Great job editing our conversations! I think it represents our main points well. And the whiteboard animations make things much clearer - nice work!

@axbs4863

Жыл бұрын

Really loved the ways you guys bounced off the questions, amazing discussion! :D I mostly agreed with your point, but I'm wondering how Mehdi believed the charges pushed each other since you seemed to understand the point better. Would the charges not have a backwards force equal and opposite to the forwards "pushing" force, unless it has something to do with the density of the charges throughout the wire?

@josuel.9598

Жыл бұрын

Nice seeing you here :D

@NoName-zb9zd

Жыл бұрын

W

@peterm9893

Жыл бұрын

that doesn't entirely sound like it's coming from the heart, reading between the lines, seems like you wanted to say something like ... "where's all the great discussion we had, you cut out most of the intense bits and only left ones that dont look too bad" hahahaha .. just kidding (partly) .. you guys are both awesome after all and i learned a lot watching both of you.

@ke6gwf

Жыл бұрын

@@axbs4863 if the forces were equal and opposite, you would have no voltage difference or current flow. Potential is by definition, unequal and unbalanced, which causes movement.

I like that you both understood the question better by your discussion.

@JustPyroYT

Жыл бұрын

​@Don't Read My Profile Photo Ok. I wont do that.

@Captain_Pikachu

Жыл бұрын

Wtf 9 hours ago?

@candle_eatist

Жыл бұрын

wtf lol are you a friend of medhi or something

@mimireich

Жыл бұрын

@@Captain_Pikachu Patreon supporters got early access

@ArbitraryConstant

Жыл бұрын

@@candle_eatist patreon :)

ElectroBOOM just gave us a master class in how to conduct yourself as a scientist as well as a person. He wasn’t afraid to admit when he was wrong, was open to ideas that seemed to contradict his own, but also stuck to his guns and was able to incorporate the new ideas to agree with his already established ones.

@climatebell

4 ай бұрын

It was as you say, a master class interaction and I loved it. As to the topic, I've got degrees in both physics and also EE (semiconductor focus) and in my opinion it is still worthwhile to explore some of the basics in areas such as what they discussed as there are likely flaws in some commonly held views on how things really work. If more scientists would approach a debate such as these two, humanity could progress much faster.

@toxic_narcissist

2 ай бұрын

It is expected from a scientist though

@prestonburton8504

2 ай бұрын

Amen, how real science is done! i grew up with the same notion that electroboom had (and had to suffer the period where our instructors changed to positive hole carriers instead of electron flow or negative flow- i thought that was stupid and constantly battling young engineers that grew up during that period!)

@madarah8533

Ай бұрын

​@@toxic_narcissistneither of them are scientists tho. Neither of them have published any papers. They're science communicators

@daveinpublic

11 күн бұрын

Derek didn’t contribute much to the thought process, he just read 1 paragraph he saw in a textbook. That’s what he based his video on, and that’s what he read now. No analysis, really. And then he wrote to the author of the book for more info 😂😂 and the author didn’t explain beyond saying that ‘clearly’ they don’t move. Something seems off w veretasiums analysis or lack thereof. Electroboom, in the future I would talk to the primary source for more info, find a scientist, wouldn’t be hard. Otherwise you may find yourself in a loop w Derek greater than the one in the experiment.

The amount of respect you show Derek is really admirable, it is so easy for people (me included) to reject ideas that contradict our views. Props to you for looking into this with genuine interest

@enzi.

Жыл бұрын

watashi wa Kira Yoshikage

@pochopmartin

Жыл бұрын

While I agree with you I think it's a really sad sign of our times that mutual respect amongst educated people seeking truth invoked great respect instead of it just being the default expectation.

@pauliexcluded1

8 ай бұрын

Well Derek IS falling into a trap and he is wrong wrong wrong about that surface charge distribution. But that is no call for disrespect. The man is brilliant. I just happen to know better because this is a trap I fell into myself, and have put a lot of thought into how to effectively teach because it is a common mistake arising from how we teach electrostatics.

@Tanimation_

8 ай бұрын

​@@pauliexcluded1right? He's completely wrong. But props to this guy for keeping things cool.

@pauliexcluded1

8 ай бұрын

@@Tanimation_actually….I am pulling my explanations right now….I am….now almost 100% convinced that I was WRONG😅…. I am about to learn something fundamental from Derik that I can’t believe I didn’t know…I think there can only be a charge gradient on the surface….I think he is right!

Great discussion!

@choasisgoated

Жыл бұрын

The goats of electronics keysight

@muhammadjalal2335

Жыл бұрын

Suppppp buddy ❤️

@wyattr7982

Жыл бұрын

Im watching this while testing battery packs assemblies with your EL33133 DC electronic load, its my favorite piece of equipment in the lab

@kaylatorres6098

Жыл бұрын

@Keysight labs Hello electroboom always talks about you and your products 😊

@Barnaclebeard

Жыл бұрын

Can I have his scope?

The issue with those kinds of questions, is that they are overly simplified. Which always leads to endless discussions. The discussion perfectly shows that as well.

@termitori

Жыл бұрын

quantum field perspective and understanding is more precise and subtle.

@ganon8835

Жыл бұрын

you're replying to a bot

@DronesClubMember13

Жыл бұрын

This is always a break point with scientists and engineers as well. Electroboom has done this in the past where he uses more simplified equations because for general use, they work. Scientists want everyone to use diffy q's to find the exact answer. Great but we don't have time for that on a project. We use simplified equations because on macroscale, it works.

@Games_and_Music

Жыл бұрын

@@ganon8835 I was gonna say, i literally just reported the bot and then i read ice bread's response to it as if it is an actual person or it making an actual point. Then again, i didn't click on the link, as i refuse to click links without proper context as they're _almost_ always some scam or lame unrelated video. (as i found out in the past when it was new). So idk, either ice bread is a bot as well, or just didn't pay attention and probably also did not click the link, unless the link was actually relevant, then the commenter just did a poor job at communicating it, because saying "finally it is here" is exactly what bots say. EDIT: well, there's more bots than users at this point... _ELON?!_

@icebread9335

Жыл бұрын

was about to say the same, i totally agree Enthustic people are no specialists Heck even specialists have no answer that is 100% right Just look at the equation, do the math, and thats the end Math is way nore precise than any words can be

Probably a whole lot of us older nerds remember literally being taught to think of the wire as a tube full of ping pong balls (or marbles) pushing each other through a tube. I'm sure at least a couple of our teachers understood this as a *model* through which to visualize the process, but lots of them and us (including me back then, I'm positive) took it as an actual description of what the electrons were doing. Kind of how most people believe atoms are tiny spheres with tinier spheres rotating around them.

@ronald3836

4 ай бұрын

I see it more as the ("positive") holes between the (negative) balls propagating through the wire (in the correction direction, from positive to negative).

@ronald3836

4 ай бұрын

Of course the reason that positively and negatively charged particles push and pull on each other in the first place is the existence of the electromagnetic field. Or rather, these forces are described by the electricomagnetic field equations.

@ablazedguy

3 ай бұрын

There's no such thing as actual explanation of what electrons do. Science builds a model, the model needs to fit experimental results, no definitive link to "the fabric of the universe"

It's important to distinguish high frequency current from DC current. It's the high frequency field current (coming from the switch action) that flows on the surface of the wire (skin depth phenomenon) and propagates through air on a shortcut to the light bulb. This is why a smaller potential is seen first before the DC field current makes its way around through the bulk of the wire.

@carultch

4 ай бұрын

This is also why there is a different effective resistance of wires for AC than there is for DC. For DC in the steady state, the current density flows uniformly through the wire, and you can determine the resistance, just from extrapolating material resistivity, using the definition of resistivity to adapt to the conductor size. For AC, there is a concentration of current on the outside due to the skin effect, such that for wires that are about 50 mm^2 [#1/0 AWG] and larger, there is slightly more effective resistance for AC circuits than DC circuits using the same wire.

I really love how one video by Veritasium triggered this whole peer review and productive discussion process. Especially because we, the audience, normally aren't shown that incredibly important part of science. Being wrong, or just being misunderstood, and needing to elaborate. Discuss with fellow scientists, come to new conclusions, and be able to explain better than before. All we are usually presented are the conclusions that remain at the end of this process. Not this time. Veritasium, Electroboom, Steve Mould, and all the others made this so much better than just explaining a physics problem, by showing us how scientists interact with each other. Thank you!

@CoreStarter

Жыл бұрын

No, all this taught us is that a bunch of engineers (even people with masters in EE) learned a incredibly simplified model of how electricity works, and because it always works in the day to day things they assume it is the entire answer, Steve and medhi both stepped into a conversation they both were vastly uninformed about, the stuff Derek is talking about isn't some hare brained shit he pulled out of his ass, it is the _accepted_ way electricity works within the physics community, just because Derek made some missteps in presenting the info doesn't make him wrong.

@robins7357

Жыл бұрын

@@CoreStarter Ok, but that's more or less what I wanted to say. I never intended to say Derek is wrong, I just wanted to say: We rarely see the process of how scientists further each others knowledge. Sorry if I didn't make this clear. And thanks for the answer ;)

@dieSpinnt

Жыл бұрын

@@robins7357 If this is how you think the scientific method and peer review works ... **facepalm** Please read about it, maybe as a starting point just about the terms on Wikipedia. Friend ... it is so easy, we have Internet!:) (Hey ... studying the basics, before making assumptions out of the blue, is also a very important part:)) )

@robins7357

Жыл бұрын

@@dieSpinnt I'm aware that actual scientific peer review works differently, that's not the point I was trying to make. I didn't want to say this = peer review, I wanted to say we see criticism that is addressed in a productive way, which is rarely shown on youtube, and it's similar to peer review in that different people try to constructively criticise the work someone has done, with them in turn getting the chance to up the quality of their work because of it. Sorry I didn't make this more clear, but english isn't my first language and sometimes finding the right words is complicated. (Awesome user name btw, fan of the character :) )

@dieSpinnt

Жыл бұрын

@@robins7357 That's a absolute valid point. Oh and excuse my "Robin-Review", that wasn't nice or valid either:P Important is to use the right tool for the right job. As described by Corestarter, there are several levels of "insight". SRT won't help wenn building a house. Kirchhoff is good for day to day electronics and bad for driving a myon detector. BTW I am sad to say that "Jadzia Dax" (the one with "a") is dead.... :(

While getting my undergrad in EE i was always conflicted by these questions. Then when i started making semiconductors(TFTs) it just clicked. Conductivity is determined by either electron density or electron mobility. The electric fields are what is providing the work. Moving electrons create more fields which increase the fields hence why we have propogation delay in signals. High electron mobility means the electrons can follow the fields longer before crashing which means higher conductivity.

@khatharrmalkavian3306

Жыл бұрын

Yes!

@harikrishnankannoth9702

Жыл бұрын

Can you please simplify and just say who is right and upto what extent??😅

@shridharambady2069

Жыл бұрын

Yes! I've been working with semiconductors recently too and studying the actual Fermi levels and statistics of various materials and material boundaries makes things so much clearer.

@jmarriottc

Жыл бұрын

I think you got it, so batteries are just wave generators and conductors are the just different mediums for that wave to propagate.

@forrestphillips6035

Жыл бұрын

Not really sure what you're saying about moving electrons creating more fields causing propagation delay (eddy currents? Inductive phase shifting?) But I have a question that is irrelevant. I'm actually working to finish my undergrad in EE. Four classes to finish, but I had a spinal cord injury so I can't move anything below my shoulders really now. I was thinking power would be a good field for me, I'm just curious about semiconductor manufacturing. Would I need to use my hands for that? What about graduate degrees? I'm trying to figure out the best way to go so that I can do engineering work solely on computers.

Amazing discussion. I loved the way you both compliment each other. I’m learning both electricity and how to respect each other. Kudos

Derek`s explanation of currents flowing over wires much reminds me of how currents flow through our bodies: by subtle disturbances of the charges around a membrane. It`s as if in our bodies the inside of the wires, being electrically neutral, serve other cellular functions, thus making for much better use of space and allowing for "intelligent wires" which change their properties based on how cell membrane and other changes induce changes in the ambient surrounding the membrane and the membrane properties.

@FuburLuck

3 ай бұрын

Except nerve conduction is done by the flow of ions through channels. Not by some field with unmoving particles like Derek claims.

very interesting discussion! 👏 looking forward to see your test!

@shinsoku9128

Жыл бұрын

hey man. why tf are you here. I love you channel btw bro. keep it up!

@smokejc

Жыл бұрын

@@shinsoku9128 generic boring reply to a popular youtube channel's comment. why wouldn't he be here?

@JohnDoe-jk2do

Жыл бұрын

@@smokejc why would he be here

@shinsoku9128

Жыл бұрын

@@smokejc ? Do you even know his channel? He does 3d printing stuff. So why would he be here watching mehdi?

@camrouxbg

Жыл бұрын

@@shinsoku9128 you know that people are allowed to be interested in different things, right? I don't understand this idea that someone with a 3D printing channel cannot watch a channel about electronics. Myself, I'm interested in electronics, mathematics, physics, painting, comedy, home improvement, and much more. If you saw my list of subscribed channels, you'd know the different things I like, but certainly one doesn't preclude me from enjoying another.

An amazing conversation, and the editing adds a lot of context someone might need to fully understand it. Great video!

@michelleper5065

Жыл бұрын

Lol 100K views in few hours, Stunning what he created on here, just stunning, If he only talked deeper into the electro magnetic world he would have a cult following, guess he doesn't need that headache Lol

You guys are awesome 😁 It's really nice to see a polite and honest conversation.

16:11 i think a helpful analogy for the surfaces charges applying the force that moves all of electrons is one of those “bladeless” fans. those fans work with a fan in its base speeding up air. this moving air is then ducted into a ring. due to the viscous affects, the air that originated from the base fan imparts its energy to the static air inside the ring. this means that a small amount of faster moving air from the ring results in all the air moving at a slower rate. the most of the air is static until viscous forces move it. this is like the charges inside the wire. they do not have net movement on their own but with the surfaces charges they do move. and based on the book these inner charges make up a majority of the current. just like in the fan the originally static air has more mass than the fast air from fan in the base. also the air from the fan does also move like the surfaces charges

@evertonptube

3 ай бұрын

That's a great analogy! (TLDR at the end) Towards the end of the video, and before reading your comment I was thinking of the water pipe pressure/flow (voltage/current) analogy and came up with a simple modifier to it: -Imagine the same water pipe pressure/flow idea, but consider that the pipe is 1m (3ft) in diameter and the pipe inlet/outlets to battery/load are only 1cm (3/8"). This would explain how without 'pressure' there's no voltage, and that 'water' (electrons) coming into the pipe, nothing can leave, but they will move at a VERY SLOW rate. As AlphaPhoenix measured here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/pIV9yZeRlazNgZM.htmlsi=sECQJgL35hNRfMf5&t=162 only 1 part per quadrillion of the wire's electrons are being moved to charge 28m of wire to 1.5V, and putting the two pieces of info together it seems that, indeed, "electrons MUST push each other to carry a current" while also seemingly NOT MOVING, but that's just because there are sooooooooo many more electrons in the wire that their movement is negligible. TLDR; Neither idea is wrong because there are soooooooo many electrons in the wires, so that that only about 0.0000000001% of them need to enter/leave the wire in order for current to flow. So yes, electrons push each other, but there are so many that they overall move veeeery slowly.

This has been one of my favorite KZread “dramas” to follow. Amazing conversations and perspectives from many parties. I studied conventional and electron theory in college but I feel like I have learned a whole lot more from this “series”. I love it.

@heyoitskram5748

Жыл бұрын

This is the only drama I want to see.

@BlokeOzzie

Жыл бұрын

I really wish the vast majority of KZread was this, rather than 99% mind-numbing dreck.

@TriThom50

Жыл бұрын

Are you calling conventional electro booms view and Derek’s view the electron theory? Because I’m not sure what you mean by those terms?

@ThaScruffShop

Жыл бұрын

@@TriThom50 No, this is outside of both of those theories. Electron theory suggests that energy is transmitted from the negative leads, and conventional suggests that the positive lead carries the energy. There’s a lot more to it than that but that’s the gist of it.

@TriThom50

Жыл бұрын

@@ThaScruffShop are you talking about with current in terms of which way the charges are actually flowing? Because that is something different than energy, and this video has nothing to do with that topic. I assume you are talking about something else, and that was never mentioned in my degree.

I appreciate that this is simply a humble discussion between you two. And that humbleness is what keeps me coming back Mehdi!

@yourt00bz

Жыл бұрын

In real life he is a prima donna . i Work as a cashier at a grocery store.... janes Franco copypasta

@ElectroBOOM. There is also another information you could add to your analysis. About electrons being able to push something, you may investigate the electromigration phenomena, where electrons transfer momentum to the ions present in very thin conductors (again, as you said, it depends on what do you call push).

Loved the colab! Way better than video/response. Good work, guys!

This is tremendously interesting and I love the more in-depth, nuanced electrical discussions. This video was edited very well and kept everything understandable, great visuals.

@georigie125

Жыл бұрын

N,NBnlB,znb,,,☆,¡》a,N,a,NN,n,nN,nnnNNNnnnNnnbNwN,nnnNBb

I have been following this discussion for a while now and it's nice to see the both of you reaching a unified outcome. It's all about education! My Grandfather use to always say, "If you don't learn something new everyday then it's not worth living."

@primateinterfacetechnologi6220

Жыл бұрын

Cool grandfather. If you ask me that's how you keep your brain working; by using it. Plenty of research supports this, and as such, I'm fairly confident that it is basically true. my own observations would be consistent with this as well. obviously thinking all by itself, isn't going to cure some major neuro-degenerative condition, but we know what we're talking about Peace be upon you, sir.

@PrivateSi

Жыл бұрын

I always thought of electric current as free electrons being pulled in sync by the next electron's increasingly +ve nucleus as its electron moves away, to be replaced by the incoming electron. Not completely in sync due to the electrical imbalance signal travelling at a fixed upper limit (C, speed of light). -- Batteries work due to the imbalanced nature of many chemicals, some relatively positive, some negative. Separate +ve and -ve chemical using some insulating boundary in a battery and connect a conductor from +ve to -ve. Each -ve electron is PULLED to the positive side, with each subsequent electron playing follow my leader. -- Vibrations between close-packed (semi) free electrons travel at C.

@copernicofelinis

Жыл бұрын

the unified outcome being... more views.

Your conversation really helps - THANK YOU.

This video is amazing. A topic like this which would normally be mundane; you manage to add so much too it with the edits that it becomes amazingly engaging even for people that aren’t that interested in the topic. Splendid.

The editing was superb and the conversation was great showing the way you guys bounced ideas off each other

Where the field point of view DOES matter in EE design is when looking at PCB design, particularly where the return current flows in a circuit trace over a GND plane below (particularly for higher frequencies). The current associated with a changing signal (e.g. a pulse through the trace) in the GND plane is actually right below the trace, as it is caused by the changing field by the trace. So even if the trace meanders and zigzags all over the PCB, the return current to close the circuit through the GND plane does not choose the shortest path between the contact points, but also follows a meandering zigzagging path as dictated by the field, which follows the path of the circuit trace. Further, if you imagine sending a pulse through a trace, through a load, and then back through the GND plane, the pulse does not travel in a circle out to the load and then back through GND, like a marble on a marble track, or like water through a hose. Rather, as the pulse starts traveling along the trace, AT THE SAME TIME an opposite return current starts forming underneath the trace, traveling in unison with the signal, until it reaches the load. This is exactly like the Veritasium thought experiment - current right under the trace in the GND plane starts flowing right underneath the trace, in parallel with the changing signal. Robert Feranec has a few very good videos on the topic. kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZqJ5xpOjhLevhbQ.html For me at least, this was really a mental switch where it "clicked" - the intuitive idea of "electrons pushing through wires", or even, kinda like water going through pipes, didn't make sense to explain what's actually going on, but thinking in terms of fields, and where those fields are, does really help to understand. This is hugely important when designing HF or RF PCBs, and for EMI compliance (and yes, even an 8Mhz ATMega is high frequency, as the clock edges change within nanoseconds, i.e. 100s of Mhz with harmonics in GHz range).

@primateinterfacetechnologi6220

Жыл бұрын

lost me; fact is, perhaps that ain't hard to do. It sounded like you knew what you were talking about though... and for some reason, I'm going to read what you said about 10 times. Good job. peace.

@Wishuponapancake

Жыл бұрын

upvote this so mehdi sees y'all

@0Rookie0

Жыл бұрын

So would then a "newton's cradle" model work for the energy transfer? At the speed of electrons through a material, the newton's cradle pieces interact and the interaction between the fields carries the energy in reality. Then after "hitting" one side of the newton's cradle it would slowly push the whole assembly to the direction of energy transfer and kind of explain electron drift?

@AndrejaKostic

Жыл бұрын

Although the water analogies are quite common, a much better way of looking at the electrical phenomena would be bicycle chain analogies.

@gohangoku3447

Жыл бұрын

The water model can still be used as a description. One must only not make the mistake of taking an empty pipe for the description. The parallel propagation of the electric fields can be described in so far that each pipe is basically filled with water. As soon as water is added to the outward pipe, the same amount of water flows back on the return pipe.

This was such an epic back and forth I learned more from both of you than I could have learned from just one or the other

The point about charges outside the conductor is an important one for some circuits. A good example is that I learned when setting up my sound system that you want to run the power cable for the amplifier on the opposite side of the car from the audio cable from the head unit to the amplifier. The reason is the power cable draws a strong enough amount of current from the battery that the electromagnetic field will actually cause interference with the audio signal, which in turn causes "dirty sound" as a final result.

Regardless of your views on the nature of electricity and charge gradient in conductors, *this is a tremendously important video* because it shows two intelligent adults having a civic, relevant and pertinent discussion. Very nice collab 👍

@rudetoy8264

Жыл бұрын

And they still good friends at the end?

@cumburger69

Жыл бұрын

I do like having a Honda Civic First Gen (1972) discussion with other adults

@manualspellcorrect9073

Жыл бұрын

@@cumburger69 Especially when it involves civic centre bearings.

@albertlee3472

Жыл бұрын

I think you mean civil

@forloop7713

Жыл бұрын

Tremendeous

Excellent arguments! I agree with you 100%. I can’t think of a reason the surface charges should be in bound states, and calling their current “negligible” doesn’t really help, because if that same quantity of charge were distributed (radially) through the wire as your (and my) initial mental model stated, the total axial current doesn’t change at all. Since talking to Derek about this I’ve been trying to think of any reason they could be bound, and beyond the surface charges that are intrinsic to the material interface/workfunction/whatever that should always exist and be uniform throughout the material, there’s no reason the mobile electrons can’t push on each other. The only bit I would add is that “batteries” don’t supply an electric field, they just pump electrons around in the most direct way possible, but with the thenevin and norton and whatnot we know it doesn’t matter 😁 I’m in the process of trying to set up a water model of exactly what you drew here on the whiteboard to demonstrate ohms law so I think we couldn’t be in closer agreement lol. Now I need to go watch your long wire experiment - I heard from a friend of mine that’s already watched you were able to get it properly impedance matched where Derek and I both missed the mark, so I’m looking forward to it!

@atheistaetherist2747

Жыл бұрын

When are u going to show us a follow up video of what happens at your other resistor, ie that made your brain melt?

@atheistaetherist2747

Жыл бұрын

My new (electon) electricity says that electricity aint due to drifting electrons, it is due to photons (electons) hugging the surface of the Cu. The electons propagate in the insulation (if any) in which case they propagate at the speed of light in the plastic, about 2c/3. On bare wires the speed of electricity is 1c. A good conductor is a substance that a photon can hug, eg all metals are goodish conductors i think. The hugging is strong if there are free-ish conduction electrons in the wire -- Cu has 2 such electrons per atom. Electons don’t reflect, they do a U-turn at the end of the wire. Actually, electons always go straight ahead, it is the surface of the Cu that duz the U-turn. If Mehdi measures the speed of electricity along a threaded rod he will find that the time taken is longer than for a plain rod, the difference being exactly the extra distance up & down over the threads. Mehdi or u should do a youtube about this. Your welcome.

@miamisasquatch

Жыл бұрын

@alphaphoenix compare two multi strand conductors of the same total areas made up of different strand counts. Is the current carrying capacity of the higher strand count greater and with better efficiency specifically because of the surface charge effect?

@ElectroBOOM

Жыл бұрын

Good luck with your water experiments!

@atheistaetherist2747

Жыл бұрын

Will the water model show how the insulation on a wire slows the electricity to 2c/3? Praps AlphaPhoenix can put insulation or something on the outside of the pipe -- hmmmmm -- nah, that wont do anything. Anyhow neither Derek nor Brian nor Dave nor Mehdi nor Bob nor Nick have in their youtubes explained how insulation on a wire slows electricity. Derek did have a try -- he said that the insulation slowed the speed of the Poynting Field/Vector -- which then raises the question -- how does 1 mm of plastic slow the Poynting by 1c/3, when say over 99% of the Poynting is outside the plastic? The 1 mm of plastic will have little affect on the 1/c time delay for the speed of the induction across the 1m gap (talking about Derek's original gedanken here) -- it will add say 3/1000c sec to the time for the bulb to light -- koz the speed of the em radiation will spend 1 mm plus 1 mm = 2 mm in plastic on the 2 wires, which adds 0.003/c seconds to Derek's 1/c seconds. But, while all of that is happening across the 1000 mm gap (in the original gedanken), the speed of the electricity around the long circuit is 2c/3 (assuming that the full length of wire is insulated) (Derek didnt say). Actually, Derek did say, he said that the half circuit was 300,000 km long, & that the electricity would take 1 sec, which implies zero insulation. But, we can see that all of the wire shown in his video is insulated, the wire to & from the battery, & the wire to & from the light-bulb. And, Derek keeps saying that the distance to the light-bulb is 1 m -- distance from what? -- from the other wire? -- from the battery? -- from the switch? Derek should have said from the switch. But he didnt. Koz he duznt know how electricity & induction works. Sheeeesh! And, like i said, Derek doesnt know that insulation slows electricity to 2c/3. Double sheeeeesh!

this was the most scientific way to comment a video: an specialist arguing (his believe) with another specialist backing up his theory with citations! just amazing

I could understand more before I saw this video! I think that the explanation with "push and pull" and the one with electric field are equal, because they are just different theories representing the same phenomana. But, I think using electric field to understand this is better, because field can represent the situation more correctly where all the electrons contribute to the field and are affected by it, which mean this explanation include all the objects, electrons, protons and a battery, whereas "push and pull" theory only consider close particles as approximation. But, still they are the same!

@Dazza_Doo

Жыл бұрын

Look Up Rick Hartley (PCB Design)

@packmandudefake

Жыл бұрын

Look Up Rick Astley (Never Gonna Give You Up)

We need more of these kinds of collabs between science communicators on KZread! Seeing these sort of back and forth not only allow me to better understand whats going on but also contribute to the scientific community and encourage public discussion of topics that otherwise would go over my head

@ikosaheadrom

Жыл бұрын

You understood something I was just watching... Idk what they were even talking about

@gregoryp203

Жыл бұрын

The analogy I use is each electron is a man with a bucket in a bucket brigade and the water is the electrons . when not connected to a battery the buckets are full of water. when connected to the battery the chemical energy strips electrons from the + conductor or in the analogy empies its bucket into tbe electorlyte of the battery . the man with a full bucket next to the man with an empty one ,dumps his bucket into the empty one making his bucket empty and the next guy dumps his and so on. this in effect causes an empty bucket to move from + to - .

@KalebPeters99

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I think that this kind of high-quality back-and-forth is exactly the niche that science KZread channels can fill in sci-comm. It's very much a Socratic dialogue for all of us watching. Brilliant stuff

@anomuumit

Жыл бұрын

This discussion works as an example of how to discuss about everything in life.

You guys should really include nick from “the science asylum” in this. He made a really well animated and explained video discussing all this pretty much, about 2 years ago. He’s criminally under-subbed.

@LuskyMJ

Жыл бұрын

Veritasium referred to him in one of the videos.

@santiagocabascango6514

Жыл бұрын

Do you have the link?

@xponen

Жыл бұрын

AlphaPheonix did the actual experiment with 1km wire. See what actually happen rather than only see theoretical discussion.

@LuskyMJ

Жыл бұрын

@@santiagocabascango6514 kzread.info/dash/bejne/dWuos6xtYtGtntI.html

@eilabaca

Жыл бұрын

@@xponen Derek mentioned him on his last video on the topic and recreated his test with the same results.

Awesome discussion - reading up on skin-effect in AC Transmission lines - the traditional model is quite effective in explaining so many of the practical questions around electricity…

I think these back-and-forth conversations are super important! Be they over a video call or videos made in reply to other videos, it keeps everyone thinking and accountable for what they say; if they make a mistake, it’s good for others to catch them! Also maybe electrons don’t push and they’re being sucked

What I love is that they are pointing out that the accepted model (while it works very well) does present a lot of common questions which are NOT stupid and actually quite logical.

@theviolator23

Жыл бұрын

Classical models really aren't geared to give insight on the behavior of individual elections. They work well enough for nearly all practical applications, but eventually they break down and you need quantum models to get any additional insight.

@emorell96

Жыл бұрын

@@theviolator23 Thank you! finally someone that goes to the core of the issue. They keep trying to use classical models, i.e. Drude's model, to treat an inherently high frequency problem that is outside of the scope of validity of their question, and then wonder why the results don't match with expectations. The "misconceptions" are not misconceptions, simply different models which are valid in some cases only because they use assumptions that reduce their validity to specific situations. Is like using classical mechanics to solve a special relativity problem.

@stevenspmd

Жыл бұрын

@@theviolator23 My point was more that such models are usually taught without any hint as to their limitations. Personally, I find knowing such things helps me accept such models because it tells me my gut feelings are right.

@mduckernz

Жыл бұрын

@@stevenspmd Exactly. If you're taught that the model is just that, an approximation, and has limitations, then it's much easier to suppress that knowledge later on when you come across a problem that requires it. Otherwise you effectively need to "un-learn" it and it's really difficult

Just like with the Steve Mould's video your reactions are perfect for me. They are not here to prove the original wrong, rather to explain a few concepts better. I usually have similar questions as you do and you research them for me, thanks!

I think it's great to see you clarifying your points of view but both being willing to learn.

This is a nice eye opener. I always thought from my school lessons that electrons are flowing like a stream of water from the sea of electrons in a conductor material. But we were taught in biology that electrical charge or action potential propagates in a somewhat similar manner but here electrolytes (Na, Ca, K ions) create charges.

I have a EET background, and I thought of the current of electrons in a way similar to you. A surplus of electrons in the wire close to the negative terminal pushes electrons ahead to fill holes in the wire close to the positive terminal. The longer the wire, the higher the resistance because you are needing to overcome a static resistance. If the conduit has a larger cross sectional area, i.e. a higher guage, then it lowers the resistance because some of those electrons in the matrix have the ability to move out of the way. The immediate way most people would understand what I'm saying is that the wire is like a pipe, but it is more like an inverted pipe. The electrons are moving on the surface, but the same properties hold true in that the higher guage has less resistance and that the differential gives electrons a way to overcome that internal resistance and push other electrons forward... But superconductors change that perspective for me. A superconductor wouldn't have a gradient. You can't use a DMM and measure a voltage potential across a superconductor and yet it will still carry a current. This would suggest that since the electrons are free to move through the matrix there must be some other force moving them. If it isn't the force of a gradient applied across the conductor, then the only other obvious force would be the field. If a field applies to a superconductor, then it stands to reason that the field would apply to any conductor. I think that the classical way of modeling electricity like water pushing through a pipe is still a good way to think about what is happening in a circuit for most circuits someone would build on a bench with a breadboard or a soldering iron, however it doesn't capture the reality of why and what is truly happening in a circuit.

@Phil8sheo

Жыл бұрын

Amazing comment, thanks.

@bermchasin

Жыл бұрын

Superconductors dont have a gradient, but they also do not require a field. All they need is an initial electron movement, and it will continue to persist.

@greg77389

Жыл бұрын

Whatever the case with superconductors, the fields couldn't be outside it, because then it would result in energy leaks, but we know a superconductor is lossless. So whatever is happening, it has to happen INSIDE the superconductor, yes? So then how can it be wrong to say it's simply a matter of electron interactions within the superconductor?

@R.B.

Жыл бұрын

@@greg77389 I'm not sure that's completely true. I remember bringing this up once in a physics class, with a superconductor with an induced current and an ideal pair of inductor and capacitor. The claim was that the current would continue to flow in oscillation unless there was some external force. To verify it, you could sense the field and reintroduce another field to restore whatever was removed by the sensing... This thought experiment has hypothetical ideal components, but it didn't seem to sway my instructor that you couldn't introduce a current external to the superconductor. Furthermore, I believe it is this property about the fields extending outside the superconductor that allows for the locking you see when suspending a magnet over the superconductor.

@jakedewey3686

Жыл бұрын

But electrons can't move - that is, current can't flow - without a charge gradient. Charge gradients *are* the active component of the electric field.

About gradient having opposite effects according to each of you, I just want to point out that in electric guitar magnetic pickups, the amount of wire around the poles DOES have two conflicting effects. It results in inductance but also impedance, which means that depending on the impedance of the receiving circuit the perceived output may be higher or lower. You'll find nonsensical results such as "mixing two pickups of radically different sizes will result in the quiet one dominating the loud one" (seen in the Gibson EB3 for example)

@tastefulsubstance

Жыл бұрын

Gibson guitars r pretty sweet

@cjserf2939

Жыл бұрын

About the surface charges inducing a current in the conductor but also drifting along the surface of the conductor. If the surface charges do drift the reason why they might have a negligible effect on the current in the conductor is because of their volumetric state. If you add up all the available electron charges on the surface they will be vastly outnumbered by the available electron charges in the bulk of the conductor. So even if they do drift along the surface of the conductor their charge effect on the conductor remains the same but their energy contribution to the load is negligible.

@gordonlawrence1448

Жыл бұрын

This is why for some types of circuit impedance matching and transmission line theory are so important.

Very interesting to see the points on both sides. Great video!

Enjoyed this post. It seems to somewhat combine the electron and hole theories I was presented by one of my instructors in the early 1970's. Excellent animations and drawings!

Thank you Mehdi. I found this video extremely helpful. After studying EE for 3 years i find it baffeling, frustrating and also fascinating that the "simplest" concepts are very much not as simple as they seem

Finally!! Great stuff! I've been teaching the "spitting/sucking electrons" model for batteries for ages, seems obvious once you've built a Daniell battery once in your life. Recharge it and look at that Zinc build up and Copper ions in the solution. The fact that the battery delivers energy through the + AND the - becomes apparent.

@Breakfast_of_Champions

Жыл бұрын

But what about AC...

@fluentpiffle

Жыл бұрын

"Commendation from NASA for research work at Massachusetts Institute of Technology on the Earth's atmosphere and the Moon's surface for navigation of the Apollo spacecraft to the Moon.. Dr. Milo Wolff has found the structure of the electron consisting of two spherical quantum waves, one moving radially outward and another moving radially inward. The center of the waves is the nominal location of the electron 'particle'. These waves extend infinitely, like charge force. All 'particle' waves mix and contribute to each other, thus all matter of the universe is interrelated by this intimate connection between the fundamental 'particles' and the universe. The natural laws are a direct consequence of this Wave Structure of Matter (WSM), thus WSM underlies all of science." spaceandmotion

@vanoscrap6296

Жыл бұрын

@@Breakfast_of_Champions same thing, just the direction of sucking/spitting gets inverted a few times per second. And actually the wave effect Mehdi talks about allows to explain capacitive and inductive effects in that case.

@Accuaro

Жыл бұрын

What about thunder foot disproving your video about water

@sammyd7857

Жыл бұрын

a battery doesn't deliver energy from both poles

I'm starting to study electronics by myself and understanding the field, matter relation helps me understand voltage as a 2 "sides" force so many didactic content on youtube it feels like studying in the future. I can picture the movement and energy on the circuits we use everyday. Thanks for this awesome discussions

From what I read before, with DC currents, electrons flow through the wire similar to water through porous concrete. Each atom would be similar to aggregate in porous concrete. Water flows between the pebbles. However, with AC current, the charges inside the nucleus are influenced to flip back and forth with a slight lag in timing. As momentum changes the internal atoms offer up resistance which causes flow to a lower outer resistance path provided by fields on the perimeter.

Physics grad here. One of the engineering physics questions that totally made students insane was to calculate the average drift velocity for electrons in a wire and calculating the eclectic field in a wire. Those questions were always MORE difficult for students that understood Kerkoffs loop laws and could model circuits well. Turn on a light and let it run for a bit turn it off. The average electron has moved and incomprehensibly short amount. Blows peoples minds. I was a tutor and every year every Professor would assign the problem. Students who rarely, if ever, came for help would come for help on the problem they "got wrong" they all thought they had an order of magnitude problem or problem with vector field modeling. I am not surprised that people are confused with this and ALSO get the idea that it does not matter much. We teach circuits in a way that helps people understand and use them correctly. Probably using a working modle is what's MOST important.

@filips7158

Жыл бұрын

You sir remain true to your name

@Vintik_51

Жыл бұрын

@@filips7158 it is dyslexia, don't be so harsh

@filips7158

Жыл бұрын

@@Vintik_51 I know, nothing mean or bad implied

These collaborations are great. Especially in the form of discussion where it's back and forth exchange of ideas and answers and explanations, which takes a lot of gaps out immediately - the follow up questions get answered or discussed right away. The ones that might be hidden from the one making an explanatory video, but a mystery to the one watching it. Great video.

The model of the charge gradient existing only on the surface of the wire is very clear when you remember the wires capacitance

In Summary: - The battery creates an electric field in the wire, where the surfaces of the wire become more negative or more positive - When the circuit is closed, surface charges exert a force on the electrons in the middle of the wire, - This "pushes" them through the wire, therefore producing a current - The surface electrons themselves also move, but have a negligible impact on the current - The current in the wire creates magnetic fields surrounding the wire - The interaction of the magnetic fields and electric fields around the wire creates a flow of energy along the wire, toward the load - This energy from the interaction of the electric and magnetic field is the main energy powering the load There is no point trying to separate whether the energy comes from the electrons, the wires, the fields, etc. because they all exist in the same system together. You can't have energy in fields outside the wires without the current of electrons inside the wire.

I did some of this in College and I’m glad it’s not so straightforward to you guys either, I came away with the impression that mental models are for accurately modelling outcomes for engineering and the truth is for philosophers to debate.

@primateinterfacetechnologi6220

Жыл бұрын

Yep.

@Andrew-tk9lh

Жыл бұрын

I’d say the truth is more for scientists who create experiments and run simulations that test the different mental models (so for example, a transient analysis of current flow in parallel resistors that could validate or invalidate Mehdi’s hypothesis earlier that current self-corrects via bulk electron interactions and not just EM field propagation) to decide, but yes, I’m glad there’s this acknowledgement that these things aren’t so straightforward

@cannettedebiere

Жыл бұрын

Not for philosophers but quantum physics professional. This is typically a particule physics problem.

@_inetuser

Жыл бұрын

good summary

I've always loved watching your videos. Growing up in a poor community was extremely difficult, and my lack of self-discipline did not help my decision making. From being a gettho child who had no high school education doomed to fail, to now finishing my higher education in computer science. I want to become a cyber security specialist. I just want you to know, you're part of my inspiration.

@austintumblerock3140

Жыл бұрын

Congratulations ❤

@mastershooter64

Жыл бұрын

congrats! that's awesome bro!

@thepandemicequation7100

Жыл бұрын

Admirable! Keep it up, bro!

@G0LDN5

Жыл бұрын

Same here bro. Congrats!

This feels a little like the confusion that arises when observing waves in the ocean or atmosphere - it’s tempting to see the wave as a feature that moves and influences the flow as it does so, but in actuality the flow moves through the features, not the other way around.

I think the concept of characteristic impedance is quite relevant to this topic. It even gives you ways to calculate inductance or capacitance given a wave velocity and impedance, or to calculate velocity given the inductance & capacitance of a line. Given a parallel resistor branch, I don't think there's any "guessing" at all, current follows the path given the characteristic impedance - at least at a coarse level. You can use E & M solvers (Microwave Office, Sonnet, HFSS, Simbian, and/or many others) to determine the behavior quite precisely, including through antenna, which is their main reason for being.

I love the way you do this, like with Steve Mould's chain fountain. Two people trying to prove each other wrong in a civil manner is both fun and a great way to learn! Also a great reminder that everything in science is just models to simplify and understand complex things

@supremelordoftheuniverse5449

Жыл бұрын

Except masks and vaccines. Those are undeniable unquestionable doctrine. The science has spoken, bow and obey.

@coryman125

Жыл бұрын

@@supremelordoftheuniverse5449 ???

@primateinterfacetechnologi6220

Жыл бұрын

...and also another great reminder of how things could be if everybody was... well I don't know... what would one call it...? civil? normal? like adults with concerns and priorities that are exactly what they state them to be? Instead of the stuff you tend to find out there, randomly. I don't want to say anything bad about anybody... but most people suck. Not these people, however. Peace be upon you, sir.

1) What Veritasium (and ElectroBOOM) is missing is that you simply cannot separate charge from field distribution. If you look at Maxwell equations there is not way to separate one from the other. The charges move because of the field, while charges are creating the field. You can't make arguments for both, and both can give you a usable explanation within certain frames of reference, but neither charges nor fields can be considered independently. 2) Technically nothing pushes anything else by touch since the only mediators of force are the fundamentals forces of nature, and since the only one that applies at lengths larger than the nucleus of an atom is the electromagnetic force (gravity too but not of interested here), EVERYTHING is moved away by the actions of the fields link to that matter. For example: If someone slaps you in the face, it will still be the electromagnetic fields in the atoms on your friend's hand that exchange energy with your face. 3) Veritasiums problem was a trick question not because it was not correct, but because our common (and the only one with a meaningful use) understanding of when a lamp bulb is on is at the steady state. If the lamp is on or off is not a matter of physics, but a matter of agreement, and commonly we agree that the lamp is on when it is FULLY ON, when the electrons go around the whole loop. This is why the this is a trick question, because he challenges common expectations and abuses the definition of what makes a lamp being on.

These discussions end up being muvh more exciting than the original videos! Thanks for sharing them.

I think of electricity as either the result of a difference in voltage pressure due to resistance in a completed circuit, or as the backwards exchange of void electron particles from a resistive force. That's why high voltage can shock you without a complete circuit: the difference in voltage pressure is so immense that the slight resistive force of your body is enough to create those void electron particles by push/pulling the stable valence shells in your body apart and travel the electronic force into a current through the newly created conducting path. Its true about being neither a push or a pull, it's more like how a diode works. There is a simultaneous draw and pull within each molecule based around the materials resonance, individual velocities, and the constant exchange of higher velocity electrons with slower velocity ones to create equilibrium. Diodes operate by taking advantage of different forms of electron particles either representing the void where electrons want to flow or the excess of electrons to bridge the gap. If a diode pushed electrons then it would bridge the gap and be gaited by the amount of extra free electrons within the diode, if it pulled then the idea of a diode only working one way is kind of backwards with how we understand electron physics. Instead the excess energy in a circuit seeks to find equilibrium with any material it can exchange that energy with though that materials natural harmonic resistance as well as electronic impedance. That might be why triangular valence shells are best for conducting current: because they will most typically exert an unbalanced but self correcting valence shell when it comes to excess energy. IE their electrons want to push the energy difference into equilibrium just as much as they want to pull the void electron particle to a new place in a conductor.

It was really a great polite discussion. I get some additional ideas about the electrons flowing in a wire and i really want to acknowledge both of you.

This is awesome! Good work both of you... building quality knowledge for the world like that! It's been awesome to follow this discussion from the first Veritasium video throughout all the reviews and discussions. I think you did a grand work on putting the final conclusions into action! Kudos!

brilliant, thank you. It added something to see you two guys working it out between you. It did. Was a good thing. :)

Edit: This ends up being mostly covered closer to the end of the video. It's almost like there is an equivalent description available that doesn't rely on the notion of "pushing" to describe something that can also be described as pushing depending on frame of reference. This is kinda the whole deal with gauge theory. Spin-statistics already guarantee the electrons cannot exist in the same state, and will thus develop a pressure density when they get pushed together. When we say "does the energy come from the particle or the field," this seems to ignore that the particle comes from the electric field that is already present in the system. A particle exerting force is no different than a field exerting force via fluctuation in a given density. The interplay of what it takes for an electron to appear as a form of energy from an electron field is already sufficient to describe whatever energy we wish to discuss. All an electron even is is a disturbance in that pre-existing field. We don't even need to rely on the notion of particles at all to model this entire system. We can even describe it purely geometrically using coordinate-free differential geometry.

This has been so informative. Thanks for your insight and helping us understand these more complex things. You're awesome and I love your videos

This is the internet at its best! Two minds comparing notes, both trying to improve their understanding of how the universe works, no egos getting in the way. Thank you for sharing this discussion!

I listened to the veritasium video while working, and was so mentally upended i spent the next work hour researching this. Thank you for this video! It makes perfect sense now.

Great discussion! I'm left pondering 1. inductive charging and 2. RF transmission. Neither of these share a metallic conductor between the source and load/receiver. I accept #1 as "magnetically coupled", and #2 as a propagating "EM field". Aren't these are the same fields as this thought experiment? How does it work without a conductor to hold surface charges?

I saw a video from a physicist AlphaPhoenix putting this to the test with 1km of wire and an oscilloscope. It showed there was an immediate movement in the wire which then grew quite significantly. If I recall about 20% of the voltage measured conformed to Veritasium's explanation whilst the rest came through at the time you'd anticipate for the more conventional description. That seems a soft confirmation of the traditional theory, but seems to be exactly what one would expect with your later explanation in this video. I wasn't convinced by Veritasium's video but your explanation makes a ton of sense to me and conforms perfectly to the evidence demonstrated. There definitely is a time component one would expect from something travelling along the wire. The book seems a little odd to me. It describes conductors as just a binary thing rather than a spectrum. Whilst it might not matter to the description being presented it gave a lot of confusion and really wasn't too convincing for that reason. Your description gave a far better and more convincing argument. Veritasium's firm statement of "the light turns on instantly" being (mostly) wrong didn't help my understanding either I would say, even if it was trying to highlight the distinct differences in theory. Definitely glad I watched this, seeing the debate was very productive towards my understanding. Plus you're amazing at breaking down topics in an understandable way. Very glad for these debates.

@Rostam.

Жыл бұрын

I hope he sees this

@bernardjudegutierrez4721

Жыл бұрын

I think the real problem with the whole debacle is Derek was trying to be clever instead of making the point in a more succinct way. I know he makes money from clicks but that shouldn't make clarity second.

@RipleySawzen

Жыл бұрын

I think the book refers only to the steady state, DC power. We're in the initial state of DC power, which is closer to AC power. We're dealing with changes in current, which means unequal charge distribution.

@Dreadlk

Жыл бұрын

And without seeing the test I know that both ends of the 1KM of wire where very close to each other. Tell him to try it with the wire stretched out and the scope on one end and the battery at the other end. Creating electromagnetic fields in wire is almost impossible to avoid, they will propagate over and be picked up by any wire nearby.

@matsv201

Жыл бұрын

Yea.. i saw that to.. And as an electrical engineer, the result of the test was exactly what i expected. its not really that strange. We see it all the time in circuit board with high frequency interaction. That is why we have groundplanes everywhere and link them together like every mm.

11:00 I remember asking this exact question in my middle/high school physics class. I also remember making a pretty big deal about it in my back and forth with the teacher, so this whole discussion is very interesting to me.

I always imagined it as electrons being "pulled" by the opposite attraction on the other side rather than being "pushed." In other words, once the circuit is closed, the electrons are attracted to go in that direction as there is a venue for them to go through to where they want to go on the other side. The power source is basically creating a charge imbalance on its side forcing the electrons to want to leave to a balanced location rather than them being "pushed" out. Which is why copper makes for such as good conductor, because of it's loosely held valence electrons and its outermost zone being only half filled allowing it to carry a vast number of electrons as they make their way to the other side. If that makes sense.

Hello @ElectroBoom. I love your videos and Presentation. I am an Electrical Engineer that has a strong foundation in the underlying physics. I was a Nuclear Technician in the Navy before getting my degree and I was pulling my hair out. I don't completely disagree with either of you but here is how I have understood current flow. A Conductor is most commonly a metal and what all metals have in common is they have 1 or 2 electrons in the outer valance electron shell which commonly give it a negative ionic charge.. They form a (ideally) regular structure when they bond. When they bond these outer Valance electrons are not entirely concerned with which atom they originally belonged to. The outer valance shell kind of extends throughout the conductor and contains 1 or 2 electrons from each atom in the structure .They kind of wander about the material and their major concern is that they maintain the maximum spacing between any other electrons in this META valance shell. These Valance Electrons are the current carrying electrons. All other electrons in the atomic structure are tightly bound to the atoms. There is an old timey physics experiment where an electric field is applied to a metallic sphere. It is well known that all the free electrons in the material (the valance electrons) space themselves evenly across the surface of the sphere. if you touched the sphere anywhere the electrons would attempt to do the same thing to your surface and your hair would stand up. This is just all the electrons naturally falling into the lowest energy state because of the force of the electric field applied to them. Now. here is the mind blow that was relayed to me by a very smart physics teacher about 25 years ago give or take. Take that same metal sphere. Pinch the end of it and drag it out so that it is deformed into a long thin wire . It is still the same material with the same volume and the electrons all behave the same way. When you close the switch and apply the voltage to the wire the Valance electrons all rush to the lowest energy state which is even spacing along the surface of the material. If you never connect the negative terminal to the other end of the wire that is in fact what happens. It is evidenced by the fact that the voltage between any point on the conductor in an open circuit and the negative terminal of the source is the source voltage. When you connect the negative terminal and you create a loop then the electrons fall off a cliff. inside the source beyond the negative terminal is mechanism to absorb free electrons. It could be a chemical reaction or it could be an infinitely large space or it could be a magnetic field to fling them back up to the positive terminal. when that happens there is never a lowest energy state. the electrons spread out and the ones at the end fall out of the conductor which leaves room so they spread out more but the source is then free to push a few more in the other end. But it is the same process that energizes the metal spheres that make your hair stand on end. thanks for reading. I only saw this video today. keep up the good work.

An interesting addition to the experiment: a third wire in between, in parallel to 2 wires, with a load in the middle. Ends not connected to anything. I expect it to act in the same way like the original load would, but current will die out as soon as the wave travels all the way. Effectively it would show that the initial low current in the load is propagated as a basically radio wave, until the wave propagates through the whole wire and creates a closed loop. While the initial wave spreads, it creates an effectively a changing electric fields, and changing electric fields, quoting Faraday, induce currents.

@leonhardtkristensen4093

Жыл бұрын

In my opinion you are getting some of it. Every electric current is generating a radio wave I believe. In reality a DC current is also an AC current just with a very low frequency. A square wave (what switching on a DC current is) is generated by an infinity of odd harmonics (as far as I remember) and there fore the initial switching on generates very high frequencies. These very high frequencies will of cause transfer energy to anything they get to and they are moving with the speed of light. It is these high frequency harmonics that gives the initial energy to the lamp I believe - but it is the main current that comes along the wire some how that transfers the main energy to the lamp. The radio pulses are actually losses as they go every where.

I CAN COUNT ELECTRONS! . Hi EBOOM & Veritasium , I work with SEMs (Scanning Electron Microscope) and I must insist that the electrons do move from the negative to the positive of the power supply actually "move" pushing each other and really moving . If this was not the case we would not get the ability to control them in vacuum using EM/ES fields or have them interact with the material they are "bombarding" . We can even measure each electrons energy and count them (almost one by one)

@WCM1945

Жыл бұрын

But the coupling between them is purely the static field.

@lakshay391

5 ай бұрын

if that is the case, then electrons and holes wouldn't move to form depletion layer .

@ronald3836

4 ай бұрын

But why do they move? Why do electrically charged particles act on each other? We explain this with the electromagnetic field.

@eintennisspieler4259

2 ай бұрын

@@ronald3836well if they didn’t move, how come that a normal light bulb does heat up and produce light? Or how does an oscilloscope produce free electrons that literally flow onto a screen? In addition you can measure the heat that is produced by the friction of the moving electrons insight a wire.

@ronald3836

2 ай бұрын

@@eintennisspieler4259 I'm not saying they don't move (they do, but rather slowly). I'm saying it is the field that makes them move, not the electrons moving that makes the field. However part of this is just the mathematical model we use to explain the physical phenomenon of electricity. In this model, it is the field that makes the electrons move. And the model seems pretty accurate.

❤ love both of you guys for your amazing teachings.

I would be interested to see how these tests change as the skin depth of the conductor is altered with the frequency of the signal. I feel like being able to vary skin depth would be helpful in modeling these ideas.

This video was really helpful, the surface charge distribution now makes a lot more sense! It's awesome that you two could come to an agreement as well.

I especially like the close-up of his grey carpet as the background when the guys are chatting. Lovely. Grey carpet is very popular 👍

I just have studied till end of high school, thinking the model which they have taught us were not true, but i always think of current flow as a group of photons movement for better imagination and i use Electromagnetic field and waves as a tool/answer for many questions arriving in my head in many different aspects of thinking about physics and the universe. 18:30 to 18:45 is the simplest and a right explaination and i think the energy goes outside of the circuit as EM waves such as light emission, infrared, ultra violet, x-ray or even in a higher/lower range of frequencies in the EM spectrum. thak you aqa Mehdi and mr Derek.

It's nice to watch experts having a conversation. Makes me feel like I have a lot to learn.

A ton of learning from this one. So my takeaway is: electrons probably drift slowly because they end up having a positive net force forward in a charge gradient that is caused when voltage is applied, but they don't carry significant energy, fields do. Fields propagate, electrons follow and generate the fields or something, fields do the work. There's still something to be clarified about electrons generating fields and how the fields carry energy, as well as how resistance is properly visualized as fields. Awesome you're clarifying this!

When I first started learning about electronics I thought charges pushed each other, but after a while it didn't made sense to me, because how would it know what path to go beforehand? So then I started to imagine charges were "sucked" from the negative side to the positive side, so the positive charges were attacting pulling the charges, while they would be pushing each other as well, and the pull from the protons would guide them.... But after reading about singnal integrity and electromagnetic compatibility, I know it was all wrong lol

@astronemir

Жыл бұрын

Just wait until the quantum magic wreckers that mental model. How did the particle know there were two holes instead of one? There is no connected battery or anything. But if you shoot particles, one at a time, through two holes (slits) instead of one, they behave differently. What the fuck

@ambiverter

Жыл бұрын

@@astronemir 😩🤯

@jondo7680

Жыл бұрын

No that's bullshit. The particle doesn't need to know anything. No changes between wave and particle forms. No zombie cats. Just a particle riding a wave and hidden variables. Look up the pilote wave theory. It makes so much senses that physicist dislike it. Stories about zombie cats and multiverses sell better than particles riding on waves. That's why Harry Potter makes more cash than Electro Boom.

Two genius people, having you is a nice thing to be part of my knowledge business. Thank you both of you. I have one question at this stage high loads need high current flow, how and why

This wraps up the best sincere discourse humanity is gifted with in a long long time.Credit to you both.

As much as I learn from your channel, these collaborations do an amazing job of helping me figure out how such seemingly simple, yet incredibly complex, topics work. Thank you, and keep up the great work!

My biggest problem with what Derek calls "long range" interactions is that it's EM radiation that we call radio. In his second video, one of his sim "proofs" was that a free standing parallel wire carries the same initial weak charge as the loop, but there are two problems with that: first, it's analogous to the reflector elements in a Yagi antenna, which do virtually no work and aren't "read" by a receiver; second, while it mirrors what's happening on the far connected wire, the disconnected wire will not carry the same current as in the circuit because it is disconnected. If we were to watch that sim to an equilibrium-ish state, the (much smaller) radiation field coming off the disconnected wire would affect the circuit until it would reach its own neutral state or the circuits current would be strong enough in relation to the radiation that it would swallow that electronic swashing.

@josephlarrybradley508

Жыл бұрын

Don't like Derek at all. He tries to make a physical comparison that can't be made., Not just this video/subject.

@tyhodnett3031

Жыл бұрын

@@josephlarrybradley508 I come at this whole conversation as someone who holds the highest level of HAM radio license, not as an electrical engineer or physicist, but yeah, his two main points are "surface charge" and "fields." Surface charges are a core component in physical and radio networking because thicker gauge wire correlates really weirdly with signal clarity, so that's not news to anyone that works with cables. In that sense, he's got a point that the wire is not a tube that pushes electrons. However, when he moves from the micro to macro scale, he's making some really weird leaps of logic. Radio waves might jump a gap, but they're probably not going to turn on a light considering the amount of power NFC sensors require. As an aside, he also implied that wireless charging is sending electricity through an imaginary wire, not a manipulation of fields that burns electricity on one end to generate some on the other. Further, the isolated wire that I have the biggest problem with could easily be made into a transformer (another known mechanism) if he closed a loop on it.

@JivanPal

Жыл бұрын

@@tyhodnett3031 , indeed, the "long range" / EM wave transfer of energy only works for AC signals. AlphaPhoenix touched on how the initial behaviour is identical to that of a transceiver/transformer setup in his video response to the original Veritasium video.

@tyhodnett3031

Жыл бұрын

@@JivanPal I'll watch that one soon. The second Veritasium video referenced it, but Derek's experiment in the second that showed an activity bump glazed over the relative magnitude of the current so I didn't watch any other experiments.

@uploadJ

Жыл бұрын

re: "first, it's analogous to the reflector elements in a Yagi antenna, which do virtually no work and aren't "read" by a receiver;" One has to be careful with this; there are constructive and destructive fields set up by the directors and the so-called 'reflector' as excited by the driven element, and these summed 'fields' create the radiation pattern. Point being, the reflector might be misnamed for this application, but, that's still what we call it.

Thanks Mehdi, another well-done video explaining it to the T so that a layman would understand. 👏

I know I’m coming months after this original discussion. I remember seeing Veritasium's original video and a couple videos after, and there is a subtlety that I think Derek (I’m likely misspelling his name) fails to mention and that is the regions of concentration of Poynting vector power. The fields are most concentrated along the contour of the wire. So, while there is power transmission across the space to the bulb, meaning that there is indeed a 1/c transmission time for the start of power dissipation at the bulb, the more significant bulk of power transmission follows the contour of the wire, meaning it takes a much longer time. There was a video where one guy did the experiment using an oscilloscope to measure the timing of the power transmission and found exactly this. From Jackson's “Classical Electrodynamics”, we learn that conductors are defined as equipotential volumes, that is, the electric potential is the same everywhere throughout the volume of the conductor. This means the electric fields are not allowed to exist anywhere within the volume of the conductor since the electric field is the gradient of the electric potential. Should any electric field develop within the volume of the conductor, free charges will immediately respond to that field such to cancel it out (electric charges only respond to electric fields in their reference frame). So, the electrons within the conductor are always moving in response to any existent field within the conductor such to cancel the field and return the volume of the conductor to a state of being equipotential. However, at the surface of the conductor, electric fields normal to the surface of the conductor, due to concentrations of surface charge to cancel the internal electric fields of the conductor, can exist. Further, magnetic fields near the surface are created due to the bulk movements of charge through the conductor. Both these fields have their highest magnitudes near the surface of the conductor; thus, the Poynting vector, S = ExB, will have its greatest magnitudes near the surface of the conductor. They are both right, but I think there are some additional details to complete the picture of understanding that are being left out.

The back and forth on this topic makes me think of the difference between Newtonian and Einsteinian mechanics. Newtonian mechanics continue to serve us well in our daily lives, until the deeper reality has a non-negligible impact on a system. I'm very excited to see your replication of this experiment. I wonder how you will lower the noise floor of your measurements. If you're able to approach the ideal configuration, as described in your previous video, it would be amazing to see that in your measurement.

@__8120

Жыл бұрын

Or how quantum mechanics are generally able to be ignored, because at a macro scale they don't really do much, but in some cases they become super important, like if we build transistors in CPUs much smaller electrons will start quantum tunnelling

@passintogracegoldenyearnin6310

Жыл бұрын

@@__8120 As someone put it, we're already using numbers like the Coupling Constant without even understanding where it comes from or why it works. As soon as we started getting past "FIRE. HOT." the answers kept leading to more questions and the questions kept getting harder to answer.

@subjekt5577

Жыл бұрын

At the end of the day, it's just math, and we're here just nitpicking over the best words and models to use to explain it. The deeper we go, our normal language starts to break down, and does an increasingly poor job of translating the math to English/whatever For the record though, I'm more inclined towards Veratasium's viewpoint

@vijayabhaskarj3095

Жыл бұрын

That's exactly what I thought.

@samygafsi6429

Жыл бұрын

I literally went through the comments to see if someone said this. If not I owuld have said it myself. Models serve us by simplifying the phenomenon in order for us to make use of it. Since the point is using it, as long as it works, let's use. While the more accurate description of the situation helps us wit hdiscovery and improving our technology. telling the difference between both views is like comparing researchers and engineers : Each serve a different thing but they are both aware of each others workwhile being 100% essential.

7:05 That's wrong. Every physical circuit has a positive (albeit usually quite small) capacitance. Usually it doesn't matter, but you have to argue why it doesn't matter before you remove it from your model. If you want a classical (non-Poynting) explanation to the experiment that started all this, that capacitance, and the electric field gradient that the surplus charges set up, will explain it. Edit: I see you get into this later in the video. Cool. 8:55 You're forgetting that your drawing has a resistor in it. More conductive conductor means less electric field in the conductor, but MORE electric field in the resistor.

This was a lot of fun! Great stuff! 12/28/22

Derik's way of think matter because with the currents running outside the conductor, you can explain Faraday's gauge and why you are protected inside vehicles when a lightning strikes your car... Because the current flow outside the conductor, you are protected inside the car. (And, no, it is not because the tires are insulants, because at the lightning voltages, the tires become good conductors!) For the same reason, in many cases, the skin of persons stroke by lightning is burned in outside, but less inside. The transmission lines have this in mind too, because they can have less conductive cores to support the wire weight, but high conductive outside cover to conduct the current.

I was involved in an experiment years ago regarding the speed of electrons in materials (metals). It does vary both by metal and by where you are in the metal (electrons on the surface move faster). That said faster in this particular context is a blistering 0.3mm per second (slower in iron and some other metals). If I remember correctly on the surface of silver, electron speed got all the way up to 0.31mm per second.

@albertlee3472

Жыл бұрын

That's the drift velocity. Individual electrons zip around at Fermi velocity, which is much much higher.

Great discussion. A bit lost in all this though is you keep showing a DC circuit in your animations and Derek did the same in his original example. But he refers to fields which have more effect in AC circuits. Such as his statement about power line transformers in his original video, that they don’t transfer electrons because it’s not a continuous wire. But a pure DC circuit won’t continuously transfer energy in a transformer circuit, only AC (ignoring pulsed DC circuits). So it’s really a bit of apples and oranges and why they are different but related science (Edison DC vs Tesla AC).

@matsaks

Жыл бұрын

+1.. distribution charges close to surface looks like as well known skin effect that take place in AC .. DC doesn't have skin effect .. isn't it?..

@randomnobody660

Жыл бұрын

They are talking about dc circuit thou. Electric fields cause current, ac or dc. It's just with ac the electric field switches back and forth. Also i think you might be using "pure DC circuit" to mean "steady state DC". When a dc power source is first attached, I think we get a voltage impulse which basically behaves like ac.

@randomnobody660

Жыл бұрын

@@matsaks Skin effect for ac is talking about current density, as in on average electrons on nearer the surface move faster than those in the center. I think they are talking about a similar "skin effect" for charge density here?

@PuerRidcully

Жыл бұрын

Does Veritasium guy have any science background education?

@thalesagricola2827

Жыл бұрын

@@PuerRidcully yes, he is a physicist

In every case, it is both the magnetic fields and the electrons that carry the potential and kinetic energy of the circuit, in as far as the EMF field can not be separated from the electron field and its current flow. The EMF field arises from the flow of electrons, either in a wire loop circuit or in free space (as in an arc). Each electron charge (e) at rest, possesses it's own elector-static field. An electron's charge field arises from the electron's rotational angular momentum. The electron’s angular momentum is weakly coupled to the space-time continuum, by the 5th elemental force:: the string-let wave coupling force... The slip angle of the string-let wave coupling between the space-time continuum and the electron’s angular momentum field allows the electron to continue to spin infinitely. The electron's coupling pulls the local space-time field around itself, creating a finite warped zone around the electron. No one is completely correct. The complete answer can only be found by studying simplified Newton quantum mechanics atomic QCD theory. But a close approximation can be known from transistor junction theory, where it conveys the idea that electrons and holes exchange places during current flow... The electrons are flowing into the atomic holes in the outer atomic conductive bands. And each atomic hole/electron is moving down the wire (conductor) at the speed of light. Each atom is feeling the force of the applied voltage basically instantaneously at the speed (c) of light. Each negative electron is pushing and each positive hole is pulling on the next atom, due to the collective voltage potential difference between the positive and negative battery electrode terminals. One issue with Eric's detail is that he is confusing higher frequency currents with low frequency DC and 60 Hz AC currents. For any given circuit, the atomic impedance of any cross section of the wire or component determines the local current flow at the atomic level. With low frequency currents, the electrons and holes are moving through the complete wire cross section, where the resistance of the local atomic bands involved in the exchange of holes and electrons determines the quantity of local current flow in that cross section of the wire (conductor).

Awesomely FUN as well as nuanced & HELPFUL interaction between the two Wonderfully Charged Fields known as ElectroBOOM / Mehdi and Veritasium / Derek respectively !!! BRAVO !!!

We've already seen from Derek's 2nd video, and AlphaPhoenix's video, that the "instant" effect on the light bulb after 1m/c is a weak voltage, and then the full power is delivered when the electricity has time to go all the way around the wire. I think the best explanation is that yes, the energy flows through the field, but that field is a lot stronger when it's carried by surface charges over small, atomic scale distances, rather than the 1/r^2 effects over the gap between the wires. The wire allows the field's strength to remain constant over its length, so effectively the distance becomes zero once the field propagates around the length of the loop.

@leonhardtkristensen4093

Жыл бұрын

I believe you are right. I believe that the initial pulse is in fact a radio (wireless) transmission of third harmonics generated by creating the square pulse switching on the DC is generating.

@g6zyd

Жыл бұрын

@@leonhardtkristensen4093 The transmission is caused by the "change" in state as you suggest and as there is effectively only one change at DC then there is only one "pulse" of energy jumping the gap "aka radio transmission" with the inverse square law determining the "size" of the pulse received on the "receiving" antenna (other wire).

@leonhardtkristensen4093

Жыл бұрын

@@g6zyd I believe that any turning on of a DC can also be seen as the beginning of a square wave with a very low frequency. Square waves can be generated by adding odd harmonics of the main frequency to it. 3 harmonics 1/3 value, 5 1/5 value etc. If there is any capacity and inductance (the wire does have that) then a voltage can not jump momentarily. You are right that any radio transmission falls in energy by the square of the distance but the second wire with the lamp is tuned close to the same as the first wire and voltages in tuned wires can become much higher than in an untuned circuit. it would be interesting to test a circuit where the second wire was moved 2 meters back but the lamp still a 1 meter.

I am so happy I chose Mechanical Engineering in college rather than Electrical, as after watching you two's videos all my knowledge about electricity would have effed up.

@Ikantspell4

Жыл бұрын

Physics graduate here. Yourur material science explanations are imperfect and I learned some fancy Hameltonian math to better describe dynamics. Orher than maybe not being 100% on every detail engineers are much better trained. You actually learn how to apply stuff way better. I got a degree in Physics and get some of the nitpicks but I never learned the how to part, not like real engineers. I couldn't pass the PE exam and I wouldn't claim to be able. There's a pedantic problem with lots of engineering descriptions. There's no actual problem with not understanding some of these points. The trade off is you actually learn a bunch about how to use/do stuff.

@alistairmurray626

Жыл бұрын

Electrical components can be modelled the same as a mechanical components, e.g a mass on a spring and pneumatic damper behaves the same way as a resistor and a capacitor in a circuit. all engineering fields are more closely related than we think.

@aksajsharma4684

Жыл бұрын

@@Ikantspell4 ​ Don't get me wrong. I love these new amendments in understanding of a basic concept. And yes, as you said, the trade off is to actually learn more stuff, but I think it's a trade off (or let's just put it as a challenge) for scientists. For an engineer it's an opportunity rather than trade off to learn something new which is why the most minute of the details are of a great concern for us. Each opportunity that gives a greater output is what we focus on, as you said, with our explanations not being 100% on every detail.

@aksajsharma4684

Жыл бұрын

@@alistairmurray626 We learn Heat Transfer with electrical analogy : Temp. diff being same as potential diff., Heat being the same as current, and thermal resistance being the same as electrical resistance, and voila, ohm's law works on heat transfer. Same analogy can be applied for flow of water through pipe.

@Ikantspell4

Жыл бұрын

@@aksajsharma4684 not sure I really think it's so important. Physics students like I was take E&M. In E&m we calculate and derive this stuff so it's not as much as a "gotcha" moment for us like it is for enginerds. Other than the "gotcha" moment I don't think is a big deal. Every year at my university this problem was assigned to engineering students taking physics, every year was confusing, and mostly they all went on to forget it and actually learn how to use electrical models. Here I am with a good understanding of the first principle rules but no applied skill and not working in a field where it matters. It's about time when physics nerds say " um actually the actual physical phenomenon is more like this:" The enginerds say " um actually I use this model and made a cool thing work" knowledge only adds and never takes away but maybe knowing such pedantic nuanced quirks is pretty close to useless.

Near field and far field EM radiation with RF antennas are a thing, so perhaps that applies at DC with extremely small field space in a conductor. You also have to take into account conductor skin effect which is more pronounced as you increase frequency.

Just a truly great video. Not antagonistic, just a legitimate, interesting discussion.