Awesome video! It's worth noting that the journey from PIE *ǵneh₃- to Latin gnoscere to noscere is paralleled by the English developed of *ǵneh₃- to "know" with the /k/ preserved in spelling but not pronunciation.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! And great point. I’m going to post this comment to the community tab.

@dvv18

2 жыл бұрын

@Prof. Spudd зна-

@cemreomerayna463

2 жыл бұрын

English has another cognate of *ǵneh₃- which preserves the initial /k/ sound thanks to the PIE nasal infix affecting the syllabic structure of the word in Pre-Germanic development; can.

@impCaesarAvg

2 жыл бұрын

K silet in verbo anglico "know" similiter G in verbo latino gnoscere.

@Olymus

2 жыл бұрын

@Prof. Spudd Ой ё, никогда не думал про наш глагол

My old Latin teacher pronounced words like "magnus" as "mangnus", and this was 40 years ago, so it was a LOT closer to ancient Roman times than now. So he probably knew what he was talking about.

I love how relaxed you are about what pronunciation convention people use so long as it fits with rational patterns of linguistic development.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I used to be more tyrannical with my prescriptions. Now I just make recommendations, but I prefer a “live and let live” policy. Especially if people are sincere and genuine.

Luke we have seen you go through the Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Sadness, Acceptance of the existence of ecclesiastical pronunciation

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Hahaha if you’ve been following my videos on both channels for years, that is quite true 😂

@user-un7gp4bl2l

2 жыл бұрын

Lol, bargaining, thanks for the good laugh

@danialezero93

2 жыл бұрын

BEST COMMENT EVER! :D

Magnus is a personal name in the Scandinavian countries. I have always wondered why we pronounce it as ”mang-nus”, the ”ng-n”. This was informative. Thanks!

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Quite!

@Inlanning

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think we've inherited the pronunciation from classical Latin if that's what you mean. "Lugn" in Swedish, which means calm, is also pronounced "lungn".

@marna_li

2 жыл бұрын

@@InlanningYes. But these are the current set pronunciations. I have no idea how the pronunciation evolved. But it shows that people found it easier to pronounce it ”ng-n” - just like some Romans did.

@cosettapessa6417

2 жыл бұрын

@@marna_li true

@PeterBuvik

2 жыл бұрын

In Scandinavia Magnus is actually a Latinaized version the Old Norse name Magni, Which in Danish and Norwegian has become Magne

I always appreciate hearing about the various differences between Classical and Ecclesiastical Latin and how they originated. Thanks Luke!

@Nikioko

2 жыл бұрын

The question is: which ecclesiatical Latin? What he calls "ecclesiastical Latin", is Italian Latin. In other countries, the Latin pronunciation is different.

@albuso1974

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nikioko the so called ecclesiastical pronunciation is the same across the world, there can be different accents depending on the first language of the speaker but the pronunciation is the same

@Nikioko

2 жыл бұрын

@@albuso1974 No, it is not. In Italian Latin, for example excelsis is pronounced "ek-tshel-sis", in German Latin "eks-tsel-zis". "Agnus" is pronounced "an-yus" in Italian and "ang-nus" in German Latin. A c before e and i is "tsh" in Italian and "ts" in German Latin. Likewise, a g before e and i is pronounced "dj" in Italian Latin, but always "g" in German Latin, like in Classical Latin. Also, the vowels are different. And that are only the main differences, which are not just accents of the speaker, but completely different pronunciations.

@albuso1974

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nikioko very minor differences and you can spot the same or similar peculiarity even if a German speaks classical Latin so your question could be turned in "which classical Latin?".... there are no native Latin speakers.

@Nikioko

2 жыл бұрын

@@albuso1974 These diferences are not smaller than between Italian and Classical Latin. And as you ask "which Classical Latin?": the one which was spoken around 1 AD and in which c was always pronounced as k and v as w. The one which is very similar to Renaissance Latin. I am not talking about Vulgar Latin.

I've heard "hangnail" mentioned so often now that I've finally looked in up in a dictionary. Little did I know there was a word for "a bit of skin hanging loose at the side or root of a fingernail" (Merriam-Webster).

@giorgiodifrancesco4590

2 жыл бұрын

Ahahaha...this is called "arvertijèt" in my dialect...from the latin verb "revertere" ("to return"...but in the sense of "to turn").

Fun fact: romanian words that might've had the ,,gn" at the beginning are still said somewhat diferently,for exemple the n in words ,,Nil"(nile) are little different from the ones in words like ,,naștere"(birth) the latter is more weak so to say

@troelspeterroland6998

2 жыл бұрын

I presume that it is maybe a little palatalised, i.e. "y (as in 'yes')-like". But surely, the river Nile did not have gn- in latin - ?

@aroma13

2 жыл бұрын

@@troelspeterroland6998 I ment that the Nile for exemple is a word in wich the n is ,,normal"

@troelspeterroland6998

2 жыл бұрын

@@aroma13 Ah, I'm sorry, I thought you meant the opposite. I am not sure that an archaic form like gnāscere would be reflected in Romanian because it is so old that it would probably be extinct before Trajan's time. But how is the n in naștere different?

@aroma13

2 жыл бұрын

@@troelspeterroland6998 it is some what more nassal or ,,not said to completion"

@troelspeterroland6998

2 жыл бұрын

@@aroma13 That is interesting. I wonder if there are more examples of this - ?

Well in Sanskrit the "gn" sound have a different letter associated with it. That's very close to Sanskrit pronounciation of word "Gnānah"(knowledge). Were modern Indo Aryan language pronounce as "Jnāna", but the archaic Sanskrit pronounciation is more preserved in Dravidian languages where they still say "Gnāna". That's very informative Luke and thanks for the video.

@user-un7gp4bl2l

2 жыл бұрын

Well, that's not the case. The Sanskrit pronunciation has an affricate, which is the result of satemization, as the root it comes from is *ǵneh₃-, with a palatal velar. That's why it's usually transcribed "jñānam" (with /m/ by the way, as it's a neuter noun). I don't know anything about Dravidian languages, but the original pronunciation is not a plosive or a nasal, at least not since PIE times.

@pawel198812

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-un7gp4bl2l Urdu/Hindi and some other languages of Northern India say gyana instead of jnana. Maybe this is because of Persian influence?

@EchoHeo

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-un7gp4bl2l i think it's probably that j before ñ wasn't pronounced as an affricate but rather a palatal stop, in the same way as how "ccha" isn't pronounced with two affricates. this interpretation makes more sense with how modern indic languages pronounce jñ (gya, dna, gna, etc)

@eyeofthasky

2 жыл бұрын

but u forgot to mention that even in old times there were discussions how the hell the JN should be pronounced, since as written is really not very easy or comfortable to do, with a released fricative between the stop and the N ... so, that doesnt tell us anything how in a different language which i like to use as comparision was something pronounced, sadly. but, sanskrit scholars at least attest the nasally released T's luke is talkin about in venitne

@EchoHeo

2 жыл бұрын

@@eyeofthasky realistically i think it probably would have varied even when sanskrit was being used as anyone's native language

Funny enough, in Sweden we would say Magnus (which is a normal first name for us) "maŋnus" :) We also have other words where the combination gn would become "ŋn" :) languages are so much fun! :)

This is very interesting because in Sardinian Magnus became Mannu dropping the G and geminating the N

In Polish we transform a lot of ancient Latin names, e.g.: - Gnejusz Pompejusz (Gnayoosh Pohmpayoosh) - Gajusz Juliusz Cezar (Gahyoosh Yoolyoosh Tzazahr) A fun fact: when a historical person's name is very famous but also quite distant from the current time, we do it too (in fact, very rarely), e.g.: - Shakespeare: "Szekspir" (Shakspeer) - George Washington -> "Jerzy Waszyngton" (Yazhy Vahshyngtohn) We also have polonized names of just a few American states: Floryda, Kalifornia, Waszyngton, Hawaje, Luizjana, Nowy Jork, Nowy Meksyk, Karolina 2x. We also - but this seems quite common - polonize the names of Christian monarchs, popes and patriarchs.

@askarufus7939

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, the moment you realise Krzysztof Kolumb wasn't Polish :(

I now realize verbs like gnoscere are so basic to all European (at least the ones I know) that the similarity is obvious. In Romance languages the verb becomes Conocer, conaître and conoscere. In Germanic languages we have know and kennen.

@StormKidification

2 жыл бұрын

Great insight

@Xerxes2005

2 жыл бұрын

In fact, it is spelled "connaître". I think the double "n" is a remnant of "gn" in "cognoscere".

@gongboom

2 жыл бұрын

@@Xerxes2005 and the accent circonflexe reminds us of the missing s. In my mother tongue Papiamento the verb is konosé. Same root.

@Xerxes2005

2 жыл бұрын

@@gongboom You're right!

@AngiolettoBTV

2 жыл бұрын

@Gee Boom In Albanian this verb is "njoh", pronounced as "gnoh" (Italian and French pronunciation of gn). I think this verb in Albanian comes from Latin "gnoscere". Albanian was heavily influenced by Latin of Augustus era, but the phonology was adapted to the local language.

Others suspect 'GNAIUS', 'CNAIUS', or 'GNAEUS' is Latin-speakers' best at trying to say the Etruscan male name 'CNEWE'. Etruscan was truly weird by Roman standards as well as by ours.

@alepaolini

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting

@MrCarGuy

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely possible a natural evolution from Etruscan

Great video! I loved that little section of Ancient Rome below the street level when I visited a couple years ago. Fun fact for anyone who hasn't been -- there is now a cat sanctuary for strays that operates out of the ruins. At least in the summer, you can see cats lounging around in the ruins where Caesar was assassinated!

Fascinating lectio Luke In Lyceum, we used to use the mediaeval prononciation, so it would have been " ñeus " normally, but our teacher told us that in beginning of the words, GN didn't have to be pronounced " ñ ", rather G should be pronounced like a G but keeping the larynx closed witht he tongue, sort of a muted G, and the N sound should follow with continuity (not interrupting the muted G sound), so in fact, I think this is very close, if not the same, to the prononciation that you mention here as classical. In fact, when doing history lessons, the italian prononciation "Gneo" started to sound very funny to my ears after having learned the other prononciation from my Latin teacher

Thank you like always for such awesome content!

This is a question I’ve always wondered about, love how someone took the time to make a whole video about it!

Thank you very much for your videos!🙏

Love how well researched your rants are. Thanks for this.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks.

Your voice is so soothing ♥️

I think this is my favorite one of your videos. Awesome!

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! More like this in the coming weeks

Another very helpful video!

Loved this!

Well, I enjoyed this immensely. Many thanks.

Your content is a pleasure to watch. Loving the level of dedication and enthusiasm you put into every video.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Very kind! I have my director to thanks most of all.

Your videos are some of the most informative content on KZread. Thank you for your channel. 😊

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

That’s terribly kind of you. Thanks!

;0 you said my name so beautifully, I'm almost tempted to bump Latin up my priority list with languages to learn now

please always leave in some outtakes, I am wheezing over here, the editing in that very last moment oh my god. and of course, thank you for another great video, your channel(s) have inspired me to dive back into latin, having studied it in high school a lifetime ago, and although I did enjoy it at the time and had a great teacher, we were never taught classical pronunciation and we could even get away with... (deep breath)... ignoring phonemic vowel length. never again though :)

Grazie Luca.....come sempre stimolante. Un abbraccio da Helsinki

Wow, very nicely explained. I enjoyed visiting that ruin a few years ago. Awesome! :-)

It's worth noting too that this happened to all plosives before nasals, as in "suepnos" > "suemnos" (compare Greek "húpnos", "sleep") or "atnos" > "annos" (compare Gothic "aþns", "year"). The spelling difference is due to the fact that they didn't have a separate letter to reliably represent [ŋ].

@guillermorivas7819

2 жыл бұрын

I always found it interesting that Archaic Latin had those diphhongs like Spanish does: suepnos (somnus) = sueño duenos (bonus) = bueno/buen

@user-un7gp4bl2l

2 жыл бұрын

@@guillermorivas7819 Yes, it's a neat little coincidence. What I haven't been able to find a convincing answer for is why some of those /e/ become /o/ and others stay, as in "bonus" and "bene", or "bellus", which is the diminutive of "bonus" (another neat thing is how Spanish developed a new diminutive "bonito" with the same meaning). If you happen to know anything about that please let me know. Another nice thing which is completely irrelevant is how the loss of /w/ in words like "somnus" is almost the same as the loss of /w/ in English words like "so" or "sword".

@guillermorivas7819

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-un7gp4bl2l , The "ita/ito" diminutive apparently already existed in Latin. Not sure whether it was classical, vulgar or late latin though. With that being said, Latin does have "bonitās/bonitātis" which derived from bonus.

@alepaolini

2 жыл бұрын

@@guillermorivas7819 I'm pretty sure bonitās has not the same development of the Spanish diminutive "-ito"

@user-un7gp4bl2l

2 жыл бұрын

@@guillermorivas7819 What I meant is that "bonito" was derived in Spanish, not the particular morphemes. I meant to ask whether you happen to know anything about the vowel change in Old Latin, not about "bonito".

Congratulations! Of the very few videos that are worth watching...! Very few they are talking about matters like that!

Interesting. In Swedish the name is probounced Mang-nus, with the nasal bit like in king.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Fantastic, I didn’t know that

@HenrikBergpianorganist

2 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke GN is in general pronounced ng-n in Swedish, for example in ugn, lugn, välsigna, ragnarök, digna etc. Not word-initially: gnosticism is pronounced g-n. Guessing the same happens in Norwegian...?

Thanks Luke!

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching and commenting!

Thank you for this great explanation and for the views of Largo Argentina. More videos from ancient settings please! Also very interesting to note how the sounds K and hard G are so often used interchangeably in different accents, especially after « n » in certain British and German accents. Thank you also for the origins of the word that explains the German word « Gnade » !

Always great to see you in Rome. Reminds me of when I was in the very spot you are standing in this video. I should go back...

I was wondering about this just the other day and then this video turns up. You seem to be a mind-reader on top of everything else. :-)

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Great! I’m glad. GN was suggested after the Gaius video

The little Latin I learned was in the studies ethimology and toponomy. I tended to pronounce the V as a U only in de middle of the word, and the C as in portuguese and before E or I doesn't come easy as a K, as for the GN I may pronounde the G too strong. Thanks to you I'm deviating from the mix of eclesiastic/portuguese pronountiation and trying to read Latin as Classical Latin would be spoken, one sound at a time.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Great!

Amazing!

Loved seeing the outtakes! You make it look all so seamless as if you did it in one take in your final edits, so it was nice to see a reminder of the process that goes on behind the scenes, all the stopping and starting (which would have driven me mad, by the way - so props to you for having kept going!) The outtakes also reminded me why I hated Rome when I lived there. Just like London, it's too damn noisy for my liking!

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

My favorite topic - phonetic geekery! 😎 Thank you so much!

I love your videos luke 😍😍😍😍😍😍

Optime explicavisti, gratias tibi!

Great video.

I haven't been there in so long 😭😭😭 miss going out with my friends as we used to before covid. Great video by the way informative as usual maestro.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Grātiās tibi!

I am trying to learn Latin to help my 11 year old grandson with his work. I find your videos helpful, as well as interesting, so thank you.

Great video, Luke. We miss you at Dynamic.

neat.

Amazing setting for a video about Latin!

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

6:56 I'm Italian and you made me realize that I actually say /ŋn/

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Eccellente!

Great video as always! I admire your ability to focus completely on the camera, I would have been distracted by the people all around! As a French speaker, I'm wondering if our nasal sounds are a direct development from Classical Latin's nasal sounds, or if they're unrelated? The "um" endings for example do sound similar to our words like "pont" or "son", I also remember you mentionning similar nasalisation in Barbarians, where a word like "consenguitur" (I believe what that word was" had a nasal sound on the "con"

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! French and Portuguese nasal vowels are innovative in each language and are not inherited from Latin.

_Grātiās_. As a Portuguese speaker I struggle with the English 'gn' sound, and I tend to not only release coda occlusives, but even add an epenthetic /i/ and palatalise the consonant. Years of linguistic training have made me quite confortable with the unreleased consonant, though, so I'm glad it's a solid option. I like to pronounce every single initial 'gn' though: even in _gnāscor._

That makes total sense. "Cognoscere" in Portuguese (Brazil) is "conhecer", and the NH sounds as you're describing the GN.

Interesting. In Faroese, (-)gn- is /gn/ as you'd expect but in a few dialects -gn- is actually pronounced [ŋn], so a parallel development. :)

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Outstanding! Thanks

I love this channel! (And I'm a professional classicist--I can't even imagine being this good while being a helicopter pilot at the same time!)

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Very kind, sir! I certainly am no professional, but I do enjoy these topics

Very interesting topic! When I began learning Latin at secondary school, we were just taught to pronounce everything as it was written, which was okay in many cases as my native tongue (Flemish Dutch) naturally has many similar sounds, but a lot of the more subtle pronunciations like this one would go over our heads. I feel like pronunciation is just as important as grammar and vocab in learning/studying a language. Great video! I can't imagine the effort it must've took to talk in between all the noise.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Well said! Thanks

@birthe9439

2 жыл бұрын

As someone who is currently doing her teacher's degree for Latin (and Greek) in Flanders, I can tell you that pronunciation has become more important and the classical pronunciation is now explicitly in the curriculum. Teachers are also expected to read Latin out loud as much as possible, to demonstrate the correct pronunciation and stress accent. Like you, the pronunciation I learned in secondary school was certainly not bad, but I only learned about "gn" in my Latin linguistics classes in uni. And even in uni, many of the finer details were never mentioned and I can only assume even my professors don't know them, like the unreleased plosives. Which is why I appreciate it all the more that I can improve and practise my pronunciation online, so I will be able to teach it correctly to my students.

@mauritsponnette

2 жыл бұрын

@@birthe9439 That's fantastic! Good luck teaching! 😃

great video and cool jacket

Interesting to see Ubisoft's Theatre of Pompey setpiece from AC:Origins making its way into educational videos. It was so well done that it deserves it too.

Have you already done or will you do a handbook + audiobook on Latin pronunciation? I think all the knowledge you've accumulated over the years perfecting your Latin pronunciation deserves to be compiled into a handy little tome we can all refer to from time to time in our personal libraries amongst our Loebs!

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Very kind! I intend to write such a book. For now I have a series for Patreon supporters at the MAECENATIANI tier.

The pronunciation and the explanation makes a lot of sense in Spanish as well, a lot of those words that you talked about changed into two n, nn instead of the gn of Latin and Italian, later when the print machine was invented it changed in Spanish to ñ that means one n on top of the other n to save space. And that word cognoscere in Portuguese makes the sound of ñ in the place of the gn in conheçer, in portugues is done with nh is nice

cannt help giving each video an thumbs-up hahah, a wonderful content-creator

@polyMATHY_Luke

11 ай бұрын

Thanks very much!

Thank you for leaving the outtakes. I miss Rome painfully. Very homesick. Hearing those sounds I can feel the sun, the wind and the life. I will return, but meanwhile this is like having teleported for a bit. Thank you.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

I’m glad you liked them!

LOVE the traffic interruptions - looks so frustrating 😂

I really do admire you speaking so many languages and especially I have a big love for your Latin. I do not understand it, because I can barely speak French of all the roman languages and that's all. I am still loving to hear it. It sounds so...right! 🙂 Kaiser=Caesar...I love it!

This video was very fun to watch! Thank you so much! A bit hard to understand but i also understand that it might be hard to explain

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, see if the original video on ScorpioMartianus is more clear

Loved the bloopers! As a language nerd, I have to pronounce it /ŋn/ 😅.

Outtakes were priceless 😂 Veni ad Mediolanum! Silentius’st (paululo)

I think the Theatre of Pompey where JC was assassinated is a bit further away from Largo di Torre Argentina, between Via di Grotta Pinta and Via dei Chiavari, where its outline is still preserved in the street lines 😊

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Naturally; this is as close as one can get at the excavated area

The Spanish language still retains the pronunciation of "gn" like that of Classical Latin. The word magno exists in Spanish but it is hardly used but it can be used -- especially in historical contexts. There are other words in Spanish like "pugno, pugnante, pugnaz" but these are learned words derived/pronounced exactly like in Classical Latin. The word "magnitud" is used commonly amongst others. In Sardinian it has evolved into "nn" (mannu) rather than magnus.

@hugobourgon198

2 жыл бұрын

French plays with both too, but unlike Spanish, the spelling doesn't change according to the pronunciation. We have "diag-nos-tic" and "mag-net", but "o-ignon" and "mon-ta-gne". We also have some words that have both pronunciations like "mag-né-tique /ma-gné-tique" and "in-cog-ni-to / in-co-gni-to (actually, these ones aren't supposed to have the "ñ" sound, but since people tend to pronounce them like that nowadays they are accepted). Back in the days, the written difference was "gn" = gn sound and "ign" = ñ sound, but people began to mix trigrams with diphtongues (po-ignet v.s. poi-gnet).

@michelefrau6072

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, you are right, it seems that generally in Sardinia gn is nn, so as you said we have magnum : mannu pugnare : punnare signum : sinnu etc

@guillermorivas7819

2 жыл бұрын

@@michelefrau6072 , , Indeed. Sardinian retains the closest pronunciation to classical latin. Spanish does it best to retain some words with the classical pronunciation. The following are common words that retain the "gn" pronunciation: Repugnante Signo Resignar Resignacion Significar Significante Significado Magnitud Diagnosticar Diagnosis Etc.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Spanish words with gn like you mention are taken directly from literary Latin during or after the Renaissance. They don’t represent a natural evolution, also true of their English equivalents. But they are interesting.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. This is an important reason why gn in antiquity could not have been as modern Italian

Good Video 👏👏👏 Dear Polymathy it would be very interesting in the future to see videos in which you teach some words in Latin or Ancient Greek to approach these beautiful languages, maybe those words we use everyday and we dont know the origin 😍

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

I have an entire channel dedicated to teaching Latin and Ancient Greek kzread.info/head/PLU1WuLg45Siw2bcwgjIj8FgQoJuGTM70j kzread.info/head/PLU1WuLg45Six4gYLaBrTAIvfjXWKJ1EkN

Like how the outtakes of videos shot in Rome is Rome itself getting in the way.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

The irony is palpable

This was very interesting, not too different from what I assumed the pronunciation would be. The most natural pronunciation for me would be /gn/ word initially and /ŋn/ word medially and finally, same pattern as my dialect of Norwegian.

Che bello che sei Luke !

Critias77 makes a very interesting point and I never thought about that K in "know" as a cognate of GN. The praenomen Gnaeus is also found in epigraphy as both Gaius and Caius. I haven't pondered this since I was an altar boy in my teens and got into trouble with the priest for pronouncing my Missal Latin as Cicero (KEEKeroh) would have. I hated the CH sound of C and other ecclesiastical habits. However the N in Gnaeus is silent and dropped in the more frequent GAIUS where the G is hard velar and also in CAIUS. It makes me wonder about the pronunciation of GN in COGNITO ergo sum. Of course my Latin studies were over 70 years ago so I look forward to comments.

That makes a lot of sense, in Spanish we still have some of those Gs and we know they’re not pronounced like in the word "Gnomo", you just pronounce the n like there was no g in the word.

In Sardinian : magnus > mannu, cognatus > conna(t)u etc

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Precisely.

@xolang

2 жыл бұрын

in Romanian it became cumnat

Why is the ecclesiastical pronunciation taught in schools instead of the classical one? It would be much more fun and useful

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Ecclesiastical Pronunciation is only taught in Italian schools. The Classical pronunciation is used universally outside of Italy except in Catholic environments

@bacicinvatteneaca

2 жыл бұрын

Traditionalism. Idiotic traditionalism. Education has been a political battlefield (always and everywhere, but in particular in 50s to 80s Italy) and the classical side of things has always been the least likely to change.

@redivivo

2 жыл бұрын

I am an Italian student and I study latin at school, I believe that classical pronunciation is not taught because students, quite frankly, often don't like the subject. Not everyone appreciates latin and teaching a completely new pronunciation would only make it difficult for those who are already struggling to study and learn the language. Trust me, I can tell, I have many classmates who hate latin.

@bacicinvatteneaca

2 жыл бұрын

@@redivivo it wouldn't be a "change" if it was done from the start of the curriculum

@paolob.5667

2 жыл бұрын

@@redivivo yeah, Latin in Italy is very undervalued as a subject

Languages have a tendency to simplify pronoucniations. Gnaivos is the old spelling. I would assume that the -os slowly turned to -us, making the -vus soudn rather the same so it lost the v eventually. ai to ae... and lastly the dropping of the g because it probably felt sorta botehrsome to the new phonology of the changing latin. thus: Gnaivos -> Gnaivus -> Gnaius and eventually -> Naeus. The G probably was lost last as the name still had it. We see similar things in assimilations. ad + ferre -> afferre. Latin liked its fluent pronounciations, so i would assume that is also a driving factor here, if something seems bothering the (new) pronounciation over time. But that is just how i would deduct it.. No idea if it actually happened like that.

@viperking6573

2 жыл бұрын

I actually don't agree by a long margin. There are languages whose pronunciations became very odd and unfamiliar from the prospective of other languages. For example, take polish zamknac which is pronounced / zamk'nonch / this same words had vowels in between that just disappeared, I wouldn't say that this pronunciation is easier than the one with vowels in between. I don't think the theory that languages have a sort of tendency to become easier. Another example would be the latin way of making adverbs with was -e, that became -mente in the majority of romance languages, making something easy like ' lente '(lat. and sardinian actually) now ' lentamente '(italian and french is very similar), we would all agree that lente was the quickef and easier to remember option

@wasweiich9991

2 жыл бұрын

@@viperking6573 It is. Just because you are used to clear vowels, doesn't mean everyone is. The answer is Phonology. Every language and all speakers have the set of phonological rules they are accustomed to pronounce. These rules shift over time without people noticing doing it. That pronounciation can be easier for people thatare used to these things. That is why in japanese for example you also get a final vowel on loanwords that end wit ha consonant, because teh Syllable structure is somethign along CV (dunno if it actually is but it will suffice), meaning a syllable will end with a vowel. There are many reasons for shifts. As with different endings: Maybe it was just something to make yourself understood easier? But usually people don't like beating around the bush. That is why they want flow of information quick and efficiently and in a way that the othe knows exactly what he means. There is also the matter of dialects. Latin too will have had local dialects where certain words were more preferred than in other areas. While the roman empire was a very advanced plkace, it too lacked the constant flow of linguistic information necessary to actually melt together the whole place into one dialect. That is also why we had vulgar latin. And that kind of latin would usually in the end influence the liturgical language of that area.

@viperking6573

2 жыл бұрын

@@wasweiich9991 Ok now I agree. I thought you meant that every language had one type of phonological rules. This thing is called in a certain way in linguistics I believe. Anyway now I understand your answer! My bad

It's also interesting that many latin words that contain gn have a intervocalic ng or a k initially in germanic, e.g. ign-is - ing-waz gno-sc-e-re - cu-n-a-n magn-us - manag-az

It has always seemed a weird cluster to me. Gnosco for example, never knew the correct way to start a word with it. In Greek, while γγ is read like g, many compound words that have the γγ letters, like έγγραφο (script) or εγγραφή (subscription) are read like that "hangnail" sound.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Yup, that’s how Greek likes to do it.

I'm glad that my initial intuition (the unreleased consonant) seems consistent. I'm a spanish speaker and releasing the g sounds more like "Macnus" to me, which sounds very... anglo-speaking? With the exception of the "r" I feel our consonants (specially in spanish) are much softer.

Excellent analysis of the Latin 'gn' sound.

Very informative, as always! Does it affect meter? I would guess that if it's pronounced as one letter, you can put a short syllable before it. But if it's two distinct consonants, the previous syllable becomes long by position.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

It does seem to affect meter

Amazing Luke! Is the beginning "co" in n the Spanish word "conocimiento" a transliteración of the "guh" of gnoscere? Thank you so much for this video!!!

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Hi! No, it comes from cognōscere

Pellicula optima! Gratias tibi :)

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Grātiās et tibi, cāre Dāvīd!

So I'm thinking like Swedish?

@katam6471

2 жыл бұрын

Swede here. The unreleased g-sound is not Swedish, but the other one sounds just like Swedish, I think.

I just realised that the name Magnus in swedish is actually pronounced /maŋnus/

Great video, are you gonna make a video about the 4th episode of Barbarians anytime soon?

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

When the next season comes around I will.

for sure Pompey would appreciate this "enough talking Julius Cesar, lets talk some Pompey Magnus"

Fantastic video. Is beautiful to see Latin language coming back to life.

Thanks for your video. With ecclesiastical pronuntiaon would be a /ng/ sound (like ñ in Spanish) also in the beginning of word? like in Gnaeus?

that is a sick jacket mate

Using an older orthography for a word or name made me think of two examples in English. We use "oz." as an abbreviation for ounce, and "lb." for the abbreviation for pound (weight).

@polyMATHY_Luke

Жыл бұрын

See my video about this in two days! Great point

Even after the explanation, it's still difficult for me to pronounce "Magnus" in a classical pronunciation without dropping to my native Spanish "Ñ", so I end up saying "Mañus".

The explanation of Gn was nice, but the last minute of video even better. I mean, romans don't even speak anymore with Gn or Cn, just with car horns

I have no likelihood of ever studying Latin, but I do love your videos. Just out of curiosity are you Aviation Branch by any chance? I am a retired maverick (Cpt also) here. Became a full time civilian 14 years ago and really miss the culture and fellowship of the Army. Twenty-six years here both enlisted time and commissioned time entirely in MI. 98 G as an EM. Thanks again for the great and interesting content, Pete.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Outstanding. I used to fly 60s in the Guard.

@petergreening4810

2 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke The patches gave you away. What state? I retired from the WA Guard.

You are so smart and handsome, I could listen to you for for hours geeking about "dead languages". I'll definitely need to take notes to understand this better. I do stick with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, but it's funny because in some cases when sung I shift from one to other depending on which sound I found more melodic in the specific case.

Thank you! in my language the combination ng+ny (unfortunately Idk how to type the phonetic letters) is very very common. ng+n much less frequent though. in fact I can't think of any example right off the top of my head. ps: in my language, the spelling ng always represents the ng sound and not ng+g as is often the case in English. so that "singer" would be spelled the same, yet "finger" would be spelled as "fingger".

I thought the place where Cesar was assasinated is actually in a modern day restaurant in italy. At least thats what one documentary I watched said.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

It is, but this is as close as you can get at the excavations