Interesting, I swapped to an ortholinear design about a year ago (the Planck, specifically) and it actually completely resolved the hand pain I used to have when typing a lot. Now I did also pair the switch with going with Colemak-DH though, so I don't know for sure which aspect actually did the heavy lifting there, or maybe it was just a combination! I do find it fascinating how wildly the experiences can differ though. When I first got my keyboard it took me just a few days to adjust and it felt better to use right away. However when I tried showing a family member she just absolutely hated it and said it was too confusing and just could not get used to it at all. So really the moral of the story is: there is no universal layout. You should go with something that makes sense for your specific usecase and preferences. Kind of like with literally anything else. I'm glad we have all these cool options so that people can actually experiment and find things that suit them better than what the norm is. :)

@va1orance

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, that's absolutely true. Some keyboards just work for some, and some don't.

@GreatWalker

8 ай бұрын

Hehe, excuse my rudeness, the moral I got from that story is that if people are forced to get used to a bad thing, most people will keep doing a bad thing unconsciously. If she willingly used it for a couple of days too, maybe your experiences would more similar.

@va1orance

8 ай бұрын

@@GreatWalker No worries, I probably could've been a bit more clear. The things I mentioned in the video were my personal experience and that will vary from person to person!

@GreatWalker

8 ай бұрын

@@va1orance oh, I was replying to @Psoewish ‘s story

I've never got on with staggered keyboards. Got a Planck in 2021 and immediately loved it. I use it daily for full time software development.

The points of ortholinear are not only finger movement, but more importantly the left wrist bending so tiny keyboards regardless if it is orthrolinear is already bad, but ID75 with alphabets distributed on the sides and TypeMatrix almost have no wrist bending issue.

A split ortholinear keyboard is still an ortholinear keyboard. It's frustrating that you kept that until the end of the very end of the video where you even debunked most of this video yourself.

@va1orance

6 ай бұрын

I'm pretty sure I explained very clearly in the beginning I don't consider a split ortho board a strictly "othrolinear keyboard". All split keyboards regardless of layout* I consider as a part of "split styled"* keyboards. Edit: I meant split as a category, not as one specific type of keyboard. They were created to solve the very problem created from "orthro bricks", so they don't have a place in this video.

@guinea_horn

5 ай бұрын

​@@va1oranceyou're so right, two things can't be true at the same time /s

@sorvex9

2 ай бұрын

@@va1oranceguess you are dumb then, too bad.

@MaximilianBerkmann

2 ай бұрын

​@va1orance You say that but not all split keyboards are equal, some are ortholinear, some are column-staggered (like the ErgoDox EZ) and others are curved downwards (like the Glove80).

@va1orance

2 ай бұрын

​ @MaximilianBerkmann Yes, however, they don't have the problems I mentioned specifically because they are split. To clarify, I am talking strictly about single PCB keyboards (well, even then, they have split designs like the Atreus). The main point is they don't have a place in this video. I would consider them solutions to the problem created by "orthro bricks" themselves. Also, yes, I am aware there are: - Orthrolinear split - Manuform/Dactyl split (hopefully getting one soon :D) - Staggered split - Column staggered split (+1) - some other wacky ones I'd love to test them to see if they actually do anything, but they're all so expensive :d. One last note, to clarify any confusion, I meant split as a "subcategory" of ergo boards. I did word it rather poorly. Keyboards > Ergo Keyboards > Split keyboards > all the varients

7:34 If you rotate your wrist towards a more neutral position, your fingers will no longer go in the direction of the wrist and instead go forward in the horizontal plane.

Some people do prefer tiny ortholinears though, even coming back to them after using split keyboards

I'm equally confused about monoblock ortholinears and staggered splits

Man, you wouldn't believe the stupid smirk on my face discovering this video RIGHT AFTER I just tabbed out of finishing a jstris match using my Ortholinear keyboard omg lmao

@va1orance

9 ай бұрын

Lol, it works great as a gamepad.

Great video, learned some history for sure. I'm using 40% ortho split because I need to access special characters often.

I run an Idobao ID75 5x15 with two columns of function keys running down the middle to create space. It is very comfortable.

Recently switched to a plank style (12 x 4 matrix) keyboard and solved wrist angle issues by using a layout that is "pushed apart" so my hands rest as far apart as poosible (I do not use qwerty, but if i did there would be a 2 key gap between t and y, a 2 key gap between g and h, etc). An added benefit is that there is an extra key available to each of my thumbs. I can fit the missing keys onto these thumb keys and other layers that are already necessary with a 40% so I don't find it a hassle to use and also takes a fair amount of work of my pinkies (i.e. no having to stretch for tab, shift, backspace and enter) . tbf, might decide I hate it and change again in a couple months, who knows.

Nice vid mate

I mean, there's split stagger, split ortho and split columnar stagger.... You lightly touched on them but i wish you had directly incorporated them as part of the history of keyboard ergonomics. It's not like split is just some mod, it's body type. Just like slab and boomerang are

@va1orance

4 ай бұрын

True, I planned on making a full video comparing all of them, so that's why I didn't touch on them that much. Unfortunately, I didn't realize manuforms/dactyls were so expensive ;/.

your problem is not the ortholinear but that you still have too many keys. I currently use a "ferris sweep" as my daily driver (34 keys) and my fingers don't need to move around. Open your mind to the amazing world of layers and all your problems will disappear

@va1orance

9 ай бұрын

My problem with orthrolinear is not the key count, but the shape of the board. The ferris sweep is a split column stagger keyboard. I currently use a split column stagger keyboard.

I’m missing something about how intended/correct size… it just has more keys but the primary letter keys are in the same spots so I don’t see why comfort would be any different.

@va1orance

6 ай бұрын

The idea is that when you type, to reach the the keys on the row above or below you need to extend or curl your fingers. Orthrolinear "claims" to be beneficial in this, but ends up in a way being slightly worse (in my opinion). Your hands tend to form a ^ shape while typing, and you can see that an othrolinear board is more like ||.

The ortho layout can be traced back way further with typewriters like the Rheinmetall-Borsig Ergonomic even making a marketing statement out of using it. And older still with the Adler No. 7 or the infamous Tolkiens Hammond No. 12 or even the Automatic typewriter from 1887. It was natural for early makers of typewriters to want to arrange the keys in an orderly manner. The only reason that staggered stuck was because the most popular typewriters of the 19th century were Remingtons who's makers chose to go about the problem key arrengment in a somewhat lazy way. Qwerty effect all the way.

Keyboards like the Dygma Defy shows how nice Ortholinear is a tilt-able split keyboard with 16 keys for your thumbs to avoid using your pinky

Currently daily-ing a pseudo split ortho, a Lumberjack to be precise, and while I love it I feel like I'm leaning more towards trying an alice style. Having to twist my wrists slightly while typing all day due to natural arm positioning I feel isn't good in the long run. Currently on the lookout for a columnar fan-split ortho alice board hahaha.

@LewisCampbellTech

4 ай бұрын

Atreus62 might be worth looking at

It's very subjective, personally I got a lot less hand pain using a Planck because of thle reduced finger movements. And I switched to a 42 keys split recently, even better. But I would never have switched directly from a full size staggered keyboard, the Planck really helped.

@va1orance

6 ай бұрын

Yeah definitely, after using it for even longer, I've noticed there is a significant benefit in terms of finger movement distance. Plus it's often much cheaper than to fully switch to split right away.

nice video, both are bad, can you do it with split keyboard now please ?

listening to this vid and your continued question about the ortholinear layout, it strikes me that you should probably give the Keyboardio Atreus a try. Also a 40% keyboard but keys slightly angled and staggered column. Fantastic little keyboard.

@va1orance

2 ай бұрын

The Atreus is a column staggered keyboard. Although, it does indeed fix the most major problem with othrolinear keyboards. That being said, I main an Iris Rev. series keyboard, so, essentially the same experience. Atreus is quite nice though.

How is it bad in practice? I got one and I hate the fact that now I hve a laptop and can't use it. 40 percent with one shot layers is vastly superior. You just don't know how to configure it.

@va1orance

9 ай бұрын

If it works for you, then great! I personally was looking more towards the comfort side of the keyboard, it just simply doesn't quiet make sense in my book.

@va1orance

9 ай бұрын

Also, since you seem to be a long time user of ortholinear, is there a reason you didn't go down a split keyboard (or similar) path?

@alpacamale2909

9 ай бұрын

@@va1orance I like the size of the 40% and I don't like split keyboards. I've never had any wrist issues with my 40. I even fixed my wrist issues causing by using ctrl c an v so much by moving ctrl to where the escape key is in most keyboards.

@newdev76

6 ай бұрын

​@@va1orance I have used the bm40 for a couple of years as my main keyboard, and now I am using the ferris sweep, with the bm40 I use a split layout as well and with this I solve the position of the wrists, although now I only use it as a gamepad.

my issu with ortho it's when i need 2 letters verticaly aligned, usaly do it with 2 finguers, like de, fr, and lo, on ortho it's a pain

@va1orance

2 ай бұрын

That's also a good point. Although, the same could be said for right hand on staggered.

Or just use an otholinear SPLIT keyboard.

I’m a big id 75 user, but I also have a corne.

You missed the Kinesis Advantage keyboard. Bigger than the Plank (probably an 85% keyboard) that has a split to address your issue of wrist angling, but each split is still (largely) ortholinear. A very nice keyboard, but not small enough for the gamers.

@va1orance

7 ай бұрын

The Kinesis Advantage keyboard is a fine keyboard for sure, but it falls under the category of "Dactyl/Manuform/Sculpted". (I know, there's so many types now.) Also, at the end of the video, I do briefly show a picture, although it's true I didn't explicitly talk about it. I know this type of keyboard has gained some traction (especially a couple years ago), but unfortunately, since I don't have one I can't give any opinions on it. I'd love to try, but until then I probably won't talk about manuform keyboards.

What’s the name of the Tetris clone you’re playing?

@va1orance

4 ай бұрын

jstris.jezevec10.com/

The base in ortho is ok but split keyboards even more ergo like the crone solve the wrist thing in fact to be more confortable to write, some others design ortho similar but sligthy staggered solve aswell the wrist problem like alice type leyboards in comparison with plank style, i have few of them, plank style is just cute and small brick, everything is 1u of distance in order to type, another models aswell like preonic also have the number row, so is easier also to play game with it. They are aesthetic in their way ortho you can literally have all the keyboard covered with 1u keys, in exchange with normal staggered where they are diferent sizes to cover the staggered displacement mostly in modifiers tho. Good video!

imo ortho should almost always be paired with a split layout my reasoning is this: if you want to type 'properly' (as ortho encourages) with the right fingers on the right keys your wrists will bend. however, most people don't type 'properly', because it's uncomfortable, for that exact reason. this is why people swear by the magic keyboard - it's not ergonomic, but people use it 'ergonomically' because if a keyboard isn't built for us we will adapt to it I'm using an ortho monoblock, and even with some extra width between my hands, it kinda sucks trying to type 'properly'. This is why there is a veritable pipeline from ortho -> split -> column stagger. I think both mindsets are reasonable, because you don't get any faster by typing 'properly' (see: world records) - you only gain 'comfort' or 'feel'. why would I use the worst of both worlds? (ortho non-split?). simple: more keys and a thumb cluster :) edit: yeah, what you said, kinda

i'm not a typist, i am a gamer and occasional programmer, i need my function row, and i want a straightforward geometry so i can hit keys anywhere on the board, in any key combo, without looking. no-one makes a 6 row + numpad keeb. PLEASE someone do it, i need Fn, N-key rollover, numpad, and low latency wireless, optionally rebinding, lighting, device switching, bluetooth, hall effect analog, etc. Zack Freedman is doing the Mirage which gets some right, but its still too small and uh, still not shipping.

And just like that out of nowhere?? Ergo...nomics(?) have sprung to life in the year 2024. Where did they come from? Nobody knows. But weve definitely not been battling ergonomics in an almost endless span of generations in a futile attempt to optimize our every way of living down to the tools we use and how we use them. Cmon man we need some engineering brains on these keebs already!! The Kinesis 100 is back in '92 waiting for us! Theres gonna be none left for the rest of us! My razer orbweavers been dead for a decade and i need my dang Iris split keyboard parts already!!!

Otholinear makes total sense on a split keyboard.

To my mind the main interest with Ortholinear keyboards would be the "linear". The linear layout looks like it should be far more intuitive for developing touch-typing orientation. My brain doesn't like committing to the arbitrary staggered key layout. My fingers are always floating around with no confidence in knowing where the keys are.

@va1orance

6 ай бұрын

I do agree with this, the staggered layout feels rather right hand biased.

can I get a link to the tetris game?

@va1orance

6 ай бұрын

jstris.jezevec10.com

If you're going to make panning/scrolling shots at lower than 60fps, please make them slower, the jumping makes me nauseous

@va1orance

11 күн бұрын

realized that way too late, my bad 😅

the first model of the commodore pet (1977) has an ortholinear keyboard, people don't like it and they switched to staggered...

@va1orance

7 ай бұрын

Oh yeah, you're totally right!

There’s a big error made in this video. He claims that using a wider keyboard reduces the angle of your wrists. That makes zero sense because the home keys aren’t any further away regardless of how many extra keys are on the outsides. Of course regular keyboard have the exact same problem. Using split ortholinear solves that problem completely while retaining the benefit of no weird staggering. Plus split would look bad on a staggered setup with the staggered edges.

@va1orance

17 күн бұрын

The keys go in the middle :). For example, the XD75 keyboard is often displayed with a number pad setup in the middle. Three keys to separate letters, one key to separate edges.

I love how it's impossible to read the webpages you're scrolling because of the excessively low framerate of this GD video.

@va1orance

4 ай бұрын

Realized that shortly after I posted woops. I had everything rendered in 24 fps.

@Drunken_Hamster

4 ай бұрын

@@va1orance Oh. Oof.

i need a Ortholinear gaming keyboeard help ?

@va1orance

3 ай бұрын

Sure, but could you list out your: - Budget - Size preference (how many keys you want) - Custom or not (do you want to be able to swap switches or overall make customizations) - Any extras

@tankafer3127

2 ай бұрын

at least a 50%, but small modkey it's a pain in gaming, maybe the FoldKB from keebio

Ortholinear is superior to staggered because you can't have a calculator layer in staggered. Well, you can, but it sucks

@va1orance

9 ай бұрын

Just curious, what makes it worse on staggered for you?

@zynthshark_music

8 ай бұрын

@@va1orance for numpads or anything else like macro keyboards or something it's less ergonomic slightly if it's a staggered numpad since your fingers dont just have to go down anymore. they need to go down and to the left or right, which can be weird to locate keys if you use a numpad a lot or need to use it fast potentially.

@alpacamale2909

8 ай бұрын

@@va1orance as I said, numpads are too far to the right and hitting keys diagonally is a pain. I much rather have a grid numpad that is in front of my hand

Vertical stagger split keyboards are best for ergonomics, as you seem to admit as an afterthought at the very end of this video. But the major point I’d like to make is that vertically linear keyboards aren’t necessarily better to type on; they’re easier to LEARN on. That’s their biggest advantage. Most keyboard reviews are written by people who are already high-functioning typists in QWERTY on single-piece, conventionally arranged keyboards. That’s something that stands in the way of progress.

@va1orance

Ай бұрын

As a person who's learned four different alternative keyboard layouts (Colemak, Maks-Ex, Strand (Stronk thumb key varient), Stern (my own design)), that's an interesting theory. I've been using a split column staggered keyboard for about 4 years now. I think there is something to be said about learning. I remember when I first learned typing I struggled a lot with where the B and Y key due to their location. Orthrolinear does help with that. However, the problem is that companies advertise Orthrolinear keyboards as ergonomic (specifically the non-split varients)---which I find false. Although you have a good point, I see VERY few people buy an Orthrolinear keyboard because "they want to learn how to type".

Ortholinear keyboards only make sense as split keyboards with some tenting, as that is the natural position. Tiny orto is the worst combination I can imagine

I'm sorry, but that's not a study. It reads more like a marketing material. No detailed explanation, no sources... nothing.

@va1orance

3 ай бұрын

If you're referencing the Typematrix study, that is kinda the point... The "study" done on the keyboard was practically marketing. I wanted to try and disprove some of the claims for that reason.

Disagree.