I’m a simple man. I see Dr. Mike, I touch myself.

@Doombotino

14 күн бұрын

indeed, although im starting to develop a resistance to his hairy grippers

@jarrod1687

14 күн бұрын

Dr Mike's fanbase are a bunch of sexual deviates...... exactly how I like it

@Boom_IX

14 күн бұрын

W man

@BrettC-cy6tn

14 күн бұрын

It’s like his head is naturally oiled up, my pee pee can’t take it 😩

@Answeriz42

14 күн бұрын

Mind-penile connection

Dr mike on his own channel: 🩺🤡💪 Dr mike on other channels: 🧠

@emmanuelmunoz5430

14 күн бұрын

Yeah I do see it, He is just having fun while giving good information. On other channels he is trying to give the respect the audience and the creator deserves.

@pnkrckmom

14 күн бұрын

😅

@tomjones8235

14 күн бұрын

Yes. I have learned a lot from Dr. Mike on his own channel, but some of the schtick is getting old. Real old.

@locdogg86

13 күн бұрын

I think that’s how he really is, not quite that bad but he does like to joke around a lot on podcasts.

@codybolo7803

13 күн бұрын

​@@tomjones8235 you must be fun at parties 🤓🤓

I think the background music should be lower it's a bit noisy Everything else is perfect

@greenwavefitness7545

13 күн бұрын

Cutting the background music would be extraordinarily welcome

@ParkerBG

9 күн бұрын

Disagree

@wolffofcinema3448

8 күн бұрын

@@ParkerBGI disagree with your disagreement

This was a great discussion but DAMN that background music is distracting

@TheTykus

7 күн бұрын

Too percussive or something

@johnlesoudeur3653

6 күн бұрын

More than distracting...totally irritating. I had to turn it off and went to subtitles.

A gentlemanly discussion between two hosses is most welcome. I appreciate the discussion, especially the acknowledgment of the difference in the tolerance for type 1 error between scientific and coaching contexts.

Drop the background music

@DILFDylF

13 күн бұрын

Disagree, I think it would be easier to focus if instead of dropping the music, they instead overlapped 3 separate tracks and pitch shifted them to cover different frequencies, and then muted the vocal track.

@Dionysos_____Alters

12 күн бұрын

@@DILFDylF So? Its still distracting. Like if you speak to a person, you listen to music in the background? Nope

@R3dCol0r

12 күн бұрын

@@Dionysos_____Alters adhd much? Of course people have background music on when talking. You never had a conversation when a radio is on or a tv? Never went to a bar or sat outside a pub?

@Dionysos_____Alters

11 күн бұрын

@@R3dCol0r Yep. No, usually I dont have anything in the background. Btw ADHD people tend to be more focused in situations of chaos and loud noises😄

@stevend481

9 күн бұрын

​@@R3dCol0r lol wut? What benefit does music add? This isn't a bar. Does joe rogan put music on during his podcasts? We're trying to listen to the convo, not listen to music

I see Dr Mike I click

@user-ii7xc1ry3x

14 күн бұрын

Same, The Thing was always my favourite out of the 4.

@arisschnelldorfer9441

14 күн бұрын

Same here 😅

@PXO005

14 күн бұрын

@@user-ii7xc1ry3xit appears the thing got a lot more moisturised and lost a lot of its pigments

@cyber_syndicate2920

14 күн бұрын

Fr tho

Need more of these healthy debates

I'll always like being sore after lifting lol.

I agree with Dr. Mike Israetel on this one.

@flabio7074

14 күн бұрын

I’m actually using the app and his heuristic has been working really well for me. I’m training some body parts much more and some much less, and my results overall have improved greatly.

Great discussion!

I only know that no matter if the hypertrophy occurs even more when I'm plenty sore all the time, I need time in my life when I can do other stuff than recover from gym. So autoregulating soreness when it doesn't subside at all and is too intense, becomes something that allows life outside gym.

Amazing and informative video.

Thanks for making this video, I have been wondering about the actual mechanism behind soreness for a bit.

I love not being able to sit down without effort. 👌

This is such a cool discussion to see 2 Ph.D.'s talk about the research in there field :D

To me, soreness is one of the best part of lifting. It's a reminder of my hard work and I has helped me a lot of time to analize how to bulld my program. For example, my bicep are extremely hard to fatigue and sore (and that's true for a lot of people), so i started working them more often and with a very full ROM. Now they're growing much faster, all thanks to soreness. From personal experience, the only part of my body that can be almost not sore while still growing a lot is my back, but maybe it's just genetics.

@LeGou

Күн бұрын

Sounds like you need to do a proper deadlift day lol .

@the_nerd_showtv5562

Күн бұрын

@@LeGou I did but honestly, deadlift is not a good hypertrophic exercise, and I don't have enough weight at my home gym to do it properly

I have been lifting for 27 years and one of my rules that I never break is never working out when any particular muscle is sore. It has been a highly effective rule for me.

@johannesschmitz6370

7 күн бұрын

Do you mean to not workout at all until youre free from soreness or not workout the sore muscle but the unsore muscles can be worked on?

@Jackjack1978.

7 күн бұрын

@@johannesschmitz6370 Correct, workout only what is 100% free from soreness:) In my experience, I would say that you are sabotaging gains if you do not allow a particular muscle group to completely heal. And by heal, I mean, no soreness whatsoever. I want to be 100% when I hit that muscle again Even if that throws off my schedule.

@metalmarten3478

6 күн бұрын

​@@johannesschmitz6370wondering the same thing. Not working out at all if ANY muscle at all is sore seems... well.

We all love doctor Mike!❤

Lengthened partials? What are those? If only this channel had someone who could explain this mysterious concept

@MrMariYTBE

14 күн бұрын

Partial reps might be best for muscle growth. A meta-analysis by Wolf and colleagues in 2023 found that compared to using a full range of motion, doing lengthened partials, or essentially half reps in a lengthened position of a movement, could actually lead to 5 to 10% more muscle growth. However, a big limitation of this analysis was that they only had three studies comparing lengthened partials to a full range of motion. With that being said, there have been two more studies since then, one published and one unpublished, that have compared lengthened partials to a full range of motion in the calves, glutes, and hamstrings respectively, finding more favorable growth using lengthened partials. This is actually in line with much of the evidence out there comparing shorter muscle length training to longer muscle length training. Specifically, we have eight studies comparing longer muscle length partials to shorter muscle length partials, with seven finding a benefit in terms of hypertrophy to lengthened partials and the eighth study finding no difference. Likewise, we have two studies comparing the seated calf raise to the standing calf raise, or a more shortened exercise for the gastrocnemius to a more lengthened exercise. One study by Koshida and colleagues and one from our own lab both found the more lengthened exercise, the standing calf raise, leads to more gastrocnemius hypertrophy. So, try half reps in the lengthened position-that's why.

@seethe313

14 күн бұрын

lengthened partials as I understand them is taking the muscle from its most elongated state to partially contracted. One of the easiest ways to illustrate this is to do bicep curls where the arm is fully extended and to curl halfway. The elongation focusing on the eccentric especially is believed to be one of the most effective ways to stress the muscle.

@TypicallyUniqueOfficial

14 күн бұрын

@@MrMariYTBE he’s joking. Milo Wolf is one of the researchers for progressing narrative of lengthened partials.

@faithnfitnessguykk9569

14 күн бұрын

Dude, not everyone gets a good joke. But hey, you did get a good lesson from those who only have a left side of a brain.

@curlyheadnato

14 күн бұрын

i dont think they understood the joke

I'm not a scientific study, but I've noticed what Dr Mike was saying in my own training. No soreness means I'm going to light and just don't see improvement. Too much soreness means I'm not recovering and start accruing systemic fatigue which leads to a crash and not improving. The balance is a little sore, that gets better before the next set or you push that set a day or just lift lighter/less that one set. It's all about personal ability to recover and we are all individuals

As a fast twitch muscle fiber athlete who played at the college level, I can attest that I get sore AF from lifting. Always thought it was because I was going harder than everyone else, but Mike’s explanation makes sense since I was the most fast twitch muscle fiber guy on the team

solid discussion. with the uncertainty here, defaulting to the logbook seems like way to go, i.e., progressive overload, as always, reigns supreme.

I’m feeling good sore right now. Just the perfect amount. I’ll be good to go tomorrow. Debating whether it’ll be a leg day or a shoulder day. Also considering trying an ab session. Dr. Mike does those ab machines at the gym actually work?

All I can say is that for the first time in my lifting experience (nearly 10 years, on and off). The past training cycle (10 weeks so far) I've grown like never before because of really increasing the stimulus, reaching near failure/failure with long-length partials, and sticking to this 4x a week. Every week I've managed to get sore and see the growth. If I dropped the stimulus (volume or frequency) I think I'd stall. I'm already struggling to keep this up but now it's easier to identify why - I struggle to eat enough. However, trying to get sore (with good exercise selection, technique etc) has fixed my early intermediate plateaus like never before.

Incredible

@19:00 I'm not this person, but this is me also. Bro split has worked well for me to accumulate more weekly volume, and now I can do 2 sets per body part twice a week, and seem to be recovering well at the moment, but still not able to do more hitting a muscle twice a week vs 1

Team Dr Mike 🎉🎉

Why have fix training days? Why not just train when not sore anymore?

I dont know the truth, but in my experience, quality rest n protein determine how fast my soreness would be gone.. lack of sleep n insufficient quality protein, made soreness last longer

Sometimes I do bench and I feel absolutely nothing even though I can only do 10-14 reps. Makes it hard to see if my form is good if the muscle doesn't feel worked

@jokecukie

10 күн бұрын

This video should help. The, talk about this scenario

Doc Mike is the Shizzle

As an older lifter I’m curious if there are more findings regarding NSAID use actually being beneficial for hypertrophy. Last I heard there was speculation that it could bring greater systemic inflammation found in older people down to a more normal level snd therefore allow them to adapt to the stimulus caused by the actual training.

@DILFDylF

13 күн бұрын

If using NSAIDs allows hard training to happen, they're beneficial. The reduction in hypertrophy is likely not tremendous. Closer to 10% than 50%.

''Shock the Muscle''... true or false?

Dr Wolf is the following a reasonable conclusion from this discussion. Soreness is likely correlated with muscle growth but doesn't cause muscle growth.

In the case that performance is indicative how recovered a muscle is - if I go to the gym and notice that my first working set my performance has noticeably dropped from the last time, should I stop working out that muscle and swap it out for another muscle that workout?

Why sourness increases in 2nd or 3rd day if you don't exercise at all? But if you exercise after a day of rest it seems to get better sooner?

@akashafofo6939

13 күн бұрын

I want an answer on that. If I do not train after a soreness, the sore muscles get worse and last longer. On the other hand, if I train them even at the next next, the pain decreases until there is no more.

I see dr. Click, I mike

More drugs, more sleep, more food = more sore. Well, that's the opposite of what i thought, but it appears to be true.

I have a lot of trouble getting sore. My legs I can get sore to some degree, but my upper body just doesn't want to. If I deload for a week, sometimes I'll get sore on week 1 of my next meso (the lowest intensity week) but after that, nada. I take intramuscular test (as prescribed by my doc.. sorry I can't even get through that without laughing) but that's it aside from creatine. Shrug.

If I have no trouble steering or climbing in my truck after training, I under trained.

Soreness is a weird thing. I recently finished a 4 week meso where I did chest/delt/tri 2x per week. So I was doing minimum 6 sets of direct tris 2x per week. If I count in all chest and delt pressing as tri work then it came out to 95 sets over the 4 weeks. If I count only direct tri work it was 51 sets over the 4 weeks. Trust me, a lot of the sets were close to or at failure, especially the last 2 weeks. The result. My lying tri extensions stalled and finally regressed. IIRC my overhead rope tri ext also stalled. By flat bench stalled and/or regressed. Well Im 56 yrs old AND also cutting. My form is pretty strict and im a "beat the logbook" kind of guy. So it doesnt take a rocket scientist to say "hey dummy, its way too much volume AND intensity". And I agree. But the kicker???? I NEVER got sore triceps lol. Id get an ok pump...maybe some very mild tightness but nothing resembling soreness. Go figure

@tescoownbrandlit

14 күн бұрын

You were cutting. I wonder if your body didn't have enough energy to motivate you psychologically to push to the limit required to lift heavier and therefore incur soreness/rebuilding, because it doesn't have the energy to spend on it.

@JohnProph

14 күн бұрын

@@tescoownbrandlit I dont think thats it because I always push pretty close to failure especially after the first 2 weeks of a meso. I think its mainly because ive been lifting forever. Probably need to try to find some novel stimulus ive missed

@RCCurtright

14 күн бұрын

@@JohnProph I think the part about soreness being linked to the remodeling process is important here. You may have gotten a great stimulus that would be enough to make you sore IF you’d had enough nutrients to recover fully. But, if soreness is stimulus + recovery, and you are missing the recovery pieces, then you get no or less soreness.

I’m not getting some soreness I’m not expecting strength or muscle improvement

@kidbrown2010

14 күн бұрын

But you can do a bunch of junk training, never develop strength or muscle growth and still get sore. Due to things like machine hopping, excessive volume, poor sleep, etc. The mechanisms of soreness is completely independent, and that can present itself in some many more ways than mechanical tension. One of the bigger eye openers I had on soreness, besides having spun my wheels for 3 years, getting sored every session, yet putting minimal strength/size, is when I started stretching/rolling after leg training. With the *exact same* workout, I felt half as sore the next day. I understand how people get sore (I myself feel sore as shit right now) and mentally link the two, but once you take the entire context into account, I just can't see it as anything more than correlation.

@DrTopLiftDPT

11 күн бұрын

I just hit all time PRs this year natural 550, 370, 605 SBD at 36 yo. Im going to get sore every session.

team Dr. Milo

2:50 dr milo's rizz is unmatched

11:03 was an uppercut

nah not the synchronized shrug at 8:04

If I don’t feel sore I definitely feel like I failed my training session. For me the hardest muscle group for they is bicep. I will do my curls with a nice long stretch at the bottom of my reps and do them until my bi’s are screaming at me, then have a mild mild soreness the next day..

Doesn’t the repeated bout effect somewhat nullify this argument? When I train a muscle 2x per week it’s almost never sore, but if you train a muscle 1x a week it will get more sore more easily. If you took it a step further, and trained a muscle once every 2 weeks then it would get much more sore. It’s superfluous to increase volume/stimulus because you’re not sore.

@user-fn1cd6mo9z

14 күн бұрын

That's not the argument, though...he's saying a lack of soreness is an indicator that volume MAY be too low, not that lack of soreness indicates your volume IS too low.

@user-he4ef9br7z

14 күн бұрын

For some reason this never happened to me. If I train legs 1x a week I'll be sore, 2x I'll be bed ridden. Maybe this effect is just people adjusting as they get stronger.

@TypicallyUniqueOfficial

14 күн бұрын

@@user-he4ef9br7z when you first start a 2x a week program, you need to give it time. When I first ever did a 2x a week program it was Layne Norton’s PHAT. The first 3 weeks you will be sore multiple sessions. You’re not supposed to train to failure the first 3-4 week. After the 3rd week you can feel the difference. Personally I don’t get very sore except in my chest and hamstring mostly. On the rare occasion my back will get sore if I switch an exercise out then it goes back. My side delts NEVER get sore, even training them 16 sets a week to failure for every set and with all kinds of drop sets, and they’re easily my strongest bodypart.

Never realised how much dr mike blinks😂

Would be cool to see Mike on the podcast to discuss/debate some of this stuff with Greg too

Dude this shit was fuckin sick

Its like im in club im not even hearing whats being said

Almost comical Real simple If you hit any muscle group and it’s to uncomfortable to hit it again after 3-4 days max you did too much damage 3 days off is the sweet spot to get to for solid recovery and remodeling Of course that is if diet ,supplementation and sleep are on point As Lee Haney said Stimulate does not annihilate Been adhering to that for over 20 years for the most part minus some occasions where I train with someone and we brutalize tissues

Soreness is likely due to nerve damage, not muscle damage. So, not a good indicator for muscle growth or recovery.

So lately my "soreness " kicks in at night.. no matter the reps . It hurts so bad it keeps me up all night because needing to toss and turn.. is this even sorness ? Or joint damage lol I'm scared to push it now ..cause I need sleep !

@brian6speed

14 күн бұрын

that is more than just being sore. maybe something like siatica.

@PXO005

9 күн бұрын

Might be a delayed onset chronic muscular disease- better get it checked out

What happened to Greg and Eric?

💪💪💪

Get great pumps and good progress but very little soreness

Great content. Worst background audio possible.

No evidense for soreness and muscle growth, at any study

STOP WITH THE BACKGROUND MUSIC!!!

More smart guys talking!

background music was really annoyinh

Underdosing? Glad to know I need to be on gear

that was funny listening to these guys try to agree while disagreeing. I switch shit up when Im not getting a good pump and some soreness so I will grow. There is one of these 'perception' guys at my gym too. ha .

I see Milo AND Mike and I know I'm going to come out smarter 🫡

Dr Mike summed it up within the first 5 minutes. Its all waffle after that.

Brain no like pain, body grow muscle, no pain.

Dr. Mike is an aggressive blinker, maybe that is where his massive head muscles come from.

Mike looks annoyed at being critiqued by someone smaller than him

Very good vid. Why were you so uncomfortable ?

The interviewer looked like he was going to pass out 3 minutes into the 21 minute answer.

For the algorithm

Where I get sore on a consistent basis, I grow.

@dieandgoaway

13 күн бұрын

You are pretty small though

2 big brainers and didnt touch on the genetic aspect. People with a deficiency of the ACTN3 gene makes a person more prone to suffer from DOMS. The Myosin Light Chain Kinase (MLCK) gene may also play a part in muscle soreness. i know some people that never get sore no matter what they do, and some that are always sore. i get sore just looking at a weight

all these vids are long winded ways of saying yes and no at the same time to never be wrong in any specificity

Dr. M.I-6 Is not “just” a expert. He’s “the” expert ! Great Podcast. 🔥🔥🔥

I guess that Frieza on the right learnt a things or two from Goku. I better listen.

WHY DONT I FEEL SORE AND MY CHEST STRETCHED, IM DOING GOD JOB 😭

Soreness seems to be a product of recovery? Body is telling you to let those muscles cook

I train full bodies 4 ish days a week. Hardly get any soreness due to the split volume on each muscle. I’m a very advanced lifter and get good results from it. Works great when the lifting his quality and efficiency. Soreness doesn’t help. Just reduces efficiency

@jimmyrace1258

13 күн бұрын

Also not on gear. When I was years back I found pounding muscles into the ground creating soreness was more optimal

@adrians5875

13 күн бұрын

What's your 10 rep max on bench/ DB press?

@jimmyrace1258

13 күн бұрын

@@adrians5875 that’s random lol. 50kg dumbells and 115kg for bench

@jimmyrace1258

13 күн бұрын

@@adrians5875 I don’t ever go below 10 reps for anything. I don’t train for strength anymore

the fast-forwarding is off-putting.

i like when meat heads are nerds and talk about meat head things in nerdy ways.

like 5th i think?

@Jk-zv6tz

14 күн бұрын

Quite the achievement

@tastytucker981

14 күн бұрын

@@Jk-zv6tz Thanks! I worked really hard

So in 2024 we still don't know exactly what muscle soreness is🤔, but we should follow the science when it comes to training🙄

@slackerm1

14 күн бұрын

Underrated comment. Plus you have "this is my failure" dorks like Shoenfield out there, who's built like a bag of oatmeal running these "hypertrophy" studies......and you realize the science to lifting is way behind the curve, like it is on a lot of other things.

@greenwavefitness7545

13 күн бұрын

There's not even a standardized time protocol for measuring muscle growth. Good reason to believe that measuring a muscle 48 or 72 hours after novel high volume training, which is very typical, is measuring swelling and inflammation, not growth

I don't care, if I ain't sore I am depressed. I wanna know I tore some fibers up, and I want my body to make sure I know it.. thus give me the soreness. I really don't care about nuances of it.

Whoever placed the chairs in the room relative to the camera has revealed just how large Mike's nose really is.

Over 30,000 people have watched this video so far. Imagine the total amount of time wasted by all 30,000 trying to figure out what CWI and RT stands for at 21:11 simply to save the video editor 1.5 seconds of typing by using acronyms instead of words. I don’t want to slap the dicks out of anyone’s mouth, but the area under the curve of time wasted by viewers thinking about acronyms versus the typing time saved by the video editor is mind blowing. Great video otherwise. 😊

It’s amazing we’re calling this “science based”

@Garrettdx1988

14 күн бұрын

What would you call it?

@SamSimplyTrains

14 күн бұрын

@@Garrettdx1988 Narrative pushing, idek…

@chairmanlifts

14 күн бұрын

@@SamSimplyTrains exercise science will aways be a softer science than something like organic chemistry. i see mike and milo use an appropriate level of intellectual humility to make educated nuanced guesses and don’t know what else i should expect to see

@SamSimplyTrains

14 күн бұрын

@@chairmanlifts check out Chris Beardsley, very educated and respected in this field.

@SamSimplyTrains

10 күн бұрын

@@chairmanlifts we don’t need guesses, we know.

To Mike's anecdote about the guy he knows that was getting more sore with less sets and consistent training. It sounds like that guy is having an adaptation where his body is getting more and more upset and giving more pain signals to tell him to basically NOT remodel his tissues.

Very interesting how a phd scientist specializes in training tactics and although natural has a very lackluster physique and actual solid tissue development

@chairmanlifts

14 күн бұрын

he’s like 6ft4

@BBBerti

13 күн бұрын

You're insane if you think his physique is bad. He has a few unfortunate insertions and maybe not the best genetics for his muscle bellies, in addition to being very tall, but he looks pretty developed. His clothing choices don't help

@modemarcoj8026

13 күн бұрын

@@BBBerti I did not say it was bad Lack luster means not very impressive considering his supposed prowess with masterful training tactics and ( scientific training protocols) he is still very young also and yes he is tall however if his methods are so groundbreaking I would imagine he would be far more developed none the less Don’t get your panties in a bunch I do not have a PhD but would run circles around him in a gym setting

@chairmanlifts

13 күн бұрын

@@modemarcoj8026 you need to contextualize how every single phd says that very generic training + time + genetics will get you very far and that they are debating 5-10% nuances

first .

@strongerbyscience

14 күн бұрын

We in here -Milo

Ahhh yes Dr. M(K)ike

@jurv7626

13 күн бұрын

Oy vey😂

9:54 lol sorry what? Begginers cant tell the difference between their muscle and thier joints? Yeah i know when i lock out my knees and put a heavy object on top of them to push my knees back even further, thats definitely my calf and quad muscles giving me all that pain in my knees. Im sorry but that was probably the dumbest thing Mike has ever said.

Soreness does not = muscle growth, muscle damage does not = muscle growth. Effective reps near failure do. We have a very good grasp on fatigue literature however the hypertrophy community has not seem to come across it yet.

@ekroizm

14 күн бұрын

Yeah effective reps are kinda bs if you consider power lifting

@SamSimplyTrains

14 күн бұрын

@@ekroizm How so? They’re definitely still applicable, they just don’t get close enough to failure AND they generally work with compounds that are too diverse in terms of muscles worked so it’s unclear which one is receiving stimulus.

@taylorhillard4868

14 күн бұрын

Yeah but effective reps near failure=soreness.....so....

@SamSimplyTrains

14 күн бұрын

@@taylorhillard4868 not at all…

@taylorhillard4868

14 күн бұрын

@@SamSimplyTrains they do for me. In fact I can control how long I'll be sore by nothing else other than proximity to failure. If I don't want to be sore I stay 5+ reps from failure. If I do that I can do an infinite number of sets and never be sore. 4 reps from failure is 1 day sore, 3 is 2, 2 is 3-4, 1 is 4-5, and failure is 5+. Proximity to failure is inextricably linked with soreness and to what degree it manifests.

This host is so boring and needs to lighten up

Long length partials are trash

Mike getting passed around to all the channels more than an of girl

Yes: soreness = muscle growth. If you're not sore, your rest periods between sets are too long. Shorten your rest periods, get sore, and recover with good nutrition and sleep. When you're no longer sore from that workout, increase the amount of work. This is Best Practices I figured out in the 5th grade, and it will always be true no matter what pseudo-intellectuals tell you this week or next.

@Chriscrusty

14 күн бұрын

that's just obviously not true

@SamSimplyTrains

14 күн бұрын

I think the fact that you discovered this in the fifth grade is a pretty clear indicator that it’s a bad idea.

@nancyj795

14 күн бұрын

@@SamSimplyTrains It's a pretty clear indicator that I have a higher IQ than you, and I'm more physiologically intuitive. But, to be fair, I cannot speak for anyone who is a juicehead.

@dontreadmyname4396

14 күн бұрын

rest periods?

@user-fn1cd6mo9z

14 күн бұрын

@@Chriscrusty Nah, soreness is obviously a great proxy for tracking recovery, which is what the guy is saying.