The fact we're even having to have this conversation and engage intellectual resources is completely insane.

@blakesleyk.7166

2 жыл бұрын

There can be no conversation when it takes place on a minefield they - moment by moment - boobytrap. When you own the words you own the conversation. Fascist linguists.

@gabrielstradivarius1977

2 жыл бұрын

Completely agree.. it's terrifying

@SeeLasSee

2 жыл бұрын

It’s bizarre. Especially since you don’t use gendered pronouns face to face with a person.

@steveb9713

2 жыл бұрын

This is the law in Canada for 5 years now

@Remi-bt7tp

2 жыл бұрын

There’s a interesting discussion about 2 years ago on Joe Rogan’s pod of how and when all this woke mentality around trans culture and social justice warrior mentality became mainstream and started to take over the culture wars in America. Apparently his guest who was an expert on it and had been studying it for years said it was all born out of an atheist conference in 2012, and that there was an incident called “elevator gate” . It’s a fascinating listen to how all this craziness sort of took off .

".. and when we have American Governor's putting rapists and murderers of women, in women's shelters and women's prisons, the time for just being polite is long past." - Helen Joyce Amen, sister.

As the ex wife of a Tr Id'd man, who was my husband for 16 years, I say that we must, to keep our own sanity, refer to my ex as the father of our 2 sons. Because he has called himself their mother, for his convenience, and he still does. I hit the wall with it when I found out he is now the Chief Operating Officer of his company, the one he pretended to be the "low level sales" rep in, to get out of paying child support. I was a public school Kindergarten teacher. No one seems to understand the ramifications, the deep ones, for the very warp and weft of society. No thanks, in advance, to the violent rhetoric of the Genderist extremists, who think I deserve to die for telling my truth. This aint even the half of it.

@sspashleymae24

2 жыл бұрын

Trans widow here too. My ex husband also demands people call him a mother. My girls are very young and I will not call him a mother that is not true and it's not kind. It's in fact very unkind to the kids and to us the actual mother's.

@lmlmlmlm7627

2 жыл бұрын

Oh wow. Sounds so sadly disordered. I’m curious how his job as a chief operating officer played a part? Did he get in under affirmative action?

@happilyretired2868

2 жыл бұрын

@@lmlmlmlm7627 In a way, yes. This tech firm claims 'diversity' by having a 'female' executive, when all the rest of the top tier are white males, which he was, of course while he completed 3 Ivy grad degrees, then 'transitioned' at age 36. He now claims he is entitled to call himself mother of our 2 sons.

@catherinerobilliard7662

2 жыл бұрын

Men pretending to be women, and now mothers!, have held the courage and sympathy vote too long - it belongs to their wives, not the narcissistic, greedy, grasping, controlling men who want their cake and eat it - and so far have got it!

@queengoblin

2 жыл бұрын

@@sspashleymae24 this is not only incorrect but deeply insulting. mothers play a very specific biological role in their children's lives that fathers simply do not and cannot play. not only do mothers give birth to their children, they bond with the child in a way fathers do not, and breastfeed children too as a form of bonding as well as life support. fathers do not and cannot do this. a baby can survive with any man playing the role of father. a baby does horribly psychologically without its biological mother.

Helen Joyce is brilliant

Ben Shaperio has made it clear that he would use somebody's pronouns in private conversation for the sake of being polite, but will not do so in public discussion where reality and truth are being determined.

@maxcavalera917

2 жыл бұрын

Came to say the same thing. Funny how Coleman has basically the same position as Ben.

@fauxpression2021

2 жыл бұрын

@@maxcavalera917 came to say this too…

@edub8803

2 жыл бұрын

As did I... Was he slightly misquoting Ben?

@ernieleducjr.9023

2 жыл бұрын

@@edub8803 I doubt it was intentional. You would have had to have seen the right interview to have caught it.

@fauxpression2021

2 жыл бұрын

@@edub8803 more mis representing it. Coleman is to intelligent to misquote but he knows how to reframe a statement to make it sound like you are saying something else. He’s trying to distance himself, I think because people genuinely think Ben (an orthodox J E W) is a Nazi!

I agree with Helen Joyce 100 percent.

Still no. I will not let others dictate how I speak, nor how I view reality.

Yea.. I came so far in life and met so many people that I developed my own rule, if someone asks me for special pronouns I disengage. I have no interest in engaging with those people, because we are miles apart on such a fundamental level and there is plenty fish in the see.

@BM-fz9yc

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed

@galenjoyce8452

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed.

The internet produces ideas that are divorced from reality. That's the underlying problem. The virtual world is a predicate of the real one, and always will be.

@MrVenomsaurus

2 жыл бұрын

just like covid conspiracies

@Individual_Lives_Matter

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrVenomsaurus ?? Where did that come from?

@11East

2 жыл бұрын

When you feel like the worlds gone mad stay of the internet for a few days and everything seems relatively normal again.

How often do you use people's pronouns in their presence? I usualy use 'you' and 'your'.

@sophieoshaughnessy9469

2 жыл бұрын

That’s so true. And mostly I just use their name. It only gets tricky when talking about them in 3rd person and that is usually not in their presence. So far (thank god) no one is trying to messing with second person pronouns, to my knowledge.

@arthurhagen3826

2 жыл бұрын

@@sophieoshaughnessy9469 same here, everybody has a name. In my own language it's not a discussion yet. Or maybe I missed something. Everybody I know (including all the gay and trans) conforms to one of two sexes. He or she.

@thatgirlreacts5465

2 жыл бұрын

@@sophieoshaughnessy9469 well, my friend’s kid says he’s non-binary so if I’m going to talk to her about him I gotta use they/them or she prob will be pissed. Since I don’t like using those pronouns I opt to using his name instead. Except now he’s got a new name so I either use the new name or get out of their lives, really. And it’s funny because it’s just a fucking name, it shouldn’t be difficult for me. Sadly, it is, because it feels like I’m being forced into a philosophy I don’t possess. But if I don’t do it then it’s like I’m invalidating his identity. Ugh, this is all so tricky. Animals are so lucky, they don’t have to worry about this shit. All my cat does is sleep all day on the heat pad I bought her. Lucky bitch! Lol

@sophieoshaughnessy9469

2 жыл бұрын

@@thatgirlreacts5465 my heart goes out to you. I know it’s hard. Teens and young adults have always tried to exert power through new ways of thinking, though I’ve never seen them as hell bent on twisting their elders into pretzels in service of their budding identities. One day they will see that the more one organizes ones life around one’s personal preferences, the more disappointing and less vital their lives will be. Even Prince eventually dropped the symbol.

Coleman, there’s a good chance you don’t know this, but Ben Shapiro took a person who he misgendered at a speech out for coffee to apologize. In private settings he uses people’s pronouns, but when discussing policy and speaking in public arenas the niceties & concessions should be put away.

@sophieoshaughnessy9469

2 жыл бұрын

I suspect he is probably nicer than the polarizing petulant speed talker he portrays online. He could use a dose of the Coleman Chill:)

Anyone can ask anything of me, however I’m not legally required to acquiesce, I’m also not legally bound to make sure my every action doesn’t offend or hurt the feelings of others. I’m certainly not without empathy, but when these folks started infringing on people’s rights, or ruining careers, is when I decided even more so that I’m on the side of the sticks and stones philosophy, these children need to toughen up and stop acting fascistic.

Helen Joyce's book 'Trans' is an amazing eyeopener and an in-depth balanced, well-communicated exposure of the gender ideology. issue.

I believe pressuring people to state their preferred pronouns is akin to a religious test. It’s like if someone walked up to another person and asks “have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and savior?” Any answer pigeon holes that individual into an us/them bind .

Here's my two cents. I welcome people's constructive feedback. I will use the name that the trans person wants to be called. When interacting with the person, there should be no pronoun issue, since I'll be using "you/yours" pronouns. However, while I have no desire to be rude to the person, I also want to be faithful to my own conscience, which informs me that to use inappropriate pronouns (whether they be real - but opposite from biological reality - or of recent vintage - ze/zir) would in essence an assent to an ideology that I think is wrongheaded, dangerous, and frankly, absurd. Therefore, I will NOT use those pronouns, but will refer to the person's name when speaking of him/her in the third person. I hope that this will be acceptable at work. I don't relish losing my job, but neither to I think it's right to be bullied (as I see it) into using language with which I have fundamental disagreement. Where I might also be willing to compromise is the use of the pronouns "them/they/their". Ridiculous grammatically, but at least they are gender neutral, and won't cause me to feel like I'm saying something with which I don't agree.

Bravo to Helen Joyce! I support her 100% on this matter. Personally, if I think someone is genuine I will honour their pronoun preference. E.g. I would call Caitlyn Jenner or Blaire White "she/her". And I would call Elliot Page "he/him", because I think he has genuine gender dysphoria. On the other hand, I'm not going to call Eddie Izzard "she", because he spent years publicising his transvestism. He's only jumped on the Trans bandwagon in order to push an ideological agenda. And I'm simply not having "they/them". Non-binary is just attention-seeking nonsense!

@thatgirlreacts5465

2 жыл бұрын

But if we are to believe that it’s possible for one to have gender dysphoria to the point that it helps them if we use ‘he’ or ‘she’ as they request then why should it be any different when someone requests ‘they’? Because if one can have gender dysphoria because they don’t feel like a female or like a male then why wouldn’t it be possible for an individual to actually not feel like either female nor male. So they pick ‘they’.

@llengsuch3426

2 жыл бұрын

@@thatgirlreacts5465 Because biological sex is binary. And so-called neutral "gender identity" is merely part of a political project (and a fashion trend) that I do not support.

@thatgirlreacts5465

2 жыл бұрын

@@llengsuch3426 I do not think it’s as simple as that. I do agree that sometimes this can be attention seeking, other times it’s a power play and also, as you said, a trend (possibly anyway). But the fact remains that it doesn’t make logical sense to believe gender dysphoria to be real and yet make strict guidelines about it when you don’t even suffer from it. Idk if gender dysphoria is a thing or not but it seems like it is. I mean, why else would so be people transform their bodies so drastically to look like the opposing gender, right? So, the argument is still the same. If you believe that it is totally possible that say a female may feel like a male because they have gender dysphoria then why is it impossible to believe that say a female simply doesn’t feel comfortable with either gender? Why is it ok to feel like the opposing gender but not to feel like neither? Who are we to say how they feel and what gender dysphoria is to people we don’t even know?

@llengsuch3426

2 жыл бұрын

@@thatgirlreacts5465 Thank you for your comment. I did reply yesterday, but it appears to have fallen foul of KZread's censoring algorithm. This was the gist: Firstly, I reject the Critical Social Justice position of "lived experience" that says I am forbidden from speaking on a condition that I do not directly experience personally. This is an identity politics framework that I do not accept. Secondly, my position on Trans issues is entirely logical: "gender" means "sexual identity" and in 99% of people is synonymous with their biological sex. Biological sex is binary (male and female) and immutable. Gender Dysphoria is a psychological condition affecting a person's identity - they feel more comfortable identifying as the opposite sex. So-called "neutral" identity, whilst currently being a social media driven fashion trend, is generally fake: used by some entertainers as a marketing ploy, or claimed by some political activists. However, I will concede that there could be a fraction of a percent of genuine dysphorics who feel uncomfortable identifying as either male or female. Therefore, out of compassion for such an individual, I might avoid referring to them with any pronoun, and just use their name.

She....seemed very reasonable? With the outcry on Twitter, I nearly expected her to sprout devil horns.

Ben Shapiro actually calls people by their preferred pronoun in private, but makes it a point not to in his public discourse because it concedes to the truth of an ideology with which he disagrees.

Drives me nuts that Coleman hasn’t caught on more

On arrest, I'll find myself gender fluid. My pronouns are "My Lord" when talking to me, and "Our Lord" the rest of the time.

If someone insists on me using their selected pronouns, I will just stop dealing with that person, if possible, and ignore them whenever I can. If I have no choice and have to interact with that person, I will likely be rude. As far as I'm concerned, that whole pronoun cult can go _______ themselves. I'm done being polite.

The difference between Father and pronouns is that Father is a title indicating a role. It refers to something definable. The post modern left is insisting that men and women have no defined roles or differences and in effect, the terms have no definition.

The distinction to me is that the words he and she have always by default referred to someone's sex. The left are the ones who insist it is a "gender" pronoun. But that is simply not accurate. That is not how we have used the word historically, ever. Even if a woman was a tomboy, extremely masculine, dresses in baggy clothes, plays football with the boys and all the rest, we would maybe call her "manly", but we wouldn't call her a man. And we wouldn't start calling *her* and a *he* either. It's simply not a natural progression. Because the pronouns are not about masculine and feminine traits, it's about sex. That's why I will reject using someone's pronouns. Not to mention I think it is damaging to the trans individuals to never encounter any strife or pushback in their social life. Everyone bending backwards for them is only going to make them feel more righteous. If they feel uncomfortable with me using the "wrong" pronouns, and that uncomfortability somehow gives them the moral highground to demand I use them, can I then not take the moral highground and say making me use words I don't want to use, twisting their meaning and language itself is totalitarian, and that makes ME uncomfortable, so instead I get to demand should respect MY word choice. The only terms on which I can agree to it is if it's treated like a game, where we're both pretending. Much like I might call an obvious crossdressing man a woman, because there's no confusion that we're both aware he isn't actually a woman, and he's merely pretending. That's not the claim trans people make when they demand you use a certain pronoun, as Helen clearly laid out.

Fantastic conversation.

There are already women in prison here in California. Being raped by men who’ve been allowed in because they’ve instance that they are women. It’s a disaster

@Bacopa68

Жыл бұрын

Yep, rapists are being transferred into rapist utopia. That was part of the plan. The trans movement is led by straight men who hate women.

Latinx is nuts

I don't agree that the reverend and father analogy make sense it this situation because those are their job titles, like Dr.

Watch TT Exulansic on this- she is a linguist and breaks down what third party pronouns are & how they function in our language. I do not believe in the gender religion. I do not recognise gender identity. I use third person pronouns to denote sex, I always have and so have all speakers of my language. I have the right to express myself through my own language. It is cruel & controlling to try to force language on me that expresses a belief system I do not hold & actively stand against

@thatgirlreacts5465

2 жыл бұрын

Ok now help me out here. I have a friend whose kid says he is non-binary. He says he prefers they/them and is going by a new name too. This started a couple of years ago and he is 13 now. How on earth can I stay true to my beliefs while still respecting this kids choices and personal journey? Cuz if I adopt the pronouns and new name I respect him but forsake what I believe in. And if I don’t adopt the new name and pronouns i stay true to what I believe in but come across as being dismissive of what he believes is his identity. What would you do?

@jayjaydubful

2 жыл бұрын

@@thatgirlreacts5465 explain to him why you only use sexed pronouns? It would be cool to have a proper, respectful discussion about it

@thatgirlreacts5465

2 жыл бұрын

@@jayjaydubful there is absolutely NO WAY I can do that. I would LOVE to do that, are you kidding? That sounds so cool, we could learn so much from each other and about each other. But no, that will never happen. Wanna know why? Because his parents, especially his mother I think, are super protective of him and would take such conversation as confrontational, kind of like im forcing my views on him and ultimately just see me as being very dismissive of what they call his gender identity. And from what I can tell, the kid would feel the same way too. Take this example for instance: two months ago when I was visiting them was when I was told by his mom that he’s now going by a different name. So I turn to him and ask when he changed his name. He just says he likes it. Then I ask how he came up with it (cuz it’s very different than his name), and he says the same thing, that he just likes it. Things feel awkward. A week or so later I get an email from the mom telling me I’m being confrontational, antagonistic and that I’m making him and the parents uncomfortable because I’m acting like he has to justify his gender. 🤷‍♀️ Obviously there were more interactions than that one I just told you but not that many. I really never got into it with him. I have no idea why they think that because it’s not like I ever talked about my own views with them and while I did say he or him instead of they and them that only happened a few times and accidentally because I was trying hard to use his name instead of any pronoun. And I never interrogated him, I only ever asked those two questions about his name that he wouldn’t even answer. I think he is very intelligent but incredibly sensitive. His emotional intelligence is that of a 5 year old, honestly. And he’s very sheltered by his parents in my opinion. But anyways, the point is, in this particular instance, there is no way one can express their view on gender without making the other person feel invalidated if said view is binary while the person they’re talking to is non-binary, right? This is really tricky because it’s such a personal topic. I want to be able to express my views on gender if that’s the topic in question but I don’t want to make anyone feel invalidated. Ugh.

A sense making discussion❤️

Some people are willing to reshuffle the dictionary until it works in their favor.

The problem with ceding the ground and "using preferred pronouns" is that it is disingenuous...they have an endgame in mind. They are going to keep advancing until society accept men can be women and women can be men etc....

I might go along if someone identifies as the other sex if at least they're making an effort to pass. Non-binary however is something I can't go along with because, aside from intersex or hermaphroditism, it is something that simply does not exist, despite activists claiming otherwise. And I will regard any request by someone to be addressed as "they" as a form of power play.

@thatgirlreacts5465

2 жыл бұрын

My friend has a 13 year old who says he’s non-binary and prefers they/them. It doesn’t feel like a power play in his case. To me, it feels like he’s trying to figure himself out and to fit in in a world where he’s surrounded by leftists. They’re at his school and at his home. So what can a vulnerable 12/13 year old do to fit in when everyone else has a special pronoun or won’t shut up about how how different and special we all are? I honestly think he’s just trying to fit in, it all started ‘coincidentally’ after he met this non-binary lesbian girl for whom he had a crush.

So where is the line? How about the goat lady? The vampire girl? Do you indulge them?

It's a slippery slope so we can't just be "kind".

Gender identity politics has enshrined the truth that "slippery slope" is NOT a fallacy. It is a very real and very serious concern. 'Politeness' has enabled identity politics to push reality off a cliff and down a steep slope.

Spot on, ma'am.

A person does not have their own pronouns, because no one owns language.

One of the arguments I would use: if gender is just a perception, how their perception is better than mine?

Constructing Matrix by linguistic means, mostly changing definition of words. Nothing new on The Left, Orwell wrote about that in 1984.

By me not playing their word game is in no way me forcing anything on anyone. Courtesy...how about honesty.

I like the guest as much as I dislike her microphone. Given that her mike is so blessedly god awful, that means I REALLY like this guest. Keep getting people like this Coleman, and you’ll keep getting me to watch your vids (just tell em to upgrade their audio before they come on lol).

You are such a good man!

Why stop at sex/gender when we can state our race, beauty, intellect, name or even whether I'm a child or adult. They are all just social constructs after all.

@mikekeller5202

2 жыл бұрын

I transitioned to a Klingon.

Hey Mr Hughes, talk to Kelly Jay Kean on this subject for a counter view.

The analogy isn't quite appropriate. The reverend or father or rabbi or doctor isn't self-proclaimed, he didn't just invent his title four years ago and now insists that we all have to call him like that, and also he cannot switch from reverend to rabbi just because he feels so. He has gone through instituionalised training and has been given that title from some sort of recognised authority. The analogy would rather be with the leader of the latest sect. I suppose you wouldn't call such a person "father" just to appease him. Nobody really decides by himself who or what he is. When people do so usually we call them impostors.

The "reverend" analogy only goes so far....because when calling someone "Reverend" you are only acknowledging that they are an ordained minister of some denomination, which is a statement of fact and independent of whether one believes the religious claims of that denomination. The analogy would be if someone, who you knew was not an ordained minister wanted you to call them "Reverend"....then would you call them reverend?

Totalitarian insistence…….very good phrasing

I want to be called Maestro!

This was interesting, thanks!

@dodec8449

2 жыл бұрын

She's a boring predictable grifter who ignores science.

@Individual_Lives_Matter

2 жыл бұрын

@@dodec8449 Oh boy, the science is settled eh? Are we talking post-woke science? Ideologically driven by crybullies and gender studies zealots?

@dodec8449

2 жыл бұрын

@@Individual_Lives_Matter No

I don’t dislike trans people, but like Helen says, using preferred pronouns is a societal claim. If we give the “nice” and respectful trans people their preferred pronouns, on what grounds can we reject the claims of the entitled and aggressive ones who demand inclusion?

@spidgeb3292

10 ай бұрын

You can reject anyone's claims or demands at any time for any reason you feel is warranted in the moment. For example, one reason for refusing to use made-up pronouns may be "because you're being a dick about it." Or you might decide to use made-up pronouns because it's your spouse's cousin and you're sharing a table at a wedding reception and you don't need the headache. It's not important what others may conclude; that's out of your control. It only matters that you believe you're making good decisions for good reasons.

Something that I don't understand, but have always been to timid to ask: Why is it so common to see men, I'm talking about people who are clearly "natal males" as Coleman puts it, putting their preferred pronouns in their Twitter/LinkedIn profiles etc? I understand if you're a guy, but for whatever reason you want people to use female pronouns when referring to you, OKAY, you put that in your profile so that people know how you want to be addressed. But if your just a guy, there is no need to put HE/HIM in your profile, the English language already establishes that we use HE and HIM as pronouns for guys, so wtf? Not just men, you also see women do the same thing, with SHE/HER listed as their "pronouns". Can anyone explain this? I feel like it's crazy.

@Edgar-Friendly

2 жыл бұрын

Peacock narcissism.

@Individual_Lives_Matter

2 жыл бұрын

Larping to feel special. No real purpose or success in their lives…

I would not call someone "Father" who is a catholic priest. I would not refer to someone as a "Doctor" who practices Chiropractic. I would not call someone something they are not.. Language matters. You control what people can and cannot say, and in a sense, you are on your way to starting to control those people..

@myideas8548

2 жыл бұрын

@@theologyofthebody8383 I hear you and mean no disrespect, but given the ills of the Catholic Church in ancient times and current times, I see no reason to bestow the head of it's congregation any more special treatment than any other decent person I might interact with, unless I became friends with them (and then they would get the respect of a trusted friend). They are not a "father" figure to me, just as a Chiropractor would never be a "doctor" to me. Two types of people, I would, in a general sense, not seek guidance from. To each his own.

I think Ben has said that his policy of not referring to people by their “preferred pronouns” is only when in a public setting where that is the issues at hand. I could be wrong about this though my memory is kinda shit.

The second you try to tell others what to say and believe about gender, you've gone to far. He she has been used long before these people tried dictate to others what it should mean.

what book is she referring?

Someone believing they are something and asking to be referred to as such is not equivalent to a someone earning a title.

One important question: do adjusted pronouns actually resolve/help the individual requesting the change?

@thatgirlreacts5465

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. It makes them feel validated.

@catherinerobilliard7662

2 жыл бұрын

I won’t use them, politeness be damned. I also take issue with a man saying he’s living as a woman - no, he’s living as a man, because he is a man.

@liamcraddock9539

Жыл бұрын

It helps narcissists decide who's submissive and who they can get away with emotionally manipulating.

@iangalbraith1993

Жыл бұрын

I agree! Kathleen Stock describes it as being ‘immersed in a fiction’. I’m not participating

@liamcraddock9539

Жыл бұрын

@@thatgirlreacts5465 I see people on one side of the issue use that term "validated" a lot. What do they mean by that? If you actually, genuinely believe you are something, why do you need to demand others confirm it for you? It just sounds like a disguised way of saying "I can't be happy unless absolutely everyone around me agrees with me at all times and I should be given the social control and dominance to force things to be viewed my way"... Maybe that's not the case but I've never seen it explained as anything different to that.

It's not needlessly rude, it's not a nick name. To many its a reference to sex. Tolerance is a two way street. In not talking about using pejoratives. Let's not conflate the two.

Even though in her book nobody should be confused about what sex somebody was, Helen had to consider "how do I speak to communicate, how do I get people to read my book and listen to what I'm saying and understand it ". That is an interesting conundrum because pronouns carry a sex classification since pronouns substitute for common nouns and common nouns are the name for, in this case, a member of a particular sex class. That is the confusion that needs to be unpacked.

I will call any person by their preferred proper name or nickname in the second person. However, pronouns are mine to speak about people, to other people, based on our physical reality.

A non-problem. If one is addressing a person, one uses a second-person pronoun ("you"). If one is talking about the person to someone else, just use the person's proper name. If one is talking about the person as part of a group, just use the plural third-person pronoun ("they"). Agreed that if there is an implicit claim by a biological male to have the right to be put in a women's prison, then there is a problem.

@shanihandel9621

2 жыл бұрын

Many employers have rules against misgendering which means you can get reported for 3rd person pronouns used in emails, conversations etc. the escape clause is that it has to be ‘intentional’. But how to prove intent?

@liamcraddock9539

Жыл бұрын

I'll refer to people by their biological sex and that's that. If my lack of submissiveness and their lack of dominance and control through threat over what I say is distressing to the person... I don't want them around me because I know what those symptoms indicate.

We oddly haven't created a gender neutral form of formal address, Sir/Maam/?

@nochepatada

Жыл бұрын

"Asshole" Is my preferred gender neutral pronoun

Who knew that sexuality would become a political weapon?

Doesn't the pronoun thing just come up when you refer to someone in the third person? Presumably in their presence? That's not very common, unless you're telling a story about them, to other people.

I wouldn't be interested in attempting to keep up with the many different pronouns I may need to keep track of because I would feel put upon. My solution? A person named Bill discovers he's trans and would now prefer to go by the name Debbie. If someone walks up to the table where Debbie and I are sitting to discover Debbie isn't there, and asks, "Where's Debbie?" I would reply, "Debbie's using the bathroom". Easy, peezy lemon squeezy.

My approach is this (and I think it's quite reasonable): If a person consistently identifies and presents themselves as a man, then I will refer to him as "he". If a person consistently identifies and presents themselves as a woman, then I will refer to her as "she". If a person consistently identifies and presents themselves as neither a man nor a woman, then I will refer to them as "they". If a person is not consistent with how they identify and present themselves, then I will refer to them however I see fit. If a person identifies as a man or woman but uses they/them pronouns. That makes no sense to me, and I'm not doing it. If a person uses some other constructed pronouns, I'm not doing that either.

Didn't quite get Shapiro's take on this. He has always said that he would use preferred pronouns in private but he won't do it during public discourse.

@alexrose538

2 жыл бұрын

Because in public discourse truth and reality has to be realized for the discussion to even take place.

It's probably a case where people will do whatever's the least trouble in the moment. For example, if I'm stuck on a two-hour train ride sitting across from someone who demands I use a particular pronoun I otherwise would not use, I might do it just to avoid friction and awkwardness. Nobody should conclude that I've just expressed my respect for, or validation of, anything. Those things are not extracted on request/demand. They're granted based on much more important characteristics and meaningful social interaction. And demanding others pay homage to their sexual identity (which they claim can change at any moment, along with their pronouns) is a formula for isolation and disappointment. They're giving people too much power over their mental health. Demanding that the world adapt to your demands, insecurities, delusions, and preferences is not a good way to gain acceptance or confidence. You can reasonably expect common courtesy. Anything more is negotiated through extended interaction.

agreed. It comes down to the individual. If a trans individual is cool and willing to sit and have a drink with me and chat... if they stop and correct me that I have used the wrong pronoun I have no problem changing this for them. My problem is when complete strangers come at you as a tribal alliance and use this as a political bully club to force you to change your behavior without even a conversation. It ASSUMES I am an asshole or that all people are assholes and deserve to be "corrected" en masse. HOw can you say this when you have not met all people? It feels very elitist and arrogant and authoritarian while pretending to be about protecting the vulnerable. If its just another human being wanting something from me to feel more comfortable then of course... I would want to be courteous and make them feel comfortable. No issue. And as a gay dude, for me it all comes down to a simple fact of life about the human race THAT WILL NOT CHANGE EVER... you will gain more allies by addressing people in truth and respect than you will as a bitchy hollering bully/victim. I've never had a problem being gay in dealing with people. But I always come at them as an individual who happens to be gay... not as the member of a political alliance that is policing every thing they say and do. When you take on this kind of "gonna get you" attitude people will generally want to tell you to F off... and I don't blame them. You are only making trans people look bad... when in reality most just want basic human dignity and respect as we all do.

seems it is likely your politeness will end up undermining women's rights. maybe ben is right.

I absolutely would refuse to call a Catholic priest "father." It's a term of respect and authority, and I neither respect Catholic priests nor recognize their authority.

@iAmTheSquidThing

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, I might have trouble with that too. Likewise I would be reluctant to address a member of the Royal family as "Your Highness" or "Sir". If a person consistently identifies and presents as neither a man nor a woman, I'm generally willing to refer to them as "they". But even with nicknames, there's a limit. For example if someone demands to be called "076a459d77ef1359b" I'm not doing it. And likewise, I'm not using weird constructed pronouns like "thon".

@Individual_Lives_Matter

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I felt like a phony and a liar (lump in the throat) when I did it when I was younger. I won’t do it now.

If you have ever listened to any of his college speeches you would know Shapiro's stance on this. In private conversation/interaction he will use what makes the person more comfortable (or he really just the person's name). When he is in a public setting when the "ask" for the use of pronouns is essentially demanded he defaults to the biological reality of the person. It is the compelled/required nature of the ask of pronoun use Ben objects to. The activists have blurred the lines to such a degree that if there is no line in the sand then incorrect use of preferred pronouns will be criminalized in the real world like they already are on Twitter. Instead of being banned from posting you could get jail time and or a fine. Essentially Ben has a similar position the Jordan Peterson on the public vs private pronoun usage. With Bill C16 Canada has made it possible to fine and nail a person for improper pronoun usage. That could make it way into the American judicial system.

Coleman, I think you're misrepresenting Shapiro's views. From the videos I've seen, he'd agree with your position in this video clip entirely.

I think I've heard Ben Shapiro say that he would make the concession in private but when he's talking about the issue publicly he wouldn't.

@gogeta667

2 жыл бұрын

For civility's sake, he would probably do it. Like you wouldn't intentionally fuck with someone who is Schizophrenic. The problem arises when it comes to actually debating the topic. Using their "pronouns" automatically concedes your argument. I can be courteous, but I refuse to believe it. There was an ex-military, transgender woman at a job I had a while ago. Everyone was so impressed at the amount of physical labor they could do. As a man myself, but less active, I couldn't do as much and got somewhat ridiculed. Y'know like "Ha, a girl's out-lifting you, bro." Shit like that, right? Problem is what should be obvious. That's a man. It's a man who, after maybe thirty years of being pumped full of testosterone, decides to put on a skirt and a bra, with a wig and all, and going through a military career who is now pretending to be a woman. And these weirdos are acting as if it's true. You can be nice, but not perpetuate a delusion.

@isoutoforbit

2 жыл бұрын

@@gogeta667 the people that ridiculed you obviously were obviously in on the joke, it was probably more of a jab to the trans woman than to you.

@gogeta667

2 жыл бұрын

@@isoutoforbit I wish that were the case, but aside from two others, they were all lefties. I'm talkin "Kyle Rittenhouse is a murderer." ACAB type shit. There were store managers telling stories about how they reprimanded a person for not using pronouns and labeled him a "transphobe" for it and etc. Lady with a BLM mask hyping up middle schoolers with her propagandist bullshit. It was bad.

I think its rude for people to expect you to use pronouns they have to tell you to use.

@dodec8449

2 жыл бұрын

Would you feel the same about someone who changed his name and insists you call him by his new name?

@lminterests5590

2 жыл бұрын

@@dodec8449 No I wouldn't. I would use a new name. A pronoun is not a name..

@dodec8449

2 жыл бұрын

@@lminterests5590 No, but you know what I mean right? A name is traditionally given to you as well, but we don't think it's difficult when someone is changing there name.

@lminterests5590

2 жыл бұрын

@@dodec8449 A new name can be difficult. Its also a rare occurance to change a first. You won't get fined for using the old name. Or called names (bigot, transfobe...). A LGB group trying to seperate themselves from the T's described the medical community's treatment of trans people as LG conversion 2.0.

@lminterests5590

2 жыл бұрын

@@dodec8449 I'm actually where those in the video are. Out of courtesy i will generally use a pronoun although think to myself the person is a minor jerk. But I don't think "Trans Women are WOMEN". The bigger problem is the non-binary who expect you to misuse singular and plural pronouns. Or even to use other sounds/words the're calling pronouns you've never heard of.

Can two trans women get funding for a business geared towards women and/or minorities?

@TheLadyDelirium

2 жыл бұрын

Funding from who?

@Individual_Lives_Matter

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheLadyDelirium The gubberment. There are all sorts of misguided “diversity” initiatives out there now. Intersectionality is taking off as the new state religion.

I don't see how this is even as issue. The only time one addresses someone with a pronoun with the second person pronoun "you" .

I'm surprised that this issue is more left. I'm a Democrat and I still don't agree with the idea of preferred pronouns. I'm not a republican or conservative, and I don't plan on changing that. I consider myself a traditional democrat.

There is a solution.

the pronouns thing makes no sense. pronouns are in the 3rd person, you don't talk to someone in the 3rd person, you call them you/your/yours. when you refer to them in the 3rd person, that's normally considered rude and the person will normally protest. "I am here you know!" so, they're telling you how to talk about them when they're not even there?

If a person asked you to refer to them as a cat would you play along? What about if an adult asked to refer to them as a child? Would you accept their delusion?

@Cipher_X_x

2 жыл бұрын

What’s crazy is there’s actually people like both of those examples. Personally I refuse to play along.

These preferred pronouns are an affront to language. They make communication more difficult. I’ve never come across anyone who requires a preferred pronoun so there is that. I perceive the people “needing” these as needy and not getting along. I like to get along, so I would avoid these people. Viewing this from afar, it appears the more accepting we’ve been has emboldened people to demand more and more “rights”, beyond what makes sense, beyond what is good for the mental health of many of these people, beyond what is helpful for communication and beyond what is safe for women. Too much is based on lies in the guise of being accepting. No thanks.

The thing about Pronouns is that you hardly use them when talking with someone one on one, but only when you are talking about them with somebody else. So it's really affirming for cleeks to use them just as nicknames, in-jokes and catch-phrases bond small groups of friends together. But to be offended that someone doesn't use your pronouns who might not believe in the way you are labeling yourself is presumptuous at the least. It really is a very insidious linguistic trick. Almost as authoritarian as a decree to call all bread the flesh of Christ.

@DanielEarth1

Жыл бұрын

Very well put. Being asked to use someone’s preferred pronoun when they’re not around is out of Alice in Wonderland.

I'm not sure why choosing to use the preferred pronouns in her book was just to "get people to read her book" and not simply the right choice? If you believe that trans women can live as women in society, surely you wouldn't want to burden speech with the prior arduous confirmation of biological sex. And surely you wouldn't be courteous enough to address trans people by their preferred pronouns but then make a determined effort to use their biological sex's pronouns behind their back. I would assume anyone with self-respect would feel odd about that.

@dodec8449

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, you are right. I wonder what other things she had put in the book "just to get people read the book". What a weird cowardly argument to make.

@tinymutantsquid

2 жыл бұрын

Who finds it so arduous to use biological sex to determine the correct pronoun? People have been doing it for thousands of years, no problem, and more often than not nobody even needs to drop their shorts for "confirmation". It's certainly less arduous than the confirmation of prefered pronouns based on what gender somebody feels they are, which may not correlate at all with their biological appearance. Of course, you may feel it's important and the right thing to do, but I don't see how you can honestly say that is less burdensome on language.

@dodec8449

2 жыл бұрын

@@tinymutantsquid How would you know someone's biological sex ... it's not always that obvious

@isoutoforbit

2 жыл бұрын

@@tinymutantsquid I don't get this point, you think it's obvious what genitals someone has when they seem they could be either gender? Let's not even account for the people that look like their transitioned gender perfectly, which that alone eliminates your argument.. but even those who don't seem to fully look like women, could actually just be a butch female, are you gonna use male pronouns to address them because of your assumption that they don't have a real vagina? Yes, in mind this whole process is tremendously arduous and ruinous to polite society.

So your beliefs aren't as sacred to you as others peoples beliefs are to them.

I find this all confusing. I cannot keep up with all these different titles.

It's insane, don't humor the attention seekers. I will not use "personal" pronouns.

Coleman looks high AF.

Tell me your name

I dont see how your pronoun is your choice. I evaluate people by my standards for gender then I use one. I would rather have a flat out screaming match than use made up words or singular they for someone. & to be honest these people don't have the epistemological grounding to claim what the activists claim.

It is a gnostic cult. It is a moral imperative NOT to be nice to this stuff

I use 'I' and 'Me' pronouns...

Tyranny always begins by just putting the camels nose under the tent. Just a little nose gee wiz.

Didn’t realize people identified as reverends

The reverand thing doesnt make sense. Bad analogy. Reverand is a pronoun like doctor is a pronoun. Its a title thats given as a result of completing a field of study. Completely different from me asking someone to call me a dinosaur cause i feel like a dinosaur or even to call me a doctor even though i havent earned that title. These kinds of mistakes create misunderstandings. You call a reverand a reverand not cause u believe in the religion. I call a monk a monk regardless of whether im a buddhist etc… have to be real accurate otherwise it leaves room for ridiculous people to make other ridiculous claims.

Honestly you all make such a big deal about this... this does not affect me at all, most people don't even interact at all with Trans People.

“If the world was the way the LEFT perceives it to be, it would be a better world than the RIGHT perceives it to be; it just so happens that the world, is just, not that way” THOMAS SOWELL

Not a fanboy, but Ben Shapiro is correct on this one.

@isoutoforbit

2 жыл бұрын

Not really, the only thing you need to do to call trans people by their preferred pronouns is extend the usage of pronouns to include them, not adopt a whole new ideology on the biology of sex.

@Google_Censored_Commenter

2 жыл бұрын

@@isoutoforbit Or flip the thing on its head, and say they ought to respect YOUR word choice. Why exactly should they have dominion over what YOU call them? If they don't like it, they're perfectly welcome to not talk to you. Ultimately, they're claiming offense that you don't use a word they want you to use, and you can just as easily claim offense that they want to control your language, which words you are and aren't allowed to use about other people. Taking offense at *that* makes infinitely more sense.

@davidacharles1962

2 жыл бұрын

@@Google_Censored_Commenter Very well stated!

@isoutoforbit

2 жыл бұрын

@@Google_Censored_Commenter You're picturing an indoctrinated leftist who's trans because it's the trendy 'fuck the system' thing to do. I'm picturing a real trans person that just wants to live their lives and simply be respected. Not the type of person that would raise hell for being misgendered. My point is the simplest thing for society to do without creating chaotic new language rules, is just use the pronouns of the people based on their secondary sex characteristics, most real trans people pass just fine, no need to bend your mind in order to call them by their preferred pronouns. Keeping things simple is usually the best way forward.

@Google_Censored_Commenter

2 жыл бұрын

@@isoutoforbit Even if it's a real trans person, it doesn't change. I want my word usage to be respected too. You're right, the simplest thing for society to do, is to just stick with the rules we have, which is SEX based pronouns. That's right, not gender pronouns, not secondary sex characteristic-pronouns either. Would you say "him" to a masculine, tomboyish woman who just happens to enjoy spending time with the boys? Of course not. Would you say "her" to a flamboyant gay guy? No, you wouldn't. Because your gender expression is never what we used to (or should start using) to determine which pronouns you go by. So yeah, let's keep things simple and stick to the reality of sex. Simply respond with "I am sorry, I don't feel comfortable using sepcial pronouns for you, I would rather treat you as an equal, hope you can respect that." And if the transperson is highly offended and starts screaming, then THEY are being disrespectful, not you.

Preferred pronouns are a test: do you accept the ideology? ....do you agree that I should have access to all spaces abd rights currently accessed by my chosen 'gender'? It's not hateful to believe gender nonconforming people should be safe and treated with due courtesy AND believe that males have no place in women's spaces, sports etc AND believe children should not be placed on a harmful, experimental, sterilising lifelong and life-shortening medical path.

@nochepatada

Жыл бұрын

My preferred pronoun is "His Royal Highness" but nobody calls me that or treats me like nobility ☹

I'm with Ben Shapiro on this. Using incorrect pronouns like she/her for a man is wrong. Freedom of speech and reality all the way. I'll never comply with this pronoun nonsense. It damages women and I've lost patience with it.