My dad would have loved this video, we owned both a commadore 64 and an Atari 800 at home in the 80's. My dad was a computer nut and he worked for company called digital computers here in Ohio, throughout my younger life until they went out of business. I went to a technical school called ITT Tech through his incuragement and I now work in Telecommunications field in my adult life and I like building gaming computers as a hobby now on the side and I even sell a few. My dad taught me a lot about fixing hardware and doing board-level repairs, I was lucky growing up in the 80's and 90's and having him as a father. RIP pop you are missed!

@commentingpausedtoprotectus

7 ай бұрын

❤🥹

@josephcronin2965

2 ай бұрын

ok so what were your thoughts on the agon system?

Thanks for the opportunity to join in the discussion, a great introduction to the Console8 and the Agon concept. It's been a pleasure to work on this project with the team, and it's a personal wow moment for me to see it grow from being a bit of banter between myself, Bernado, and Andy Toone, via a more-or-less solo software project, to this, with tens of developers and hundreds of users. Onwards and upwards!

As much as I respect the 8-Bit Guy's Commander 16 project, this thing is so much more accessible and well thought out. Yes it's nice to have one person's idea of what their dream 'modern-retro' computer will be but in making it a reality, financially speaking, it isn't feasible and thus has priced itself out of the potential market and will likely forever be a niche project unless sold in great numbers. Even then it's going to take a lot of sales to even think of making cost-reduced versions. I certainly won't be laying down hundreds on something that will likely only have a handful of programs ever made for it. Of course I wish him luck but I can see it being a dead-end product in the next year or two. At just over 100 quid, this Agon is a real nice piece of hardware for the money. Hell it's like a retro Raspberry Pi. Not much more expensive either. So much more accessible to anyone not just programmers but even just people who want a bit of 80s style computing fun. Well done. I might just bite if I see this being adopted with lots of support.

@chrisainsley3533

7 ай бұрын

I like both projects but clearly the Agon is the more elegant solution from a hardware perspective, and ironically free of the FPGA's that project was at one point allergic to but has now embraced. Once you go FPGA you might as well go microcontroller for your support chips. Anyway - I love the aesthetic of the Commander X 16, I like David's channel, and not a huge fan of the animosity shown to that project. I think anyone creating something should be applauded. I think that a full FPGA implementation of the hardware could bring it down below $100 one day. Let's be happy that we have an embarrassment of riches of neo-retro-8-bit computers and I for one wish both projects and their communities well.

@root42

7 ай бұрын

@@chrisainsley3533Agreed. From a retro-standpoint the X16 would interest me more. From a TEACHING perspective I think the Aegon is better suited. Neither machines interest me personally, though. The Aegon is a bit like a boiled down Raspberry Pi -- MUCH simpler architecture. Truly to make you UNDERSTAND the hardware. It is a bit the true spiritual successor to the BBC Micro, where the Pi is the MODERN successor to bring you MODERN software but a complex hardware and system. The X16 is more to have the nostalgic feel of all DIP ICs, and basically a souped up Commodore system. All those systems have VERY different audiences. I will stick with my vintage Commodore machines... ;^)

@customsongmaker

7 ай бұрын

In the end, the software will determine how useful the machine is. It doesn't matter which is better, only which has better games. I think the X16 will have the more active community making games.

@werpu12

7 ай бұрын

I would not really say this is an 8 bit computer, given that the display processing is done on a computer 32 bit Risc-V processor, but neat project nevertheless!

@root42

7 ай бұрын

@@werpu12to be fair, the video chips back in the day also packed a bigger punch than the CPU albeit with fixed functionality. The issue today is: there are no more CRTCs available. So you can either take a modern embedded GPU, an expensive FPGA or a cheap RISC CPU to implement your own CRTC.

Not for me personally, but it's awesome to see all the things popping up from the collabs between the Cave, Heber and the community. You guys are smashing this retro thing out the park.

This is a GENIUS level project! I cut my teeth in the 1970's programming in Fortran and Forth working in laboratory instrumentation. I will definitely buy one of these soon. In fact I have a very specific rather exciting (to me) educational application in mind for this (I am also a fully qualified science teacher). The one add-on / enhancement that would be essential for me would be the addition of basic ethernet capability - nothing fancy just a standard RJ45 port with the required support hardware. That would expand the possibilities for this little gem by a whole order of magnitude.

Constrained systems give you a framework for your imagination, and a clear indicator of when to stop... when you run out of memory!

@nickwallette6201

7 ай бұрын

I think this is one of the things that modern community-built micros really misses. Systems with tons of memory, VGA-quality graphics, AWE32/GUS-quality audio, and GBs of storage... are just not very interesting. We have plenty of options for that, and it causes a few problems: First, when there's no practical upper limit on CPU time, memory, graphics, and/or audio, it sets up a disparity between beginning coders and really talented developers and artists. This can be a little bit daunting to newcomers, when comparing their own projects to demos available. But it also means there's a huge delta in the software that's available. You don't know what to expect when you're downloading something -- is it going to be Atari-era, NES-era, or PlayStation 1-era? There's a lot of potential for unmet expectations. Lastly, since there are so many platforms that can match or exceed the capabilities of this, what is the incentive for developers to spend the time required to take full advantage of the hardware? It has to have a user base to make it worth the time to generate assets and code that really show off the strengths, and that user base won't exist without something unique to draw them in. What does this offer that a Command X16 or DOSBox or any of the Pi-based dev platforms don't? Far be it from me to deter anyone from building something, but .. IMO, it would be better for the community to have fewer of these mega-micros available, so that any ONE or TWO of them has a chance to succeed, instead of fragmenting an already niche community. Just my 2c.

@amcadam26

7 ай бұрын

​@@nickwallette6201exactly! This is why i can throw 4 cores and a good gpu at the latest fifa game and it still goes choppy on cutscsenes. Lazy programming.

@Hugh_Jurrection

Ай бұрын

necessity is the mother of creation. In many ways, the limited space really pushes developers to be creative, which is a great way for young programmers to get involved and develop

@WhatHoSnorkers

Ай бұрын

@@Hugh_Jurrection Absolutely this! Infinite resources make things easy... and where's the fun in that?

Q: Who is this for? A: Middle-aged nerds Q: Is this a problem? A: Nope, not really.

Congratulations to the Team! What a beast you created Bernardo, it's marvelous. Thank you all. This computer has left behind, by far, the rest of the new 8 bit coumputers (X16, Next, etc). There's so much power and flexibility. When I can have one I'll try to make something like the game I enjoyed most on the TI 99/4A, Parsec.

A device like this has made me not only want it, but motivated me to get it, no matter what. It makes me think back to the days when I would make my Dragon 64 do things that blew MY mind. I need it to give me that kick again. I am most certainly going to do everything in my power to get it, regardless of the awful exchange rate my country has. This is something that is just too good to miss out on.

glad you liked my Draegerman! As the maps are random procedurally generated occasionally the granite can encompass miners. yes i could fix that but rather leave it in as a life lesson that not everyone can get saved in this world😂

I’m only just turning 25, but I would love one of these. I’ve always been obsessed with retro gaming and hardware, so I’d want to get one of these to finally write my own games and maybe even software and, potentially, help with adding instructions ands possibly an operating system for this thing. Should be a lot of fun!

@cryptocsguy9282

7 ай бұрын

@EpicEmberOriginal Glad i'm not the only 25 year old who wants this and for the same reasons 😊

Here are some demos since making this video and how to order: Lemmings kzread.info/dash/bejne/p3iol7GocZiWqdo.htmlsi=7GNRykDQ-v2taLLf Elite kzread.info/dash/bejne/iq1l0dmblcnYcqg.htmlfeature=shared You can order at shop.heber.co.uk/agon-console8-with-black-enclosure/ 500 are arriving towards the end of the year, so ample supply incoming for anyone interested in playing with this project. Thank you everyone who bought the first batch up so quickly, I can't wait to see what people do with theirs! Thanks for watching! Neil

This is absolutely aimed at me. Had a BBC micro back in the early 80s and an Amiga later on. Studied Microelectronics and worked in the industry before getting into retro computing all over again. The made my own machines from old 8 bit CPUs and old display processors, writing all the software and firmware myself. I would love to see what I can get working on this and see how we can push it. Pre-ordered so I'll have to wait till December unfortunately. I can't wait!

Looks interesting 👍 It all comes down to building a lasting community that remains active. I think even the large projects like Spectrum Next and MEGA65 are struggling to maintain active communities whereas the original 8 bit computers like ZX Spectrum, C64 and CPC are thriving with new high quality releases almost every week plus lots of emulators, documentation, tutorials and development tools.

@AndrewHelgeCox

7 ай бұрын

A die-shrunk CPC with a turbo/compatible rocker and modern peripheral support would be bangin

@TheStuffMade

7 ай бұрын

@@AndrewHelgeCox There is a bare metal CPC emulator for Raspberry PI 3(+), that will allow you to use USB keyboards and controllers, plus you get HDMI out. And of course you could run it on MisterFPGA, but it's quite expensive.

@gabor222

9 күн бұрын

The good thing about the Spectrum Next and the Mega65 is that even if their community would disappear the machines would still function as ZX Spectrums and C64s with modern features and could use that huge software library. Projects with no backwards compatibility are those really struggle when their community becomes inactive.

I ordered my Agon today from the UK. We didn't use BBC BASIC much here in the US, but I am going to learn it at 57 years old. I started out in the 1980's usinga TI994/A. In 1986 as a young man in the Air Force I bought a Commodore 128. I eventually bought an Amiga 500. I am looking forward to having some fun with the Agon.

I feel the Console8 represents the high water mark for retro-like computing on modern hardware. This thing actually delivers without being a monstrosity from size and complexity perspective. Well done and kudos to the team!

@paulscottrobson

7 ай бұрын

And it's beer money - well almost. You can buy one just to see. Most of the other machines are 3 figure expenditures, or not easily available.

@ParallelSyntax

7 ай бұрын

Exactly this. And great value too for what it is.

To be honest, I don't understand the need for these over a RasperryPi. To me, the point of 8-bits for me is the software libraries or working within the limitations of original hardware. Still it's something fun to watch a video about, even though the hardware is not for me...

@archibaldbuttle7

7 ай бұрын

A Raspberry Pi is a fine machine, however even the original Pi it is several orders of magnitude more complex a system than a Console8 (or Agon Light) is. I bought my kids Pis when they were young; they learnt almost nothing about computing from those Pi-based computers, as the Linux-based system was impenetrable to them. I wish I could have bought them a Console8, as it's a much more suitable machine for learning.

@mwaddams

7 ай бұрын

It's the challenge. A PI is a like Ferrari compared to Agon's Robin Reliant :)

It would be nice to have games distributed on physical media with nice packaging and cover art. There's something about putting a disk/tape/SD card in and manually loading a game that just makes it more real.

really great video, very thorough with some great guests. Well done!

What a match Z80 and ESP32. I hope this becomes ubiquitous as a raspberry pi.

Pico8 sold over 1 million copies, now we have an actual hardware fantasy console :)

This machine runs Richard Russell's port of BBC BASIC, written when he was an engineer working for the BBC for the Beeb's Z80 second processor rather than Acorn's original version of BBC BASIC written for the 6502 by Sophie Wilson. Richard is a really interesting guy who also helped write the original specification for the BBC Micro. Maybe RMC could interview him?

@BreakIntoProgram

7 ай бұрын

I'll second that. The code is lightly massaged to work with the Agon, as the original (and now open-sourced) Z80 version was for CP/M, so graphics and sound needed to be added back in, along with changes to file I/O, etc. Z80 can be a difficult language to work with at the best of times, yet Richard's code is a joy to work with, despite the lack of comments! I'm currently working on a customised version for the eZ80 that can use the full 24-bit address space. Almost done - one bug to go.

@youplaboum

7 ай бұрын

Hi, coming from Locomotive Basic that I used on Amstrad, there are a few differences that I think would be interesting to implement. Mostly aliases for VDU commands, but maybe other too. Would you be interested in implementing some of them into Agon Basic? Here's an old article on the differences: www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/5/52/Bbc-loco.jpg

I did get one, though it still cost a fair amount being based in Melbourne, was very happy with it and had to spend a bit of time working out that the BASIC commands need to be in upper case... was so like getting a computer when I was growing up 😀 I would like to spend some time on it and this video was really inspiring.

OMG, I have that "Computer Programming" book that's on the table at the start of the video in my collection of "old stuff" that I just couldn't bear to throw away!

Retro fun and educational as well...I like that aspect of it.

Great project, guys! Amazing!

This looks like a genuinely fantastic addition to an already excellent system. There is one thing I would dearly love to see incorporated in to the design, if not routinely implemented by way of a physical connector: A *proper* expansion bus! I may be wrong but AFAIA the 'expansion' for this system is GPIO only - very useful for what it is but no good at all if one intends to design hardware add-ons... which I would - the very first thing I'd make is a RC2014 expansion bridge board to go along with an Argon CP/M. If this design at the very least had a documented expansion bus, even if not implemented by default, I could roll my own version with an expansion bus happy that my pin-out would follow some 'officially sanctioned' layout... ...better yet if there was an unpopulated header on the official PCB that could be used but otherwise not add to the cost for those who didn't want it. ...some years ago I designed and made my own eZ80-based computer fundamentally compatible with the RC2014 and Amstrad PCW - it's bus was a superset of the PCW expansion bus so it could run as a stand-alone CP.M machine, an Amstrad PCW accelerator, or with a simple bridge board as a super fast RC2014 compatible - I got quickly bored with it because I'm much more in to hardware than coding so the system was no fun to play with having no software development behind it. An Agon system that delivers basically the same functionality but with a community behind it would be much more fun.

A very nice review of the Console8 and all Agon SBCs!! My console8 is shipped today, but is has to get through the Danish customs (it will take 1 - 2 weeks). For me it is not the games which is the attraction (the only game I had in the mid 70s was a Moon lander program on my Texas SR52 programmable calculator), The challenge for me to learn how to code in ez80 assembler and maybe transfer code from the UNIX/Linux world to an 8-bit Agon . I have started from scratch and written some sketches in BBC basic and hope later to transfer for instance astronomy programs to the Agon family .You have a very important point that all the software development which is mentioned in your video works on all Agons (Agon Light, Agon light2, Agon Origins and now Agon Console8) 👍👍

Seriously though. I love the concept, the great people involved and the reasoning behind it. This is not an ad, it's a dream brought to life from the love of such ideas, which you can tell from the passion and sheer talent displayed here. Do I want it? Yes. Will I buy it? Probably yes if I can get it. Will I use it? Probably twice then put it on a shelf and wait for true programmers to make amazing software for us to install and use like we used to. Such an amazing, practical and educational tool for many generations to utilise and learn from. We shouldn't forget this kind of knowledge and as time has already told it leads on to greater things for many people. I imagine the Pi community will love this too. I love this idea more than anything I have heard of in years. Imagine if schools took this on instead of being so lazy with today's easy and less informative technology. This would get to the guts of the machines yet again to drive inovation. I'm in love with it all. Good luck everyone so, so much! Excellent.

The quote that really got me was the 'bare metal gaming' quote near the very end. Really feeling the metal of the system you are programming for (and playing on). Very cool stuff.

The hardware design is simple, to the point, based on massively available and cheap chips (hahem no FPGA) and it runs an old proven OS and Basic implementation : excellent job ! BTW Wolfenstein on steroids (textured ceiling/floors, maybe voxel sprites) seems doable

@AndrewHelgeCox

7 ай бұрын

Doom already runs on this microcontroller with 4 player local network play (over I2c iirc) and sound at a healthy frame rate and resolution.

Hey, this is a bit of a Frankenbeast. BBC Micros used the 6502 processor, and now this is running a Z80.

I would properly use it for coding games in BBC Basic. The games that I always wanted to make in the 80s with the BBC Micro, but were not able to because of the limited computer power and speed. I love BBC Basic and the thing I am mostely looking forward to seeing in the near future, is are what games are possible to do in Basic whit this powerfull machine. I would also love to see games like ELITE (properly not doable in Basic though). It could be absolutely cool if it would be possible to load old BBC Micro games into the machine and run it, but this is not an option I understand - but it could be pretty awesome 🙂

It is very "British" or at least inspired by the great and proud history of British homecomputers and gamed - and this is why i am interested in it. I have always wanted a BBC, Amstrad, Sinclair zx spectrum, Dragon. I love rhe story behind the bbc computer made for learning computer via television . Therefor i love the BBC basic for boot. Secondly it uses a zilog processor very close to the one used in zx81 and zx spectrum but with huge improvements . I like the way audio and video features can be updated by new firmware . I plan to buy one . ❤

Wouldn't mind seeing this in action when I'm down at the cave this Saturday.

I love the concept and think they've done well with the price point.

What passion the team has! I love the enthusiasm and the energy and yet I don’t think this is for me. Personally what I loved about my C64 and the my Amiga was figuring out ways to make them do things that no one thought was possible. The constraints of the hardware were the catalyst for the creativity. With the Agon the challenge is that nothing is final and there’s no real software yet. But fundamentally the system is defined by an extremely powerful modern RISC-V processor which does all the heavy lifting, and then a tricked out Z80 to orchestrate. That feels like a very different proposition and the fact it boots to BBC basic doesn’t change the fact that this is fundamentally a different breed of cat to the 8-bit systems of old. But I wish the project every success and it will be great to see what comes of it. Hope there are regular updates on the channel and thank you for bringing this project to a wider audience.

Looks cool. There's nothing stopping developers creating a front-end to start games without having to go to BASIC, right? So you could have some kind of launcher, that starts automatically from the SD card and let's you start (compatible) games right from there. Without the need for a keyboard. That would be neat for an actual console experience. :)

@RMCRetro

7 ай бұрын

You can change the firmware and make it behave like something entirely different if you want, it's very hackable

The Agon8 and Retro8 are both very cool. Would love to get one when I have time to tinker! The comment about using it to learn programming for kids is very true

What a good video. I think what I like most about the Agon is the potential of it. The serial protocol as of a few months ago was not really fit for even C64 levels of game performance. Smooth scrolling, forget about it. But the VDP is a moving target and there is enough muscle not only to match but to surpass the C64 graphical and sonic capability (perhaps even significantly so) - and all while driven by BASIC, not machine-code. It adds up to fun.

I do like the concept, but not something for me. Got enough to be getting on with my Next, raspberry Pis and a homebrew console which i have had for years and barely touched !

No HDMI is a dealbreaker in this day and age. If you have a display which accepts VGA (who even has a VGA cable these days beyond enthusiasts?), you're probably already emulating one of the system the Agon is supposed to be. Certainly if I gave it to any of my kids at a code club, they wouldn't be able to plug it into anything, which sort of defeats the point when you can just get a Raspbi Pi. The joystick ports are nice, but that won't bring new users in - seems like a device for people who have 9-pin joysticks sitting around already, who probably have the original computers to go with them. The "who is it for" section sums it up - it's for the people who designed it. For anyone else, there are better, simpler alternatives already out there, which you can actually connect to a modern TV/monitor.

This is ace. Can't wait to get one.

I remember that a lot of non-computer tasks had those older computers as the heart of. Things like boiler systems and timeclock for employee punching in and out.

I'm not sure why I can't find this quote I remember reading from Douglas Adams (I'm almost positive it was he who said it), but the gist of it was... Computers are very good at being bad students. In order to get them to do anything, you have to get them to understand it, and in order to get them to understand it, you have to break it down into lots of very simple instructions, and at the end of this process, you often find that you've come to understand it better yourself. That's definitely not the quote, but that's the general idea of it. This project seems, and I mean this as a compliment, like a bad student, in a way that most modern computers are not, and therefore probably an excellent educational tool.

As someone who used BBC’s in the 90’s in a school for the blind, this really takes me back, so my question then becomes, what happens if I issue: *fx5,2 V.2 By rights, this *should* allow all screen output over serial, to which we’d connect a speech synth. If that worked, I could seriously have fun getting back into basic programming. I wrote a terribly written text adventure game which showed you all around my school at the time. That was about the limit of my programming knowledge, but I had hours of fun during the weekends working on the thing. Would be very amusing if ‘*roms’ showed the old Wordwise word processor from June 1989. Way too many memories running that thing…

@paul_boddie

7 ай бұрын

I guess it depends on the MOS implementation. *FX calls map directly to MOS functions, so there would need to be a similar mechanism to change the output stream to send data to other destinations (or the input stream to receive data from other sources). This is actually an area where the implementation could be friendlier, offering a less arcane set of commands that effectively leverage the same underlying functionality, which I think is something that the Commander X16 people have tried to do with their own Commodore-inspired system.

@archibaldbuttle7

7 ай бұрын

MOS on the Agon is only very loosely inspired by Acorn's MOS... there's quite a lot of differences. No *ROMS for example, yet. MOS itself doesn't implement *FX calls - instead a limited selection are available inside BBC BASIC. As *FX 5,n selects the printer port, and there are no printer output ports available on the device, it's not been implemented. Similarly VDU 2 is also not supported, as without the ability to connect a printer that's also kinda meaningless. As it goes, all VDU calls are sent over a serial link anyway - that's how the VDP is connected to the eZ80. Essentially all output on the Agon platform goes via that link. 🙂

In some ways it seems that this is what the Raspberry Pi wanted to be and was for a little while... But this is much more a hobby project than what the Pi is now. Less of a commercial product, I would say, more something that people pour love into. I'm very curious about its capabilities and am dying to see what you talented programmers (and artists!) will develop for it!

Where would i find the schematic to add the joystick ports to the gpio pins to essentially give my agon light 2 the capabilities to play any games developed for the agon console8 or are they 2 completely different systems?

wow this is really cool! i grew up when the Commodore 64 was pretty popular, a few friends had one, we had an Atari 2600, and BBC Micros at primary school. Hi from Tasmania :)

Let's be real, the first thing anybody is going to do with it is the print "hello world" loop.

@RMCRetro

7 ай бұрын

5:05 - real talk

The console looks very interesting, and I'm very clearly target market. The video addressed pretty much all of the technical questions I had. The remaining question I have though, is where did Steve Sims get that shirt?

@RMCRetro

17 күн бұрын

I asked Steve and he says it came from here: www.qwertee.com/

Thanks for the video! I like the Agon, I think it's a cool project (even better in the Console 8 package!). However, when it comes down to develop Retro-style code, I always wonder, what's wrong with running RISC OS on a Raspberry Pi? I mean RISC OS is a powerful Retro OS (powerful for the 80s, not for modern days), the raspberry Pi is understandable enough (probably the only relatively obscure part if the GPU, but that is not relevant when using it with RISC OS) and developing games in BBC BASIC on an fast ARM is way more fun than on a 14Mhz Z80. Not to mention that, obviously, BBC BASIC on RISC OS offers full inline ARM Assembly and there are ways to support even NEON extensions, so one can go from limited to unlimited. So for me, I have my ideal retro platform already and works abolutely great for retro stuff.

This just seems a dream. Something all of us retro junkies have wanted for ages. An open book if you like. Looking forward to see what I can do with it.

This is really interesting stuff. Not much of a gamer myself, but tinkering with a new 8 bit computer tickles me in the right ways. hope someone make packages to make the music and graphics on the machine. So one can make a demo on it, for it.

Having been coding on the Signetics 2650-based APVS platform, this machine doesn't seem constrained at all!! 🤪 I've put my order in 👍👍

What's got my attentoin in the fact that with BBC BASIC I could use the built in Assembler, (which I have used on my Electron), with the Z80 OP Codes, (I'm used to programing machine code on the ZX81 and Speccy). It's a pitty there is no price yet on the bundle package.

BBC Micro wasn't a thing on continent but ZX Spectrum 48K was and it has been my first comp (C64 C second) but if I understood correctly Agon could be Speccy with another BASIC.. ;-)

My first computer was a Commodore Plus/4, way back in 1984. Then I went to C=64, learned assembler, and then on to the Amiga, where I did a lot of assembler coding. This is to say, I'm no stranger to these kinds of systems. However, if you're asking what I'd like, what I'd like the most is an OpenSPARC based system to run illumos on: a workstation version, and a 19" rack mountable version: a piece of hardware powerful enough to run a modern operating system, in the Silicon Graphics and Sun Micrososystems tradition.

Bernardo Kastrup the philosopher of consciousness!? 🤯 I did not expect that...

This machine looks great , I might buy one at some point

I love it. I grew up with all the machines (ZX81, Speccy, C64, Amiga) that this machine seems to cover and I'm so thrilled to follow the development. Ideas: Mouse support. Tools like a drawing program and a tracker with sample capability. A browser for an online software repository or just a package manager. Not being dependent on a PC. Noob question: Is BBC basic able to change the baground color? Blue would be nice :D

IMO only the 8 bit guy has the following to get his project off the ground to succeed, it has a community of game devs and a big game being made by Dave himself. I don’t begrudge trying, technically this project is better, and nobody really disputes that. I think retro is flowing around launchbox and handheld pocket emulators. I don’t think this is where it’s going. I’m willing to be proven wrong. This project needs a flagship game and to poach some of the dev team from Commander X16, and it needs a tracker music creator, bitmap editors, sprite editors etc. People slate Dave but he churned these out very quickly for the X16 project, he’s a skilled coder. This project needs these things. Also the default 3D cube flickering is a bad show, that demo needs to be deleted from the project and just the double buffered one shown, bad demos shouldn’t be left to try

@mwaddams

7 ай бұрын

Mike Daily is developing for Agon now :) That's Lemmings and GTA done. And it's way more successful than the X16, thousands sold already.

@TheKnobCalledTone.

7 ай бұрын

There's a huge price difference between the Agon Light and the Commander X16. Some people that have been priced out of the Commander X16 might go for this instead. Others might buy the Commander X16 instead of the Agon Light out of loyalty to the 8-Bit Guy (especially Americans).

@giornikitop5373

6 ай бұрын

@@mwaddamslemmings might be doable, but i believe gta is not. any game with moving screens that needs constant transfers from ram to vram, is going to be a nightmare in agon.

@mwaddams

6 ай бұрын

@@giornikitop5373 The eZ80 would only be doing logic. The ESP32 can do scrolling no problem.

@giornikitop5373

6 ай бұрын

@@mwaddamsunless you can fit the whole graphics of the game in the free psram (i don't know how much is left), i don't see any other way getting something to run at acceptable speeds. Already the very simple examples included, suffer a big hit in speed when something graphic semi-intense has to happen. still no problem?

This is interesting to me in the way it pairs a Z80 with an ESP32 to do the heavy lifting with the ability to customize that aspect of the product.

I just have to ask...is there an extra deluxe set that in addition to the gamepad includes the branded keyboard and more importantly, the coffee mug? :-)

Oh, this is absolutely for me. If I can't get it, I'll get a PCB fabricated and put it together myself; make it truly a part of "making it your own".

Listening to these grognards discuss how they made the Argon do tricks reminds me of listening to old mechanics discuss modifying engines. Same energy! o7

I understand it's really days. When it comes to consoles though, nothing speaks louder than a killer app. When the design dust settles, I look forward to seeing what it can do.

i would like to see games like Dune II , Midwinter , Maniac Mansion or Carrier Command be remade in 8-bit. This might be THE system to do it on, tho not by me.

@BreakIntoProgram

7 ай бұрын

Funnily enough I was thinking about how difficult it would be to port the SCUMM engine to it.

@oldguy9051

7 ай бұрын

Maniac Mansion and Carrier Command were available for 8-bit micros, though. The C64 version of Maniac Mansion is very good and well known.

Really great project, yet the practical side of me is a bit confused why not just running everything on the Esp32, since it's more than powerful enough to do so.

@mwaddams

7 ай бұрын

Cause that would be emulation. Just use a PI for that.

@p_mouse8676

7 ай бұрын

@@mwaddams give it a name you want, the end result will be practically the same, especially with so much overhead. As far as I understand from what is said in the video, big parts are now emulated as well.

@AndrewHelgeCox

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, if you implemented the basic for the esp32 directly there would be no emulation and it would have identical characteristics. People could write basic or xtensa / RISC-V assembly just like they can write basic and z80 assembly in this arrangement. I think a lot of uses could be found for a few megabytes of RAM instead of a few kilobytes and that would still be pretty limited.

@p_mouse8676

7 ай бұрын

@@AndrewHelgeCox that was basically what I had in mind as well.

@paul_boddie

7 ай бұрын

@@AndrewHelgeCox And there is a portable version of BBC BASIC which, if I remember correctly, Richard Russell was persuaded to develop instead of messing around with assembly language implementations for specific architectures. So, running that on the ESP32 would give the retro experience. There would only be a need to rework the assembler if someone hasn't already done so. Of course, people did use BBC BASIC on the Z80 back in the day, but shoehorning a genuine Z80 device into something like this arguably adds little meaningful authenticity. BBC BASIC was also ported to a number of other architectures back in the day, too.

I'd like a fork of this which gives us a MIDI interface and multiple profiles to emulate the various sound chips from all the popular 8 bit systems (BBC, Speccy, C64, NES, Master System etc). It's very difficult to emulate advanced 8 bit audio synthesis in modern DAW software and (at least for me) it usually ends up sounding more 16 bit once reverb, compression and other effects are added. I will be using my Dad's old Atari Mega ST for a 16 bit external MIDI device once we repair and service it but there's very little you can do with 8 bit chips because it predates MIDI for the most part! I know it's a niché within a niché but a cost reduced, MIDI/music focused fork could be quite profitable considering most VST plugins or sound packs can be in the hundreds of pound range and you need so many different ones to even get close to these classic sounds. I'd kill for a one size fits all 8 bit hardware solution for like £100! This could also be expanded to 16 and 32 bit machines which would give it even more utility, the possibilities are endless with such an open and customisable project, I love it!

@archibaldbuttle7

7 ай бұрын

Sounds possible. The entire platform is open source. The audio system in the VDP has been designed to allow for different waveform generators to be added to it, as well as different volume and frequency envelope types. Adding them in is fairly easy. The GPIO connector has pins available that could likely drive a midi interface. Have at it! 😁

This is for those "kids" who spent a week with a ZX Spectrum on so they could program the birthday cake with music and animated candles.. The same kids who were subjected to databasing on BBC micro's at school.. For those who know the magic of DIR. Flynn Lives!! He's just been playing Elite.

5:58 ez80 is an absolute beast as far as 8bit CPUs go , so much faster than the 3Mhz z80 from the 80s.

I think projects like these are really cool. It's not really for me, but hopefully, it's for enough people to make it a viable thing. I love going back and playing around with the 8bit machines from my childhood with emulators, so I'm interested in playing around with an emulated version of this 😊

Think that flexibilizing the Basic Version, whould reach other retrocomputer fans around the world… Ive never heard any thing about BBC micro !! Altough i enjoyed MSX, COMMODORE and Brasil Sinclair clones !!! What about to launch MSX2 , COMMODORES ETC BASIC and VDP RESSOURCES ??

Ah, BASIC, that's what you use to insert data statements full of machine code isn't it?

This is the true Commander X16.

1:12 none of the above 😏

From the footage you’ve provided, I’ve seen a lot of issues with graphics causing some significant slowdown. Will that improve with new sprite commands, or is that a limitation with the hardware?

@giornikitop5373

6 ай бұрын

this thing is a very fast and affordable learning micro, but as for games, unfortunately it doesn't have a real bus. there is no direct access to the vram from the ez80. all is done through a serial bus that, although is fast at 1mbit, it can only send fabgl commands to the esp32, only the esp can control the vram. as it looks now, it's not good for games, only for some very simple examples. but things might get better.

Agon in ancient and modern greek means "competitive" by the way. Don't know if the name was intentional :) Argon the element on the period-system means "slow,lazy" :) Also an interesting name for a console :)

An interesting thing, although given that I've still not really got to grips with the Spectrum Next I suspect I wouldn't get the best out of it!

When I tried to pre-order it said that it could not ship to my address in the USA? Is this only available in UK? Is there a US based company selling these too?

@RMCRetro

7 ай бұрын

Heber intend to ship this to all regions as certifications are passed for those areas, for example FCC approval in the US is being sought currently and when it passes US shipping will be enabled. I'm sure they would be interested in finding regional resellers too.

I still wish the Color Maximite 2 was actually available. From all the recent projects it looks like it's one of the most mature, especially in terms of usability (integrated editor, etc) and speed. Of course this is not to knock the Console8, I'm super happy that projects like it, the Mega65 etc. exist.

@archibaldbuttle7

7 ай бұрын

Making sure that the Agon Light, and by extension the Console8, was designed to use widely available components was an important part of Bernado's thinking. It helps ensure that they will be readily available. I'm not sure how the Color Maximite 2 and the Agon compare in terms of speed. I've seen both draw lots of triangles very quickly. :grin: As for usability, there's efforts afoot to build out an introductory SD card distribution which contains within it quite a few useful tools, including an editor.

@mwaddams

7 ай бұрын

A 32bit 480 Mhz CPU is just not retro :)

@chrisainsley3533

7 ай бұрын

Integrated editor and line-number-less BASIC is absolutely the killer-app for Agon development. I'm sure these will arrive in-time. No rush.

@Colin_Ames

7 ай бұрын

An interesting project, but not one I need right now. I have just finished building a PicoMiteVGA, so I have to get to grips with its BASIC (I’m an old man who has never programmed anything, I just like building things). If I hadn’t built it then I might have considered the Console8, as BBC BASIC could have been the better choice. In any case, I wish the project much success.

@paul_boddie

7 ай бұрын

@@mwaddams The original Colour Maximite used an 80MHz PIC32MX microcontroller. That isn't exactly retro in that a MIPS-based processor at that clock speed would have been a mid-1990s product, but it is possible to deliver a simple retro experience with a slower PIC32MX device generating the video signal, doing interfacing and running programs. Such devices are readily available and did not go "non-stock" during 2020, unlike numerous FPGAs and quite a lot else. The 8-Bit Guy did evaluate the Colour Maximite as a learning/teaching device but evidently decided it wasn't Commodore enough and presumably also didn't facilitate random poking of the hardware. However, I think that such microcontrollers provide some useful evidence of being adequate for many of the stated goals of these initiatives while also not pretending to be something else. It might also be noted that the ESP32 in this design presumably runs at 160MHz, at least according to the datasheet, so I'm not sure how retro that is, either. In Olimex's FabGL board, at least the ESP32 microcontroller does everything including run the user-facing software environment. People might not approve of the emulation involved if they want to run Z80-based software on that board, but strapping a Z80 onto such a design seems like an unnecessary conceit just to avoid the e-word.

You'll never be disconsolate with 'dis console8. I'm sorry, I'll get my coat.

The agon console 8 logo looks like the logo for the ardunio logo :p. I hope the team behind this machine have a lineup of 1st part games , any good console should have it's own lineup of 1st party games and if you ask me even gaming PCs should be made by manufactures who are also willing to make their own games for it.

Looks nice, but the lack of hdmi ( I know it's supposed to be a reimagined 8 bit computer ) might cause problems for people without vga displays, which are not exactly uncommon today.ok i googled and is seams adapters are cheap-ish, aybe someone should create a starter kit which bundeks the computer with the adapter.

Elite with all the missions from Elite plus and many more missions would be fantastic

Great introduction into this wonderful machine! BBC Basic is the only Basic i haven't tried out yet. I would port my BASIC 3D-Renderer to it, which i wrote originally for the Commodore Plus/4. I suppose shipping +tax + tolls to Germany will be about 50% of the price unfortunately...

@chrisainsley3533

7 ай бұрын

The console8 is compatible with the Agon Light 2 that you can get from Olimex for 50 EUR. You do miss out on the two joystick ports however but other than that the VDP, MOS, and BASIC are identical.

@GeorgesChannel

7 ай бұрын

@@chrisainsley3533 Great iinfo. shipping costs are only 9.50 Eur

I'd love to see what was mentioned as something not wanted - firmware which, rather than turning one of the cheap Android TV boxes based on, most commonly, one of the Amlogic S905 series SoCs, into a powerful game emulator running ROMS as is currently done, would instead turn one into a programmable game computer perhaps taking advantage of code already present in the emulators.

What the system sadly lacks, is the use of the GPIOs for a "traditional" cartridge format, like the Commander X16 does. I understand, that cartridges would be an expensive nieche, but for collectors, this is a big plus. Maybe a Console8+ fixes this?

@archibaldbuttle7

7 ай бұрын

3D print a new adjusted case lid with a gap for access to the GPIO pins, whip yourself up a quick cartridge design, and you're away! (I'm not sure if the case design has already been uploaded to Thingiverse, but if it hasn't it will be soon.)

@SunSailor

7 ай бұрын

@@archibaldbuttle7 No, it is not that simple, as there would be some standardization of pins and firmware would be required. As far as I understand, making the thing a console is already a narrowing of its original everything goes design. You would want to automatically start the cartridge at least, which is possible and intended with the X16. Further, you wouldn't want to stress the GPIO pins themselves out that much, so a dedicated PCB with a host mount would be required.

@AndrewHelgeCox

7 ай бұрын

Also, the point would be to have a cartridge slot in a standard config from the factory to provide a development platform worth targeting.

@archibaldbuttle7

7 ай бұрын

@@SunSailor this machine is a full-blown Agon Light with a few minor hardware extensions over the original design, not a narrowing of the original. As you have already pointed out, cartridges are an expensive niche, and this is already a niche system... The economics involved in making cartridges are not great. Factor in covering software development costs, and you'd need to sell an awfully large number of carts to break even. I can't see a commercial argument for including cartridge functionality myself. As for the X16 supporting cartridges, good luck to them. Given the price differences between the systems I don't think they're really aiming at the same market.

I got some major flashbacks to the early 80s. Heady days of going to the commodore show etc.

I hope Agon becomes available in the US. I had ZX81 and taught myself Z80 machine code and assembly language on it. I love the idea of having BASIC built into the computer.

@CraigLPatterson

7 ай бұрын

The Agon Light 2 (from Olimex) is available from Mouser and Digikey. It is basically the same machine without the joystick ports/case.

@richardturnnidge

7 ай бұрын

The joystick ports are available on the i/o bus, just not terminated in a 9-pin connector. So, you can still add your own if you like.@@CraigLPatterson

I have really mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it's really cool. On the other hand, the market is already saturated with so many forms of basic, and meeting to learn the ins and outs of each particular variation is already time consuming. There's the original retros, the replica retros, and there's a whole slew of independent pseudo retros like this out there already. Already. I'm not sure we needed another one? Thus, I have very much feelings. It is a cool project to be sure, but I'm not sure what the target audience is.

But does it have genuine Sanwarrr parts?

The Agon is pretty damn good from what I've seen.

Woud love a network adapter for this... Loved BBC basic as a kid and remember coding some ceefax type stuff for it at the time. Would be interesting to build something like bbs over internet for it. Also for me the limited memory is a selling point makes you think harder about how to achieve something in as little space as possible, where as some of the code i review these days goes on for ever. Trying to explain to the devs that it could be tighter usually leads to "but why we have Gigabyte if needed".

@giornikitop5373

6 ай бұрын

fujinet, which btw is an esp32 based hardware and software, is used in many retro machines. the developers mentioned that it can work in just about anything, it's only a matter of examining the hardware and development time.

It‘s not for me but I love seing projects like this

No mention of the ZX81 or the ZX Spectrum in the intro ? They also dropped you right into BASIC at switch on.

@RMCRetro

7 ай бұрын

Absolutely and the introduction to many of us here in the UK, I could have made a 30 minute video on all the machines that boot into BASIC quite easily!

Quite disappointed that it hasn't got a port of BBC BASIC V. The line numbers for example are quite unnecessary as you can embed procedure calls within a complete program without the need for numbering. Is it possible to switch off line numbering?

@mwaddams

7 ай бұрын

I don't think so, there is RENUMBER and AUTO. And of course it's all open source, so feel free to enhance the BASIC 4 version. With the ADL version you get a whoppin' 512 Kb to play with :)

@archibaldbuttle7

Ай бұрын

BASIC V had to have line numbers too Some editors would automatically hide them away from you, but they were still there The version of BBC BASIC the Agon uses is derived directly from the Z80 source Richard T Russell wrote for the BBC Micro second processor. It is essentially equivalent to BBC BASIC 4. It is still a very capable version of BBC BASIC, and has function and procedure support. A port of BASIC V would be nice, but as it was written for a completely different CPU architecture unless somebody has a lot of time, and a lot of talent, it's not likely to happen Gradually extending the existing BASIC to include features from BASIC V is probably the better approach.

Hi Neil, did you manage to bring in some more help to give you a hand with things in general? I don't mean to be intrusive, it's just that you've been looking somewhat tired, and as you mentioned that need in the past I was wondering if between the channel, the museum, the lectures, the workshops, the charity calendar, the podcast, etc. you'd maybe been stretching yourself a bit too thin. Not my business to actually know, just checking in. Thanks for the great content

@RMCRetro

7 ай бұрын

Hey thanks for checking in on me. Yes I do need to think about more help and yes I’m putting in some long hours (no complaints!) to try and get to that point. Hopefully I’ll get there soon. The usual challenges of trying to create something special I’m sure!

Having a modern microcontroller do USB and graphics is a very sensible choice. That is something I thought that the Commander X16 should have used instead of a costly FPGA. I just wish that it could have a memory-mapped interface to screen RAM and virtual registers, as that would be much closer to the original 8/16-bit programming experience.

@AndrewHelgeCox

7 ай бұрын

You could write a little library that let you bang on "registers" on the z80 side and then interpreted the delta of them since the last frame to commands to send over the serial bus. Since there is no graphics hardware at the other end this gives you the same experience.

@jc33353

7 ай бұрын

I much prefer the real hardware approach of the X16 and Foenix as opposed to a microcontroller that makes the CPU (Z80, 6502, or whatever) effectively a peripheral.