This series has changed my life

Such a good channel. Great thinking and deep thought provoked and put out there. Love it.

BTW the interviewer does a great job regardless of who the guess is.

@martinet1985

4 жыл бұрын

wild guess i guess!

@dougg1075

4 жыл бұрын

What the hell (pun) does that mean

@Oh4Chrissake

3 жыл бұрын

@@dougg1075 You have to guest.

@bobusa1960

2 жыл бұрын

The only complaint I have is although he tries to mentally permit the potential for God's existence, it is the only topic that he continually emphasizes as "IF God exists...or IF there is a God...." during his interviews. He covers a wide spectrum of topics which may not exist, but this is the only one in which he reinforces what comes off as perceived as a highly unlikely condition, maybe kowtowing before the scientists he interviews....

I feel that heaven and hell are just states of mind, not places in time and space.

@viaini748

2 жыл бұрын

THE REAL & FINAL EVOLUTION : Heaven: heart changed/reborn in PERFECT union with Lord Jesus, & become innocent/children of God, & Not Able to sin/evil anymore, so heaven can be exist forever. Hell: heart changed/reborn in TOTAL HATE by satan, & become devil/children of hell/satan, so hell must be locked forever, & separated from heaven by dimension of space-time! it's impossible to escape, there is no connection anymore with God or anyone else. because every person trapped in his own soul to pay the taste/cost of his own sin/evil that cause GODJESUS & other people be hurt/suffered! so there is the new duty/burden they take as children of satan, for they have already rejected GODJESUS Existance while they still live happily on earth which look like paradise/blessed by God. BLACK HELL= SOUL FALL FROM PARADISE & can't be fixed/changed anymore, great regret! that's how GOD WARNING become so important, but human mock/spit on it & kill GODJESUS to shut Him up! now God shut them down forever, God don't wanna hear again no matter how they screaming like a hell! JESUS cannot become their GodLord/Leader/Saviour again, because they have fired Him & they choose SATAN/Father of Sin/Rebellion. so now their leader is SATAN in eternal fire of damnation, but satan cannot help them, he has been fired from heaven! 😰

That was nice! Great conversation :)

I love this lady. She's so polite and scholarly, something very rare in the contemporary religious debate.

@MrRezillo

3 жыл бұрын

Amen; not what you get from the fundamentalist Protestant blow hards.

@jedi4049

Жыл бұрын

She is wonderful. I agree.

@sergkapitan2578

Жыл бұрын

Who is this woman? Do you know?

@enniomojica7812

Жыл бұрын

@@sergkapitan2578 she sounds great but she is just repeating the great wisdom of the Catholic Church. That’s why she quotes Saint Thomas Aquinas.

The lady is good and honest as compare to B Russell who once was asked abt Islam and he said "All gospel truth are alike" and he did not even read Quran (one of the books of God) and without reading he passed the comment, This lady said I do not have credentials on Islam waooooo

Wow this one is awesome. Her point about the bus going from heaven to hell is so thought provoking

@Diallelus

Жыл бұрын

You should read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis if you haven’t already. That’s the work she was referencing.

A good father doesn't throw his children into a fire for misbehaving.

Thank you for your services mam you great and beautiful and you are amazing mam I hope the whole world live in peace forever

Hell doesn't have to be interpreted as a place of eternal conscious suffering. The view of anhilationism is also a plausible one that can be accepted.

@TheGreatAgnostic

Жыл бұрын

There have been many universalists in the Christian tradition too, eg Origen and Gregory of Nyssa.

I think if she's going to quote CS Lewis, then a lot of this becomes easier to answer. At least as I read him. Disclaimer: I don't believe in Lewis's views myself, but if you're going to ask questions about heaven and hell, then he's a good source, and more to the point he's the source she draws on so it's worth seeing what he said. Lewis argues that the soul is eternal, that is, that it exists outside of time (and NOT, as most people seem to interpret this, that the eternal is simply infinite time). So the question of whether you can get out of Hell is meaningless, because it implies a progression of events (before: in hell; after: not in hell). To borrow a physics analogy, asking what happens after you arrive in Hell is like asking what's north of the north pole. Similarly, Lewis argues that human souls become united with God after death in agreement and community (not a literal merging), but that Hell is simply the state of being opposed to God and remote from him. We think of some kind of fiery prison camp where demons pitchfork the damned, but it's more like a moment of realization frozen in infinity, where you see that the orbit that you placed yourself in has taken you to the coldest and most remote depths of space. If there IS a God, and if there's some joyful community in his presence for the good once we've died, then what could be worse than not being in that community? BTW, she kind of implies that heaven/hell stuff is a tenet of judaism-- which is a very selective and incomplete view of jewish theology. Judaism has no particular dogma about a spiritual afterlife, other than that there is some kind of continuity and justice once we die. This is why some Jews are Buddhists and believe in reincarnation etc without any contradiction.

@joelthiescheffer8163

2 жыл бұрын

In which of his works does Lewis address these issues with hell? I'm pretty curious about it. Many thanks. Joël

@theprogram863

2 жыл бұрын

@@joelthiescheffer8163 The fastest/easiest reference I can find is the Screwtape Letters.

Notice how she first of all states that coming together with God has to be a mutual agreement. But then later, she objects to the possibility of a bus line from heaven to hell. If people from heaven wanted to leave and go to hell, why should they be prevented from doing so, considering that their relationship with God must be mutual?!

@samuelstephens6904

5 жыл бұрын

Her ad hoc rationalization seems to be that anyone who is in hell wants to be there or perhaps doesn't want to be there, but can't accept a relationship with God and wants out for purely selfish reasons (as if not wanting to suffer eternally is somehow less of an appropriate desire than wanting a relationship with a deity). She then justifies this notion with the rather unorthodox idea that we receive perfect and complete information at the moment of judgment and have the opportunity to make a final decision then. So much for Pascal's Wager and all those billboards on rural highways warning that you may die in a car accident on your way to your destination and therefore should accept Jesus RIGHT NOW!

That's the thing that makes most people, myself included; afraid of death, no one knows if there is a life after death, it could be reincarnation, or living life in another universe, or just endless darkness. It's a terrifying thing.

@MrRezillo

3 жыл бұрын

"It's a terrifying thing." Well, terrifying to you and me because we're alive, LOL. I love what that old codger William S. Burroughs said: "When you're dead you're just dead." If you're dead, there's no 'you' to be terrified.

@davidjefferis4467

3 жыл бұрын

;

@vulkan8093

3 жыл бұрын

Another question to ask is where were you before your birth?

@RiverGem

3 жыл бұрын

What we are afraid of is the unknown. If we discover after death that we are conscious without a physical body, I don't think we will be afraid. I think the state we find ourselves in will be based on natural laws and will seem perfectly normal to us once we get there.

@enniomojica7812

Жыл бұрын

@@MrRezillo if you believe in justice and right and wrong then you have good reason to believe you will still exist after death. To face justice for the life you lived of course.

Ask any living being who is suffering. There is hell. In that regard, that is truth.

Nah Eleonore. We can certainly conceive of a person seeing or being in hell that would cause genuine change of heart to want to be united with God's heart by seeing that they were wrong.

@xtaticsr2041

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah it makes no sense that God can’t convince people for an eternity. Like people in hell are a bunch of mini-gods set in their immutable ways.

The whole argument is based on a liberation notion of freedom, such that I am free when I have chosen; but this is a mistake. One is only free when one has chosen aright. No one could with full knowledge _chose_ hell (endless torment). Thus Eleonor Stump is asking us to believe in the impossible: that we can rationally make an irrational choice.

@enniomojica7812

Жыл бұрын

Oh really no one on planet earth has ever made a rational decision to choose something irrational? You just need to keep living. You see even if you know something to be rationally correct but if you don’t prefer it you will chose what you know to be rationally incorrect. Because your distaste for what you know to be correct is greater than your distaste for what you know to be incorrect. It all comes down to what you want in your deepest of desires.

Those that offend shall be cast into a furnace of fire: There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. But he loves you ! (Matthew 13:42)

Heaven is for those who establish a relationship of deep friendship with God , who constantly repent of their sins, and who do loving and good deeds, hell is for those who do the opposite.

Thank you my parents for breeding me into a decision and thoughts i never wanted to decide nor think. I'd love to believe in complete happiness at the end and never would once vow to eternal foul, but i will not live the life i never asked for in question and uncertainty especially choices made upon fear or happiness. I live my life to be the best me for me and the family i've been given along to do good to others as its what makes life in what we think kind and accepting. If me living this life to do what i consider good and delay what i believe bad put me in a situation to be put in a category of eternal color, than i hope one day thats not the case as i believe laying to rest in eternal sleep with no thought or knowingness as i was brought into this world would be just fine by me. Though i will always believe that if there was truly a god i would appreciate and love you with all that i have and if there was truly a devil of bad, i would not hate but feel remorse and hopefulness that one day he could be a better being.

"Let me give you an example so that you can understand... because I really have no idea". Honestly, some people! How can one possibly like a God that one does not know !?

I liked the talk by the lady since she said that she has no credentials to discuss Islamic perspective about the concept of punishment in hell I shared few lines for the purpose of comparison and information:)

Heaven is the joy arising out of the communion with god (st Augustine)

What absolute silliness. Especially when you realize we create our God's from within our mind and hearts. That crack around 10:00 is very revealing, she hates Earth, so spends her time thinking of afterlife.. Sad lost lady, Earth is who created us. We die, we die. Life on Earth is for the living!

I love how they gotta grab from Paradise Lost or The Inferno to explain themselves. Not the Bible, but creative works that are unofficial because the actual religious scripture doesn’t speak on or dice deep into the concepts.

This sounds good.

at 4:45 is precisely what i find abhorrent about monotheistic religions. If, as she says, God presents himself in these stories to let us see his goodness, I'd say those stories do exactly the opposite, esp. the old testament versions. Plus, reflecting on how His followers present themselves, I find it hard to find any care for a being that inspires such hateful behavior and beliefs.

What the (hell) is she saying?

@davenchop

3 жыл бұрын

talking around the question since the real answer would be inhumane

@MrRezillo

3 жыл бұрын

@@davenchop Yep.

@djpriddin6211

3 жыл бұрын

Good question Ahmed. No clue at all for me. The problem is, as always, everything is woolly and not easy to understand. This is like a word salad. The whole interview is just talking round and round in deep deep terms which is hard to follow. Just a simple question.. I'm outta here, I'm afraid

The thing is, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins then you’re good and don’t have to worry about hell as long as you believe that he is the sacrifice.

@davenchop

3 жыл бұрын

human sacrifice... stolen from history for 10s of thousands of years... all stemming from the seasonal changes people didnt understand and the rebirth the following spring.... doesnt take a genious to figure out where it came from... do some research but the truth may not be what you want to find

I don't believe in hell but i do have nightmares from time to time. Why would my own mind create such a hell for me when i sleep and i am helpless? Doesn't bother me much, i love to dream and can take control in my dreams if it became unbearable. Poor souls that can not.

9:10 If everything is presented to you, the decision is made based on the individual, on the soul, or configuration, as Eleanore puts it. But the question is, if we make a decision, given all the data, based on our individuality, can we change that? Could we have choose otherwise? Given that we are who we are? Could we have been someone different than who we were?

@wierdpocket

Ай бұрын

Another way to think about it is that in that moment of death, you “live out” an entire eternity, and your relation to God at the “end” of that eternity is the only possible way you can relate to Him. (This seems like a paradox until you think of it in terms of set theory) You’ve been given all the facts, experienced all the emotions, received all possible data that is available to you. Then you are left with your question: “is it my fault if I choose one way or another?” To answer that question in the negative is to assert there is no free will. If it isn’t your fault, you never had free will, and indeed had no will at all: Your conscious experience as a willing being belongs to someone else. But we know this to be incoherent. That decision you make IS your real, final, fullest possible decision. There are no more experiences or bits of knowledge to add. This is a difficult concept for us to grasp because it requires thinking of our time-bound selves in a time-less capacity.

Where is she getting this stuff from? There's nothing in the Bible about any of this. It's just a rationalization of ancient superstition to try and make it more palatable to people who are actually free to think critically about this and realize that the traditional view of hell makes no sense. In fact there's no reason to think that there is any such thins as heaven, hell or afterlife. This women is just talking smack.

I would think a broken soul could be healed and the need for hell is for those who don't want to be healed.

If anyone knows this wonderful lady, perhaps you could pass on to her what Islam says about this issue. The prophet of Islam said that God has written on his throne: Surely my mercy prevails over my anger. For some great Muslim theologians this is the proof that hell is extinguishable. Therefore the punishment will not be eternal.

Around 9 minute, sounds like she talks about how angels make decisions and their decisions are permanent, thus there's no salvation for fallen angels.

Yes, both exist but not for humans to go to when they die. Here is the scriptural truth, with scriptures, showing that hell is simply “the grave.” When you use the original Hebrew and Greek Interlinear translations, from which the Bible was translated you find that Jesus did not really teach of an eternal torment at all. And people’s souls don’t go somewhere when they do. They sleep in death until such time as the day of Resurrection occurs - as the Bible says “some to a resurrection of life and some to everlasting destruction ) While this article is short you can do more research and find out more about it. It’s really all very simple. @t

@wormie077

3 жыл бұрын

I agree

5:00 well....

If I am a loving parent, I would provide a nice place for my children even if they don't want to be with me. I must be more loving than God. If she is right and you get full information of exactly what it will be like in heaven and hell when you die and then you choose...Great! Those who want burning forever, line up to the left. Wow! That line is always empty!

How can a permanent Hell exist for a temporary sin? If a person died knowing Jesus Christ as their Lord And Savior, then all sin is washed away by his blood. The problem is man is a sinful creature, and God is a just God. One can't go their whole life living in sin, then on their deathbed say forgive me before they die. Nobody goes to hell without their own consent. Subconsciously we all know God exists, yet temporally want to live in sin. The Bible says, " You can look at Creation, and know theirs a Creator. So you are without excuse.". We send ourselves to Hell, not God. " If you don't know God in life, he won't know you in death."

Very rare kind of person. Much more rare kind of woman. Her humility and intelligence are both truly awesome. No exaggeration. Honestly women really aren't like this. Eleanor Stump is a treasure to humanity.

@martinet1985

4 жыл бұрын

yeah except the catholic crap

15. [ And they requested victory from Allah, and disappointed, [therefore], was every obstinate tyrant.] 16. [ Before him is Hell, and he will be given a drink of purulent water.] 17. [ He will gulp it but will hardly [be able to] swallow it. And death will come to him from everywhere, but he is not to die. And before him is a massive punishment.] The Noble Quran

@jackmabel6067

4 жыл бұрын

Orpheus is LORD!

@theyabbadyyan6515

4 жыл бұрын

There is just one GOD .. ALLAH

It's interesting that we decide what God is going to do to us.

Don't waste your precious time. Just go and read David Bentley Hart's "That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation" published by Yale University Press (2019).

@ob4161

3 жыл бұрын

Yes! DBH is legendary.

@christophergraves6725

3 жыл бұрын

Well, not everyone will go to Heaven with people being endowed with free will. There are people who choose to reject God.

@JAWesquire373

2 жыл бұрын

@@christophergraves6725 this is exactly what DBH talks about in the book. Libertarian free will makes no sense. For your will to be truly free it must align with the telos/purpose it was created for, which in the case of the imago dei is God, i.e. the good. It makes no sense to speak of “free” will in any other way.

@christophergraves6725

2 жыл бұрын

@@JAWesquire373 There is a difference between free will and spiritual freedom. You are playing on the latter only. A person choosing to reject God in order to continue in evil is a type of slavery. The abolition of their freedom comes not in the ability to select that course of life, but in the abased life that such a person embraces. Once within the clutches of evil, people gradually lose their sensitivity to the truth and to God's love and his purposes. So, we seem to agree that this actual descent into evil involves a loss of freedom. Where we seem to disagree is whether or not a person can freely select it or its complete opposite--to respond favorably to God's offer of salvation that leads to conciliation and eternal joy and complete fulfillment. The lost person desires joy and fulfillment but apart from God. God allows people to decide that course for themselves and then respects that decision by allowing those who have rejected God to live eternally separate from him in their alienation from him and from all that is Good. This is Hell. God's justice in conjunction with God's libertarianism is missed by the analysis of David Bentley Hart's universalism. Here he openly admits that he is a determinist: “those who worry that this all amounts to a kind of metaphysical determinism of the will, I may not be able to provide perfect comfort. Of course, it is a kind of determinism.”

Interesting

I love how in this series you can tell the difference between theists and non-theists. Theists tend to speak in this authoritative way, as if they have inside knowledge on 'truth', whereas non-theists just present arguments.

@sergkapitan2578

Жыл бұрын

Not all talk the way you describe, many atheist are very arrogant..

The irony here is that both of them are sitting in hell and discussing where is hell and how is it like? A hell is a beautiful place where we can't be happy. I'm no authority on this but can't u just see the truth and how can we ever comprehend realities like soul with our intellect?

hard to reconcile this idea of information overload with Aquinas’ theory of human action. It seems that if we were given all the practical information on the matter we could not but will God and his goodness.

yes she is very smart.

That the concept is so complex is the very evidence we need to conclude it’s not true. Heaven and hell were late additions to Judaism. If god didn’t refer to either in the Torah, it’s because his creators hadn’t made it up yet. They did later and got rich.

Dolores Cannon has it right.

Wat reunion has to do??

"Here's the right way to think about it", she says. That's what they have to offer us ...

The crucial part is at 8:00. At the moment of death we are given complete information pertinent to the decision that determines where we will spend eternity. The problem is, this is an empirical claim that is almost certainly false. I don't see how Stump can get around this.

@snuzebuster

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, really how does she know any of this? Why does this guy interview people like this who juts talk a bunch of baseless nonsense?

@zualapips1638

4 жыл бұрын

@Kyrby Caluna In that case, if we have a decision, no one would choose hell...

@ifyoueverfind78

4 жыл бұрын

near death experiences.

@enniomojica7812

Жыл бұрын

@@zualapips1638 that’s not true. For instance do you consider yourself a person that loves praying the rosary every day and attending Mass daily? If you abhor the idea then you definitely won’t want to be in Heaven.

@enniomojica7812

Жыл бұрын

You have good reason to believe you will be given all the pertinent information upon death. After all Hell is the place of justice as is Heaven so since for the sake of argument we are assuming Hell is real it also follows Heaven and God are real. Would it not be just for God to give each person all the pertinent information upon death? Assuming the individual wasn’t given all of it while alive? Of course God would (to be fair). So then it’s like she says upon being given Al the pertinent information it comes down to what the individual truly wants. Does he truly love God to want to be with him forever if in his deepest desire he chooses not to want to be with God then he chooses He’ll which is a place or state of eternal separation from God. This Hell is eternal torment as only God can fulfill the desires of Man.

I do not agree with the mono theistic main religions view about heaven and hell, Your heaven or hell is your present in time space. if you are a drunk or violent guy and you are suffering, that is your hell. and, if you do what you love and you are contempt that is you heaven in the present. Also your heaven or hell can change for the worst or the better in time.

What did Jesus say about hell? Why do these people look to men for answers and not God’s word. God wants to transform our nature to it’s nature. That is why the word says I will give them a new heart. Shalom

Closer to the truth Self righteous people believe in things like hell, and they always think that they are not going there, but that it`s always for some other person besides them selves. I don`t believe in a hell, I believe that the bible expresses the idea that the creator will destroy the offending persons and that will be the end of them.

Philosophy and theology without empiricism can lead you to believe and assert all types of nonsense.

@infov0y

6 жыл бұрын

As can the models devised with empirical results, as we see from since debunked past models that were justified as the time. Empiricism provides the right path to truth, but doesn't provide immediate access to it. Philosophy (and theology when done right) provides logical possibilities for truth, it's for empirical science to decide between them. Irony is, people like yourself are unwittingly attached to philosophical models that are just as unjustified empirically as those of the religious.

@infov0y

6 жыл бұрын

My OpenMind: I've explained in this very thread how astrology differs from an afterlife in our ability to say it's untrue. You just have a naive (but unfortunately all too common) opinion of what science can and can't do in this area. In other words you "believe a falsehood". Unlike myself even by your own bad lights, as for the record I don't believe in an afterlife. I see no evidence to persuade me to do so, and even though as an open question I could reasonably believe if I chose to, I don't particularly want to. So I don't.

@ifyoueverfind78

4 жыл бұрын

concepts of heaven and hell aren t really that irrational, if you understand deeper thoughts of theology. cause people understand various ideas in science, then they think they know, or can know anything based on the knowledge they may have in science. the scientific laws exist, but man didn t create those laws, he figured out such laws. somehow he may feel he created them, he think he so smart.- heaven and hell is a different level. gravity exists, and why? it seems irrational, in a way, yet gravity exists, so does time in space. based on what...our egos? heaven and hell is much deeper then people think, it is not a superficial concept. and there is evil.and, there are serial killers, who are evil. there are evil dictators: such as hitler and stalin,paul pot. yet somehow people freak out that there is a concept of hell. is that really that irrational? but we think we smart, we think we good, we think we rational, we think we know...we don t know. we don t know how time and space, nor quantum really came to be.yet, we may understand some of the mechanics. we don t know how the physical laws of einstin or hawking actually got here. there are many unanswered questions...there truly are evil people, there truly are good people. there is true , deep beauty in nature, and animals, like wolves, pumas, mountains...there are also sufferings, wars, illnesses often occurring from evil men how have power. yet in all that we know there is no god or heaven and hell. -its not that irrational, nor is the concept of god in a deeper construct. problem is atheists think theology is superficial its not, its quite profound.

The question is only complicated if you have a bias to defend.

Presumably, god would know about someone, before or when he creates them, whether they are such as to reject him forever. Why would god even make such a person? What would be the point? So it seems reasonable that no one is created who would reject him forever, and thus no one is in hell. So just live your life as you see fit, and, if Christianity is true, you'll have all the time in the world to go to heaven eventually after you die.

Hilarious!..don't worry everyone....quantum entanglement will let us be in both heaven and hell at once😎👌....I love listening to the preechers give their sugar coated "interpretation" of what all the ancient holy books said...if they said your going to hell for eternity then don't try soft sell it...cause they know how ludicrous it sounds to a modern society!

@alejandrodeavila5876

5 жыл бұрын

marty themole That’s not how entanglement works.

@bigericthewarriorforthegoo6266

4 жыл бұрын

marty themole , modern society has been largely dupt by the evil one.

@robertmiller5258

4 жыл бұрын

marty themole Try arguing with Prof Stump rather than slanging her. You will not find it so easy - believe me!

@markstuber4731

4 жыл бұрын

She's not a preacher.

A wise and humble intellectual who speaks the truth without partiality. But a hard truth especially for all who do not love God.

The physical world / universe exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing / complementary forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Male - Female, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world / universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world / universe would seem to indicate, through the inherent laws that govern it, the existence of a Prime Observer / Cause.

@tomjackson7755

Жыл бұрын

Why do you keep embarrassing yourself with these cut and pastes?

Professor Stump was a little sidetracked in her description on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce Looks like the person in hell who arrives in heaven is so small, that he has no physical body, a ghost. Tiny, flea size, he sits on a blade of grass and looks out to heaven as if he were peering from a skyscrapper. How much have we, man, in common with a flea on a blade of grass? Thank you posting this video. |Peace of Christ be with you

Any evidence for hell?

Guys, would you consider being humble about this? The dialogue is very cordial and clear and thus truth-conducive. Otherwise, how could these internet-philosophers proclaim such harsh judgment on her? Also consider how this is a secondary issue and she has to be precise and really concise in answering so that a short video could be produced.

Hell likely to be a furnace and forging and molding, taking out all impurities out and finally despatch to heaven as God (due to mismatch of creator and creation) do not want to keep him for infinite time in hell but cleanse him to be ready to be accepted by heaven, REMEMEBR HOW 99.9% OF GOLD IS MADE

Yep. Of course it does. But not in the way that religious allegory depicts. Firstly, we’re already in heaven and are actually suspended in it. This planet is floating in it and we can look up at the sky and see it at all times. But otherwise, heaven and hell are actually states of being. A soul full of noise, storminess, unhappiness, neediness, and ungratefulness can be said to be in hell. The individual will water his or her weeds and may be difficult or even impossible to be friends or companions with.

This god she speaks of sounds like a psychotic, malicious, possessive boyfriend/girlfriend.. you have “free will” to “choose” to love them and be united with them.. BUT if you don’t choose them you get sent to a place where it’s the worst suffering imaginable. That’s not called a choice. She also asks what do you want for the person you love? Uh...not to suffer even if they don’t love me? I’d rather have someone I love marry someone else and be happy rather than end up in a hellacious car crash leaving them in suffering for the rest of their life. I also love how this lady tells the host to let her finish talking, but interrupts him when he tries to share his ideas...

@preasidium13

Жыл бұрын

she said in the vid that even if God put people in a utopian world, they would still be in “hell” because they would be lacking true communion with God. Further, your analogy equivocates one’s choice of partner with one’s choice of fulfilling one’s end. Someone can choose different partners and still be happy. however, to deny one’s purpose or ultimate end will always result in suffering.

Not sure I agree in the duality of Heaven and Hell. I am certain that God, if there is a God, does not track evil nor good for any one person. By His/Her not doing so, the issue of why is there is evil in the world is resolved: God doesn't care. Taken to the next thought then, God wouldn't care about Goodness either. What a benevolent God is left with is to only care if you learn the difference between Good and Evil. To this end, there is no reward for goodness (Heaven) and no Hell for evil. Only, did you learn the difference.

Where does she get her information from? She has decided what she wants the truth to be, and now she is trying to justify it so that she will spend eternity in heaven.

@RCEmichaelreavey

2 жыл бұрын

Reading

Notice that Garcin in Sartre's *No Exit* chooses to remain in Hell when the doors of Hell are flung open. That was insightful of Sartre. In his pride, Garcin stays in attempt to work his salvation out in his own merits. He'll never get out that way. Only Jesus' merits can save us that He transfers to us if we humbly accept them in faith.

God didn't create an imperfect humanity to simply turn around and blame us! What He created was a free will humanity that evolves through the years. The more we evolve the more we know God and know His love. He created a humanity that will eventually evolve to perfect love. It's our choice, and NO ONE would choose suffering! However, because of the choices we make we receive and perceive the consequences as either good or bad. If you see the consequence as bad or suffering, then you will be in bondage to that bad or suffering. The idea is to look at ALL bad or suffering as an opportunity to do better and grow! If we fail to do this then we will remain in our suffering. The universe/God does not punish us! He has universal laws in place that are designed to teach us and help us grow! If we choose hell, then we have not evolved! Upon death we all go to a place we most resonate with based on FREE WILL! The mind of the body (ego) will die! Once that is dead, then we are perfect and all knowing! Some spirits are more evolved than others! However, once the flesh drops off, we become one with God in spirit IF WE CHOOSE TO! There are different levels to the spiritual realms and the higher your vibrations are the closer you get to God. The lower your vibrations are the farther away you get from God. Darkness is the absent of light, but God is in the darkness as well. God is superior to everything seen and unseen. He is our Creator. People need to stop looking at Him like He is losing some war against Satan. There is NO WAR! If there were, God could snap His fingers and end it in one second! The war is between US! Free will and diversity has caused much division in the earth. However, once mankind continues to evolve, they will come to know God for who He is - LOVE!

You can escape hell is if it's not hell but actually purgatory. Just like how every word she spoke made perfect sense but not the ones that came from her mouth.

@tingowealeans5712

4 жыл бұрын

lol

The early Christian schools of thought mainly taught Universal Reconciliation. It wasn't until the the 14th century with Dante's Divine Comedy that paganism started to creep into the church and teach Eternal Damnation. I mean, if you think of Hell from a philosophical point of view, it makes no logical sense; to be in Hell means that YOU BEAT GOD. You thwarted his Divine Will which I believe is absolutely impossible. The mistranslation of so many Hebrew words is astounding. Look at what modern scientists are doing; they are trying to prove we all came from nothing, instead of coming from God. There are so many philosophical errors these scientists are propounding. Men have a uber-ego that they just won't let go of. Kinda reminds of that one game, Bioshock ," No gods or kings. Only man.". Check out Hugh Ross. Pascal's Wager waits for us all in the end.

Hell is being in Heaven with God for an eternity, while you know God is burning everyone else in Hell. How could you possibly even think that heaven can be enjoyed? And why would anyone in good conscious teach this holy crap?

@Epoch11

6 жыл бұрын

A-aaaaaaa-men!

@Joshua-dc1bs

6 жыл бұрын

Amen

@ericday4505

6 жыл бұрын

innerlocus It is your choice, and it really is quite simple

@madmax2976

6 жыл бұрын

Sure, it is simple; the choice to reject YOU. That is all that is in front of us; people such as yourself claiming to know what some deity wants and thinks while not providing a single good reason to believe you have any knowledge whatsoever of any deity. And of course it's an integral part of the con to pretend that by rejecting YOU and those like YOU, this is equivalent to rejecting whatever God there may be. That's how the cult mentality works. Pretend you (or someone else) speaks for God and when rejected, spin it as though God has been rejected. This helps keep the already initiated in line and helps you prey on the vulnerable. Some might say it's the oldest con in the book. I tend to agree.

@petewalsh764

5 жыл бұрын

Eric, no, it really is you and she are simple.

Here is the biggest problem I see here , you are asking a human who knows no better than you.

7:12 Yes Ms. Eleanor Stump, Islam has the same view. Who ever is in hell will stay there forever because, the judgement is that is what they deserve and who so ever has even a grain of goodness will not go to hell. the people who think they should be given a chance to go to heaven once they finish their punishment - just as you said Islam has the same view. _if that were the case, they shouldn't have been there in the first place_

Check out Bart Ehrman's youtubes on this subject, he makes the most sense...

@joshheter1517

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/oW2Vz8OkltC6eNY.html

In Islam one can get out of hell with the will of Allah.

it's irrelevant as to how a person behaves in this life as if the main faiths believe that a all knowin deity exists, then it would know full well in advance how that individual would live their life so free will is a non starter

Why do big old grown-up people talk and ask questions like kindergarten kids? If mention of heaven and hell, who went there to come back with real news.

The philosophical ideas dont seem to match what the Bible says about hell. So much really of what is said by these people who try to philosophize Christianity seem to create a new version of it.

It's freaky - consider the following words - "Our dear loving leader loves us all. We are so happy to serve him. He will lead us to greatness and joy! We read only his thoughts, only his book. All those who speak against him are evil and must be destroyed" Have you not read these words from those living under Mao or other Communist countries? Now replace the word "leader" with "God" and you get the Abrahamic God! I hate to use the word Abrahamic, let's call it the Christian/Islamic God, because Judaism is a bit different from the other two and I don't think they belong in the same category Who knew Communism & Christianity/Islam have so much in common?

@RCEmichaelreavey

2 жыл бұрын

Good point. Yet, my Roman Catholic faith tells me that to lead is to serve. The pope for example is called the servant of servants. The focus is who is servant. That's Catholic |Peace if Christ be with you

@ramaraksha01

2 жыл бұрын

@@RCEmichaelreavey Still stuck with a slave like attitude - amazing to see this kind of brainwashing from an educated person living in the 21st century Ancients lived under Kings/Dictators - a very violent world - such men trusted no one - brought before such men one better get down on one's knees, beg, grovel and assure him of your loyalty & obedience The slave down on his knees before the Master! Amazing to see people like you blindly repeat these same tired old ideas of slavery, servitude Are we talking about the same pope who turned a blind eye to pedophilia, the abuse of innocent children? Kept moving these pedophiles from church to church so that they could continue to abuse new innocent victims?

@RCEmichaelreavey

2 жыл бұрын

@@ramaraksha01 Allow me the liberty to view my garden and concentrate on the fruit not the weeds. That's a side point. Doctor say: Change. Sacrament of Humility/Confession John 20:19ff Same priest every three weeks I'm Changed Took 40 years but some people are harder to train. |Peace of Christ

@ramaraksha01

2 жыл бұрын

@@RCEmichaelreavey What I am saying is that there is no Retirement Home in the sky - there is no magic land after death where you get to sit about and take it easy forever An idle, useless & pointless existence for eternity! It makes no sense! God made this world for you - THERE IS ONLY ONE WORLD! THIS ONE! Reincarnation says you can savor this Gift from God over and over! Do not throw away this Gift running after magic pleasures of the flesh in the sky Heaven is a construct of Religion - God did not make it - it does not exist

Its a mistery to me how americans managed to build a developed country with that kind of population. I assume there is tiny minority of top scientists building all the progress.

He is a wonderful examiner but keeps asking the wrong question. Hell, or more accurately, eternal punishment, is a gate locked from within beginning on earth. As eternal beings all of our choices are eternal - down to the brand of bacon we purchase. If one steps outside academia for a moment and sits at the bedside of dying persons, this is more easily seen. Henri Nouwen showed us this.

There's two problems with the proposal Eleanor makes in the second half. One is that knowledge is not merely propositional. To know something fully is also to love it fully and vice versa. This is already implicit in the convertability of the transcendentals (goodness truth and beauty) which is in Aquinas even. Thus, the to be in hell is to be in illusion of a certain kind, because our will is not arbitrary but primordially directed toward the good as such even if it can be mistaken, and exorbitantly and sinfully so, about which objects appropriately manifest this good at any given point. John Milbank points this out in a good interview here (there's two other videos in the same series that includes Robin Parry which I'd also highly recommend: kzread.info/dash/bejne/dWWn08-Jopmtopc.html So after death, this implies, for one who does not love God and the good, that either they will be allowed to be perpetually kept in igorance about the nature of these things, or that they will undergo a period of purgative understanding in accordance with their degree of knowledge / ignorance / sin (which means missing the mark) until they do. Can't recommend David Bentley Hart's book That All Shall Be Saved enough on this score. His fourth meditation breaks down the defective presuppositions about the nature of freedom and will in free will defenses of hell. By the same token, the idea that if there's a bus line to hell there must also be one in reverse inappropriately and dualistically puts good and evil on the same plane, instead of holding to the tradition of privatio boni. Once the true good is known (which we can never do fully in this life) we will desire nothing else. Only God is eternal, and God is the fullness of truth, goodness and beauty. Those in hell are unfulfilled, and so we should not expect them to be incapable of change, unless as I mentioned above they are purposefully kept in the dark without access to new knowledge (which is not purely propositional; this is key; see John Vervaeke's incredible work here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/Z6OpkpWNlaTce9Y.html).

Think about it any way you like...there is not one shred of evidence for any god, heaven or hell. Get over it and live your life.

Eleanore makes a huge, wild assumption here: the damned soul in hell is incapable of wanting to be with God - forever, that all they want is to get out of hell. Well, of course that's what they want! She doesn't address whether souls in hell have free will. If they no longer have free will, then they are being tortured vindictively by a less than loving God. If damned souls DO have free will, they can choose to love, whether God or their fellow sufferers in hell. Her basic presupposition is wrong. Loving someone UNCONDITIONALLY means they don't have to love you back. If they don't, it doesn't lesson the quality of your love. She doesn't address why hell is eternal. A loving God would simply and compassionately annihilate those souls who didn't want to be with him.

@bridgefin

3 жыл бұрын

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt or refuse it completely, but there is a story from Hell of a soul who went there and was allowed to communicate with an earthly soul who was praying for her. The damned soul said that they want to love but they are incapable and all that comes out is hatred and abuse of others. More than they detest God for his justice they detest themselves for their failures which landed them in Hell. So the souls in Hell got exactly what they wanted, separation from God. Someone who gives you what you want is not usually called "less than loving". Whether or not that story is actually true, it seems to ring true.

@MrRezillo

3 жыл бұрын

@@bridgefin Hi; yes, I'll take this with a grain of salt. Visits to hell are not in the Bible or the Magisterium, so several Catholic saints (i.e. Saint Maria Faustina) claim to have been there, and I've read other tales from both Protestants and Catholics. The only mention of a damned soul speaking out in the Bible is in Luke's tale of Lazarus and the rich man, but more of that in a moment. There are many things Christians tell themselves to rationalize eternal suffering in hell: the damned wanted to be there, the door to hell is locked from the inside (thank you, C.S. Lewis), etc. When you say the souls in hell got exactly what they wanted, then you'd think they'd be happy to be there, wouldn't you? Yet the damned souls in this account hate themselves for "their failures which landed them in hell." Therapists deal with people like this all the time: people who say they want to love, but all that comes out is hatred and abuse. Sometimes they can be helped. The damned souls say they want to love - but they got the separation from God they wanted. There's a disconnect there, as those two things contradict each other. God is Love, after all. Back to Lazarus and the rich man in Luke: in the course of the story, the rich man tells Father Abraham that he wants to go back to the living so he can warn his brothers not to end up as he did. This is clearly an act of love - from a damned soul in hell who presumably has lost everything - except the most important thing he has: love for his brothers! Here's a clear example of a soul in hell expressing love - in contradiction to the "damned souls incapable of love" in the "grain of salt" account. (As an side, the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke has big holes in it and is mostly likely an import from pagan sources, but that's a topic for a different discussion). If damned souls end up in hell because they rejected God's love by their own free will, that still doesn't explain why hell has to be eternal. A truly compassionate God with simply annihilate those who rejected him from the book of life, not keep them in eternal torture forever. Eleanor Stump doesn't address this question and tries to weasel around it. Anyway, thanks for reading all of the above which has helped me clarify my own thinking. I do my best to respect those who hold different opinions, so you'll get no name-calling or flame wars from me. Merry Christmas!

@bridgefin

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrRezillo You: When you say the souls in hell got exactly what they wanted, then you'd think they'd be happy to be there, wouldn't you? Me: Of course not. A husband who wanted an affair and got it should be happy but he is not when the consequences include the loss of his wife and family. When we don't weigh the consequences to our actions we sometimes find ourselves unhappy with the decision we made. Every decision to sin seemed like a good idea at the time but they all have eternal consequences. You: The damned souls say they want to love - but they got the separation from God they wanted. There's a disconnect there, as those two things contradict each other. God is Love, after all. Me: Those souls were still made in the image of God and that explains their impulse to try to love. The disconnect is that they have separated themselves not only from God but from their own nature. You: Here's a clear example of a soul in hell expressing love - in contradiction to the "damned souls Me: It is a parable and not reality. It is meant to explain something to those alive and not describe those in Hell. You: If damned souls end up in hell because they rejected God's love by their own free will, that still doesn't explain why hell has to be eternal. Me: With all due respect, who is owed an explanation? You: A truly compassionate God with simply annihilate those who rejected him from the book of life, not keep them in eternal torture forever. Me: They were created with immortal souls. Can any of us decide what the demands of justice and mercy are? You: Anyway, thanks for reading all of the above which has helped me clarify my own thinking. I do my best to respect those who hold different opinions, so you'll get no name-calling or flame wars from me. Merry Christmas! Me: I'm not used to this type of treatment! But I love it, my friend. Happy to talk to you anytime! Merry Christmas!

@MrRezillo

3 жыл бұрын

@@bridgefin I'll have to ponder this for awhile before I get back to you. Thanks.

@bridgefin

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrRezillo Good idea for all of us. Big questions.

hell is a very real and infinitely horrifying place please humen fellows don't soften the reality of the hell may the almighty Allah protect us all amen

So you can have free will as long as it agree with god. Religion may talk about free will but forget about choosing ... choose anything "out of the box" is sins and damnation. To be "closer" to god is to obey, conform, and absorb by this powerful entity ... yeah no thanks

@onestepaway3232

6 жыл бұрын

Tommy Rocker you have free will to be with God. It’s a choice.

@roqsteady5290

4 жыл бұрын

@@onestepaway3232 Yeah right you can choose the cosmic dictator or get consigned to hell, great selection. Lucky it is all bollocks, isn't it?

If you aren’t going to buy theism from this person, then you are never going to buy theism.

Unless those who make it into heaven have been reduced to some kind of bovine level of consciousness who chew a cud and plop down heavenly cow pies in heavenly pastures, then it seems to me that the thought of someone you loved dearly on earth being forever tortured in some hideous dimension of reality might take some of the joy out of being in heaven. If not, then you have no business being in heaven in the first place.

@TheUltimateSeeds

3 жыл бұрын

@@rubiks6 Just because God can "wipe away all tears" in heaven doesn't change the fact that God may also be torturing someone you love (perhaps your mom, or your brother or sister, or your wife or husband, or your best friend, or even your own child). I mean, would you not move heaven and earth right now to rescue a loved one from a mad man who is torturing someone you care about? Our present sense of morality and empathy causes us to absolutely abhor the idea of another living creature being tortured. So what happens to that commonly shared sense of morality and concern for the well being of others when one enters heaven? Does God simply "wipe it away"? (Btw, if God is forever inflicting unimaginable pain and suffering upon vast numbers of humans in a dimension of reality called "Hell," then, clearly, God is not wiping away "ALL" tears.) _______

@Steven-ff4wl

3 жыл бұрын

@@rubiks6 "You, like many before you, have come across this very difficult question" It is not difficult at all. Either there is no god, or if he exists, he is a nasty sadist, not good and loving at all.

Forever in hell? If you look at the Mandelbrot fractal you will find that some values of the basic equation always fit into the coloured pattern for eternity. Some values after several repeats finally make their way from the dark area to the light. Then other values always remain in the dark. But I would add that some animals are made to live in the dark. What is heaven to a light-dwelling animal is hell to the one who lives in the dark. All creation is Love in different perspectives. Harmony is finding out who you are and where you fit into the bigger picture.

if there was a hell, it would be outside of time and space. it wouuld be god.

Hmm... Here's the problem. If people can conceive of God in human terms - then it's not GOD is it ? Because nothing in existence resembles its Creator, and neither does the created resemble GOD. Further, finite creation cannot contain that which is infinite, all powerful and all knowing.

hell hades and sheol or all the same. (The word "hades" (underworld) was substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek) hell is also a sub. A. Hell (Hades, Sheol) not literal place of fiery torment ______________________________________... 1# a suffering Job prayed to go there… (Job 14:13) O that in She′ol you would conceal me, That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 2# hell is a place of inactivity… (Psalm 6:5) For in death there is no mention of you; In She′ol who will laud you? (Ecclesiastes 9:10) All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going. (Isaiah 38:18-19) For it is not She′ol that can laud you; death itself cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness. 19 The living, the living, he is the one that can laud you, Just as I can this day. The father himself can give knowledge to his own sons concerning your trueness. 3# Jesus was raised from grave, Hell… (Acts 2:27) Because you will not leave my soul in Ha′des, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. (Acts 2:31-32) he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha′des nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. (why would Jesus a perfect being who never sinned be in hades?) 4# Hell will deliver up the dead, and then be destroyed. (Revelation 20:13-15) And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire. The above scripture goes hand and hand with (Revelations 21:4) And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away. Hell is supposedly infinite fiery torment or a place of pain so even if it does exist (which it doesn’t) it will be destroyed. B. Fire is a symbol of annihilation ____________________________ 1# Satan’s fiery torment is everlasting death… (Revelation 20:10) And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:14-15) And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire. In this scripture hell itself has been thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed so Based on this info it’s clear that Hell = death or the “common grave of mankind” and the lake of fire symbolizes the complete annihilation of these things. 2# The bible says the dead are conscious of nothing… (Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going. (Psalm 146:3-4) Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. 4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish. A loving god would not let us burn in hell forever if half of the Christian on this earth picked there bible up they would know that.

Shaitan the adversary [of Milton] says: i am Hell, and wherever i am, that's where Hell is. 'adversary (n.) Satan [as adversary] is the 'embodiment' of the idea of being remote, especially from the truth, and thus from the mercy of God". Satan as adeversary is from adversus "turned against, turned toward, fronting, facing," figuratively "hostile, adverse, unfavorable," from ad "to" + vertere "to turn, turn back, be turned; con•vert, trans•form, trans•late; be changed" (versus). It is the 'no' of egotism to the 'yes' of altruism. Satan as adversary is the 'embodiment' of the futile denial of the inevitability of Harvest, futile in that even if u [the farmer] have a bad harvest, u will plow it under.

@RCEmichaelreavey

2 жыл бұрын

Informative and beautiful Thank you for posting this. |Peace of Christ be with you.

"It's unlikely the communal view could be wrong." How delusional is this woman! The communal view used to be that gods were driving the sun in a chariot across the sky. The communal view was that the earth was the center of the universe. The communal view was and still is that matter is solid. etc., etc.

True love (even unrequited) doesn't respond to rejection by sending the beloved to hell.

@chriswest6652

3 жыл бұрын

that what I was thinking but couldnt put my finger on it. Sure Jesus determines the rules of the game and I get that rightiousness and sin cant coexist - after judgement day, but, in that case, couldnt he just ahnilate us. Its infinitly more human. Peace.

If there were no bus line FROM heaven to hell, then "saved" souls in heaven have no free will either. Free will means having a choice to choose between good and evil. If you can't choose evil, hypothetically, then you have no free will. Satan and the so-called fallen angels obviously had free will, so it must exist in heaven, one would think.

@bridgefin

3 жыл бұрын

The angels had a test which forced them to make a choice. Absent that choice there would be no desire to move away from the beauty of God. Yes, those in Heaven will continue to have free will and they will use it to stay exactly where they are.

@MrRezillo

3 жыл бұрын

@@bridgefin I'm not aware God ever imposing any "test" on his angels. You have to wonder, why did a third of all the angels choose to rebel and follow Satan? They must have been unhappy with their present state or perceive it as unjust in some way. Immortal life in the presence of the living God? What could they possibly have gained by going with Satan? What were they hoping to get that they didn't already have? Did you ever wonder if the angels knew about hell and what the consequences would be if they rebelled? Perhaps if they knew they'd be sent to hell for all eternity, they'd have thought twice about rebelling. If they DIDN'T know what the consequences of disobeying God would be, as humans do, then it was a cosmic unfairness on God's part to hurl them into hell. The whole fanciful story makes absolutely no sense. All the more so, since God is omniscient and knew exactly what was going to happen since, being also omniscient, God himself planned it: Satan, hell, fallen angels and all.

@bridgefin

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrRezillo You: You have to wonder, why did a third of all the angels choose to rebel and follow Satan? Me: No kidding. And they knew all of the consequences of their decision so there were no surprises. They are far superior to us in knowledge and they don't suffer from the effects of original sin as we do. They would have known that a single decision against God for them was an irreversible decision. It is suggested that pride was their motivation. I guess I understand this at some level when I commit a sin and risk my own eternal salvation. Stupid and foolish but very popular! You: All the more so, since God is omniscient and knew exactly what was going to happen since, being also omniscient, God himself planned it: Satan, hell, fallen angels and all. Me: Could we look at this differently? I see God inviting us to a banquet of everlasting love with him but he doesn't force us. Love is meaningless if it is forced. And with free will we are all capable of deciding to answer the invitation or not. So God knew that many would refuse his invitation and they would choose to live without him. God was good to extend an invitation to us that he did not have to make. We just have to decide what we want and then live with those consequences.

@MrRezillo

3 жыл бұрын

@@bridgefin With all due respect, your description of the angels here is speculation. Neither you nor I, nor Augustine or Aquinas, nor Martin Luther or Billy Graham know anything about what angels think. From what I recall in the Bible, they're mere messenger boys (or girls; hmm, is there any sexual differentiation with the angels? There's the so-called archangel Michael, but otherwise? They certainly must not have sex organs; what could they do with them, fornicate? I digress). It's at least arguable that they have superior knowledge to humans. You say that the rebelling angels would have known they were making an irreversible decision. That's a huge assumption, but okay. Would they have known what the consequences would be? They may have logically assumed they would have be annihilated, not cast into a fiery pit for all eternity. Did they even know there was such a place as hell? Perhaps God willed it into existence on the fly to punish Satan. More idle speculation, of course. But really, none of this answers the question: why did they rebel? What were they unhappy about that caused them to rise up? Just saying "out of pride" doesn't tell us anything. And join with Satan for what? To get ordered around by him instead of God? The whole story makes zero sense, but it does support the notion that man makes God in his own image, which is what's actually going on here. All for now. Ho, ho, ho!

@bridgefin

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrRezillo What's wrong with speculation? Some things are revealed and we have only hints or nothing to go on for others. But God gave us reason and we use reason to connect the dots which we have. I appreciate a reasonable story which fits together and which sheds light on this subject. The alternative seems to be confusion. Just for the record, angels are a higher form of creation than man because of their spiritual nature. They have no sexuality due to their spiritual nature. Satan was one of them though you seem to treat him as someone separate. The first reality of Hell is not punishment but separation from God and their decision to reject God immediately delivered that. If you think the whole story makes no sense then reflect on that the next time that you sin and separate yourself from God. That also makes no sense but we do it anyway. There is true speculation (guesswork) on what caused some of the angels to rebel but I will spare you that.