In Jumping, riders retire in the ring all the time. We need to accept that option more in the dressage competition ring.

@TopClassDressage

3 жыл бұрын

in jumping riders also beat their horses with sticks and whips and spurs to get them over the jumps, instead of retiring them, so to suggest she should retire as the jumpers......disagree

@spellywelly

3 жыл бұрын

@@TopClassDressage I don’t think anyone could disagree that less than ethical behaviour happens across all disciplines, but it’s a good suggestion nonetheless - we do typically see more retiring in SJ than dressage.

@iimdone

3 жыл бұрын

@@TopClassDressage what lmao

@toddthomason3618

3 жыл бұрын

Topclassdressage@ as an eventer I will say that I do not beat my horse with a crop, or kick it with spurs. In fact I only use Spurs if regular leg aids do not work, even then it is light taps not hard kicks. I do hold a crop for cross country and jumper, but only EVER use it if I absolutely need it. Sadly there are people in the equestrian world who do use spurs and crops incorrectly, but not all of us. Next time please don’t assume we all do this because it is definitely not true :)

@aieshjakhitanea3622

3 жыл бұрын

@@TopClassDressage this also happens in other disciplines. Lets not look at the discipline but at the rider.

The best lesson I ever learned about showing : At your first mistake, you're not going to win shit anyway, so just use the rest of your time to train in the environment and you'll have a better chance next time.

@janets6474

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe so. But if your horse continues to have a problem - STOP. Not every moment is a " training " moment. These horses are clearly distressed and rightfully so because the have had enough abuse. They simply said " ENOUGH ".

@elisabethandersen1102

3 жыл бұрын

@@janets6474 True. I guess I was inferring to standard shoelw jitters.

@janets6474

3 жыл бұрын

@@elisabethandersen1102 😊

@katherinesiegelstein1305

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. They worked through it and ended better than they started. Sometimes going forward is the biggest stress reliever. I think the rider's decision was a good one.

@sarahwagland1559

2 жыл бұрын

@@katherinesiegelstein1305 Glad I'm not your horse.

Why I ended up sending my dressage trainer packing - It was the test and HER screaming commands that were more important than ME & MY BOY. These people need to lighten up

@tofindmrright

3 жыл бұрын

Your coach was not a pro.The pros, Olympians and O judges do not scream at you as a rule. I started out decades ago with a coach who didn’t have an eye, didn’t know thoroughness and my horse and I had to learn harmony. Teaching any new movement and you get resistance, but the pro is happy with two steps... because those two steps will turn into twenty.

@kingfisher9553

3 жыл бұрын

Why I warn novice riders they ought to AVOID CLINICS. In my experience the clinician wants to give every client something big to take home and will push both horse and rider to the red zone to get it. Get a good trainer, go to your lessons, enjoy yourself.

@tofindmrright

3 жыл бұрын

Most clinicians I know will not school novice riders. They will school good riders on young horses though. They are there for another set of eyes then your regular coach. And when you get too tired or you feel like your horse is tired you never go to the red line. You simply say, my horse is tired, that’s enough for today... thank you. No one, even the sometimes crabby Olympic coach Melle ever said boo.

There's a lot of things I don't understand why it's not the norm. I like how you mentioned that too like "why is it not the norm to let the horse calm down and have a moment". I completely agree. How come it isn't the norm? How come it isn't the norm to do proper ground work with horses? How come it isn't the norm to put the horse first at these big events? Horses are animals not machines, you can't just keep pushing them till they break! Good video Btw!

@ranmakuro

3 жыл бұрын

Because money and image. It is a business and not childish pony riding. People in Germany critizising that are being called Wendy riders instantly as if those are mentally retarded and not "adult" enough to accept business is business and horses are things only a few experts know to handle properly.

@kikiza123

Жыл бұрын

money. the answer is always money. the horses cost a lot of money, the shows cost a lot of money, the prize is a lot of money. greed makes the world go round

@questioneverything9535

Жыл бұрын

Judge these events on how the riders work through the bloopers and get back to business. Showing is so stuffy. Horses aren't push-button machines.

@questioneverything9535

Жыл бұрын

​@@kikiza123 greed destroys the horse world

@okiedonner

6 ай бұрын

The thing is the rules say that you have to get into the ring within 60 seconds after the judge rings the bell. This keeps the show on track, and it’s just the same rule for everyone. Also, you have 18-20 seconds at Grand Prix level to get it together or you will be eliminated. In this case the horse may have been completely quiet and lovely until after the judge rang the bell. The horse clearly spooked at the plastic flapping at the end of the arena. Rider chose to try to continue. The other option is to completely quit and keave which may mean the horse won’t ever compete confidently again. Of course I don’t know all the details but the Adequan Global arena is freakin scary to compete in. Better prep may be needed for this horse but I would not be an armchair judge because it takes years of prep to go down centerline in that arena. If you devoted years of time and finally had one big chance (as is the case for done going into this arena) would you throw it all away because your horse spooked at some plastic? Or would you try to get him busy working in the test to hopefully get him over it? I think unless you’ve competed at CDIs you don’t have a lot to say…this wasn’t abuse, at worst it’s misjudging or lack of preparation. I’m speaking from many years of professional horse background…so I’m not an armchair expert…

Thank you so much for giving me a platform to talk about these important topics! Our horses should always take priority over the sport and I hope we begin to see change.

When there are problems in competition, the solution isn’t to stop competitions, but to solve the problems.

If I was a judge I would have pulled this pair. And if I was a scribe I would have walked out of the booth if the judge didn’t

These horses are already mentally scarred from poor management practices and training. The sport needs to change. Great video eloquently put 😍

@janets6474

3 жыл бұрын

That's right. This isn't something that happens overnight. Oh yeah. We can critique this rider. The rider is ULTIMATELY responsible for the wellbeing of the animal. If the rider gets to this level by using unethical and inhumane ways, then they don't deserve to be there.. being a top athlete means you have disciplined yourself to hone your skills and done the work to get there. But when is someone going after the judges? Are they not supposed to critique the riders and horses? I just watched Charlotte DuJardin ride for instructional purposes. The first thing she said was :the horse must carry himself. I ride with my legs off until needed and the reins are light and elastic. I have never seen her clench her legs, spur the horse even slightly aggressive and no yanking on the reins. At one point her horse did a little rear while moving forward. She immediately described how she had asked him to go forward and that was the reason for the reaction. But her riding never changed and the horse was moving more forward but no additional craziness. See, this is how a professional rider should be. To me, she and riders like her are the gold standard and what we should all achieve to be as riders. She said the horse should carry themselves. I also noticed at one point she had gone to the walk for a break. The horse just slightly went behind the vertical, ever so slightly. What I saw was an immediate reaction from her of just slightly asking the horse to go forward in the walk and then the horse relaxed and stretched into a longer frame but staying forward. We should be writing judges and the FEI to start doing something about this injustice.

@keri22443

3 жыл бұрын

It’s really about the rider. I do dressage and my horse is fine. Well I’m not doing this but I WOULD not abuse my boy. I would not overwork and definitely not do something that will impact his mental health.

@Gabrielle937

3 жыл бұрын

The sport will never change, that is the essence of the 'sport'.

@janets6474

3 жыл бұрын

@@Gabrielle937 That's an excuse we should not and cannot accept. Our society keeps quiet when it sees evil and refuses to call it out and require consequences for such behavior.

@sandrarowley983

3 жыл бұрын

Really?

This is a tricky one. I have a dressage horse who I've had for almost 2 years but for about 9months he was sick from a virus so my only work was inhand. Ive done alot of groundwork with him, hacking, desensitisation and hiring venues when no competitions are on to get him comfortable with the environments. At home on a sunny day he is a delighted to ride, if its windy hes a complete spooky sod. I dont avoid windy days though. He won't improve unless i continue to work on relaxation on those days. Hes also attended group lessons at venues to up the atmosphere. He is now at a point where I'm starting to book competitions again thanks to new covid rules. We attended one the other week, a pretty low level test at a venue he has been to perhaps 6 or 7 times for hire an lessons. I arrived with plenty of time so he could take in the atmosphere. I chose to give us extra time in the warmup in the hope I could walk about for 10mins so he could breath and settle. But I know this horse, he went into the warmup like he was walking in hot coals. His neck was about 2inches long and he was looking at everything he had seen on previous occasions. There is not the time or the space for me to totally ignore his behaviour. I have to deal with the situation and make it as pleasant for him as I can so he gains confidence. However he was not going to ride round peacefully like perhaps he had on previous outings. We warmed up for 35mins and at about 25mins he was starting to feel more relaxed but also a little tired cos he had just thrown all his energy into really expressive movement. So I calmly walked him about for 5mins then picked him back up for a final trot rounds. We then entered the indoor arena for our test which he has been in everytime we visited. Half of what I had managed to achieve in the warmup wemt starlight out the window cos was leaving all the other horses and there was suddenly flower pots echoeing voices He did a polite test but was a little sluggish to the leg at times, spooky towards the judges table. Not something he had seen in the indoor before on training days. I couldnt prepare him for that so we had to just quietly go about our test and lose marks for the lack of attention and relaxation towards the judge end of the arena. I wouldnt quit the test as its a learning experience for us both. He wasn't traumatised after. I saluted the judge at the end and was able to leave the arena on a long rein and he recieved sugar lumps , cuddles and a bucket of feed. He happily stood by the trailer munching his net as we washed him off and he then travelled home. Few days later he was taken to another venue for training. He didn't hesitate to go in the trailer so im totally aware that it wasn't that bad for him. I couldn't of prepared him any more and sometimes the training is just getting into the arena and accepting the spooks. Providing you dont get angry and you dont care about the win even a competition can be a useful training exercise. In the video its a shame the horse had such a big melt down in the arena but I dont think she was wrong to continue providing you knew it was just a schooling round after that. Get the horse to the end of the test safely so he knows he can do it and nothing terrible happened. He wasnt whipped or shouted at or harshly kicked with spurs. I think in the moment you have to make a choice of what the horse needs. And if she'd just put her hand up and left the arena the horse wouldn't of been able to experience the arena. His last time in that arena would of been a huge spook and miscommunication thats not a sensible place to finish either. Returning to the warmup to work him harder would be counter productive in my view. I think finishing the test with a salute and a pat and then calmly returning to your stabling is a much kinder approach. At these top levels the horses get to do arena walks the days before the event. There's very few circumstances where you could prepare a horse for that atmosphere so sometimes you just have to attend. If the horse continued to dislike big venues like that then its the riders decision to call it quits and only take that horse to a level it copes with. But without going there you won't know. I expect that rider finished the test disappointed but not angry with the horse and she has probably gone away and considered how she could of prepared him better either in the warmup, or before the spook or just in general training.

I'm looking at the marks and I don't get it. Such a tense horse shouldn't get more than a 5 and a "too tense" in the remarks. It's part of the problem that the judges let riders get away with it.

@DressageHub

3 жыл бұрын

This! ^^^^^

@azariasewell5107

2 ай бұрын

So very true 💯❤️

also as someone else pointed out, there was an normous curtain or plastic sheet that is flapping in the grandstand. This had nothing to do with the pressure she placed on him, he was afraid of that and thats why he was backed off.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I detest competition in the horse world because of these abuses.

@haugmariom6206

3 жыл бұрын

Ggg

@JavierBonillaC

3 жыл бұрын

No you detest competition because you have not succeeded competing.

@jancross516

3 жыл бұрын

@@JavierBonillaC 😂

@e.conboy4286

3 жыл бұрын

@@JavierBonillaC Nope!

@sarahwagland1559

2 жыл бұрын

@@JavierBonillaC Be careful what you choose to worship.

What you said at 3:35...I like you analysis and agree with everything you’ve said. I think the problem lies a lot earlier. He entered so stressed already, he is so short in his neck. He did not have the chance to calm down in the warm up between his rounds. As you have said sourself, he was so much calmer the last round. And as we can see when he had to halt first, he was desperate to stretch the neck but the rider kept a really short rein and his mouthpiece was way too tight. This is not to blame (solely) on the comp, this is clearly a rider applying way too much pressure in all aspects.

@azariasewell5107

2 ай бұрын

Very true 💯

Agreed! Horse’s feelings and state of mind should be important!!

Someone should really point out that at the very beginning of this video there is an enormous curtain or plastic sheet that is flapping in the grandstand. What brainiac thought that putting something like that up was acceptable at a horse show?

@DressageHub

3 жыл бұрын

What Olympian doesn't train for that at am Olympic Qualifier?

@joycee5493

3 жыл бұрын

@@DressageHub ...good point, but they are still horses...with DNA that is highly conserved for self protection. It’s one of the things I love about horses… the fact that they are just one step away… One very small step away from being wild. Having said that, I totally agree with you about trigger stacking. I’m a mare lover ...especially chestnut mares...but mares don’t miss much and I try to explain to people that it’s often not just one thing that a horse spooks at but several things going on at once...and that can include too much training pressure.

@DressageHub

3 жыл бұрын

You are the Equestrian equivalent of he's just not that into you. Gaslighting is not real.

@joycee5493

3 жыл бұрын

@@DressageHub Not sure what you mean by that but .....

@nicolaburnett8995

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly. That was the root cause.

That poor horse it's trying it's best to get away from pressure and backing up to try and get the bit off him where he can ease his neck. These riders and I don't mean this in a cruel way, but they need to have a bit placed in their mouths, have their chins tied to their necks then asked to run for a block. I guarantee you that would end a lot of this over flexing of these necks after some of these riders passed out from lack of oxygen or got sick.

@jarethadunavant5256

Жыл бұрын

YES... you are Soooo correct. Riders need to feel what the horse feels. I'm sure they would find a better, more humane riding skill.

@azariasewell5107

2 ай бұрын

💯💯💯

The idea of dreaasage was once upon a time the gymnastic of horses for a longer life. Modern dressage has nothing to do with gymnastic anymmore. Modern sport horses walk on their shoulders with spectacular movements under much pressure. And they are most trained with hyperflexion. Most riders hold the horses' heads down with short rains and using the kandarre. There are alternative ways of riding. Dr Rainer Klimke had a totally different style of dressage. Or compare the movements of dressage horses with the horses of Bent Branderup or Philip Karl.

@iimdone

3 жыл бұрын

well actually, as of 2021 thats changing now. they arent trained in hyper-flexion as they used to be maybe 4 or so years ago

@cromana5574

3 жыл бұрын

Yes,! I was thinking the same thing. It looks very hard on the horse.

@janetannerevans2320

Жыл бұрын

actually it was military training regarding riders engaged in sword fighting. It's beginning had nothing to do with gymnastics.

@morethanmeetstheeye1355

Жыл бұрын

@@janetannerevans2320 yes. This. The history of modern day dressage was to train very strong and solid horses to perform movements that would strike forward with either front leg, to kick backward with either (or both) legs. As well, rearing up and stomping down on an opponent. The side steps were to protect itself and it’s rider in battle. The short compact pivots were, again, done to position the rider for the best maneuverability to fight from any point of their crowded and loud sounds of war. I became interested in modern dressage because of my love of historical War Horses.

You can clearly see there is a breeze and a lot of movement in the plants/decorations and plastic sheeting. This led to the tension and overall failure of the test. The rider tried to get the horse to focus on moving forward and I didn't see anything abusive nor inhumane in her attempts. You can see the rider place her hand on his neck while he is backing up to comfort and encourage him. Eventually he has the courage to move forward and completes the test. She could have retired, but she knows her horse better than we do. Perhaps this was a teaching tool as most horse shows tell you where your training has holes.

@questioneverything9535

Жыл бұрын

She may have wanted to end on a good note, not when the horse did something wrong.

Great commentary!! I agree!! Nothing to do with the level of difficulty, its about behavioral understanding and setting priorities. Some horses simply can't handle the atmosphere at these shows and to accept that and just say ok this horse doesn't have the psychological makeup of a show horse, maybe I'll just train at home then. Horses also pick up on our own stress and they mirror us. So it's also about being a calm and fair leader to them and taking care of our own mental and emotional health, so we can then take better care of them and their needs as well.

It's a tough call. It seems like this venue in particular is really threatening to a lot of horses, but correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, so is it the venue or just the horse/rider combos that day? Don't know. Sometimes we get out there and our horse just picks a thing to lose their mind over, and my answer to that would be to forget about the score of the test and help my horse get past the spook and learn to handle the stressor without an accident. The difference is, I have a green mare, so I expect that sometimes new things will heat her up and it's just part of it. By the time you get to GP, our expectation is that the horse is a "pro" and can handle new situations, I think? Is it the training, or soreness? Could be. Is it that as a sport we are breeding horses for look and movement and losing some of the stability upstairs? Could be. It could be all of it. I won't judge this rider, I think if my horse was that cranked I would get her to walk past the spook and then reward immediately by bowing out and not inviting another incident, but some schools of thought would say that perpetuates the problem. Very hard to say from where I'm sitting, but it is happening a LOT and that deserves a hard look.

@kellynrenee5667

3 жыл бұрын

I'd also like to know how many of these horses get turnout and social interaction with other horses. I have a feeling that's part of the puzzle but what do I know, I'm an AA lol.

@mrtequus1

3 жыл бұрын

@@kellynrenee5667 I worked in 2011-2013 at the facility in NYC where Holzer is based out of. I can say that none of the horses in her training program get turnout, and the facility itself (part of NYC Parks Department) only had 6 paddocks that were each roughly 30 feet square, and those paddocks were rotated among about 75 horses daily. Holzer’s stable only did lunging, hand walking or riding.

@e.conboy4286

3 жыл бұрын

@@mrtequus1 Oh my Lord! That seems cruel.

I agree. I am still young, but I really think that our sport needs to change. It needs to start by putting the horses and their needs first. And you should be allowed to have a moment to calm your horse down. And when it is clearly nog your day, to check out without loosing face. I love horseriding because I get to be a team with another living being. I'd stop immediately if I was expected to hurt my partner in any way!

@DressageHub

3 жыл бұрын

You are the change. It can only come from the younger generation. Horse people are slow adapters in general and the successful riders are set in their way. The only way to push for change is through a younger fresher voice. Welcome to Dressage Hub!

I always remember reading one of Alois Podhajsky books where a helicopter landed not far from him riding a horse. The horse remained calm because of the relationship between him and his rider. Alois went on and talked about the trust you must have This is something that should be a the front of your mind when interacting with horses if the horse see you as a good leader he will try his best for you but you must also listen to him and be prepared to change. I know the pressure of competition but it’s what you have to live with. A day before major competition horse goes lame that’s it horses health always should be your priority

@sandrarowley983

3 жыл бұрын

And in developing that trust, he would have gone through some moments like in this dressage test, where the horse displays fear. He would have developed the trust by working through those moments so the horse gets to know that it is OK, nothing bad is going to happen, I can trust this person's judgment, they will look out for me. Training is all about communication, and teaching the horse,

Thank you for putting forward this video. This performance is at the very least disturbing, at the very worst, obscene in every sense of the true meaning of 'dressage'. This verges quite alarmingly towards an animal welfare issue, made even worse by the lack of morals and leadership in the ring-side personnel who watched this travesty of a test and allowed it to carry on. Modern dressage is beginning to sound as many alarm bells as the Big Lick atrocities to which the Tennessee Walking Horse is subjected to. Or if it isn't, then it jolly well should do. Modern dressage needs to take a long, hard look at itself in the mirror.

You tell em!!!! And thank you for doing so. I'm so glad you spoke up for the horses.

In dressage the main thing is to keep going through the test even if your horse bucks,rears,spooks,etc.

Keep up the good work Dressage Hub.

Something that's the norm in some places in the world is to let the next combination enter the outskirts of the arena while the previous combination is still in the ring. That way, the horse is allowed to have a look around the environment before the test begins.

You right about all this points in this video. Thank you to post it and for the time you take to joint your point of view, you resume perfectly a big part of the problems and I hope that a lot of people will make reflections about it and modify some automatic way of riding and treating their horses for the well being of horses but also theirs. Riding a horse is not a fight even in higher levels. Without respect of the needs of the horses, without intimidated, smile or to be able to switch yourself in place of your horse, you will never have the best of him. An happy horse will give you all he can with his heart and that's begin when you arrive near him, when you brush him, when you take care of him before and after riding... It doesn't matter that your horse is warm blood or quickly afraid for exemple, we all have the power to change that with taking time with him if our implication is sincerely and if I can say that it is by my own experience.

There will always be abuse when there’s some kind of prize involved

@e.conboy4286

3 жыл бұрын

Good God, I pray not!

Horses are not machines. That being said some people give not even one shred of care that they are hurting or damaging their horse. It Is All About Winning. I've seen horses in Western Pleasure Comps that looked like they were competing in a Western Torture Comp. Or TWH forced to walk in weighted acid laced shoes. Humans are the cruelest Species.

I'm glad these horses are fighting back, I really worry about happens when they leave the ring.. Ashley trained at the same farm I did for a while, and she is rough.

@DressageHub

3 жыл бұрын

I am not sure how people don't believe that when I point out that all of her students have blood/wounds from spurs and to make it worse the students of those students do too! Equine Canada thinks I am the problem ... 😂

@e.conboy4286

3 жыл бұрын

Ooooh! Poor horses.

@niveusnimbus

3 жыл бұрын

I mean the way she was kicking the horse with spurs in the ring.. Wonder what's happening when nobody is watching. Poor horse.

@laurensingleton1343

2 жыл бұрын

I actually worked at a barn that was leased and managed by her husband, as well as knew prior clients and witnesses of Ashley's training methods. Rough is an understatement.

We do our best! We work with our dance partners and best friends every day! We mean no harm and want them to be beautiful through positive training. They are fight or flight animals and any environment may set them off. Sad that one video is used to support your hypothesis. Ride a year in our boots and there may be a healthier perspective for all commenting.🙏🥰

@TheOldandslow

Жыл бұрын

I hope to see more empathy from all dressage riders towards their horses and the long game of training. When brutal training methods get rewarded in the ring it is hard to refute the results to the ignorant person. I'm not saying all the dressage riders are ignorant I am saying that many dressage riders get blinded by what the judge's reward without considering what is actually classically correct or even humane.

I would love to see a side by side comparison, of his other sleeping round, so we can really see the difference. It doesn't need to be anything more than a high amount of oats, and a day off. I used to work with racetrotters. And I learned that some horses must be worked every day, or they will go ballistic, the more off days they have, the more built up anxiety or energy they need to release. While other horses, just gets calmer and calmer, the more off days they have.. So it's hard to say certainly, what did trigger this horse, without knowing how it functions. Yeah we can assume that it is been chased around and beaten, but without evidence, that's all it is, assumptions. Does it look like horse and rider is 1, floating around the arena. No, it looks like a person battling a wild animal.. It's sad to see this, but as you say, the competition is also to blame, as not riding, means loosing your placement. But also the mentality, to ride your horse through it, I have been told to take charge, and just work the horse, get its focus back on me. Like that will help the horse to trust me... I once saw this pony on a local show, and it wasn't anything flashy, but the way it flowed from one transition to another, it was effortless, it was beautiful. 🤩 I told the rider it was amazing. She didn't seem to care about my opinion. I guess only the score is important, and flashy wins.. 😕 Here's my "guru" it's really all about the horse... kzread.info/dash/bejne/aIisqatsoLy4nbg.html If you watch carefully, you will see that she's unable to stop herself from using the leg aid.. And people wonder why horses become dead to pressure.. 🙄

I have watch your video for the first time and you have explained things so perfectly that I wish more coaches trainers instructors and even owners would apply this your knowledge to their disciplines. This is important and I will stress this knowledge to my students. To encourage the mental kindness to the horse not just ride for their needs.

Thank you. 🙏 I love this commentary.

I totally agree. Back when I was doing little high school competitions, I was jumping a course that was a few inches higher than my horse was comfortable with at the time (we had practiced the height but I realized mid course that we had not practiced it enough to be show ready for it). We knocked down a few rails and had a refusal, which at that show didn't immediately disqualify you. She then half jumped the next fence, with her front legs over and her back legs still behind. Panicked, she backed up bringing the pole between her legs toward us and knocking over one of the jump stands. Luckily after that she remained still (I'm super proud of her for not rearing or bolting). At that point I was more interested in quality training than the competition. I petted her and waited for her to walk carefully over the pole wreckage. I asked the judge if I may continue and they nodded. I circled and picked up a good canter and finished the course as calmly as possible. We trotted out and I pet the ever lovins on her then got off and walked her out on foot.

Rare to see such an advanced horse so anxious. Was it by any chance bought fully trained and given to an inexperienced rider? Sad to see a good horse spoilt

Thank you!! Ppl focus so much on their horse’s physical health that they often use their physical state as a rebuttal when they’re confronted about their mental state. Physical AND mental health should be equally emphasized!!!

That horse was pissed. The way he kicked his hind legs in pure anger. We ourselves have days when we are just not in the mood to do something.

You are so spot on! 🙏🏻

Well said!

I’m 2 years late, however, a lot of us are trained to continue going and not allow the horse to get away with this behavior. We all become anxious at some point. Most likely, in the ring. Proceeding on calmly without abusive behaviors is not outside the norm.

Well done ! Brilliant. Seeing this was disturbing..... Like you said.... finishing the test was her priority! Hi from Zimbabwe

The entire point of competition is to demonstrate the beautiful, wonderful trust and partnership between horse and rider, whatever the discipline, but I think particularly in dressage. And then a rider must ask themselves- do I need the entire world to witness this relationship, or is it enough that my horse and I know what we have? At NO POINT is the competition more important to the horse's welfare. This is heartbreaking. I know I am 3 years late to this discussion, but I only just found this.

It has never been about the horse or the happiness and well being of the horse. it has always been about the egos of the riders and owners of these abused horses.

Ty, Dressage has come down on riders and owner for what you are talking about. Ty.

Thought it looked like my mare, a descendant from Donnerhall. She’s quite jumpy and nervous but we’re not even riding due to a sensitive leg.

Thank you

100% not arguing with your assessment, but at one point early on and getting into the ring it looks like Valentine is legit spooking over something. It's windy, and that moment of fear where Holzer didn't take a second before entering the ring to give him a chance to breathe is what tipped him over the edge I think. It led to a spook early into the test, if you look at his head/face/ears he was focused on something scary. I get not wanting to give in to that behavior but yeah, having to prioritize the test is just- it's not okay. I'm honestly expecting to be chewed out for my opinion but, just wanted to drop in my 2 cents. TYVM for these vids! I recently got back into riding after a 7-year break and switched my focus from jumpers/eventing to dressage and they've helped me understand a few things here and there.

I think the rider stayed very calm and reassured the horse that everything is okay. Often this is the best way to behave.

@saarlooswolfhund6237

2 жыл бұрын

Obviously u understand nothing about riding

One of my horses is a direct Sir Donnerhall I offspring like Valentine. And I know some other siblings aswell. They are sometimes different, to say it in a nice way. Very tricky to always find the fine line to keep them supple, thorough and comfortable whilst being concentrated and focused. Sometimes my boy works calm and focused. And sometimes it feels like sitting on a tense, absolute nutcase without any changing circumstances.

This horse needs some serious stress reducing supplements. It’s so tense and high strung it’s sad that the mare has to be like this.

Dressage is meant as the highest art of harmony in "invisible" communication between the horse and his rider - the base is trust, never a fight The rider has to learn how to fight his own deficiency and never to fight against instincts But for that it needs respect and humility for the horse and that's rare in our days In former times a horse was a treasure and meant to be successful in a war, to travel safely or to make the daily hard work on a farm or ranch Today this amazing souls are a not more than a tool for ego sports The horse of Friedrich II - Condé became 42 years - just think about...what a bond between a human and a horse grows over more than 40 years

Hi,yes you are so right,but sometimes people are not aware of the horses signs and signals that they give them even at home in their own yards,and do ground work the help them achieve body and mind relaxation,I mention what brilliant work that Tristin Tucker and Warwick Schiller does for high level dressage and the competitive world,🐎

Brava! Brava! Brava! Wake up Dressage - you're losing fans & potential fans at an alarming rate. The cruel training methods, bits & Rolkur needs to stop ASAP. Don't even get me started on Shock Spurs 🤮🤮🤮

I have pushed my horse to the threshold once. Only once. He buckled, pulled his head in, and began bouncing. Ita a wonder I stayed on. He no longer wanted to do what I wanted him to. I got angry. I dismounted and walked away. It was the wrong reaction to yell at him and storm off, yes, but it was better than pushing him and fighting. There is a time and a place for "winning the fight" and establishing yourself as the dominant part of the dynamic. But that was not one of those times. We both had a moment to cool off, and when I returned I check him over and apologised. He wasn't hurt, but I cooled him off and wrapped up all the same. He had made it clear that he had had enough, and pushing him again would only make it worse. I have never pushed him that hard again. I realised that day, while watching him during my pout, that he wasn't being mean. I had hurt him, emotionally. He was upset and had no other way to tell me that he didn't want to do this anymore. I make a point to listen now. Once I feel him start to tense up, I release his head for a moment and walk. I sooth him before he freaks out, and then continue. And I would not hesitate to halt and stand in the middle of a competition on a long reign if he did this. Screw the competition, I want him to continue trusting and loving me. I don't want a horse that is scared to speak out the only way he knows how. It should be ok to halt in the arena to rest. To give the horse their head and take a moment to reset, and then continue without penalty.

so well said

The problem looks like she's almost using draw reins

This is how horses learn helplessness.

This horse is terrified and can't breathe. Probably hates his job. This is sad

I'm to the point now where I really dislike dressage.

The Industry needs to relieve these horses, they to need a vacation too. We as humans tend to be selfish. Though the horses have everything an Equine needs except time off to Horse!

Is it just me, or is the rider using her spurs continously? If yes, why is that even allowed?

Can the FEI be contacted regarding situations like this? The horse got worse as it moved on, no horn to stop the ride. Allowing a horse strung this right can not continue and these riders HAVE TO BE BANNED for at least one year for abuse

LS What happened to this horse at home????????????????????????

Just a question... What is the rider supposed to do? Get stressed themselves and make it worse?

Another reason for over stacking in this horse could have been from rapid withdrawal of illicit medications, dehydration, or both. Both can cause psychosis. The rules for dressage came from the Spanish Lippizaners trained for battle. The horse and rider become one. They don't allow them to calm down prior to entering the ring because it shows lack of control from the rider and compliance from the horse. You are 100% correct. Change, especially in upper level dressage and show jumping need changed. The reason she forced him into the arena and pushed to compete is because she wanted to WIN. She had many investors, trainers, owners as well as the Olympic team counting on her. She lost the reason she started riding in the 1st place, her love of horses. 10 years ago, in her training, she would never have allowed that to happen.

Not always true. I've never laid a hand or mistreated my horse. And he is anxious and nervous a lot. Its mostly his breed.

@DARKhorses73

3 жыл бұрын

@EquestriaX 🤣🤣🤣 I have an Arabian cross. His energy is insane. I think he would rather run a race.

@debrabiderman4275

3 жыл бұрын

@EquestriaX I owned an an Arabian for 20 years. His favorite word was run. But he wasn't nervous. I found competitive trail the best sport for both of us. It is All about the Horse. Getting him in s h ape good enough to do a 25 mile ride in 4 hours. With holds and vet checks. If the horses back was sore or touchy it was points off. Over the rocks too fast and a get a rock bruise points off. P and Rs too high the Horse gets pulled. I loved it because it used up the energy that made my boy so Hot. Sure I could have forced him into a ring and learned my gaits and my leads but it would have been a terrible thing to do to a horse who just lived to go. Not always fast but long! Trails and rivers mountains and meadows. My memory is of Bongo standing at the top of a cornfield with his head held high , nostrils flared eyes wide as he finished a 2 mile canter and the smell of Autumn in the air. Oh that lovely face. I miss him so.

@e.conboy4286

3 жыл бұрын

@@debrabiderman4275 Oh darling Debra, I grieve with you, I’m thankful for you sharing such beautiful memories of your beloved and magnificent Bongo. I’m certain he adored you, too. They are wrong who said “Time heals all wounds.” Never had a horse but rode in college. Miss it but don’t expect to ride again at 83 y/o. Counting on you to enjoy riding for me? Best wishes, Elizabeth

You're absolutely right. The horses well being should always come first, once we use them to compete for our own pride.

I’m afraid the well being of the horse went out the window quite a while ago. Think how much money has been invested leading up to this ride? Nuff said.

Great job and well put. I see no advantage to dressage movements applied in this manner. The sport lost its focus.

Has Anyone interviewed the rider?

I think this commentary was a bit judgemental .one must also keep in mind that many of today's show horses are bred on the hot side. I've seen these horses spook at something in the morning and not be right for the rest of the day! Do note the fluttering plastic over the stands!

@DressageHub

3 жыл бұрын

Did you watch the original trigger stacking video? My gp horse was bred hot and I didn't chase it around the arena in a state to terror.

@horsesensetv1259

3 жыл бұрын

This was a purely scientific commentary and dressage horses are not bred for 'hotness' makes sense for eventing or racing but not dressage. Dressage needs an intelligent horse who is capable of learning and to perform precise movements when asked so breeding hot dressage horses is incorrect.

@suefranks2534

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your thoughtfulness in pointing out the obvious, where as I have noticed Dressage Hub has an agenda against top riders.

@DressageHub

3 жыл бұрын

@@suefranks2534 I love it when random people on the internet tell me how I think and what I am doing. Good talk.

@nicolab8608

3 жыл бұрын

@@suefranks2534 you mean the agenda of top riders being so desperate to win and desperate to be at the top that the pressure gets to them and when it all boils down to one moment they would rather do anything it takes to finish a test rather then assessing the situation and looking at the damage they are causing by continuing? Tense horse. No relaxation. No through to contact through to back working properly. Rider puts more pressure to get what they want. Its a shit show. All been there. Most of us learn from our mistakes. How do u think the next test is going to go. They are living animals with thoughts and emotions. They are allowed to express themselves. The arseholes that don't listen don't deserve the horse in the first place. Basics 101 right there. Don't need to be a prix grand rider for that. Good on you dressage hub. Stoked that you can speak up about this stuff

Yes totally agree

SPOT ON GIRL!!!

That poor horse the needs to time to rest that horse is so anxious and he so stressed out he needs time to relax

I've few problems with dressage, until I see top level horses in a rolkur frame for more than a minute. And... if it takes more than ONE bit and a LONG shank bit to control the horse, then this is NOT something the animal is willingly doing. I've no problem with a strong bit to keep a horse from bucking me off, or running away with me in a hunt field, or to keep control of a super forward eventing horse on the cross-country stage at its event. But if competitive horses NEED harsh/multiple bits to do high level (or any level) dressage ... how can we argue that the horses love (even LIKE) their jobs.

There is no point at which the competition is more important than the horse. Whether it is dressage, jumping, western pleasure,or vaulting. The horse must come first. Always. It's why when I has a horse I only did competitive trail and Hunter paces. All of which had vet checks. In competitive trail even a touchy back would get you pulled. No horse no rider.

I would have taken him out right away . We never really know how they're going to react even with the best of training ....I guess that's what makes it "fun" . He's still beautiful .

Years ago when I used to show English and western- if my horse, Willie- was in the ring and he wasn’t having it- I’d go to the center of the arena and we were done with the class. This was in the 80s and 90s. Sometimes you need to give them a break. There will be other shows and other days.

The horses disobedience appeared to go on longer than 20 sec. Which would mean elimination. I'm sure if the rider asked to be excused the judge at C would have agreed.

Trigger stacking. A horse can be accommodated to wind, flags, curtains, noise ... but you apply too much pressure (spurs and tight pressurized mouth with limited visibility, evoking adrenalized mode while applying severe restriction on free movements) and the frustration of the horse will throw all the previous accommodations to wind, flags, curtains, noise ... away. Why some people cannot understand that concept? It is something every rider experienced at some point. No? A GP horse has seen flapping noisy flags and commercial banners zillion times. I am glad we have a term for it - trigger stacking. Will it change to dressage world? I doubt it. It has been 30 years from the first scandal on rollkur and it only became normalized.

Yes! Agreed the sport as a whole would need to change so as to discourage the negative behaviors we see displayed. This is true of any equestrian sport - dressage is not alone in this. One thing I’ve yet to hear mentioned is how the mental state of the Rider can negatively affect the horse. Those of us with strong connections with our horses know if we’ve had a bad day, are angry, upset or anxious, it is not productive to ride as our horses can sense our emotions. An anxious Competitor brings all that “baggage” into the saddle with them and the result is usually a very tense, anxious horse. A horse spooks, rider panics, horse panics, rider panics…you get the point! End result = crappy ride.

Absolutely!! Where is the team spirit between horse and rider these days!!

A great dressage rider and a well trained, comfortable hhorse can do this with a snaffle bit and no stress.

A blue tongue should result in disqualification. I would also like all relevant aspects of the curb bit used to be documented if there's a blue tongue. My guess is that longer shanks on bits with thinner mouth pieces, as well as a downturned port, are more likely to lead to anoxia.

I used to compete in dressage. At certain arenas he would spook like crazy and I either retired/was disqualified. It's obvious that this horse was spoiling at the flapping plastic covering the stands. And some times it is good to push through so the horse learns to trust the rider, it's all ok. Spur marks and and blood in the mouth; well each horse is checked after the ride to look for these signs. If any are found then it's immediate disqualification. I had a brilliant trainer, we were all about the welfare of the horse. I had a Dutch Warmblood from when he was 4, he grew up and out and we had some scary moments but just went at his pace. Showjumping and Tennessee walking horse competitions/Saddlebreds have far worse training methods

@DressageHub

3 жыл бұрын

You can check out the hot topics tab on our site for pics of all the horses who should have been eliminated but weren't

I dread to think what she did after this 😞

I agree!

Stupid people believing stupid trainers.... It's in all disciplines..... Arrogancey and pride versus humblness and partnership. Thx for the video. Many times it's stable owners bringing trainers who stroke their ego and use every excuse for not attaining high scores because it's never their fault - how could it be when they've invested so much money and executed everything the trainer told them to do... Everyone's blameless but the poor horse.

Pure greed. When money is involved the health and well-being of rider and horse is of little consequence.

Horses have good days and bad days..just like us. You mentioned that you didn't see the warm-up, etc... and somebody said that there was a tarp blowing. I absolutely dislike when someone sees a video and decides to make comments about the horse and rider without actually being at the event.

@DressageHub

4 ай бұрын

That's a reach

Poor valentine such a handsome boy so sad to see him in discomfort and unhappy

Sick!

agree 100%!!

Just remember and take heed. Everything this horse does is not his fault! The fault lies with bed trainers, bad methods and techniques and poor riding. It’s NEVER the horse’s fault.

I completely agree! I compete on Dressage and me and my horse have been trained to ENJOY. (Ofc we’d love to win, but I don’t push him) Thanks to this we won most of the competitions I took place, because both of us are happy and we enjoy competing. I use the regulatory equipment but, as I say, if everything is well used then there’s no risk for any damages. Also when I am on competitions I always pet my horse and I award him a lot. People say that I am not normal. Those are the “”horse lovers”” LOL

Clearly the horse is scared of that big tent with loose sides fluttering in the wind amd probably making noise.

The horse should always come before a show. It's also disappointing how many riders, watchers, judges, etc. say that the only solution to a "spook" is to force forward. Pressuring forward as the only option is trapping the horse. Let them, and you, process a situation. Let them take a breath, relax, and the same goes for you. Your stress/anger effects them, too. Granted, I have a Mini, but I ground drive him and he puts the breaks on sometimes or doesn't want to go forward. We stop, process, and move on. I don't have him with his chin 4" from his neck, either. Rollkur, or even just consistent brutal contact that leads to this excessive frothing, is disgusting and I don't understand why it has become the only option for dressage riders. A horse that is listening/submissive, something that is judged in dressage, does not need that intense contact. You should be able to let your horse have their head. I understand gentle contact, but not this strangle-the-horse contact. Yikes

I show dog's, have since 1998, I can and will say, the safety of the dog comes first. I feel it is about time equestrian owners and riders alike stood up for their passion of these sports with their animals safety being first. If people start making the executive decision to pull their animals from an even, while refusing to enter the next event, these organizations will take notice. They won't make money if people are not paying the fees. Owners and riders alike need to learn to put the safety and welfare of the animals first. I've pulled my dog's from several shows for being lame (hurting a leg during play just before a show) because my animals safety comes first. You're also not allowed to show a lame or injured animal