodox. As St. Paisios taught, we should be like bees who seek out nectar, and not like flies who are attracted to trash. Austin, thanks for another great interview!

It would be fun to bring an Eastern Catholic priest and a Western Orthodox priest to talk to each other

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

Great idea!

@serbskijhristijanin

2 жыл бұрын

Western Orthodoxy works differently than Eastern Catholicism. EC have their own dogmas, contrary to the Latin church. Western Orthodoxy retains the same dogmas as their mother Church jurisdiction.

@themorbidmole9247

2 жыл бұрын

@@serbskijhristijanin As a Byzantine Catholic seminarian I can tell you that is not true.

@brotheraugustine

2 жыл бұрын

@@themorbidmole9247 Is it not true that “Byzantine Rite Catholics” often venerate St. Gregory Palamas, a man anathematized as a “heretic” by the Roman Rite crowd?

@themorbidmole9247

2 жыл бұрын

@@brotheraugustine Palamas was not anathematized by the Roman church. Barlaam's criticism of him hardly qualifies as an official anathema from the Romans. Palamas is a regional Saint to our church. He hasn't been canonized officially by the Roman church but, just like the various orthodox churches, there are numerous saints exclusive to local churches. I'm not trying to argue, just telling the guy above that we are doctrinally Catholic, not Orthodox and we don't pretend to be otherwise.

This was such a wonderful interview. Father Patrick has a very humble and loving approach, while still holding to his convictions. He touched on a lot of questions I've had, and mentioned multiple things that I myself have noticed but not been able to make sense of in the Western versus Eastern dichotomy, as a new convert to Orthodoxy. Also, blessed feast day to Father Patrick!

I can't wait for this!!! I've attended Fr. Patrick's parish for a good number of months. It's amazing. It helped me learn and accept the Western Rite completely.

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

Hope you enjoy it!

@DouglasHorch

2 жыл бұрын

love it!

@nyagolnyagolov7130

2 жыл бұрын

Being a member of a club cannot save you, nor any fake rite or tradition!

@no_more_anymore

2 жыл бұрын

@@nyagolnyagolov7130 Thank God we're not part of any club but of His Church.

@nyagolnyagolov7130

2 жыл бұрын

@@no_more_anymore You are a part of the Apostate church - the club of the duped and you have nothing to thank GOD Almighty - (Yehovah Tzveot) for that! The sooner you realize it, the sooner you will turn to the Saviour - Lord Jesus Christ, not to fake manmade rites and traditions accumulated since the 4th century! Even the bible you are reading if you do so, is falsely translated on purpose, to justify fake doctrines of men, not GOD's ones!

Fr. Patrick, may God bless you through the prayers if St. Patrick. Happy St. Patrick day! Many years!!!☘️🕊️

Thanks for another interesting video, Austin. I've recently been reading up on Western Rite Orthodoxy after a Western Rite Orthodox parish was founded in my area, which really piqued my interest. As always your video showed up exactly when I needed it. You're a great soldier for Christ, helping us Christians to better understand one another. Much love to you and all our Christian brothers and sisters out there. God bless.

I am Roman Catholic and I really appreciated Father's critique of "Lack of fasting and burning the dead." I have terminal cancer and my wife wants me cremated, but I follow the old Catholic belief in burial. Thanks again for a wonderful interview, Austin, and God bless both you and Father Patrick.

@jdsmith2k7

2 жыл бұрын

Praying for your healing 🙏

@baoduong2203

2 жыл бұрын

Will be praying for you!

@masterchief8179

2 жыл бұрын

As a Catholic, I must say Eastern Orthodoxy’s perception of cremation is missing some core knowledge of Catholic theology so as to get into the honest dialogue. It is NOT implied in the theology of the body and/or the theology of the ressurrection that the deceased body has to be in perfect/undamaged state so as for the faithful to attain resurrection with a glorious perfected body, but the very action of the omnipotent God, in the power of the Holy Spirit, will bring those who resurrect from the dead to glory in the outcome of their bodies despite any of the current limitations. Glorified bodies have some characteristics like impassibilty, subtlety, agility and clarity. I’m not really expanding those explanations, but if a man does not have an arm and a leg he won't resurrect with those defects, either congenital or acquired through life, but as in the perfect “vessel for the Spirit” under the compatible means that assured the flourishment of his soul, of course, but only with a glorious form that will express the incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ in the glorified Lord. The sempiternal prohibition of the Church concerning deceased bodies refers to 1) desecration, 2) profanation, 3) defilement and 4) violation of the human body due to its intrinsic inalienable value. The Ancient Greek perception of burials - hugely influential into Byzantine Christian culture - is represented by the pagan prohibition to leave dead bodies behind in war fields without a funeral as an offense to the gods of the ‘Polis’ like what we see in the very essential discussion inside “Antigone” (Sophocles play). So it’s not that straightforward to simply say bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and nothing more. A document issued by the Catholic Church in 1963 said cremation wasn't opposed “per se” to Christian religion if it doesn’t come to be made or justified for reasons contrary to Christian doctrine, with further specifications. That’s the core point. So under necessity of times (gigantic mass murders, pandemic, World Wars, deaths by forced starvation, poverty and misery), which means under particular conditions (many of them couldn’t clearly be thought of before), burials received formal canonical treatment and cremations were thought to be not ‘a priori’ an act of desecration/profanation, that means, not forbidden in themselves. Notice cremation was not stimulated but discouraged; it was not made an option available but it was said to be admissible under some circunstancial STRICT necessities. And it wasn’t made morally equivalent to burials; even in the hypothesis admissible, cremations were determined to happen according to sacred funerals norms as said by the Catholic Church. In some Oriental religions death is seen as a transition from one form of matter to another, which is an absurd for a Christian to engage in. So it is of course forbidden to engage in on those because a pantheist cremation _”was chosen for reasons contrary to Christian doctrine”_ (Code of Canon Law, can. 1176 § 3; cf. CCEC, can. 876 § 3). And the Church is the guardian of the Christian doctrines and the Church is the one that can permit or forbid disciplines in order to maintain the very integrity and integrality of those doctrines. That’s clear for a more educated Catholic. But the Church always emphatically recommends the burial of the dead as proper means to deal with the deceased and she STILL DOES, which doesn’t invalidate the fact that some people simply can’t even afford to own - without compromising their means of subsistence - burial places for them or their family, which would maybe imply the need to bury or be buried in public desecrated spaces if they do not want to be treated as indigent and many of these places simply demand cremation due to the lack of geographical space or due to lack of sanitary means in many cities and regions in the globe. Probably most of us won’t have any idea about what extreme poverty means. I sense some of us - well fed and created with all material luxuries one can get - do not really understand what the world is and how few the ones who could have an authentic Christian burial are. The point is not so much the burial (by the way, the Egyptian Pharaoh was a pagan monarch and had a careful/solemn burial) but the Christian funeral. The Catholic Church is UNIVERSAL and the Church extends from one extreme to the other of the globe and she comforts the poorest of the poorest in areas in which people would need to succeed a lot in order to be even named “poor”. The Catholic Church is never provincial, either geographically or culturally. More objectively speaking: the Church authorized cremation NOT under the mere preference of families but under some conditions (any violation of this would be equivalent to unchristian treatment of the deceased) which are the following: 1) it would be asserted that _“cremation, in and of itself, objectively negates neither the Christian doctrine of the soul’s immortality nor that of the resurrection of the body”,_ and it only would be admissible if by sanitary, economic or social considerations (Cf. Holy Office, Instruction Piam et costantem, 5 July 1963: AAS 56 [1964] 822); 2) it must never violate the explicitly stated or the reasonably inferable wishes of the deceased faithful (idem); 3) and it is never authorized to happen in any appearance of pantheism or nihilism or _“to scatter the ashes of the faithful departed in the air, on land, at sea or in some other way, nor may they be preserved in mementos, pieces of jewelry or other objects”,_ and if that is implied, _"the Christian funeral must be denied to that person according to the norms of the law"_ (Code of Canon Law, can. 1184; CCEO, can.876, § 3). Please check the Instruction “Ad resurgendum cum Christo” regarding the burial of the deceased and the conservation of the ashes in the exceptional case of cremation. In ANY cases, _“the ashes of the faithful must be laid to rest in a SACRED place, that is, in a cemetery or, in certain cases, in a church or an area which has been set aside for this purpose, and so dedicated by the competent ecclesial authority”_ (Ad resurgendum cum Christo, CDF, 2016). And if someone has the means to be buried witout cremation, he is morally required to do so. The Catholic Church doesn’t make rules that fit how wordly desires are seen in the latest fashion. That’s just a terrible ideological prejudice that those in schism with us got used to have in their pockets. I’m not saying Eastern Orthodoxy’s mistreatment of Catholic discipline of burials is resultant of bad faith, but it seems to miss the astonishing complexity of the themes discussed, definitely. I’m praying for your healing, brother! 🙏 May God give you the honor to always be with His presence until the definitive encounter yet reestablish your health in the flesh as for now. God bless you and your family!

@masterchief8179

2 жыл бұрын

@a Wow, the Catholic Church must surrender!

@christianlacroix5430

2 жыл бұрын

@@masterchief8179 Too long, didn't read + you're a heretic. The part with "the ashes of the faithful must be laid to resr in a SACRED place...." defeats all your other arguments.

What a phenomenally knowledgeable and open priest! I’ve now gone to “western rite” twice and absolutely loved it.

@GospelSimplicity

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

This might be long-winded, but I felt compelled to share and so I apologize in advance. There was a lot I sympathized with in Fr. Patrick's story, and stuff him and I have talked about myself as I have met him in person like many others and attended his parish several times myself. Ultimately my family and I decided it would be best for us in ROCOR (we ourselves are converts from Catholicism, first Roman to Eastern Catholic, and now to Holy Orthodoxy), but like Fr. Patrick, and others, I still have a heart for the Western Tradition, at least Pre-Schism, and agree that there is definitely an unhealthy level of Anti-Westernism in, particularly, the American variety, of Orthodoxy. With that said, however, I also think there are very really problems in modes of thinking, theology, and praxis that cannot be ignored and are problematic. I think Orthodox can validly critique what we might call "errors of the West" without characterizing it as all "unmitigated darkness". One of the biggest things that aided my conversion to Orthodoxy was, quite simply, the repeated recognition of Catholic scholars like Fr. Yves Congar, or Edward Scienskei (who became Orthodox), or even the Vatican's own theological commissions (like the Chieti Document or the Clarification on the Filioque) that basically conceded (implicitly, if not explicitly in some cases) to Orthodox positions. Fr. Yves Congar in his "900-Years After the Schism" himself notes that a 4th century Western Christian would be at home in an 11th century Western church, but that an 11th century Western Christian would not feel the same in a 12th century church. The fact of the matter is that we can deliberately, precisely, and definitively point to theological and psychological changes in the West, particularly post-schism, that changed the trajectory of that particular tradition. If Fr. Congar is just talking 4th cent to 12th cent, I think you can just as well apply it from 12th or 13th cent to 15th or 16th cent and from there to the Post-Vatican 1 and Post-Vatican 2 Roman church. I sincerely believe at this point that St. Augustine (or St. Gregory the Great or St. Bede the Venerable) would not recognize the 12th cent church and subsequently Aquinas with the Baroque church and the people of that era with the modern Roman Church, and if that is the case we should all be seriously ask ourselves "Why?" and what that means for the West and the Roman Church. If you look at Western churches in France during the Carolingian period or Germany in the Ottonian period, or in Anglo-Saxon England before the Norman conquest it is scarily similar to the art, architecture, and sacramental reality, and vision, of the East. Churches were covered in painted iconography and mosaic and usually following canonical conventions in the East, even a lot of the hagiography sounds similar. Richard Rohlin and Jonathan Pageau in their Universal History series have talked about how almost identical Irish Hagiography is in literary style and tropes to Byzantine hagiography. However, this begins to change, for example, when Charlemagne calls the Council of Frankfurt in the 8th century that actually condemns the 7th Ecumenical Council and Iconography. It's just a hop and a skip from that to the rise of Gothic architecture in the 11th century that represents a very different cosmological vision of the Church and is a break from the previous generations. As Fr. Patrick rightly pointed out you did not have this happen in Italy (which I have been to and can attest to myself) and that is likely because the Italian church (and Rome) never accepted or promulgated the Frankfurt Council and had much more congenial contact with the East, particularly because of the heavy Byzantine influence in Southern Italy (obviously that changed in the following centuries). Also, something that always irks me is the statue conversation. I don't think Orthodox or Catholics really understand this point well. 3D art is not the issue as such. Like Fr. Patrick noted there are religious statues in Russia (I've seen quite a few when I was there) and in Byzantium, among other 3Dish forms of art. However, there is a massively vast different between the sort of static and simply statuary of Late Antiquity/Early/High Middle Ages, and the grotesque, hyper-idealized, eroticized statues of the Renaissance/Baroque periods and later, and that is what Orthodox really have the problem with and for notable reasons. However, it's not as if everything changed overnight or even within a year. I've heard quite a few Orthodox Priests and bishops talk about Medieval theologians, such as Bernard of Clairvaux, being very Orthodox sounding and thinking, but by the time you get to people like Francis Bacon and William of Ockham, both Catholic theologians and noted Franciscan friars, Catholics and Orthodox both seem agree there's a problem. Just some thoughts I wanted to share. Often it seems like one or the other side wants to ignore the issues as all polemics, and the other wants to make the issues so central and large it discredits anything else that might be good and true tied to that particular tradition. Like with most things, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle. God Bless you and all your viewers.

@eldermillennial8330

2 жыл бұрын

I think the cult of “progress” within Rome over the centuries has had the subtle Modus Opporandi to have been making all these strategic little (and contradictory) compromises whenever faced with real resistance, such as the unique late medieval allowance of the Dutch Archdiocese of Ultrich to retain their own independent Synods, to allowing Uniates to retain Orthodox ideas that blatantly contradict several Roman Dogmas, and many more. Genuine Orthodox will hit a wall as disagreements with growing error reach an impasse that we will not cross through or over, but in similar circumstances, Rome sometimes digs instead a tunnel under the wall to get to the other side and claims that that “doesn’t count” as crossing the wall! All that’s really changed since Vatican 2 is now they are more blatant about their intentions and are less hypocritical about being obvious modernists. The Progressives have avoided major Traditionalist backlashes by carefully hoodwinking them, not always successfully, but enough to have radically changed Rome over 1000 years by 1960, which has again changed as much since 1970 to now as they had in the previous 1,000.

@dexteradomini7103

2 жыл бұрын

Fr. Yves Congar was an evil Modernist, he absolutely *hated* true Catholicism, and was one of the top heretics in charge at the Vatican II Robber Council. Yves Congar and his cronies began a Neo-Modernist movement that despised the Neo-Scholasticism which had served the Church so well. Their movement was called the "Nouvelle Theologie" (French for "New Theology"), it liked to call itself ressourcement - (“return to the sources"), because they claimed they were "returning to patristic thought” but in reality these Modernist theologians, Congar including, deviated from the long-standing theological tradition of the Catholic Church, thus creating a "new theology" all their own, and a disguised resurgence of Modernism- hence, they were censured under the reign of Pius XII (the last “true” pope) and in 1950, he responded with his great encyclical Humani Generis which condemned many of their errors, such as rejecting the traditional dogmatic formulations that emerged throughout Church history as a result of scholastic theology, re-interpreting Catholic dogma in a way that was inconsistent with tradition, falling into the error of dogmatic relativism and criticizing biblical texts in a way that deviated from the principles of biblical hermeneutics outlined by his predecessors (namely: Pope Leo XIII). Those anti-Vatican II Traditional Catholics who out of desperation, seek a panacea in Russian/Eastern “Orthodoxy”, should be aware that Russian Orthodox “ressourciement” is the seedbed of Vatican II “Nouvelle théologie” and that both are violent, Bolshevik attacks on St. Thomas Aquinas: www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/svsvoices/on_the_mystical_theology_of_the_eastern_church. This is the self-described modernist founder of St Sergius Orthodox Theological Institute in Paris which was the epicenter from which Orthodox theologians like Florovsky, Meyendorff, Lossky, Schmemann spread Russian “Orthodox”neo-Palamism in the West, collaborated with the Modernist infiltrators in the Catholic Church, and participated in the schema of Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. Bulgakov says, “The imprint of our time is stamped vividly on our theological creativity. Since new is the synonym of creativity, we are scolded for our modernism by people...But our modernism is and desires to be a living tradition...”

@dexteradomini7103

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge Vatican II clearly taught heresy and contradicts previous Catholic, teaching so is clearly not a valid council and not from God, and therefore the authority which gave us Vatican II is not in fact the legitimate Catholic authority at all; the “Popes” which gave us Vatican II are not true Popes, nor are their successors. It has nothing to do with Sobornost “Reception Theory” which is a completely novel theory and very heretical.

@dexteradomini7103

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge Will do. 🙏🏻

Western Rite is VALID! I love my western rite ORTHODOX brothers. St. John Maximovich fully blessed them, so I love them. God be with you.

@michaelmchugh3987

2 жыл бұрын

Can you tell me what St. John Maximovitch said or did for the statement “he fully blessed them”.

@distracted900

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelmchugh3987 He consecrated Jean-Nectaire of Saint-Denis as the Hierarch of the Orthodox Church of France and supported their endeavor for an autocephalous church in France that used Western liturgics. The OCF had and still has many problems but Saint John fully supported the Western Rite in concept

@mynameisjeff6516

2 жыл бұрын

@@distracted900 And then those WR churches in France all apostatized and left the Church, just as St John warned them before leaving France. What should we make of that?

@distracted900

Жыл бұрын

@@mynameisjeff6516 I don't think you're aware of the history of the OCF, because if you did you wouldn't say they left the church. They were kicked out of the Church of Romania with no warning

@distracted900

Жыл бұрын

@@mynameisjeff6516 They didn't leave the church. They were under the Church of Romania for over 20 years, until the Patriarch of Romania kicked them out due to political disputes with the EP. They were never accused of wrongdoing

Hey, you should get Brother Augustine on. He's not clergy but he is an Orthodox Benedictine Oblate, and his journey from Judaism through Freemasonry and occultism then Protestantism and finally to Orthodoxy. He also has experience attending both Eastern Rite and Western Rite parishes. His book 'The Masons and their Lies' is amazing too.

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

That sounds like a fascinating conversion story

The interview is simply breathtaking. Austin, thank you so much for it!

@spartanastas5560

7 ай бұрын

Why not just go to the Eastern Orthodox Church? Then you'll have the full benefit of the Original Church of Christ.

Absolutely wonderful interview. Thank you Fr. Patrick.

Yes!! So excited for this!

Very interesting! I'm Eastern orthodox from Greece and I had no idea that there were Eastern orthodox churches that have the western rite. Nice to know that westerners that want to follow the orthodox dogma but find the eastern orthodox rite a bit ''exotic'' no have an alternative choice.

@spartanastas5560

7 ай бұрын

It's a Catholic Church still... almost like a trans church... it's pretending to be Orthodox even though it's catholic. There is, nor is there a need for a replacement for the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is the Original Church of Christ.

@roytofilovski9530

6 ай бұрын

​@@spartanastas5560it's not a Catholic church as it is formally part of a canonical Orthodox church.

@spartanastas5560

6 ай бұрын

@@roytofilovski9530 No, it isn't. It's still Catholic. The Catholic Church can not be a part of the Orthodox Church unless it becomes an Orthodox Church... and it's not.

@roytofilovski9530

6 ай бұрын

@@spartanastas5560 It's under the jurisdiction of a canonical Orthodox Bishop of a canonical Orthodox Church. It follows the basic Orthodox theology. That makes it Orthodox. The form of the liturgy itself is not relevant so long as it is approved by their Bishop.

Thank you very much for interviewing Fr. Patrick and about Western Rite Orthodoxy in general. God bless. 🙏🙏

Loved this, would love to see him on again.

This was a very interesting interview . Great guest

Thanks for doing this! Now I want to hear part 2, answering the question of how he came to Western Rite Orthodoxy from the Eastern Rite...

@DamaskinosofAZ

2 жыл бұрын

there already is a lovely documentary on the matter kzread.info/dash/bejne/p5mJj7OjoJDZgrg.html

@distracted900

2 жыл бұрын

He talks about it briefly in the documentary "The Orthodox West"

Thank you for your video! It helped me a lot!

You are doing an amazing job of finding extremely interesting and insightful people to talk to. Thank you so much!

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

My pleasure!

Awesome interview. I love Father Patrick.

When I first came home to the Orthodox Church, I started out at a western rite parish. I now attend an eastern rite parish - and definitely prefer it - but the western rite will always hold a special place in my heart. Very excited to see this! Thank you for bringing awareness to a very misunderstood and relatively unknown yet vital aspect of the Orthodox faith 😄☦️🙏🏻

@DouglasHorch

2 жыл бұрын

Awesome! Ive gone the other way and find the western rite the place to be for my family.

@dubblwide

2 жыл бұрын

Why do you prefer eastern rite?

@autisticheadscarf

2 жыл бұрын

@@dubblwide the liturgy, the services, Byzantine chant, Byzantine iconography, etc. just prefer it all in its entirety and click with it 🤗

@Yallquietendown

2 жыл бұрын

@@autisticheadscarf I ❤️ Byzantine chant. To me it was very hard to listen to at first but it grew on me and I LOVE it now. I love the OCA people I’m glad I had the experience there too. I just can’t express how much I LOVE the Greek Orthodox Church!

@diegobarragan4904

2 жыл бұрын

@@autisticheadscarf how long ago did you convert? :)

I started attending the tridentine mass but im catholic. It is definitively a blessing and I had quite the spiritual experience when receiving communion. Its completely different than the novus ordo catholic mass. I felt shook the entire sunday and ive had a deep repenting of my sins. I had to go and confess again this week as things come up to me. But im so happy. Orthodox or Catholic thank God the tridentine Mass is being revived and divulged

I wish I could like this a few more times.

Thank you both. Very informative

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

I had forgotten where I saw this a bit ago, had been listening to it while painting my front door that day. Finally came across a new video of yours and realized it must have been you... yup. This has got to be one of the best interviews I have heard in years. I'm fascinated to hear an Orthodox take on Western Christianity, as I've long believed the anti-Augustinian and western in general spin in the Orthodox world was one of its biggest flaws, even as the Catholic Church has actively tried to better acknowledge Eastern traditions and rites. It was a perceived and observed bias that effectively halted my own personal dabbling in the EO worlds some time ago. 1054 may be an official mark in the wall. But the issues started long before and really continue to this day. Very, very happy to see at least one leader in the Orthodox Church acknowledge the flaws in the aspects of it that aren't the least bit based on true theological differences. Sadly, I don't see much to suggests these views are widespread. It seems clear to me that many in the EO world don't have a counterpart ideology to Vatican II's "breathe with two lungs" metaphor.

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words!

Its so wild hearing BEALETON Virginia on youtube. I went to high school a mile from this church

@tonyrandall8703

2 жыл бұрын

Me too

@maxonmendel5757

2 жыл бұрын

@@tonyrandall8703 what year? I graduated 2016

@tonyrandall8703

2 жыл бұрын

@@maxonmendel5757 oh boy. 13 years before you. We never crossed paths but still cool

Thanks so much for doing this interview! I struggled with this concept as I am Jamaican and Dutch culturally. So neither of my ethnic roots are very 'eastern'. I also grew up evangelical so every part of my spiritual background felt a little attacked while learning about Orthodoxy. Eventually, through reading St. Herman of Alaska's story my heart was softened towards the Orthodox church (Holy Spirit orchestrated all of that). Listening to this interview has enlightened my journey even more! Especially as I come closer to my baptismal date :)

@auset828

2 жыл бұрын

God bless you! ☦

Good job Austin! 👍

This seems super interesting at first I thought it was a typo very interesting brother

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

That's how I felt when I first heard about it!

If theres something of appreciate is the you use bookmarks so we can skip the ads. Real chad move.

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

I try

I appreciate the critique of his own people. Reminds me of Seraphim Rose and his book on Augustine.

Hey Austin, im kinda new to your channel, it would be super interesting if you keep making live debates such as the last, about eucharist througj baptist and catholic lens. Bring more people from different denominations to debate on one common christian doctrine, it was awesome.

Fantastic!!

I would love to hear you talk to a priest or Bishop from the Anglican Rite of the Catholic Church--Officially referred to as the Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter. I believe that there are 23 parishes in America. I was raised in the Protestant Episcopal church but have been a Roman Catholic since 1978---and I am seriously considering retiring to an area that has an Ordinariate parish. The words of the liturgy are largely based in the English of the mid 16th century--moving and beautiful!

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

That would be great fun for me

@King-uj1lh

2 жыл бұрын

I second this Ordinariate is very beautiful, reverent and traditional while being in English. Austin if you can attend mass or morning and evening prayer.

@eldermillennial8330

2 жыл бұрын

@@GospelSimplicity And I would recommend you try to get in contact with Archpriest Emeritus Lester Bundy of Saint Columba Orthodox, Lafayette Colorado. He represents the Orthodox equivalent of the Ordinate that Jean Dotan is talking about, Anglican Rite Orthodoxy, a subset of Western Orthodoxy a bit different from Father Cardine’s direct and plain translation of Saint Gregory The Great’s Divine Liturgy. Instead, Saint Tikhon of Moscow rehabilitated Cranmer’s Anglican mass (itself a simplified version of the venerable Divine Liturgy of Saint Osmond, the “Salisbury/Sarum Rite”), for use by former Anglican priests converted to Orthodoxy who were unable to learn Osmond’s Mass in its original form, for whatever reason. This rehabilitation was much easier to learn. Father Bundy is an expert on the Anglican Rite and a fantastic Iconographer in the Anglo-Saxon/Celtic style of Britannia. Here’s most of a lecture series he did two years ago (I missed part 2) kzread.info/dash/bejne/gYGsm5qNlbexo7g.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/gJWkr9CNYrXaZc4.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/n6WZpNOplMyygs4.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/eXVhtJqtYMjOeNI.html

Thanks for the video. I hope that you can bring in Fr. Thomas Loya, a Byzantine Catholic priest who talks about the “genus” of the West and the East. It is within the genus of the East, to draw people in her liturgy. While it is in the genus of the West to be more sharp when the Church needs to clarify things, etc.

53:49 I would to want a second video so good as this about these topics!!!

@GospelSimplicity

5 ай бұрын

I'm hoping to visit his church sometime, so maybe we could dive into it then

Austin, thank you for doing this interview. I do not agree with many statements made in this interview but I am happy to hear them nonetheless. The Western Rite Orthodoxy in theory makes much sense and I believe it was started with the best of intentions BUT in practice it has led to small congregations that convert to Orthodoxy without having to actually accept Orthodoxy. If you can walk from one parish and go into another and nothing changes except the name you commemorate, is that a true inner conversion? I would find it hard to say so. Certainly that is a broad stroke on my part but it is my anecdotal experience as a priest but the fact that many of the Western Rite believers have little or nothing to do with the greater Orthodoxy is proof of this. Further, the Orthodox Church has developed hymnography, menology, spirituality, and an ethos that goes well beyond the liturgy of St. Gregory the Great. Accepting that inheritance has little to do with becoming Russian Or Greek... it is just Orthodox.

@tonyrandall8703

2 жыл бұрын

I’d have to say this is not the experience I’ve had becoming Orthodox in a Western Rite parish. I suppose it happens somewhere. We go to Eastern Rite parishes when on vacation. We have many many Eastern Orthodox books in our parish. We really look to all this for the fullness of the faith.

@Leo-uq6jp

2 жыл бұрын

Father bless, I understand where you are coming from but it's hard to agree when my own personal experience has been opposite of what you described. What I have seen however, is Eastern Rite brothers and sisters in Christ judge those in the Western Rite for having a deficient Orthodoxy just because they have looked at it from the surface and completely diminish the fruits of the Western patrimony in our own lives. It seems like it would be hard to arrive at a certain level of communion and comradery when a lot of the times those on the Western Rite are, from the ourset, treated as second class citizens just because of their liturgical expression of Orthodoxy. I think there is always a conflation between the idea that to be Orthodox, you must have the eastern ethos and therefore anything that deviates from that cannot be Orthodox, but that is clearly not true or else we would have to concede saints such as St. Ambrose, St. Patrick, St. Jerome and Pope St. Leo and Gregory, St. Augustine as less than Orthodox, and I am not ready to do that. I believe that to doubt the genuine Orthodoxy of those in the Western Rite and assume they are disguised Roman Catholics and assume there was never a conversion to begin with every time the topic is brought up does a diservice to the church as a whole, and that is exactly why I don't go around saying that Cradle Greek parishes are not genuinely Orthodox just because I have personally experienced that they tend to have a higher degree of luke-warm Christians.

@tonyrandall8703

2 жыл бұрын

@@Leo-uq6jp couldn’t have said it better

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

Fr. Michael, it's my pleasure! I must say, the second sentence of this comment is exemplary of the kind of interaction I hope to see with the content on this channel.

@tonguemybumb

2 жыл бұрын

practices after the great schism are very problematic.

Incredible interview. I would like to have a priest/spiritual father like him!

Austin, I was checking out your merch, nice selection. I have heard the saying, a Theologian is one who prays; one who prays is a Theologian. I wondered if you would consider sharing with your audience about your own practice of prayer. Alternatively, maybe an interview/episode on prayer, perhaps from different Christian practices, such as from Orthodox perspective, Catholic, Protestant, etc. Just a thought triggered by the Theologian merch. Keep up the good work spreading rhe good news. 👍

It should be clearly understood that Orthodoxy is not about being "eastern", nor "western" either. That is why I rather dislike the common title "Eastern Orthodox Church". The Church is Orthodox, period. (Well, catholic too, and apostolic, etc.) I happen to be "eastern"; my brother is "western"; we're both converts. The difference lies only in the Divine Liturgy we use primarily. (There are two prominent "eastern" liturgies used at different times in "eastern" parishes, so this is not an anomaly, nor a departure from tradition.) My brother and I are quite different sorts of people. We each have our own preferences and needs generally, and our own different growing to do. We each find the liturgy of our parishes to speak to our own hearts as though we are at home, where the other's liturgy speaks in a different accent. You might think of it as something akin to watching your favorite team play on its home turf one time, or on the visitor's turf another. You focus your attention on the same team, but from different angles. The key is that all these liturgies are expressions of the *same faith* , the *Orthodox faith* . There are not two "orthodoxies". There is mutual acceptance, the same brotherly (and sisterly) love, the same union in the Body of Christ. I attend an eastern liturgy and eastern services, but I am no less western for that: born in the United States, lived here my whole 70 years, where God put me in time and space. If I moved to Greece I'd be just as much a foreigner as an older Greek who moved here. But neither of us would have any reason to consider the other less Orthodox for that. In fact, I'd call it sinful if one of us did. I know a fair number of Greek-born, and they live among us U.S.-born, but I embrace them as they have embraced me. A bit foreign sometimes; not a bit alien. Eastern and Western, of one communion.

This helps me so much with the question of my idenity. I am a Scottish American, I'm far from Eastern or Russian. Wish I could, go American Orthodox. I'm am blessed with the 3 choices near me. Thank you!

Austin you should look into using zencastr at least for your audio. With zencastr the audio is recorded locally so if you or your guest has a connection issue the audio quality for the finished production isn't degrated or lost. Love your work hope this helps keep the quality of your content high

Why does someone need a western rite ? To me as a western person (former baptist), the Roman Catholic “western” style of worship is way stranger to me than Russian or Byzantine. If Byzantine chant sounds too middle eastern for you, go to a Russian or OCA church the music doesn’t sound that much different than Medieval western church music

@Kdriggs15

2 жыл бұрын

Because the West was Orthodox for 1000+ years and deserves to be recognized

@orthobroslovemyplaylists6254

2 жыл бұрын

I think it’s a good thing that western liturgies are in the canonical Orthodox Church again. They have their own unique appeal.

@Leo-uq6jp

2 жыл бұрын

Tell me you know nothing about the Western rite without telling me you know nothing about the Western Rite. Hopefully this video will open you up a bit.

@diegobarragan4904

2 жыл бұрын

St John of Shanghai and San Francisco did so much for the western rite. He’s the one that said don’t let anyone tell you that you need to be eastern in order to be Orthodox, that the west was Orthodox for 1000 years.

@autisticheadscarf

2 жыл бұрын

As a former western rite parishioner, I definitely agree that a westerner would feel very comfortable at an OCA parish.

Anyone watching this exactly a year later?

I'll not say too much about this but needless to say I can only thank Fr Patrick for speaking with such humility and love here! A few thoughts from those who dislike the Western Rite (and are Orthodox) Ultimately, if one denies the Western Rite - you deny the Latin patronage of the Orthodox Church, who produced Saints of both East and West and thus, western liturgies, theology and patristics are absolutely equal to their eastern counterpart. To be Orthodox is to accept this, the liturgy changes the cultus of how people are raised spiritually, what Fr Georges Florovsky (quite probably the greatest Orthodox theologian of the 20th century) envisioned is a true patristic synthesis - where both the Eastern and Latin traditions of the Church can be brought together, this is and should be the ultimate goal of the Western Rite, to 'un-easternify' itself and to bring balance to the Traditions of the Church. This means that St Augustine can and should be read as much as St Gregory of Nyssa, St Ambrose as much as St John Chysostom, St Hilary of Poitiers as St Basil the Great. This anti-western attitude is something that Fr Patrick is quite right in pointing out how modern of a novelty it is. When the Saints of the medieval period and early modern (whether St Nicholas Cabasilas, St Mark of Ephesus, St Gennadius Scholarius, St Peter Mogila, St Dimitri of Rostov, just to name a few, met and saw the works of the Latin Fathers, they praised them! They said they were exceptional nourishment for the soul, these same people also did much work in translating post-schism Western works such as Anselm of Canterbury, Thomas Aquinas and again, they praised these people to high heavens. Did they disagree with some of what they said? Certainly! But they still saw the good that their works did have. Ultimately criticisms of the Western Rite amount to denying the Catholicity of the Orthodox Catholic Church, not because a rite is somehow 'needed' to make the Church 'more Catholic' but rather because it leads people to deny the importance of the Latin Tradition and at times outright denies the graces that were poured out in the west through the spiritual life of the associated Western Rites.

@BruvaLucius

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge Did I ever criticise the Eastern Rite? I said nothing of the sort. It's not about whether people feel comfortable with the Churches Rites - It's about the recognition that the Orthodox Catholic Church has various patronages, all of which are equal to each other. The reason why there's such a reluctance for people to convert to Orthodoxy is simply because of this obsession with not hatred of the West, its the neglect of the Western Patronage that pushes people away, especially since Saints, Councils, theologians have all endorsed the Western Rite for this purpose.

@BruvaLucius

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge also not I never said that you can't criticise the Western Rite. Are there issues that can creep into something? Yes. Its like with anything as Fr Patrick said, Aquinas and Anselm mightve held errors (Aquinas more so) but that doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bath water. Saints Mark of Ephesus, Gennadius Scholarius, Gregory Palamas, Dimitri of Rostov, Peter Mogila and many others recognised this, that criticism of something doesn't mean something is inherently bad.

@BruvaLucius

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge Notice I said 'Ultimately' and note what I said after. Criticism of Rites isn't what I said was the issue. The reason why it's 'Ultimately' denying the Catholicity is that the arguments against the WR typically boil down to either 1. Eastern Rite Supremacy 2. A belief in the 'Latin Captivity' and general anti-westernism. The Church is Catholic - with multiple patristic and theological traditions that exist and they are equal. Father Georges Florovsky, one of the greatest Orthodox theologians wanted to see all these traditions balance each other. I've yet to see any actual engagement with the points I've made here.

I am glad to see/hear your pitch for mental health as there is a need for authentically Christian mental health providers. On Faithful Counseling: I’m watching this in 12/2023 and the link goes to Better Help. Please reconsider the endorsement as it is a different organization. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I am a mental health counselor and trained chaplain in North Carolina. I can provide consulting and coaching across the US.

@GospelSimplicity

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for letting me know about this. I will reach out to them and see what's going on

I was right! Love from Saint Columba Orthodox!

As a Roman Catholic, I fast and I will not be burned. If that's the top of the list then we're basically roommates. I think the look of the Roman Catholic Church is rough only because of the post conciliar chaos. I think both of those "top" issues are going to sort themselves out. Fasting is already on a comeback, and cremation is strongly discouraged (at least traditionally), which is a move in a positive direction. The schism won't be mended in my or my child's life time, but the it will eventually will be "mended." The union comes when the world is so brutalizing that we will have to unite to support one another. RCC has open arms, we don't expect the OC to open it's arms, but we're looking forward to the day that their back isn't turned to us. This video is highly encouraging and I hope the OC finds more Fr Patricks!

Read “Ex Oriente Lux” a brilliant biography, by Abba Seraphim, of Dr. Joseph J. Overbeck and his tragic rivalry with Father Stephen Hatherly, and the beginning and disagreements about the Western Orthodox revival.

Although I am fascinated by WR and have attended a nearby one a few times and admire their priest, it would be nice to hear Fr. Patrick in a discussion with someone who perhaps is “guilty” of some of these eastern polemics he talks about. I’ve listened to several of his interviews and he never gets any push back against some of his claims and I’d like to see what Fr. Trenham or Fr. Strickland might have to say about some of his remarks in a venue where there could be direct back and forth.

@KevinTheMetalhead

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge Adoration does happen at St. Patrick's. I think it's fine.

@KevinTheMetalhead

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge There's an article written by Fr. Patrick himself on the Orthodox West website (link in the description of the video) called "Benediction-Adoration: A Beautiful vision" where he defends Adoration. I would post the direct link but KZread keeps deleting my comment even if I try to work around it.

@maxonmendel5757

2 жыл бұрын

I would also like to see this, but perhaps between fr. Patrick and an lcms or Episcopalian priest about why Orthodoxy is necessary

@eldermillennial8330

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge To be fair, they don’t usually Consecrate the Eucharist specifically for this, the way modern Romans do, but encourage veneration of surplus. We have a lot of people who have to make long commutes to church and sometimes can’t make it, (SO many are converted from online study and aren’t necessarily close to a parish when they do) so our priests take a lot of pre sanctified Eucharist to people all over throughout the week who couldn’t make it to mass that Sunday. Is the Surplus kept for such circuit preaching and shut-ins not worthy of veneration in the meantime? It is how Rome started Eucharistic veneration to begin with, but they took it a step too far in standardizing it whether or not there was a surplus waiting (or even needed) for travel, instead of letting it happen mostly organically. Also, using a sample of a Meal to advertise a meal is an age old and effective way to promote It.

@eldermillennial8330

2 жыл бұрын

@@maxonmendel5757 Father Bundy could be both in that debate: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gYGsm5qNlbexo7g.html

If you are in Northern California check out All Saints Orthodox Mission. It’s a ROCOR Western Rite mission.

You’re a good kid

I have a question, and this is just based off my limited experience. I go to church on Easter, and people prostrate before an icon of Jesus in the tomb. My friend prostrates before Baba's icon before leaving the temple. How is the veneration of iconography different between what I've seen at church, and what I've seen at temple?

@etcwhatever

Жыл бұрын

The process is the same. The difference is the One being venerated. Jesus is God. The others in pagan religions are idols and false teachers. It is always about who is being venerated.

Orthodox from Finland, just saying hello 😊

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

Hello!

God bless

Just sang the service for St. Patrick yesterday at my Orthodox parish. But he’s right; “western” is a dirty word. Thus conversation has to be had theologically, though, and in dialogue. There’s reasons for this beyond chauvinism or ignorance. The Dr. Jeannie Constantinou’s are going to have to be convinced about Western vs. Eastern “thinking.”

14:09 it feels like stepping into a 13th century Canterbury garden

good vid

I am curious what Fr. Patrick meant when he compared the western view of treasury of merits vs the eastern view of merits. Very curious what the difference is!

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

I'd love to do a video just on the topic of merit

He's so right about losing 1,000 converts. I love Orthodoxy but my family got turned against it when some of the anti-Protestant things were mentioned. If someone is seeking, it's best to not insult how they came to Christ. Only a miracle will get them into Orthodoxy at this point. I feel "home" and love the Liturgy but the Slavic traditions are too much for them. On another topic, Protestants are so seeker-sensitive that they try not to offend, and this is very different within Orthodoxy. Just his "burn their dead" comment, while true, could drive away many. What about all the Christians who have been cremated not knowing it was not a Christian tradition, but a pagan one? Every truth needs to be expressed with the knowledge that listeners may have done that exact thing. My dad was cremated, but Jesus actually came to him when he was dying and my dad believed in Christ, and came back and told me about his vision. He died about a month later. I don't think cremation is right, it definitely wasn't good for me as a child for my dad to have made that choice, but I don't think it kept my dad out of heaven. I'm not offended, btw, but my mother might have been. I would love to visit his church if we're ever in the area. I can tell his heart is to bring people the full truth. We've lost so much in the West.

@davidvartanian

2 жыл бұрын

It’s always interesting to hear what someone emphasizes, because that reveals their priorities.

@OrthodoxInquirer

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge Greek tradition has one icon to venerate in the vestibule, at least the one I visited. At our Serbian church, you venerate the central icon, Christ and the Theotokos icons on the iconostasis, then again go up to kiss the central icon at the end of the service, and the cross, and the priest's hand. I know Greeks kiss the cross, too, but there is a lot more of it for a Protestant to adapt to in the Slavic style. My family was really overwhelmed with all the extra bows and kissing things. In our town, the Greek church didn't have as many converts and there were people saying unkind things about their own priest (who is a convert). They did this in the vestibule, complaining he mispronounced something. They also were hard on him on Facebook about an article he sent out about Halloween from a former Satan worshippers perspective. I could just tell many were worldly and didn't want to try, just keep their Greek traditions. It was sad. The Serbian church was full of converts who really wanted to be there, and love our priest. The priest is wonderful at the other congregation, but the parishioners were not very kind. I will shop around if I have two choices. There should only be one church in America-all English, technically, if we were to be like all other Orthodox countries. If the Western Rite was offered, it would be as legitimate as Eastern Rite. St. John Maximovich vouched for it and wanted to convert people using it, right? With Serbian being my choice because I love the people and the singing, and my family thouroughly turned off by various things, I may have to be baptized and chrismated alone. I'm not sure why Orthodox people don't want people to come. Why make it as off putting as possible, and insult Protestants to their faces? It's really strange, but we all know the enemy is working overtime.

@eldermillennial8330

2 жыл бұрын

@John Coolidge It varies. My brother in law is DEFINITELY more comfortable in the Western Rite, particularly regarding how the Eucharist is distributed. We converted from Trad Catholicism, however, so we’re not bringing all the potential Protestant baggage with us. This was how Orthodox Rome did it from at least the Dialogist’s time as Pope, and it’s in our bones to do it this way for most of us. Your argument’s applicability really depends on what someone wants to be comfortable ABOUT. Believe me, they couldn’t comprehend the spoon at a Uniate liturgy, either, when we were still struggling to believe in the papal dogmas. We considered pulling a “Matt Fradd” but, the spoon was always too strange for them. I don’t mind, but that’s just how some are built. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a lack of faith, per se. They have no doubt in the Eucharist, or at least I have no reason to doubt them. They are just culturally shy of the spoon, is all.

@eldermillennial8330

2 жыл бұрын

@@OrthodoxInquirer sigh. Many are so anti-ecumenical that they confuse apologetic diplomacy as synonymous with ecumenism.

@OrthodoxInquirer

2 жыл бұрын

@@eldermillennial8330 How do they distribute the Eucharist?

how long until the Church offers a rehabilitation of the Oriental Rites (Coptic, Ge’ez, West Syriac, East Syriac, etc.)?

@Melvin_Thoma

2 жыл бұрын

I read abt a bunch of Assyrians (maybe early 20th century?)... Who were East Syriac rite Christians (Church of the East).... Who when converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, had to fully become Byzantine Rite to be "Orthodox ". Sadly. And they became Eastern Orthodox.

@jamesbancroft2467

2 жыл бұрын

@@Melvin_Thoma :/. I know some aspects of the Nestorian services wouldn’t fly (“The Hallowing of Nestorius” for example), but the overall rite predates the Nestorian schism I think

@maxcarvalho9071

2 жыл бұрын

Very difficult. I know a bit of the Coptic liturgy, and they have very heavy christological content at times that would need to be scrapped or changed.

Im not sure if I understood correctly but the father saying that the Catholics don’t fast is just not true. In fact we are currently in the period of fasting for 40 days.

One example of anti-Westernism in Orthodoxy... When I was preparing for chrismation, I initially chose a cross that was a Celtic crucifix. Some Orthodox online told me the cross wasn't appropriate because the feet of Christ were depicted one over the other, pierced by a single nail, which is common in western crucifixes. (Some Orthodox even consider such a depiction of Christ's feet heretical. The "triclavian" heresy.) Feeling a bit dejected, I chose another cross. During Holy Week some time later, when the crucifix behind the altar was brought out, processed around the congregation, and placed up front for our veneration, I noticed the feet were depicted as in that Celtic crucifix-rather than the more common Byzantine style of feet side-by-side, punctured by separate nails.

@GrandCelestialKnight

2 жыл бұрын

Trust me dude, I'm sick of the anti Western bias in Orthodoxy.

@gregpavlik6474

Жыл бұрын

Rule one for Orthodoxy (or any other religion): everyone should avoid online religious "advisors" as the highest priority.

@roytofilovski9530

6 ай бұрын

Ask your priest. Forget about what people online think.

As someone interested in Orthodoxy (tentatively) but depressed to find I truly live at a ridiculous distance from any Orthodox Parish, also being a proud Anglo-American who might actually be sympathetic to the Orthodox Way (a shame nobody could've reached out during the Reformation in Britain methinks) who just isn't about to LARP being Oriental (not going to trade one for another) this interests me greatly! Would love to know more.

what about the charismatics? is there room for expression of the Holy spirit in the orthodox church?

@handel1111

Ай бұрын

Charismatic movement is heresy

Now, this is a guy who I think has good thoughts. I had an Eastern Orthodox friend tell me when I became Lutheran how i could be Lutheran because a tradition that came out of a dead tradition is a dead tradition. It kind of shut down the dialogue real quick

@ronfelix6507

2 жыл бұрын

@OrthodoxyChloroQuine You didn't watch the video, did you?

@philmattox8500

2 жыл бұрын

Ron, I am Eastern Orthodox but I'm a bit shocked by the tone and language used to put down Lutheranism. Having been raised and baptized in the Southern Baptist Christian community, entering into communion with Roman Catholicism while I was in college and, finally finding my home in Eastern Orthodoxy I am a great proponent of emphasizing our commonalities, which are numerous in our differences but if we can recite the Nicene- Constantinopolitan Creed together and say Amen at the end we are definitely Christian brothers and sisters Asnd as brothers and sisters

@philmattox8500

2 жыл бұрын

As Christian brothers and sisters we engage with one another where we agree and be charitable with honored with one another

@philmattox8500

2 жыл бұрын

Where we disagree. The final post by OrthodoxyChloroQuine was more to my taste and in the spirit of Christian charity. You did not say which scented a Lutheran to which you belong but I have been impressed by a couple of Lutheran ministers on KZread. One is from the Lutheran Church of Missouri synod and the other is from the American Association of Lutheran Churches. I know there are significant differences between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy when you get into the weeds and those are significant differences. However I had very little to find issue with from Christian basics with these two Representatives of Lutheranism.

@philmattox8500

2 жыл бұрын

I apologize for the abominable syntax and spelling in the above posts. Please do not judge the Eastern Orthodox by inability to properly proofread the AI before I press the send button. If my senior year English teacher Miss Crater

I think it's funny that the two ecclesial entities that claim to be the Catholic Church both possess each other's rites.

@mariorizkallah5383

2 жыл бұрын

Western rite orthodoxy doesn’t do Novus Ordo, also i think they do the liturgy of pope saitn gregory the great

@tylerk1013

2 жыл бұрын

@@mariorizkallah5383 Their "Liturgy of Pope St Gregory the Great" is just the TLM according to rubrics from like the 1950s. They celebrate the feastday of Christ the King as instituted by like Pius XI or XII or something before the feast day was moved to what it is on the 1962 calendar.

@KevinTheMetalhead

2 жыл бұрын

"Each other's rites" Both rites belong to Orthodoxy.

@AveChristusRex

2 жыл бұрын

@@mariorizkallah5383 "Western rite orthodoxy doesn’t do Novus Ordo" Niether do Catholics ;)

@AveChristusRex

2 жыл бұрын

@@KevinTheMetalhead The Pope-Saints disagree.

Western Rite = Latin Mass = Roman Rite = Mass of the West = Mass of Pope St. Gregory the Great = Catholic Mass able to be said by Orthodox because the theology of the Liturgy is the same when you remove accreted hostility and diatribical convinctions.

@eldermillennial8330

2 жыл бұрын

And remove “Filioque”, the first false accretion. Saint Tikhon also rehabilitated Cranmer’s Anglican mass, a far bigger challenge, but it was easier than having former Anglican priests try to Learn St Osmond’s Divine Liturgy in its pristine form. Some do, but it is the most massive form of High Mass after the Ambrosian.

@truckdriver8416

2 жыл бұрын

Does this Western Rite Orthodox Church have the Hail Mary, Stations of the Cross add the Rosary? Does the priest drink the wine only or does he allow everyone else to drink it also? Does he use leaven or unleavened bread? Or those priests allowed to be married?

@AveChristusRex

2 жыл бұрын

​@@truckdriver8416 Western Orthodox is literally just 'hey, no pope pls.' But you don't get to therefore import the East into perennial Western customs, rites, liturgies, etc therefore. It doesn't follow. St. Paul wished all could be celibate. The West made this a requirement if you wish to be a presbyter/elder/bishop. Like it or not. If the East differs, good. But don't pretend the West just didn't exist and didn't have its own customs or rules. Did Christ hold the Passover with leavened or unleavened bread? It was literally the fest of unleavened bread on which He instituted the Eucharist. So I wouldn't exactly make that a make or break. Not that I wouldn't be against the Apsostles having instituted leavened bread for the Eucharist.. just that it's not exactly a strong argument, is it.

@truckdriver8416

2 жыл бұрын

@@AveChristusRex well you really didn't answer my questions about Mary in the Rosary. The Russian Church wants did a sermon on the Hail Mary that I'll listen to that was really nice. The no marriage thing for the clergy was actually to keep all property and money in the coffers of the church instead of going to the children's inheritance. That's a matter of coveting quite frankly and we all see the sins of homosexuality that came out of that don't we. As for the Upper Room there were two ceremonies that took place not one. The first ceremony was a traditional Passover meal with unleavened bread. The second ceremony was the New Covenant with leavened bread. So does the Western right do the Hail Mary the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross? I figured since you claim to have gone there you would know this much appreciated a response

@AveChristusRex

2 жыл бұрын

@@truckdriver8416 "The no marriage thing for the clergy was actually to keep all property and money in the coffers of the church instead of going to the children's inheritance. That's a matter of coveting quite frankly and we all see the sins of homosexuality that came out of that don't we." That. Or, celibacy and virginity was praised by the Fathers in general, but by St. Paul specifically, who wished "all men were as I am, [celibate]." And who taught that those who are not married can better dedicate themselves to the service of God. Think to yourself, who first comes to mind among those who ought to devote their life to the service of God? Hmmm. Who could that be? "As for the Upper Room there were two ceremonies that took place not one. The first ceremony was a traditional Passover meal with unleavened bread. The second ceremony was the New Covenant with leavened bread." This is nowhere in either Scripture or Tradition. "So does the Western right do the Hail Mary" The Hail Mary is DIRECTLY from Scripture, and the "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death" is, of course, obviously, Orthodox. Both East and West, we object to what is 'foreign' or 'not customaryin our tradition' without a good reason. You'll find a lot of things you're comfortable with come from the Fathers and we in the West are uncomfortable with. But the same applies to us: we're uncomfortable with some of the things in the Fathers that are familiar to you. If you can sing the Agni Parthene, we can sing the Memorare.

Orthodox when Orthodox attend Eastern Liturgies in the West: 🦗🦗🦗 Orthodox when Orthodox attend Western Liturgy in the West: 👀👀👀

Fr Patrick said he had to be Russian or Greek due to the sin of the schism. I would say it's the same answer for a Catholic as well. Although there are Eastern Catholic churches in the US, I know many eastern Catholics who attend Latin Catholic parishes just because they are more widely available and close by. The eastern chruches are smaller and a nearest parish could be far way. And 98-99% of Catholics are Latin. So even many Catholics have to be Western/Latin for the most part even tho they are eastern. Plus altho Byzantine Catholic churches are traditional ("eastern"), many of the other eastern rite churches are heavily latinized.

I wanted to point out that almost every Roman church in my region for the last 100+ years has had an icon of Our Mother of Perpetual Help in it. I live in the USA. If I remember correctly, Romans are not allowed to cremate either except by a form of dispensation for grave reasons and they also cannot hold a funeral with the ashes. Sorry, but Father is mistaken. They'll have to do a memorial Mass only. I would go with the obsession with apparitions as not keeping with the faith over cremation if we're picking a point, personally. OCA takes the same stance as the RCs, as someone in the comments pointed out!

do we need to be charitable to evangelicals? are they within the bounds of orthodoxy in their expression of faith?

@tryingnottobeasmartass757

2 жыл бұрын

"Honor all men." I Peter 2:17

It would be interesting to see how similar the western orthodox rite is to Anglo catholic Solemn Mass

@Yasmirr

6 ай бұрын

I had a look and it is almost identical. Just no Filioque

The Liturgy of St. James Brother of the Lord is the Great Bridge and the overlapping of the spheres East & West.

Does anyone know which western liturgy (mass) does the orthodox western rite perform? I would think it would be a pre-schism liturgy (mass), and specifically not a post 1570 Tridentine mass approved by Pope Pius V?

@GospelSimplicity

2 жыл бұрын

Liturgy of Gregory the Great I believe

@OCZ300M

2 жыл бұрын

Some use the Sarum Rite.

@Gamolmann

2 жыл бұрын

Also the Liturgy of St Tikhon is used, which is a modified English usage.

@dylanarmour6727

8 ай бұрын

My parish is Gregorian rite

I must disagree on a particular point, and that is Thomas Aquinas' treatise Against the Greeks, which while it is debated if he named it that and how to look at it from an Orthodox perspective, fundamentally is reinforcing positions against those taken by the four remaining ancient Patriarchates. So, I would take the Aquianas bit with a "grain of salt." And yes, there are some works by Aquinas that even I like, but I do not take a major dogmatic stance on them, such as with De regno ad regem Cypri, which is a work I happened to enjoy.

Western rite Orthodoxy conforms more closely to the classic definition of uniatism as a ritual adjunct of a particular Church, than do the Eastern Catholic Churches today, which not only possess true autonomy and ecclesial status, but also have been enjoined to recover the fullness of their authentic Tradition--in contrast to the Western rite communities, which have been subjected to a process of "byzantinization" in the form of additions to their liturgy such as a consecratory epiclesis and a Byzantine-style pre-communion prayer. In light of this, it's hard to take Orthodox criticism of uniatism with a straight face.

From OCA website: Question How does the Orthodox Church view cremation? Answer The Church does not condemn cremation outright, provided that there is a valid reason for it. In Japan, for example, the state requires cremation, and this extends to Orthodox Christians. There have also been exceptions made in cases of epidemics or fear of disease, for various reasons. There can also be reasonable cause for permitting cremation, but in general the image of the body being buried as it awaits the resurrection is more in keeping with the image given to us by Christ, Who likens burial with the planting of seed which later blossoms into a living plant.

@amg2598

Жыл бұрын

Yep. the Roman Catholics actually take a bit stronger stance than this even. I do not think that part of the video was fair.

I've felt that the existence of western rite you can see the diffrence between little t and big T traditions enough to know the diffrence between the theological truth of the orthodox faith and the theologically influenced practices of the orthodox church

This priest is a true gem. The meme, mostly online, Orthodox apologetic that is antagonistic to anything western really attracts a particular type of convert. And it does so at the expense of many open minded individuals that are interested in the truth. And he's also right that this anti-western, meme theology is rooted in the slavophile, Parisian movement, with its emphasis on eastern "distinctives."

@helpIthinkmylegsaregone

2 жыл бұрын

I think it's also rooted in the fact that the main export of the West for the past 30 years has been satanic nonsense. I mean yeah, there's western rite orthodoxy, but almost only in America and really not in meaningful numbers, so it doesn't really change the picture, other than that maybe it provides a vision of something that could be revived.

@eldermillennial8330

2 жыл бұрын

It began when Doctor Joseph J Overbeck and Father Stephen Hatherly came to cross purposes in the London newspapers during the latter part of the Tractarian debates, wasting time in pitting Orthodox against Orthodox instead of uniting to focus against both Romanism and Protestantism.

@E.D.B

Жыл бұрын

I’ve met him; I can confirm he is most certainly a gem…

9/11 today is my 29th anniversary as a convert… but the Protestant Church game me everything I needed to get here for 46 years! Glory to God! In the beginning… some converts act like X-smokers or people who just lost 40 lbs and tell you where YOUR diet is wrong and why you are FAT! Eeewwwww! Humans especially now have a bad habit of bragging. Just wait a year after 6 months of prayer and fasting kicks that ego to the ground! It takes time but that’s the point of putting Christ in the center of everything instead of ourselves.

Imagine if there was some hierarchy which could approve or disapprove the same way except when bishops made requests almost like a head of the church on earth when bishops can’t go directly to Jesus for approval

Also the idea of having organs in houses of ill repute is hilarious

Is this church in communion with the historic patriarchates?

@tonyrandall8703

2 жыл бұрын

Yes

@AveChristusRex

2 жыл бұрын

Why would observing the historic Rite of the West in the Western Orthodox church constitute a problem for the Orthodox church?!

@Joshua-ch2ij

Жыл бұрын

Yes

So in his opinion is 1054 only a misunderstanding? Or was the west in error?

@mitrahispana4119

4 ай бұрын

Perhaps, but not in a way that would invalidate the liturgy of the West. The differences were mostly political; the Bishop of Rome asserted jurisdiction over the entire world.

❤

It gets really confusing, eastern catholic and western orthodox. Whats the difference?

@Leo-uq6jp

2 жыл бұрын

It's not that confusing unless you make it confusing, there are parishes under Eastern Orthodox bishops that use the Western Liturgical rite. It's really that simple, they are completely Orthodox and in communion with the Orthodox Church, but their liturgy is the ancient Western Liturgy. Eastern Catholics are a whole different thing.

@AveChristusRex

2 жыл бұрын

Basically, East and West once belonged to the one Catholic Church, and have always used different Liturgies, East and West, with Apostolic similarities built in, all coming from the Apostles ultimately. Since the Schism, the West has not really been Orthodox, and the East not really been Catholic. But we both know we were once one, only a thousand years ago. As such, Orthodox are rediscovering the Liturgy of the West/Rome, as they are to be praised for doing, and the Eastern Catholics who rejoined Rome have retained their Eastern Liturgies.

Why does the western orthodox liturgy use vernacular instead of Latin?

@roytofilovski9530

6 ай бұрын

Because in Orthodoxy it is not proper to ban any language. Any language can be used, it all depends on the parish.

For me I do like orthodoxy, but really love many of the western pre-schism saints, especially on the British isles (Cuthbert, David of Wales, Thaney, Nonnita, Bede, Ita, etc…).Even some after 1095(St Francis). Love God, Love others. Change the world.😉

@brandorev

2 жыл бұрын

Bought Augustine’s City of God, confessions (per Fr Seraphim Rose’s praise for the books), and the consolation of philosophy by Boethuis. Look forward to reading them.

@brandorev

2 жыл бұрын

St Patrick! There is an icon of him next to door to the Nave.

@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese

Жыл бұрын

Saint Tiberieus

As a Former RC who lived through the “reforms” of Vat2, I cringe around the Roman rite of Liturgy. Sad

Ah, Kentucky. The Holy land.

I feel like I vacillate between Western Rite Orthodoxy & Byzantine Rite Catholicism in my heart, and then there's my occasional affinity to the Continuing Anglican Movement, the SSPX & the Personal Ordinariate...man, it's hard to find a theological home, but oh so easy to know which versions of Christianity you wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole, these days.

Being one who is currently in a "year of considering the East", Fr. Cardine had me near convinced until he started using an illustration that seems to imply that the Eastern Church is without flaw. I cannot abide a tradition that teaches it's tradition and structure is inerrant.

In my observations. The WR is an appeal to High Church Protestants and Trad Catholics. People who already have a Liturgical Understanding and a familiarity of the Rite of St. Tikhon/St. Gregory. Low Church Protestants and Novus Ordo Catholics will just jump straight to Russian/Greek Liturgical Traditions and openly embrace it. The AWRV and the ROCOR WR are so few and far between, with ROCOR being very Zealous about strangeness creeping in and "Byzantifying" Parishes. There's more than one issue I personally have with the expression of Piety within the WR but that's not for me to correct. With the loss of Met. Joseph and Met. Tikhon there are few in Antioch and ROCOR that support the WR.

I admire the intentions of the Western Rite movement, and I respect Fr. Patrick. Though I enjoy and support the basic ideals of this movement, I want to kindly point out its flaws, and later the solutions to those errors. -The Western rite use of statues is a Roman Catholic tradition, with no real pre-great schism origins. The style starts to be seen in its basic forms in the 11th century, a very sad century, since it marked the Great Schism. -Pre-great schism Catholicism overwhelmingly used its unique style of mosaics, mozarabic and italo-byzantine iconography, and regional variants of two-dimensional Christian artwork. Solution: Revive these old forms of two-dimensional iconography, particularly italo-byzantine, Mozarabic, and mosaics. Causes of this error: most western-rite orthodox are roman Catholic converts, and so mistake the roman catholic art for pre-great Schism Catholic art.

@MrSofuskroghlarsen

Жыл бұрын

I read somewhere that some byzantine churches (and present day Greek ones) also had statues. Honestly, why does Orthodoxy have to adhere solely to the byzantine aesthetic? Ethiopian churches have their own iconography that differs from the byzantine style.

@order_truth_involvement6135

Жыл бұрын

@@MrSofuskroghlarsen We do have statues, I never made any claim against that. The intention and rule of the western rite is to look like a pre-great schism parish. Therefore, they need far more icons than statues. Ethiopian iconography is acceptable and accurate.

@order_truth_involvement6135

Жыл бұрын

@@MrSofuskroghlarsen We do not use only byzantine style iconography. I don't know why you got that impression. Russian iconography is different, and so is arabic/Antiochian iconography.

@roytofilovski9530

6 ай бұрын

​@@MrSofuskroghlarsenBaroque iconography is permissible in Orthodoxy so long as it does not stray from church teaching. There are lots of Ortho churches in Serbia for example with Baroque icons.

@roytofilovski9530

6 ай бұрын

Pretty sure that statues existed in the West prior to the schism.

Do Western rite Orthodox insist on re-baptism or excommunicate priests that re-baptize?

Prayin' ya come to the Orthodox Church, perhaps in the Western Rite, dude. ☦️

1:14:10 he completely denies enculturation. This is an ASTRONOMICALLY huge issue. The westerners may have the western rite, Indians the saint Thomas, what are you offering to Nigerians, Congolese, Fijians, Maasai, Chinese or Malays? And that is putting aside the multicultural and ethnic nature of America for one second. This is myopic Anglo self importance, takes one to know one. He complains about the liturgy changing the “cult” culture… THATS THE POINT. And no, that won’t make you a nebulous “eastern” (dramatically different cultures for the record) it will make the culture Orthodox.

@BruvaLucius

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think you heard him correctly. He's not talking about cultus as in the culture of a country. He refers to the environment people are spiritually nourished - the western rites are equal to the eastern ones in that regard, Pope St Leo, Pope St Gregory, St Ambrose, St Hilary, St Augustine, St Oswald, St Alban, St Dunstan - all these saints of the church and many many many more were raised and spiritually nourished by solely the western rite. That alone means that East and West are both equal in that regard, so why not want to bring that theological equality to the fore by endorsing the Western Rite, its the liturgy of the Latin Patristic patronage, which again, produced countless Saints of the Church so naturally its something we should desire more of. Its nothing about enculturation if anything he probably (though ill not speak as if I know what he wants!) WANTS enculturation, the significant amount of Orthodox Churches in the US are ran by GOARCH who, while I know many I deeply admire and respect in GOARCH, has a strong 'hellenistic' attitude with very little evangelism going on. The view of Orthodoxy being based along national lines and being cultural club isn't something people hear about for absolutely zero reasoning. If people historically grew up around a Western Liturgical life then suddenly are thrust into an Eastern Liturgical life, which differs quite a bit in their emphasis, its only natural that many people can be and indeed are put off by these foreign practices. They're foreign and people genuinely, whether it's right or wrong, don't like to stick their necks into something foreign to them all of a sudden.