"Children are safer at drag shows than church," isn't even trying to be funny or satire or anything. It's depressingly a real statistical fact.

@hime273

10 ай бұрын

🤣😂🤣😂

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

do you not understand the concept of "per capita" because if you knew what that word meant, you could not make this argument. the "priests diddling kids" staistic is overblown entirely and there are PLENTLY of groups, including religious groups that beat them out yearly. but you dont care about truth, you jsut parrot memes and headlines

@pageturner2958

10 ай бұрын

@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 And what about the statistics for drags shows and how they compare to the church statistics. Please give me some sources or I will assume you are wrong

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

@@pageturner2958 dont really know what you mean by "statistics for drag shows and churches" but what the DOJ and FBI do keep track of is child abusers and their professions, and yeah, catholic priests arent even the highest offending prietsts, but you werent tld to hate other religions by the bias media you consumes so you wouldnt know that, public school teachers are something 20k per year, which beats out catholic priests by a longshot and they tend to be an extremely left wing group of people. you ask me for my source, but do you have any ? besides the memes youve seen all your life ofcourse.

@acutechicken5798

10 ай бұрын

​@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 Yeah, like the church I went to as a kid, the pastor r@ped a child, and people just ignored it. Totally Christians are against child abuse while saying: "spare the rod, spoil the child", ripping off infant foreskins, and committing father-son and father-daughter r@pe. Oh yeah, and of course it's only in the most religious states of America (the deep south) that have government sponsored billboards telling parents not to fuck their own children. Hmmmm 🙄

"Half of all kids suffer physical poverty. Meanwhile, children in developed nations live in SPIRITUAL poverty." She said that as though the kids who live in developed countries are the REAL victims. The depth of Christian self-victimization is truly bottomless.

@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic

10 ай бұрын

Right? I thought that was gross.

@pjaworek6793

10 ай бұрын

Disgusting!!!! Think about it, 70% of people could be saved from religion if we just pay attention and educate kids in this age range about critical thinking.

@P-nk-m-na

10 ай бұрын

also! a lot of those kids are actually in real poverty! fuck that!

@Hexsmasher2099

10 ай бұрын

@@GeneticallyModifiedSkepticquoting Nick Fury from Spider-Man: Far from Home. _"See now that’s some bullshit…”_

@user-po2dg5jv3j

10 ай бұрын

Maybe I don't get it right, but why does God let those spiritual children live in a such bad environment? Why can't people combine economic prosperity and religion then? I don't get this concept.

"If they were done by any group who wasn't Christian, it would be considered grooming" 100% absolute truth

@craigmoye2322

10 ай бұрын

This

@Phl4.13

10 ай бұрын

Is this sarcastic? Its not Christians who are trying to "groom" its the law of God by which Christians are SUPPOSED to live.

@AGNOSTIC_incomprehensibleXIV

9 ай бұрын

@@Phl4.13 Moses was a militant child groomer who was leader of a literal army of groomers. That his god allegedly told him to do it doesn't change the fact that it's still grooming. The same goes for childhood circumcision being nonconsensual genital mutilation of children.

@Phl4.13

9 ай бұрын

@@user-xs3fr6qd1q it isnt

@Leith_Crowther

9 ай бұрын

@@Phl4.13The alleged law of God by which Christians are supposed to live is grooming. That’s the thing you’re not getting.

My family wasn’t even religious and I thought something was horribly wrong with me for liking both girls and boys. That’s how powerful compulsive heterosexuality is.

@chlq35

10 ай бұрын

Yes, there is something wrong, you have demons on you influencing you to sexual perversion. Seek help, seek Jesus. HE will set you free.

@catsmeow1630

10 ай бұрын

I’m bisexual and because of religious teachings in the church that I went to, I thought my same sex attraction was because of influence from Satan and demons and lusting after girls was also caused by Satan and demons. I finally came to realize that my sexuality is just normal and natural for me.

@DanielFleischmannJr

10 ай бұрын

If you want to call healthy heterosexuality a problem you need to get right with God

@DanielFleischmannJr

10 ай бұрын

​@@catsmeow1630It is written that the heart is deceitful above all things and that man lying with man is an abomination! The Levitical texts go on to point out that women also abandoned the natural use of the man to lust after other women. The Texts preface it by clearly mentioning that homosexual acts are a result of a culture abandoning God to worship other things or people. As people who follow God we are supposed to rise above what comes naturally to the flesh

@DanielFleischmannJr

10 ай бұрын

and yes many cases of homosexuality are caused by demonic forces. There is still time to repent if you are ready

Anyone upset about the lgbt "grooming" but not paying any attention to the absolutely horrific grooming that is "child beauty pageants" has no frigging idea what grooming is.

@elisehalflight

10 ай бұрын

As a Mexican it still confuses me how they get so upset about what they call genital mutilation when they don't even bait an eye to circumcisions being done in the regular and non consensually to literal babies

@dominominoh

10 ай бұрын

I've literally been called a groomer & pedophile even though I, myself, had "dated" a 20 year old when I was 12... Like guys, I KNOW what pedophilia is and it'd not me wanting to yeet my uterus 😭😭

@JGarner511

10 ай бұрын

@@elisehalflightcircumcision is the removal of a small piece of skin from the penis. I emphatically don’t approve, but it doesn’t ruin a man’s sexual pleasure. Genital mutilation is the removal of all or part of the female external genitalia, the labia and clitoris, with the intent of keeping her pure by reducing her ability to experience sexual pleasure. It is a hideous practice.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

good thing most people who are against the grooming are also against them.

@JosephKano

10 ай бұрын

Those abuse factories.

I was abused by a Christian Reformed pastor when I was a teenager. I didn't tell my mom because I didn't think she would believe me, and would take his side. That's how insidious this BS is. Silent no more

@NameOfRain

10 ай бұрын

The sad thing is, adults typically do. You have the mother who doesn't want to lose a romantic relationship by having to confront the abuse (so she ignores it or blames the victim), the person who doesn't want to lose a friend or have to change their beliefs about an authority figure, and the adult who just doesn't want to deal with the drama and helping the child from the abuse. Good that you're speaking out now. There's so much more freedom when you're older and can fend for yourself.

@LeafHuntress

10 ай бұрын

I'm so sorry you had to go through that & that you didn't feel you could trust your mother with it. In a village near me a church elder abused(not rape) a teenage girl. She did go to her parents, they believed her & they confronted the church. The elder claimed the then 14 yo came on to him & the church body took his side. The family had to deal with that betrayal on top of everything. But at least they had eachother, i cannot imagine being apart from my family over such an issue.

@ElleeZee289

10 ай бұрын

I was abused by a non-believing caregiver and told my mom about it. She failed to stop it because she was dealing with the sexual trauma from her own childhood.

@LeafHuntress

10 ай бұрын

@@krenkatbamon5318 Oh my goodness, are you now blaming the people who were abused by authority figures in their church? Because it reads as if you do. The people i described in my comment above were *very* devout. The whole situation caused in them their crisis of faith, it wasn't the _cause_ of it! Or are you saying that the guy who abused her wasn't christian? Because that's the "no true Scotsman fallacy." You are really a terrible person if you mean the first one, really how can you say that?

@LeafHuntress

10 ай бұрын

@@ElleeZee289 I'm sorry you were abused & even more that your mother wasn't good enough to stop it. What i take issue with is that you stressed that that person was non-believing, as if that's important. NO-ONE has said that it's _only_ religious people that abuse. While people have spoken on the hypocrisy of _some_ religious leaders to claim to have divine insight, while at the same time being perpetrators themselves, most people are appalled that a lot of abuses in religious institutions have been covered up to protect those institutions, thus compounding the sorrow. You were probably too small to seek recourse & when your mother didn't do her job to stop it, that was bad. Had you been older, you might have gone to the police or a teacher or another trusted adult & they would have worked to stop it. At least nowadays there are laws in place for mandatory research. In the case of these institutions, those that were placed in positions of trust were either abusers themselves OR they shielded the abusers, which meant extra grief for the victims & the criminals got new chances & thus the ones that should have put a stop to it, helped create more victims. All the while they claimed to do good & have the answer to life & everything.

a good friend of mine took his own life a couple years ago because he was so entrapped in Christian thinking that he couldn't accept his own homosexuality. The two parts of himself couldn't agree with each other. He couldn't bear life when he constantly felt like he was wrong for being the way he was and decided to take his life before he "messed up" in the eyes of God. So tragic, and so unnecessary. That's where my journey of questioning started and now I am here. Thank you for your perspectives.

@cuteizombi6946

4 ай бұрын

I'm so sorry for your loss

@Joe-xu8uk

Ай бұрын

I am in a similar struggle. I am sorry for your loss.

@andrewericjamesclark6808

17 күн бұрын

As terrible as it is, it does not make homosexuality right.

@karennieto1477

16 күн бұрын

I think I can sadly relate to that story mostly, there was a point where I was seriously thinking about committing that against my own life, but I think that it was my fear of hell's punishment rather than God's mercy that prevented me from doing it, imagine an inexperienced 12 YO with no one who wasn't a Christian brainwasher or an equally ignorant kid to get a bit of advice from, keeping it all for myself because I was afraid of what people could say, going back and forth from "God loves me no matter what I do, right?" to "I don't deserve God's gift I DO deserve the worst", is concerning to see is just now where I realized how deeply Christianism manipulated me and made me miserable when it was supposed to do the opposite.

@RachelHardy

15 күн бұрын

@@karennieto1477 I’m glad you pushed through 💕

I did my counseling internship at a Christian university. Whenever I had someone who was mandated to come because of “impure thoughts or actions” I would do my best to affirm their personhood, affirm their sexuality as normal, and in two cases convinced them that they might thrive more at a secular school. I just thought that was so messed up, and I was a Christian at the time. It’s so harmful, I should not have an 18 year old woman come to counseling sobbing because of the “sin of masturbation” 🙄 girl you are fine. The men teaching you that you are flawed for being sexual are evil.

@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic

10 ай бұрын

Ugh that’s awful. I was on an LPC track at my university and if I hadn’t gotten out before the internship, I would’ve had the same experience. 😭

@colorful-idiotic

10 ай бұрын

You are wonderful, I’m sure this helped a lot!

@michaelburk9171

8 ай бұрын

Well done

@markfaites

7 ай бұрын

its awesome that you stand up to that stuff and actually think that different sexuality or identity is alright, but just gonna point out one thingy: its not always men who teach that stuff because im pretty sure my mom was female😭

@dominusantonius

5 ай бұрын

You're wrong on the last part. They're most likely not evil, I REALLY doubt they had any ill intention when saying that. It's probably just their beliefs which they probably partake in.

I’m a queer teenager that was raised atheist, by two parents who came from religious trauma. You guys are amazing for this, thank you.

@Flame1500

10 ай бұрын

What a surprise that you just so happen to be born queer… Surely your upbringing and parental morals had no influence to that

@elGamiReal

10 ай бұрын

Your parents seem like good people

@alejandromagnobarrasa9244

10 ай бұрын

Everyone has a god. The only thingis people don't realize it. Religious trauma? Did your mom get acid thrown in her face for shaming the family? Was she forced to cover up in public and was beaten if her face covering happen to slip? Was your dad molested by catholic so called priest or did he see his sister or brother die in so called honor killing? If so I'm truly sorry the people who practice such things worship their own false god, satan disguising himself as the Almighty. If it was some other thing like being told something was wrong when they thought it was right or being forced to get up on Sunday or Saturday for church you really need some help defining the word trauma. I legitimately got beat by my parents like left nearly dead as a kid by my mom and left in Arizona as a kid after chasing the car. And my dad had a cane he used for more than walking that left some bruising and cuts on me, and I dont even consider any of that traumatic. But yeah if you have an open mind try with Jesus. He isnt like those that fail us. He helped me.

@thisbarbieisbored

10 ай бұрын

Religious trauma doesn't exist.

@dvmas

10 ай бұрын

​@@thisbarbieisboredstay mad

My father was a conservative man who considered himself a Christian, even though we did not go to any church. After hearing all the accounts of grooming brainwashing behavior from others, from this video, and also in this comment section, I am so grateful that my father did not insist on me going to church or church summer camps. He believed that I should be given the tools to learn and assess on my own. My father instilled in me a sense of morality that did not require religious adherence, even though he considered himself a person of faith. He passed away a few years ago, but it’s realizations like this years later that make me appreciate him more and more in my life.

@jas9574

10 ай бұрын

Damn, that's how it should be. Lots of respect for your dad. Parents can take their kids to their church and want for them to have a knowledge of their faith, but they should also encourage them to search out other faiths too in honesty to figure out for themselves what it is they want to devote or not devote their lives to.

@Lunaticfringe203

10 ай бұрын

The exact same thing for me

@Phillip-up3ip

10 ай бұрын

Same goes for me.

@ViolosD2I

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, that 4-14 window should rather be used as a "no religion" window. To teach general social behavior, responsibility and critical thought, and then let the young adults decide their path. Alas, the biggest advantages that religion brings - a comforting world view with no big open questions, an invisible friend always by your side and no fear of death - really only work if you believe them like other children's stories and never snap out of it. Not so much if you choose to follow a religion for these reasons.

@lemsip207

10 ай бұрын

​@ViolosD2I I agree. Religion should be kept out of state schools as there should be a separation of church and state. It would be difficult to legislate to keep it out of private schools. The Church of England should disestablished. The Church in Wales has already been disestablished.

I'm so grateful I discovered your channel. As a gay Nigerian deconstructing from Christianity, the things I've been encountering in your content have been extremely validating.

@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic

9 ай бұрын

I’m so glad! I’m really interested to hear about your experiences in Nigeria if you wouldn’t mind sharing some with me. My email is gmskeptic @ gmail . com (Remove the spaces)

@rickkwitkoski1976

7 ай бұрын

@walterude6323 Did you grow up in Nigeria? If so, do you still live there? How old are you? I lived in Nigeria 42 years ago. No indication of any LGBTQ at that time. I taught high school. I don't remember ever getting a question from the kids about LGBTQ.

@walterude6323

7 ай бұрын

@@rickkwitkoski1976 Hi, so yes I grew up in Nigeria and I live here too. I’m 37 years old. You lived in Nigeria 42 years ago, you say. That would mean the early 80s. I’m actually curious myself about how adult or even child gay Nigerians in that time period navigated life in Nigeria. Like you said, no one asked you about it then, because I don’t imagine it was a thing that existed in societal consciousness. Heck, my early years of discovering who I am were spent in secrecy and oftentimes thinking I was alone. I think that the anti-gay law that was passed in Nigeria in 2014 resulted in something the government and homophobic Nigerian society didn’t bargain would happen. They wanted to force further into the shadows a community that was already living in the shadows, and instead, it not only forced our existence into the consciousness of society, but started drawing us into the light as we pushed back.

@walterude6323

7 ай бұрын

@@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic Hello, I am just being aware of your response to my comment. Thank you so much for your content and for the response. I'd very much like to communicate with you on my experiences. I'll send an email shortly.

@Yah906

4 ай бұрын

As a fellow nigerian its nice seeing a queer Nigerian talking about their sexuality. Our culture can be quite homophobic and queer people face a lot of discrimination in our country. So I do hope your doing well

When I was a pre-teen I went to church camp 6 days of fun in the sun with new friends and counselers who also became friends. Came to trust everyone around me as I was away from my parents for the extended time in my life. Day 7.... Not the same.... At all. As the sun sets we were all shoved into the camp chappel. For hours they terrified us with stories of hell and how our souls were unclean. Without a break. Many of us were crying. The thought of being tortured in painful fire and eternal famnation while everyone else bathed in the soft glow of Jesus. The they extended the olive branch. Counselers with phone in hand came to us. Call your parents tell them you want saved. As an adult is ee the good cop bad cop ts tic used on children and it makes me sick. One of the kids was so scared he'd die in his sleep his parents drove the couple hours to the camp, drove back, woke up a few people in their church and they performed what I can only call an emergency baptism for him at like 3 am the night that trauma happened. Absolutely disgusting

@catdownthestreet

10 ай бұрын

That’s… awful. I wish I had more to say but I honestly don’t

@mekannatarry1929

10 ай бұрын

Jeez, if not for it being a christian camp, it would be seen as a cult. Glad you got out of it.

@Pete_xp

9 ай бұрын

Truly disgusting.

@efes5777

9 ай бұрын

What's also disgusting is atheism killing 100 million people since 1917.

@aazhie

9 ай бұрын

And these same monsters wonder why people are turning away from churches. Blind to the vileness and hate spewing festering in so many corrupted organizations...

I’m ex Muslim and LGBTQ, and I still relate to some of what you guys spoke of, I’m still not safe of having to live in my house but thank you drew, you helped a lot from me becoming an angry atheist and calmed the fire in me after leaving the religion, you’re a complete sweetheart of a human and I admire you for that. Thank you and I wish you and everyone here to be safe healthy and happy. Edit: thank you everyone for the kind words in the comments! I can not thank you enough , and it’s reassuring knowing people like me exist in larger numbers than I ever thought :) Edit 2: hey so to the few people preaching , I don’t even know what you’re talking about but I’m an atheist and I’m not interested in practicing religion like at all so please do not waste your energy :p Edit3: you guys made me cry. You’re All so sweet and I can’t be more thankful for seeing so many people being supportive and kind and loving, I’m thankful and I hope every single one of your dreams comes true in the best way possible

@pansepot1490

10 ай бұрын

👍🩷

@JesusisaMuslim

10 ай бұрын

You're a lost cause

@jouryandpink

10 ай бұрын

@@JesusisaMuslim I am a person! also it's "you're" not "your" .

@JesusisaMuslim

10 ай бұрын

@@jouryandpink You will find out on Judgement Day. The shaytaan has clearly deceived you.

@sonowbrand7824

10 ай бұрын

@@JesusisaMuslim Is that what you call people you've failed to groom? I bet you say it a lot. Honestly it's a real shame you insist on spreading hate in the name of your cult.

I lived several years in a Christian group home as a teen. One year, we were all sent to a Christian summer camp. One of the girls, who was 14 at the time, had sex with a 24 year old camp counselor on more than one occasion. We had only been back home a day or so when word had apparently gotten out and camp administrators actually came out to the group home more than 200 miles away wanting to know if it was consensual or not before deciding to pursue charges. She said it was consensual, so they didn't allow him back as a counselor, but they left any further decision to the house parents regarding pursuing charges. Not only did they not pursue charges, they blamed her and shamed her and punished her with house chores and restrictions for "causing him to stumble." While I felt sorry for her and did my best to show some support, I guess I was too young and too indoctrinated in the culture to see just how fkd up their treatment of her, and of all of us, really was.

@kurtilein3

10 ай бұрын

In Germany, if a crime is so serious, the police must act if they learn about such a crime no matter how they get the information. Like, lets say, by random chance a police officer reads your comment, and has a reason to believe that this happened in Germany, a case must be opened and an investigation must start. Is this different in the USA? Is an anonymous tip from literally anyone not enough to send this crushing down? I do not know the USA legal system. I think there may be a chance for you to blow this whole situation up by simply adding what you know about names, times and locations and using a lawyer to do an anonymous tip. This way you can decide to stay hidden behind attourney client privilege, or also you can later decide to prove that the tip came from you if that later turns out to be advantageous. Statutes of limitation can be surprisingly long, for something like this in Germany its 20 years or longer and that only starts when the victim reaches age 21. So in Germany, if the victim is not 41 years or older today, you can for sure blow up that pedophile rapists life. Even if this is too long ago, there may be more recent victims.

@lieslceleste3395

10 ай бұрын

Jeez. Of course it wasn’t consensual. That’s horrific. How could the adults in charge be this obtuse?

@woodygilson3465

10 ай бұрын

@@lieslceleste3395 Arkansas in the late 80s.

@gordonstrong5232

10 ай бұрын

A horrific but sadly, unsurprising story

@kimberly8695

10 ай бұрын

I am stunned. I hope you and she are doing better now.

This was my childhood. I remember, as a 19-year-old who just broke up with his girlfriend, talking to my best friend at the time (who was not a Christian). I made mention about how my ideal wife would be a virgin because we saved ourselves for each other. He turned to me and said, "Fuck you! What the fuck makes you think there is more honor or holiness in being someone's first time than in being someone's second chance?!" and he stormed off. That was the first honest and real fracture in my blind faith in how I was raised. I owe him more than he knows!

@andynonymous6769

9 ай бұрын

As an atheist I don't really see the problem with having that as an ideal. I mean, as long as you didn't make it a "rules for thee but not for me" kind of standard. If it's fine for you not to be a virgin but disgusting if she isn't, that's toxic. And as long as you didn't look down on people who don't care about virginity. If it was just a personal preference, then whatever

@sidstovell2177

7 ай бұрын

Jeez!!

@michaelcherokee8906

7 ай бұрын

There's nothing wrong with wanting a virgin wife really. Your friend was out of life for yelling at you and leaving.

@angusmcculloch6653

6 ай бұрын

19 isn't childhood, brah

@fawnieee

4 ай бұрын

​​@@andynonymous6769 the thing is, the people who demand their long term partner (and they are usually men making these demands), never saved themselves in the first place. Its sickening, but i see so many male podcasters that demand they should have a woman whos completely inexperienced while said males appendage might have well have been the community bike. While i don't particularly care if its two people making that promise, i seldom see that sort of circumstance. Its usually just men who have slept with countless women thinking they're entitled to an inedperienced woman because of reason xyz (because men and women are different, because womens anatomy permanently "change" when she was with another man despite not even giving birth can stretch her privates out, blah blah blah). Whenever i see someone demand an inexperienced person, its almost always a man that believes in the "rules for thee and not for me", and he has no interest in being fair towards her and satsifying her.

Ex Catholic here, wanted to speak on the "music priming you to be emotional thing." A lot of the "musical" parts of the service tended to be chanting, but we also had more traditional choir songs at my main church. Another church had a contemporary music mass, where they DID have that big rock band, so they do exist. However, even just the traditional choir stuff worked in making people emotional.. there was a song with the refrajn "my god, my god, why have you abandoned me?" When I was little, that song made me feel disgusting and like God was the only thing that could save me. That crap works on everyone and it's super manipulative

@karen23826

9 ай бұрын

I visited Germany in my twenties, one weekend there was a music festival and a full symphony with a choir performed while a bunch of us stood in the cathedral. That was one of the most amazing expiences ive ever had. Those cathedrals had the acoustics designed so well you thought you were in the music. Is it any wonder the dark ages lasted so long. Those cathedrals didn’t need bands, chanting and singing would have been more than enough.

@michaelburk9171

8 ай бұрын

Some of my family members attend a Pentecostal church. They have the full rockin praise music. Standing, Clapping, and singing along with very simple lyrics. Like "praise him" over n over again. They get all fired up

@winglt3

8 ай бұрын

Tbh, some Christian music is fire. Im not Christian, but my family is and we went to see a King and Country concert once, great time, and pretty good music that isn't, "you'll go to hell if you don't believe in god"

@michaelcherokee8906

7 ай бұрын

To be truthful, you do need a perfect intercessor to save you. You, me, and everyone else, are all flawed, and need redeemed, and only the God of Abraham and Isaac and Israel is perfect. A bit of self-disgust is justified, sorry to say. Sin IS disgusting. But youre redeemable and worthwhile.

@michaelburk9171

7 ай бұрын

@@michaelcherokee8906 Christianity is not special or unique. Most religions teach something similar.

Thank you for affirming that the lack of education and demonization of queer people is abuse. its my deepest trauma.

@SevenQs

10 ай бұрын

@@kingofthecrows8802 Weird to compare traumas but okay

@martintrollope9383

10 ай бұрын

My trauma too. 🫂

@Ircy2012

10 ай бұрын

@kingofthecrows8802 The thing about trauma that many get wrong (even doctors for a long time) is that it's not objective. It's not "it has to be this bad to be trauma and leave consequences". What matters is that you feel utterly afraid and utterly powerless. For some people this might be a natural disaster for others something that might seem fully neutral to a casual observer. I was dealing with what i later understood to be cptsd for a few years. Messed me up, thinking of certain things would just overwhelm me with this out of bounds extreme feeling of fear and powerlessness. It was crippling. It dominated my life and it felt like my mind was falling apart. I knew it was irrational but i had no rational control over it. Turns out we don't control emotions, they control us. I eventually figured it out with a book. It described how it happened how it was manifesting and how i can try to deal with it. Now there are still some occasional problems but overall my life and my mind are under control. And knowing what it is i can clearly say it was started by the utter demonization of queer people that is currently going on combined with the powelessness to stop it while seeing those close to me buy into it. Ultimately I had it "good". I'm an adult. I managed to separate myself from some enviroments that were triggering and keeping me in that panicked state and find solutions that worked rather quickly. I also got antidepressants because without them even thinking about the stuff that i needed to address would break me mentally so much i would get nowhere. But it's a documented thing. That demonization destroys people's lives or parts of them.

@boianko

10 ай бұрын

@@Ircy2012 CPTSD is just awful, I suffer from it was well. As time went on it felt like it chipped away at my confidence, ability to trust others and overall mental state. When one of the sources of my trauma bubbled up to the surface a few years ago due to some family problems it completely wrecked me. I was consistently depressed, thought of myself as nothing and was suicidal. I thankfully got therapy, but the damage to my life isn't at all fully healed. Neglect and abuse, as well as anti-lgbt rhetoric are still very much something people will overlook and something that people don't take seriously enough, especially in some parts of the world like my home country.

@Ircy2012

10 ай бұрын

@@boianko Oh wow. Yeah. Reading this I remember that I completely forgot about the inability to trust others. I just felt this overwhelming fear that everyone will hurt me - even if they had good intentions - and I had no way to deal with that hurt. I wish you more healing in your life, may it one day be free of that horror and it's effects and if that's not possible may it just slightly inconvenience you from time to time but nothing worse.

I’m currently navigating a very difficult situation with my parents in regards to their liberal use of grooming and indoctrination. As a gay man trying to defend my existence from my angry evangelical parents, I really needed this video and commentary. Thank you!

@goldenageofdinosaurs7192

10 ай бұрын

Hang in there! I’m so sorry you have to deal with that😔

@OceanusHelios

10 ай бұрын

You have a right to be you. That stands in the face of religion's goal in the first place. The goal of religion is to get you to submit. I do not have anything against submission but I have a problem with coercion always. When they say you should submit to god they are lying. What they mean is they want you submitting to them and the church leaders. There are no churches innocent of this and the bible is not an innocent book.

@nasonguy

10 ай бұрын

Yo man, hang in there. I hope you are in a place to work with an affirming therapist.

@notedeep1160

10 ай бұрын

⁠@@nasonguy I am! My therapist is actually the one who got me to watch this channel haha. He’s great

@littlebitofhope1489

10 ай бұрын

You don't need to defend yourself. There is nothing to defend. Your existence is just as valuable as anyone else. Deprogramming someone who has been "groomed" like your parents have is very hard. Maybe this will help: Religion activates the same regions of the brain that addiction does. So in reality that is what you are dealing with. An addiction to the internal drugs that religion gives them a hit of. They are addicts, and need to be treated the same way. Maybe a group for children of addicts would be useful to you.

I'm an exvangelical who is still deconstructing my childhood and religious experience. I am privileged to say that I was not harmed physically in any way. However, I've always had lingering feelings that there were abusive practices or ideologies instilled in me at a young age that I didn't have the language for, making them harder to discover in myself and uproot. Thank you guys so much for making this video and helping me identify so much of my childhood experience. I'm seriously a huge fan of you both, keep up the amazing work

@pridan94

10 ай бұрын

Stay strong and all the best

I'm a Christian and appreciate what y'all are doing. Keep speaking your truths and keep challenging the status quo.

@yes55504

10 ай бұрын

You're not a Christian

@spadinnerxylaphone2622

10 ай бұрын

@@yes55504 I believe in Jesus Christ, Son of God maker of Heaven and Earth; and in him crucified and come again; and I make an effort to follow his example and have a relationship with him. Yes, I'm a Christian.

@SamanthaLaurier

10 ай бұрын

Wow, a good Christian in the wild. I'm impressed.

@yes55504

10 ай бұрын

@PeterYT123 read Roman's chapter 1. Also Jesus did address it, He said in the beginning it was meant to be a man and woman permanently in marriage. Since Jesus said this, it automatically tells us that same sex relationships, sexual immorality and everything outside biblical marriage in a sexual way is a sin. Get a grip homie.

@yes55504

10 ай бұрын

@@SamanthaLaurier no, you just hate truth

I was groomed to be an obedient baby making machine. Even though I'm on the other side of that now, it was still a gut wrenching process to come to terms that I still have value as a person without a family of my own. My family still treats me as a failure though. I'm slowly cutting them out of my life.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

human beings naturally want to create other human beings, remove yourself from the politicals and all the brainwashing youve recieved from the other side (you' arent free, youve only been brainwashed by a different group) and look at it objectively, every creature on this planet wants to reproduce and continue its bloodline, your parents arent unreasonable for wanting you to do so.

@beetlebob4675

10 ай бұрын

​@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 That's fucking rude

@midnightsan9917

10 ай бұрын

I feel this

@sidstovell2177

7 ай бұрын

Best wishes for your future.

@robertedwards909

12 күн бұрын

So you regret having your children? What was your alternative. I have a news flash you weren't going to win the noble Prize.

Growing up Mormon (Wiccan now), they LITERALLY said that they needed to groom the young women (12-17 year old girls) into wives that would obey their husbands. She agreed that it was grooming, but said it was "good grooming". *eyeroll*

@Envy_May

10 ай бұрын

they're not against control, it's more like they see everything as control, and want _their_ control to be the only kind

@candicelong7310

10 ай бұрын

Yes! I've heard that sentiment as well. They excuse it as being acceptable, because they view it as saving someone from hell-fire. If they feel a duty to save them, they're going to do so by ANY means necessary, using brainwashing and manipulation if need be.

@melissapinol7279

10 ай бұрын

I am a former Evangelical Christian, I was raped and sexually abused by my "Christian" ex husband. I too am now a Wiccan, and I think it's the safest community for women and children that I've ever seen. In 35 years we had only one man, a seeker in the open circle, try to behave inappropriately with a child. We booted him out and called the police. He spent time in jail.

@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana

10 ай бұрын

I love that Mormons at least have greater self honesty about what they are currently doing.

@lilurri

10 ай бұрын

@@melissapinol7279 agreed. And for members of the LGBTQIA+ community. I am one.

I grew up mormon, and I was absolutely being groomed for leadership within the church by many of my leaders. This happens to many young men and some of them develop pretty serious savior complexes. A number of them developed a sense that they are the spiritual successor of Joseph Smith and ended up starting extremist, fundamentalist offshoots where they overtly abused women and children under their influence. Some of them murdered anyone they felt was getting in the way of their "calling."

@hrv4908

10 ай бұрын

Sounds like a lot of B.S. Allegations like that require proof.

@vladimirazubcekova7727

8 ай бұрын

@@hrv4908 no one forces you to believe it

@hrv4908

8 ай бұрын

​@@vladimirazubcekova7727You're preaching to the choir.

@vladimirazubcekova7727

8 ай бұрын

@@hrv4908 no I'm not

@hrv4908

8 ай бұрын

@@vladimirazubcekova7727 Yes, you are, because I know that no one can force me to believe things, or not.

Growing up, I really did believe that sexuality was a choice and people were choosing to be gay, because I definitely chose to be straight. Turns out I’m bisexual. I didn’t come to terms with that until my late 30s, not just for religious reasons but after that it was about the bisexual stereotypes…which is why we need to include these talks in sex education in the home and at school.

@Cool-Vest_Leo

10 ай бұрын

Huh. What an ironic yet deeply moving story.

@nitzanshu4695

7 ай бұрын

I mean, i can see why they would think its a choice, they hope they'll be able to join the cool bi gang :p Yeah, we need more bi representation

@fuge74

6 ай бұрын

It is a choice, you are just lieing to yourself. there is some deep seeded idea that you caught hold of that is a logical fallacy. I wouldn't know where it is, but as you have abandoned Christianity I don't think you would listen to reason.

@nitzanshu4695

6 ай бұрын

@@fuge74 so you're saying me being straight is a choice too? Alright, be gay for a day then. You dont have to do anything, but try falling in love with someone from the same gender, i can assure you unless you're bisexual it wont work no matter how much you try. Many have tried before you to "straighten" themselves and it didn't work. You know, something about being gay after countless death penalties to gay people seems to say its not a choice considering how much of a bad one it would be because of Christians like you who dont have any experience in being gay or thinking about their sexuality. I suggest you to mind your own business instead of forcing ideologies on people who want to live and dont do anything to you. I guess its right what they say, No hate like Christian love. You really should learn more, everyone have their own opinions about religion, and if they didn't find Christianity to work (because it literally wants them to die) then you should leave them alone. I try to be tolerant of Christians assholes, but everytime i see a Christian person they turn out to be too interested in Lgbtqia+ people life, do you just really want to date them? Because it seems like you hate em more than murderers, never heard of a murderer getting murdered by Christians, while for gays, its too common. You ruin it for yourself.

@amazinggrapes3045

5 ай бұрын

That's usually how it works. If someone had no homosexual feelings they'd be able to see right through it because they didn't choose to be straight. But if you're bisexual, you might not realize that not everybody is, and in fact, not merely resisting homosexual temptation but just plain not interested

it’s kinda funny how the people who are most vocal about throwing the g-word around always turn out to have questionable histories of their own - “every accusation a confession” and all that

@nianbozhang9070

10 ай бұрын

As the Chinese say: a thief shouting thief

@Joshua_Froschauer

10 ай бұрын

Whom? Gay priests? Or straight cult leaders? No... LGBTQIA has more offenders than the normal straight population

@m.f.5739

10 ай бұрын

Makes perfect sense to me. A person struggling with same-sex attraction cares a lot more for other people with the same issue. It's like a therapy circle. Or, as I like to see the perspective of a Christian: If you can't make yourself sane, you might try to heal the world.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

projecting really, just making stuff up and believing its true. like a child playing make believe

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

@@nusakii1201 yeah I know right, like how gays took the one group that allowed them to live in openly in their societies and pretend those people were the hateful ones, and then they made almost every aspect of their movement designed to be nothing but a spit in the face to that one group, the only group that allowed them to live freely. its quite sad how such a hateful and vicious group has convinced themselves they were anything but.

I was forced into conversion therapy by the pentecostal church from 1986 to 1996. In that time, I was subjected to horrific psychological torture. I was also preyed on by male members of the congregation. I am a survivor, and today, I am relatively at peace. I live in Brisbane, Australia.

@randomteenageboy5002

10 ай бұрын

Sorry for your pain. Pentecostal churches are bordering on cult like behavior. Not all churches are like this.

@szymonbaranowski8184

10 ай бұрын

did you tried alternative conversation therapy elsewhere sane?

@Cledyston

10 ай бұрын

@@szymonbaranowski8184 There is no conversion therapy. Get over yourselves.

@Meeretto

10 ай бұрын

While I don't want to open old wounds I'm very curious about your experiences at the camp. Maybe you could share some like how they forced you etc. If you don't want too that's fine by any means. Good to hear you were able to heal!

@kristinabathory8870

10 ай бұрын

I am so sorry this happened to you. It is unexcusable. Sending virtual hugs from a friend a log way away. You are perfect they way you are.

In a word, that's what catholic schools are all about: grooming. You're made to believe that you are part of a distinct, and superior, culture. From the age of 5 or 6. By multiple adults of seeming authority and superior knowledge. A child is defenseless against it.

@sammykenny

10 ай бұрын

@@7ilverYou’d do better to base your options on your own personal experience than whatever your local news station or pastor is feeding you. Independent thought can be scary but it is absolutely worth it. You’re worth it, with or without perceived injustice or religion. If you need to hear this, I love you. Even though you’d have me eradicated from public life, I love you and I hope you can find your peace.

Looking back, my mother’s blind faith in anyone who said they were Christian had the potential for me being abused. I am very lucky that I did not suffer any abuse except for the neglect and religions and emotional abuse she dished out herself. I kept my own children away from her as much as possible. I was terrified that she would damage them in ways that I would not be able to fix. There was no way I would ever be able to have a conversation with my parents about any of this. They think they had/have the authority of God to to treat their children and grandchildren so horribly.

When I was growing up I was put into accountability groups where I had to confess my "sexual sins" to adult church leaders & fellow peers. It's hard to describe the shame that follows years & years of being trained that even your thoughts are equivalent to hell worthy sins. I remember waking up from wet dreams and collapsing into absolute tears out of shame for having dreamed of something sexual. It becomes even worse if you have pre-existing sexual trauma. It takes something that was already a source of significant pain and turns it into something you think you are responsible for. "It's your fault. It's all your fault." The sheer irony of them calling LGBTQ "grooming" is insane when puritan church culture exists.

@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic

10 ай бұрын

I’m sorry you had to go through that. Most of my friends growing up experienced this too and it’s disgusting.

@markofsaltburn

10 ай бұрын

I wouldn’t like to see the criminal record of the person who dreamt up that sick stunt.

@rhokesh4391

10 ай бұрын

@@thorhansen1333 Isn't that neat. Christian education makes you feel shameful for natural impulses first, then for feeling shame because it's 'self-centered', and then EVEN MORE because you can't stop feeling shame over feeling shame.

@Cardboard449

10 ай бұрын

@@thorhansen1333everyone has a different experience with faith, you had an experience that made you better, and many of the commenters here had an experience that traumatized them. It’s not as linear as “because I was helped by it, people who are harmed by it must be doing something wrong themselves.” The communities built around religion is built by people, people can be good and help through their faith, and people can be corrupted by it causing harm to others.

@rhokesh4391

10 ай бұрын

@@thorhansen1333 If your belief helped you, that's GREAT, and I'm not trying to take that away. It's just the notion that shame is supposedly 'bad' that puts my back up because it's so, so frigging dangerous.

This is so incredibly timely, given Sinead O'Conner's death report today. She faught so hard against sexual abuse in the Catholic church, even before it was popular to do so. The abuse she experienced was only exacerbated by the public's vilification of her back in the early 90s. I was in grade 8 when she tore a picture of the pope on SNL -- and what was the rumour I heard around school? That she was an evil lesbian. It was still during the height of AIDS epidemic scare and being gay or lesbian (I had never heard of the term bisexual, which is what I am) was the absolute WORST thing a person could be at my school... and a friend of mine, just months earlier, had likely killed herself because she was questioning her sexuality/identity. I look back now, and I wonder if she might have been a trans boy. Again, that language didn't even exist in the mainstream at that point, so the idea never came up. Language is important. It doesn't just allow you to express yourself -- it also allows you to think of concepts, period.

@lemsip207

10 ай бұрын

John Lydon grew up with it too as his parents were Irish. They met in Ireland and moved to London where they married. His paternal grandfather was already there. They went every Sunday to the evening service but he said it was better than watching Jess Yates on TV. He only attended Catholic state schools. He was able to spot predators among the priests and choir masters from an early age as did most other boys. So he deliberately sang badly in church so be wouldn't cajoled into joining the church choir. They couldn't get enough volunteers to join it. It's why he knew Jimmy Saville was a pedophile. There were informal networks of children warning each other about local pedophiles as the authorities wouldn't take them seriously.

@georgiyrozanov8645

10 ай бұрын

THIS the whole comment is so right and on point

@darkcnotion

10 ай бұрын

She was so based.

@GUILLOTINE_GANG

10 ай бұрын

​@@lemsip207that's so heartbreaking, the idea of children forming informal networks to help other kids not get abused. What a goddamn nightmare.

@jessejordache1869

10 ай бұрын

@@lemsip207 I didn't know that about John Lydon.

Thank you so much for making this. I’m a trans person and was groomed in every one of these ways and yet the conservatives in my life think I must have been “groomed” into being trans. It drives me nuts that I was raised in a way that was intended to “protect” me from having knowledge of queer people, i was super religious, homeschooled, the whole nine yards, I turned out trans anyways, and then the Christian’s in my life start making up theories about me being groomed just because they can’t wrap their heads around how one of theirs ended up a queer.

@Si1vercherry

3 ай бұрын

Literally... im in a private Christian school that literally cannot conceptualize that some of their students are queer and non-believers. Never really been educated on LGBTQ+ subjects until i got access to the internet.

Conversion therapy needs to be completely outlawed and criminalized. It's just a fluffy word for abuse.

The damage religious indoctrination does to children is incredibly long-lasting. If anyone needs help, there are organizations like Recovering From Religion that are doing great work in this area.

@readysoldier6799

10 ай бұрын

LGBTQ is also a religion

@chibbersthesquirrel6189

10 ай бұрын

@@readysoldier6799 "noun: religion the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods." So it's literally not, but thanks for playing. It's so weird to me when chuds try to drag people they disagree with down to their level, as if the only way to engage is to do so in the fetid muck of superstition where they can be on equal footing. The only reason a person would even say something like this is if they know that religion is bad and they're trying to do a pathetic tu quoque.

@readysoldier6799

10 ай бұрын

@@chibbersthesquirrel6189 LGBTQ is the belief that men are women. It's a religion

@quillo2747

10 ай бұрын

The LGBT ideology is just another form of religious indoctrination. The christian declares God created the earth. The LGBT zealot declares boys are girls and chemical and surgical castration is a moral good.

Reminder: Not knowing you are grooming someone and thinking you are doing the right thing, doesn’t make it not grooming or any less wrong. I know the people in my church didn’t mean to hurt me, but they did, a lot. And them not knowing what they were doing, thinking they were doing a good thing, doesn’t make it OK and doesn’t make me any less traumatized.

@DrPhilGoode

10 ай бұрын

They said all this at the beginning of the video. Almost verbatim.

@lakingpaul

10 ай бұрын

I disagree. I think intent matters in terms of how "wrong" someone's actions are. It doesn't invalidate the trauma, but it changes the perspective on how to view/treat the offender.

@DrPhilGoode

10 ай бұрын

@@lakingpaul I know it isn’t your intent to adhere to an opinion that enables abusers and abuse, however that viewpoint does exactly that. The lifelong damage and destruction that plagues a child of abuse is often overwhelming. The negative consequences do not care about intent. Parents who place their children in predatory target zones (unknowingly or ignorantly) are responsible for the multiple generations that the abuse will ultimately touch. Chances are, the parents were already part of a generational cycle of abuse to begin with. It is the parents job to protect their young children. Ignorance is NOT bliss. Exposing your child to manipulation and abuse by a church authority figure is unacceptable. If a parent placed their daughter in a rape friendly situation or circumstance, does the intent matter for her if she is raped? Does she care if it wasn’t on purpose? I understand the example is extreme but the point is the same.

@lakingpaul

10 ай бұрын

@@DrPhilGoode I'm simply saying there are indeed levels to wrongness. It is "less wrong" to do something bad when you don't know any better or when you are deceived than when you knowingly cause harm. Consequences are only a part of the equation. And though they are a big part, they aren't everything, which is why we also consider intent as a big part of our legal system.

@DrPhilGoode

10 ай бұрын

@@lakingpaul ok but this content is specifically aimed at religious and Christian based grooming.

Watching this really worried me. I identified with absolutely everything- each point rang true. Then it dawned on me the sheer magnitude of children like us groomed and conditioned by the church and christian families. It’s way to many. I was lucky. I escaped but only at 47. My life is just beginning with freedom.

As a young couple you give me hope for the younger generation. We need more youth like you two! Love you guys!

I’m sure I’m not the only one who appreciates you speaking about this topic :)

@jeanettebobby4017

10 ай бұрын

Thanks SO much for this podcast!!! Almost everything you mentioned I've experienced. 67 yrs old. Born into a VERY strong Evangelical Baptist family/church. Got totally out of religion 5 years ago but have been on my way out for decades...just sort of tried to ignore it. That didn't work. Religion destroyed my life: cognitive issues, HUGE sexual dysfunction, constant shame and guilt, lack of control, inability to connect with others, anger issues, no self esteem, inability to say NO to sexual/emotional abuse...just to name a few. Thankfully, I'm overcoming all of that! Enjoying my retirement and my supportive Athiest husband. LIFE IS FINALLY GOOD!!!!

I am one of the kids who was groomed by the messiah of the cult I was in. I was blamed for it at age 7. It was me who was the temptation. Whenever i hear a Christian of any kind go after anyone lgbt+ for doing harm to kids i get physically sick like i have the flu.

@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104

10 ай бұрын

I wonder what percentage of cults aren't about sex or power?

@Animiel1

10 ай бұрын

I do not know you, but I feel for you. Love from Italy.

@2degucitas

10 ай бұрын

​@@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104 very few, it seems

@amberkat8147

10 ай бұрын

@@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104 Maybe the Quakers and a few other religious cults? But they also strictly control sex and often have a massive power imbalance between leaders and followers and/or men and women so it's hard to say.

@NeganJeff

10 ай бұрын

Having read Justice Thomas written opinion on Lawrence and same sex marriage on believing they should be reversed causes me to fear that homosexuality and bisexuality will once again become felony sex offenses punishable by up to 20 years in prison ( archaic laws would be dusted off) and confinement in a state mental hospital (involuntary civil commitment)

I’d say a big element of grooming you didn’t mention is that parents and authorities train children to distrust and avoid relationships with those outside of their “community”, including those Christians who might disagree with their particular beliefs about Christianity. The constant othering of people leads to such an insular community that many children in higher control denominations may never interact with non-Christians until they get a job or go to a secular university. My family was kept so far from literally anyone that I didn’t make my first Christian friend until I was sixteen, and I didn’t make my first non-Christian friend until I was twenty after I had already left the church.

@Cool-Vest_Leo

10 ай бұрын

It's human nature, taken to an unhealthy extreme.

@Quartz512_

Ай бұрын

Yeah... that's LITERALLY what cults do...

I'm asexual/ demisexual and didn't know those terms in my early to mid teens, and I didn't know the term queer (apart from it being used as a slur). It was amazing to find words to describe my sexuality.

@catdownthestreet

10 ай бұрын

I’m ace too, but I am wondering how you arrived on this topic? The video isn’t exactly about sexuality- I could be wrong though, lol

My therapist was the first to point out to me that my religious indoctrination was abuse. I was completely stripped of my autonomy and intuition to the point where I still cannot trust myself, cannot experience my body fully, and did not uncover my queer identity until my mid twenties. I’ve been in the process of deconstructing for nearly 4 years but am still uncovering trauma from it every day. I am lucky to have not experienced any physical abuse and to have had parents who always encouraged me to branch out, but the church has still caused years of damage I have been left to work through. It’s truly wild how little regulation exists in that culture.

@theboombody

10 ай бұрын

I hope the LBGTQ community is striving to promote monogamy between partners. That is one thing the traditional religious literature gets right. When you find a person good enough to commit to, you need to stay with them and not leave them when things get tough. Without that mindset it is impossible to find an ultimately fulfilling relationship. You will always have to wonder if your partner is going to grow tired of you and leave for some trivial reason. The Christian community has not done a good job of following their own literature on that.

@Styxx_theFox

9 ай бұрын

​@@theboombodyshouldn't you let people just... love who they want? Let people make their own choices...

Anyone else have some of their first gay thoughts because of how much the church tried to avoid the concept of gayness? Youth Pastor: Girls in the girls cabin, boys in the boys cabin. Me: Why? Youth Pastor: To avoid any impure thoughts or behavior. Me: *instantly has "impure" thoughts towards the same sex instead*

@zerick3

10 ай бұрын

"Congratulations, you played yourself." 😂

@AtaraxianWist

10 ай бұрын

LOL new impure thoughts unlocked!

@hugofontes5708

10 ай бұрын

Accidental reverse psychology lol

@jewels3400

10 ай бұрын

The brain cannot comprehend the negative. You always have to fill it with something.

Regarding "The devil [or demons] made me do it" mentality: As a young adult (well after the movie came out), I watched Disney's Hutchback of Notre Dame and was really struck by the "Hellfire" scene. I grew up in a southern baptist church, and it was the first time I saw a scene with the person claiming to be tempted by the devil (and a religious figure) portrayed as the bad guy.

I grew up in a small town in Wyoming. There were zero black families or students, and there was zero talk of homosexuality, even in private whispers among school kids. One of my friends was gay, so obviously so looking back, but it never occurred to any of us friends that he was going through something. Crazy. I didn't even really know what "gay" was.

Holy crap, the 4-14 window video actually made me insanely indignant, its beyond hypocritical. I cant express my anger towards Christianity, a package of bs I grew up in. Its intentional and beyond defensible

@eldrickemc4602

10 ай бұрын

It's creepy, and gross

@petercoo9177

10 ай бұрын

Yep, I thought I was pretty steeped in Christian culture, and that 4-14 "ad" shocked me. Talking about "open hearts" is just code for "better get them before anybody teaches them to think critically". Because heaven forbid (pardon me) that we should let kids make up their own minds about anything.

@starscreamthecruel8026

10 ай бұрын

I had my communion at 6 but I never confirmed at 14. I was baptised as a condition for my Dad to marry Mom by order of the Pope because he would not convert to Catholism, he was Protestant. I wasnt told anything about sex (gender studies wasnt even a thing yet), the conversation didnt even come up til secondary school. I didn't know gay people existed til secondary school(all girl school) and weirdly became the Lesbian's best friend but she never did anything. I thought I was weird because I felt nothing on any level(later, like MUCH later, like just a few years ago later, I worked out I was Aro/Ace) and everyone told me it was my mental illness(BPD) causing that which was given to me by the devil because I was a willful disobediant child. It had the opposite effect, I sought out everything I could find out about the occult so I could understand why I was different from the other kids and why I kept frightening them. I went to confession at 9 terrified of my rage, asking for help and the priest threw me out of his church saying I was marked and a child of the devil. I lost my faith that time and never got it back. I recognised my Pagan mindset in my teens and it stayed with me. In trying to *protect me from evil* they drove me towards it. I later learned that the image of the devil is actually a corruption of a Greek(or is it Roman?) fertility god called Pan, who represents sexuality, drinking, and partying.

@nasonguy

10 ай бұрын

It's literal indoctrination.

@marsbars6604

10 ай бұрын

@@MonkeyDLuffy-pc9fk Aro is short for aromanticism, ace is short for asexual. Aro means little to no desire for romantic relations, ace is the same thing but for sexual relations. This is a very simplified explanation.

The irony of the current political culture war around the LGBTQ community and grooming is that it has ALWAYS been the other way around, and I can certainly speak from my own experiences on that matter. I went to Catholic school, and one of my teachers tried very hard to "groom" me into being straight. I'll call her Mrs. D. Mrs. D began suspecting I might be gay when I was only eleven, based on the suspicion that I had an "inappropriate crush". She was correct about the crush, but it was her reaction that was inappropriate. She arranged a meeting with the school psychologist, the purpose of which was not to help me process my feelings but to scare me out of having them at all. Since it was a Catholic school, this was not a secular therapist by any stretch. I don't really remember it much, just this feeling of very deep shame and wanting to disappear. And then, instead of just hating me out loud, Mrs. D actually kind of kept me under her wing for the rest of my time at that school. Even after I was no longer in her class, she operated under some deluded belief that she could "fix" me. She actually thought I was "evil", which I learned from one of the other teachers several years later, yet Mrs. D always put on an outward act of kindness towards me, constantly steering me in what she felt was the right direction. She filled my head with horrible beliefs about myself, and made me feel so ashamed and humiliated and like I couldn't talk about it to anyone. Hers is the voice of Catholic Guilt in my head that I've never fully been able to lose, even when I did eventually accept my sexuality and left the faith. Nobody "groomed" me into being queer, that's not possible. Like point two in this video, I didn't even know what it meant to be gay. They never taught us about that and I was totally in the dark, I had no idea that my crushes even were crushes, so it was very confusing. It wasn't until Mrs. D started trying to make me straight, or at least ashamed enough of myself that I'd never dare stray from the Catholic teachings, that I even figured out what being gay meant. Ironic. But she did a lot of damage in a relatively short, albeit very formative, time. It's not the LGBTQ community doing the grooming.

@dinosaysrawr

10 ай бұрын

Every conservative accusation is a confession, as the popular saying goes. I am so sorry you went through that!

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

@@dinosaysrawr not really, you guys are the ones twerking half naked in front of kids and we have sooo much video evidence to prove it.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

ofcourse they do the grooming ? anyone who knows what the term grooming actually means in this sense knows the LGBT community is hellbent on it, theyve just been delududed into thinking its not grooming, even though its the very first step to groooming and anyone will tell them. qui trying to talk to kids about sex and the groomer allegations stop, thats all.

@acutechicken5798

10 ай бұрын

​@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 Oh alright. So ripping off babies' foreskins isn't grooming, but teaching them it's ok not to be exactly the same as everyone else is? 🤣🙄🤪🤡

@JaniceLHz

10 ай бұрын

​@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 Psychology studies show that if you want to protect children from sexual abuse, it helps to be sure that they understand the basics of what sex is and the correct medical terms for parts of their anatomy. This basic knowledge gives them the tools for understanding if someone is touching them in an inappropriate way and how to describe it to safe adults. Children with no knowledge about sex are less likely to be able to recognize sexual abuse or to describe what happened in a way that adults can recognize. If you are interested, I can look up the references. Please show me a source (preferably a peer-reviewed scientific study) that shows that age-appropriate sex education is harmful or a form of grooming.

As someone who has been so deeply and wholly damaged and destroyed by Christianity, I thank you for your service. 💜

@axolotdraws9946

9 ай бұрын

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 these kinds of people sound like telemarketers except they’re trying to make you believe in a magic man in the sky

@DrachenGothik666

9 ай бұрын

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 GOD IS FUCKING IMAGINARY.

@kiedisboughen5318

9 ай бұрын

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363an utterly disgusting response to this comment. Someone says they were hurt by Christianity, and you think it's appropriate to spout your religious bs?

@DendrocnideMoroides

9 ай бұрын

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 if lust is considered a sin, then all non asexual people have lusted because that is the definition of being asexual

@f.u.m.o.5669

8 ай бұрын

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363I find it hard to believe that you guys aren't bots.

Been hooked on your shows as a practicing Christian... It's sad what these institutions do. Spirituality and faith should bring people comfort and direction. Not trauma...

Y’all are spreading such important information for those who aren’t even aware of the cycle of abuse they have been trapped in. Thank you for this!

So happy it's illegal to run 'conversion therapy' in my country! I feel sorry for those still being pressured elsewhere. *edit* I grew up in an evangelical home and my mother once told a story of how me and a group of friends on the street 'flipped the bird' at this flamboyantly gay man (I was about 8). Well apparently he followed me home and knocked on the door to confront my parents. My mother told me that at the time she had to draw on all her Godly strength to apologize before this obvious sinner, for her son's actions. She said that at the time, it was so hard to be humble to him. Then she discussed the interaction at Church on Sunday and they all prayed for him, that he would see the error of his ways and come to Christ. No one seemed to care I had yelled abuse at him. Now as an adult, I wish I could apologize to him for hurting him. Dumb church!

@onlinebusiness3527

10 ай бұрын

This is crazy how religious ideology can teach children hate. I am an ex-Muslim and I used to “pray” for LGBTQ people thinking that there were in sin 🤦🏻‍♀️. I knew other Muslim teenagers (especially boys) that would bully other guys for being gay, or harass them… (and we do not live in a Muslim country …)

I grew up in a devout Roman Catholic family and spent all my Saturdays and Sundays in some form of mass, eucharistic youth group, or religious schooling, where there was plenty of trauma to be had. I eventually escaped from organized religion in college (ironically at a Lasallian institution), but it took a long time to process and understand what had happened to me, and I feel like I'm still recovering decades later. Unfortunately, I also had some friends who were born-again late in life, who relentlessly hounded me into joining their faith, attacking my supposed "atheism" (completely unprompted) with the talking points they learned from some Christian seminar. It was just nightmarish having grown adults suddenly devolve into the childlike state I so desperately tried to escape from, brimming with naive confidence and zero sympathy for my past experience.

I was abused by the sons of the pastor at a church we attended when I was 10. When I opened up about it, my father apologized to the pastor, and there was never any justice done, nor any therapy sought out for me, other than conversion therapy until I was 18 (I'm gay, which of course was blamed on the abuse). Between the abuse, the blame, and the conversion therapy, I'm still going through real therapy to undo all of the damage that was done, and I'll be 32 this December. It's been so exhausting at times, but I keep telling myself that I deserve to live a happy and fulfilling life, so I keep going. For anyone else that's gone through any form of religious abuse, or any other form of abuse brought upon by people of authority, I wish you the best in your journey to a better future.

@bradleyswinderman7442

10 ай бұрын

Wow, we could compare experience notes...hoping you can move forward; i also have C-PTSD & am doing 1 to 2 hours of therapy sessions a week...slowly & steadily feeling less defective & broken. Take care, keep on keep'n'-on, brother!!!

@welsj91

10 ай бұрын

@@bradleyswinderman7442 Only way to get through it is one day at a time! C-PTSD has very subtle ways of creeping up, but comparing where I was 5 years ago to where I am today has shown enough improvement for me to keep trusting the process. We got this :)

@Cool-Vest_Leo

10 ай бұрын

Keep up the good work. I hope for you all to achieve an unburdened state of happiness in the future.

I'm a cis gay male, now 68yo, and raised Roman Catholic as a child. We were never taught anything about sex in school, and even at home, the only sex education I got was the mysterious appearance of a children's booklet on the mechanics of sex. My parents were extremely uncomfortable in discussing its contents, so that's all I ever learned about it. Nothing about making and maintaining relationships. The result was, I didn't even come out or get laid till my late 20s, and while my parents and brother apparently wondered if I were gay because there were never any girlfriends on the horizon, they couldn't discuss it with me, and both parents died before I came out. There was one "benefit" - because of my late exit from the closet, the AIDS epidemic was in full swing by then, so I knew enough to avoid contracting HIV. Now, I am not at all suggesting that's an "advantage" of the way I was brought up, quite the contrary. I might easily have caught HIV out of complete ignorance. I just got extremely lucky that my natural shyness kept me from experimenting earlier. This is an argument for teaching kids about sex and sexuality from the time they become ready to understand it and its implications for them. Ignorance can be lethal in more ways than one.

@VaughanMcCue

10 ай бұрын

Do you resemble the postman?

@Leszek.Rzepecki

10 ай бұрын

​@@VaughanMcCue Let me count the ways: 1 head, check 1 Torso, check. 2 arms, check. 2 legs, check. Yup, apparently I do. I don't ask what's underneath the uniform.

@redelfshotthefood8213

10 ай бұрын

Interesting. We all have our separate journeys. I’m a few years younger. I was aware of GRID while in High School. That was what they initially called HIV. So I knew sex=death. So I was very reluctant to do more than fantasize. When we moved to a big city I joined a gay youth group. But still didn’t date. I developed a crush, and that guy went on to date. Date other people. Today he’s HIV positive. I’m not. Life can be sad. Many people I knew from that era are dead. From AIDS. Even today I’m weighing the risks. Because sex=death is hard to shake when you still mourn the dead 30 years later.

@Leszek.Rzepecki

10 ай бұрын

@@redelfshotthefood8213 Yeah, GRID as an acronym was around in my time (obviously not in my school days when HIV was totally unknown or at least not recognised), but its prejudicial and dangerously misleading nature became evident as soon as straight people started catching it too. Those pesky bisexuals! At one point of my life, I had a partner, we were together for almost 12 years. We didn't discover that he was HIV positive till we'd been involved in a car crash. He had been injured and as a result got automatically tested. He'd been perfectly healthy and we'd no inkling. Obviously I then had to get tested and proved negative, so we took additional precautions after. We eventually separated for unrelated reasons, and he died rather suddenly shortly after - they thought it was maybe a reaction to some experimental therapy he'd gone on. He was a brave and unquenchable soul. I miss him still.

When you said 4-14 window, I immediately felt sick to my stomach... From the age of 13-17, I was a "summer missionary" indoctrinating children. The week-long training we had went over the 4-14 window as a way to justify why we were "ministering" to kids. That contribution to child indoctrination is one of my biggest regrets. But I have to remember that I was one of those kids once. I was just as vulnerable to believing everything that was taught, just like them.

@InfiredGardening

10 ай бұрын

Don't beat yourself up so much, you were also indoctrinated at that point and still pretty young to have been able to see the problem with what you were participating in.

@mr.lavander7145

9 ай бұрын

Good for you for having the courage to denounce it. Just like in Orwell, to ensure someone keeps believing, they make that person enforce the belief in others. It's much harder to question the faith when you're preaching every day both to kids and to yourself.

@Pete_xp

9 ай бұрын

It's okay, it's over now and it's on to better things 🥂 Religion is fading away...slowly

@aazhie

9 ай бұрын

That's like blaming one of the Dugger kids for helping raise their younger siblings. I can't imagine you were in any state to say no to church leaders, family and whoever else had authority over you.

I feel like im gonna cry. Im so angry after watching this. I really appreciate this video tho and how you two shed light on the systematic brainwashing and abuse in religious communities. Thank you for this!!

I wish I had someone to blame for my experience. When I was young I had this friend that went to church. So, to hang out, I went to church with him. Next thing you know my parents got on board and took my sister and I every Sunday AND Wednesday. It was only about 5 years later, some self hatred, and a bundle of homophobic comments that I found out that I was just doing this to myself… but not exactly. When you’re that young you grab what information you can, and I learned words like “sin” and “illness”. It’s no wonder I had these thoughts, my parents had these thoughts for so long. Now, I live out and, while I can see it’s a struggle for some in my family, I simply can’t care anymore. Well, I say that but each time I say something “fruity” my hands shake and I wish I hadn’t said it. But I’m working on that last leg of my race out of the church

@DrPhilGoode

10 ай бұрын

You do have someone to blame. Would you expose your own children to what you were exposed to? Probably not. It’s on the parents.

@PhotonBeast

7 ай бұрын

You were a young kid. To expect you to know and understand everything that was going on is unrealistic. To expect a kid to be able to make those kinds of decisions and/or to push back ESPECIALLY when your parents (people you presumably trusted) were encouraging it, is unrealistic. You were a kid.

Thank you for showing the world who the real groomers are. Hint: it’s not trans people.

@RoseNZieg

10 ай бұрын

in the cases I have seen, it's the people around trans who are the groomers. I have never seen a trans come out naturally without hearing an adult say, "she likes to play with boys. she must be a boy." as a person who hates gender stereotypes, it is very sad to see people trying to put a label on you without your consent.

@briannaodonnell2572

10 ай бұрын

@@RoseNZieg Nobody has never uttered that quote you used, as the other commenter said you're blatantly wrong.

@superspiderdum

10 ай бұрын

Its also trans ppl*

@bladerunner3314

10 ай бұрын

Thed rubes won't care

@Tespri

10 ай бұрын

Enculturation is not same as grooming. What you're doing is forcing little kids to mutilate their genitals and sterilize them permanently only to please some left winger's sausages that can't get hard without seeing something depraved.

I never heard about bisexuality when I was a kid. Not until the last 2 years of high school, when I realized something had happened to me. I was attracted to women more than men, but not exclusively to women, and I had no word for that. Some internet research gave me the words bisexual and bi along with some brief definitions. Then when we went to tour colleges and universities for me and my sister (we were in the same grade) at one of them I found some informational pamphlets about sexuality, so I took a copy of a few of them. It really helped because this wasn't some random on the internet saying stuff, this was info that was approved to be put out for students at my Dad's alma mater (spelling there?), so I felt it had some legitimacy. Also, being raised conservative Christian, I had been taught homosexuality was a choice. But I never made a conscious choice to be attracted to women, an no matter how many conservative pundits and pastors lie to my father about that it won't change the truth. Realizing that lie led me to reconsider other things, it led me to pivot from being pro-life to pro-choice, especially after some college classes that went into the history of antiabortion laws and their consequences, and to support feminism after again learning more about the history of my own country, and to eventually rejecting Christianity altogether once I did even more research and found out just how shockingly bad the so-called "evidence" is for it and how good the evidence against those claims is. At the moment I'm not sure if there's any god, multiple gods, or what. I'm an animist, a shaman who doesn't really practice, I believe in a temporary afterlife and reincarnation and that the universe itself is part of a cycle of destruction and rebirth. I would need a bit of evidence to actually believe in any particular deity though, and that doesn't seem to be about to happen. I believe monotheism is inherently destructive because it encourages division and close-mindedness, so if people want to be religious that's fine but on a society-wide level I think monotheism should be discouraged. People who want more power are always going to use religion for it- elevating themselves or their ancestors, real or imagined, to the status of divinity, which can also happen in polytheism but it's effect is diluted, claiming there's only one god and THEY speak for them or that they are in close partnership with those who do, granting those priests unique power and influence just as long as they remember who's actually in charge, mandating it, which can happen in any system but takes generations to truly take over, suppressing it, as we saw in China and the USSR, etc., although that's also not very effective. One of those is unique to monotheism and is particularly nasty as once you can convince people of that and enough of them to break away and form their own thing, it will either endure for years, leaving scandal and damaged people in it's wake, or keep going, maybe in time becoming the new mainstream religion as I believe happened with Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, etc.

I was molested...groomed by a person who had ties to a church. The church and their affiliates are the main culprits. I was an adult before I was approached,...seducuced by a man. It was just as shocking to me years later...yet I was "groomed". Boundries were still flexiable.

Thank you so much for speaking out on this topic. Lately because of this it has made me and my sibling not feel safe in our own home town, seeing as where we live is conservative, and my sibling is trans and I am gay. I hope this video reaches the right people, and we can continue to live happy without discriminatory hate.

As a queer and drag queen, I can not express how much this video means to me. When the term grooming was being thrown around, my first thought was, "Then what is it that Christians do?"

@jas9574

10 ай бұрын

Whenever christians accuse anyone LGBT of grooming someone, people should just sarcastically say "Oh, I'm not grooming them. I've teaching them to develop a firm foundation". I don't like to sound like some pseudo-intellectual for bringing up 1984 (haven't finished the book yet), but "firm foundation" being used to describe what really is indoctrination is what that book would call alt-speak. It's fluffy language to make bad things sound nice.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

well the difference is christians teach their kids to be disciplined and to be in control of their natural desires, where as you guys get half naked and twerk infront of them. you can conflate the two all you want but anyone with half a brain can see through the lies

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

@@jas9574 its crazy how you guys can look at one group teaching their kids concepts like self discipline, and hard work, and then look at another group literally twerking half naked infront of kids, and somehow think theyre remotely the same.

@acutechicken5798

10 ай бұрын

​@@kreenbopulusmichael7205so true...except when christians abuse children, it's usually not by twerking but by entering in from the behind. That and ripping off infant foreskins. I just can't get why people think christians and LGBT are even remotely the same. It is utterly absurd.

@greyklein4154

10 ай бұрын

@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 We all have inherent biases, it’s what makes us human.

I am a teacher and sex education is so important but it is being attacked these days in the US. Parents aren’t trying to tell me to stop teaching history, geography, or AP Psychology, because they understand they don’t have all the information. Why, then, do they believe sexual health is any different? Do they know different types of pregnancy complications? Why some sweat stinks and some doesn’t? Differences in chromosomes? Different methods of birth control? How to know if you have an STD and which one? How to properly care for your body and products to avoid for different parts of your body? Thank you for this video. I hate the misuse of this term, and how the new version (and old version) of the term applies more to the people who accuse others. I was taught about the 4-14 Window, btw

@Ivy-dd8bf

10 ай бұрын

Exactly this! I didn’t understand my body growing up, was super ashamed of my own natural bodily functions, and when I tried to lose my virginity at 22, I found out I had vaginismus. I think all of those years of shame and anxiety definitely contributed to it. Now I gotta slowly teach my brain that it’s safe and do all these uncomfortable exercises. I could’ve dealt with it earlier if I knew that it wasn’t normal to not be able to insert a tampon as a virgin.

@MsLemon42

10 ай бұрын

@@Ivy-dd8bf I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. I had my own shame growing up in a religious cult, but thankfully we had a health course in middle school that covered sexual health and it gave some perspective on what is within normal limits and what isn’t.

During my early teen years, I parted ways with my Christian faith. Discovering I was gay, the church and my teachers labeled my feelings as unnatural and evil. The trauma of being told that my very essence and love were unworthy in God's eyes was overwhelming. Nights were spent in tears over a love I didn't choose. The mental toll of this is still something I'm working through in my journey of recovery. I eagerly await the day when humanity embraces people, regardless of whom they love.

I really appreciate people like you debunking queerphobic and transphobic narratives at a time like this. We need all the help we can get.

@lancewalker2595

10 ай бұрын

Gender identity is just as “real” and “valid” as a theist’s faith is “real” and “valid”; the hypocrisy of your disparate treatment of two equally subjective and non-empirical declarations of belief is astounding, the sophistry exhibited here places you in league with the absolute most obnoxious religious apologists you have spent years repudiating.

The fact that people who look different existing near kids is suddenly being classified as "grooming" is a great example of how much of a joke American politics have become.

@midnightsan9917

10 ай бұрын

Its a hold over from the pin wheel people party. They used the exact same talking points as current right wing nutcases. Even so far as the adrenochrome thing. Its all just a different mask on the same old b@stards

@michaelburk9171

8 ай бұрын

Acknowledging that people different from you exist has become grooming. "Maybe we should think about not stoning gays to death". "Groomer"!!

@nerdwisdomyo9563

7 ай бұрын

Oh god and the 15 minute city debate 😫 this country is a parody of politics (ok im being a little hyperbolic but still)

I was in conversion therapy when I was 12 at a place called teen challenge. They convinced me saying no was not a choice when it came to others wants or needs. So when it came to the moment I was getting groomed and SA'd, I was unable to say no or even move. The conditioned me so much that I was scared to even speak up about this older women using me. Then when I told the church leaders, they said I was just vulnerable. They locked me in a room alone for a few days, and put me on isolation. They wouldn't let me talk to other students there, and took away my privileges such as talking to my parents on the phone. I wasn't able to tell anyone about the abuse, and when I did they told everyone it was because I was a lebsian and wanted it. Then when my family finally heard my side, I couldn't get justice because they protected me groomer and sent her out of the country to Jamaica

As a member of the LGBTQ community who was raised in a Christian Evangelical environment, you've really hit the nail on the head with this video. With respect to representation of the queer community in the churches I grew up in, it was perceived as not just a sickness, but demonic. One church I attended even suggested that the first reference to a gay person in the Bible was one of Noah's sons who "looked upon his father unclothed covetously". Not surprisingly, they made sure to point out that this son was cursed and cast out. I learned at an early age to blend in and not draw attention to myself as a defense mechanism. It's no wonder so many members of our community deal with so much trauma. Thank you for covering this topic. 😞

What you are calling grooming, used to be called brainwashing.

@Izzy-cp8yt

10 ай бұрын

It's both.

@truckerfreedominternationa980

10 ай бұрын

I think grooming is just brainwashing for kids, although it is usually used in the context of raising a kid to be ok with sexual abuse.

@letsomethingshine

10 ай бұрын

grooming is a type of brainwashing "to prepare a person for sexual abuse through enforced submission to a power figure by controlling access to information through a developmental window (most often in younger years, but can be regardless of age)." "Brainwashing (also known as mind control, menticide, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, and forced re-education) is the concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques. Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject's ability to think critically or independently, to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into their minds, as well as to change their attitudes, values, and beliefs... [The term brainwashing started in the 1950s as anti-Chinese-unity/anti-Communist propaganda, with the CIA's incorrect idea being that a person could be 're-educated' into being illogical Pavlovian-response drones, regardless of their previous beliefs through drugs, repetition, or abuse]. ...The [That] concept of brainwashing is not now [aka 'no longer'] generally accepted as a scientific fact [in public media, since no actual science had been done on the subject of "torture through repitition" or anything like that]. In casual speech, 'brainwashing' and its verb form, 'brainwash', are used figuratively to describe the use of propaganda [and information access and control of trust/doubting ability] to persuade or sway public opinion." Indoctrination is the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. This is often targeted to be "best" when done through a developmental window in age. In can be part of brainwashing, but indoctrination can also just be the initial exposure of an initiate into the new group-believes they have accepted to join into... without any ultimate wish/goal to control information/doubt access.

@the_algorithm

10 ай бұрын

It's called Enculturation "enculturation n. 1. the processes, beginning in early childhood, by which particular cultural values, ideas, beliefs, and behavioral patterns are instilled in the members of a society." ~American Psychological Association "Raise them up in the way of the lord" It is literally encoded into the bible

@Tespri

10 ай бұрын

Exactly he totally mixes up of children being mutilated, sterlized and then forced to perform sx acts on old democrats. As same as being brainwashed into religion.

I love the bizarre notion that the radical nature of Jesus acting against the authorities is ok but if YOU do it... literal hell to pay Edit: i mean love sarcastically, just in case that needs clarification lol

I admire you for your courage and compassion. I believe your approach of pointing out how the system leads otherwise good people to cause harm is the best way forward for helping others break the generational cycle of manipulation, shame and abuse. I believe your work will help many, many people free themselves from repeating that cycle. Much love to you both.

On the other side of deconstruction and really appreciate y’all’s perspective and openness. I also appreciate the charity with which y’all speak, as I’m trying to do the same and not be angry about my experiences, only working to overcome the grooming trauma and help others do the same

My therapist and I spoke this morning about a lot of this stuff. I brought up the Obedience song... "Obedience Is The Very Best Way To Show That You Believe. Doing Exactly As The Lord Commands, Doing It Happily..." She seemed appalled, and we agreed that it was grooming behaviour.

@scented-leafpelargonium3366

10 ай бұрын

@gmwillow : I totally agree, but in actuality most professing Christians do NOT obey themselves what is claimed to be written or commanded by God in the Boble, but only what they deem acceptable themselves, such as how they totally ignore and reject the FOUR TIMES EMPHASIZED abomination of eating sewage-imbibing shellfish in Leviticus 11:10-12, the same book that many Christians quote to condemn homosexuality or in keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, the seventh day of the week, as commanded by God in the Ten Commandments (Fouth Commandment) in very clear unambiguous detail! 🤯🙃

@ryanmackenzie6109

10 ай бұрын

Oh gosh that's horrific

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

"obey" is not at all unique to christianity, wait until you disagree with someones pro nouns, jsut wait and see how much they care about "freedom" after that

@ryanmackenzie6109

10 ай бұрын

@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 "disagreeing" with who a person is is not the same as being made to worship a deity.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

@@ryanmackenzie6109 ofcourse not, my point is that people tend to want others to validate their beliefs. wanting others to "obey" and follow their worldview is not unique to christianity, the only reason youre trying to say "its different" is because you simply want your biases against christianity to validated aswell. ironic really

I always objected to young kids to be taught sexual info but now I understand why it's necessary. Thank you for the video. I'm sharing with my bookclub.

@draalttom844

10 ай бұрын

So you were a thousand pourcent for grooming

@scoutbane1651

10 ай бұрын

​@@draalttom844They were misinformed. As long as people are willing to grow it's fine, and it's harmful to talk like this to people showing the capacity to do so. Not everyone is malicious. I do get the concern at a time like this, there are definitely a lot of people who do the same as them but are actively looking to be hateful, to not prevent and even justify abuse. But they don't seem to be, so leave them be.

@draalttom844

10 ай бұрын

@@scoutbane1651 wow sensible much crying at fun pokes

@scoutbane1651

10 ай бұрын

@@draalttom844 Ah sorry, it read a lot to me like hostility not a joke. That's my bad then.

@orkhaa-rh4dd

10 ай бұрын

@@draalttom844 poe's law is real unfortunately. AND YOU BROKE IT.....was that satire........i dont know anymore.

Another great episode! ❤ cant believe I missed it, thanks Drew! 🎉

The way you tackle such delicate and potentially traumatic issues with balance and love is so encouraging. My wife and i have been deconstructing for a while now, and i have just found your channel. Very refreshing to see religious trauma objectively.

I'm trans and I knew from a very young age I was really a girl and my parents and church did everything they could to try and "fix" me. I grew up believing that this fundamental truth I was certain of made me an unlovable monster. I tried to come out in my teens and early early 20s, but then ran back into the closet because I knew it would cost me everything and everyone in my life and I couldn't handle that thought, but what kept me in the closet the most was the fear that if I were to come out and transition I would be stamping my one-way ticket to hell. Unfortunately it took my twin brother dying for me to have had enough and come out. I have since converted to Buddhism, but I won't affiliate with any congregation because I don't want to be controlled by anyone again. I know now that I'm a lovable and not a monster ☺️

@TheJadeyCat

10 ай бұрын

@@alexhigginbotham8635 you're wrong and I don't think this is the space for your to tout your bigoted ignorant ideas.

@mickafra1564

10 ай бұрын

​@@alexhigginbotham8635I'm curious as how you ended up knowing what chromosomes your best friend has, because that seems quite the unusual thing to disclose

@mickafra1564

10 ай бұрын

@@alexhigginbotham8635 why did you delete the post I answered to?

@mickafra1564

10 ай бұрын

@@alexhigginbotham8635 my bad I thought you could

@starscreamthecruel8026

10 ай бұрын

Im sorry that you experienced that and I am glad you have finally found peace.

Thank you for talking about this! This is a long comment but I want to share my story because I was "groomed" by my conservative catholic uncle in every sense of the word as it is used by conservatives now. I grew up with a mom who is apolitical and non-religious. My father was in jail for most of my life and he's a fundamentalist muslim. One of my maternal uncles was the only consistent father figure in my life for a while. We would talk about history, his time in the military living in Germany, religion, and literature. I admired him because I thought he was smart and I hung onto every word he said. When my father was out of jail, he would take me to the Masjid to pray with him. My father really wanted to convert me to islam. I was the subject of a spiritual tug of war, and everyone wanted me to convert to their religion. My uncle won the tug of war when told me that I shouldn't convert to islam because islam endorses slavery (relevant because i'm half black) and because of what the qur'an says about black people and dark skin (a lot of people don't know that the things the prophet muhammed said about sub saharan africans are extremely anti-black) but he didn't tell me that christianity also endorsed slavery. He taught me how to use the rosary to pray and I actually used to do it. I was formerly non-religious and agnostic but my uncle was able to change that. I never went to church or anything because, again, my mom was non-religious but I would have gone if my uncle lived close by. My uncle used to come to my house and basically force us to watch Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck, he would feed me conservative talking points that were fed to him by Fox News, and he even made us watch Atlas Shrugged. TL;DR, he was effectively "forcing his ideology down our throats" and, for me, it was working. I was extremely bigoted and angry. I'm amab and I was also trying to understand my identity in regards to my race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and gender. I was full of self-hatred and it showed through my behavior, especially online. We moved in with him when he bought a house because I guess he was intent on turning us into the nuclear family he never had. But when my mom found a boyfriend, he started staying at the house, while my uncle was still living with his parents in the Bronx. Due to his supposed catholic beliefs, he kicked us out of his house because my mom and her boyfriend weren't married. This helped me realize that he was actually pretty awful. The truth is, my uncle was jealous of my mom's boyfriend because my uncle has always had a weird obsession with my mom. My mom never told me any details but I suspect that he used to SA her when they were kids because of something she mentioned during a counseling session we had years later. Looking back, the compliments and the doting he gave my mom have a completely different context. One particular compliment he gave my mom that I will never forget because of how weird I thought it was is when he talked about how hot olivia munn was and then said she looked like my mom. He would also made sexual comments as I was going through puberty. Now, my uncle has a new house and he still doesn't live in it. He lives with his parents still and he's one of the crazy maga types. He idolizes guns to the point he scares my grandparents. I'm trans and I have a boyfriend. Needless to say he does not approve, which is fine because I also don't approve of creepy old men with a lifelong incestuous obsession with their sisters.

@icantthinkofaname4265

10 ай бұрын

Absolutely wild and specific. Glad ur away from him

@lexismore

10 ай бұрын

Sometimes it can be hard to live with the awareness of how easy it is for people to do real harm in the most casual of ways. The prominence of today's Tucker Carlsons (well maybe in his case literally yesterday's) and Matt Walshes along with yesterday's O'Reilly's and Becks is part of what makes it so easy. That's why we need independent content creators like these guys. And education that encourages actual inquiry and media literacy.

@ts4743

10 ай бұрын

@@lexismore agreed. if it wasn't for social media allowing me to learn more about other perspectives, i don't know if i ever would have broken out of the conservative mind prison.

@Podzhagitel

10 ай бұрын

most mentally stable NYC family

@ts4743

10 ай бұрын

@@Podzhagitel well I'm from connecticut but my mom's side were born in BX and then most moved to CT. But gosh you don't even know... it gets so much worse

When dealing with conservatives, christian or not, always remember: every accusation is an admission of guilt. They get their ideas of what to accuse people of from reading their own diaries.

@randomteenageboy5002

10 ай бұрын

“When dealing with liberals, atheist or not, always remember: every deflection is an admission of guilt. They get their ideas of what to accuse people of from reading their own diaries.” See how ridiculous that sounds? See how ridiculous you sound? This is why critical thinking is dead in this country. Both sides do this. Claiming to be morally superior when in fact they aren’t. In reality it’s the opposite.

@DrPhilGoode

10 ай бұрын

PROJECTION 101

@DanielFleischmannJr

10 ай бұрын

That is projecting

@fightforyourfreedomsnow

10 ай бұрын

It can work both ways honey 🥲

@hrv4908

10 ай бұрын

You're describing the left. The immoral mindset is what is ruining our society.

The summer camp discussion struck a chord with me. I was always too much of a skeptical overthinker to ever commit to evangelical Christianity, but I was drawn to it nonetheless because it gave me a “tribe” when I was a lonely teenage nerd with poor social skills. The camp I attended was relatively liberal given some of the stories I have heard about these camps. But watching this video I saw the major pieces of indoctrination in place. Our days were packed with activities. We had daily devotions and nightly fellowship. I remember the singing and chanting. It was indeed powerful and joyful. It did make me feel as if I were experiencing God’s love. It was only during the last summer or two when I was coming to the end of high school that I questioned if Jesus was really speaking to me, or if it was merely mob psychology. I look back on these times fondly and hold the church leaders no ill will, but I realize now so clearly what they were trying to do at that camp.

Been deprogramming for literal YEARS now, but it's only recently that I realized just how deeply affected I am by the fundie-adjacent religious environment I grew up in. So thank you for talking about this. For showing all the ways in which - intentionally or not - they create communities of at risk people to exploit and call it good. My church never explicitly talked about the 4-14 window, but I remember the entire church being ECSTATIC when I decided at like 7 or something that I was ready to be baptized and commit my life to Christ. That was before the more extremist elements even moved into our leadership, and it was still such a huge thing that the anxiety of somehow not upholding the person I was to them in that one "perfect" moment was crippling for years. And when the two of you talked about the FEAR that kind of conditioning instills in you around even the most mundane of things. I'm somewhere ace-spec (although I didn't realize it until just a few years ago, because like you mentioned, I didn't even have a concept of such things, much less the language to describe it) so sexual sin was never a particularly big struggle for me personally. But one of the earliest memories I have is my mother teaching me to pray before bed, and it always had to start with "Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. And should I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take." It wasn't an example of a good place to start; it was something I was taught that I HAD to do, because if I didn't, I might die in my sleep and not be taken to Heaven. I'm in my late 30s now, haven't been to church in almost two decades, and have been actively deconstructing since uni - and I STILL occasionally find myself having panic attacks before bed, because what if I die in my sleep? I don't pray anymore, and what if I'm WRONG, and there is a God and I don't pray and I die in my sleep? If the good little Christian girl who was "confident enough" in her faith at 7 to commit her life to Christ wasn't safe, how can an almost-40yr old AFAB enby agnostic be safe? It's terrifying at times. Because even deconstructing, the indoctrination runs so deep that I can never quite escape that "but what if I'm wrong and they were all right?". Realizing my own parents deliberately instilled that level of trauma in a child with no hesitation is a hurt beyond words. And the fact that I'm sure other kids are still being taught the same thing by their own parents is heartbreaking. Whether my parents or any others consciously understood the damage they were causing or not, they were still not only willing to terrify their child into compliance, but they saw it as an important and even holy thing to do. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm very much part of the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, and I have never been harmed, exploited, or led around by anyone the way I have Christianity as it was practiced by those around me while I was growing up. Not by the LGBTQIA+ community. And certainly not by Trans people. The way they consistently try to twist the narrative to suggest otherwise is vile.

@quillo2747

10 ай бұрын

You should also consider deprogramming from the LGBTQIA+ religion. There are many gay or trans people who oppose the ideology. Dont replace one set of religious indoctrinations with another

@Jack-px8lf

10 ай бұрын

if evil is right then im glad to be wrong. if the bible is right odds are theyre the ones worshipping the antichrist. they dont have fruits of the spirits we do.

gosh, this video hits hard. similarly to you, i was never abused or significantly harmed by the grooming i experienced growing up a conservative christian, but boy howdy was the grooming real. i've had to work through a massive shame and guilt complex related to my own sexuality, a complex that has plagued me from age 14 and which i only recently began to unpack. i distinctly remember at one point when i was 15, i ended up being the last person at a female friend's birthday party. *that alone* was enough to make me feel like i had sinned, and was unworthy, because my religion taught that you should not date until age *16* . heck, i was so scared and repressed that i didn't really have a serious crush on a girl till i was 16-17, and i didn't realize that i also like boys sometimes until *this year* (i'm 21 now). i still feel like i'm "playing catch-up" compared to my friends who developed normally and had the chance to fall in and out of love multiple times throughout high school. (to be clear, i'm not saying people can't be asexual, just that i'm not and compared to others like me, my development was heavily stunted.) thanks for making the video. i'm internally debating whether it would be the right move to send it to one of my still-believing family members. they're open-minded, but they also tend to become upset when i criticize the church, so...

@pansepot1490

10 ай бұрын

They aren’t open minded if they get upset at a video like this one.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

I mean, mutliple studies have found dating before 18 is really bad for mental health, and sex addiction is a huge issue. religious people actually have very good reasons for being against the things they are against, and I dont think the weirdos who make everything about sex are happier than them tbh

@JaniceLHz

10 ай бұрын

@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 Do you have any titles for those studies that find dating before 18 is harmful for mental health? I would like to look at them, partially to check their methodology and peer review.

I know this is going to sound silly, but even just seeing the title kinda made tears well in my eyes. I'm so, so used to people who touted themselves as leaving radical groups still perpetuating many of it's concepts (Armored skeptic style), so for me, being a trans person who also survived a radical religious cult, I have felt deeply isolated among those in these spaces who have left more radical/extreme religious communities. Thank you, thank you so much for the intro and talking about your experiences without punching down, I don't know if I've ever encountered this amount of open understanding before when relating to this topic specifically.

I started college (a liberal arts college, much to my father's dismay) in 2012. That was the same year I learned of the existence of transgender people. It is absolutely the case that these groups suppress an acknowledgement of the infinitely complex and beautiful wider world that we inhabit. And that is an atrocity.

Queer people don't try to make other people queer. My mom blames social media on my decision to transition and it's the most absurd infantilizing insulting thing. As if I can't make my own decisions.

@ElenaKomleva

10 ай бұрын

If you didn't learn that such a thing as "transitioning" existed, you wouldn't have done it. So technically she is right. We can't make a decision if we don't even know such an option exists. I had gender dysphoria when I was a teenager but since transitioning wasn't even a thing at all in the time and the place where I was born and grew up, I never made that decision. All I'm saying is that our decisions are not entirely independent of our environment.

@VaughanMcCue

10 ай бұрын

Wait until you are older.

@beetlebob4675

10 ай бұрын

​​@@ElenaKomleva If that's true, why were there trans people in the 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s, etc? Social media didn't exist back then. The internet didn't exist back then. Why do indigenous people recognize alternative genders and sexualities??? Why have they done so since as long as they can remember?

@hadrianhexe9603

10 ай бұрын

@@ElenaKomleva Maybe but the fact is, it was your choice, noone influenced you to do it. It's like saying someone placed a chocolate bar in front of you and when you decided to eat, they made you eat and like it.

@zugetzuzu

10 ай бұрын

​@@ElenaKomleva Lack of information causes you do act accordingly. Not possessing knowledge causes you to make decisions you wouldn't otherwise make. Having access to this knowledge does not mean you were influenced, but that you could make an informed decision that was not based on faulty or lacking information.

Wow, I never thought of these things as grooming but you’re absolutely right. They are priming techniques that make deconstruction very difficult because it’s all you’ve ever known since early childhood. Thank you for making this kind of content Drew and Taylor, you guys are really helping me in my deconstruction journey.

Can you please warn viewers at the beginning of videos if there will be strobe lights?

@andynonymous6769

9 ай бұрын

Replying to try to give this comment a boost

@sadem1045

9 ай бұрын

@@andynonymous6769 Thanks

This is so necessary, I hope it gets millions of views

It's so disgusting that they (evangelicals and religious folks in general) take advantage of those formative years. Makes me absolutely sick!

@tuckerbugeater

10 ай бұрын

I sent my child alone to a drag show at age 5 to sanitize their mind.

@SteelSquishy

10 ай бұрын

Makes me ponder my role as a parent when the day comes I'm blessed with a child.

@michaelburk9171

8 ай бұрын

If they waited until the "age of reason" to introduce religion to their children religions would end in just a few generations. Church leaders now this. "He who owns the youth, control the future". Adolf Hitler "Give me the boy and I'll give you the man". Ignatius Loyola

I am trans and the daughter of a minister. I was deeply enmeshed in the church. Even thought I might become a minister when younger. The attempts to gaslight me about my expression as a child was what broke my faith. Although I was groomed to believe a certain way my need to express myself was inescapable. I believe this was why the brainwashing as a child wasn't effective. It broke my relationship with my family. It lead me to deep shame. When I was 19 I fled my family. It wasn’t until 35 before I accepted who I was without that shame or guilt of embarrassing my family. It robbed me of years. I am now an atheist and raise my daughter in a non-secular home. We live in the South and unfortunately my daughter still suffers with people telling her I am harmful for just existing. I personally don't speak about my past with her or about LGBTQ issues. At least not in a way that isn't age appropriate. I just teach her to love all people and expressions of love and identity. When she is older we can have deeper conversations. Yet many people believe I am the groomer. Thank you for all the subjects you attempt to tackle. Just became a subscriber.

@Haru-nee

10 ай бұрын

May I make a suggestion? You don't have to go and tell her things, but don't lie to her when she asks questions. About anything. It'll hurt her if she finds out you outright lied. Withholding the worst parts of your experience? Perhaps. I wish you luck!

@art4moonpeople268

10 ай бұрын

@@Haru-nee I don't lie about my past to protect her from the truth. I agree that would be harmful in the long-term. We have a very close and open relationship. I am lucky to have a kid that feels safe coming to me with any questions she might have. I simply mean I don't try to have discussions that she isn't ready to fully understand and if she has a question I always try to be honest with her without forcing my opinions onto her. She was still a toddler when I transitioned. She only knows me as mom. She is a teenager now and has her own identity and opinions. I always give her as much information as possible but try not to condition her thinking in the process. I want her to learn critical thinking and understand right from wrong.

@Haru-nee

10 ай бұрын

@@art4moonpeople268 Sounds like you're doing great. ❤️

That 4 to 14 ad creeped me out.

Not part of LGBTQ+, but later told by professionals that I might have autism. As a kid I hated most forms of physical contact, so would often push away my parents and friends who tried to hug me. One night my dad slapped me across the face because I wouldn’t hug him goodnight. It was taught pretty early that I didn’t have autonomy over myself or my actions

@lillanie125

2 ай бұрын

😂 same. Im a teen now. When i tell my dad not to hug me (not even my mom. My mom doesnt ever hug me, i just now realize) i get shamed and insulted for being rude. Like damn. Go hug my brother, i made it clear over years and years that i do not want it

Wauw.. i consider myself very lucky. Grown up in an international city, my school was catholic, my parents where buddhists, my best friend was a muslim, we had a jew, a hindu and no idea what other religions we had in just my class alone.. I am talking about primary school. This made me think, i realized as a little boy.. how come there are so many religions and all of them claims truth.. this.. just striked me as odd. We prayed to god and stuff and everyone joined in with the prayer.. I remember looking around, wondering what everybody was doing while praying, because i wasn't sure what i was supposed to do. hehe.. Anyway, just because i was confronted with it at such a young age and my parents kept me free, for making my own mind. They explained buddhism to me, but never forced it. Even my school, we didn't really had a bible class, sure there were some biblical stories shared with us. But it was never 'serious', or a live or death matter.. (hell/heaven matter) I'm glad they didn't and i am glad of all the exposure i had as a little boy. It made me think and i never stopped with thinking for myself.

@jas9574

10 ай бұрын

As much as I know about buddhism, forcing/manipulating someone to be buddhist like christian tactics described in the video would serve to defeat the point of even being buddhist. Part of being buddhist as far as I know is about seeing clearly without a lense, seeing the world as it is and not how we or anyone wants it to be.

An untold problem about the whole drag grooming accusations thing is that creeps and pedophiles come in all shapes and sizes, so the few ones that actually groom children through these events will most likely go unnoticed because of all the baseless false accusations from these insane hateful christians. Classic boy cried wolf situation and it's sickening in so many levels.

@its_lemon_19

10 ай бұрын

Exactly, either that or right winged conservatives will use that and pretend that it only happens there and not any other times and it's a lose lose situation

@Mehki227

5 ай бұрын

Yeah meanwhile back at Sunday school the youth leader is touching little kids and if the kids yells he/she is told to shutup.

This one was my favorite by far. It hits very close to home. Thanks for doing these videos.

I personally hate the trying to force impressionable kids into these kinds of things. My dad claimed to not be religious, but forced me to be a Christian and made his abuse worse when I told him I can't believe in such a hateful god at the age of 13! My dad would get mad when I couldn't even make my own full meal at 13 because he treated me like a housewife would be treated with cleaning and cooking at that age. He refused to even let me hear the word gay until he had to acknowledge it when I said I like men, women, and nonbinny finies (in the words of CyYu)! Even to this day, he tries to act like I only can possibly get married later to a man and that I'll give birth to kids, when I likely will have to get my uterus taken out due to issues. I hate people like him and get told I'm a bad person for not wanting to be hurt and abused again

I was never raised with religion. Your content is amazing for giving me a peek behind the curtain.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

eh, dont let one bias video paint your view on an entire group of millions and millions of people. you know who does that ? racists.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

@@Rest323 ok, and an old man whos only experience with black people is getting robbed by them, should he constantly talk about his experiences and tell people they are valid ? I worked with an old man who was racist once, literally his only actions with black people were negative so he projected that onto everyone. so you realize you have the exact same line of thinkiing as actual racists ? and youre ok with it ? alright then

@acutechicken5798

10 ай бұрын

​@@kreenbopulusmichael7205the only good christians are fucking ashamed of all the other christians. This is because the sects of Christianity which don't want to harm loads of innocent people are unfortunately a minority.

@acutechicken5798

10 ай бұрын

​@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 People choose to be Christian. They don't choose to be black. Because Christianity is an ideology, it instills into its followers various ideological goals. Since usually these goals are nefarious, most christians turn out a bit bonkers.

@SgtVeritas

10 ай бұрын

@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 did I say I think every single religious person is some kind of way? No I did not. You just made up some shit and then accused me of it so you could get mad. Go touch grass

It's quite common for people guilty of a particular crime to accuse others of the exact same crime

Just found y’all’s channels, very great info! I walked away from being in a very “Jesus camp” type upbringing so it’s nice to know I’m not alone

I'm glad channels like yours exist to teach people about these issues!

There is one analogy that is so simple and to the point that it stuck with me. When you teach children about frogs, you are not indoctrinating or grooming them to be amphibians. You are teaching them that frogs exist and facts about frogs and that is it. With that in mind, their arguments sound like they want to make you believe that teaching people about frogs is dangerous because surely even if not intentional it just unavoidibly turns some of these kids into amphibians. Its so silly when you think about it that way. Teaching children about mountains does not turn them into rocks.

@secularidiot9052

10 ай бұрын

I feel like the analogy isn't that good since things like frogs and mountains don't resemble humans at all. So I can provide a better one: Teaching children about murder won't turn them into murderers. Teaching children about mental conditions such as OCD, autism, and ADHD won't give them OCD, autism, or ADHD. Teaching children about sexuality and gender identity won't turn them gay or transgender. Similarly to the mental condition example, it may make them aware of their sexuality/gender identity, but a cisgender child won't be turned trans just because they are aware of their existence.

@kurtilein3

10 ай бұрын

@@secularidiot9052 Yes, i also like that.

@kreenbopulusmichael7205

10 ай бұрын

false equivalency, no one is mad about teaching kids about sex, we're mad theyre tryingot give 3rd graders butt plugs s they cant each them about anal sex. its happening whether you want to accept it or not. either deal with the groomers in your community, or cover for them. your choice says alot about who you are.

@kurtilein3

10 ай бұрын

@Nelumbo_lutea What evidence could help with that? You could argue that being a frog is a choice and all frogs choose to be frogs. For rational people, its easy, you can do a study where you simply ask a bunch of people.

@secularidiot9052

10 ай бұрын

@@kurtilein3 Ask them if they are able to just choose to be gay, at the drop of a hat. Can they just choose to be turned on by other men? Can they just choose to imagine themselves getting railed from behind and pop a boner? Can they get a lap dance from a gay stripper and choose to like it? The answer would always be no, because sexuality isn't a choice. You could also point out that homosexuals have parts of the brain that are more developed than heterosexuals, not in the sense that they are smarter, but in the sense that their brains are wired differently. A gay man has more pronounced masculine features in their brain, a lesbian has more pronounced feminine features in their brain. Interestingly, it's the opposite way around for transgenders, which immediately dispels the myth that trans people are just gay.