Freeman Dyson - My theory on the origin of life (142/157)
Ғылым және технология
To listen to more of Freeman Dyson’s stories, go to the playlist: • Freeman Dyson (Scientist)
Freeman Dyson (1923-2020), who was born in England, moved to Cornell University after graduating from Cambridge University with a BA in Mathematics. He subsequently became a professor and worked on nuclear reactors, solid state physics, ferromagnetism, astrophysics and biology. He published several books and, among other honours, was awarded the Heineman Prize and the Royal Society's Hughes Medal. [Listener: Sam Schweber; date recorded: 1998]
TRANSCRIPT: So I consider a sort of, a cell, which is a little bag with molecules inside, so I'm looking at little populations of molecules, and they're going to be able to grow by absorbing stuff from the outside, and then from time to time simply fission; just, the cell will divide into two either because of some surface instability or because it's chopped up by rainstorms or something, so by natural processes the drops divide and then continue to grow and then divide and continue to grow. But there's no replication in the proper sense, there's no exact copying, merely the population just randomly accumulates. And the question is then, could there be an evolution of droplets of this kind without replication, and I think the answer is yes. So that's the model that I have in mind. So it's a system that has the attribute of metabolism; that is, a living process that brings in molecules from the outside.
[SS] These would be primarily proteins rather than...
Nucleic acids. Yes. I mean it's probably neither, it's probably a much more heterogeneous mixture. But anyway, things that eventually evolve into proteins. But the point is that you don't need to have a very low error rate for this to work. So you imagine that the population of molecules has a certain tendency to catalyse its own reproduction, but I make the distinction between reproduction and replication. So you reproduce a population approximately, but you don't replicate the individual molecules. So the population is reproduced by catalysis, by... because the molecules themselves catalyse other molecules to be reproduced, so the population as a whole is being reproduced with a very high error rate, and nevertheless it evolves. And... so you can actually then... I made a little mathematical model of this, and it turned out it did very nicely. There's a certain natural... it's a purely mathematical exercise but it sets a natural scale for the population that... which comes only from natural constants, not constants of physics but constants of mathematics. And it... I mean it goes with essentially the fact that e4 - e is the exponential, is 54, which is sort of a reasonable number, and the quality factor for the catalyst has to be at least that good. So there's a natural sort of lower limit on the quality of the catalysts, but that's a very easy limit. 54 is pretty low, because even poor catalysts easily achieve a factor of 100. Biological catalysts, proteins, have quality factors like 104, or 10,000 or higher. So you don't need the modern very efficient proteins to make this work. If you have these very poor catalysts, it turns out that the thing actually can lift itself up statistically by its boot straps and you get an evolution toward better quality. And it turns out that the error rate at this saddle point where you change over from disorder to order is 1/3, which is very satisfactory. So you're dealing with... really with messy mixtures of molecules, which is what you expect at the early stages, so it's totally different from the picture you have with the replicating system where you need error rates like 1 in 1000. So it's a totally unorthodox view but I think it could in fact be right. So I wrote this little book called Origins of Life expounding this point of view and it had an interesting history because it's been totally ignored by biologists and it's been welcomed by physicists and by all kinds of other readers, sort of generally non-expert readers, but made a case which is convincing to everybody except the experts, which is quite normal for revolutionary ideas. I have a... I know my son, George, who is one of my honest critics, says, 'This is what you're going to be remembered for, not the physics', and maybe he's right. Anyhow, I'm happy to say that this book is now going into a 2nd edition, that the Cambridge Press who published it 12 years ago finds there's enough demand, so they're going to publish a new edition next year, and I'm rewriting it for the second edition, putting in some more modern information. So by and large I would say that the experiments are still completely neutral, they... there's no evidence one way or the other whether replication came first or whether metabolism came first, it's still an open question. [...]
Read the full transcript at www.webofstories.com/play/free...
Пікірлер: 172
He was a great scientist. RIP Freeman Dyson
@johnshilling2221
4 жыл бұрын
Although I can't accept his veiw on the origin of life, everything else about him is worthy of emulation. If I had 10% of his clarity of thought along with the ability to articulate those thoughts, stirred in with a little ambition, "I could take over the world, Pinky"
@Atanu
2 жыл бұрын
@Noel dela Torre Not just a great scientist, his vacuum cleaners are amazing (even though they are overpriced.) Truly a man of many talents.
@noeldelatorre369
2 жыл бұрын
@@Atanu it's James Dyson not him
@Atanu
2 жыл бұрын
@@noeldelatorre369 It's a joke. Freeman Dyson was only a physicist -- my favorite even ahead of Feynman. In one of his interviews he even mentions the funny mails he would occasionally get complaining about vacuum cleaners. He replied very good-naturedly that they got the wrong Dyson.
All I know is that this guy revolutionized vacuum cleaners. Thank you sir.
@Atanu
4 жыл бұрын
This is a most under-rated comment. Someone give the man a prize 😀
@stanleycates1972
4 жыл бұрын
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
@SardonicALLY
4 жыл бұрын
@@sugerbill1936 He may have been joking... wink wink
@dylanharding6859
4 жыл бұрын
Your comment sucks.
@vinodchauhan3949
4 жыл бұрын
He introduced concept of dyson sphere You can look it up
‘In any case, I don’t care’ best line.
Dyson will be remembered for the Dyson sphere. He can't help it.
Some men are indispensable, Freeman is on that short list !
The 2nd law of thermodynamics is simply a statistical eventuality; so Freeman's argument is absolutely reasonable.
Isaac Asimov said something similar along those lines, but restricting it to the "assembly" of the hemoglobin molecule. After mathematically demonstrating the impossibility of such a molecule coming together, he said, "Nevertheless, it did." Just like you just said.
So rain invented humanity... That explains absolutely everything!
i dont know what i can hear more the heavy breathing or freeman dyson talking
I think Freeman is probably going to end up being right - a non-expert coming in from a physics and math point of view, who happened to notice how everything that happens in nature tends to be as simple as possible, only later leading to complex high level phenomena.
@aniksamiurrahman6365
4 жыл бұрын
I'm a Biochemist and I really don't agree with the RNA world hypothesis. For once RNA is a very unstable molecule. When a population of those unstable molecules is in competition with each other for replication, their size shrinks to ~200 nucleotides. I don't think it's possible for a gene to evolve from such a small size. Not to mention a little change in temperature, a little decrease in pH can massacre the whole party.
@gerardjones7881
4 жыл бұрын
@@aniksamiurrahman6365 A little decrease in temps and PH can end the human race too, but we persist. Proto life evolved first by self assembly, the phenomena is already observed. You're wasting your time if you try to prove the impossibility of what you believe cannot be. Like the atheist trying to prove the non existence of God.
@aniksamiurrahman6365
4 жыл бұрын
@@gerardjones7881 No, it can't and that isn't observed. I suggest u to study some basic Biochemistry or delete the comment.
@dirkdugan
4 жыл бұрын
@@gerardjones7881 Yeah, it's definitely not clear from anything I've seen that it first evolved in the way you're stating. Also, it kind of just pushes back the question. If you want to talk about spontaneous self assembly, you have a lot of work cut out for yourself. Like just about everything else in nature, it shouldn't be just totally random, but developed by steady iterative processes like the one Freeman suggested.
@coffeefish
4 жыл бұрын
There were lots of very large holes in his hypothesis. It's a fun thought exercise, but life is so very much more complicated than "bags of molecules being split by raindrops."
I like this guy!
I think Freeman Dyson always thought physics and biology more like an Engineer, rather than a typical physicist or a biologist. So he always has a different and unique way of thinking. Which is very interesting.
I just discovered this man through Marvin Minsky (who I also discovered today). This video alone makes me want to study physics and biology. Why has nobody shown this to me when I was 13.
@philsmith7398
5 жыл бұрын
Once you have some basic physics and biology under your belt I'd definitely recommend some biochemistry as a beautiful overlap. I did a Bachelor's degree in it and it answered so many questions. The origin of life is much further solved than this video suggests. Try reading Nick Lane as a primer until you're more confident of the science. But keep going! I have learned so much since leaving school, just try not to run before you can walk! Good luck, there is a beautiful story out there!
@aniksamiurrahman6365
4 жыл бұрын
How are u now?
@hmmob3956
4 жыл бұрын
It's never too late.
@johnshilling2221
4 жыл бұрын
PhD, Dr James Tour.. biochemist. Qualified to comment on this subject. I'm not impressed by many scientists, but this guy is impressive.
@johnshilling2221
4 жыл бұрын
@@philsmith7398 have you discovered any mechanism, real or imagined, that can lead to an increase in information, as the result of a mutation?
Today it is possible to calculate how the vacuum quantum fluctuation look like. What if it is possible to scale up that and try to find out if there is standing waves or structures on larger scales of that?
catalysis certainly is a promising path to pursue concerning the origins of life.
@johnshilling2221
4 жыл бұрын
BLUEGENE13, spend some time watching PhD, James Tour's videos, then come back with that comment.
I will remember him as the man that invented the superstructure in “Relics” -TNG S:6 E:4
I think that the idea of Freeman Dyson maybe right for what concerns evolution before the existence of super molecules like DNA or RNA, both being responsible for a more correct form of replication! Usually biologists start seeing evolution and selection after the existence of these large super molecules. We could say that biology starts here! Of coarse there had to be a very important chemical and catalytical evolution to create replicating units of life ( like droplets) long before super molecules like DNA or RNA existed and took over a much much more accurate way of duplication.
grazie
on the question of replication vs metabolism, that's just a silly semantic question. Freeman is probably right that metabolism came first because how could replication ever happen without metabolism, complete nucleic acids would just have to be floating around ready to replicate or something
He’s right.
Da da da da ....... pure genius
Then why hasn’t this been experimentally demonstrated?
It’s true what he is saying Evolution only needs a few correct ingredients to start and grow. The same with the big bang and the beginning of our universe
So many accidents of chemistry aren't required, matter can and will self assemble. The underlying information is driving it. It can be observed in the video "nature by numbers". The mechanism is very simple. Biology might be complex but nature itself is very simple and elegant. If life was wiped out it would regenerate from nothing but inert matter.
Take into consideration that the atmosphere was totally different, and the land masses on earth, few.
Yes, but if this was the case, I would think the process would be continuing today. However, the chemical constituents probably still exist today, but their concentrations probably don't.
Deepak Chopra claims Freeman Dyson said atoms have consciousness
@zahsum
5 жыл бұрын
That's what I came to find out lol
@ishmaelsali2634
5 жыл бұрын
he did through because how they able to all come together to form a object. it's online.
@dbmail545
4 жыл бұрын
Deepak Chopra also thinks that temperature affects atomic decay.
@wendigo017
4 жыл бұрын
Deepak Chopra is an absolute clown. He literally makes claims about some quantum stuff he can't back up with any evidence at all.
@suivzmoi
4 жыл бұрын
haven't met a science educated person who is impressed by Deepak's woo woo
When you realise you need to tell your teacher why you didnt do your homework.
Lol...all the comments about vacuum cleaners. You’ve got the wrong Dyson. James Dyson is the inventor of the Dyson vacuum cleaners. Not Freeman Dyson.
@tomgreene6579
4 жыл бұрын
A sign of the times!!
@faybrianhernandez2416
4 жыл бұрын
They are jokes
@Atanu
2 жыл бұрын
@@faybrianhernandez2416 It's the most natural joke -- considering that Freeman Dyson could never be seriously mistaken as the maker of Dyson vacuum cleaners.
It's a good theory. Most of it seems like it has to be right. Except, idk about the globules part. I bet the first proto-biotic molecules were confined in wet sand or clay. It seems like a cell wall analogue (maybe just foam) had to come later, as an accidentally useful product of a primitive, pre-existing, pre-biotic metabolism. Then it's off to the races.
First waves/particles have to come together all the way up to single cell creatures and so on. It started with fields and waves
Interviewer had covid 4 years ago
I would like to ask Prof. Dyson something regarding his work with the RAF in WWII. During the First World War, some RFC aircraft were fitted with a weapon on a (Foster) mounting that allowed the pilot to fire the Lewis gun almost vertically. This they employed when attacking German Gotha bombers by flying below them and shooting upwards. The Germans rapidly adapted a gun position in the fuselage floor to counter this tactic. Was this not thought about at all by his department in WWII? If someone had known this and thought about in 1940s terms, perhaps Schraeger Musik would have been rumbled earlier, and many, many lives saved.
@firstal3799
6 жыл бұрын
You gave to first become his friend for tha
We will never know how or why, but that is irrelevant
Mutations.
Metabolism to information-based replication is a hurdle of astronomically proportions. Protein enzymes increase rates to 10^9 to 11th. Life requires responsiveness to changes in environment. Information error rates must be extremely low to permit evolution to work on breeding populations. Current prokaryote error rates are still in the 1 part in millions, and prokaryotes 1 in a billion. But RNA is a very unstable molecule for heredity.
We lost him
Great scientist... alot of assumptions
Sounds like a LOT of handwaving...
At the end, I don't believe him... he cares (some).
If his reductionism is true, there ougth to have NON Carbon based life as well which might like cyborgs and altogether different from us. Well it is exciting but we haven't met such beings ever.
@michalkacko4408
5 жыл бұрын
R S well its not like we have been very far from our sun
How close does the interviewer need the mike to his face i hear is lung airways moving, and the dam cough, wheezing, nose sounds jesus is interviewer sick with droplets.... i think the physicist is better shape then interviewer
@egenestarr1986
4 жыл бұрын
Social Justice Warrior lol no doubt but a little over the top
@troglodyto
4 жыл бұрын
these comments have me laughing so hard. physics asmr xDDD hahahah
@danielrobb981
3 жыл бұрын
Who the fuck is Mike? Some bloke from Hull with a bald head and goatee, looking like he's just walked off the set of The Office
@hadeseye2297
3 жыл бұрын
I hear how his nose hair affects the sound. Can't you?
If this theory were accurate, then why wouldn't we see multiple origins of life, rather than all life arising from the same genetic origin. Shouldn't we find these non-DNA globules floating around in bodies of water today? Do we?
@castellar96
7 жыл бұрын
No, because an organism capable of replication like the organisms we see today would have outcompeted the non-DNA globules. They would make use of a very similar resource pool of organic molecules. A replicating organism that has a well designed metabolic system would be capable of transmitting the plan for this metabolc system near perfectly to its descendants, while these non-DNA globules are not capable of the same feat. Them being outcompeted and essentially dissappearing would be especially true over an extremely long period of time. This is at least how I see it. Also, I wouldn't discard the option that life like this still exists. The planet is large and it might be hard to detect if you are not actively looking for it.
@davidusa47
7 жыл бұрын
Right, I think if we looked for it, it should still be present. And perhaps we do see non-DNA lipid membranes forming in aqueous solutions, but I doubt it, since he didn't mention it in this video.
@maxdecphoenix
7 жыл бұрын
By what are you assuming the resources for Non-DNA globules were around to form in the first place? Neil Tyson was talking about this not long ago at some lecture, where he said he could envision finding non-carbon based, dna life-forms, but didn't expect we ever would, simply due to the fact that carbon, hydrogen, the building blocks of life on earth, aren't special in any way and are among the most common elements in the universe.
@castellar96
7 жыл бұрын
The non-DNA globules would still make use of organic molecules, that being molecules containing mostly carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. The point Dyson is making, is not whether life arose from some other basis than organic molecules but if there were two distinct events in the evolution of DNA-based life: one being the formation of self-sustaining globules, two being the infection by DNA and subsequent fusion of DNA with the globules. Regarding life on another basis than carbon, Cairns-smith has an interesting theory that is related: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith He is also mentioned in Dyson's excellent book: Origins of life
@davesmith3289
7 жыл бұрын
The answer is yes, we do find non-DNA globules floating around. They're rather common and are known as 'micelles'.
He has a scientific mind but he still relies on false theories of evolution. Read Universal Model by Dean Sessions where empirical evidence is used instead of theory . What a difference provable evidence is instead of the guessing game per theory.
This is a theory once you have life. It doesn’t deal with where that original life came from
@SardonicALLY
10 ай бұрын
It absolutely does explain a theory of the origin of life. I'm not saying it is correct, but it is feasible. He is basically saying that a very primitive chemistry aped the basic function of a pseudo-cell like structure. Components were held together by some chemical action in the environment. Then that cell was acted upon by the environment which caused it to split into ''sister'' parts (so the parent is gone and the next generation are sisters to the parent cell). The split doesn't copy the former cell, so allows for iteration and change with enough viability for the process to continue generationally. Over a long enough timeline the iteration resulted in divergent attributes and some forms of sister cell drifted towards greater survivability, and/or other greater characteristics that promoted their flourishing. Eventually one line of the sister group found a way to replicate rather than just randomly split into sister cells. It is chemical evolution without strict replication, just division and change.
Dr Dyson is a brilliant man, but I do not find his arguments for the origins of life to be compelling. TBH I don't find any explanations compelling yet.
But with cell replication you have an antropic postulate refraction! Your baseline cathalisis is at a very high rate. So under quasi superposition you have a greater risk for self absorbsition distillate far greater than the bar Fenyman or Rose once stressed based on e'2y=(14-'''_6:7-) Am I the only one who comprehended the yields for such a rough and unfetted composition? Dyson misses the point completely and Plank would have laughed out loud. Anyhow as basic as it is surely you get the picture.
@twirlipofthemists3201
6 жыл бұрын
Bad troll, no spell check.
stop coughing!
are there still fish walking out of the ocean today?
@L4Z3RF4C3
7 жыл бұрын
When the first fish exited the ocean it had a big advantage because it was alone on land with a bunch of plants to eat and no predators, thus it propagated. The land is pretty competitive for food sources nowadays so even if a fish mutated to have legs it wouldn't exactly be easier for it to thrive making short trips to land as fish once did. It would be far better off staying in the ocean where it has been fine tuned to compete.
@stacy4422
7 жыл бұрын
and where are all the mutating live now? it should still be going on!
@-taz-
6 жыл бұрын
Tadpoles?
@MICKEYISLOWD
6 жыл бұрын
It is still going on but people like you don't understand the time scales involved in evolution. If you have children then they resemble you but are different right. Well in a few million yrs it probably wont be humans on the planet but it will be what ever humans become and us today will be regarded as distant ancestors.
@MICKEYISLOWD
6 жыл бұрын
There are thousands of missing link fossils but nobody goes to the natural history museums to look at them...lol
Did Dyson believed in God?
@peterlatourette3547
9 ай бұрын
Yes, Christian
I would hope his discoveries in physics are more solid than this one.
@aniksamiurrahman6365
4 жыл бұрын
What wrong with this one?
@SardonicALLY
10 ай бұрын
@@aniksamiurrahman6365 Exactly, Mr Dyson's theory is infinitely simpler and easier to get going than any prevailing theory in the biologists orthodoxy.
@aniksamiurrahman6365
10 ай бұрын
@@SardonicALLY Did you ever read Mr. Dyson's theory? His "Origins of life" is my all time favorite. But its not easier. Rather its more abstract, and far more harder. And to this date there's yet not experimental or paleontological evidence supporting his scheme either. However it inspired "Metabolism First" hypothesis and that has bore many fruit. Particularly, despite a strong support for RNA world hypothesis (which is actually the simplest origin or life hypothesis) its now pretty clear that all of metabolism, protein, lipid and RNA has to coexist for life to come to be.
Would have been nice if the interviewer in these videos would have had the professionalism to blow his nose and gargle some mouthwash before he sat down. It would have saved us having to listen to his snotting and hacking every time he opened his mouth.
@firstal3799
6 жыл бұрын
Maybe he has pneumonia
@adamdebesai
6 жыл бұрын
I found his noises pleasant and relaxing.
@dougr.2398
5 жыл бұрын
Focus on what is being said, not trivial distractions
@Quiintus7
5 жыл бұрын
LOL@@adamdebesai
No
The late Freeman Dyson was a good mathematician and physicist but origin of life is a physics, chemistry, biochemistry and genetics endeavour. However he was right about the beginning. Coacervates, rock pore contents, liposomes, micelles, proteasomes and aerosols all converged by physicochemical mixing by tides, waves, rains and wet dry cycles of concentration into the first protocells. Too complex to outline here.
RNA as a scientific tool is borne out by the coronovirus success from the Chinese "math" labs.
complete nonsense
@philbyd
4 жыл бұрын
sychrovsky so what do you think happened
Any attempt to explain the origin of life as some sort of "natural" process invariably fails. If new life forms were capable of arising spontaneously we'd expect to see such new forms arising continuously throughout history, but of course we don't. As should be clear, the origin of life must have involved some highly improbable process, not likely to ever be repeated -- in a lab or anywhere else. By the same token the notion that we can expect to find life on planets similar to ours (the right atmosphere, the right amount of water, etc.) is almost certainly in error. If life could so readily arise in environments similar to ours, it would be arising over and over again right here on Earth, time after time, but of course that is not the case.
@produccionesmbj6914
4 жыл бұрын
But the enviroment is not the same today as it was in the primitive Earth. If any simple "life-form" were creating today, a more complex and advanced life form (like a fish) could destroy it by eating it or by another means.
@kellensarien9039
4 жыл бұрын
@@produccionesmbj6914 Correct. Chemical evolution needs a very long time to happen without anything else absorbing or eating it. Also, the earth's atmosphere back then had little or no oxygen. All life today either has to hide from oxygen or possess systems to detoxify its highly oxidative (and destructive) forms. Any complex molecules today that were not eaten or absorbed by organisms would be quickly destroyed by oxidation.
When a physicist talks about biology, he underestimates the complexity of a biological systems. . A cell is NOT a “bag” filled with “stuff” and a human being is not a sphere, lol. I have great a respect for the Physics of Dyson but I don’t believe that he is qualified to talk about biology or life.
Basically he hasn't a clue
um no...this is sheer imagination going now where fast,...there is something about any membrane which more sooner than later will POP% because of low length ultraviolet light, which means there is no time or chance for anything to get itself going, much less a self replicating cell. these "certain grouping of molecules" he is speaking of ....DO WE SEE ANY SUCH MOLECULES THINGAMAGIG THING ANYWHERE TODAY? hello......anybody home?
When scientists got rid of God, they had to find a theory to explain life. Molecules ... probably... probably... evolves...maybe ... I don't care... such language. Now let them produce one cell in the laboratory.
@aqilshamil9633
2 жыл бұрын
Theistic worship hungry deficient dog certainly don't exist , just like fabricated satan don't exist
@aqilshamil9633
2 жыл бұрын
GOD NOT DEFICIENT DEITY
Oh dear. Ignored by biologists for good reason after listening to this. It reminds me of Hoyle and Wickramasinghe getting equally confused about biology and evolution. Contradicting experts usually means you're just plain wrong. I do wish mathematicians, physicists and astronomers would give biologists the courtesy of some basic homework before pontificating.
@EGarrett01
5 жыл бұрын
You didn't say a single substantive thing in your entire post. Which makes you sound highly suspect and weak-minded. The exact type of person who disregards theories for dubious tradition-based reasons and looks like an idiot generations later.
@philsmith7398
5 жыл бұрын
@@EGarrett01. Calm down dear, this is just the "comment" section, not the "explain everything in infinite detail so EGarrett01 can get his little brain round it" section! I'm a post-grad Biochemist with a special interest in the origin of life so I know what I'm talking about. More than this guy...and probably you.
@EGarrett01
5 жыл бұрын
Nope. I knew you were a "post-grad." Exactly the type of person who just finished a multi-year process of being fed large amounts of information that you then had to repeat back without questioning or analysis. Academia distorts our ability to recognize correct new ideas because it creates improper emotional associations with correctness. That's why you simply DECLARED that it was a joke and cited academic titles without going to the key points of error. Did you know that the great innovations in sciences are made outside of the academic process, almost uniformly?
@philsmith7398
5 жыл бұрын
@@EGarrett01. *groan* more baby babble?
@EGarrett01
5 жыл бұрын
Yup, you can't put forth any argument nor respond to what I said. Your studies killed your brain, they didn't help it.