References for this discussion: General Resource: Anthony (2007) The Horse, the Wheel, and Language. Princeton University Press. Steppe Migration Papers: Haak et al. (2010) Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities. Plos Biology, 8(11): e1000536. doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536. Gronenborn & Horejs (2021) Spread of farming from Southwest Asia to Europe, between 9600 and 4000 BCE. www.academia.edu/9424525/Map_Expansion_of_farming_in_western_Eurasia_9600_4000_cal_BC_update_vers_2021_1_ Smith et al. (2015) Sedimentary DNA from a submerged site reveals wheat in the British Isles 8000 years ago. Science, 347(6225), 998-1001. doi.org/10.1126/science.1261278. Haak et al. (2015) Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe. Nature, 522, 207-211. doi.org/10.1038/nature14317. Narasimhan et al. (2019) The formation of human populations in South and Central Asia. Science, 365(6457), eaat7487. doi.org/10.1126/science.aat7487. Nordqvist and Heyd (2020) The forgotten child of the wider Corded Ware family: Russian Fatyanovo culture in context. Proceedings of the Prehistoric Society, 86, 65-93. doi.org/10.1017/ppr.2020.9. Olalde et al. (2018) The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe. Nature, 555(7695), 190-196. doi.org/10.1038/nature25738. Allentoft et al. (2015) Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia. Nature, 522, 167-172. doi.org/10.1038/nature14507. Racimo et al. (2020) The spatiotemporal spread of human migrations during the European Holocene, PNAS, 117(16), 8989-9000. doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1920051117. Dissenting Papers on the Steppe Migrations: Klejn (2018) The Steppe hypothesis of Indo-European origins remains to be proven. Acta Archaeologica, 88(1), 193-204. doi.org/10.1111/j.1600-0390.2017.12184.x. Balanovksy et al. (2017) Genetic differentiation between upland and lowland populations shapes the Y-chromosomal landscape of West Asia. Human Genetics, 136(4), 437-450. doi.org/10.1007/s00439-017-1770-2.

@kennethmoore5458

2 жыл бұрын

i would like to hear @The Histocrat answer these same questions.

@Davlavi

2 жыл бұрын

I think this needs to be pined.

@Mysarlo

2 жыл бұрын

I heartily appreciate your commitment to citation.

@ajaxslamgoody9736

2 жыл бұрын

I like your stuff, but I don't believe in Micro evolution, but I like the Historical stuff and the legends stuff too. Good work.

@josem.deteresa2282

Жыл бұрын

Two points that might be of interest to you. Maybe the domestication of horses first happened in the Botai culture (Cfr. Wikipedia, with an academic reference), however the Yamna might have done that independetly. Second, it seems that also in the Iberian peninsula there was a complete Y-genome replacement in a few centuries time span (Olalde et al. 2019, "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years", Science).

Oooooofff, doesn't get much hotter than this.

@yungpep

2 жыл бұрын

Still eagerly awaiting your MAMMOTH video

@kylegriffin7872

2 жыл бұрын

Histocrat is a handsome bloke ain't he

@mikenunz

2 жыл бұрын

@@kylegriffin7872 Im getting a young Warwick Davis vibe.

@robertmacdonaldch5105

2 жыл бұрын

1:12:00 wasnt the English Channel drastically smaller, shallower, and even not existent back then? Like Doggerland?

@wheatgrowssweet

2 жыл бұрын

How come you've never told us about your children's book?

There's a disturbing lack of a plastic spoon in Stefan's hand

@StefanMilo

2 жыл бұрын

Spoon was being interviewed over on the fantano channel. He's dropping an album and is pretty busy.

@tick999

2 жыл бұрын

My girlfriend immediately said where's his spoon 🥄😢

@tick999

2 жыл бұрын

@@citycrusher9308 give them a watch! you might enjoy 👍😊

Two of my favorite KZread channel hosts, and both are fans of illustrator Ettore Mazza.

aside from the missing spoon, a brilliant conversation between two of the best creators on the intertubes

An update since this interview went live, there's been another major study released that appears to overturn some aspects of what we said. It now seems there was also significant population movement going on in North Eastern/Central Europe during the late Neolithic and prior to the Yamnaya migrations. Here's the link if anyone is interested. advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/35/eabi6941

@memyselfi0120

2 жыл бұрын

I read the paper. And it doesn't just overturn some aspects of what your saying , it prooves it all wrong. The paper states clearly the cultures like Corded- ware and Bell Beaker do not show direct descent from the Yamnaya, yet that was suppose to be the proof for a mass migration... it also shows genetic continuity from the Neolithic among these cultures, up to 1500 years before this migration was supposed to takes place. So there you have it folks, the Kurgan Hypothesis is dead in the water. If you don't agree, then acknowledge the paper for yourself and read carefully.

@nodruj8681

2 жыл бұрын

@@memyselfi0120 You seem overly happy about your comment, almost as if you have something to push rather than a simple explanation of the 'evidence'

@memyselfi0120

2 жыл бұрын

@@nodruj8681 Read and weep dude, I didn't write the paper. On the contrary, these Kurgan supporters with there youtube channels seem to blatantly ignore the contradictory evidence in their videos. To me its a dead give away that they have an alterior motivation behond prooving a scientific theory.

Somewhere there's a parallel universe where Stefan has a channel about Chili Pepper farming and I work at Domino's betraying my Italian roots.

Thank you both for all your videos. You have both ignited and fed my passion for history, archeology and human origins.

Interesting chat. I have to put in a word for David Howe though. Even though his dog domestication video took a little longer than expected, it is still one of the best videos on your channel (Stefan Milo) suits your style and audience beautifully, and introduced me to the field of ethnocynology which I had never considered before.

I'm also a big fan of Casey Neistat. Though I discovered him way later than Stefan from the sounds of it. It was 2018 ish for me. I like that he's kind of retired now cos he smashed the video game so much now he can just relax and live his life. KZreadr goals

@NettiGaming

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely.

When I was very young I found the National Geographic. I was so hooked on history and geography and anthropology. I never did follow my dreams but your channels have allowed me explore it all again. I want to thank you both for all your hard work. 🙏

Massive expectations. Massive. My introduction to Mr Milo was a clip where he looked stoned and was talking to a plastic spoon, the legend. It’s all been upwards since then. You both are interesting, informative, witty and have a well balanced and engaging style. And a scientific analysis to boot. Good stuff.

Awesome! I can't wait to watch this video! It has my favorite archeology youtuber! You both do a fantastic job, love ya both!

We love the way you look, Stephen. It adds character and relatability.

Super interesting chat guys, enjoyed every piece of it! The linguistic perspective perfectly supports your statement how important cattle was economically: the origin of the English word "fee" is actually the word for cattle. In German e.g. "Vieh" (exact same pronunciation as fee /fiː/) means just cattle :-)

When Milo hears the U.S Air Force above, he gets strangely nervous.

I got into history when we studied the constitution in 7th grade. The 13th amendment outlaws slavery, just like we are taught, except it doesn’t. It makes private slavery illegal while codifying the right for government to own slaves. All of a sudden I had to study and read to find the history that wasn’t being taught in schools. Tell Stephan he needs more spoon patrons. Great show. As for competing with documentaries, have you looked at the scripts from the ‘90s? They suck. Watered down crap. You guys are vital for your focus on what really happened. And as a prehistory and Bronze Age nut I will say that nothing compares well against your work. Pottery is the technology that killed prehistory and birthed history. That’s an epiphany moment for home study historians. Love to see that developed.

The Fall of Civilization Podcast has to be one of my favorites of all time.

We love you both, pre-ordering your book for the kids Stefan. 😍

Stefan definitely has the right shaped head for a circle beard.

@nanettemccrone25

2 жыл бұрын

I think he is handsome 😍

Oh my goodness. How wonderful. Thank you for this. ♡ CHARLES: I'd love you to talk on your mythology podcasts about giants in culture across the world. Like cyclops in ancient Greece, giants in British culture, and giants in Scandinavia ect. Xxxx STEFAN: I live in Staffordshire and we have some smashing historical POE Stefan. I was like you. Surrounded by history. My earliest memories is a book of ancient Egypt. And I still have that book. I still pour over old history books and it's hard if you don't get the history love. But you are right. It is soo cool.

Stefan described perfectly why I love Geology. Being out in the miserable cold and wet, middle of nowhere, drinking with friends, doing illegal things, and learning about history. My history is a bit older though!

Around 43-44 minutes in, when you're talking about how much has been overturned or clarified with archaeogenetics and so on, on that note I recently rewatched yourr Bronze Age Collapse video and really wish you would do a sequel to that video to update it! It remains one of my faves that you've done and was my introduction to your channel but I'd love to see The 2021 Histocrat (or 2022 or 2023 as the schedule allows lmao) take on the Bronze Age Collapse up to date with current scholarship, especially around the Sea Peoples theorized origins. That aside, love this collab convo and looking forward to more! Love both of your channels a great deal!

@freandwhickquest

2 жыл бұрын

what did change about the bronze age collapse?

@YouTubdotCub

2 жыл бұрын

@@freandwhickquest check out History Time's video on the Sea Peoples and the Bronze Age Collapse for some more updated info compared to Histocrat's old vid!

Wow, this was unexpected. Hearing the other videos on The Histocrat's channel, I always had the impression, there is a 60-year old man telling me from the distant past. But in fact, he's apparently far younger.

@wendychavez5348

2 жыл бұрын

I thought he was rather scribe-like as well. What a nice surprise!

Enjoyable chat, thanks. It's possible the Yamnaya were not the people who expanded into Europe but a closely related group like the Sredny Stog. The Sredny Stog may have moved across the Dnieper and merged with the Globular Amphora culture. It was this mixing that led to the Corded Ware culture which expanded across northern Europe, mixing with other Neolithic cultures like the Funnelbeaker. And it was Corded Ware groups who ultimately then migrated in probably large scale folk migrations eastwards across the steppe to create what would become the Andronovo and Sintashta cultures and others. Exactly how violent these processes were is interesting. There is evidence for violence as you said, including weapons appearing in cultures on both sides of the Dnieper and words related to violence and stuff like raiding and slavery. Interestingly, the weapon most associated with the Corded Ware - the stone battle axe - probably came from the Neolithic farmers and was adopted by the Corded Ware. So it was to some extent undoubtedly a synthesis genetically and culturally. This is such a fascinating and important period, great to see you discussing it.

@josem.deteresa2282

Жыл бұрын

Interesting! Could you please cite any souces for that?

Big fan of you both. Found stephan through histocrat

@NettiGaming

2 жыл бұрын

Me too. I was in a hotel room for two weeks, 2 years ago studying in Manchester away from home, and you tube was my refuge. And that's how I found the histocrat. Been an avid follower ever since.

Great video and series idea, Stefan is a great guy to start off the series quick hi from uni of sheff :)

This is what I'm gonna sleep to.

@buttercxpdraws8101

2 жыл бұрын

Lol. Same. Then watch again tomorrow. Sleep well 🥱😴💤

@petras8385

2 жыл бұрын

Nice, same

My two favorite history creators, oh yeah! 😎

Wonderful talk gentlemen.

Who is this charlatan? This imposter has no spoon!

@lcmiracle

2 жыл бұрын

Stefen here rakin' in that Big Monies

@StefanMilo

2 жыл бұрын

@@lcmiracle don't hate the player, hate the game.

@cameronrambone7895

2 жыл бұрын

Came here to say the same thing

Facinating conversation gents.

Don’t worry how you look Milo! We love you how you are.

Don't remember where I've read this but it seemed to make sense... ancient people thought God was in the sky and said mother earth... the logic behind that is ancient people noticing how rain made plants and such grow, so they saw that as the seed of God giving life to mother earth.

@Didacmmv

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, anyone can connect the dots, we die of thirst before we die of hunger, it rains, it pours, it rains it pours, I mean, plants grow with that same water that keeps us alive, why isn't water more the key piece for those cultures and it's just about everything else, like wind, earth, I'm clueless.

I'd love a video on Neolithic pottery if I'm honest. Any artisanal craft done in ancient times would grab my attention

@PerryTribeMetalBaker

2 жыл бұрын

I always wished that Phil Harding from time team had done an online series of his own on stone age technology and the differing knapping techniques each used, with demonstrations, of course :D

Really eagerly awaiting the 2nd kong vid. Please dont make perfect the enemy of good and take ages due to perfectionism!

Came for the spoon stayed for the conversation

OK, I am a late comer, but I love you both for what you do. I hope you continue your creation.

You should talk to Survive the Jive about this topic.

Honestly an hour in when the conversation goes to archaeologists ripping on the fact a lack of the multiple cultures makes it apparent the fact just how distanced we are, that the culture isn't just a pottery style but life style

Oh cool. Something extremely catered to me with two people I totally don't know.

This is awesome

bravo! more!

at 1:13:30, "Just two guys talking about stuff that they've read...": Academia!

Worcester gang rise up!

@silasvongreenback264

2 жыл бұрын

Worcester is twinned with Kleve in Germany. However Worcester is considered to have a more advanced social network as most of the inhabitants are related to each other.

"I'm sat here with my beans in the background... There is a charm in that." - Stefan Milo

You should do a history discussion with History with Cy.

Marvel: Infinity War is the most ambitious crossover of all time Stefan and Histocrat: hold my early hominids

Book Title: The Poo's eye view of Human History Author Quote: 1:04:35 "I'm really looking forward to it coming out" ... ahem 😄

Small talk ends about 1:07:00

I thought the supposed link between pacific islanders and south america was a genetic one with some random tribe in the amazon; not based on boats.

I'm going to redact this for propriety reasons but I would [....] The Histocrat

What's the white book next to FDR? 2nd time I've seen it and it jumps out.

Nice

I would like to ask if you got any serious research about Mpumalanga site.

the transportation of things is the one thing that can be debated a lot at this point... my main question is why do it if its so hard...maybe just maybe they had some unknown easy method we just cant fathom... tech is like magic to the unknowning

That crow sure loves to heckle.

Who is the guy that did the vampire episode with you...

Trust me. Many U.S.ians hate that dramatic shit.

Excited to watch this but first impressions: I feel like you two should run some kind of a game show.

Sad that the edutainment establishment couldn't find useful work for you folks to do. I guess KZread is a nice silver lining?

I think the fact that there are little genetical traces of neolithic European males is probably connected to a combination of Lifestyle and inheritance-culture of the Yamnaya-people. If we suppose that the Cattle-herding Lifestyle was an evolutionary advantage at that time (food security, not being bound to waterways etc.). If additionally, as the evidence you guys cited suggests, the Yamnaya were male dominated and the Cattle stock was always inherited by male offspring. Then the genetic result we see today may have evolved naturally just by intermarriage. Because then the women of the "native" European marrying a Yamnaya man would have more children survive than a Yamnaya women (who doesn't get any of the Cattle stock and so her family doesn't have the evolutionary advantage) marrying a native man. And thus the Yamanya man - local woman (and also both parent being Yamnaya) combination was just relatively much more successful (evolutionary speaking) than the Yamnaya woman - local man combination. And so over time the proportion of the Yamnaya haplo group increases. Though I feel ther was probably also some raiding and pillaging going on... wouldn't be the first time.

Noticed you haven't posted in a while. We're offering a Paid Partnership if you'd be interested. If so, go to the "About" Section of this Channel and reach out via the email listed! Looking forward to hearing from you! Cheers! - Cody Winn Marketing Team

I hate to thumbs down anything, but the times I had to hit fast forward before you two ever actually got to the point was frustrating.

I had to do a double take on the name.

WHAAAAAT?

Spoon??????????????

Steppe migrants, coming over here, stealing our flint knapping.

If there are 2 types of R1b then what is the point of calling it "R1b"? My understanding is that Y-chromosome haplotypes are exact, if there is a difference, then you have a new haplotype. That's the point of haplotypes. As far as the controversy...if you have 100% replacement of Y-chromosome haplotypes, I think you can call that a conquest. Otherwise you'll have to propose voluntary celibacy of neolithic men once the Yamnaya showed up. Also, killing all the men isn't genocide (menocide?). Genocide is killing everybody. People in the past have no obligation to behave the way you want them too, and I'm pretty sure they don't care what you have to say about them. The evidence seems to indicate that they were murderous thugs. Which is precisely why, if you are European, they are almost certainly your ancestors. Don't feel bad, everyone has scumbag ancestors. Welcome to the Human race. I see no controversy here.

You kinda look like van Damme

Calling things like archeological artifacts like pottery boring? What is this heresy?

The host is b a d. Wish I could interview you.

Algorithm comment cuz!

Fanboy moment

Glad he has no spoon, this running gag ran its course

@naciremasti

2 жыл бұрын

You're in the minority with that statement.

@kylegriffin7872

2 жыл бұрын

The spoon will live for eternity

@TheGahta

2 жыл бұрын

@@naciremasti so you're telling me that you base your opinion on majority not on if it makes sense for you? Glad I'm not you

@justinlaw9336

2 жыл бұрын

Speak for urself...

I don't like Stephen Milo

After an hour of bloviating BS, I moved along.

@silasvongreenback264

2 жыл бұрын

I managed a whole nine minutes.

@StefanMilo

2 жыл бұрын

You can bloviate deez nuts

@jayvynn2391

2 жыл бұрын

@@StefanMilo lmao

@justinlaw9336

2 жыл бұрын

@@StefanMilo Haha right on!