Guys that was great! This needs to be a regular segment! Nori's understanding of driving is really important for all the new 'overlanders' to hear. Great stuff. It's a bummer you don't get a sense of how steep this stuff is on video! Also, one of the best cross-channel tie-ins i've seen! :) Great stuff guys, look forward to more!

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Good info should be shared. Even if this collaboration prevents a single rig from rolling, it would be worth the while.

I been on this trail, yes that is a wall. It's really vertical.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Steep and smooth is no problem, but that lump mid wall just makes it so scary to take at speed.

2:37 WOW thats nerve wrecking footage thinking about the Honda Passport Im so impressed! Thats my idol @JonDZ Adventuring

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Me too! I don't ever want him to be flippin

@Sheerahboom87

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer love you bro cant wait to see you on trails

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sheerahboom87 I’m going to try to follow in your foot steps! Not everywhere, because you go to some crazy places. Hells gate? No thanks! Hahahahha. I have a Colorado trip in July, we will be referring to your videos

This is the solution to your problem: When the front wheels lock and begin sliding sideways while backing downhill, the solution is to let off the foot brake and use the hand brake. The weight has transferred to the rear and gives it most of the traction. That will allow the front wheels to regain traction and steer again while still being able to control descent speed with the hand brake. I have done this many times over the last 30 years of off-roading.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Whoa I'm just imagining how this would feel in motion. Appreciate you sharing this. I'm not sure if the Passport has a hand brake.. it may be electronic.

@commonsense6050

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer I realize it sounds unconventional, but it works. Jon said his Passport has a foot brake, so it is not conducive to this method. I responded to Jon with this: That certainly makes this situation difficult or impossible. I have had a series of off-road vehicles from VW dune buggies to my current Jeep that have hand brakes. I learned the technique with the VW based vehicles since their light front end always wanted to slide sideways while backing down. For those who have a hand brake try it sometime as practice and you will see how effective it is. It becomes second nature to grab that handle when backing down steep hills.

thanks guys. good rehash of the moment. informative for guys out there.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Our pleasure. We learn much from sensei, figured it would be interesting for everyone else as well!

@checkeredflagfilms

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer Absolutely, we all learn by out mistakes...trying always to keep the consequences of our actions to a minimum. ;)

Nice work on this, guys. Excellent insights.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Donnaaald thank you!

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

🙌 N A V A R A 🙌

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

NissanPro4Xingthewest

That was a slick link between your two channels haha! I came straight over here for the in depth recap and analysis.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Hahahah we rushed to get this content together for you! Glad it turned out OK!!

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

The plan was to release both our videos at the same time on April 9th, but yesterday I realized it was April fools day and it was too good to pass up not releasing the video early. I completed the video 3 days ago.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

@@JonDZ_Adventuring I'm a slow editor 🥲

I run about 5-6psi in my old flat fender when running around Moab. I would seriously recommend you experiment with lower than 18psi air pressure. That will also help slightly reduce your effective gearing.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Whoa that's awesome! What tire size are you running?

@brennanmetcalf

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer 35x13.5R15 BFG Krawler. Just to be clear, I'm not recommending the vehicle in question run 5psi, but the difference between 18psi and say 8-12psi would be drastic.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

@@brennanmetcalf I haven't been rock crawling yet but would love to see tires conforming and hugging rocks. 5-6 psi is intense!

As usual Great job !

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your support!

Great recap guys

Awesome video, love seeing some hondas out there in sea of jeeps and toyotas. Just purchase a 2020 mdx aspec awd. Like to build it up for some overlanding off road not as narly as this obcourse . Completely new to this and located in Dallas fort worth like link up and learn if possible. thanks

Nori could def start a podcast. I'd listen to him. He can interview random youtubers that have gone through 'catastrophes'. AWD rig on a 4WD trail = rolling the dice. Good video though, I enjoyed it! Thanks!

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah he's great at this sort of stuff! Appreciate your support. It's rated 5/10 for Jeeps so.. like 9/10 or 10/10 for AWD. 🎲 Glad we all made it out safe.

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

I agree 510_JK we need more Nori explaining stuff on this Channel!

Great Job JD!! You tried. I'll feel the same way. The best part was, you did not lose your self control. That's a great way to do it: review and discuss about what happen, lessons learned, and emphasize safety. The only successful mission is when the job was done and everybody get to go home to their love ones!! Hope to ride with you all someday.👍

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

It was pretty quick thinking on his part. In the moment there isn't much time for analysis. 🥇

Interesting explanation of torque vs hp. I do a lot in 4WL between idle and 2000 rpm.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

It's so fun crawling through obstacles! I tend to keep it pretty mild on obstacles as well.

Can you get an LSD or rear locker for a Honda Passport?

Will be interesting to manually turn on the servos to lock both clutches

Nice! You guys should start a podcast show lol 😆

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

😆 Chick fil a and trail talk? That pretty much sums up yesterday!

Jon: “I don’t feel like Passport is all the built”. 🤣🤣🤣

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Jon has been looking at his Passport too much. First impression from just about anyone else is "Huge Passport!!!!"

@joobaggs6886

3 жыл бұрын

If he really built it up for rock crawling, he would need manual locking diffs front center and back. Also a transfer case for crawling ratio. Then there's custom suspension arms and shocks! And maybe a supercharger kit for low end power!

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

@@joobaggs6886 I'd like to see it!!

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

I'm still have the same OEM springs and struts! Not by choice! Because there are ZERO aftermarket options for the midsized Hondas. @eibach @Ironman4x4 seriously guys.... Please make something for this platform. Since 2016 about a Million Pilot, Passport, Ridgeline, MDX have been sold that are on the SAME PLATFORM. I only went with this platform because I wanted the comfort and daily drivability while still having "okay" offroad capability. When I say "okay" I mean best in class AWD capability (not counting the Jeep trailhawk awd crossovers). So please... someone make some GODDAM PARTS DAMMIT!! haha! /rant off

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

@@joobaggs6886 I'm not kidding, but if I ever make enough money I'll try to get all the parts from the Honda Ridgeline trophy truck and stick them in my Passport. I just need 1 million USD :P hahahahaha

Feathering the brake downhill in reverse will always brake the front wheels too much. If they lock up, the front no longer has steering control. This will cause the car to pivot about the rear wheels (air they are not locked up too). Normally, the brakes will apply more force to the front because the front has more grip due to weight transfer (why the nose dips when you slow down). Slowing down in reverse, the weight transfers to the rear. But the brakes don’t adjust for going in reverse. Being on a hill, even more weight is over the rear axle meaning even more grip on the rear and less on the front. The only 2 options were to brake less (very risky) or the press the brake as hard as possible to give the rear brakes enough force to stop the rear wheels. This weight transfer on hills is also why Jon’s front wheels are spinning even with only 30% power going to them compared to the rear wheels. The rear wheels have more weight on them meaning more grip, way more grip than the front,

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

I've got a feeling Jon wants to do Fins n Things again and test out some of these new strategies! 😆 Reading them gets me excited. Thanks Martin!

@zeitgeist785

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer until Jon gets a locking centre differential, this scenario will always be a risk. Remember that a locking centre differential (or transfer case in 4L or 4H) ensures the front and rear axle speeds remain the same no matter what level of grip they have (i’m ignoring one wheel spinning on one axle to make it easier to explain). An open centre diff will always result in different speeds between front and rear axles if there is a large enough grip difference.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

@@zeitgeist785 yup. It's too risky. I'd pass. There are so many other places to be, sights to see, and trails that won't destroy the vehicle.

@andrewsnow7386

3 жыл бұрын

@@zeitgeist785 You are exactly right in describing the front brake bias problem when backing down a hill. And I agree with your 2 options. First, I think what Jon did by feather the brakes is generally good practice, but this is one of the exception-to-the-rule cases. Because other vehicles climbed the rock without even chirping the tires, it is very likely that the Passport would have stayed on that hill if Jon had applied the brake really hard as you described. This would have given him time to plan his descent. While I think the brakes would have held the car on that hill, a controlled descent (slow with the ability to steer) might have been impossible, because (as you note) his front and rear wheels are not tied together by a solid drivetrain. I think when it came to actually descending, he may have had a choice between steering or braking, but not really doing both at the same time. However, it's possible that he could have descended in little hops, 6 inches or a foot at a time. This could be attempted by very quickly completely releasing the brakes and then reapplying them hard. While the brakes are off, the car could be steered. When the brakes are reapplied, hopefully the car would come to a stop again. This is absolutely not a sure thing, but it's probably what I would have tried. But one thing Martin, Jon's Passport doesn't actually have a center differential. The two clutch packs in the rear "differential" (one for the left wheel and one for the right wheel), handle all of the differential work that would commonly be done by a center and rear differential combined. That is, if a rear wheel needs to travel at a different speed than the front wheels, the clutches in the rear "differential" just slip to allow the rear wheels speed to be different. So, to get the front and rear togetherness that you mention, he would need to replace the rear "differential" with a real differential. But, of course, then he would need a way to decouple the front and rear when driving on pavement.

@zeitgeist785

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewsnow7386 wow, if it’s only got a rear differential to disengage AWD, then there’s an awesome upgrade option - manually controlled rear diff! Lock the clutches in the rear diff and you essentially have a locked centre differential! He might get some error codes but it would really change the behaviour of the car.

What degree was climb?

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

That degree that makes grown men shudder. 🤫

18 psi is low, but I’ve never had a problem going as low as 14 psi and the grip is noticeably better on this sort of climb.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

I'm still learning about different wheels and types of tires. I'll have to do more research and make and video about it too!

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

Good point aDweeb, I’ve gone as low as 12 PSI on a sketchy Downhill drop once. One thing I keep forgetting to do is taking a moment to think before attempting obstacles that look scary.

@ShoddyRC

3 жыл бұрын

@@JonDZ_Adventuring I do the same thing! Especially since the tire pressure you were at had been working well for all the other climbs. Another problem I had recently is when I switched to a E rated tire. It seems like my 4 runner doesn’t weigh enough to flex the tire and get the same amount of grip as when I had a C rated tire. Man that was a sketchy slide, I bet that got the adrenaline going!

I have a video where I almost rolled on a hill climb. Would be cool to see your analysis on it!

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

😆 our guilty pleasure!

@DirtComplex

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer It was up a soft sandy hill. The only choice is to send it to make it up this one. So it would be a nice contrast.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Lol next time we're at the garage, would be awesome to analyze together!

The Passport AWD system doesn't seem to send enough torque rearward. Some of Honda's AWD systems require front wheel slippage in order to send power rearward. The part-time 4x4 systems in the Gladiator and 4Runner are a locked 50/50 torque split meaning the front and rear axles turn at the same speed even if one axle loses traction. I'm glad you didn't roll. I subscribed to follow your adventures. 😎

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that center lock in 4Lo definitely doing work. Gladiator was walking up in second gear ⚙️

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

Kevin, the iVTM4 equipped Hondas are a full time system and currently class leading AWD That’s why my 4wd friends let me tag along, haha! So, I was in sand mode, which appropriates 70 to the rear and 30 to the front. The rear differential simulates a rear locker. Of course, everything is clamped via clutch packs which, when stressed will slip, but that wasn’t the case here. Check out this video clip: instagram.com/p/B1xVr2TgwS-/?igshid=v2rcqcw1wwvd The G-wagon can’t crawl up with center and rear diff mechanically locked. One part that was left out of this video is that having my simulated locked rear diff may have been part of my demise and expedited my rightward rotation. At that point, I was starting to left foot brake, which... was already too late, I was going for a ride 😭. If I was to ever try this again. I’d do it in Mud mode 40/60 split, or normal mode, reactive torque vectoring.

@andrewsnow7386

3 жыл бұрын

​@@JonDZ_Adventuring I'm another 4-wheeler with 30+ years of experience, and a mechanical engineer. I think you did a really good job driving, but I must disagree with you when you say the clutch packs were not slipping. The simple answer is that if the clutches were locked, the rear wheels would have spun with the fronts. The long answer, if you are interested, follows. First, looking at what the wheels are doing just before you back off of the power (from about 2:27 to 2:30 in the video): The right front tire is spinning (turning faster than the car is moving) The right rear tire is rolling (turning the same speed that the car is moving) The left front tire is rolling or spinning (can't see it clearly) The left rear tire is rolling or spinning (can't see it clearly) Personally, I think the left front tire does more spinning and less rolling than the left rear tire. But, since I can't be sure, I will talk mainly about the right side. The following article describes the technical workings of the Acura SH-AWD system. At the end, it talks about how the Honda i-VT4M differs: youwheel.com/home/2017/05/07/acura-sh-awd-a-comprehensive-analysis/ Since the i-VT4M system has no center differential, the clutches in the rear differential are the only thing that can allow the front and rear wheels to turn at different speeds. To be more precise, from the above reference, if the clutches in the rear differential are fully locked, then the rear wheels will actually turn 2.7% FASTER than average speed of the front wheels. This applies independently to each rear wheel. That is, if the right clutch pack is locked, then the right rear wheel will turn 2.7% faster than the average speed of the front wheels (likewise for the left side). As noted above, your right front wheel was spinning (turning above car speed), and the left front wheel was at least rolling (turning at car speed). If you average these two front wheel speeds, you get a speed that is still above car speed. Since the right rear wheel is rolling, not spinning, it is turning SLOWER than the average front wheel speed. This slower rear wheel speed is only possible if the right clutch pack is slipping. Since I can't tell for sure how much the left side tires are spinning vs rolling, I can't be sure about the left clutch pack. But my guess is that it's slipping too. You note that "when stressed [the clutches] will slip". If standing on your rear wheels, trying to climb a steep high-traction rock doesn't count as "stressed", then I don't know what does. :) Your car had what -- maybe 70% or 80% of it's weight on the rear wheels? It is my belief that the only reason you didn't climb that rock is that you maxed-out the torque the clutches could transmit to the rear wheels. Thus, you couldn't take full advantage of the traction the rear wheels had.

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewsnow7386 well, you’re the expert, so I’ll have to ask you how does the rear wheels in an iVTM4 equipped vehicle get power? The Honda document does not reference a center diff, but it definitely has one. It’s right under

@andrewsnow7386

3 жыл бұрын

@@JonDZ_Adventuring I think your last comment got cut short, but I think I get the gist. Your Passport has what Honda appears to call a "Transfer Assembly". "Transfer" is a good word for it as it transfers power from the front to the rear. www.hondapartsnow.com/parts-list/2019-honda-passport--5dr_exl_awd-ka_9at/transmission_automatic/at_transfer.html This looks a lot like a center differential, but it is not. What many people think of when you say "differential" is the pumpkin like thing at the rear of vehicles. This type of differential actually performs 3 different functions: 1) It turns the angle of the drive 90 degrees from the for-aft drive shaft to the crosswise direction of the axles. 2) It has a gear reduction. 3) It allows the rear wheels to turn at different speeds. The first 2 of these functions are performed by the ring and pinion gears. The third or "differential" function is performed by the 4 bevel gears (number can vary) in the center of the carrier. Wikipedia calls these the sun and planet gears, but other names are also common. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_(mechanical_device) Your transfer unit only has a set of bevel gears. It performs the first (90 deg turn) and possibly the second (change in gear ratio) functions. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevel_gear It doesn't have the gears necessary to allow the front and rear wheels to operate at "different" speeds, so it is not a differential. It is similar to a rear differential where a "spool" is installed or one that is "welded". Doing either of these eliminates (or defeats) the bevel gears inside the differential carrier and thus eliminates the "differential" action. I'm happy to answer more questions if you can stand it. :)

Scary! I woulda been fine if it just slid straight back but when it started going sideways 😬

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Hey Robbie! The yaw motion definitely upped the drama on the way down. I think most of us aren't used to backing down steep climbs. It's a skill I need to learn as well. Scary scary!

If you think that is a near rollover I would hate to see what you would think about some of the stuff that I do. You didn't even lift a tire. Try Pritchett canyon then you might get a near or actual rollover.

Great video! I really enjoyed this! A lot. I like the guy on the right too (all you guys are good) but as he was talking I was saying the same thing in my head. My bet is that a little less tire pressure and I agree with crawling it. At least try to crawl it and then if you can’t crawl it, then try again with just a little more momentum. Man that guy is saying what I am thinking.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Aha he's our resident professional on the Borderline team. Next up in experience is JonDZ with 5 years. I'm picking up all sorts of good info and experiences from them. Appreciate you checking the vid!

@Colorado4x4

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer heck yea! Keep it up! I rest did enjoy it. We need more videos like this. And I’m happy to see that Honda tearing up the trails! Happy wheeling! - Geoff

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

@@Colorado4x4 I agree, Geoff. His Honda has been places. Seen many things. These informative talks are really helpful to me as well. Maybe one day I'll even be able to contribute more to the conversation. Or even read your mind.

@Colorado4x4

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer LOL. That made me laugh. I’m going to subscribe too. Good stuff man

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Welcome to the Borderline Fam! We usually don't do things so crazy rock-crawly-Johnson-Valley-Desert-Racing-King-of-Ham-n-Cheesy-descriptions. Just like to get out and see stuff. Enjoy the channel, Geoff.

Frozed!!! Thanks for analyzing and reaffirm not always smash that pedal.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Send it! Into heaven!

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

It took lots of control. Don’t smash gas and don’t smash brake! 😱😱😱

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

@@JonDZ_Adventuring I got bad habits 🤫

8 lives left 🐱

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

😺🐈😺🐈😺🐈😺🐈

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

Hahhahahahahha

@justinid.4784

3 жыл бұрын

@@JonDZ_Adventuring it’s gotta be those space cat shirts of yours 😆

@solarinsocal6025

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer Have to make this T shirt. Lol

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

@@solarinsocal6025 great idea!

Borderline Explorer, These vehicles are front wheel biased AWD right? Vs 4WD vehicles when we put to 4 High or 4 low front and rear get equal power right? When Honda AWD tried power on front wheels and not much on rear wheels it lost grip right? Would rear wheel biased AWDs like a BMW or Merc would perform better than a front wheel biased AWD? Sorry if that's wrong I'm really really an amateur just trying to learn.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

I'm an amateur trying to learn as much as I can too! Alan here. Maybe Nori can chime in if he sees this comment. Passport should be 50/50 at Fr/Rr and there are modes to change different biases. In this case, Jon was at 30/70, Fr/Rr in Sand mode and I recall Nori saying (off video in another discussion) 50/50 would be optimal. Vs an actual 4WD with a mechanical center lock, this vehicle uses a clutch pack that allows for slippage under extreme stress. I don't think BMW/Merc have actual mechanical center locks in their AWDs. There might be a button but I'm assuming it's a clutch pack. Without the Low Range Tcase, Passport attempted to take it with a bit more speed. You can see both front tires spinning far more than rear making a nasty yaw motion passenger side up that climb. We could try attempting slower to see if 20.4:1 crawl ratio can carry her all the way up. If not, gotta safely back down this hill and use just enough momentum to make it through.

@LionRunner

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer Thank you for that info. I'm so amatuer I googled "yaw motion". LoL.. I don't understand those crawl ratio talks either.. LoL. I've seen very impressive videos of BMW and Mercs AWD performance. Would love to buy a Jeep Wrangler someday and have some fun there. I guess the best way is to go with someone experienced and continue to watch videos like this. Thank you.. :)

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

@@LionRunner the mode I was in is 70% rear wheel biased with a simulate lock in the rear. The iVTM4 system is a bit more sophisticated than the Merc and BMW systems, but not as good as the old school Merc 4WD system. Nori (the man with the grey hair) explains what happens. I lost traction in the front wheels, and because of the right camber of the climb my vehicle started siding right. I was basically 2WD at that point, and you know that goes.

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

@@LionRunner the BMW that would most resemble the Honda Midsized vehicles would be the BMW X6 M-Sport with its twin clutch rear diff, but it’s not geared as well.

@LionRunner

3 жыл бұрын

@@JonDZ_Adventuring I see.. I thought those German brands have the best AWD systems. I was watching one video called "SUV Battle 2020" and thought those Germans have the best AWDs. Very nice to see those fancy tech. So for the Passport the mode you were in is constant 70% or "up to" 70%? I hear it use front wheels first and when a slip detects it sends power "upto" what ever amount they say. No sure, I don't understand those.

Glad you're okay man! Maybe you can engineer a real 50/50 lock in the transfer case?

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

We're all happy Jon kept the shiny side up. Speaking of engineering.. Hey TRAXDA!! YOU WANNA HEAR A COOL IDEA? 💡@JonDZ Adventuring @Traxda

My buddy with a built subi wanted to run this and I told him that's a bad idea. He doesn't have as much clearance but a lot of driving experience.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

There comes a point physics and angles reduces the impact of driving experience. A bit too dangerous for my tastes.

@eddyizm

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer yeah I agree. It would have been challenging enough for my lifted tacoma but the subi would have had a rough day and almost certainly some damage. Glad you didn't roll!

The mistake was letting off the throttle after the vehicle went sideways. He should have either let off the throttle sooner before the vehicle started to go sideways, OR stayed on the throttle and used the steering wheel to straighten out the vehicle before letting off the throttle. When the driver realized he was starting to go sideways with the wheels spinning, his reaction was to immediately STOP and let off the throttle. All he had to do was just stay calm and continue to let the wheels spin, staying on the throttle and counter steering with the steering wheel until the vehicle was pointing straight again, and then apply the brakes while simultaneously letting off the throttle. Then just put it into neutral, and roll straight back using brakes to control the rollback. If you watch built rock crawlers, you'll see them spinning tires on the incline just like this and using the steering wheel to make the vehicle go right and left while they're spinning the tires, trying to get a bite of traction. As long as you stay on the throttle in a gentle controlled manner and use your steering wheel, you're good. So the thing to remember is to never let off the throttle when your rig is sideways on very steep inclines. Always straighten out the rig before letting of the throttle, that is, as long as the rig hasn't started bouncing.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Appreciate your input! We've gotta go see some rock crawlers in action someday. Get schooled and make a day out of it, hopefully leaving with good lessons.

@solarinsocal6025

3 жыл бұрын

That would work if you had low range and a locked 4wd system. In a conventional 4wd system the torque split front to rear is always equal and that is what gives you the control that you speak of even with spinning tires on a hill. The problem with a vehicle like the Passport or modern unlocked center diff awd systems is that the driver has no control on where the power is going. In this case the Passport started to yaw because the awd system shifted power to the front and then to one side to feel out the problem on its own. At this point the driver has lost control of forward motion because he doesn't know what the car is doing. Trying to continue to go under such conditions is too dangerous. But yes, definitely for 4wd vehicles you can keep them spinning and pointed in the right direction.

I think if you had wider tires and softer rubber, you might have made it.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

There's so many factors. I'm sure more grip would definitely help. Another factor.. say momentum, would be interesting to test too. Other lines possibly? Anything to prevent the maxed out wheel droop and clockwise yaw.

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer the main reason Alan...... flex...... if I had more flex, I would have never lost traction

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

I wish I had footage of LC going up. I was slipping but not sure which tires and when. Maybe I hit that lump with too much speed

6:19 that's when I realized the sign says "END IT"

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Hahaha let's hope we don't end it on the trails!! 🤕

@FullsendOffroad

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer damn, that would NOT end well! I mean, did happen a few times with my quad and it didn't end well. Luckily I was never hurt. Either the Quad Broke down or it crashed. 3 crashes total in my time of riding

I have a question and definitely not meaning to be critical. Why did you think you needed to send it to go up this wall? It seems to me that you destabilized the car and didn't let the tires keep as much contact as possible. You would not do this if you were going up a paved hill???? I heard you say "all I could see was a wall" which may have caused you to panic????

@solarinsocal6025

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think there are any paved roads out there that are this steep. The problem with not having a low range T-Case is that the vehicle may not have enough torque to slowly crawl up this steep of a grade and most people have learned to use momentum to overcome the lack of torque multiplication. “Send It” has become something within the awd community to offset the lack of a low range and articulation as well as in defiance of having a CVT that simply stalls out. I hope this explanation will clarify a few points.

@rjsalameh

3 жыл бұрын

@@solarinsocal6025 I understand completely. I Don't have any experience with walls like that, but a lot of experience with loose terrain overall. I would be interested in seeing the Passport try that again, a bit slower and in D1 or whatever is the Passport equivalent equivalent. I have a hunch it would make it.

@solarinsocal6025

3 жыл бұрын

@@rjsalameh Yeah, we'll drag him back out there again to attack the same hill. He'll either do it without me pulling him or camp out at that spot until he makes. Lol

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

@@rjsalameh if you haven’t watched my video, give it a gander. Before the failed climb I successfully traversed other steep climbs. This one was just the steepest. It was also the longest. When I climbed it, it felt like it was “another climb”, just more gnarly.

@rjsalameh

3 жыл бұрын

@@JonDZ_Adventuring I am by no means being critical, not at all! I just want to be clear on that. Much respect for going out there and tackling that AND putting the near disaster out there for everyone to see!! Glad it all turned out ok, keep doing what you're doing!!

No love for the Land Rover guys?!? 😂😂 I won’t ask to join your runs then

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Hahahah! We kid, we kid. There was actually a Disco 2 in front of us for a small portion of the run. He and his friends were having a great time! Looked stock and made it through some butt clenching descents. Maybe I'll do an obstacle compilation video of Fins n Things. Have some footage of him.

First seems very stiff, and rock puts together that you need torque and traction, now the going up was discuss but no so much the going down which is normally as important. It was quick reaction so understandably you decide to brake, Yet, you went sideways because you press the brakes too hard once you are no going up you need to let it roll backwards and drive in reverse being aware of the space, rather than locking the brakes and be sliding unable to have any control. Just food for thought.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Appreciate the input, carlos. Locking up the front end going backwards is super scary. I understand the concept but in the driver's seat, I'm not sure what would happen in that split moment. Maybe getting the sensation of rolling backwards downhill on a gentler slope might help.

@carlossilviotube

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer true that. Thanks for answering, and it is easier once you see it. I have being in some awkward moments and you forget some of the tricks, specially when it happens so fast

18psi isn't remotely low. Especially for a light vehicle with stiff off road sidewalls.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

How low would you recommend he go?

@jeep6242

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer It really depends on how the tires look on the vehicle but for a technical trail probably 14-15 to start. AWD systems can sometimes be tricked by also letting a lot more air out of the rear (or leaving the front pumped up more) than the front. The temporary effective lower radius of the tire can make the system trigger earlier to bias more torque to the rear because the system will think the rate of spinning between front and rear is greater. I usually have heavier vehicles and very loaded vehicles and 18psi is my starting point for airing down but go down to 12-14 for technical stuff and even lower for short periods on sand if I am getting stuck. I have seen unloaded Subarus with d load BFGs not really start to flatten out until 12-14 psi. I don't really rock crawl hard or have bead locks but driving sensibly with lower pressures will save you from de-beading if you are prudent.

Search Kia Sorento hell's gate. Sorento and Passport have similar awd capability. That could be a good chance his Passport could have made it.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

I remember seeing that video a while back. They're crazy! Pretty awesome to see what that Sorento can do. This was my first time in Moab and we didn't have the chance to see Hell's Gate. Would have been pretty awesome to watch some rigs go up and finally attempt it myself. Too hard for me to make a comparison based off camera angles though. I'm sure seeing Hell's Gate & Hell's Revenge in person will turn up the fear factor.

@youngk.1838

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer yeah, I have never have been to Moab and that takes me a few days to get there from the east. One day, I have a chance to visit there.

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Wow, that's going to be one hell of a trip. Pun intended. Many sites to see along the way and back!

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

Young K, they had a professional driver and spotter and they destroyed the Sorrento! The Sorrento is geared 17:1 vs. the Passports 20:1 and at just has (had) a braked based AWD system. I’m highly suspect and I wonder if it was a publicity stunt. The Sorrento has never made it up TFL’s Gold mine hill, and never made it up Diriving sports TV’s cross cut hill. The Passport created the test on driving sports TV. Now the Telluride takes the place of the KIA’s big SUV and the sorrento gets a 2.0 turbo. I’d STILL BE TOO SCARED TO TRY! Hahhahaha 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

@@JonDZ_Adventuring I'd be so sad if this was a publicity stunt. Thought it was so cool 🥲

Jon needs a Jeep :)

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Vasil has spoken @JonDZ Adventuring

@JonDZ_Adventuring

3 жыл бұрын

Haha! One day!

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Exile

@MichaelMiller-rg6or

3 жыл бұрын

Or a 4Runner :)

Tons of talk when your rig is awd... way to over complicate the situation. That climb takes no skill, it is not hard. Front end got light, awd sends power to front. That's it..

@BorderlineExplorer

3 жыл бұрын

Exciting, isn't it? There's always going to be sweat on brows and moist palms when pushing a vehicle to its limits whether it is an awd in Moab or a road legal vehicle at King of Hammers.

@scrappyjackalope9558

3 жыл бұрын

@@BorderlineExplorer I bet it was exciting no doubt. Just not sure it needed so much analysis on why it happened.. AWD, steep, front end got lite, front tires spun, got exciting..hahaha