Thanks for the heads up on Vol II of Toguchi's book. BTW, it is available from Century Martial Arts for $9.99.

I've started to come around with bunkai and kata recently. See, I competed in Muay Thai for nearly a decade, and that's my original base (that and wrestling). I use to think of bunkai as kind of a "oh yeah because someone is going to attack you and react JUST like that holding their arm out stiff, which I've never seen happen in any of my fights". Now, I can see it better. They aren't training a catalogue of moves you remember to pull out in specific situations. I relate it to the steps that I took as a competitive fighter to ingrain any technique or strategy or tactic into my fights. 1. You learn the move or idea or whatever. 2. You drill it repeatedly through impact training and sparring drills. 3. You use it successfully in live sparring. I think kata and bunkai are very similar and should be used similarly. You should learn the kata (the first step). Then you practice bunkai, as well as step kumite, impact training, and live sparring drills (second step). Then you incorporate the idea and movements into live sparring spontaneously. I think too many karateka only practice step 1 and part of step 2. They don't do live sparring drills with the movements and ideas, and very often won't even think about using them in live sparring (at best they switch to a style that only uses punches and kicks). I often wonder why the Okinawan karateka don't use things like clinch sparring and takedown drills. Why don't they do sparring drills up against a padded wall, going for strikes and takedowns? Why don't they practice full sparring with takedowns and clinch? I get there are strikes you can't practice in those situations (I don't want an Uechi practitioners finger in my eye) but you can substitute it. In Muay Thai I would never elbow hard or knee hard against my training partners. It didn't stop me from throwing them hard in a fight.

@AyeJordan7

Жыл бұрын

Look up Iain Abernathy

@lymiewilson44

2 ай бұрын

You sound like a man with excellent experience. Your students are lucky to have you. OSU

@jodanmawashi

Ай бұрын

Agreed

You should do a big collaboration with Jesse Enkamp and Iain Abernathy on bunkai!

Toguchi taught someone I worked with many decades ago when he was a marine. They went to a bar together, and Toguchi thought it was a really rough part of town for that crowd. When a fight started he said "Hal, time to do karate. Please, take a sanchin stance and breathe." Toguchi picked Hal up, then deposited him outside the bar and went back in. Hal only learned Sanchin and one other kata, because Toguchi told him that a new kata is only justified when all others have been exhausted in meaning or applicability. Hal was in his middle sixties when I met him and he was still only doing two kata. Quite an inspiration.

@waaagh3203

2 жыл бұрын

I think there is a lot to say about depth over breadth. I think it's pretty cool he's still doing only 2 kata. I have a good friend who is a kung fu practitioner. They have like 100 forms (30 or so are weapons forms) in their curriculum. I asked him how he can try and learn all those forms. He told me he won't. Only the grandmaster knows all the forms, and that's because he has to know them to preserve the lineage. He said he may learn 8 empty hand forms, and only really train 3 to depth. The reason there are 100 forms is because each form is like it's own style. Each person is different. One person might specialize in a tiger style and train the tiger style broadswords. Another may do the buddha palm form because it fits their strengths and weaknesses. Then they specialize in those very few forms and base their fighting style on it. It actually kind of amazed me that despite having so many forms in their style, they specialize in so very few that are suited to them personally. It's the role of their instructor to work with them and find the forms that best suit them. It's kind of a cool concept imo. They were also one of the few Kung Fu schools I've seen REALLY bring their style into their sanda/sanshou practice, which is cool to me, where they sparred full contact. Anyway, my point is that focusing on depth in kata is something many karateka could learn from.

There is instinctual training in kata/taolu. This is not often known or understood. I got lucky with the right teachers. They saw i didnt just enjoy doing kata/taolu. But i saw them for what they were. So bit by bit i was taught to put the internal triggers in. Training this way as my shifu would say "in fight your form come out." You create a my will be done mindset. A good example is how to use breadth as a pneumonic trigger and using the four sensations to issue max force when needed. There are more principles. But once you have applied these principles your form slowly disappears and you begin to become formless and adaptable.

Ah, so nice to find another Gōjū Ryū researcher! 😍 Subscribed immediately, great channel man!

Great Video. Thanks for the Toguchi references. I have both of those books and i'm surprised at how little i absorbed from the first reading of each book, your video has me revisting them again, and no doubt learning more.

I want to thank you for your hard work researching and sharing all the wonderful information you come across regarding Goju Ryu. I am a scholar (San-Dan) of the arts, namely a Shinjitsu Jissen Karate student (A hybrid system created by the late Grand Master Reno Morales) this system is predominately Shotokan based and leaves no stone unturned, incorporating the original throws, joint locks, vital targets and the mentality of continuous flow among other attributes. I have maintain a long journey of researching and unlocking information regarding origins, influences, nature, bunkai and tui-te. In addition original and modern techniques are examined to conclude omission or addition. In closing I will like to ask you if you can please put a video on the original forms that included or were used for internal development by means of breathing Kata or sequences. It seems that over my discussions with GM Reno Morales, he explained many of the teachers today have inherited the wrongs techniques or have been doing them wrong, hence the health improvement aspect is hindered. My own research points to the same conclusion. Many karate masters do not live past 75 years of age or die of common deceases, such as high blood pressure and its complications. I would love to hear from you. OSU!!

@JeremyRoyaux

3 жыл бұрын

sport or martial arts practice in only one of many things determining your health. There is no reason to think that karate would radically change the life expectation... It just doesnt work like that

@urayo1

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your quick response. I agree with you on other factors playing a role on your health.However, my point was in comparison to seriously dedicated internal Kung Fu stylist which tend to practice more intact or rather much less altered softer version of the forms which allows for “CHI” development in the navel area. It is a fact that, Scholars of the three major internal arts of Kung Fu, tend to live healthier and longer lives than hard styles ( Kung Fu or Karate ) while keeping their elasticity late into their age. I have studied the arts for over 40 years and I can tell you with great certainty, that karate was handed down incomplete, altered and breathing forms lost their purpose and meaning when passed down. Karate has been part of my life journey for a very long time and it took me a long time to get many answers to my questions. I wish you well in your quest, humbly CS 3rd Dan Shinjitsu Jissen Karate, 1st Dan Five Virtues Aikido NYC , Law Enforcement Tactical instructor.

Great Review and Interpretations, specially noting and expanding on the proverbial principles specially the Primary one: A BLOCK THATS NOT A BLOCK; A PUNCH THATS NOT A PUNCH. Your explanations match and reflect TOGUCHI Sensei teachings of Practical Applicability of techniques and that execution depends on existing conditions that may change in the fly causing adjustments for different ground, opponents, actions and Reactions, distances and effectiveness or lack there off of the last technique. Oneigashimasu

amazing vidéo. I just discovered your channel !

Highly interesting! I haven't done Karate in years. I do TaiJI these days, but I watch videos like this because TaiJi also needs interpretation, and some of the same principles of unlocking the meaning in the form should carry over. One thing Karate and TaiJi have in common is that many practitioners think that they are long range styles, when in reality they were developed to be used in the grappling range.

Good video. I should get the book. Many of my personal beliefs around kata are pretty much in line with what is outlined in this video.

Yes of course all katas are really very good But specialy My favourite Goju-Ryu Karate Kata is Seisan. You have got a great knowledge which helps us all a lot 👍 Superb 🙏 Arigato SENSEI

Thrilling😮

Thankyou for great clip. Also worth considering 1) that 180° turns can signal an escape/release and subsequent counter 2) that both the outside AND inside of legs and arms be considered for possible applications of hyomengi 3) that individual techniques (tactics)be a)consistent with mother system's primary strategy b)interpreted within structural segments/sequences Really opens up the possibilities

I think you assume that there was a ‘substantial’ period of time during which Goju was a completely ‘fixed’ style. I’m not convinced there was. Higaonna Morio (the only Goju master I’ve personally trained under) claims to have spent most of his life trying to return Goju back to an ‘original form’ I’m not sure he’s managed that. I’m also not sure about the value (certainly for me personally) of the quest, attempting to recreate one man’s version of the way he interpreted all of his own influences. I like kata, I’m a former kata champion, but at the stage when we are endlessly fishing around for some kind of practical application for every movement I think we miss the animist origin of some of the movements. If you want to learn how to handle yourself in a ‘real fight’ then kata bunkai is a seriously long winded way of doing it. I’ve lived in rough areas and had ‘real fights’, the things I feel stood me in best stead to have won those (which I did) was the endless full contact fighting I did in Kyokushin plus heavy hand conditioning I did in Goju and Kyokushin. Has your Karate been tested in ‘real flights’ (sorry for the endless inverted commas!) much? Best regards

@GojuRyuPhilosopher

3 жыл бұрын

Fortunately, I've never been in street fights or self-defense situations that couldn't be solved with verbal skills, but I have been doing quite a bit of full and semi-full contact sparring with people who trained other arts in order to sift the bs out from my training. And I wouldn't say that Goju was ever a fixed style, nor is any style a fixed style (unless it's in the process of becoming obsolete), but the kata had to start somewhere. Maybe not an 'original Goju', but at least an interpretation that isn't removed from the reality of fighting quite so far as it is today. As I mentioned in another response as well, I'm an academic at heart so I enjoy the challenge of trying to interpret things from limited historical data. So researching the origins of kata is interesting to me even if it weren't a practical pursuit (although I do think that it can be if done sensibly). I just have to present it a certain way because this is KZread, not my dissertation.

@Samlaren

3 жыл бұрын

I competed in Kumite in the '90s on a national level (also in Jujutsu, but that is an other story), and in the few "real" fights I had I must say that 1-punch-KO was more the norm than the silly jumping around I did in kumite matches. Standing still, waiting for the attack and responding to that was much more effective. But then again, I never fought others that trained for 15+ years as I done at the time. Oddly enough, since I stopped practicing martial arts (I was in a severe accident and I am partly handicapped in my left leg) I have never been in a fight. I can see how picking a certain movment from bunkai, drilling that over and over can be effective. Even if some bunkai are wishful thinking :)

@darrenelliottfrancis

3 жыл бұрын

@@GojuRyuPhilosopher I certainly don’t think one should go looking for street fights to test oneself and I also don’t think that just because one hasn’t had a real no-rules fight one would automatically be less effective in one, after all Morio Higaonna says he has never had a ‘real fight’ (though he has severely damaged challengers in his dojo). I understand that it’s interesting to try to reverse-fit the movements to fighting applications, though in some situations I think a movement really is just derived from someone invoking the spirit of a bird in an animist/shamanistic manner. I recall the first time a fragment of kihon worked in an ‘involuntary’ manner in free sparring, perfectly executed defence without any conscious decision to apply the technique, I think I’d been training for about 5 years at that point. It hinted a what real master might be able to achieve.

Awesome 👍👍👌👌🙏🙏🥊🥊🥋🥋

Methinks that some of those 'rules' aren't written in stone, but rather are decent guidelines to consider; for instance, some folk have hard & strong enough fists to strike various parts - or any part - of a skull without problems while others aren't so fortunate (so the tough guys can ignore some or all of the hard-on-hard 'rule').

Great analysis ! Who is your Sensei ? You have a very astute understanding .

Great video. Must have same goju lineage.

@chrismerritt571

3 жыл бұрын

Good explanation of kiso kumite.

15:28 "The original partner drills were lost". Toguchi was about 37 when Miyagi died, and he learned just about every kata Miyagi taught before the war (except Suparinpei and Gekisai-katas), wouldn't he have learned the original partner drills from Miyagi? Or where they lost before Miyagi? The early history of karate has too many plotholes 😂 I mean, why would Miyagi add katas to Goju that he didn't learn from Higaonna if he didn't know the application? Like Seyunchin and Shisochin. And why did many of his students interpretate the Bunkai different? Yagi, Miyazato and Toguchi had very different approach to some Bunkai. It was almost like some parts were lost from Goju Ryu even before it was named "Goju". My brain hurts!

@darrenelliottfrancis

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with your sentiments

@GojuRyuPhilosopher

3 жыл бұрын

The origins of kata as two man partnered drills were 'lost' through attrition prior even to the ones Higaonna learned, in that Higaonna's teachers likely didn't directly teach them as two person drills, but as solo forms first. What Toguchi is discussing is the origin of the katas, which is theoretically some time in the more or less distant past. According to Toguchi as well, this theory came from Miyagi, so it's likely that he analyzed the katas that he added to Goju to determine if they were worth adding (and he may have also created some of those katas out of other extant katas at the time as syntheses of their ideas). We don't actually know how long ago most of the "koryu kata" were created, though for some like Sanchin and Sanseiru, we can make educated guesses based on the known history of the Chinese arts they appear in, but suffice it to say that they've been taught as solo forms first since well before they made it to Okinawa. I personally see kata interpretation as being a type of historiography. We're trying to reconstruct the application based on the limited amount of evidence that survived, which has to be interpretive by necessity. And honestly, even if it's not an efficient way of learning fighting skills, it is an incredibly interesting academic challenge, and at my heart I'm an academic first.

@Samlaren

3 жыл бұрын

@@GojuRyuPhilosopher You are a smart dude!

@ambulocetusnatans

3 жыл бұрын

Let's also remember that there's a bit of sociology at play here too. The Chinese taught the Okinawans, but since they weren't Chinese maybe they didn't teach them "everything". The Okinawans taught the Japanese, but they weren't Okinawan, so they didn't teach them everything. The Japanese taught the Koreans and the Americans, but they didn't teach them everything. It's a bit like the game of telephone, hence the old saying, "the further from the source, the muddier the stream"

Here is an interesting observation for goju ryu kata. All movement where you are stepping without circle stepping is for striking. All movement with circle stepping is with blocking and never striking. The big question is why.

@bpindermoss

Жыл бұрын

Just a thought, but the circle step, or sanchin step as we call it in our dojo, is effective at guarding the groin with the knees. It also provides an opportunity get one of your legs behind that of your opponent.

The hops are in the Chinte kata. They are bone breakers, not odd hops to return to the starting point.

Very good. My advice now is to start studying the Taira Masaji's history and insights. He is the founder of the Okinawa Goju ryu kenkyu kai and perhaps the greatest expert on kata bunkai applications. He makes them work! He studied under Miyazato Eiichi sensei untill his death. During his life he's been subjected to wrestling and have had to use karate as part of his work. This helped his genius and extraordinary abilities to understand how to link different techniques during a fight and how to make them as fast and powerfully as possible. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to get the practice if you're not guided by an expert (there is nothing like that out there to guide you by you're own, even if you are an Okinawa Goju ryu practitioner), however, have the trip! You won't regret it.

i wish shotokan guys knew this.

I very much enjoyed your video. But you have missed one important aspect of Kata practice. POWER generation. All of the Goku Kata not only contains self defence and movement but there is a whole curriculum inside the Kata that demonstrates power generation the Goju way. It is hidden in plain sight.

Do you use the word obfuscation in common parlance?

I’ve got a stack of those. $5 ea. didn’t know you were Shoreikan

I have a question please: What is the meaning of a slow movement in kata? Like the uchi uke in gekisai dai ichi?

@davidacobb1

3 жыл бұрын

In the Meibukan system we were/are taught that these are moves that require not just focused movement, but also breath. When also practised in this manner under pressure (obviously not so slowly) your "attacker" will find it quite difficult to finish his/her technique. While, not a Meibukan instructor, Yoshio Kuba is probably one of the best I've seen, on KZread, showing, mostly, realistic bunkai/oyo. His vids are all in Japanese without subtitles but he demonstrates quite clearly what he is doing.

@shoshinway8366

3 жыл бұрын

First of all.: * It is NOT because the technique is being taught / demonstrated slowly / smoothly in the form (* Kata) that it will be so in the application; understanding that already takes us out of MANY mistakes. * There, in Kata, we are being taught, mainly and above any technique, PRINCIPLES! The demonstrated / taught technique, in turn, is a means of teaching us these principles. In our specific case, the Kata are giving us the principle of effort; these techniques being "slow" (, • most of the times executed with a stronger breath [Ibuki] •), informing us and teaching that, in the application, we will face a certain resistance; that is, an effort more. Ours or the opponent's. This resistance being, is, demonstrated / illustrated in Kata by "slowness"; which is pointing out, in principle, that that technique may / will demand greater effort in its application. In theory: these techniques will be: - Joint manipulation; - A more 'stuck' situation, before or during the technique; - Suffocation techniques. .. Basically that.

@peterh4446

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the insightful replies. In Goju Ryu (traditional Jundokan) these slow moves appear in a portion of kata just prior to a rapid combination of kick, elbow strike, back fist, etc. I’ve given this careful thought over years and believe the slow movement represents blinding speed of contact, control, defeat in one extremely rapid movement. Any thoughts about this please?

@johnpjones1775

3 жыл бұрын

I think the different pacing in a kata is primarily a stylistic choice...there's no reason to go slow in a fight.

"Several weird bunny hops" Why you gotta call out Shotokan's Chinte like that lmao.

I believe the moviment in Saifa is the same as puter kepala in Silat and also almost the whole application of Wanshu.

this is great. I've reached essentially the same place by reading Kenwa Mabuni and Choki Motobu. Mabuni agrees on most of the points you've made here. However, Mabuni seems to differ in that 1) he sees a block as a block and 2) if the block is made advancing in the kata, you should retreat in the bunkai. Also, he makes a point that where the kata supplies a block but no counter, you provide the counter from those you have been taught in the bunkai. Thows and locks and such are not found so much in the kata itself as in the bunkai where they were taught 'orally', according to Itosu. Small points of difference, though. The key point is that, as you say, you should realistically test your bunkai. Sadly, many karateka don't do that.

@dammitjim9131

3 жыл бұрын

What book by Kenwa Mabuni are you referring to? Is it in English. Would appreciate the info. Thanks!

@haffoc

3 жыл бұрын

@@dammitjim9131 It's in Spanish translation as "Invitacion al Karate-Do." www.amazon.com/Invitaci%C3%B3n-karate-do-Karate-Nyu-Mon/dp/8478132392/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=kenwa+mabuni&qid=1610822919&sr=8-5

@AyeJordan7

3 жыл бұрын

I have to disagree,Locks,joints,strangles and throws can be found within Kata as Gichin Fanakashi said,another thing is there are many applications when it comes to it,but in order to find them easy u have to close the distance,as Motobu Choki said Kata is grappling with your opponent and striking,the reason why u don’t see them doing it and practicing blocks is because that type of real karate was fading away,the new style Japanese was spreading all over the world,the only thing they left was there knowledge on how to make it effective

@dammitjim9131

3 жыл бұрын

@@haffoc Thanks. ah ... looks so cool. Too bad no espanol

👍

8:11 *Chinte has entered the chat*

7:41 oh, man just name the style, Shotokan!

@dammitjim9131

3 жыл бұрын

Chill. He probably doesn't want to be disrespectful.

@burningreaper333

3 жыл бұрын

Yes that would be Chinte, from my understanding it was just added for compilations (to make it look better). LOL

While I do agree that your "attacker" when doing Kata is in front of you, I think it is good to practise the turning movements as if an attack was coming from that direction. The opening step in the Gekisai Kata would be a good example. It is a straight step(not a C step) forward before you pivot to the left and Jodan Age Uke. If the attack is coming from the side, the C step would not get you off line from the attack like the straight step does. Also, I've seen students attempt to C step and it takes them (slightly) to the right. This puts them out of danger, but also too far away to respond effectively. The straight step takes you off line but puts you in the optimal position to use the Jodan Age Uke in an offensive manner. I do have issues with some of the 2 man drills that are taught today, in that certain Kata movements are sacrificed for similar movements in order to make things flow more seamlessly. When this becomes the accepted bunkai/oyo then the possibilities presented by the kata are lost to the practitioner that doesn't continually refer back to the Kata..

@AyeJordan7

3 жыл бұрын

The thing is a lot of these karate “blocks”would not work in reality,punches fly very fast in a street fight,so a Uke would not work(at least blocking)

I enjoy your discussion Goju P. However it is very easy to learn the applications. You simply need to find a master teacher and train until he has confidence to teach you. Keep going and he will teach you more deeply until it all makes sense. Most leave their teacher way to early in search of secrets which where there the whole time.

The technique at 9:18 in the Meibukan system of Goju is actually a punch down on the angle, followed by the "low block" as you step back.

@AyeJordan7

3 жыл бұрын

Not that practical of a application

@AyeJordan7

3 жыл бұрын

Plus there’s plenty of evidence that many of these moves are grappling and striking,manly close range stuff,but either close range or long range if it works good job if it dosnt then keep searching💯

ah yes nolej

@louisfornicola1128

3 жыл бұрын

That's very interesting ..opponents are always in front of you hmmm, and if there is more than one opponent you will make everyone of those opponents come from one location. BS

Dude Bad Ass info…