The creativity was the thing that let me choose the imperial guard, to create my own thing

@jc7997aj

Жыл бұрын

The guard are the squished bugs on the boot heels of the galaxies bad asses.

@ChrisKCook

Жыл бұрын

Kitbashers joy.

@samkostos4520

Жыл бұрын

For 80+ years there were ONLY plastic army men (imperial guard) then a company decided to create spacemarines and NOW I KID YOU NOT plastic army men are considered the "CREATIVE" choice.

I don't mind returning Primarchs, I just prefer them to stay as behind the scenes movers and shakers rather than centerpiece models (same goes for Belisarius Cawl, Morvenn Vahl, or even Abaddon). I just can't enjoy playing them on the table, I'd rather have a list of unknown "my dudes". That said, as a longtime Crimson Fists player, a Rogal Dorn model makes me salivate.

@TarnaxTheBarbarian

Жыл бұрын

I was about to say this. The power level of primarch is too large to put onto the table, though I feel the same about figures like the Silent King. I do think they're fun characters, however, and would still like to see them used to advance the setting in certain ways. I dont want "my dudes" to feel irrelevant because I cant run a primarch on the table, but I do want Gene Father Leman Russ "in charge" of all the Space Wolves chapters. It would also really help successor chapters feel more unified with their original legion without disrupting the game.

@knightofcaliban146

Жыл бұрын

I mean, you can still have an army of unknown "my dudes" with the primarchs coming back.

@Sammo212

Жыл бұрын

@@TarnaxTheBarbarian I mean, isn't that what the custodes are?

@TarnaxTheBarbarian

Жыл бұрын

@@Sammo212 I'm afraid I dont follow. Can you please elaborate?

@Sammo212

Жыл бұрын

The custodes power levels are so high that the units we field in a 2000 point game should just smear the floor with any equivalent 2000 point army. The problem here, honestly, is lore vs tabletop, in that regard...hell, the same argument could be said for traitor primarchs or something like Imperial Knights.

My biggest issues with primarchs is that they tend to warp the setting and stories to be about them, like a narrative black hole. It's fine if you like them, but every other faction gets pulled in to their orbit. All of the story progression we have is now about replaying the Horus heresy, which by its nature is all about spacemarines. Also on a somewhat related note, I haaaate feeling obligated to take a named character to make an army work vaguely competitively. I feel like I'm mandated to take Vahl with my sister's to get them to perform, which is frustrating, and primarchs risk falling in to that trap. Less hero hammer please, or at least make it the generics if you're going to do it!

Jaghatai escaping Commoragh with Aun'Shi at his side and joining the Tau as a heretic in the eyes of the Imperium is a great idea! Thanks Discourse.

@nicofolkersma2535

Жыл бұрын

Corax would join the Tau, the Khan would just go and collect all his descendants for a big race around known space. And kick Dark Eldar and Ork ass ofcourse.

@blazingknight.

Жыл бұрын

@@nicofolkersma2535 pretty sure Doomrider would love to join the race as well :D

@nicofolkersma2535

Жыл бұрын

@@blazingknight. 😂

@ChrisKCook

Жыл бұрын

@@blazingknight. Doomrider is why I'm sad that they hadn't switched to making kits do 2 or 3 unuts where possible when they redid the Chaos Bikers. A whole unit of Doomriders would be awesome.

Agreed, my favorite kind of fictional setting is the sandbox kind that invites people to add to it and tell their own stories. It has to be bounded by rules so that the things people come up with actually fit together, but this kind of collaborative storytelling is a huge part of the fun. Even named characters were always just templates that you could fill with a different character of your own imagining. The primarchs cross that boundary where you can't really just make up your own primarch though, because the setting is very specific about how many of them exist and what their history is.The whole idea that the space marine legions were broken up into smaller chapters served to empower players to make up their own chapter. Allowing players to field primarchs basically completely goes back on that idea because your homebrew chapter simply wouldn't have a primarch.

@Gormathius

Жыл бұрын

Make up some mumbo-jumbo about how one of the early Custodes got whisked away due to Warp shenanigans and grew up on (or simply attached to, assuming it's post-development) some isolated far-off planet, and there you have a psuedo-Primarch. A splinter group of a Space Marine legion (or chapter if it's post Second Founding) at some point lands on this world and comes to accept this lost Custodian as their leader. Sometimes, all you need is a bit of wiggle room and a roughly equivalent stand-in. Doubt GW would allow this wiggle room to any semi-official extent, though.

@user-fp3in2kf3b

Жыл бұрын

Sandbox without proper main plotline is boring. Primarchs return create this "main plotline". Without them WH40K was a collection of boring day events. Something like: "Look, GazKull return on Armageddon for 53-d time! Yarrick kick his ass...again" or "Just another fail for Abbadon! Nobody really care about his Black Crusades anymore..."

@ChrisKCook

Жыл бұрын

@untreated ADHD you know that many of those Chapters started as home brew right?

My main problem with Primarchs and WH40k in general is immersion. The game itself never represents the settting itself faithfully and it completely throws me off. You have that galaxy spanning war of countless trillions of beings and on the tabletop you have a handful of models wiping themselves out in 4 turns. Add to that Primarchs and the immersion break is complete when demigods of legend run around with 20 models on the field when actually they would lead armies billions of soldiers strong. Looking at that on a tabletop battlefield and taking a mental step back all that is left for me is a comical feeling of missing scale and a betrayal of the in universe narrative rules.

I think the lore changes brought about by primarchs might be to big. Remember the galaxy is a big place supposedly. It used to be that it would take between 6-40 years in real time to travel from one side of the imperium to the other. This is why in the old telling of the HH had them not doing much as they were out on the eastern fringe when it kicked off. Having someone turn up and turn everything on it's head makes the galaxy feel to small.

Naw, you aren't losing me. You responded with your argument why you thought he was wrong after he asked for a response. Perfectly reasonable.

@thegreengreenie5879

Жыл бұрын

agree or disagree; it creates discussion huh

@jc7997aj

Жыл бұрын

@@thegreengreenie5879 or ... wait for it .... discourse about miniatures 🤔

@ChrisKCook

Жыл бұрын

Yes but have you seen how Valrak responds to feedback that disagrees with him?

@waylonswartz3850

Жыл бұрын

@@ChrisKCook no. What does he do, how does he handle it? Please?

@ChrisKCook

Жыл бұрын

@Waylon Swartz he gets pissy and passive-aggressive. He still hasn't given a good argument or any evidence for why he is so convinced that 10th Edition is coming next year even though thete is actual evidence that it's at least a year off. Apparently, I'm unreasonable for asking for evidence ...

I like Primarchs as centre pieces of an army but just like I have Ghaz in my Ork army he only makes apearences on the table top very rarely. Mainly the Orks are led by my own Ork Warboss. And I think this is the key for me, big powerful models are fun but bringing them out only in big games makes them more special to play and lore accurate. Gulliman, Morty et aren't turning up for a small skirmish. Also Valrak is a self confessed Space Marine fanboy but a decent bloke Space Marines and Primarchs make him happy and there is nothing wrong with that. Great Video though with some good points.

@lastsurvivingemothefox9797

Жыл бұрын

100% agree. My sororitas army will have morvenn vahl while on the shelf- I won’t bring her in 95% of games, but every army deserves a massive centerpiece.

@blazingknight.

Жыл бұрын

@@lastsurvivingemothefox9797 back in the day Land Raiders and Baneblades used to be centerpieces haha

I hate them being back in the game. I wish they were part of the lore and lost to time. HOWEVER I'm also ok with zero progression in the lore, time never needs to advance, nothing needs to change, no new units no new editions. Just give me compelling stories from the 40k and new better sculpts. But I'm a weirdo and don't think that GW or anyone else agrees with me

@rangda_prime

Жыл бұрын

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have been called a weirdo as well, for what it is worth.

@giorgiofenu5563

Жыл бұрын

I can se where you're coming from and i partially agree with you, i didn't like the stagnation of the plot but now it's advancing way too fast, some small leap forward from time to time would be great imo

The tales of the primarches will never match the greatness from Rogue Trader that was in our group Lucky the one legged no armed bionic human bomb.

One time, the Batman was chasing me, so I threw a rock at him!

@DiscourseMinis

Жыл бұрын

"it was a big rock" i did not expect anyone to get this reference lol

@user-fp3in2kf3b

Жыл бұрын

@@DiscourseMinis Sandbox without proper main plotline is boring. Primarchs return create this "main plotline". Without them WH40K was a collection of boring day events. Something like: "Look, GazKull return on Armageddon for 53-d time! Yarrick kick his ass...again" or "Just another fail for Abbadon! Nobody really care about his Black Crusades anymore..." . Point is -Primarchs bring a big changes with them (create new major on Horus Heresy lvl events ), because they are +\- only ones who is able to do so (other 95% characters able to generate only small local events nobody care about) . Interesting part is - watch how WH40k setting would reflect on them. More then thet - it does not contradict with "make your own characters and stories". Adopting your own stories and characters with events of major plotline would be even more interesting thing to do

I especially agree with your last points: I personally loved the idea and character of primarchs as long as they were distant, legendary figures, paradigms of something that could never be reached again, except maybe in a corrupted and distorted parody of themselves (and that's why I was ok with the idea of chaos-corrupted primarchs still roaming around). There was something in all of this that echoed with many foundational miths of humanity, and thus somehow viscerally resonating with our human nature (that must be why they had to go in their original form, isn't it). Also, as you said, Warhammer used to leave the setting open for us to chart our personal stories in a dark, gothic, unsettling world, constantly on the brink of disaster. I think it's safe to say it has all been gone for a while now. Warhammer is undergoing the same process the Marvel Universe has gone through: it's just a soulless corporate Ip, the story chugs along bland, stale narrative "developments" in line with market releases, and the only "messages" it's really allowed to vehicle... Well, let's not even go down this path. It's not just space marines. I mean, look at the Eldar as they were on the old artworks, and I am not even speaking of the dark ones: they were... hieratic but ugly, in an unsettling, way. Thier aesthetic was genuinely distinctive. They gradually became space waifus. Meh... (ps, sorry for my English: not my mother tongue...)

Oh my God, Discourse, I applaud standing! I can’t agree more, each of your points are spot on. And I came to the same realisation after Valrak’s video as you, it’s not the Primaris or Primarchs that bother me, it’s the storyline advancing now. And I firmly believe that by reintroducing the Primarchs and advancing the story further 40k lost much more than it gained (as a setting, not as a business). One thing I know for sure: my tabletop stories will remain in the time before the Fall of Cadia. Thank you for this great video. I know everyone is free to enjoy whatever they want, I’m just kinda shocked how many people want the Primarchs back in 40k under weirdest of reasons. All while there is The Horus Heresy out there existing for them to enjoy the Primarchs. UPD: There are so many stories GW could’ve told across the 10000 years of Imperium’s history, yet they’ve decided to condense all the events into the story of Guilliman’s waking up adventures. Quite sad

For me, having come into the hobby at Heroquest and Space Crusade, GW have been answering questions, and... I found the answers less fun than the mystery.

@rangda_prime

Жыл бұрын

@@BonusHole Yep, this is the reason the Dark Souls games are so beloved, there's a definite story there but it's intentionally made with large gaps in it for the player to fill in.

Really compelling video that deep dives into the WHY behind our motivations as players and humans. I really appreciate your content Discord and I'm happy to watch your continued success here!

@DiscourseMinis

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!!

@HolyknightVader999

Жыл бұрын

@@DiscourseMinis I can imagine someone who likes to play their own custom armies would love a chance to beat a Primarch in battle. Imagine someone with his or her own custom Eldar or Tau army handing Guilliman or Lion'El Johnson their ceramite-plated butts and writing a story about it.........that is, if it wasn't for the fact that these Primarchs are OP in-game.

I’ve long ago given up on 40k from the tabletop piece of 40k. I only get into the books and lore. You made good points and I agree with you in a way, but as an almost 50yr old 40k geek from the 80s I’m enjoying some of their increased presence in the novels & lore.

My two points. Firstly, when I imagined the Primarchs as a wee lad, I thought their main thing was they would obviously be super geniuses, not Superman. Psychic, for sure, but also half machine in their ability to play 4D chess with their armies. Then GW turned them into a power fantasy right out of a comic book. I guess growing up reading The Foundation novels in dreary 1980s Sweden made my imagination less flashy. But the Primarchs were basically The Mule from Foundation, but 20 of them, with vast space armies at their beck and call as I was concerned. Or 20 Mentats who had grown up reading Sun Tzu and could read minds. My second point is that the loyalist Priarchs should not come back. Ever. Only the Chaos ones should. This is the Grimdark future, where being a person means you are a short spark in the dark. The Chaos Primarchs are still alive because they sold themselves to cosmic possessing mind eating entities from Dimension X. There is nothing left of who they were, they are tools of Chaos now. This is one of the subtle ways in which the 40K universe makes what can be construed as an ethical point of view on the human condition, where it is a greater thing to be a mere mortal, a single person with a body which can be shredded and pasted in any number of ghastly ways, and with a soul which can be mutilated in even worse fashion. To stand in the face of a universe as horribly bleak as 40K and say no to the Devil offering you power and eternal life if you just become part of the horror is the ultimate heroism. And it is one way in which a average person can identify with and be the same as a universe altering Primarch, because you are making the same choice and taking the same stand as those who stayed loyal did, for better or for worse. I am also completely with you on the topic of the difference between creating your own hobby experience rather than just consuming pre packaged content. It is supposed to be about Your Guys and Your War. Not to watch the latest Primarch Avengers movie.

@DiscourseMinis

Жыл бұрын

i actually don't mind the Chaos Primarchs at all on reflection! I like the idea of them returning - so long as they're particularly monstrous. The scales should be weighted in favour of Chaos imo, and the misbegotten remnants of Primarchs are perfectly fitting. But ultimately the setting, to me, is regressive. Pushing it forward like a comic series feels off

@rangda_prime

Жыл бұрын

@@DiscourseMinis Yep, it is truly not needed. It is an alternative historical setting. You can play Heresy Era, Badab War, any weird little war you can dig up in the lore, the Tyrannic Wars, Armageddon 1, 2 or 3 or just Five to Midnight Modern 40K or anything else you can dig out. The comic book style plot progression is to me a manifestation of Late Stage Capitalism, where everything is monetized to make us into renters rather than participants.

@kamerionsmith4551

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the way battles in this universe always revolve around characters and not armies feels very shounen anime and not wargamey

@HolyknightVader999

Жыл бұрын

So you imagined the Primarchs more like Grand Admiral Thrawn than Superman? I get it. It makes more sense for them to lead a Space Marine Legion if they were made that way, but thanks to current trends regarding superheroes, GW eventually rewrote them to be more like superheroes.

@rangda_prime

Жыл бұрын

@@HolyknightVader999 Yes, that is an apt comparison. And yeah, they command vast space fleets, millions of Space Marines and have weapons of mass destruction on speed dial, yet their mission is to conquer rather than just destroy the universe. Being really, really good at swinging a Thunderhammer is a skill they ought to be outsourcing to others and if you have to pick a limited number of things your super generals could be good at, DELEGATING tasks would be one of mandatory ones, lol.

As a newer player to 40k, I do enjoy Primarchs in terms of their design and power. I understand why people wouldn't however but personally I really enjoy just having these big bloody powerful models running around and the return of other primarchs to mix up power among factions.

The irony: in lore, the Daemon primarchs get owned, A LOT. Angron and Mortarion both get taken out by the Grey Knights (Morty gets Kaldor Draigo’s name carved on his heart to seal a ritual). Magnus gets owned LITERALLY EVERY TIME HE FIGHTS THE SPACE WOLVES. He gets banished by a Blood Claw poking him in his singular eye (granted, it was Ragnar Blackmane). On the tabletop, Magnus was lame through most of 8th edition, and using him in 9th is basically playing on Hard Mode. Primarchs aren’t currently I WIN buttons, but they should be better than they are.

I always felt that was too much emphasis on space marines, since I got into the hobby back in the 90s. There was always balancing issues with GW, and they always had the focus on selling miniatures first, and creating good games second. Buy this new overpowered army and beat your mates etc. The main issue I see is that space marines should be a jack of all trades, but master of none (like the human bloodbowl team), but that doesn't seem to be the case. The introduction of the primarks doesn't help. I guess GW won't change this because it will upset there player base. For me, this is small compared to the other issues with the 40k game, but it probably doesn't help.

Rick Priestley was one of the designers, along with the incredible Jervis Johnson, that created Gorkamorka, ergo why it was brilliant and has continued to be a Cult like dedication online...

@DasBilligeAlien

Жыл бұрын

Main Writer for GorkaMorka were Andy Chambers and Gavin Thorpe. Rick Priestly and Andy Kettlewell were support writers. If I am not mistaken

@dambrooks7578

Жыл бұрын

@@DasBilligeAlien it was a long time ago that I remember reading the rules, but as anyone that has played Blood Bowl with me knows, rules are something I have, at best, a vague understanding of as I still play like it's 3rd edition, mostly; and I haven't played Gorkamorka in nearly ten or fifteen years now, so naturally I don't read the rules for fun. I honestly thought Jervis Johnson had written ot with Gav Thorpe, learn something new every day, cheers 😊

@DasBilligeAlien

Жыл бұрын

@@dambrooks7578 I mean you are not entierly wrong. GorkaMorka uses the 40k rules engine. Whcih was written by Priestly and Johnson. I just have an annoying amount of knowledge on who wrote which rules, that is useless outside of situations like this. :D So please excuse my reckless usage of it.

@dambrooks7578

Жыл бұрын

@@DasBilligeAlien fear not as if know I only have a passing relationship with actually reading the rules when the pictures are so tempting 🙂

This got me thinking: creatives are probably a niche demographic and making 40k more consumable has made it much more popular with non-creative people, and because of it, in general. This is just based on a personal anecdote after coming back to the hobby in recent years, that most people I meet in the hobby look at you weird for creating your own stuff because they just expect you to only consume and follow official canon in the hobby. I find this change repulsive. Although I'm very happy that most, if not all codices in 9th edition had rules for creating your own subfaction rules (unlike 8th). I hope this carries on to 10th edition as it makes my armies feel unique on the tabletop and not just "mainstream subfaction but a different color".

@daniellewis5533

Жыл бұрын

My local FLGS guy has literally said he hates homebrew stuff because "you will never create a better fluff or color scheme than the official ones". He also only makes armies that have clearly defined lore for him to follow, and doesn't deviate from that established lore.

@t0k3p0k3

Жыл бұрын

@@daniellewis5533 I guess he never got the point that it's about personalization and self expression, not a competition of who's stuff looks / sounds better or more interesting.

Primarchs in 30K = Yey!! Primarchs in 40K = Ney!!!!

My cold take: Space Marines have gone from Grim-Dark, absurdist satire to Noble-Dark straight-faced satire. However, GW doesn't know how to write straight-faced satire and satire isn't big corporation friendly.

The moment 40K story started moving forward and we lost the mystique of the shrouded past is the moment grimdark started evaporating from the setting.

@Deimos0

Жыл бұрын

the thing is that marketing-wise and even story-wise you cannot have the stalemate of 999.M41 kept forever. The plot HAD to move at some point and no matter how it would have been handled, it would be divisive.

@Methyll

Жыл бұрын

its ironic given before GW decided to officially moved the plot forward, people were bitching about the plot being stuck in limbo. Now that its moving forward people are now bitching want things to stay in limbo. people are right you just can't please everyone.

@commanderdante3185

Жыл бұрын

@@Methyll They are just being contrarian. If you gave them exactly what they asked for they would just complain about something new. It's pointless trying to please this group.

40k is a setting and an outline. It is up to YOU to make stories and to create what you want of any faction and "the universe is a big place" if it doesn't break the lore then do what you want. That is how I play any and all of my factions

@kenupton4084

Жыл бұрын

That doesn't really work at a game club with 20 competitive players. People get a little angry when you try and tell them you don't "feel" that a shard of a Ctan would really be utilized in a particular battle. "This battle is happening in M37 so you can't use your Primarchs, they weren't awake or were still exiled by grey knights at that time, sorry."

@t0k3p0k3

Жыл бұрын

@@kenupton4084 Anyone would get angry if you tell them that their models don't belong on the table. You create and play your armies the way you want and let others do the same. For anything deeper you need to find like-minded players.

@kenupton4084

Жыл бұрын

@@t0k3p0k3 yeah, I think you tagged the wrong person, bud. You're preaching to the quire here. You're just repeating what I said back to me.

@t0k3p0k3

Жыл бұрын

@@kenupton4084 no? You said to the original comment that it doesnt work at a game club. My point was that the original comment was about playing the way you want to play, not about telling others how they should play. Unless you had replied to a comment in between that has been deleted.

Spicy indeed. What drew me in was the ability to make my story with my characters in that setting and providing me with hobby goals. I'd die on this hill too.

I find your last point about how fragmentary and unique Warhammer is as a property and the diversity of engagement the most interesting. I for one am interested to see the story move forward because it makes a fun challenge for me to head cannon in how my home brew chapter fits in to everything and how they feel about changes. I'm also the kind of hobbyist whom has painted a half dozen armies some "canonical" some my own wild interpretation, collects codices for the lore, and has never actually played a game of Warhammer (though some day I hope to spring my fully painted armies on my unsuspecting D&D/ table top friends and change that). To paraphrase Snipe and Wib : one of the coolest parts of this franchise/ hobby is unlike say a video game that patches out or updates content forever away, you can always go back to an older edition or what ever part of the universe you like the most and just play with that. other than tournaments and model production ( which are things I don't care that much about, I clearly am not a competitive player as outlined above and I have no hang up on using substitute models ) you could play a game of rouge trader with a friend today, wonky early fluff and all.

Back in the days of Rogue Trader, I designed my own chapter of Space Marines, and toyed with the idea of having one guy who had had most of his body replaced by cybernetics, and who was thousands of years old and as powerful as I could make him. I then looked at the whole "life is cheap and you don't matter" aesthetic that the game had, decided that it was a massive cop-out, and that I shouldn't do it. Then the Primarchs happened.

My biggest problem is that I collect Necrons.

@nicofolkersma2535

Жыл бұрын

That's not a problem, that's a relief. You don't have to agonize about which primarch to take.

@seriphmichael

Жыл бұрын

@@nicofolkersma2535 But he DOES have to decide whether or not to take the Silent King

@nicofolkersma2535

Жыл бұрын

@@seriphmichael Choosing wether to take 1 person is not as difficult as choosing from 7 different ones. I left out Ferrus Manus, as I don't see him comming back. Sanguinius might prove difficult as well.

@thegreengreenie5879

Жыл бұрын

somebody has too...

@ohamatchhams

Жыл бұрын

@@Black_Blow_Fly That's the point, the Necron factions' players are as contributive as Imperium factions' players at turning the settings into more directive continual stories surrounding larger-than-life characters Unfortunately I'm among the ones which disagree with Miss Discourse Miniatures as Warhammer 40K enacting it's progressing narratives towards it's end times and became less and less speculative, at least those whose hate it can move on from Warhammer 40K and occupy other Wargaming brands, as if Wargaming and tabletop games haven't been niche already, although yeah the narrative progressions in 40K have a number of similar issues as Star Wars sequel trilogy, I guess it's more on how to handles it since Disney pretty much mess it up themselves, not to say that GW can't mess it up but they have samples on what to do and what not to do, at least try to revitalise 40K animations on both official and fan-animation spheres can be a better start for them at least (I miss 40K TTS the most out of any fan-content in 40K honestly, even way more than those well-produced Astartes shorts)

I agree with you on how much fun it is to create your own lore around your army. My Adepta Sororitas chapter is a custom chapter built around the idea of a single woman having a vision of Alicia Dominica but hailing from Nocturne and revering the Salamanders, so she started the order as a way to honor both the works of the AS and Salamanders. They all wear green armor but if high enough rank, they are granted the white and red robes of EC. They devote themselves to protecting human life and prefer flame weapons like their SM counterparts and see both Alicia and Vulkan as saints of their God Emperor who were sent to spread the faith as a way to protect and usher humanity out of the current era into a new golden age. Sure, my order isn't as grimdark as many other "cannon" orders, but it was fun for me to make this story up and hare it with anyone who likes stories and lore as much as I do. If Alicia or Vulkan actually returned, it might spoil the fun mythology I've created. Who know what GW might do with them. They could end up being counterproductive to my army's mission. i dig Valrak's channel and I liked the video you've discussed, but I tend to lean a little more towards your view of primarch's returning, at least for the Imperium. I do like them being available for chaos because honestly, as a Tzeentch lover, I feel my favorite horror birds are teeated poorly by the rules, but I just chalk that up to Tzeentch's ultimate plan. TS, in my opinion, are dreadfully underserved with the over abundance of lame models pushed onto them. I don't play them because I generally think Tzanngors are a weak choice and would rather them partner up with true deamons. Since they can't take horrors, flamers, or lords or change, I'm cool with Magnus being represented there. Since I'm interested heavily in lore and story, I usually disregard Nurgle, so I can't really express much opinion of Mortarion.

"one of the missing primarchs being assimilated into the tyranids" is one of the best and most terrifying things they could do

@Grubnar

Жыл бұрын

Not really. After all, Fabius Bile has had samples of the genetic material of ALL the primarchs for 10.000 years now ... and has made nothing of note. There is more behind the creation of the Primarchs than just gene-craft ... there is sorcery! And the Tyranids do not have, not will they ever have that component. So anythng they would create would be a poor imitation at best.

@DiceandGlory

Жыл бұрын

@@Grubnar unless they've assimilated the original

I do like the Primarchs but preferred it when they were a mystery. Although given Angron's involvement in the first war for Armageddon i have always wanted to see him on the tabletop (he actually got rules back in 5th edition for Apocalypse... i think it was 5th...). Should just bring back the old rule of "you can only use this model with your opponents permission", although I guess its a bit more problematic if you've just dropped a ton on a new model only to be told you can't use it whenever you feel like... Gotta say I do love the Mortarion model and its the one stupidly huge, ridiculous centrepiece model I have actually considered buying (but haven't). The rest I'm ambivalent toward. Tend to agree with you on pretty much all your points, especially the last one. I dislike the direction of 40k too. But then I dislike the modern rules as well and am happy to stick to old lore and old editions.

I definitely agree with you, the best part of Warhammer has always been making your own stories for your own troops. I actually think it's a game where having "named" characters at all is detrimental. Having them in the setting as inspiration is great, having them on the table overshadowing the story of every character you've built yourself is not.

Now you're talking, Discourse! I dislike using any unique named characters because... A) There should be too many skirmishes in a galaxy for famous personalities to show up to every one. And .. B) I want to tell my own stories of heroism by unknown but dedicated servicemen.

if dark souls has taught me anything, nobody is immune to falling off the map...... This should apply to primarchs, right?

If I only had one word to discribe this video it would be “Amen”

I also would like to say I feel completely able to be creative making my own custom stuff for my 40k armies. Both my Necrons and Sisters are custom sub factions that I made up.

10:48 Exactly! This is a crazy sci-fi universe, where despite these creatures insane durability, there are terrible fates. Is GW telling me a direct shot from a titans weapon or literally getting tossed into a star wouldn’t kill them?

Great take. I loved SMs, until primaris. Primarchs coming back sux in many of the same ways. The entire WH40K lore was steeped in dark mystery and tradition. Now all the returning primarchs will just fill in all the details and create brand new, super-super-super-duper primarisier marines with alien tech weapons. This information would be disastrous for the imperium and will lead to six-armed marines that shoot lasers out of their eyes.

Here's my this about that - I started playing 40k in 2nd edition and heavily through 3rd edition. So I don't like using Named Characters (known in the day as "Special Characters") for competitive play. One of the biggest things I had to get used to when I returned to playing in 9th edition was that Named Characters had become normalized. Much like Discord, I preferred to create my own Legends and use them on the tabletop. That said, named characters in 40k are here to stay. Re: Primarchs - I don't really care about the lore as I gave up on that a while ago but if you are going to have Primarchs on the table (Mortarion, Magnus, Roboute, and now Angron) then each faction needs to have something equivalent to be able to put on the table. As a lifelong Blood Angels player, it annoys me that the Ultramarines (and the Dark Angels if the rumors are true) can put something that strong on the table and I can't.

I have been following and playing 40K since the beginning of the RT era and I can say for me the story and game got EXTREMELY stale up till about 7 years ago. I love that the story is moving forward and that the primarchs have returned. I love that they are pressing it forward and reignited the story as a beginning as a great crusade 2.0. The beauty of 40K is that there are 40K time periods you can game in. And since the majority of gamers are local. It’s simple if you don’t like prinarchs, don’t use them or play those who do. Easy solution! As far as lore wise I am glad that they are expanding and telling new stories while bring some long old open stories to more of a conclusion.

@davidbowles7281

Жыл бұрын

It would be nice if 40K had rules that supported periods of their history. Pick a setting year and that determines what units you can use, just like a historical game.

I picked up Johnson for a song and a dance.... They suck to play with. These "Primarchs" stand a little taller then a Dred, and basically they are one shot kill-fests. Any more then 1 or two on a fluke, and your game turns into a Mini Apocalypse, where every unit gets one shotted. You spend more time setting up then you do playing the game. Seeing as they are Abominations and tools of Adeptus Mechanicus, they should be put down in short order, and Belisarius Cawl needs to be labeled a Hereticus Excommunicado, hunted down and destroyed as an enemy of the Imperium... "No Pity! No Remorse! No Fear!"

As someone who started in 3rd Ed, when you got round to your point at the end, I completely agree. I actually came here from Kirioth and his silly video, and I wasn't disappointed. You pretty much hit the nail on the head and echoed a comment I made on Valraks in a couple of ways. Well done.

I love them as big ass centerpieces to Armies, I hate that they brought us weird Death Guard vehicles and Primaris marines

This is very dangerous thinking. Next thing you know kids will be learning to scratchbuild and kitbash instead of demanding GW sell them a model.

The gem in this video is one of the missing primarchs getting assimilated and manifesting as some sort of Primarch-adon

Primarchs do not terrorise game tables, at least they do not always dominate. Moreover there are many very unexpected units, that deal with primarchs. Example - death guard zombies, their poxwolkers. With two stratagems they deal with anything, any target just shutter under the rain of mortal wounds.

In the topic of Primarchs pushing the story and you not liking that. Thats an opinion that makes me think of Malifaux, and how the story of malifaux (from what I've heard), moves along from edition to edition. Characters die, get betrayed or allied, and they make it work, it seems.

So often i have to agree with you Discourse. But this time.... you took it way to far! The Primarcs should come back! I appreciate that the bigger Plot/Story of 40k Continues in its timeline. Big Charakters, big fights in mental and physical ways, is exactly what i wish (and i guess many others as well). I understand the point, that people wish, that the state of the lore should stay stagnant. But tbh, i dont see there any problem for them, if it doesnt. If somebody wants to replay certain timelines, a certain state in the History of WH40k, they can do it every time. And people wich are fallowing the Lore are for sure excited (or at least curious) how the Story continues. People who want to be "nostalgic" can also be it, when the plot is continuing... I really dont get the wish to stay stagnant. Yes, i get your argument, that for some people the Imperiums story is not so important, than f.e. those from the Eldar, Orks, Tau or whoever. But Fact is, WH 40k is Based around the Imperium, it is the center core of the hole thing. But the return of Primarchs and the Progression of our holy Emperors Imperiums timeline doesnt mean, that Heretical, ugly xeno worshipping bastards(like you) cant have theyr part of the cake as well. GW still can write Books and build out stories and the World of those bastardic xenos and heretics. (specially nice lorebooks, where imperial forces are purging filthy xenos 😇). Pls note that i wrote this text in my inner Loyalist Charakter. So please dont take some of my dir3ct attacks to you to serious. Also... The holy Inquisition have been informed about your traitorous and heretical way of thinking, expect your live as you knew till now, to be soon changing. 😇😇😇😇 and still, i will continue to watch your content... at least until the inquisition picked you up 😁

I'm loving the wrestle mania style microphone holding. Awesome!

Great video. I like chapter master valrak videos he is probably my most watched KZreadrs but I agree with you there has to be some mystery to the law. What is the end game to the story. If every primarch comes back and a massive battle what happens? Where do we go from there? Do we have a refresh like warhammer fantasy to 40k version of age of sigmar?

I think the core of this issue is that there is a split in the community. Half want the sandbox, the setting, not the story, where it's mostly 'their guys'. And those who engage with the narrative forming, are engaging with 40k the way people engage with Star wars legion or thelord of the rings game. When I think about starting legion I want to have an army of arc troopers and commandos. I want my army to be the guys who punked grevious in Gendy Tarkovsky's 2003 clone wars series. I feel the issue is that 40k's setting and narrative are well enough established that there are people engage with warhammer in the same way. Hell with kill team two of my planned teams are this. My csm legionaires are going to be the pure from The Emperors Spear and my blooded are going to be modeled after mobian 6th from dark tide. There is no wrong way to engage with any warhammer system its just primarch models are great for narrative focused players and painting only types. My only criticism would be other factions need multiple primarch level centre pieces, like how AoS is doing it.

I actually agree with your points you make on the powerlevels

I am honestly waiting for GW to bring out a "rebirthed" version of BA's Sanguinius. I mean, if they can bring back others, while not bird-boy Jebus? And I am sure they would want the $ influx over the lore break.

@raleighjune8952

Жыл бұрын

I think a warp entity Sanguinius would be interesting. An Imperial Greater Demon if you will.

@RoseKindred

Жыл бұрын

@@raleighjune8952 Okay, now that I think about it, I can see how this could be made to work lore-wise. Most likely along the lines of the psychic connection between all the BA marines sent out a pulse of some type. Half enter the Rage and as such are put into stasis/battle but that pulse coalesced with the chaotic energies in the warp and thought made manifest.

@giorgiofenu5563

Жыл бұрын

As a blood angels fanboy i'd honestly hate that, it takes away the tragedy from the chapter's history, like eliminating The Flaw, the Angel is the tradeoff for the Warmaster to keep the imperium-chaos balance somewhat even. The only way i'd see a Sanguinius (and every other primarch, loyalist or traitor) comeback would be in a huge universe-ending event like the WHFB end times

Lore wise I kinda like that Guilliman is back I am far from a ultramarine fanboy but given he is one of the few characters that has been around since the crusade but not chaos or insane dreadnaught Its kinda hilarious to see him bring up many of the imperiums issues in a way that a 40k fan might and even go after the inquisition and ecclesiarchy knowing full well that leading with the emperor's direct blessing means he can make cuts at the state of the imperium at will and no one has the balls to actually accuse him of heresy at least not out loud (although there are many who think it)

I would LOVE primarchs if there was room in the lore for more custom ones. I am a huge fan of having a giant fancy model to lead an army, especially when that model is a sentient person instead of a monster or a robot. However I also don't want my army being led by some dude who already exists in the lore. I basically want space marines to have the equivalent of the new demon prince model for slaves to darkness; a super customizable giant guy with a ton of different options to fit your army's themes and lore.

I think your both right. The system is open enough to accommodate both styles of player, the complete creative and the hero hammer lore fan. Primarchs are cool and strong but expensive. So if your more creative you can still have your custom army with the extra points to handle them which has been the case for some years now since the creation to titanic models or weapons platforms like the Baneblade.

I mean, I think people are losing sight of the core question here. Namely, where's the t-shirt from?

Hello thanks for the video and to share your PoV which I mostly share

Look at Nagash from AOS. He is the god of death, but on the table he is an expensive character with nerfed skills that are easily defeated.

"one of the missing primarchs can be asymilated into the tyranids" - I've been thinking about that idea for a while now.

I just got back from London, and I thought you were talking about the shop Primark.

If they were to return, the Primarchs should return as bureaucratic heads, not as warrior-leaders, because they'll just wind up Dynasty-Warriors-ing every battle they come across, meaning that in both tabletop and the novels, they'll just roll over every enemy they come across, and they need to, because GW sells them as demigods. That would make every faction outside of the Imperium aside from Chaos (which also has Primarchs) pointless, because any book or tabletop match involving a Primarch is an automatic win for the Imperium. The Imperium already has way too much plot armor as it is now; they keep winning despite the fact that they're supposed to be an empire on the decline. Giving them demigod generals would just mean that said winning streak would just increase. But let's be fair here, the fans that want the Primarchs back want that to happen. They think of how cool it'd be to have Primarchs in the lore and the tabletop again, and they don't care about the other factions getting the shit beaten out of them. They're Imperium fans through and through, and having the Primarchs back is obviously their wet dream so they can come back and rip the Imperium's foes apart, be in in the lore or the Tabletop.

Nightwing died from the same injury as in Million Dollar Baby, caught off guard, momentarily stunned

Without that creative aspect to list building, than what differentiates 40k from other IPs where a centralised character leads your army aka Warmachine, Malifaux, Marvel Crisis Protocol?

i did love your idea that the sisters should be the protectors and the marines being the rogue forces

My deep-seated passion is to undermine Games Workshop by ignoring their books and rules entirely. I only buy off e-bay, and I don't play any GW game. I just collect and paint and display the models in my home for my own enjoyment. GW sucks since at least 2008, and I won't directly support their business in any way.

The primarch being assimilated by Tyrannids and coming back as a Tyrannid model isn't a bad idea, unless you spell "bad" as "brilliant". That would be truly epic, if for no other reason than watching the entire Space Marine community detonate while Tyrannid and other Xenos players bathe in their tears.

"Angron were to fall in a large pit of lava" Damn this brings me back on some post on /tg/ asking what would Kevin from home alone do if he was to man the defenses on the siege of Terra and a vital part of it was The clowning of Angron which consisted in just covering the place in banana peels and making the guy slip repeatedly making him angrier and angrier

bring on the primarchs. bring on the apocalypse. burn the imperium to the ground. a forest fire makes room for new growth. thats probably not what gw has in mind.

As a whole primarchs are great, and the issue is being overstated. Their mere existance isn't detrimental to whatever aspect of the hobby you participate in. Yes, space marines, and humanity are the poster boys because GW marketing give them special attention. That's not an issue with primarchs, that's just the reality of marketing. If it weren't Ultramarines we'd be saying the same thing about another faction. Warhammer is a vast enough universe and hobby that even if you despise primarchs you can simply choose not to engage with them. Play other factions that don't include god-like characters. Maybe read other books that aren't about Guilliman. Obviously you can't ignore their impact on the wider universe as a whole, but that sort of story telling still keeps them far in the background and in the past. Even if you play space marines the setting leaves room for custom armies, and lore that you create yourself. The missing primarchs, the splitting of the legions, it's all crafted specifically to allow you to flex your creative muscle in designing whatever you want without having to be forced into premade characters. The other thing is, if space marines are the most popular, they sell the most and that's why so much attention is given to them, why is this considered a problem? I think Space Marines are alright. They're kinda cool, but Tau is where my heart is. But if everyone else likes Space Marines then I accept that I'm the minority and I wouldn't want to take that away from people. Would it be nice to get more Tau lore and media? Yes, but it would be detrimental to the hobby if we frequently focused on these very niche settings that only so many people are even interested in.

Jaghatai Khan is not lame and I'll die on that hill.

I can't say anything about the tabletop game, although I _do_ understand why they might become a problem here. But as a total Wh40k and sci-fi nerd who is also (looking at this other comment) almost 50, I actually think that lore-wise, the return of the Primarchs is actually a good thing. I get it, the lore was what came after the tabletop and was merely created to have some fluff when playing the game. My Astartes [Guardsmen, Tau, Necron, ...] fight the Eldar [Orks, Chaos Marines, Astartes, ...] for reason X, so... For the Emperor! But the lore kind of developed a quite vivid life of its own and I always thought that althoug the setting is perfect for amazing stories, at some point the perpetual gridlock is a _very_ bad thing in terms of storytelling.

the best way to get the barebone answer to whether GW current decisions were a success or not, then is just look at either their success or failure in their profit margin, its as simple as that since, everyone has their own bias online viewpoint here and everyone thinks their view is the majority in the community. More time than not most of them are just in their own echo chambers. So just look at the hard numbers and your know if GW recent decisions are consider good or bad for this Franchise, and honestly that is really how you look at the success of any of these Franchises and if its going the right way.

I’ll be honest, I love the Mortarion model so, for me just in the context of a model it’s fantastic. It also brings in a new narrative, despite Guilliman being all powerful he is still weak in the grand scheme of things. A new Primarch is a big exciting event. As long as they are spaced out they are great peaks of content.

As a Chaos Daemon player, if I may, there are few black library books that provide viewpoint from several viewpoints. For example, Word Bearer Omnibus book 1 has a story from Adeptus Arbite's view where he falls captive, gets overcome by chaos and surprisingly becomes stronger for it. As a player, I would agree with you in never meeting your heroes and let legends lay in their ancestral honor halls. As a hobbyist, I would like to see Primarchs as solely Scenery/Look only figures

As usual, I totally agree. I love having my option shared makes me feel like I am not crazy 😅 for no longer playing or enjoying 40k. I realy miss the creatively of 5th ed 6th-(7th?) . 8th was the start of a decline for my warhammer experience.

Peimarchs are too beloved by the fandom to kill or severely harm in any way. Therefore, whenever they meet antagonisticly, the writing suffers horribly. The literary gymnastics required to declare victory or defeat without killing one of the characters is not enjoyable to read. I don't mind them on the tabletop, but they ruin the story of any book where they meet.

If you want space marines and primarchs, great, we have a game for that called Horus Heresy. Leave 40k out of it.

The way to bring the loyalist primarchs back is to have Abaddon win, exploding the galaxy and creating Warhammer: Age of the Emperor.

Narrative-driven 40k means my Space Marines can never really be led by their homebrew Chapter Master, or if they are he can never be a match for Abaddon in one on one combat. It basically relegates "your guys" to the background of 40k history. They can't change the fate of the Galaxy; they can only react to the changes other, official characters make.

CM Valrak's obsession with the Imperial Fists is is just unheathy, yellow is so horrible to pain very well.

It's funny as the power level argument, even before you called it as such, made me think of the leadup to Dragon Ball Fighterz where so much of the speculation I saw was not about what characters would have a fun or unique gameplay style, or which would be a good representation of the franchise, but rather who was strong enough to deserve to make it in. Thankfully that wasn't as big a deal with the game itself, though it did include a handwave to justify things, but I do feel it kept the game from being as crazy as it could be. I mean, no one was arguing whether a Servbot could really defeat Wolverine in canon and I think Marvel vs. Capcom 2 was still able to sell at least a couple copies. I don't have much interest in any Primarch that isn't named Fulgrim (and sometimes Sanguinius) so I'm actually going to move my thoughts over to the Skaven. On one hand Thanquol is my favorite Warhammer character period and having the option to include him in my army sometimes (if I ever finished building one) would be a huge plus and I absolutely intend to get that mini at some point. However one of the things about the transition from Fantasy to AoS that I think was an unambiguous positive was the change to the clan system. My biggest complaint about the WHFB Skaven was that the Warlord clans were all super generic. In the lore there were some unique ones, like one that used bug monsters but never appeared outside of a couple offhand mentions, but basically each of the major clans had a unique niche and the Warlord clans were just lots and lots of fighty rats. So if I wanted to make my own clan it had to be a fighty clan, I couldn't make my own mad scientist faction or anything. Whereas in AoS they changed the major clans to "types" of clans, so there are now countless mad scientist factions, ninja factions, etc. and the old Warlord clans are their own separate umbrella just like the others. You still have to fit one of the niches, but you can pick your niche which is a huge improvement. So yeah, I guess I ultimately like the featured characters to be an option, but I don't want them to be the default option and they need to build things so that a completely original subfaction is still equally viable.

I can see this issue as being polarizing. I think it really depends on whether you've bonded more with the personalities of the Primarchs or some other aspect of the setting. I personally connected with several of them, and I'd be especially pleased to have Perturabo. But I could see another person feeling like they're sucking up all the oxygen in the room. Now, if your personality makes you more a natural contrarion, if you see the current of the crowd and you find it irritating and unambitious, I could see a person getting *really* up in arms about it. I feel that way about current music. The fact that 50% of 40k is about loyalist Space Marines could make you long for all those stories that aren't being written because the alternative is safer.

GW is slowly moving towards the Rhana Dhandra profesized by the Eldar, so the heroes of old must return for the final battle.

You definitely put into the words the core of my interaction with Warhammer of both flavours over the last ~30 years. Putting established special characters on the table. Painting things exactly as they are out of the box/book, and just taking whatever chapter/craftworld/imperial guard regiment/whatever they offer you and going "sure, I'll play that one" and then following instructions? That's virtually anathema to my own enjoyment. Like you said, I don't think doing it that way is necessarily WRONG at all, it's just not the way I have ever enjoyed interfacing with the game. Start an Eldar army? Welp, time to read up on some Eldar lore, see what kind of interesting tidbits you can expand on, and make your own craftworld or other base of operations for a force. The same with fantasy - figure out where your army is based geographically, figure out who the people are leading it (and that doesn't need to be on the battlefield, just the important characters involved), and use it as an outlet of exploring characters and themes. But no matter if you prefer to play an established canon force or roll your own, them pushing the story forward constantly means that you are always at the risk of your entire army (or army concept) becoming impossible within the story being told. A warhammer army is a seriously long-term investment - no matter how much GW would like us to, it's not something you buy, build and paint over a weekend, play with for a few weeks, and then a new book comes out that makes them utterly non-canon and you just shrug and get another army. An army that you put your soul into creatively lasts for decades. For Fantasy, I've just solved that by time-locking myself in 6th edition or so and screw whatever came after (including the Storm of Chaos). In 40k? I'm not sure... I might want to paint up a new army, but I need to figure out which edition I'm doing, where in the timeline that is, what bases my models need to be on to be correct for _that_ point in the product timeline, and so forth...

Having the Primarchs back is an interesting idea, I can't afford the current models and in a years time the price will have gone up and I'll still be in the same position

Even though i play SM, i agree with the creativity. Since the introduction of Primaris, alot of the visual distinction of alot of my favorite chapters has been sanitized. When Black Templars got the range refresh, i made it a personal mission to go out of my way to make every unit as visually distinct as possible (Tabards, capes, custom Helmets and pauldrons, getting tiny hobby chains to wrap around the models hands, ect) Guard are the next one once im done, and im doing everything in my power to not build Cadians and do something different.

W00t 25k subs!

@DiscourseMinis

Жыл бұрын

🎉

I see your point, i agree with some aspects of your argument and respectfully leave it to wait on a Fulgrim model.

Easy solution, introduce timeliness. That way you can have your sandbox and your story. They're just a part of different timelines.

Primarchs and the evolving setting are honestly the only reason I got into 40k. The setting didn’t appeal to me at all in the early 2000s when I was getting LOTR minis. So....sorry I guess.

@thegreengreenie5879

Жыл бұрын

that's cool; does the horus heresy appeal to you as well even though it's somewhat stagnant? I ask because i had a similar experience

I really liked making my own space marines. Primarchs have some fun stories but are mostly overhyped even though I made a video about them. Not sure what that says about me as a cat lol

I'm thinking you need a mic stand for these standing up sessions.

@DiscourseMinis

Жыл бұрын

i like bein' mobile :d

@shauntaylor9251

Жыл бұрын

@@DiscourseMinis It makes for annoying viewing

@nicofolkersma2535

Жыл бұрын

@@DiscourseMinis That's why you need a mikestand. So you can be mobile with 2 hands.

I remember when the lion was the only primarch alive. Is status and not able to do anything thiugh

Discourse is a "youtuber"? I thought Discourse is a "Warhammer". I like the Rogue Trader Space Marines; tough thugs, drinking in a bar, in their power armour.

Speaking of broken characters...2nd edition,Exarch with Displacer Field, Swooping Hawk wings, plasma grenades and a Fire Pike. Stealth and Rapid Fire Abilities. Meet.Dragon-Hawk the Absurd. 36" move that ignored terrainr. Minus 3 penalty for models shooting at him. Shoots twice with Melta. Plasma Grenades were area effect that persisted.

I'd say that the overwhelming focus on space marines and chaos are the main problems with 40k lore, including the primarchs. Personally I would love to get my hands on some of the primarch models though, they would make excellent bases for my Eldar guardians to walk over (after being properly slices by shurikens of course). I might even make that the way to tell the different squads apart. I think 40k would do better with other things to focus on. One exciting period that they could explore is the War in Heaven which is painfully overlooked. Another could be all the little mini empires that formed and fell before the great crusade, there should be hundreds of human empires with their own technology, lore and aesthetics that would make for an excellent setting as well.

@markwatson8714

Жыл бұрын

Yup. It's one of the reasons I quit 40K back in 3rd edition. Seemed like every other codex was some new flavour of space marine. Didn't help that they were the dullest army to fight, and despite the plethora of variants it was still a struggle to tell them apart beyond the colour scheme.