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@theguyver4934

9 ай бұрын

Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )

@MrDollazncents

8 ай бұрын

Can you ask him to speak on the book of Jasher??

He's one of the priests God used most to draw me to Orthodoxy. I'm a catechumen now. In a round about way, your channel helped too, Austin. God bless you.

@HudsonFamily7

9 ай бұрын

Me 2

@fernandoxavier5688

9 ай бұрын

Glory be to God!

@stevecochran9078

3 ай бұрын

Same here. And he has since helped me increase my knowledge.

@marina-hermione

20 күн бұрын

Glory to God! God bless your journey.

Take that Dan Brown. Fr. Stephen is now pretty much my favorite Bible teacher. Not because he is the "Orthodox Mike Heiser", but because he wants to help explain the historical and saintly view of history, which is EXTREMELY needed in the modern evangelical west.

@ryrocks9487

2 ай бұрын

I definitely think there’s a common Michael Heiser to Eastern Orthodoxy pipeline that commonly goes through Lord of Spirits.

@NVRSTP

Ай бұрын

I agree; newly converted to orthodox after lukewarm living after a past life in Protestantism. Trying to wrap my head around Theotokos, saints and all - but loving the depth and traditions and love I feel from Christ in His body.

This kinda stuff is a game changer. I graduated from protestant Bible College, and this approach to history/scripture is part of what drew me into the Orthodox church

@AnHebrewChild

8 ай бұрын

I'm fully convinced of the Orthodox bible 'canon.' Interestingly, the first King James Bible as well as the Geneva before it had the full book set of Orthodoxy. I use an early form of the KJV with all 80 books (# depends on how one counts them). There's a reason to put canon in quotes. It points to a more underlying issue concerning _approach to scripture:_ one which treats the bible as received in a concentric emphasis (certain books being the outer court, others the holy place, some the very holy of holies: but all part of the temple structure). I've heard it analogised essentially in ways like this from more than one Orthodox theologian. After Jesus feeds the five thousand with the five loaves and two fishes, ("the word of God grew and multiplied" Acts12:24), he says to his disciples, "When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, 'Gather ye up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.'

@1337Jag

8 ай бұрын

@danullb yup, Orthodoxy is all about participating in the death and resurrection of Christ through sacramental worship and a life of obedience. Once that is underway, everything else comes with it. Proper hermenutixs and all :)

@1337Jag

6 ай бұрын

@Bradlee418 glory to God you got out of Calvinism and are now in Christ's church

I’m Catholic but appreciate Dr. De Young and his scholarship.

@StoaoftheSouth

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, ditto.

@georgefuentes4112

8 ай бұрын

Same here. It feels that it can help decrease some of the animosity our fellow Protestant brothers have against us and the lesser known Orthodox.

@robertotapia8086

8 ай бұрын

I concur my Catholic brothers and sisters.

@victoriathorlacius874

8 ай бұрын

@phlebas9204 thank you! Fixed!

The Book of Sirach saved me: ‘the evil man runs away even when no one is chasing him’ - it opened my eyes to someone in my life.

@AnHebrewChild

8 ай бұрын

The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion. PROV28:1

Father De Young is using his God-given talents to help bless so many of us.

@ephesiansbrowne5982

9 ай бұрын

Take that Dan Brown

@leondbleondb

9 ай бұрын

Right?

This honestly gave me really great insight into my own tradition as an Anglican. Our Articles talk about the Apocryphal books as being useful for instruction in manners but not to establish doctrine-which is why they often show up in our daily lectionaries (to be used privately) but not in our Sunday lectionaries (to be read publicly like the Canonical books).

@NavelOrangeGazer

6 ай бұрын

At least in Episcopalian circles Tobit is sometimes used for wedding readings.

Idk if its really considered apocrypha per se in protestant circles but the LXX extended text of Esther is absolutely inspiring. The prayers are beautiful. May St. Esther be an example to us all. ☦️🙏

Take that Dan Brown! Thanks Austin, thanks Father Stephen!

Thanks, Austin, that was really interesting.

@GospelSimplicity

5 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Take that Dan Brown! Thank you for your channel. I am an EO from Eastern Europe and have learned a lot from Fr. Stephen by listening to his "Whole Counsel of God" podcast-a verse-by-verse study of the Scriptures. I cannot recommend it enough. For me, it is the catechesis I missed. It helps that we are of similar age and that he is American (while I was born and raised in an EO country), as we are products of our times and need the stories retold in our language, just as every generation likely was.

Presvytera Eugenia Constantineau addressed the non-canonical texts in her Search the Scriptures podcast many years ago. I would highly recommend interviewing her on her understanding of these texts, based on her extensive expertise on the Gopels and all Holy Scripture. Please consider this thought, I think it is very important to get her perspective, based on the teachings of the ancient Church Fathers.

The historical fiction analogy helps me a lot. So we approach these like we approach the TV show The Chosen. It continues to make me think about events in the gospel from new angles that makes me dig in more and ask more questions like "Am I assuming a tone of voice for Jesus and assigning meaning from that assumption?"

I’m EO and am always pleased for his contributions. I do wish this subject could be had on those books used in apostolic churches and eschewed by Protestants, namely, the Wisdom books. These are read from in services, and form important ways of thinking about various topics that, I think, contribute in substance to the on-going discussion about the Faith.

@toddvoss52

8 ай бұрын

Love the Wisdom books. And yes when they show up in liturgy , it shows off their riches!!

@NavelOrangeGazer

6 ай бұрын

Hearing wisdom literature at vespers is always a treat

Can't wait for this one...

I’m not sure where or what Dan Brown should take, but I made it to the end. Mary’s background sounds interesting to me. I find myself wanting more context/history than is solely in the gospel accounts.

Thank you for these interviews.

Thanks Austin, Another great interview.

Excellent discussion. Always enjoy hearing from Fr. Stephen!

Take that Dan Brown! Definitely a fan of Fr De Young and the LoS podcast. Thank you for producing this video! I love studying these books as they just give such breadth to the Faith. My Patron Saint is St Joachim ☦️

I bought the Audible audiobook and look forward to listening to it. Thanks for the great interview.

Great discussion of the Marian traditions' relationship to the 2nd Century Protoevangelium of James. This brings to mind the concept of Orthodox "phronema": truth is not reductive to text, the texts themselves were coming from a church milieu, preserved in tradition. So the PoJ is not the "source" of the names of Joachim and Anna, the source was older and was then reflected in the PoJ, which memorializes this older information for the future. This is much like the preface to Luke: I have gathered materials for this book.

@NavelOrangeGazer

6 ай бұрын

Just as St. Anne's mother St. Maria is not found in the protoevangelium but is established in the oral tradition passed down through the synaxarions and iconographic tradition. I think basically having three lines of tradition, oral, written, and iconographic protected the consistency of the traditions better in the east. Whereas iconography basically underwent constant innovation and by reinvention in post schism Rome. Rome started inventing a lot of stuff in the middle ages/renaissance that justifiably led to suspicion from protestants regarding all oral traditions. The complete revision of St. Mary Magdalene's haigiographies, and the innovation that St. Joseph the Betrothed was young rather than older come to mind.

@charlesiragui2473

6 ай бұрын

@@NavelOrangeGazer On St Mary Magdalen: I have wondered whether the Western view of her as a fallen woman, absent from the Eastern hagiography, comes from a garble of crusaders bringing back the story of St Mary of Egypt. The parallel is strong with Magdalen’s supposed retreat to a wilderness for penitential prayer.

Thank you to both of You … very instruktive and sound … your integrity shines through all the way 👍🙏 a Catholic friend 🥰

You know I listened to the end Austin! I knew an expert (international) on Enoch. He translated Ethiopian texts. I have a copy of his out of print book which is highly sought after. Anyway, Enoch is, like Revelations, a magnet for every kooky interpretation… especially those outside Christianity. This is why both are not read in the Orthodox Liturgy. They are always read as mystery writings, because you can’t understand them fully. Descriptions are given within the knowledge of the author in that time and might be described differently in our time. Anyway, it is interesting. I like reading the Apocryphal books with exciting stories like the book of Judith. Historical Books like Maccabees. The Apocryphal writings do not denigrate Christ as the Messiah or His Divinity and the incarnation in any way. If anything, there is helpful context by providing additional history.

@thevioletrevolution

9 ай бұрын

Can you give us the author and name of the book by the Enoch expert please?

@bonniejohnstone

8 ай бұрын

Daniel C. Olson Enoch: A New Translation Amazon Paperback $345 and up. I have a signed copy… I’ve seen the price almost $1000 because it’s out of print and limited. Dan translated Ethiopian liturgical texts from Gez to English for a particular Ethiopian Hierarch. There was a small Bible study group at my Parish in California that Dan was part of. The group had scholars who spoke Greek (new and old), Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, Gez, and Church Copt. These were the best discussions, some of which flew over my head I admit!. As things do in time, people age and move for work, retirement or grandkids. But, these lovely people left a trail of gifts behind them and went forward to share those gifts with others.

Thank you for this interview. It greatly widened my worldview. Wow, what a time, I'm writing rhyme!

thank you 🙏

Take that Dan Brown! Thank you Austin, your work is very appreciated! ⚘️

Thank you father.

Having started to read Fr Stephen's book I was greatly helped by hearing him speak and fleshing things out a bit more. Coming from the Anglican tradition, where we have always read the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament (as printed in the early edition of the Authorised Version (or KJV version for Americans) of 1611, I found this very helpful to consider an even wider group of books that may be profitable for "example of life and instruction of manners"

Made it through all the video. Very interesting for a Swedish protestant.

Glory to Jesuschrist ❤

Well done! I trust, by now, you are Orthodox. Peace in Christ.

Take that Dan Brown! Thank you for this great content. I just recently discovered your channel and absolutely love it:) Thank you

@GospelSimplicity

8 ай бұрын

Glad you found the channel and that you're enjoying it!

Great job mate

@joshuacrock

8 ай бұрын

Also... "take that dan brown"

just bought the book 📕 great stuff, a Catholic brother 👏😀

Take that, Dan Brown! 😂 Welp, yet another awesome sounding book to add to my ever growing to-read list, lol! Great interview ❤️ May the Lord be magnified!

Take that Dan Brown!! Great inteview! Thankyou!

Take that Dan Brown (but I pray that he comes to know and follow Christ)! Thank you for this interview and for all of your hard work on this channel :). I’m on my way out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy, and now plan to add Fr Stephen’s book to my interminable list! God bless you, Austin…..

Dan Brown, I don't know why this commentator is picking on you.... but I'm here for you. Excellent video, I so appreciate it. Thanks!

Take that Dan Brown...? Really enjoyed this convo - thank you!

I finally get to see him!😆

Take that dan brown. Great interview

Another good book related to this that I have on my bookshelf is *Ancient Texts for New Testament Studies* by Craig A. Evans. It can be a bit dull to read at times, so I don't know how it compares to Fr. Stephen's book in that regard. But I still recommend it.

I think there is a good example of the various categories Fr Stephen discusses - Many details of the Feast of the Presentation of the Theotokos into the Temple (one of the 12 Major Feasts) are clearly based on the traditions presented in the Gospel of James BUT the liturgical scripture readings for the Divine Liturgy, Matins, Vespers etc only come from the Old and New Testament canonical books.

This definition of 'apocrypha' has been the one I've grown up with in Lutheran Churches (just most Lutherans I know are sometimes lazy or just focussed on the basics/the canon). Also it's fun being part of the tradition that supposedly began the whole 'sola scriptura' but technically has an open canon with regional differences.

the irony is he is wearing a hoodie with " theology nerd on it" and talking to an actual theology Nerd. So appreciate Fr. De Young... he hsa helped me on , my journey to Orthodoxy. God bless both of you and thanks for putting this together.

Take that, Dan Brown!

Take that Dan Brown! Great discussion! Thank you for hosting it!

Enoch and similar apocalyptic literature is so engaging that it can tempt one to the excesses of speculative theology . . . Likely why it was widely read, esp in an age of persecution, but not taken into the canon . . . IMO!

@redcenturion88

8 ай бұрын

Which theological assumptions might someone make by reading too deeply into said texts? Genuinely curious.

Take that Dan Brown!! 🙂 On a more serious note, I too was bewildered on first attempt by Shepard of Hermas and just dropped/skipped it. An abstract allegorical apocalypse apparently. But a little later I circled back and tried to find some online commentaries. But the best one I found was a hardback (expensive even then. available now for $40) by an ELCA scholar exegete even though I was confessional Lutheran Church Missouri Synod in my theology and on the verge of conversion to the Catholic Church. The text is by Carolyn Osiek and is very scholarly . But just the introduction and the commentary on the first couple chapters helped me quite a bit. It is a sort of apocalypse but very different from others - as it is primarily about penitence and deeper conversion to Christ. It is a work of the Spiritual Life and call to conversion. A warning not to be "double minded" but to go "all in". Yes done through allegory but once you have that key - it seems much less abstract. Also, it appears that Hermas may have been directing this as much to himself if you accept some of the traditions of his own personal background (can be found online). So it is personal and a call to repent and go deeper into Christ . A call not just to individuals (although that) but a call to the Church. This is why it was often given to catechumens to start them on the way to shedding the old man and rising with Christ as a new man. A preparation for baptism or also a good text for the period immediately after baptism ("don't be double minded"!). So give it a read.

@GospelSimplicity

8 ай бұрын

This is super helpful!

@toddvoss52

8 ай бұрын

@@GospelSimplicity we aim to serve 🙂

@princekermit0

6 ай бұрын

​@GospelSimplicity the problem with Sheppard of Hermas is it contains the seeds for the heresy of adoptionism and was highly regarded by those who would be later condemned at the ecumenical councils. whether or not if was the intent of the writer it was taken that way by some, even if it was an ahistoric reading.

@grantguikema9821

6 ай бұрын

@@princekermit0there is a chapter in the book on it.

TAKE THAT, DAN BROWN!

Haha I was with Fr.Stephen De Young while this was playing how ironic lol 😅

@adrianw5055

8 ай бұрын

What's on his nose?

@MangyPL

8 ай бұрын

​@@adrianw5055He has a nose wart or something similar. He has it in every other video,but the light makes it more pronounced

Ditto!

1:12:21 Take that Dan Brown! A comment on Calendar debates in the Church. In my former life as a radical 7th day fundamentalist Christian, we were very concerned about keeping the Holy Days of Leviticus correctly. There were many calendar debates among our factions. A common extreme position was that each location had to observe for themselves the first visible crescent of the new moon in order to determine the beginning of each month. There were agricultural rules for which moon started off the year. It was all incredibly complex and inexact! I finally decided the best path was to accept the determination of the Jewish authorities. It was an early lesson in trusting the authority of governing bodies within the church. Me & Jesus only gets you so far!

@YajunYuanSDA

8 ай бұрын

You should have become a Seventh-day Adventist, you only need to keep the moral law.

@quayscenes

8 ай бұрын

@@YajunYuanSDA SDA is less radical, but I still consider them fundamentalist. Were you born into SDA or did you convert? My own studies led me to the Catholic Church where I have been happy for the last 19 years!

@YajunYuanSDA

8 ай бұрын

@@quayscenes Born into it. "It was an early lesson in trusting the authority of governing bodies within the church." Why do you trust your governing bodies? when they previously taught they had the authority to change the commandment, but now no longer make that boast.

@quayscenes

8 ай бұрын

@@YajunYuanSDA For the same reason the churches of Acts accepted the authority of the Jerusalem Council on circumcision. That is only one early example. But I am speaking of authority in general. So even as an SDA I assume you are not free to determine for yourself when to celebrate the Lord's Supper? So the question arises, how does one determine when and how often to celebrate the Lord's Supper?

@YajunYuanSDA

8 ай бұрын

@@quayscenes Do you consider the decision made in Acts 15 to be Ex-Cathedra (Peter alone)? or Ecumenical Council (Consensus of Overseers)? Is there anything in the OT that suggest circumcision was for people other than the biological descendants of Abraham? "So the question arises, how does one determine when and how often to celebrate the Lord's Supper?" In regards to how often, Apostle Paul said 'For *as often* as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes' (1 Corinthians 11:26). Even the Catholic Church accepts that because of no stated requirement you only "obligated" to do so once a year. In regards to when, it can be anytime. Even the Catholic Church acknowledges it can be done on any day of the week. But because it is a corporate activity it is best done on the corporate day of worship which is the Sabbath.

take that dan brown

People definitely need to know that writing in someone else's name was an accepted and common genre of the ancient world. They were not forgeries, but piously tried to put "true" things in the mouths of a holy representative. The Apostolic Constitutions from 380AD is a composite document of church orders, rules and liturgy that puts it all in the mouth of different apostles.. The apostles had nothing to do with it, however, the idea was putting together these old traditions and recording them, the spoken apostle as a mark of antiquity and authority. As Fr. Stephen said, the readers understood this genre. It was not meant to be a literal writing of the apostles.

One thing he also didn’t mention is that with the proto evangelium of James is that saints of the time refuted certain aspects of it, they never refuted specifically the story of her life up to the point of marriage to Joseph and they never refuted Joseph being an older man with kids and they never refuted her eternal virginity, they refute the details of the birth itself and the gnostic aspects. So if the document was entirely false the saints of the time would have refuted it whole sale. They affirm the aspects that the church to this day still holds and believes and denied the aspects of which were never believed. And this is only within 100 years or less of Mary’s life considering history tells us she died between 43-48 AD. There were many people who knew her personally and well that were still alive, as well as saints that knew the apostles.

@Gospel Simplicity @Austin think you can have @Fr. Stephen and @Gary Michuta on together for a dialog 1day please 🙏. GOD Bless you. Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷

"we've overcome the literacy problem, but there's still a lot that seems weird, or strange" if that doesn't sum up the 21st century, i don't know what does. looking forward to the rest of the discourse.

take THAT, Dan Brown! 😎

The first promulgated canon of the Bible was in 382 AD by Pope Damasus. It was upheld by multiple councils before the council of Trent. The council of Hippo in 393, the council of Carthage in 397, the council of Carthage in 417, the council Florence in 1442 all upheld the same canon of the Bible.

@olliew7225

2 ай бұрын

Yet Catholics were still debating the canon in the 16th century before the Council of Trent. 😅 According to Athanasius of Alexandria (AD 300-373): “There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament. But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit Athanasius, 39th Festal Letter

@alyciaoswald9776

2 ай бұрын

@@olliew7225 so one church father by himself means nothing. Also that comes from a Jewish historian named Josephus. His grouping of books was different which is why it doesn’t line up perfectly with either canon. We know that St. Jerome was commissioned by Pope Saint Damasus I to translate the Bible into Latin. The Pope orders him to include all of the books that had been in the Jewish Septuagint. He did so out of humility and obedience. We have papal documents from Pope Innocent, that affirmed this canon shortly afterward St. Jerome’s translation. Just because people dissent or challenge the canon at a council doesn’t mean that it wasn’t already set. The Church has not changed the canon.

@alyciaoswald9776

2 ай бұрын

Jesus and the Apostles actually referred to the deuterocanonical books in the New Testament. The Old Testament in their day was the Septuagint which contained the larger canon. Many of the church fathers referenced them in their own writings. The Dead Sea scrolls found actually showed that these books had been written on special scrolls meant only for the scriptures. The Jews did not set their canon until the late 2nd century at best. They were still debating long after that. That is when they decided to get rid of seven books.

Take that, Danny boy!

Take that, Dan Brown 😅

Take that Dan Brown.

take that, Dan Brown!

take that DAN BROWN !!

"But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read..." Athanasius: "Festal Letter 39" (c. 367 A.D.) “And in the Shepherd it is written (since they allege this book also, though it is not of the Canon ), 'First of all believe, that God is one, who created all things, and arranged them, and brought all things from nothing into being;” Athanasius De Decretis

@richardconlan6711

8 ай бұрын

The idea of canonical and non-canonical scriptures is not really something we have anymore. It's interesting. Today if something isn't canon, it isn't Scripture.

Take that Dan Brown!

Take that, Dan Brown! 😅

Take that, Dan Brown.

Take that Dan Brown

Take that Dan Brown!!!

The Orthodox approach to the canon is an important distinction! It seems that the ancient church had a sense of leniency (for lack of a better term) regarding deutero-canonical books. We touch on these distinctions in our episode on the canon and the Protestant doctrine of Scripture's self-authentication. Feel free to check it out!

@hamwithcheese586

4 ай бұрын

The church throughout history has had to clarify and or codify it’s teachings based on whatever heresy or controversy was causing issues among the faithful. The canon was codified as a result of various gnostic texts and false gospels being created to support heretical sects and movements. The canon was a response to this, and it was created to protect the souls of the faithful from confusion and heresy. Protestant ministers threw out the authority of the papacy and magisterium. Once you do that, you will start questioning everything, including the canon. Luther dealt with this by simply creating his own version of the Bible. His teachings on Sola Scriptura then replaced the authority of the magisterium when it came to the canon, and prevented his followers from questioning the canon any further.

@Mereosity

4 ай бұрын

We address some of these misconceptions of the historical development of the Christian canon in the episode mentioned above. God bless and thanks for your comment! @@hamwithcheese586

@olliew7225

2 ай бұрын

@@hamwithcheese586Luther didn’t create his own canon. His canon was the same as Athanasius’s and Jerome’s. His OT is the Hebrew Bible.

Perhaps the ultimate question is, which texts did the Holy Spirit inspire? Take that, Dan Brown

Everyone: "Take that, Dan Brown!" Me : "Hey Google, who is Dan Brown?" edit : oh, that guy😅

@GospelSimplicity

8 ай бұрын

😂

…take that Dan Brown…? I don’t know what I’ve allowed myself to be party to here…

Hi, i have a very personal question for you. I am orthodox and i dated a guy who was also orthodox but converted to protestant. We were very in love but could not make it work since we had different views on things. It breaks my heart because both of us really want to pray and come close through God but we had to break up because i am too stuck to mine and he too stuck to his. My heart is still broken, 3 months later. Do you have any thoughts on this? It so sad these differenties will cause a breakup even tho both love the same God so much

@LoriMooreThompson

2 ай бұрын

You both need to allow enough grace for the journey the other is on with the Lord. However that does not solve the question of where to worship.

Dan that Take Brown

actually they have found fragments of the book of Sirach amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls. Also I would be very wary of accepting anything that was proposed at Jamnia.

@dumbidols

9 ай бұрын

How do you know what was proposed at Jamnia?

@NavelOrangeGazer

6 ай бұрын

Jamnia has always just been cope for judaizers and crypto judaizers.

Have you looked at the Book of Jasper. Mentioned 2 times in the Old Testament 2samuel and joshua. In New Testament 2 Timothy 3:8 in reference with the names of two men

@olliew7225

2 ай бұрын

It has been lost. What we have now is a fake book of Jasper.

The Qumran calendar argument is eerily similar to KJV-onlyism

Take THAT dan brown

who in 125 was alive during the time of these events? 1:05:00

I have to admit, I hate when protesters call it the apocrypha when the biblical name is the deuterocanonical books versus the Protocanonical books

@doubtingthomas9117

8 ай бұрын

Or the “Ecclesial Books”

@YajunYuanSDA

8 ай бұрын

"when the biblical name is the deuterocanonical books" The bible never uses the terms protocanonical or deuterocanonial.

@Alexander-fr1kk

8 ай бұрын

@@YajunYuanSDA no and the word Bible isn’t used either . Man assigns names to things. WOW

@YajunYuanSDA

8 ай бұрын

@@Alexander-fr1kk Yes and so man has assigned the apocrypha to the books which are not canonical. The Church Fathers never assigned the term deuterocanonical to the the books you described. It is a modern cope word.

@Alexander-fr1kk

8 ай бұрын

@@YajunYuanSDA well, the church that Jesus Christ, founded and the church that Jesus Christ gave the power to bind and loose, canonized the Bible, and just because 1100 years later, one man came along and certain books did not conform to his wants and desires does not make it right did you know that he also removed revelation Hebrews Jude and Jamesbut had to put them back because of the outcry. You may want to do a little more research but God bless.

☦️☦️☦️

TTDB

"As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it also read these two Volumes (Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus) for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church." Jerome: "Commentary on Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus"

@atgred

8 ай бұрын

St. Jerome translated the Vulgate for the pope, at his request. And Jerome submitted to the pope’s authority, including the entire Deuterocanon along with the rest of Scripture. But in his prefaces for some of the books, he noted criticisms that either he, or Jewish friends of his, had against the Greek versions (since by this time the Jews exclusively used the Hebrew version, and rejected the Deuterocanon). For these prefaces, amongst other things, Rufinus attacked him, and Jerome responded. Jerome gets to his explaination of Daniel, and makes it clear that while he doesn’t like that the Catholic version is based on a heretic’s translation, he’s willing to submit to the “judgment of the churches”: “I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. I did not reply to their opinion in the Preface, because I was studying brevity, and feared that I should seem to he writing not a Preface but a book. I said therefore, “As to which this is not the time to enter into discussion.” […] Still, I wonder that a man should read the version of Theodotion the heretic and judaizer, and should scorn that of a Christian, simple and sinful though he may be.” The important thing, in the end, wasn’t whether the Jews used that version (they didn’t), or whether Jerome’s individual reasoning and experience lead him to that conclusion (it didn’t), or even what the standard Greek Septuagint said, but what the Church said. Understand that point, and the entire Deuterocanonical debate is settled. The Church closed the canon long before the Reformation, and no individual Christian (whether Jerome or Luther) has the authority to overrule Her Holy Spirit-protected judgment.

@adolphCat

8 ай бұрын

@@atgred Why was the Great Cardinal Cajetan unaware that the issue of the Canon was settled? How is it that Luther's opponent Cardinal Cajetan agreed with Luther concerning the Old Testament Canon? Was this respected Scholar anaware of what the Roman Catholic Church taught in his day? Could it not be that in the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's Day and that of Cardinal Cajetan this was seen as a legitimate dispute among Theologians as no Absolutely, difinitive decision on the Old Testament Canon had been pronounced in either the West or the East?

@bman5257

8 ай бұрын

Protestants be like: To figure out the canon, we should go to the Church Fathers, listen to Jerome, and not read anybody else. Plus Jerome doesn’t even have your canon, because he has deutero-Esther and deutero-Daniel.

@adolphCat

8 ай бұрын

@@bman5257 Have you even bothered to very what you say is the case or is it purely Bigotry and hatred for Protestants? Based on nothing at all, but mindless Hate? By the way it is dengerous to lump all Protestants together into one group as Confessional Lutherans and Anglicans have quite different views form American Evangelical Protestant Types.

@bman5257

8 ай бұрын

@@adolphCat I don’t hate Protestants I’m just saying that so many of them on the internet just cherry pick the Fathers. You can quote them 10 church fathers on a subject and they won’t care but if they pick one person apparently it’s proof.

Take that Dan Brown….😂

@GospelSimplicity

9 ай бұрын

This was such a fun experiment😂

Take that Dan Brown 😶

Who is this "EnIck" fellow he keeps mentioning? I know of EnOch! but I know no E-Nick.

Take that Dan Brown lol

Take that dan brown

In a strict sense, Trent only defines a certain list as Canonical and sacred, it does not necessarily say that ‘only’ these books are sacred. It also does not necessarily preclude a third category of books for private reading and edification.

The definition of "Apocrypha" that Fr. Stephen gives is very different than the definition that St. Jerome gave.

"Of these read the two and twenty books, but have nothing to do with the apocryphal writings. Study earnestly these only which we read openly in the Church. Far wiser and more pious than yourself were the Apostles, and the bishops of old time, the presidents of the Church who handed down these books. Being therefore a child of the Church, trench thou not upon its statutes. And of the Old Testament, as we have said, study the two and twenty books, which, if you are desirous of learning, strive to remember by name, as I recite them. For of the Law the books of Moses are the first five, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. And next, Joshua the son of Nave , and the book of Judges, including Ruth, counted as seventh. And of the other historical books, the first and second books of the Kings are among the Hebrews one book; also the third and fourth one book. And in like manner, the first and second of Chronicles are with them one book; and the first and second of Esdras are counted one. Esther is the twelfth book; and these are the Historical writings. But those which are written in verses are five, Job, and the book of Psalms, and Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs, which is the seventeenth book. And after these come the five Prophetic books: of the Twelve Prophets one book, of Isaiah one, of Jeremiah one, including Baruch and Lamentations and the Epistle ; then Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel, the twenty-second of the Old Testament. 36. Then of the New Testament there are the four Gospels only, for the rest have false titles and are mischievous. The Manichæans also wrote a Gospel according to Thomas, which being tinctured with the fragrance of the evangelic title corrupts the souls of the simple sort. Receive also the Acts of the Twelve Apostles; and in addition to these the seven Catholic Epistles of James, Peter, John, and Jude; and as a seal upon them all, and the last work of the disciples, the fourteen Epistles of Paul. But let all the rest be put aside in a secondary rank. And whatever books are not read in Churches, these read not even by yourself, as you have heard me say. Thus much of these subjects." Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lecture 4 "Of the Old Testament, therefore, first of all there have been handed down five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Then Jesus Nave, (Joshua the son of Nun), The Book of Judges together with Ruth; then four books of Kings (Reigns), which the Hebrews reckon two; the Book of Omissions, which is entitled the Book of Days (Chronicles), and two books of Ezra (Ezra and Nehemiah), which the Hebrews reckon one, and Esther; of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel; moreover of the twelve (minor) Prophets, one book; Job also and the Psalms of David, each one book. Solomon gave three books to the Churches, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Canticles. These comprise the books of the Old Testament. Of the New there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the Acts of the Apostles, written by Luke; fourteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, two of the Apostle Peter, one of James, brother of the Lord and Apostle, one of Jude, three of John, the Revelation of John. These are the books which the Fathers have comprised within the Canon, and from which they would have us deduce the proofs of our faith. 38. But it should be known that there are also other books which our fathers call not Canonical but Ecclesiastical: that is to say, Wisdom, called the Wisdom of Solomon, and another Wisdom, called the Wisdom of the Son of Syrach, which last-mentioned the Latins called by the general title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book, but the character of the writing. To the same class belong the Book of Tobit, and the Book of Judith, and the Books of the Maccabees. In the New Testament the little book which is called the Book of the Pastor of Hermas, [and that] which is called The Two Ways, or the Judgment of Peter; all of which they would have read in the Churches, but not appealed to for the confirmation of doctrine. The other writings they have named Apocrypha. These they would not have read in the Churches. These are the traditions which the Fathers have handed down to us, which, as I said, I have thought it opportune to set forth in this place, for the instruction of those who are being taught the first elements of the Church and of the Faith, that they may know from what fountains of the Word of God their draughts must be taken." Rufinus Commentary on the Apostle's Creed"

Lol. Judaism had their own Old Calendarists.

The Book of Sirach: ‘the eyes of the evil man are distant and perplexed’.

🎀🐒 𝓉𝕒𝐊𝐄 丅𝔥ａ几 ᗪ𝕒𝓃 𝐁𝐑ｏ𝕨𝓃 🐤👹

What's on his nose?