I have spent all my life thinking tappet noise was the cam hitting the follower or whatever just before the valve opens. Here you demonstrate that the sharper tick was the valve slamming shut.

Great video! Very informative and another great way to put our testing tools to use. Thank you TBT and Brin.

A remarkable piece of information conducted in a practical way. Thanks for sharing. Keep going adding more cases like these...

Amazing and very technical as always,great job and knowledge ,a lot. Thanks for share all that information

Holy hell, how have I not found this channel before. I blame you Mario! Subscribed!

@TrainedbyTechs

3 жыл бұрын

Welcome aboard Bobby

I've seen tons and tons of those junk rockers Fail.. I've seen alot get so bad they will miss at idle but if you just tip in on gas the miss goes away. I work on 6 to one jeep to chrysler cars so I see it alot on the jeeps obviously. BUT I lo e how you did this and I'm going to incorporate this test method into my diags. Thanks a million

Very interesting how you explain everything. Thanks

Great video TBT and Brin! I just took a class with Brin and CTI and we were talking about the 3.6L engine! But this test for diagnosing valvetrain noises was brilliant!

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thank PJ! How'd your class go?

I have some piezo sensors with magnets glued on them too. I can setup 4 (or more) on a component and find out which lead is giving me the strongest noise.

@djosbun

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Hans, I was hoping you were going to comment on this excellent video! Do you have any videos, either on KZread or another platform, that I can watch to help educate myself further? With best regards.

@downtowntodd767

3 жыл бұрын

Hey Hans. I am sure you are aware of the damage a strong magnet will do to a the reluctor on the cams of this engine. Always be cautious of parts trays, lights and even pickup tools with magnets in them. A camshaft is a terrible thing to waste.

@HansJorgensen

3 жыл бұрын

Not yet unfortunately, I've been working too much and not playing around enough. But when I get time to put something together, you'll see it here!

@mikejmardis

3 жыл бұрын

Would love to see a pic of your setup; if nota video.

@HansJorgensen

3 жыл бұрын

@@downtowntodd767 My magnets are definitely not strong, they're glued to 1/2oz weight of a piezo disc so I want to be able to take them off! My primary use for them is on suspension parts where it's quick and easy to stick them on suspension parts. For engine noises, I usually have something long to get down into the engine like Brin has done.

Fantastic as always!

Appreciate the video and your time! Thanks. A lot of potential for future test techniques.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you Bart!

Thanks a lot and great explanation

very interesting. i love thinking out of the box and using what you can find to make new stuff. knock sensor - why didnt i think of that

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

I have many of those "why didn't I think of that" moments.

Great video !! Very Detailed !! Thank you for taking the time to explain and for sharing.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you Steve!

@steveanderson4553

3 жыл бұрын

@@brinkline1870 That was an awesome video 👍👍👍

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching Marc!

Great video thanks,

Dude, this was unbelievable... After todays class I can't wait to go buy more traditional diagnostic tools to use in unconventional ways.

Great video Brin! Such a great way to see that noise with proof for the customer. I know what I'll be building next week!

@Jo-hannson

3 жыл бұрын

cool! if you have time, I would love to see a video of the build :D

@waynefrancis5843

3 жыл бұрын

i guess it's pretty randomly asking but does anybody know of a good place to stream newly released tv shows online ?

@remingtonkase8634

3 жыл бұрын

@Wayne Francis Lately I have been using flixzone. Just google for it :)

@huxleymitchell5407

3 жыл бұрын

@Remington Kase yea, I have been watching on FlixZone for since march myself :D

@waynefrancis5843

3 жыл бұрын

@Remington Kase Thank you, I signed up and it seems like a nice service :) I really appreciate it!

Plus transducer for back pressure will show even more on oscilloscope.

Jeff Bly showed some of this at vision last year. Used a knock sensor to identify a plugged injector last week

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Very cool!

That's a very high school technician,thanks for that amazing job you doing and I,m following As a small child, his favorite cartoon series, I never get tired of watching videos from this channel and you are a great technician

Trained by Techs happy new year 🎉 Tutorial great 👍 👌 👏 From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

Thanks for the video.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for wathing!

Very good inf 👌✍ thanks for sharing🤝

Thanks for sharing... Cheers.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Hi in that knock sensir tester what kind rod did you use

PRODIGY Trained by techs My teacher Video great tutorial 👌 👏 👍 Thank you PRODIGY Trained by techs From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

How make ultrasonic Like yours and where was it’s connected while cranking

Damn that's a slick looking tool! Thanks for sharing. That valve would be opening late and closing early, but since we have another exhaust valve operating normal it would mask some of the problem. It seems to be doing a good job but may show problems at certain RPM's or loads. Eventually I would think it would set some type of drivability code. Good video.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

I agree!

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching!

The central camshaft lobe was not affected so the valve was still opening. Mazda 2.2 D engine (2013-2016) has a similar problem with the exhaust camshaft lobes and it looses power from 130-140 km/h but lower then that you can’t feel it.

Interesting video , what type of bar did you use for stethoscope?

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Carlos used an old antenna.

Brilliant using a knock sensor. Dam learn something new everyday. Great video . Stay well.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Nelson!

Hi! Great video, I'm digging more and more into the possibilities that the vibro and accoustic diagnostics can give, instead of tearing everything apart and blindly looking for the source of noise. Question from me - how did you install the pressure transducer in the second measurement? Do you put it instead of spark plug? Is the engine idling during the test or you just crank it with a starter? Does PicoScope allow to perform the FFT processing and show the noise spectrum? Can you perform the envelope function, or is it possible to export the raw measurement data to process it in other environment?

Is that 4 valves per cylinder? Breathing through the second valve sufficiently?

Hi great tool the knock senser tool you made did the stethoscope bar did that just fit tight into the knock senser or did you have to secure tight into knock senser ?

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Daniel, Thanks for watching! Carlos used an old antenna that was secured to the knock sensor using a ring clip.

@danielgreenbaum8875

3 жыл бұрын

Hi brin thanks for your reply ive recieved my knock senser today and I used threaded bar through hole with nuts either end worked amazingly well and got different lengths was testing on ambulance vehicles I work on and it amazed me and colleges I was working with thanks for your help and idea and for sharing this

@danielgreenbaum8875

3 жыл бұрын

Also am gonna order another one and use for suspension knocks and noise and can attach it to each side on a 2 channel scope gave me that idea today from using it

@ggkohler

2 жыл бұрын

@@danielgreenbaum8875 Hans' peizo/magnet setup would work great in this application. Use two of them on either side of the component under test (control arm, etc.).

I mIssed the reasons for choosing that particular cylinder for pressure waveform, I am assuming that’s where you heard the noise?

Hey y'all, is there anything else you can use besides a knock or piezo sensor to detect abnormal vibrations ? I've used a piezo sensor before and they work great but are difficult to get down into tight spaces

@richfalco4333

3 жыл бұрын

An ultrasonic microphone has a long thin probe for constant testing and can be connected to a scope

It ticks because the cam is whacking the frame of the rocker. It still runs right because the cam lobe is still mainly intact, and the hydraulic lash adjuster is compensating for the collapsed wheel on the rocker. Cool trick looking at the timing of the sound. Kudos!

@mikejmardis

3 жыл бұрын

Hasn’t met the threshold, YET!

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

I agree that valve lash is probably less excessive than most would think for the reasons that you described but I also think that the engine configuration (2 exhaust valves instead of one and one is still fully functional) has something to do with the lack of driveability concern as well.

I think you would have probably seen the cylinder having an issue with an RC test and pulse sensor testing while cranking but nonetheless great work on precisely identifying a NVH complaint.

@mikejmardis

3 жыл бұрын

Just out of curiosity, with this approach, where would YOU place the pulse sensor?

@mikecdyer

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikejmardis If I had low compression in a cylinder I would probably start with intake looking for a difference and in the exhaust after that. It would depend on what you are looking for. You could also use dipstick to see ring blow by if it wasn't one of the valves.

@mikejmardis

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikecdyer but, in this case, there was no markable deficit with RC. That I of it’s self may have made me think more finite; like valves. Just trying to get your train of thought so that I’m not missing anything. So, RC being “normal” (depending on what you are using for a transducer, I seem to find that they track more than fairly with actual compression testing once you know the correlation) my question still stands. Not challenging you. Just trying to wrap my head around your line of thinking.

@mikecdyer

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikejmardis Even if the RC test was fine that valve isn't opening enough so you would see it with a pulse sensor cranking and with a pressure transducer in that cylinder.

@mikejmardis

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikecdyer my question is, what in your mind(with these complaints) would lead you to using the pulse sensor. I don’t disagree. Just trying to track your thinking for my benefit

We found a worn cam at my shop using the same technique but we didn’t do the in cylinder, but used the piston chart again an ignition waveform. Is there a reason you did in cylinder vs that? It was on the same motor literally a day before this video came out lol

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome Job! I agree that we could have just used an ignition sync to identify the problem cylinder but I liked being able see which valve was causing the concern by comparing the noise to the valve events shown in the cylinder pressure waveform. I got kind of lucky choosing the correct cylinder right away but I don't think it would've mattered. I think we could have identified the cylinder and the valve even if we had chosen to go into the wrong cylinder by using the partitions like we did.

@draildrums

3 жыл бұрын

@@brinkline1870 yea we used the piston chart and found that the noise happened on the suspect cylinders induction stroke and that’s where the noise lined up, took the cover off and there was a worn intake cam lobe.

I recently read that knock sensors are tuned to about 6.5khz. And are less sensitive above and below that. That could be good or bad for testing depending on the characteristic of the “tick”.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Interesting. That makes sense considering that a traditional engine knock produces a frequency of about 5-7 kHz. Had I researched this more, I might not have even tried so I'm glad that I didn't. We certainly understood that there may be limitations but thought we'd give it a try and see. In this case, it worked out but more testing will be needed to insure reliability. I also believe that different sensors may yield different results but I think most used in modern vehicles will respond similarly to the one used in this video.

@scientist100

3 жыл бұрын

@@brinkline1870 make a standard sensor and sell it lol. This way everyone is consistent.

How are you liking pico 7 also? I couldn't install pico automotive on my laptop for some reason. I tried everything possible. Anyone else had issues with windows 10pro doing this? Half install P. Automotive and then error and it uninstalls. Pico 6 works great, so that's all I can use now.

Trained by Techs, not sure on your thoughts, and you will have more of an idea than me, but I have always used a normal stethoscope for suspension squeaks. The problem is the sound transfers throughout the whole suspension component and it is still difficult to pin point the noise due to my perception of the noise....would the scope allow you to see a change in amplitude and give you a better idea of which joint it is?

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

I have always had the same problem Phil. Yes, I believe for many, it would be helpful to be able to use more of our senses when diagnosing noises. That's why I think finding ways to attach piezo sensors, pressure sensors or ultrasonic sensors to a scope so you can see the amplitude change on a waveform is a great way to increase confidence, accuracy and efficiency. Thanks for watching!

@ggkohler

2 жыл бұрын

Can place two NVH sensors on suspension components, and use Time Domain on scope to see which registers first.

Could you not do a measurement near each cylinder to determine intensity and therefore which cyckinder .

Awsome

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

yeah it has a tick but the valve is still opening enough for the air/fuel charge to get in.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome for participating Richard but this was the exhaust valve but I knew what you meant and I agree.

As the second exhaust valve is working correctly the engine performance is still o.k. At high loads loads/ high demand it might exhibit issues as it is there where the restriction caused by the worn lobe will have it's greatest impact.a

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome Juergen! I agree!

4:51

HA! That's genius!!! I guess to save some time, you could sinc. the noise with an ignition event to give you a a clue as to which cylinder to shove the transducer in...

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Alex! I agree. But I think going straight in cylinder would be even more efficient. Even if the issue wasn't in the cylinder you were checking, you should be able to tell which cylinder and what valves were causing the concern by adding partitions like we did here. I guess in this case, knowing the cylinder would be enough because after V/C removal, you would visually see the problem area but I'm a nerd.

@alexlongpre4527

3 жыл бұрын

@@brinkline1870 Yeah, it makes sense. BTW I used to be more of the brut force type, but after looking at your videos and others, like Paul Danner's CTI, TST, Diagnose Dan, Super Mario, Motor age ans the likes, I think there's a nerd growing inside me. Haha

@scientist100

3 жыл бұрын

@@alexlongpre4527 no ATS, Bernie?

@alexlongpre4527

3 жыл бұрын

@@scientist100 Of course, how could I forget Bernie, the rocket scientist!?

guess you were using a gm knock sensor would a chrysler one work as well have plenty of them

@TrainedbyTechs

3 жыл бұрын

We believe so. They both operate on the same foundational theroy. The best answer I can give is, TRY IT! Experiment!

With 2 int and 1 exh you dont have driveability issues, but viceversa probably yes. Thats why 3 valves engine have 2 int and 1 exh. Its easier to push thru exh than pull thru int

You want too ck out The Gadget playlist on youtube he's got a DIY automotive STETHOSCOPE. great video.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I'll take a look!

reverse v-tec. the rocker bearing collapsed, the rocker sides were riding on the cam, the valve is still able to seal, but the valve travel was reduced. that bank should have lower long-term fuel trim due to the lower intake volume. so rather than spending thousands on transducers and an hour looking at the pressure and vibrations, just look at the fuel trims?

You son of a bitch! Every time I had a question, you answered it. Thank you for giving us more to play with. That probe seems simple to build, but someone may need a schematic if you don’t mind. Additionally, where ,exactly did you place the probe for testing? I’m thinking it didn’t throw a code because it hadn’t met the criteria, YET!!!

It is just acting like an old flat tappet. It will wear and get noisier.

Yes, too much talking, you say you will keep it shorter, then you say this section is not for this video and then you continue to discuss the section not supposed to be on this video. I also believe that trainers need to be much better prepared to teach, this video seems to be a bit of adhoc, let's make it up as we go along on the 720-degree stuff, some of the anomalies are not so noticeable so not so repeatable so let's not harp on them. In the beginning, you talked about how difficult it may be to find the exact area of noise, I did not notice you hunting and pecking with your probe to find the noise and show the weaker and stronger feedback signals of your probe, you want straight for the noise at #1. Worn camshaft lobe, please don't tell me that this is a HEMI hehe. This is the first video i have seen of yours, I am almost afraid to go listen to the much more talkative videos but this one was very informative for me, an experienced tech so I will go check out some shorter videos based on time then go from there, much appreciated. I am also going to share this video so you should get many more hits from Europe here soon.

@brinkline1870

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, sometimes I talk too much but I get so excited when I'm spending time with y'all! suspicion The amplitude of the noise did not change much when moving the probe around the cylinder head. In this case, just understanding that we likely had a valvetrain noise and seeing a repeatable pattern was enough for me to try seeing how valve events lined up with the noise. By the way, I don't know why part of this statement was in red text.

@scientist100

3 жыл бұрын

You write like you're paying for this stuff and like this content is not up to par for you. You should be thanking the man for taking the time to clarify everything by detailing those details for the non-experienced techs. I know what you mean but cut some slack to the guys that are barely getting into this industry. I'm a diag electro-mechanic, I may not have seen it all but with tools like this I can diagnose a problem without guessing what it may be and what cylinder area I should be looking at.