This is a very good comparison. I've been studying LCA since years and people don't understand how capable the aircraft is for India. Few more things: the Ferry range of Tejas is 1700+ km with 2 Drop tanks. With 2 Drop tanks and 4 A2A missiles (2 Astra + 2 Python 5) the endurance should be about 1:45 - 2 Hours. The biggest thing, Tejas has 90% availability when operated from forward air bases.

@svapasin7503

6 ай бұрын

Well said!

IAF is ordering 200 jets . That itself speaks volumes about it's capabilities... As being indigenous things can be customized extensively.. mk1a is already a game changer

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

Dunia show ma burri tra fail hua ha samosa technically failure ,junk junk junk junk

@himachalispeaks6297

6 ай бұрын

Thats bull shit, we dknt have any option

@desigamer_tv3959

6 ай бұрын

​@@rajalapli3637proof hai to dikhao

@pravinmeher2036

6 ай бұрын

@@rajalapli3637 JF-17 ke J ka matlab junk.. etana bhi nahi pata uur aare hai muh uthake.. Allah Hukka bar

@pravinmeher2036

6 ай бұрын

@@himachalispeaks6297 really?? You don't seem to know anything about jets. But you definitely are an expert of analyzing shit

Very proud of HAL. I visited as a final year mechanical engineering student in 1967 December! Next year my ckass mate was Indian Institute of Science for Aeronautics Master’s degree. He went to USA for Ph.D. Joined a well known Company and had more than 200 engineers under him ! R and D chief ! Indian engineers are excellent educationally but also very hard working ! If they do encyclopedia of what Indian Engineers have contributed in terms of key research, in USA or Globally, people can then really know their impressive history ! Such publicly available Thesis in their Libraries is a key to that effort.

@rajapolmera3817

5 ай бұрын

ur taking about talented, govt recruit reserved, resluts shows like this

@enchated1847

2 ай бұрын

Ik reservations suck, but I highly doubt a person who has went through the same uni. and has went through the same training will perform much worse

That 500 km of combat radius is clearly understated and I guess done on purpose. Just look at recent example. Tejas MK1 flew 1400 km without refuelling to Dubai air show. Even if I consider 40-43% of that as the combat radius, it comes to 560-602 km.

@technicalrider6196

6 ай бұрын

Mainly made for himalayas only not for county2county mission

@debajyotidutta6795

6 ай бұрын

@@technicalrider6196 If an aircraft can do missions in Himalaya, why can't it do missions on a giraffe shaped enemy country?? What logic is this? Tejas MK1 has shown notoriously scary capability in both low slow flying and low fast flying - perfect recipe for sneaking attacks over plains and jungles.

@technicalrider6196

6 ай бұрын

@@debajyotidutta6795 of orange has vitamin C then why we need Lemon for Vitamin C😅, every thing has own properties

@debajyotidutta6795

6 ай бұрын

@@technicalrider6196 useless analogy. If the requirement is to eat directly, I'll use orange and if the requiremnt is to add taste, I'll use lemon. But if the requirement is only to extract Vitamin C, then I can use either of orange and lemon. Tejas can perform the same role in both the theaters within the same role envelope defined by its capabilities and limitations. That is why it is gradually becoming the mainstay or the main workhorse - something which can be deployed in any theatre. With Mk1A and Mk2 the envelope will only grow bigger. After TEDBF is rolled out there are high possibilities that IAF might go for an AF variant of that - which will take far less time that AMCA to be completely ready. MRFA will remain a geopolitical lolipop for atleast another 5-6 years.

@giridharkatikapalli9894

6 ай бұрын

You have not been attentive - combat radius is 500KM, flying range is 3000km. So, when the fighter goes out on a war mission assuming its about 1000-1200 km from take off it is expected to engage in fighting 300-500 km area, so that fuel for about 1200 km is left for return. Flight being lighter it can fly longer and higher. ( due to fuel consumption ( used up) and weapons unloaded. So, flying non-stop to dubai which is 1400km is EASY. WITHOUT WEAPONS it will fly longer distance than with weapons. THE FERRY RANGE IS 3000KM see video time of 2:47 . We need to listen and read things carefully and repeatedly to NOT TO MISUNDERSTAND. HOPE YOU GET IT.

Max take-off weight is now tested till 14500 kg... Ferry range is 1700km+ with 3 drop tanks... Total order size 220 (40+83+97)

@asmodeus3084

6 ай бұрын

Ferry range near 3000KM with 3 drop tanks, Practically proven when Tejas flew to singapore from India.

@doge1995

6 ай бұрын

@@asmodeus3084 there was an aerial refueling

@asmodeus3084

6 ай бұрын

@@doge1995 nah bro, there wasn't. Fun fact : Tejas IOC doesn't have refueling probe.

@unknown..38

5 ай бұрын

​@@doge1995Tejas has 3200km range without payload only 2x 1200 litre tanks and centre 800L tank. 2nd outermost pylons on both side can also carry 800L fuel + 2589kg internal . Still it will have hardpoints to 2 hardpoints to carry 500kg bombs and 2 for a2a missiles. (Highest weighing bomb of iaf for Tejas is 500kg ) It's tested for 14.7 tons max takeoff weight precisely..it's certified by military aviation certification agency of india.. Secondly initial Tejas mk1 were certified for only 13.3-13.5 tons max takeoff weight... But it never gonna fly with that configuration because it's armaments never make it reach mtow. 6560kg +2589+ fuel + full bomb load 3x bombs on each wing and central one. Which will be 3.5 tons still 2 hardpoints will have air to air missile which will never let it reach mtow of 14.7 tons. In this configuration it hardly reached 12958kg wiki says it mtow is 13.5 tons with considering pylons weight it is 13.5 tons or may be not more than 14tons now in above configuration..also 200kg passive tracking pod. Is there. Note outer mosts pylons don't carry bombs.. 14.7 tons mtow is only achieved when 5 hardpoints carry fuel tanks as 2x 1200L 2x 800 L on each and central 800L. Then only 2 pylons are left 8th pylon is there only for Pod (200kg) Still it can never reach mtow of 14.7 ton or in most mission it will never surpass 13.5 tons

Carbon fibre composite materials comprise over 56% of Tejas body & skin, which absorbs Radar waves. Tejas is in fact far stealthier than any other jet of its class.

@srinivasrao369

6 ай бұрын

Where Tejas is made in India Engines Avionics Systems R made abroad We make only tyres R

@Shrisha007

6 ай бұрын

​@@srinivasrao369bro what no check ya source again only engine is imported rest all is either assembled here or built here ik cuz the company where I am an intern is building transponders and inverters for Tejas aircraft

@MuhammadAli-255

6 ай бұрын

So will you send the jet without any weapons on its pylons? RCS of tejas doesn’t matter when it carries weapons lol.

@muhammedisshit8052

6 ай бұрын

⁠​⁠@@Shrisha007do you know why Argentina deal didn’t happen because of critical components from British industry, do you know who supplies ejection seat, refuel pod, helmet insight? Carbon fibre even helmets or bikes parts are made from it, there is no new tech in carbon fibre apart from doing fabrication works what critical components tejas has? If interns like you work on other countries will be using 6th generation fighters

@jaycdp

6 ай бұрын

We should have had at least 50 f16 /grippen because su 30 is from a different class and the mirage is not up to date. that will bring the number equal to 100 flights because these guys are lighter flights. Still better than mig 21

We are proud of DRDO, HAL, ADA scientists. Jai Hind 🇮🇳

@prakat1082

6 ай бұрын

Yes . These are the real people who struggled hard . Credit is sought to be given to other "fekus" these days .

Absolutely loved that "Papistan" note😂

@arthas7

6 ай бұрын

Pkmkb forever

Thank you, sir, for heeding my request. A fresh perspective from a knowledgeable person like you is always welcome.

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

Burri tra pitta ha salo junk samosa Dubai ma technically failure khalas grounded forever junk

@roshanchachane142

6 ай бұрын

@@rajalapli3637 Tumahara matlab J-17?

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

@@roshanchachane142mera matlab samosa teja hindutva ka junk tumara burri tra pitta ha Dubai ma technically failure jessa Australia ka hathon pitti tumari junk cricket team ,cheater salo

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

@@roshanchachane142jf17 thunder na maidan mara ha Dubai shandar performance

@roshanchachane142

6 ай бұрын

@@rajalapli3637 JF-17 was grounded na?

One advantage we may have is to induct the Tejas in very large numbers. What the Tejas may lack in firepower, could be made up by the sheer numbers.

@doge1995

6 ай бұрын

Mark1/A has 220 total order...

@bharathyadav1589

6 ай бұрын

Want some vodka?

@ajqkit7gt

6 ай бұрын

There is a old saying. Quantity has a quality of its own

@tintunbirha

6 ай бұрын

​@@ajqkit7gt This saying was of Joseph Stalin in WW2 for Russian tanks T 72.

@CatOfCulture

5 ай бұрын

​@@tintunbirhaT72?!

Most sensible comparison of fighter aircrafts. Hats off

The vital spastics show that a lot of thought based purely on physics and flying experience has been the vital factors for designing the Tejas aircraft.

6:56 Papistan 🤭😭

Very good and detailed analysis. Kudos to your efforts and bringing about various aviation factors in a simple and understandable language.

Tejas is a champ aircraft... it is inherently unstable but a series of computer programs stabilize it.... and give it a superb set of flight characteristics... it is power packed actually

@k.k.c8670

6 ай бұрын

Fly-by-wire is nothing new or super advanced

@smukerji7065

6 ай бұрын

@@k.k.c8670 yes it isnt... but I am not talking of FBW - which is operating the aerolons , rudder etc via a radio link and holds for passenger jets. Not sure if they are prevalent in fighters

@k.k.c8670

6 ай бұрын

@@smukerji7065 them what are you talking about? Lol. J10, f16, jf17 blk 3 and gripen are all unstable designs controlled by computers.

@smukerji7065

6 ай бұрын

@@k.k.c8670 may be you are more educated than many about J10, blk3 , gripen etc etc... LOL ... I am saying what I heard the designer of Tejas say -- Kota Harinarayana sir... I am not a fighter aircraft specialist like you ... sorry 😁

This is the true comparison , First time watched your video. I joined this channel,Thank you Sir 🙏

Thanks for the detailed comparison. Please make a video if possible on the Radar jamming systems on a fighter planes and the Radar capabilities in a Air Defense System like S-400 to detect and destroy the incoming objects. Who really wins?

Very nice narration. Simple and no nonesense narrative. Only facts no gimmicks.

I enjoy all of your videos.

I can share same feeling with this Tuber. We had a big discussion over how to shoot down a F-22 with J-8II when first decade of this century

@creativemaster007

6 ай бұрын

Your country didn't have flankers or migs ??

Comprehensive and factual , we need brochure of the same :)

Well explained. Thank you

CO of Dubai airshow deployment is quoted that Tejas has 900 miles (=1450kms) ferry range. So combat radius should be 580kms as per 40% thumb rule

@AbhiRajput10905

5 ай бұрын

It's a point defense fighter not a attacker like su 30s

Excellent presentation.

Sir Very informative video. Thanks.

Once they reach the MK1A standard with in-flight refueling, AESA radars and Astra BVR's - I think the LCA could take on pretty much any Pakistani fighter, and most of China's fighters as well (Except for the very best Chinese fighter jets).

which Tejas is it there are many versions of it till MK1A

What about sustained turn rate?

Well done Shastri 60k subs waiting for 1 lakh.

It's a matter of concern that we still don't have the capability to design and manufacture a turbofan engine. The power plant for the Tejas FE f414 is imported from the US. This can become a critical factor in case of conflict.

@hansikursch484

Ай бұрын

India also imports engines for trucks, tanks, howitzers, apcs, all naval engines for frigates, subs, plane engines. Only decent engines they mass produce is the helicopter engines (joint venture with 🇫🇷).

Well explained.

Nicely explained

One more important aspect is cost of plane ,would have been interesting to know the difference .

One on one dog fight will always be in context.

With all due respect to channel, I don't think WVR combat will become obsolete anytime soon which is why modern aircraft designs such as the F-22, J-20, J-10, Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen etc, still factor in high T/W ratio, tight turn capabilities, high AOA and so on. Parameters that play a crucial role in dogfight scenarios and WVR combat. Success in BVR engagements boils down to radar, stealth profile and missile effectiveness which can be easily countered if the opposing aircraft is equally capable, if not more. You need to fire multiple missiles at varying conditions to increase kill probability ratio. And if you still don't succeed, your aircraft will either need to fall back or enter the WVR engagement zone.

Very good insights. Jai Hind!!

Masterful presentation by Shiv Aroor. Tejas will make Bharat and the airforce proud with its exceptional performance and weapons versatility. Jai Hind

This guy thinks J-10 has lower RCS than J-20, someone have no idea how stealth works, lol

It’s a good start for India as India is a big consumer of defense equipment .

Thanks so much. Jai Hind. 🙏🙏🙏

Took India 30 years to come up with a 3rd Gen fighter... Genius!!

@Alice-7777

5 ай бұрын

4.5

@Fightback2023

5 ай бұрын

@@Alice-7777 never heard of a 4.5 gen fighter jet with a combat radius of 500 miles.

@dravenvea2605

5 ай бұрын

4.5 with 0 aesa radar.@@Alice-7777

@Alice-7777

5 ай бұрын

@@Fightback2023 yes

@unknown..38

5 ай бұрын

​​@@Fightback2023kindly look up what's range of f16 its fuel capacity is 3100kg Tejas has 2589kg the mk1A VARIANT . And it's a descent aircraft with modern fly by wire systems unlike jf17 with old 3gen hydro-mechanical control systems.. It has got an aesa radars with 912trms. It has most diverse & modern missile like indian BVR only missile after Japan's aim4 to have an aesa seeker which has best ECCM capabilities..that's not the point anyways it has British asraam, python 5,r73, iderby ,iderby er (dual pulse) and standard astra mk1,soon mk2(dual pulse)&mk3 variable ducted ramjet). Now also look it up this missiles are tested video is on KZread on mk3 ramjet propulsion missile.

Tejas have every costly thing but lacks a good air frame designe which is key point for a modern fighter jet.

Thanks for this Sir. Was waiting for this.

Sir, thanks for the comparison, but I do not understand why many countries which we bid to export teas ultimately choose Pakistan and South Korea aircrafts.. Is there anything lagging.

@andrewgoh2038

5 ай бұрын

Simply because other a/cs are better… Sales speaks for itself

Need to install double delta wings for better manuverability & range also needs improvwement around 30% then it'd be nicer machine.

Missed Radar Comparision which ,apart from AWACS support,is very important.

@xenon6947

2 ай бұрын

India has less AWACS than Pakistan.

Its small design and delta wings are the reason that he is best among all jets in this field

How do you compare a gripen with a tejas or the f16? Whatever helps you sleep at night

@muhammadshahidakram3764

3 ай бұрын

😂

Tejas is an interceptor. And nay be used for some ground operation. Lot of people think that bigger is better. That is incorrect. Air forces keep a variety of fighters for a variety of purposes.

Still waiting for dual engine orca

HAL should think about making it look more fierce and frightening

This commentary reminds me of UGC classes on science, run by Doordarshan in the late eighties and early nineties. And the sound is similar to that of Dr. Shashi Tharoor.

Marut failed to fulfill Airforce's expectations due to a poor engine. What was amazing is Rolls Royce was ready to sell india it's engine when it was financially stressed, but the then PM had other ideas. Today Tejas's fate hangs in a similar balance. It's all coming down to who are we willing to partner up with and spend through our nose.

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

No more samosa on sky burri tra pitta ha Dubai ma technically failure khalas junk

@devashishshukla6766

6 ай бұрын

​@@rajalapli3637fail? jf 17 "surrender" ko failure bolte h .

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

@@devashishshukla6766jf17 thunder na tum hinduo ki neend Haram ki hui ha samosa grounded ho gia pitt gia Dubai tumari cricket zaleel team ki tra

@devashishshukla6766

6 ай бұрын

@@rajalapli3637 fir hindu musalman le aae? yhi churan milta h kya tere yha? yhi sikhata h na tera majhab? andar se tum bhi jante hi honge kitne be gairat ho 😂😂. teri team ko kutta bna diya vhi sukuun de diya tha hame 🤣. bhai dhyan se sun le " ye sab chindi pana chhor kr kuch kaam kr le, pakistan isiliye peeche tha aur rhega ", abhi Israel ko hathiyaar dete hue pakda gya h pakistan aur tum hame bol rhe 😂😂.

@antiwokehuman

6 ай бұрын

Jf17? Basically china sold you their inferior products😂 thats why they don’t use it

If it’s so good - why is no other airforce ordering it?

Tejas engine is manufactured by GE/USA. Bharat should make this in India without any external dependency

At last let me tell you its not the fighter jet generation what matters but the skill of the pilot inside it

Pity you didn't include the Typhoon - just for comparison.

Quantity has its own quality. Also, it's increasingly less and less about aircraft and more and more about the weapon systems and the electronics.

Any aircraft is only as good as the pilot flying it and the airforce behind it to guide it. IAF and it's pilots have shown time and again that they compare very favorably with the best in the world. Also there is the fact that India is not an occupationary/imperial/invading force, but a defensive one with the limited aim to defend Indian territory and interests. This makes Indian defence forces virtually unbeatable in their domain. Indian army, navy and airforce are more than capable of defending India against any possible invader in the real world. Hypothetical world is a different matter altogether.

We have a long way to go...but its a good start...

Why is there no other country buying our LCA Tejas. Please buy our Jets 😢 😔 😟

Comparison @ radar, aerodynamics, ECM, ECCM, IIRST, ELOTS, DAS, material science, engines, resistance to jamming, range, operational height, fue load, weapons load out, sea level speed, hot weather speed, high altitude take off + weapons + range.

cube comparion: 2x the side, 8x is the volume

@cybersurg

6 ай бұрын

You are the first person to point out that error in the commentary 👍

Did anyone notice that papistan

Don't compare it's performance with yourself. Compare it with actual war against china in real war. Whatever you shown are just during training periods. Best or lowest efficiency can't judge now.

Nowadays anybody comes with analysis without having technical knowledge. There are 3 kinds of fighter jets: small, medium and large. How are you comparing light combat with heavy jets like J20??

You almost start off with a mathematical mistake. An object that's twice the size in each dimension has 4 times the area and 8 times the volume. The figure that you use with cubes clearly shows that there are 8 cubes and your narration says 4.

Dispite of all U explained in vedio there is a most important factor is the Pilot, how expert & capable he is.

@vlhc4642

5 ай бұрын

Indian pilots have zero experience either using or going against stealth, in real life the IAF would be annihilated by PL-15 from 200km away without ever seeing the enemy.

Tejas is not yet an operational aircraft to be compared with superb aircraft of impeccable pedigree such as the Gripen and others that were in production decades before Tejas. The fact remains that Tejas, notwithstanding its British ejector seat and US engine, is born obsolete and lacks the ceiling, range, stealth and pay load for contemporary warfare. That it is being compared, based as it is on the obsolete Mirage 2000 design, with strakes instead of canards, with other obsolete aircraft such as the F 16 proves my point. "Tech inferiority can be overcome with numbers"? Really? You are assuming a Ukrainian level callousness of Indian warrior lives as we saw at Kargil?

F16 and J10 are not “peers” of Tejas. Fighter jet can be split into three categories: Heavy fighter:Jets with two large engines (F15, Su27, F22, J20) Medium fighter: Jets with one large engine (F16, J10) or with two medium engines (Raffle, Mig29) Light fighter: Jets with one medium engine (Tejas, JF17, JAS39)

@vlhc4642

5 ай бұрын

LCA is peerless, it's in its own S teer, S stand for sh*t

All wish list cannot be fulfilled in a single given aerodynamic design . We need to compromise on various parameters for optimising our parameters of interest . J-17 ,J-10C are much improved ,on par with F16s.

What about a delta wing jet with fully equipped missiles, tanks or pods? It has no canards, once fully equipped it'll severely effect it's maneuverability thought you gonna mention it in the wing area part of your video but....... And lmao 10:56 tejas is stealthy than J20 that's it, very organic comparison hahahahah

@andrewgoh2038

5 ай бұрын

Probably so if the Teja flies upside down all the way

Well tbh the Tejas is a great jet in general but it isn't a proper jet. The mk2 Tejas will be the real deal or maybe the tedbf but Tejas is just a quick replacement for mig-21 which tells how much IAF places importance in them. But it's good for our first single engine delta wing aircraft and once the mk2 is released it will rival the jas-gripen too

LCA mk1a is already winner wait till mk2 comes on the scene few shalwar in Pindi and trousers in Beijing going to get brown 😂

Tejas not even close to these mentioned fighters. Its like trainer aircraft in development stage with very little space for internal equipments

ET, in its latest edition states about Tejas being a good plane, that "Most Indian pilots would keel over laughing. They prefer aircrafts from Russia, Europe or increasingly America". What is the real view of our pilots, and if ET is "lying", who did they interview?

tejas mk1 was shit but after mk1a its pretty much the best jet of its weight class

PAPISTAN😂😂😂

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

Jf17 thunder ki fantastic performance out junk samosa pitt gia Dubai ma technically failure sala junk junk junk

@sumeetsingh8033

6 ай бұрын

@@rajalapli3637 JF17 is intergalactic space ship...Tejas kaha se compete kr payega 😂😂😂

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

@@sumeetsingh8033jf17 na tumari sari junk airforce ko Kia tha surrender our samosa gutter ma chakla gia Dubai ma

@antiwokehuman

6 ай бұрын

@@rajalapli3637surrender? oh you mean how 93000 spineless l0ser bikharis surrendered to us.😂 holds the record for the biggest surrender in human history. You can use that chinese jumk fighter to bring back the beggars from saudi. They’ve been complaining about it. Shouldn’t anger the ummah🤣

@sumeetsingh8033

6 ай бұрын

@@rajalapli3637 that's why I said JF 17 is intergalactic... hypersonic aircraft

Papistan was spot on🤣🤣🤣

Tejas is effective in battlefield with mass deployment

Jf17 thunder is real best fighter aircraft.

tejas is much closer to a high-end training jet.😆😆😆

Nobody is taking about the map at 6:53😂😂

Twice the size means eight times the volume, not four times.

@muhammadshahidakram3764

3 ай бұрын

For sake of ease 😅

Tejas is just a khilona in compare to others

Lca small size fighter jet many other fighter jet heavy size but best Tejas

You can see the Indians trains, that is Indians quality. 😢😢😢

Thats Shakti Kapoor Teja 😂😂😂 ye teja teja kya hai,

10:49 this graph doesn’t matter because all of these jets (except j-20) will carry armaments on its wings and will hamper the RCS. Saying the Tejas is better than the J-20 in RCS is quite funny tbh.

@muhammadshahidakram3764

3 ай бұрын

The comparison is for sake of fun only 😂

Tejolal Samosa Coming Soon 2050👠💋👠👠💋🐵🦧🐒

The size does not give it any superiority when it comes to radar cross-section. The JF 17 and the LCA or any other fighters on that list will almost never be flying in a clean configuration.

without watching， if i see Tejas, it wins 100 times out of 100times, jay hind

Teja vs samosa

American F-16 Chinese J 10 France Rafael these are medium weight fighter jet and cannot compare with Tejas. Because Chinese JF17 And Indian Tejas both light weight, multirole fighter jet.

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

Paks proud JF17 thunder na maidan mar lia ha Dubai our tumara bhikario ka junk doob gia Dubai ma technically failure ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ho ho ho ho junk jessa tumari cricket team nikli junk junk junk salo pitch tampering sa jitna walo sari air nikal di tumari Australia na junk team junk samosa .junk hindutva

@rajalapli3637

6 ай бұрын

Paks jf17 thunder pori hindu terrorist airforce surrender surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrender

@antiwokehuman

6 ай бұрын

@@rajalapli3637 doesn’t really matter how good a fighter is when its flown by inbred bikhari l0sers😂

Papistan 😂😂😂😂😂😂

6:47 papistan 😂😂😂

It is believed indian tejas can beat up american and chinese 4 generation jets any time and place. 😂 All Pakistan jets are no match 🤣

Tejas 😂 really 😅

Sir, Tejas MK1A LCA is the best in its category. It's the basic interceptor and one of the smallest. It's a light combat. Airforce requires different category of Aircraft. It's like u do not use a missile against a rifle. People who are asking for comparison with F16 or J20 are stupid. They have no idea about Fighter Aircraft. Tejas MK2 would be medium combact. AMCA would be on F35

Tejas isn't a peer to any in the list except maybe the jf17.