An interesting part to keep in mind is that both Soo Won's awakening and Krait migration on Quaggans happened before the Rise of Orr when Zhaitan awakened. So regardless of what the true identity of Melaggan may be, it still has strong ties with the mystery behind the krait migration at the depths of the Unending Ocean. Melaggan seemed to live among quaggans, however Soo Won moved to Cantha pretty much as soon as she awakened according to Ela Makkay. So the more plausible explanation would be if Melaggan were a Champion of Soo Won while Soo Won was dormant and was left behind during her awakening, and later died protecting the Quaggans. As salt spray dragons are capable of shapeshifting it's not unreasonable why Quaggan could acknowledge worship through statues of Melandru of a humanoid largos (for example) and also Soo Won's dragon shape or power as Melaggan's. (One hole here is that Quaggans lack acknowledgement of other Saltspray Dragon champions at all, but it could be just that they recognize only the highest power as Melaggan's)

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

Could the awakening of Soo-Won be perhaps tied to the death of Mellaggan? As in Mellaggan died and therefore awakening Soo-Won who absorbed her powers through her awakening? I think one of the issues here is that we don't know the exact timelines of when things happened. I just love having this mystery about this goddess that could perhaps lead to more.

@NewNecro

6 ай бұрын

@@Aerali Assuming they're different entities I believe Mellaggan entity would've died after Soo-Won awakened and left: The circumstances of Mellaggan's death are strongly associated with the Krait invasion (killed by krait according to Quaggan), which ties either to Soo-Won's awakening or the Horror/s of Unending Ocean (unknown force/entity/entities) pushing them out. Assuming Soo-Won awakened after the Krait migration began, (if she's still mentally the Soo-Won we know) I think she would've indeed sought to protect or guide the Quaggans instead of abandoning them by going to Cantha as the Soo-Won's meta's Quaggan was in much disbelief about. -If she couldn't- -help by- -retreating to Cantha- -then it- -should've been- -very noteworthy- -for Soo-Won- -being successfully- -opposed by- -something other- -than the- -Void or- -her children- -due to the- -first-hand experience- .** Edit: Disregard. Especially latter part of paragraph above is wrong since the Horrors which pushed Krait migrations from Unending Ocean began well after the Rise of Orr, when Soo-Won already left. If she awakened prior to the Krait invasion, it would be much more speculative to piece Mellaggan being killed by Krait if Mellaggan died prior to their invasions. Since we're going on the assumption of Quaggans storytellers being sincerely mistaken, not flat out wrong on the entire account. So, Soo-Won awakening prior to the Krait invasion and leaving for Cantha unaware of Quaggans' fate and Mellaggan entity dying later during the Krait invasions is what seems the most coherent course of events to me.

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

@@NewNecro That is problem though. If we assume that Soo-Won left prior to the Kraits invading the Quaggans homelands then everything the Quaggan in Dragon's End says is false since Mellaggan would have still been alive and that would make it odd that he would mistake one for the other. The Quaggan knows in detail about how Soo-Won left the Unending Ocean to help the Canthans. If this was a case of mistaken identity, then I doubt this Quaggan would know the exact details of Soo-Wons awakening/leaving. Tbh the whole conversation with the Quaggan in Dragon's End is very odd to me. Why does he insist that she changed her name? That is very weird. I feel like if they were the same entity, then Anet would have left more hints to that rather than just 1 random NPC. If Mellaggan was a champion of Soo-Won or Saltspray dragon or something along those lines, I also find it weird that we didn't get ANY info on this at all, since technically we are completely done with the Elder Dragon story. I find that those pieces don't really fit together. If Mellaggan or even the Quaggans had played any part in Soo-Wons life (outside of my theory that she just absorbed Mellaggans magic) then I feel like they would've been mentioned by Soo-Won or we would have at least seen more evidence of this like more Quaggans in Cantha that followed Soo-Won or some dialogue from Joon or Kunnavang, something like that. Soo-Won spend a lot of time in Cantha since the rising of Orr was many years ago, but no one talks about what she did prior to that. Did she really not talk about living this other life underwater however many years she was there? I'm really starting to think that the death of Mellaggan was the trigger to awakening Soo-Won who left immediately after that and the 2 have no relation since other than the Quaggans dialogue in Dragon's End we have no evidence of ANY association. If Mellaggan was a champion of Soo-Won or made by Soo-Won's magic I'm sure either Kuunavang or Soo-Won herself would have made at least a small mention of this somewhere. I think the 2 have no association with each other. The biggest problem is finding out what the timeline is on when events happen. Did Mellaggan die before the rising of Orr or after? Either way it seems there are many possibilities on what or who Mellaggan is, I personally just hope she isn't associated with the Elder Dragon since I'm glad we have finished that whole chapter and wouldn't want to get pulled back in to having to deal with dragon stuff. Like I said before I really think that Anet is probably never going to touch underwater stuff in the way that I would hope for them to do but who knows?

@NewNecro

6 ай бұрын

@@Aerali I think it's fine because the Quaggans wouldn't have necessarily met Soo-Won while Mellaggan was alive in the case of mistaken identity, since we can assume Soo-Won wasn't destructive, only few tied to her might've realized* she awakened. I don't think the Quaggan at Dragon's End knew about the historical timeline, but rather deduced it from the circumstance of magic artifacts like from Eye of the Ocean orbs in New Kaineng. If those orbs have been there for several decades it's quite plausible to assume that this Mellaggan abandoned them to stay with humans rather than the Quaggan being aware of the historical time discrepancy between the more recent Krait migration when Mellaggan might've died and the Rise of Orr. I agree that if they wanted to wrap up Mellaggan with being just Soo-Won it's incredibly weak, and frankly the whole dialogue feels like a tongue-in-cheek tease. Being unmentioned is actually the part I find compelling in my theory: because the "Champion" Mellaggan leads a parallel existence in the oceanic depths where only Soo-Won and Quaggans would know about her, not Kuunavang or others from Cantha would know much if anything about her to talk about. Thus after Soo-Won left for Cantha she might've been unaware of her former Champion's fate until it was too late but it would be too uncouth to single out mourning for her for unknown (to her) circumstances, while deaths of her Elder Dragon children would've been far more emotionally pressing within the narrative. To be wholly honest, I don't think she was ever envisioned to be anything more than a vague entity being mistaken for Melandru and the Dragon's End Quaggan is just a soft joke on people overanalyzing on parts of the lore left not fleshed out (Like Nightmare Court in HoT). Personally I'd much rather the story was within the confines of the known World dealing with the aftermath of Elder Dragons rather than a categorical no to anything related to it. There's quite a few loose ends to explore in lore but I get that something completely new makes for a lot more hype.

I fear that the writers at arenanet have used Soo-won as an underwater scapegoat, judging by the Quaggan's odd explanations in Dragon's End. But I enjoy these theories, they're certainly more interesting! Perhaps in the next expansion we will at the very least get more details on the effect Soo-won's abandonment and death has had on the underwater denizens. Even if we don't get to fully explore it ourselves.

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

It does feel like it was cop out answer to have Soo-Won be Mellaggan. That's why I tried to somehow rectify it because it's a hugely missed opportunity. But then again we might never ever go underwater and then Mellaggan wouldn't matter anyway.

Loving the lore and speculation videos, it feels like this aspect of my enjoyment of the game has been mising ever since WP became quieter and there's been no real speculative stuff since there was a lot on Cantha

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

Yes, unfortunately it's taken a backseat for the community as a whole in the last few years. Although, it is still my major focus of the game and will continue to be so. Hopefully, one day, the community will get back to the old speculation and lore stuff like it used to be!

Did you noticed the Krypts dialogue in Inner Nayos when they don't know that the player is near? If not you should take a look at it.

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

I have noticed some of it. The ones I have seen speak of the queen and the how Eparch is absent and such. Anything concerning the gods? I'll be keeping my eyes out.

Are there any examples of the Human gods interacting so much with non-Humans? I feel like the deities in Tyria tend to interact with only one race- Human gods with the Humans, Spirits of the Wild with the Norn, etc. There certainly is room for connections between the pantheons, the Eternal Alchemy is still quite shrouded in mystery after all, but it seems like ANet has been leaning away from overt connections like this. We've seen lots of god-level beings with overlapping domains, but never any reason to think Mordremoth and Melandru are blood relatives. Mellaggan and Soo-Won are both entities we've been intentionally kept in the dark on. All the knowledge about Mellaggan would have to come through the Quaggan, who don't maintain a detailed written history. The wiki even says that they are more polite than honest in this particular matter. Land-based historians don't have documents or artifacts to base their assertions on. Until EoD we didn't know anything about Soo-Won other than their name began with "S" and their domain was water. I imagine all the information we got in EoD about Soo-Won and the dragons that had no build up in previous releases is part of why the theorycrafting scene has slowed way down. Both beings were always meant to be as hidden and uncertain as the depths of the sea. I certainly hope there's more to learn about them both somewhere beneath the waves.

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

I mean you are correct for sure on that many a things here are mostly just me trying to make the pieces fit based on the narrative that Anet has created. I'm sure Anet probably had other plans for Mellaggan at some point but we are now at a point in development where a majority of the developers are new and perhaps some of the original people that created the overarching narrative, specifically that of the different pantheons, don't work at Anet anymore. So, certain things will probably look a little conflicting when we look at the details. I just try to find a way to make it all work in a way without sacrificing too much of what has been told or just coming up with completely random bullshit. I try at least. I'm sure there are people that think I failed pretty hard at it 🤣 I think one of the reasons why certain pantheons only interacted with their respective peoples is because of location. The human gods for example brought humans from wherever and resided in Orr which was, as far as we know, exclusively human. During their reign humans also came in control of most of central Tyria. Many races hadn't developed very much at the time. Same with the norn. They worship the animal totems that seem only present within the shiverpeak mountains. In EotN most of the shiverpeak mountains (at least the far ones) are only occupied by Norn. Again, obviously I think Anet can twist the lore however they want which means that everything and anything we speculate on could be thrown out by the next release. As someone mentioned on another comment, Kryptis are a great example. Apparently they have been trying to invade Tyria for centuries now but we have NEVER heard or seen them until now. That is why I tried to connect them to Flesh reavers in a couple of videos I made before SotO came out, only for it to lead nowhere because Anet didn't connect any dots that could have made sense. So, now we are left with this weird situation where these beings have been trying to invade since before the Astral ward was formed but we have never seen or heard about them in either game which is just such a shame.

I think you have a very good theory here. I like it enough that I'm just going to assume that you're right! :D

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

Buhaha while I do appreciate it very much, I do happen to be wrong on some of these things often. Although, my hope is that we will get something along those lines and the whole Mellaggan thing wasn't retconned with the Soo-Won dialogue haha

@battleboozex

6 ай бұрын

Wrong or right, I really enjoy the concept of Mellaggan being a half-god who died heroically to save the Quaggan, and Soo-Won's only part in this is that she absorbed Mellaggan's magic. I'm not sure what I think about an entire underwater expansion, but I do like the idea of at least one large zone that is an island with a large accessible underwater area.

@battleboozex

6 ай бұрын

How about Mellaggan being a Dragon champion of Soo-Won?

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

Yes I can seiously agree on all that for sure! @@battleboozex

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

The issue that I see with involving Soo-Won in any way, especially if Mellaggan is a champion of hers, that it would be extremely odd that we never hear Kuunavang or Soo-Won mention this at all. I also think that if this is the case then we would've had much more involvement of the Quaggans in Cantha. If the "master" of their deity appeared around the time they fled due to the invasion of the Krait and their goddess died, I would think many of the Quaggans would have followed Soo-Won to Cantha. So, I really don't think the 2 are very closely associated but probably knew of each other's existence in some shape or form. Obviously, all of this could be wrong but who knows? I still think Mellaggan is one of those mysteries that needs to be explored in the future of Guild Wars.

very very interesting theory!!

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

Thank! I appreciate it!

@La.máquina.de.los.sueños

6 ай бұрын

Over 10 years, I never put much thoughts into Mellagan... thinking it was only Quaggan fantasies... but now, I'm very curious!!!! 🤓

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

@@La.máquina.de.los.sueños haha yeah the silly things I pay attention to 🤣 I don't expect anyone else to really get into these things as I do.

I was mad when they decided to pin the story of Mellagan on Soo-Won, but I'd actually be enraged if they retconned it to be one of the human gods, either Melandru or an offspring. The gods are old, but they don't predate the previous elder dragon cycle. It'd be like suggesting that the Norn totem spirits are actually manifestations of the human gods. But I think that if anything, Mellagan is more like a saltspray dragon. Created by Soo-won, and granted a portion of her power, she acts as a representative for Soo-won while she slept. The quaggan mistakes Soo-won for Mellagan, and doesn't mistake other saltspray dragons, 1) because there are so few saltsprays left and you barely see any to accuse, but more importantly, 2) Mellagan had Soo-won's colouring, in the same way as Navan/Kuunavang takes on Soo-won's colouring, and says as much to Albax in Arborstone. That opens up the lore so that Mellagan is actually capable of death, as well as the limitations of her powers that would drive her to encourage the quaggans to flee to shallower waters.

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

Not sure why the gods not predating the Elder Dragon cycle (which only means they haven't been on Tyria that long, but we do not know how long they existed before then) is such a bad thing? I personally really would hate the idea of Mellaggan being a Saltspray dragon. As far as we have seen in the universe of GW, Saltspray dragons only exist in the Jade Sea. We have never seen one outside of even Cantha. So, having the quaggan goddess be a Saltspray dragon when they come from the Unending Ocean seems kinda odd to me. I think the developers making the connection to Melandru was very intentional early on in the lifecycle of GW2 but it seems something changed and they retconned it to be connected to Soo-Won, possibly because they perhaps thought to wrap up the idea of Mellaggan without actually getting into it, but I really like the initial idea of her having some connection to Melandru in some way. I really would want the whole idea of what is going on with the quaggans to be separate from Soo-Won and move on from the story of the Elder Dragons. Although, I would want to see the story of Kuunavang and the Saltspray dragons see some conclusion, I don't know if tying it together with the lore of the Unending Ocean races is the best idea, but hey to each their own, since all of this is pure conjecture anyways. I really think that Anet is probably never going to touch underwater content in a major way like this, so I doubt we would even get the answer to any of these questions, sadly.

@battleboozex

6 ай бұрын

Ohhhh a powerful Saltspray.... Neat idea! I'm not opposed to the Human gods connection, but I don't mind this either.

@Wyrdnairon

6 ай бұрын

@@Aerali Mellagan = Melandru is bad because some people are tired of the human gods having an iron grip on the lore of GW2. Humanity has only been on Tyria for ~2000 years here, the human gods and Melandru didn't exist before that, and 1336 years since the gods' exodus, but the first elder dragon cycle was 20,000 years ago. Quaggans worship at underwater Melandru temples, probably because those temples were built on sites already holy to Mellagan, or Melandru killed Mellagan for her power, in the same way as Grenth displaced Dhuum. Anyway, I didn't say A SALTSPRAY, I said LIKE one, a dragonoid at any rate, since it couldn't explain the arctic quaggans' worship if they were limited to the Unending Ocean. But given how crazy different Soo-won is from Melandru/Mellagan in terms of attitude, it seems unlikely to me that Soo-won herself is Mellagan.

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

Hmm interesting take on the gods stuff. I have always seen people wanting the gods to come back into the story. But like I said to each their own. It would be cool to get some lore on events that we aren't privy to or have heard of outside of what is known since humans entered Tyria. I find the most interesting about Mellaggan = Melandru is that we actually only ever see 1 statue of Melandru being worshipped. So, it could really be that Melandru so being mistaken for Mellaggan. On the other hand, I feel like if this was the case Quaggans wouldn't be so insistent on them being different entities. If it's just about worshipping a statue that's underwater and it might resemble what their goddess looks like, I feel like the Quaggans wouldn't just have this one Melandru statue that they are worshipping at but they would worship a statue of Dwayna or something as well (Orr had many statues of Dwayna that were underwater close to a Quaggan village for example). I think there are some inconsistency on the lore part there. But hey, maybe if Anet ever decides to tackle underwater stuff it they can explain it and hopefully not retcon too much.

Interesting take! The breadcrumbs are there, I just hope they will not bring everything on the shores: I wold prefer nothing over losing such an underwater opportunity

@Aerali

6 ай бұрын

Yes, I agree with this. The "underwater" aspect of the Soo-Won was such a lost opportunity. Big shame really. Let's not repeat that