Finally a explanation that's understandable, considers the whole system and the effects of regulations!

@adarsh6408

Жыл бұрын

While the front is touching the ground due to downforce, but if there is a air flow at the rear of the car just close to diffuser so will it push the rear of the car down and front up due to downforce because the underbody of F1 car is tilted down at the front and lifted up from rear

@adarsh6408

Жыл бұрын

Please tell

To a greater or lesser extent the teams have followed different design philosophies. Some saw the new regulations focused on ground effect, stripping away the power of the front wing & Y-250 and others saw a reduction in upper & front body downforce generation balanced by additional ground effect. The teams that saw upper body downforce generation as still very important and not just ‘drag’ & maximising every small downforce building areas across the car found porpoising less destructive to their performance. Which is why you see a convergence in upper body work in the whole field happening throughout the year. Its really fascinating that at the front there are three teams with different engines that have three different approaches to their floor concept in how to handle airflow and expansion. These concepts appear to be sensitive to porpoising in very different ways and the variations in tracks change the performance differences between these cars to the point were the gaps close and overlap. A good start for the new regulations, but resolving the limits teams are allowed to porpoise is going to be important. On the inertias, these components have been removed for the ‘simplicity’ of compliance testing, as the FIA said it was not possible for them to distinguish between the action of inertias and (re)active suspension. More complex (expensive) inertias would tend to behave like active suspension and their development run counter to the cost cap. Its possible these may be reappearing as a standardised part given the focus on ride-height control and ride-quality for the drivers. Personally I’m enjoying seeing cars that are hard to control pitting on to cold tires so stint pace and the “undercut” now needs more driver skill input than a spreadsheet and we’re hearing arguments on the radio over strategy because the computer doesn’t necessarily have the correct parameters to predict the race anymore.

Hey everyone, hope you enjoy the video! Just a reminder that the JKF Racecar Aero Course is on sale for one more week over at courses.jkfaero.com/courses/race-car-aerodynamics-the-definitive-course

Thanks for doing these. I think your videos are still the best technical racing videos on KZread and the only way to get a little more in-depth explanations in a short amount of time.

Another great informative video. I would be interested in how you go about designing new parts, what software the f1 teams use and what a typical design to implementation process is.

This is part of why I love formula 1. Thank you for doing these videos Kyle. It’s all way more involved than what I understand, but it’s fascinating to me.

@Argosh

Жыл бұрын

It's so nice to know that engineering enthusiasts are still there despite fom trying to dumb it down.

Hey Kyle, apologies if this is already addressed in this video, but I was curious to hear your thoughts on the flexible floors and sliding planks controversies that are popping up recently

@fstasfck300

Жыл бұрын

It isn't, I also would like to know more about that

Your channel is pure gold.

Great video, Kyle. Excellent explanation.

I'd also be interested in a video about the aerodynamics of the cooling inlets, outlets, louvers and ducts. Maybe one on all the types of sensors as well.

@lizvaughan3

Жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/iGtrkpmzdbufiJc.html

Wow this was fascinating. Great job!

Brilliant video as always!

That was very informative. Thank you so much!

Great video, thanks a lot 👏👏

Wow! This is explained very very clear.

I'd love to get your thoughts on the new McMurtreiy, even to just point out some details the average punter wouldn't notice.

Why would the FIA want to control so tightly what you can do in a wind tunnel? Thye already have wind tunnel time limits (or numbers of simulations run), why do they need to control how fast you can move the car up and down? They couldn't have made it harder to solve the porpoising issue if they tried.

@zlm001

Жыл бұрын

I'd like to know this as well. The only thing I can think of is maybe the cost of upgrading to one that does move that quickly and accurately while providing accurate measurements.

Very good job. Thanks

YAS !@! i have been waiting for this video. thank you.

What i hate the most about the new rules is the suspension simplification, if it were just like other years the cars would run lot better plus those were already well developed suspensions so i imagine they would cost as much to keep em running

Loving this channel as always Kyle… being an F1 fan since I was a kid (though was a mick doohan fan) but after watching Days Of Thunder 😅 got hooked on cars and Ayrton Senna It continued as the more I learn about things the more I see how it relates to our cars and racing! To this day I do enjoy engine builds and racecar builds with the big reason being aero and physics are constant and improving around it is something I find fun Thanks for this video And Ofcourse the “air curtain” one too!

Show us a smile, Kyle. Thanks for your hard work :)

Maybe some videos about aero on gt3 cars would be great... also talking about how to change height and rear wing on Acc 😅

Any plans on discussing the proposed Active Aero for 2026 or do you think it's better to wait and see what they have planned? Would be awesome to see a plausible way they could implement it...

That was an incredibly fascinating and insightful breakdown of the bigger picture.

Adrian Newey was in an f1 design position last time ground effects were allowed. So is it fair to say he had seen porpoising happenoing before, and remembered how to minimise it. Hence the Red Bull being less effected.

Fantastic video Kyle. If possible, can you do a video detailing floor edge design and how it influences airflow and can reduce or eliminate porpoising?

Thanks!

Kyle, you stopped posting and Merc started to get faster so I put 2 and 2 together and assumed Toto gave you a call 😂

after seeing those computer images with highlighted part I am really curious of how a F1 car is developed. I mean you hear commentators say the RB car is Adrian Neweys car but is it him that draws or create the whole car and then people makes everything from his drawing? Or are there one department for every part and Newey just signs the "ok"? Because it sounds crazy to think one person is a able to come up with all the clever solutions in an F1 car or maybe that is the case? I would be very happy if a video could be made explaining how they come up and make a new car!

Wow, very technical. I did not follow all of the info, maybe if I watch it a few more times. If the flexible floor board is true, it seems like the best solution.

hi kyle - love your content... after your report aout the peugot - could you talk and compare about hte new Hypercars and LMdh cars coming? BMW, Porsche Ferrrari, etc. THX anyway for all you stuff - greeting from switzerland

Looking good Kyle! You lost me a bit with the graphs, but man, you know your stuff!

Great explanation! Was the 2022 car based on the Alfa Romeo? It definitely looks like it

Great video. I'd love to see how you built these models in fusion360(?) And your surfacing techniques.

Happy to see your work here, Thanks. I have been watching the "progress" of F1 for 60 yrs and your insight to the crushing ignorance of the regs is very enlightening. Innovation to solve problems is fundamentally the purvue of design and regulations have gone beyond their scope when delving into how testing can be done. Regs are clearly going to make the sport more expensive and promote more operation outside the rules. All limits are to be pushed in F1, it is the nature of the sport. That is what keeps it interesting and drives competition. BTW: I hate safety cars and NASCAR style destruction of implementing a race strategy. Not F1 at all.

Love the thumbnail 😂

Could you make a video specifically on barge boards? Thanks!

I don't think the absence of inerters would be much of an issue this year if the weight limit wasn't so difficult to get down to, fundamentally they just add inertia so you could get the same effect with a few weights in your brake package, but you can get the same inertial effect with less mass from an inerter

Curious how the purported 6mm of plank movement relates to rear tire wake fouling the diffuser.

Kyle, I would like it if you made a video about the airflow around the rotating wheels of race cars during travel and effective ways to manage it. ^^ It seems to me that many CFD results scattered across the Internet neglect the fact that the wheels are turning during travel. I want to know if doing so is a mistake or if being efficient with the modeling.

I have a question regarding the floor central section. If we take that piece in isolation and apply what we know about diffusers. We can imagine air infilling the low pressure left behind by the rear of the central section acting as it's own diffuser. If that section is wider at the kick up point, wouldn't it create a stronger suction peak? It would essentially be increasing the lateral surface area right where the pressure is lowest. Have you noticed that Mercedes has a very narrow cigar shaped central section, with no little cutouts, while Ferrari and Red Bull both have narrow leading edges and wide trailing edges. McLaren has just a wide skim board type central section. Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren all have those little cutouts you see on surf boards. That central section pitches and yaws and is basically surfing on a boundary layer of laminar air. All CFD I've seen shows very laminar and streamlined flow in that central section, so perhaps there is a lot of untapped potential there. Although, I imagine making changes there depends heavily on how the car is packaged above.

Hi Kyle Apologies if have covered it in your recent videos. I hoping you could cover an educated guess as to why the Merc concept seems to be a lot more dragy than the RB for instance?

Hey Kyle, love these videos, been watching for a long while now. Could a solution to the issue, or a help be making the lower rear wheel winglets go to the ground or near to the ground? I know this would mean a change in the rules, but would it help teams deal with the issue? My thoughts are this would act as a fence to the wheel wake and stop it being ingested by the diffuser. also as these are mounted to the wheels they would travel up and down with the wheels and keep a more constant gap to the ground rather than something suspended from the chassis?

@namename3130

Жыл бұрын

I think the diffuser sidewall is more the barrier to the wheel wake, as far as i can see all the wheel winglets are upwashing which i dont think would suggest the teams are using them to limit wheel wake much.

@Michallote

Жыл бұрын

I think the most likely thing is to allow progressively for more control on the suspension side. There are many mechanical devices that if allowed would dampen out oscillations, and it need not be full blown active suspension. All drivers say that they run the stiffest cars ever. It is very painful on the spine, just allow for more goddamn suspension configurations that specifically address oscillations

@namename3130

Жыл бұрын

@@Michallote ah but they were band for simplicity, isnt porpoising so simple!

@weevilsnitz

Жыл бұрын

Ultimately, that's what fixing porpoising is going to take - changing the rules. It doesn't mean changing the main rulebase that got us here, but tweaking it to fix what isn't working, and that's been done during every era.

Right. Couple things come to mind that there are hundreds of wind tunnels accross the world. And prob hundreds that we don't know of in countries we don't expect. Nearly all new car designs are tested in a wind tunnell as well. Also, for a team like Mercedes that are a mutli billion dollar company, they could prob build many wind tunnels in secret or under the guise of testing their passenger cars. Seems like there are many ways around that and quite difficult to enforce when you are dealing with billion dollar car car companies with lots of resources. Say theres some secret wind tunnel in China, South America, Canada, Africa, what stopping a team from shipping unmarked cars or model of their cars there and testing. Shoot, it doesn't need to be the complete car. You could just test the floor, side pods or individual parts separately in secret, then combine and assembled for the "legal" wind tunnel test for a small head start, etc. Just gotta think outside the box. They do it with designs, enginerring when it comes to the regulations. So I don't doubt they apply that same train of thought to everything else. I remember reading an article that said that teams who follow the regulations to the t without exploring and exploiting the gray areas, they are always the slower teams.

Hi Kyle ! What you think about reviewing the new Porsche Gt3rs aeros ?

Could you make a videa about the Zenvo rear wing?

Hey Kyle, could you please make a video on rb18 new floor philosophy because they are going for a high rake philosophy it makes me curious because at first the low rake seems to be the better idea but RBR make things work with high rake

hey, I think it would be very interesting to see how a front engine car works, in terms of aerodynamics. for example, a real race car (lmp1 or something like this) with a front engine, but not like the Nissan lmp1, more like the old Panoz lmp1, but with modern aerodynamics and modern packaging. Maybe you can do a video about it, I would be very happy!👍

Do you think a device like the renault r26 tuned mass dumper would be effective in removing or at least managing the purpoising?

very cool, I have an old book called--Inside Racing Technology" by paul haney and Jeff Braun that talks about this stuff

Your videos are like the old reg outwash: drawn out

I would love to see one team design a car according to, say, 1980s regulations. Would it look like a modern car or would it look more like the cars of the time? What would they do with much more open regs?

Can you do CFD videos?

I think they should re introduce the inerter for 2023, but it should be a spec part so teams like Mercedes and Red Bull can’t gain a unfair advantage as opposed to teams like Williams and Haas.

@ventisette.

Жыл бұрын

Haas will use the same one as Ferrari anyway. I’m not at all in favour of more standard parts.

@ASJC27

Жыл бұрын

The inerter is a fairly simple part and not actually all that expensive. IMO it should be allowed and no need to making it spec. I wouldn’t be surprised if the plain old dampers are actually more expensive for the teams than the inerter.

@hersencell6880

Жыл бұрын

@@ASJC27 i read somewhere that the inerter was a extremely complex and that Mercedes spend millions to make their version. Thats why I said spec part so no insanely unfair advantages for the top teams.

@ASJC27

Жыл бұрын

@@hersencell6880 the inerter is just a cylindrical weight mounted on a threaded rod, such that suspension movement has to spin the weight. This means whenever the suspension experiences an acceleration it has to rotationally accelerate the weight, which in turn applies an opposing acceleration to the suspension. This way it resists accelerated suspension movement. It’s very clever, but also very simple. There’s nothing there that would cost much.

@zlm001

Жыл бұрын

@@ASJC27 I don't know, you have to design something that is strong, tuned precisely, won't negatively effect other parts of the system, doesn't interfere with any other regulations, fits well inside the car, and is lightweight. So I imagine there's a lot of money going into research into the part design and manufacturing. Maybe there just saw that on the list of priorities this was lower than other suspension components, and only the top teams would spend the money on it. Just a way to help the teams get down to the costcap and minimum weight I guess.

thats what i was asking myself all the time, why didnt so many smart ppl dont see that coming? again there is a problem bc of a probably unnecessary rule written by the FIA. and that inertia piece doesn't sound as complicated to not have it. love your vids!

@TassieLorenzo

Жыл бұрын

At lot of these smart people weren't working on venturi cars in F1 or Indycar 40 years ago though, unlike some of the "old-timers" like Byrne and Newey. 😉

What CAD software's do F1 used to model their cars? I have been trying to model a car in SolidWorks and is not so easy.

Hi Kyle thanks for the video! Love your work. I have a question around 7:30 I am sure you are right but you say you get more expansion on diffuser due to outwashing wake. Isnt difussing the opposite of expanding? I mean cleaner air of higher pressure you can diffuse more rather than expand to lower pressure? Sorry I am not expert thank you

@benedictroberts678

Жыл бұрын

The diffuser let's air out from under the car, it forces air to expand outwards to help draw the flow through, like a pulling effect...I think.

@ASJC27

Жыл бұрын

Diffusing = slowing down and therefore also increasing (static) pressure. In subsonic diffusers, which is obviously what we have in cars, this requires expansion of the flow area. This may sound counterproductive (the diffuser is increasing pressure), but the thing to remember is that the pressure right at the exit of the diffuser is more or less ambient, therefore a larger pressure increase through the diffuser requires the flow to enter it at a lower pressure to still end up around ambient. So really the job of a diffuser is not to generate downforce itself, but to allow the floor ahead of it to create greater suction.

@jotabr570

Жыл бұрын

@@ASJC27 that makes sense thank you both ! I always thought of expansion as going to lower pressure and that's what confused me!

@ttiff97

Жыл бұрын

I think there is a misunderstanding of terminology. Stepping away from Benedict Roberts and ASJC27 explanations (both of which had very interesting comments as they challenged my understanding of a diffuser in terms of a race car. I love having my understanding challenged!) and going to fundamentals of fluid mechanics, there are two devices used in fluid mechanics to change fluid pressures/velocities: nozzles and diffusers. Nozzles decrease in cross sectional area along fluid flow increasing velocity (like the front of the floor, look something like this “>” flow from left to right) while diffusers increase in cross sectional area decreasing velocity (like the… diffuser.. on the car, look something like this “

Aj Hartman turned me in to you I have a small composite shop as well have you done any setups for mustang shelby gt350 if so I would love to talk and get educated on what I can do what parts I could make. If you are not to busy thank you for what you do.

Hello I have a question please Kyle.. Do you think teams will, or have to announce upgrades to their cars to the FIA which are undetectable? AKA the alleged floor scenario F and RB are being accused of. This part is unmeasured by the FIA currently therefore if they changed it how would the FIA know? Or is all development data from teams open source? Do you know what I mean?Thanks in advance 👍

i know this is out of topic but can you please explain the aerodynamic of whale tail wing on car such as ford escort?

It does say you can’t change the height that quickly for a full sized car, what about a scale model?

can you explain why everybody suddenly stopped porpoising ESP merc? thanks

What is the intention of these windtunnel limitations in the rules? My first instinct would be that because windtunnel time itself is limited, why not let the teams figure out the most efficient use of it?

@juanordonezgalban2278

Жыл бұрын

Cost cutting? Also if some team comes up with a super advanced wind tunnel that can give them an advantage

@parthupmanyu4366

Жыл бұрын

Wins tunnel limitations are in place to maintain a level playing field. Wind Tunnels are extremely expensive to operate. Therefore, if the teams are given free reign, the bigger teams will brute force their way to the front of the field by aggressive development.

@Infiltator2

Жыл бұрын

@@parthupmanyu4366 yes but with the cost cap already in place it isn’t possible. Therefore the rules are basically useless. Why narrow down the options for teams if they are controlled by the cost cap. Same counts for testing in my opinion. Why not give teams the options they want to use?

Do you know why the FIA limits the movement speed of a wind tunnel model? Is this just a cost consideration?

Why didn't they just keep the step plane? The outside edges would have been higher and there wouldn't be porpoising. If the step is large enough there shouldn't be an advantage at bringing the car lower. So it's a win-win. No aero-porpoising, no overstiff suspensions. Maybe the downforce would be less, but so what?

@Argosh

Жыл бұрын

That way you get F2 cars beating F1 cars...

@ASJC27

Жыл бұрын

They’d be ridiculously slow. Can’t have that in the pinnacle of Motorsport.

@avada0

Жыл бұрын

@@ASJC27 The Pinnacle of what? Spending, farces, political machinations, lackluster on track action?

@avada0

Жыл бұрын

@@Argosh Highly doubtful. But it would fix bouncing.

@ASJC27

Жыл бұрын

@@avada0 pinnacle as in the fastest race cars round a track, driven by the best drivers in the world. Don’t like it - no one’s holding a gun to your head. Feel free to watch regional karting at a track near you.

So wind tunnel test say 60% scale but the refs for speed equivalent of .033 is for full size, so shouldn’t the test speed be able to be increased for the scale model?

@justmy-profilename

Жыл бұрын

Speed is also scaled down for ≤ 60 % scale. Defining the oscillation-speed through its equivalent at 100 % scale, eliminates the option to circumvent the rule by testing ride height oscillations with even smaller scales. But the rule looks very outdated in times of a budget cap. It's hardly economical to spend a little bit less on testing but then having to introduce B-spec cars mid season.

It will be nice to compare f1 aero with f2. F2 seems to use quite a lot of underbody downforce. Why they do not have porposing problem ?

@zuminlair92cp

Жыл бұрын

probably because they don't generate enough downforce to overcome the suspension setup.

Do the new williams or the Aston

F1 Kyle

Porpoising was not caused by the rule change. It was caused by incomplete understanding of the rules. Red Bull interpreted the rules correctly and had no porpoising, proving it was possible to build a car compliant with the rules and working properly without porpoising.

For Austria, did it even help?

Would a level 2 college diploma in Motorsports Engineering be enough for a job at Mercedes? (Or Aston Martin)

Where are these 3D models from?

Can't teams still have rake but just run the rear skirts asymmetrically lower? I find it hard to believe that running a rake is now gone because you can still make it outwardly look as if the car has no rake when it really does by just extending the skirts at the rear. I think Red Bull is doing this; their car still has rake, just the skirts make it appear it isn't but that also has the benefit of giving more volume for the ramp up outwash area for the diffuser ie. bigger suction effect at the rear.

@mabdinur85

Жыл бұрын

BTW the inerter and suspension changes should be quantified by the FIA for how much money it would save teams because I don't buy it that the cost was the reason. Same amount of development money is involved and while springs are inherently cheaper at what magnitude of a difference does it make for the hydraulics based systems on a F1 budget ... repair damage from porpoising probably costs more when you compare it. I think the FIA on that specific reason reached too far, and as for suspension the 13inch tires were a step too far also. As for tires worth mentioning as you did in a past video are part of the suspension for a car and these new tires are less springy which probably adds to the porpoising effect.

Awesome video..you had the perfect timing to show what benefits floors flexing more than the regs intended helped a couple cars. U should of said how it helps or vise versa..u didn't need to name team names whose floors are flexing. U could of just brought up the benefits. If worried about upsetting certain demographics..if that was a reason at all..no offense please..great video though..good use of cad

How did you make this whole video without saying "ground effects"?

100% they should change those rules, it's a health and safety issue now

If teams were allowed to change the Re number of their wind tunnel testing (i assume there are regulations around that, using different scales, working fluids, range of temperaturers) how one would go about reproducing these kind of transients at lower frequencies?

@JCisHere778

Жыл бұрын

Changing Re is relatively easy and does not require other working media or cryo tunnels as we are (not yet 😉) seeing f1 cars driving close to the speed of sound. Just allow upscaled models to be tested. You'd even be lowering the oscillation frequency as Sr is constant (The oscillation velocity, however, would be constant unless you scale up the model enough to reduce the wind tunnel velocity, I guess)

It's your models in fusion? Is there any chance to get them?

f1 should just do fancars already

They just need to get rid of DRS and let teams innovate. Give max specs, let them design and work up new solutions

Mercedes: write that down!

why dont f1 cars use unsprung aero?

Why don’t indycar have the same problems with their underfloors ?

They need to start running 2 classes on the same track, Standard f1 and an unlimited class with very few regulations. Until they do something like that f1 will keep getting closer to indy car. Excitement and interest in f1 will continue to drop because the FIA's over regulations stopping innovation and entertainment and the highest level of racing.

So how did RedBull "fix" their porpoising after 2 races while Mercedes and Ferrari haven't after 9 races???

Whats Your take on this? I remember You talking about Pikes Peak before. 👍 kzread.info/dash/bejne/nGdotZSGlZvegqg.html

Why did you leave Mercedes?

Some how RedBull knew it all :/

first time ive been interested in f1 since formula e lol i never thought id see f1 cars actually overtaking again

Seems like the better way to go is run the track high, the lower until you cause the issue, the back it up and set suspension accordingly.

The FIA caused this issue. Its unsafe and dangerous and should be scrapped now! More freedom of design is the answer

Hello Kyle,I am Thanen and i am 18 years old.i am big fan of F1 and i would really like work in a F1 team.Today i got offered to study mechanical engineering (diploma) and i want to take aeronautical engineering ( Degree) but i need a guide on how to make it into F1?Hope you can help me out, @KYLE.ENGINEERS