I did like the grandma's message of "you can go back if you need to, it's okay." Instead of continuing to thrust the hero into the conflict for the greater good.

@k1j1j1j

2 жыл бұрын

@@AnHeC well let's see how _you_ act in that situation 🤓

@AnHeC

2 жыл бұрын

@@k1j1j1j It doesn't work in the context of the movie. It's not earned. It doesn't make any sense. It's all the pretense with nothing to back it up.

@maenad1231

2 жыл бұрын

@@AnHeC Do you remember when Grandma says “okay” and Moana responds with “you’re not gonna try to stop me?” or something to that effect? Because of behavior like that I didn’t even think Grandma meant it when she said “you can go back”. She’s psychologically far more mature than Moana _(obviously)_ so by not saying what saying what she actually wants she causes Moana to consider the ramifications if she doesn’t do the right thing. Disney definitely could of screwed up and actually had did intend for Grandma to mean what she said but I just never figured she meant it

@Poopmannn

Жыл бұрын

Yes I watched Lindsay Ellis’ video too :)

I think you undersold the grandma scene btw, Moana's mistake was overconfidence. She was too cocky when she thought she could outwit Te Fiti, she had been defining herself as a hero by the same standards as Maui and in doing so forgot the reason that she needed Maui and the reason the ocean chose her in the first place. Moana's ultimate strength is her kindness, that is why the grandma scene is important, she learns that she is not a hero because she is brave or reckless but because she has a "pure heart" (a potentially problematic concept, but its evidenced by her kindness to animals and her care for Maui and her family). Her grandma truly represents that kindness and the concept of following her heart. Really the visit from the grandma foreshadows the true qualities Moana must possess to heal Te Fiti. Not to be all SJW here but, I think since the hero's journey is almost always applied to male characters, it's masculine qualities that are needed to complete the journey. Moana's overconfidence and attempt to hold herself up to those masculine ideals of heroism is her downfall, the jump into the pit highlights just how reckless she is being. She goes through the film believing that she is immune to defeat because she is stronger, or smarter or braver than everything else. That quality is traditionally hailed as male heroes (see literally any Harrison Ford character). But I think in embracing more feminine associated qualities like kindness, empathy, and grace, we see that there are many different forms of heroism. I agree that some scenes don't entirely work, for instance,, the use of the ocean as the ultimate ex Machina was lazy at best, but I think some of these "mistakes" are merely the execution of concepts we aren't used to seeing. The hero's journey seems off because we aren't correctly identifying what is making Moana a hero.

@Spamhard

6 жыл бұрын

Very well said!

@blakeftpful

6 жыл бұрын

omg thank u for this.. i didn't like this video at all and i couldn't figure out why. you explained it all perfectly. Hopefully the poster of the video will read this and consider. thank u

@chrisfarmer6893

6 жыл бұрын

Interesting response, but I would say that Moana's character flaws were not well defined. The movie doesn't really treat her reckless behavior as a problem that she needs to overcome - after all, she has almost nothing but positive results until the last 10 minutes of the movie. Her initial failure to sail past the reef has almost no impact on her character and doesn't really change anything. Otherwise she just has win after win. The confrontation with the Kakamora, and the realm of monsters, both show the outcome of her risk taking to be total success with no negative consequences. We don't see that she needs to learn something, because her overconfidence worked perfectly to solve her problems for the majority of the movie. I did like the message that Moana finally triumphs by using kindness and understanding to help Te Ka, but up until that point there was really no emphasis on empathy as either a strength or defect of Moana's character. That moment could have been so powerful but there just wasn't any build up to it. Before the final confrontation I did not see Moana struggle at all with whether kindness or violence are a better way to solve problems. There is some focus on family and tradition which I also liked, but unfortunately did not add to her final struggle - Grandma Tala's death was old age and not related to the main conflict as Mufasa's death was in the Lion King. So her appearance does not have the same resonance and I agree with Big Joel on this point. Also, Maui's flaw is clearly arrogance and vanity, and having two main characters with almost the same traits is a mistake IMO. Arrogance is a classic tragic flaw of male heroes, but I would really like to see more feminine qualities in a hero. In fact I think the main problem is that the movie just pastes a female character into the male hero's journey without examining the implications. How could this change make the hero's journey more interesting? What lessons could we learn about different ways to be a hero? I would love to find out!!

@aaronyandell2929

6 жыл бұрын

Elizabeth Okley I stopped seeing stories by the hero's journey standard a long time ago. The protagonist or any other character doesn't have to be a hero. He or she is meant to serve the plot and, by extension, the theme. So, insisting that the character is a hero doesn't make any sense, unless heroism is related to the theme. Why was Han Solo cocky, rash and crude? Not because he is a hero. Because he has a rougish personality, playing by his own rules. This may have been portrayed to lead to heroism, but really, that's just how Han Solo is. Why is Indiana Jones adventerous? Because he is passionate about finding and preserving relics of history. Does that inherently make him a hero? Rick Deckard has an epiphany about the nature of humanity and learns to respect replicants, but does that really make him a hero? He spent most of his time hunting replicants down. Richard Kimble made descicions on the fly, not because he was a hero, but because he was on the run from law enforcement who thought he killed his wife. Kimble's goal was to clear his name, not to save the people, stop an evil or to produce prosperity. Moana could be considered a hero because she saved her people and thier former way of life. However, she did so to find or prove her place in the world. At least Simba's motivation came from recognizing his (apparent) responsibility to Pride Rock and the error in living like a Big Lebowski, but that only came by the form of animal magnetism and do-me eyes. All stories serve to present certain characters as heroes to espouse thier respective themes, but that doesn't necessarily make them heroes.

@Indiegirled

6 жыл бұрын

I mean I feel you're really just critiquing the whole theoretical concept of The Hero's Journey here, which is what the video directly relates to, my point was simply that since this video essay comments on whether Moana works as The Hero's Journey, they should have considered a wider scope of heroism than simply "Does she become more courageous?" . But I agree that trying to fit any film into the narrow framework of The Hero's journey is reductive, my Harrison Ford comment was merely to illustrate a particular form of masculine heroism that we are most familiar with when discussing something as broad as what it means to be a hero. Yet to a certain extent Moana is about heroism, rather than inverting the tropes of a Disney princess i feel that Moana works more to invert the concept of a hero at all and I feel to strip Moana of any reference to heroism is to, once more, ignore a large part of the film's wider meaning. (also btw Moana, like Coco, holds an ultimately collectivist philosophy which may also make it harder to relate to in terms of Moana's goals. Moana's motivation is not simply to find herself but to reconnect her people to their past and help heal the collective trauma which is restricting them to the island, I mean they package this idea pretty nicely for you with the opening song and the final scenes as well as the scene where Moana finds out about her peoples past. I think the least valid argument is that Moana has no motivation when it's pretty clear throughout)

here is something I read on internet about Moana's scene with her dead grand mother. I don't know who wrote it but here it goes. "I need to talk about this scene because it's so different from the typical way pep talks go. Moana has just suffered a tremendous defeat and been abandoned by Maui, her demi-god ally. She's understandably upset - the heart of Te-Fitihas to be restored or decay will consume her island. And yet she's just one teenage girl on a damaged canoe - how is she supposed to face down Te Ka, actual vengeful Lava monster? Her grandmother's spirit doesn't come in with a magical fix, insists her doubts are baseless and/or bluster that she should just get on with the impossible. She comforts her andtells her it was too big a task to expect of her (all true!) and then tells her it's okay to give up, that she will be there with unconditional support to help her go home, no guilt or shame. THIS. NEVER. HAPPENS. IN. STORIES. And it should. "Encouragement" is so often a lot like bullying in narratives, even towards characters that are children. "I know you have it in you [even though you were just soundly beaten!] Now get back out there (Even though you're miserable!) Instead, Gramma waits until Moana herself realizes that she's not ready to give up, through self reflection. She wasn't there to insist that Moana 'Suck it up!' but simply to "remind [her] that come what may, [she] Knows the way". That is awesome!"

@kiyana8928

5 жыл бұрын

Preach!

@soupzie

3 жыл бұрын

I remember this too! I believe it's from a lindsay ellis video from a few years ago!

@lenlenlen6152

3 жыл бұрын

@@soupzie yeah it's from her pocahontas vid I think

@therealsokratis

3 жыл бұрын

this scene falls in line with the "Meeting of the Goddess" section of the Campbellian Heroic Cycle. Moana fulfills the heroic cycle very well as a character and a story.

@AnHeC

2 жыл бұрын

This was not earned and dint make sense in the context. It was the movie makers trying to make cool and subversive things happen without earning them or them making sense. Nice idea. But execution was garbage.

I think you might be guilty of missing the forest for the trees, I don't see Moana's mistake when confronted with Te Ka as a miscalculation was inconsequential to the overall narrative. For me, I thought Moana's choices throughout the entire movie was building up to that moment. You mention how Moana jumps into Lalotai even though she could have easily been a suicide mission, but that moment proves a crucial flaw to her character.. which is that she's reckless. And even though her reckless choice worked out for her in that scenario, it lead to her downfall when they first faced Te Ka and to be abandoned by Maui. You also say that Moana being choosen tells use nothing about her character but from what I recall she was chosen because of kindness she was shown at the beginning of the film. Moana may have not been a perfect film but I do think it deserves a little more credit.

@fennelcomeaux9663

2 жыл бұрын

I think you've added a lot to this discussion, but I also think the movie could've shown her recklessness more clearly if that's what it was going for.

@AnHeC

2 жыл бұрын

Nope. I think that he precisely saw it for what is there. And I 100 percent agree.

@G-Rockman

Жыл бұрын

I think that's probably what they were going for. The trouble if that's the case is that "too reckless" is sort of like the movie character flaw equivalent of "too committed to the job" during an interview. Considering her recklessness is entirely what's driven the plot up to this point and worked out in her and everyone's favour 100% up to that point, to suddenly turn around and say it's her vital flaw? I wouldn't say it's unrealistic or that it's impossible to tackle that idea well, but it's just been done so many times and is about equivalent to "clumsy" in terms of being an actual character flaw that is meant to be essential to who they have been up to that point.

Imo, Moana is never about Moana the individual. The entire movie is about Moana and her island she is supposed to lead. From the very beginning the movie makes clear Moana is pretty much sure of who she is. The movie is about finding herself in the context of her community. That is why the ocean takes her everywhere, that's why she needs the help of Maui, why she needs that push from the spirit of her grandmother. Those all are part of her cultural inheritance. The community is facing problems (encroaching modernity/environmental issues) and Moana is their chosen individual to fix them. The Lion King was all about Simba finding himself. Moana is about reconciling cultural and communal responsibilities with your individual character and using them as a source of strength. The music is also very indicative of this message some of the songs speak to the importance of your ancestry in shaping who you are.

@robertdullnig3625

5 жыл бұрын

This is a very good point, and I think it also touches on how successful the movie is in bringing in non-Western narrative and attitudes to inform it's content.

As a Polynesian, I've always felt the pressure to like Moana, but like all of the reasons in this analysis, I don't. I don't know- I don't hate it, but it was a lot of hit and miss for me. Taika Waititi (the guy who directed Thor Ragnarok) wrote the first story of Moana which was pitched to Disney, but Disney changed it and ended up with this: an empty story with my culture as a background (meh, it could've been worse). Knowing how awesome 'Boy' or 'Hunt for the Wilderpeople' was, I don't think its Taika's fault. I really wished they stuck to his original script instead of changing it and watering the themes down. Anyways....

@BigJoel

6 жыл бұрын

Is there a lot of like huge hype about Moana in Polynesia? Out of curiosity, do people there seem to like it?

@annieev171

6 жыл бұрын

We are very honored to be represented on the big screen, so there is an unspoken pressure to like it because we should be 'thankful' that we've been 'chosen' by a mega-powerhouse like Disney lol. There is a hype, but it's more like- 'oh! did you see that Moana movie? It's awesome!' and then back to our daily lives haha. Moana is not really a relatable character (as you mentioned in this video) so the only connection we feel like we have to her is that she's brown and comes from an island. As a Polynesian, the only thing I am proud of is the music from this movie. Oh man, Lin-Manuel REALLY got the essence of our FUNDAMENTAL values and put it into the song lyrics. The guys a genius! Thanks for this honest analysis. Critiquing a movie with a cultural connection is very tricky (especially in this sensitive world) but doing so helps inform others like me that I shouldn't settle for low standards of storytelling just because I should be thankful that I finally get some representation in Disney :) It's all good though, only gets better from here I guess!

@vilwarin5635

6 жыл бұрын

Do you know more about the original script?

@kiksmello3878

5 жыл бұрын

I think this is similar to how some Black people felt about Black Panther and shows why more films about POC are needed.

@JV-ub7ev

5 жыл бұрын

Same. I'm micronesian (Chamorro, Guam) and I was so excited for this movie, but I found it really low impact and didn't like Moana as a character. It felt so passive, and the music wasn't what I was hoping for. Honestly, for me Lilo and Stitch is much more emotional, even if it's more modern day American-island theme.

actually making one mistake and then thinking you should quit is super relatable

When Maui acknowledged Moana it was the nicest thing he ever said to her though. He was saying that he believed in her. Something that her own father didn't do.

On your first point; Moana continously repeats the phrase "I am Moana of Montunui. You [Maui] will board my boat, sail across the sea, and restore the heart of Te Fiti." She says this multiple times throughout the movie, a mantra to help her remember why she's doing this in the first place. The reason why she jumps in after him is because she is to take Maui to return the heart -- he is a vital piece to her quest. Why on earth would she just... let him go? It's part of her job description to make sure he gets to their destination safely. I thought I should bring this up as I was really suprised you chose this as one of your points, as her actions really were explained. Moana wants to follow her quest, showing she's too stubborn to let Maui do it on his own, which is very in line with her character. I just thought I'd bring it up. Keep up the good work.

@helentaylor2066

6 жыл бұрын

ALSO! Just to jump off of this for a quick second about the last point; the reason why she suddenly doubts herself is not just because she makes a mistake. Again, she was too stubborn to take Maui's advice, causing catastrophe. Throughout the movie it both praises and criticises the trait of stubbornness -- sometimes it's good, sometimes it lands you in hot water. Moana doubts herself because this trait that has given her success thus far has suddenly blown up in her face -- and as we know up to this point she's been quite sheltered, so this is probably the first time she's messed up to this scale. It's knocked her down a bit, which is understandable given all we've seen so far. On another level, the scene with the grandma indicates how in all honesty Moana never really chose this mission. She was basically handed it by her grandmother (also she's the first to say the mantra to Moana). This scene is finally allowing Moana to properly accept this mission, and on her terms, hence why the next time she repeats the mantra she says that SHE will deliver the heart of Tafiti. But! I suppose this is all just my opinion. And I respect your opinion -- sometimes you read things differently, and it's good to get differing opinions. I did really agree on the plot getting in the way of Moana's and Maui's bonding -- you made me realise how awkward it felt. Anyway thanks for the video!

@airhornsound

5 жыл бұрын

YES. Until that grandma scene, Maui was a non-negotiable part of the plan. She couldn't risk losing track of him. I appreciate different perspectives too, but I'm surprised that wasn't more obvious in this video.

I think maybe that bit of Moana where she makes a mistake, is abandoned by Maui is addressed the way it is for a distinct reason. Psychological studies of gender specific learning styles have revealed that girls tend to deal with failures and mistakes poorly. If it isn't "perfect" they are likely to scrap it and restart from scratch instead of going back and reworking and playing with it. They also won't hazard answers to questions unless they are confident in their answer. This scene may have been an attempt levied at young girls to convey that they can pick themselves up after failure. I don't think the scene was very well executed but it may have been trying something we don't normally see. Not a character who has been tricked (like Simba) or made a mistake due to an inherent heroic flaw, she just a miscalculation during execution. When she faces the problem again the plan remains the same, there wasn't anything wrong with it, she just learned from the first go round and makes it through the second time.

@BigJoel

6 жыл бұрын

Hmm I'm not totally sold on the idea that not trying the same thing twice in movies is a gender thing. After all, Wile E. Coyote never does the same plan twice in a row. I do like the idea that Moana is playing with that, to some extent.

@BigJoel

6 жыл бұрын

That said, I would love to see that study. It seems interesting.

@reelheck

6 жыл бұрын

I somewhat understand where this is coming from, as even the knowledge of a stereotype can affect how a person views themselves. So yes, the idea that a girl will not be able to do something correctly can affect that girl's confidence and drive them to a perfectionist mental state BUT the movie doesn't make it seem like she cares all that much up until that point. So yes and no? Good point though :)

@rosemali3022

6 жыл бұрын

I came here to mention this, but you did it so much more eloquently than I would have. Thank you.

@Spamhard

6 жыл бұрын

I was thinking the exact same thing at this criticism. As a younger girl/teen (and even now, honestly) I'd find even the smallest failure made me feel like I wasn't capable or up to the task, and that scene in Moana was very relatable because of it. It definitely isn't as well implemented or explained as it could have been, but I really love that scene not only for Moana's doubt, but also because of her Grandmother basically saying "it's okay to fuck up, we won't think any less of you if you want to stop, it's your decision". I think it's a pretty powerful message to young girls, and a fine way to make them feel supported. Oh and +Big Joel one such article can be found here: time.com/4008357/girls-failure-practice/ It covers societal pressures on young girls and some stereotyping of genders.

Stage 1: no, don't hate Moana Stage 2: huh, He has a point Stage 3: (notes taking) Stage 4: okay, I learned something and it doesn't mean I have to hate the movie for its flaws.

So, in regards to the scene where Maui and Moana jump into the realm of monsters, I wonder if it fell flat because they didn't keep the original scene, which included a big musical number between Maui and Moana. I think it would have developed their relationship a lot better if they had kept it and it involved Maui teaching Moana how to be brave. It was called Warrior Face, if anyone is curious, and there's an official animatic version somewhere on the interwebs.

@kiyana8928

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I agree I wish they had kept that scene/song

So my two year old watched this every day for about two months, and other than the music, I couldn’t quite go all in. The reason, I think, is that it doesn’t ever hesitate. If Moana really struggled with entering the underworld, or challenged Maui for causing centuries of isolation and pain for humanity, there’d be more weight. If she wondered, sincerely whether she had drowned or whether the ocean made her a sacrifice who couldn’t go home, it would have weight. Hell, if it turned out that she couldn’t go home but had to become Te Fiti, I’d love the movie. But there’s no sacrifice ever. The only person who arguably sacrifices an immortality granting artifact for the salvation of her people is the grandmother, and that’s played down. BUT, my child can watch this film every day, and maybe that’s why they did it-

@carpeicthus

5 жыл бұрын

I think you can't really get Moana unless you have a two-year-old, and realize what a saving grace Lin is for creating music much less grating than, say, Frozen on the 500th listen.

@lampad4549

5 жыл бұрын

Why does she have to sacrifice, the movie was about finding herself and becoming the person she desires to become

@lotsofuwuenergy3983

3 жыл бұрын

I think a focus on sacrifice would've taken away from Moana's arc because she doesn't... need to sacrifice. That's not really what her internal struggle is; it's having to balance her desires with her duties. Imo too many movies throw away one or the other and rarely show that you can have a balance.

@hunterthompson5680

2 жыл бұрын

@Mel On Because unless storytelling is to be an entirely abstract exercise utterly divorced from reality as experienced by humans, everything is a trade-off. You can't have everything and there's no such thing as a free lunch. Because life is complicated, people often have trouble making decisions in real life precisely because dealing with the trade-offs of different potential choices, especially when the stakes are high, or when perhaps even the goal itself may be unclear, and we must take as a given our own ignorance and limited perception and understanding, make the task seemingly impossible, we benefit by considering archetypal examples of characters who successfully navigate such situations. Every emotional pay-off in narrative exists because of sacrifice. The better the qualiyy of the emotional pay-off, the better remembered a story is by a people. Think about it.

There are two themes present in Moana: 1) Standard, "Somewhere out there", "Poor Provincial Town" Disney Princess theme of transition/growth/yearning against a loved authority figure that has preached care and safety for her whole life. 2) Rebirth/Renewal and the healing of old wounds. It is important to note that the story of Moana is as much the story of Maui. Both go through aspects of the hero's journey in the movie. They both refuse the call, both meet with the goddess, both have a test of faith, etc. Moana's story, for all of her bad-assery, is the nurturer and the one who brings rebirth back to both Maui and Te Fiti, and, by extension, to her people. This is not necessarily to refute your points, but to put them in context. I think there's more to say on this point, but I don't have the time right now to say it.

I don’t necesarily agree with large chunks of this video and I feel as though you kind of missed some things. Since you’re using Star Wars as a comparison I’m going to run with that, Luke Skywalker is a very proactive character in that film he never has any second thoughts whenever some major thing happens. Why is Luke proactive? He’s been on a backwater planet for years and just wants go out in the world and look for adventure and when he finally gets the chance and when he has no other options when the Empire kills his family he takes it. Moana is the same situation, Moana wants to go out into the world for adventure but her overbearing father won’t let her or anyone go anywhere beyond the reef not to mention that she actually starts wanting to do something when it’s revealed that there’s a ticking time bomb at play as the darkness from Te ka consumes her Island day by day. It’s really silly that you criticize Moana not having second thoughts about jumping into the realm of monsters AFTER she has a nightmare of what happens to her family and island if she fails or doesn’t do anything. No real danger? There’s literally two instances where she’s about to get eaten and one of them is just pure luck without Maui's interference. The reason why the ocean brought Moana to Maui itself is solely because Moana can’t sail or at least is terrible at it and she needs Maui’s help in teaching her how to sail. Heck, the ocean doesn’t even intervene in helping Moana until her entire boat is flipped over. About the Kaka Moora action scene, that was actually going to be a bit of a pay off of a deleted scene before where Moana was venting out her anger against her father by playing baseball with coconuts with her paddle but they changed it due to creative differences with the Hawaiian locals that consulted this story. Even then, the Kaka Moora are these little pathetic pirates that practically with a big sweeping stick could know around pretty easily. It’s also kind her fault that this action scene is happening because she practically shouts that she has the macgiffin so it’s reslky her mess to clean up. About the relationship between Moana and Maui, I’m not real sure if the intimate conversation Moana has with Maui about his past meant anything to you. Moana’s sentiment is the closest thing to down to earth advice Maui has had since he probably never took the time to have a real sit down with someone about his past for many years. Maybe this is down to interpretation but Maui giving that compliment to Moana right before they get to Te Fiti IS the nicest thing he’s ever said to Moana because he actually means it unlike his “compliments” before where Maui is acting like he’s really embarrassed to admit that Moana is alright even then she’s too distracted by his mutated shark head to notice. Character development in Disney films is down to personal preference and of course some things can be further fleshed out but this has always been the case with Disney. I know some people will argue to the death that Lion King doesn’t work on a character level. While the Lion King and Moana pep talk scenes both share a similar theme of finding out who you are and getting over your insecurities. The Lion King is moreso about Simba remembering who he is and what he’s a part of rather than figuring out who he is. Moana is always wrestling with the question “Why did the ocean choose me?” Moana doesn’t know her role in the world, she’s just a kid and not a warrior and she just started learning how to sail the ocean. Is she the hero? Is she just an accomplice for Maui? Is she just a bystander for Maui? How far will she go? By the end of that number, Moana comes to a realization that she’s not a perfect hero who’s going to save the day she’s just Moana and she’s going to do her best to help the people she cares about no matter the cost. This leads to the final point of how you say “nothing feels earned.” Well, by the end it’s revealed that the reason why Moana is chosen is because of her kindness and down to earth qualities. The scene with baby Moana helping a baby sea turtle get to its family is not just there for cutesy antics, it’s there to emphasize that Moana is kind hearted enough to help in which way she can from her inception. Her down to earth kindness is what gets Maui out of his insecure funk of not being able to control his powers which motivates him to further teach Moana how to sail as well as being a team player in the final fight against Te Ka. I get that everyone is going to have somewhat of a different take but those are really just two cents from a guy who grew up really appreciate this film the more I watched it. .

@fenixmagicjd

6 жыл бұрын

I really think your comment is excellent analysis. This is the first video I've watched where I feel like the author didn't really get what the movie was going for, and you sum it up nicely.

@inbuttsmeeting

6 жыл бұрын

I TOTALLY agree with this, and I also feel that the pep talk scene is important in that it's one of if not the only disney movie that tells the protaganist - you don't have to do this, I put too much on your shoulders. I think that's extremely significant especially because when moana then decides to go back to te fiti, it's on her own terms instead of the ocean's or her grandmother's. I feel that this review makes no effort to understand who the movie is for and why it is important.

@AnnekeOosterink

6 жыл бұрын

+allisaurus that was one thing that really stood out to me, Moana is allowed to go back if she really wants to. Mufasa all but forces Simba to do what he needs to do. Moana can stop this whole thing and let the ocean find someone else. She decides to do it anyway.

@sonicsnake44

6 жыл бұрын

Great analysis I was watching the video thinking the same thing. Theirs so much stuff the reviewer is missing to try and make his arguments work.

@wrathisme4693

6 жыл бұрын

Hard agree. Feels like he wanted to fit the round peg of this story into a square hole to fit a narrative

I also like Moana but this helped me understand why I also thought it was empty and forgettable. I find the same thing with Tangled. I liked it, maybe more than Moana, but I find people forget about it and I find myself not wanting to repeat watch it. Make a video on Tangled?

@BigJoel

7 жыл бұрын

I think that Tangled falls under a weird category of movies that are both generic and lovable. Like, I really like it and I think it works well, but there's so little going on in it. Maybe it would make a good topic for a video because of that. Anyway, thanks for your suggestion and thanks for watching.

@BigBossMan538

6 жыл бұрын

Honestly, I love Tangled. It's my favorite Princess film. And you perfectly described my feelings on Moana. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but you described my feelings to a t.

@totesme14

6 жыл бұрын

BigBossMan538 I’m on the same page with you there. Tangled is a personal favorite, but as far as Moana is concerned, it just feels lackluster. And honestly it irked me for a while because I couldn’t figure out why I didn’t connect with it.

@samwallaceart288

6 жыл бұрын

Tangled is pretty much the only modern Disney CG movie I find worth rewatching. Frozen had some good ideas but wasn't well written, Big Hero 6 had no reason to exist, Zootopia was well written but had a broken metaphor, and Moana was charming and unoffensive. Maybe it's just me but Tangled is still the only one I actually like; there's a degree of emotional honesty to it that's actually backed up by a properly rounded-out plot and well-written characters. My second favorite of the new Disney movies is Bolt for the same reasons except the characters are more annoying and the story doesn't have enough stakes, but still better than Frozen.

@bluebunny9

6 жыл бұрын

I tried watching so many reviews of Moana after I first watched it to try to figure out why I felt no emotional connection to it, but to no avail. This finally answers my question. Tangled though I found to have to best storytelling of the newest three princess movies. I watched it on repeat for months after I got it, and I never got tired of it. To me it was like eating a bag of chips. Not really any great nutritional value, but you can eat the whole bag no problem and it tastes great.

Ultimately, Moana is a story about healing from past wounds and accepting the mistakes involved with them- be it physical wounds, emotional wounds, or cultural wounds. It's a repeated theme in the story, and I don't really feel that you got that from your viewing of the movie. Once again, Moana is nowhere near a perfect movie but I think it deserves more credit than you're taking away from it with this analysis.

@sloaneglover1026

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you! I found Moana extraordinarily affective (ie: I leaked a lot!), especially for a Disney movie. There is so much subtext on the topic of trauma and healing. It's okay if that doesn't LAND for Joel (or whoever) but it for sure WORKS.

@wilyoldserpent

4 жыл бұрын

I think I get where he's coming from. Moana is a movie you learn to love because it really isn't the typical Disney movie nor the typical hero's journey, that's why it feels weird. You don't instantly relate to Moana or Maui because they're not characters you're used to see. We're not used to see our own flaws in fictional characters

@AnHeC

2 жыл бұрын

Nope. Moana deserves way less credit then people give it. The idea is only as good as its execution.

@RochaFelipeR

2 жыл бұрын

The problem whit the analisis is the fact that Moana isn't an archetypical masculine journey: The Hero Journey, but in fact an feminine archetypical journey: The Virgin's Promisse. The Virgin's Promise is the journey to recoincile the two forces betwen which the Virgin (girls in society) is split, the first being the community assumption that the Virgin has agreed to live up to their expectations. That she has to fulfill a promise that she has made to them (regardles of her own desires). The second speaks to the Virgin's unproven potential that lies dormant within her, longing to come to life. The Virgin begins by conforming to the wishes of others and eventually learns to hear her inner voice and bring it to life, learning that to best contribute to the society she must first acknowledge hersel. There is any problem with the hero journey, the problem is to say that an archetypal feminine journey has failed because it doesn't fulfill a masculine archetypal journey.

WOAH did anyone else notice that in the Lion King clip at 9:25, for a frame, Simba's eye is white like they missed coloring it yellow for one image

@Tj_Druid

6 жыл бұрын

holy shit, you're right! ('•♢•)

I think you missed the point of the compliment. The first one was a generic admiration of her toughness and bravery. These were never anything she had doubts about. The second was resolving the issue that she was concerned about personally "why did the ocean choose me?" and she got the answer from a demigod in a position to know. Only he could do that for her and only by understanding her and what she cares about. That's why it shows their relationship developing.

I find Maui's arc much more interesting. I saw the whole thing of a male becoming aware of the violence he's inflicted and trying to make amends.

@TiffanyNg100

3 жыл бұрын

Lol, I was wonder who is the main character in this movie?! I pretty much thinking it Maui

@TahtahmesDiary

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed, he recognizes the violation for what it was.

I viewed the story more as a depiction of experience and discovery. Moana wasn’t heroic, she was adventurous and basking in her quest. She was using the mission as an excuse to take the trip she had always wanted and when her confidence is shaken she is reminded of the spirit of her quest rather than the overwhelming standards she has to meet. This reaffirms her resolve and she uses what she learned to save the day. The message that your mistakes don’t define you and I thought it was beautifully portrayed. She doesn’t fit most of the things you stated they failed at because she has a very distinct personality defined by reckless adventuring and not the cookie cutter hero. I really liked this video, though. I disagreed but it was well made and well argued. Keep up the good work!

I feel like Moana and The Princess and the Frog have the same problem where they feel like they're just hurrying between set pieces and songs without any real plot cohesion.

"Why does she jump in? What gives her the impression that this fall won't kill her?" The splash. A second after Maui calls up "I am still fallliiiiing" @3:02, you hear the sound of a splash. Maui's shout not only humorously emphasizes how far he has fallen, it cues the audience into, like Moana, paying attention to the sound of his fall in time to hear his splash. When she hears the splash, we see the relief on Moana's face and her releasing her held breath. Moana takes the leap, therefore, because that splash convinced her that Maui knew the fall was safe and that she'd be jumping into deep water. So contrary to your analysis, she refrains from jumping until she has reason to believe the fall won't kill her.

@wlovesourtea3464

3 жыл бұрын

water can very easily kill you from that height. unless you hit it in a specific way, like kinda pencil shaped, it's basically akin to hitting concrete because the fluid doesn't displace fast enough to break your fall.

To be fair, Star Wars doesn't emotionally connect with me either; it could be because I'm younger and have seen it since birth so I'm over-exposed or something, but I suspect there is something missing in Star Wars' stories as well. The closest any Star Wars movie gets to being emotional for me are the training scenes in Empire Strikes Back and the final duel in Revenge of the Sith; ANH does absolutely nothing for me though.

@electricguanaco8270

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah. Wow. I completely agree. I feel a big reason I like star wars is because everyone else likes it so much. They are good movies, but I do think the biggest emotional connection people have with it is nostalgia.

@lotsofuwuenergy3983

3 жыл бұрын

Clone Wars has been what I watched first. After the long emotional journey of that, holy shit the movies were a huge disappointment for me. I didn't watch them until after I finished CW, but I heard all the pop culture references and hoopla. I was ready to finally see the cultural phenomenon but it was really... _dry_ for me. I respect it, but I'll probably not ever rewatch the movies.

Moana has the same problems a lot of girls have: they work hard and get results because they work hard and they're capable. But you know what happens to people who work hard, and work hard, and work hard, and they're usually successful? They're not used to failure. And so when they fail, their foundations collapse. She feels bad for Maui. She feels bad for being overconfident. She feels bad for failing her dying island too. So it makes sense.

Honestly, I had very different emotional reactions than you were mentioning, but you didn't really lose me until "there's no real reason she should doubt the ocean's choice like she does." She started with one stated goal, and 2 unstated ones: Deliver Maui and the heart to Tefiti, save her island, and learn to sail. This is a moment where Maui (who, in my opinion, had at this point a pretty heartwarming friendship with her) is gone and well out of her reach, because of a disaster that's the result of her overestimating her ability to sail, and as a result of that she has no idea how to save her village. At this moment, she has definitively failed at everything she set out to do. She has EVERY REASON to doubt the ocean's choice. It's only when she pauses and calms down enough to reflect that she comes to the conclusion that she can try to do this without Maui, even if it might be suicidal. Oh, and speaking of suicidal actions: she follows Maui to Lalotai partially because Maui taunted her and girl's a bit too competitive for her own good, but mainly because they don't fully trust each other yet, and if she loses Maui, she fails her mission.

THANK YOU i thought i was the only one who felt like this. it felt more like a plot outline than a fully fledged story.

For me the most frustrating part of the movie is that the omnipresent-ness of the sea as a convenient helper (as well as the routine 50 foot falls she survived) took away all weightiness and risk from the plot. It felt empty. On the flip side, Star Wars had the force but it was something that the characters had to work hard to access. It was about overcoming intense personal growth and risk. It made the interactions with the force very special. Much more fulfilling.

I feel like this review kinda misses an important aspect (that still can be critised and doesn't entirely fix the issues within the movie), which is that Moana throughout it doesn't believe she's the hero- she's a deliverer of the hero, and that, though not fixing, adds far more depth to every scene than I felt was expressed here. Moana as a film is meant to critique some aspects of misogyny by presenting a woman who's meant to follow her role, and her learning how to break out of it in many more ways than one. Her moment of doubt isn't just brought on from a mistake, it's from the loss of Maui, and feeling unable to complete it on her own. Though she's incredibly capable, she's also supposed to be secondary on this mission, and her moments of growth is when she realizes she can do that on our own. The life of being a capable but unspoken support is what a lot of women live, and what Disney has failed to ever fight against. But I digress, because political importance doesn't necessarily fix plot- but I think if one looks for that messaging, then her personal growth has a lot more weight to it.

I honestly related a lot to Moana feeling like giving up after a mistake - something I've noticed within myself is that no matter how confident I feel about something, one setback can knock my self esteem way down. Doesn't matter if I've been getting straight As throughout the topic, one D and I'm wondering if I even should have started it in the first place, if I'm even going to pass. Yes, if does seem a bit strange how she just decides to give up - if you yourself don't do the same thing, I guess. I don't know, I just felt that this particular part of the video rang a bit hollow to me.

The inclusion of the sentient ocean was a mistake in my opinion. Why can't the ocean just take the heart back? Why moana? I guess maybe moana is needed to calm ta ka but it really feels like the ocean is more capable. That and it helps moana only when it's convenient for the plot. When it could really serve to help it's absent. Perhaps this is moana can learn to do on her own except when the ocean does step in. Point still stands though that the ocean was ready to drown moana and her irrelevant pig before the quest could even start.

@MHS-us1qv

5 жыл бұрын

Probably because Te Ka is a lava monster and the ocean would boil off before it even got close to restoring the heart?

@MochaLatta

5 жыл бұрын

I feel like the ocean should have been guided by Moana's emotions. Would have been better in my opinion..

@rugvedkulkarni1593

2 жыл бұрын

It is pretty heavily implied that the ocean wants people to traverse it. And it picks Moana to bring back her people tradition of wayfinding.

Personally, I related to Moana's character and saw many of her actions (including the dive into the realm of monsters) as an attempt to prove to herself, to Maui, and to the ocean that she was qualified to be a hero. Most of her conversations with Maui center on her being a ludicrous choice for a hero. The scene where she tells the ocean that she isn't the right person appeared to me to be the moment when all of her internal self doubt came out because of the shame and helplessness she felt as a result of making a wrong call and losing Maui's cooperation. Maui tells her that the ocean chose wrong. And Maui is a legendary demigod who I'm sure she sees as far more competent than herself.

I really agree with this video and it explained why i feel this movie is kind of forgettable, but I think you should explain a little bit more on some parts. For example, in the "all is lost" scene where Moana wants to quit and she receives encouragement from her grandma, when you said "nothing fundamental about her character was challenged, she just makes a mistake" I think i realized something: Moana isn't really a solid character. How would you describe her personality? Sometimes she's cocky (when bragging in front of Maui "yes, i just did that") and stubborn (Following Maui to the Realm of Monsters) but other times she's submissive, like never standing against her father for being too over-protective (until she receives the heart from her grandma) and then here she is having lots of self-doubt for just one mistake. If one would describe Moana's personality it would be: stubborn and insecure. That sounds like a contradiction, and sometimes it is. A stubborn person most of the time believes they're right no matter what, and an insecure person always question themselves when making a decision or action. I believe the creators wanted to avoid the "bland protagonist" cliché by giving her these two traits, without realizing that those are opposing traits if not handled right. And they make this big self-doubt scene (whit song and all) just so she can be relatable, even when the mistake she made didn't ruin absolutely everything. It would have been more effective if she was known from the beginning of the story as a character with a big flaw, for example: impulsive. If she had this flaw more emphasized before, then this scene would have been meaningful: she must acknowledge her flaw so she can surpass it and do the right thing. But she doesn't receive the right character development for that. Before this scene we wouldn't have called her impulsive because she has never been that in such a notorious amount. Notice how I said "sometimes" and "if not handled right". I believe what would have made the story much better is if the movie had more running time. More time to develop Moana as a character outside of her surroundings, to give a better balance to these two traits she has. Anyway, I could be wrong, maybe there's something else in the movie that has to be noted. Writing a story and a character is harder than anyone would think, and what the creators managed to do with this film is still impressive. I really like this movie and nothing will change that.

I couldn't convince myself to rewatch this movie...this is why.

Great video, I thought Moana was fun but had a lot of issues. My biggest issue was the scene with her grandmother where she breaks down and says that she is not capable. You're right she literally succeeded in everything that she did but they just shoehorned in this "emotional" scene without her ever actually failing and justifying her self doubt.

@ZoraTheberge

6 жыл бұрын

NMD but that’s so so so early on in the film. Since that point we had seen her learn how to sail. Her initial attempt at sailing is to prove to her that it’s not going to be easy to complete her quest/that without the call to action and initiation by her grandmother’s death it wouldn’t be possible. How Far I’ll Go pt 1 is more about character/world development in the first act. And the reprise begins act 2 as she begins her quest. A failure that could result in that scene would be that maybe she lost the heart. She’s really more worried about Maui’s failures as it’s initially presented that he alone has to defeat Te Ka. Had she taken agency to complete her goal beyond failing to assist Maui, her actions might feel valid.

Again, great work here. Very well constructed analysis with a great sense of clarity. Keep working hard to talk about the things you're passionate about, and you will experience a lot of growth quickly!

Imo the last good movie Disney made was princess and the frog. Disney and pixar have lost their magic :( I agree 100% with this video essay. Moana left me feeling empty and non-magical.

She doesn't just return to the mundane, she returns as a leader and the trials before that served as her initiation. I think Propp's strucktures work a lot better with Moana than Campbell's. Honestly, i loved the film specifically for how well it represented all of those folklore tropes. ALSO: But I understand your points - modern and archaic elements are just kind of clashed together and that's why the story feels very disjointed. I wish they went full-on with all the folklore but it probably wouldn't work so well for an avarage modern viewer.

My big problem with Moana had a lot to do with that. Moana's introduction song is all about her conflict between what she wants (to explore the ocean) and her duty to the community. Technically this is resolved by the ending: her people are explorers and she can do both... Except that conflict isn't resolved at the end of the movie, and it's not solved by Moana: it's solved in the very beginning because there's this prophecy that says she has to leave the village. Like, can you imagine how much more powerful it would be if she discovered the problem BY going exploring? But instead, yeah, she's incredibly passive. It's like if someone told Hiccup "Go befriend this dragon, it'll help end this war."

You know, I really don't want to do this, but I really really can't agree with anything you say, and that's primarily for just one reason You seem so intent on trying to stuff moana into the concept of the hero's journey, that you can't see it as being anything but that. I'll start of chronologically. You seem very intent on seeing the jump into the world of monsters as a test of courage, when really it isn't, it's just a jump into the realm of monsters. We've kind of realized by this point (even moana) that maui does not hate moana, nor will he do something that will kill her, but in his anger at what happened to him, in relation to all the work he did and the little thanks he got, he's become something of a cynic (just one with a happy exterior). Moana jumps into the monster's world knowing this and the reason she did it was the save the world (just a quick reminder that by that point in the movie her island was dying an she had been shown a vision of what would happen should nothing be done, if you're wondering why she did what she did). Of course, I'm not saying this was in no way a test of courage, but even by the book stories such as this aren't in every way consistent with the here's journey. On to the second point, maui's comment. This one really blindsided me, but I think that again, with your desire to see this as nothing but a by the books hero journey, you seem to have once again missed this. That scene was indeed not the first time he had complemented her actions, but it was the first time he's done it unprovoked. In the shark scene and all previous other altercations where he praised her work, he'd done so either as an afterthought (E.g "you done goofed, how could you have though that was a bad ides, so stupid. At least you made sure you got out alive, but so stupid) or unwillingly (like when he was saved and was a shark as you'd shown us). It was the first time he had approached her unprovoked to sincerely comment on her good deeds so far, while making no attempt to (really) demean them. The fact that he did it just before facing something that could have been lethal is only logical And honestly, I think your last point is just a crystallization of the fact that you really seem to be missing what Moana's role in the movie is as i think her action, while whiny, are justified because- 1.) In her arrogance (a trait the movie has made very clear those around her disapprove of and has been a source of several of the movies conflicts) she decided to ignore maui which 2.) Damaged maui's weapon and betrayed his trust, this just after finally getting him to open up to her (read the above) and as far as she knows 3.) She just done goofed and messed up (what she saw) as her only chance to say the ocean (read 2). She is quite aware of the fact that without the help of maui, unless movie shenanigans happen, tefiti would not let her across, and in fact after the pick me up by her Grandmother, hearkening back to your comments on her first actions, she went again on what she saw only as a suicide mission, because she had no other choice. Heck, if not for the fact she realized lava girl (SB&LG references!) was tefiti, it would have indeed been a suicide mission And honestly, I think your biggest problem comes from the fact that you think Moana is the hero who will save us all. And I believe the movie makes it quite clear she isn't, or wasn't originally intended to. If you think about it, the ocean makes it quite clear that her job is to get Maui to do it. What, you don't see what I mean? Look at the movie again. She's given the gem by the ocean, shipped to maui and basically tags along with him for the duration of the movie. and heck, if their original plan had worked, she'd have been little more than the boat(cab) driver that convinced maui to do good and took him on his journey, and if you give the movie a second watch, I think this is quite clear. While it's easy to miss this with all the hero-ing shes doing, you can go and read a plot summary now, don't worry, I'll wait... You see what I mean? The reason why her 'heroics' don't seem earned, id because up till near the end, her 'heroics' were just her going over and above her job description, not her job description

Your third argument was by far the most convincing... I was doubtful through the first two but definitely made some good points in part 3

I just feel like personifying the ocean was a bad choice and is what mainly makes the story of the characters feel detached. The ocean acts as a narrator who tells the audience what’s going on but then it does what the narrator shouldn’t do in a heroic movie; it talks to and guides the protagonist. In order to be a hero, the protagonist needs to become a hero on their own and with little aid. The ocean acts as an all-knowing being that guides Moana, so her being a hero doesn’t really feel earned, as you said. She didn’t have to use any defining character traits to work herself out of sticky situations, the ocean helped her or told her how to. Then, it’s even weirder when the ocean doesn’t help her out in certain situations. Like, it’ll help her only sometimes but every once in a while, it wants her to figure things out for herself. But she should’ve been figuring things out for herself the whole time with the help of tangible characters, not God-like figures.

@PlanetZoidstar

5 жыл бұрын

The Ocean basically a DM who railroads you hard through the D&D story they want to tell.

Another thing wrong with this film is the ocean as a character. In the beginning Moana's dad lost his friend in a boating accident and thus he is scared to let anyone go out. That part should have set up tension for the rest of the movie, and have consequences, and show that Moana's life is great danger by disobeying her father. But since the ocean is a character and Moana's friend, she is at absolutely no risk to be killed at sea, and that removes any potential tension the film would be going for.

OMG like I have stuff to do and I found your channel and now I can't!!! I'm binge watching all your essays awesome keep the good job

This is how I feel about Moana. It was good but forgettable and kinda disappointing after how people hyped it up.

For me, Moana failed to take me on a fun adventure. Moana was just doing a chore, it seemed. I was expecting fun shenanigans with the ocean, with it showing its affection for her. After all, it chose her. I loved Maui. He was fun, had a great tattoo buddy, a good backstory that should have been used more, but he shouldn't have to carry the whole movie. I love movies that feel like they last a long time, like Coraline or Zootopia. They explore the world they live in to the best of their ability with the time they have. Moana didn't. It looked pretty, but it didn't feel right. It lacked passion for the mythology it was given to build upon

@animezae

3 жыл бұрын

Was Mulan a fun adventure?

I like your analysis and see where you come from, even if I don't always agree. Seeing those scenes that fall flat in this movie again makes me think that their worst flaw is that there wasn't enough time spent on the characters fears and doubts, not enough emphasis on the dangers and the pressing time, probably traded off for more funtime. In all honesty, the story behind Moana could be (and is) really dramatic, but they tried very hard to keep it lighthearted for their younger audience. Still loved the movie when I saw it, just forgot about it really quickly.

Thank you for summing up exactly how I felt about this movie, but couldn't verbalize myself. Because I live in Australia, we had to wait several months for Moana to show here. My first exposure to this film was the scene near the end where she faces off with Ta-Ka. It was beautiful and mesmerizing, I was so hyped to think the whole movie would reflect that one scene! So I finally saw it and...yeah, great music and gorgeous animation...but very underwhelmed, and disappointed to mostly find a pretty typical/predictable heroes quest/buddy adventure movie. Even if Moana wasn't hyped like crazy, I still would have been pretty 'meh' on it.

I know this is an old video, but both of the last two main points are grounded in pasifika culture. It does the work in a different context, and relates to who it is supposed to.

Weird. I agreed with your thesis (I pretty much felt like it was a really nice movie with a lot of nice stuff that doesn't quite come together for a satisfying whole) but I ended up disagreeing with all of your specific criticisms. I think the problem is Maui. Moana serves as a great foil to him by being everything he thinks he is, but he doesn't work as well as a foil for her. If the story had taken greater pains to demonstrate the similarities between his reckless heroism and hers, it would have given Moana cause to question her own actions. Instead of just "sometimes you need a better hero to fix what another hero broke" we could have had a moral about the importance of self-reflection. He still needs redemption, but it should come from Moana realising she's on the right path because she's been asked to help, and showing Maui how he went astray by doing things no one asked for. Leaving that as subtext left both characters' emotional arcs incomplete.

God dammit, that 'remember who you are' scene is such a good example and so fucking good that I started tearing up, even when it was completely isolated from the rest of its movie.

@katec708

6 жыл бұрын

Cobalt360Degrees I immediately got the goosebumps and started tearing up when it played. TLK fucks me up, man.

Thank you! This actually helped me to put a finger on something I was also pondering ever since I watched that movie. It was pretty, and fun, and I liked the character concepts, but still... something was missing and I couldn't figure out what it was because, like you said, the basic elements of the hero's journey are all there. And STILL I felt empty at the end of it. I thought it might be because Moana herself doesn't really have a big character change. She starts out as a girl who loves the sea, is independant and wants to travel and she ends as the very same thing, basically. So I thought that maybe she does not have a tragic flaw, and the main conflict does not matter as much to the viewer because since there is no major flaw in her (except for the whole "what is the backstory of my people"-aspect that is not about HER specifically, only about why she does not fit as nicely into her surroundings back home as she should, meaning the person who has to change is everyone else, not her), there is nothing she has to actively overcome to become a heroine. Or, like you put it, nothing is earned because she starts out strong and ends equally strong. A while back I watched a video essay that compared Pocahontas and Moana, basically bashing down Pocahontas for several reasons (arguing it doesn't hold up with time, being a movie produced by white male men about a sensitive part of Native American History and so on...). It was a good essay, and I agreed on most of the essayist's points concerning racism and so on but I still could not help saying "Yeaaaah you're probably right, Pocahontas has all those problems and Moana manages to SOMEWHAT stear clear of them buuuut... then again... Pocahontas makes me cry, and cheer for the main character, and shudder at the bad guy..." (who in my opinion is not Radcliffe, but the fear of the unknown in every human, which leads to prejudice, which leads to hatred/racism - and that can all be transcended by tolerance, acceptance and love. Which is an amazing message, if you think about it) "... and Moana does not". On that note, Pocahontas I think has a tragic flaw in the beginning: She can't commit to her duty and questions her place in the world. Sure enough, her duty turns out not to be what her father wanted it to be, but still, her climactic character moment is the realization of which path she has to take, an active decision to do something about the problem she alone can see. Moana lacks that agency, I feel like, and that is a horrible shame. I don't want to push you to do a video on that but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Thanks again, great video!

@MsBrendalina

6 жыл бұрын

This was a very good point. Moana might be a better movie than Pocahontas overall (mainly with regard to the sensitive racial issues and the fact that it doesn't use a real person's name to tell a totally fabricated story). But, despite that, it doesn't resonate as strongly on an emotional level as Pocahontas did for me. And now I can finally put my finger on why. Pocahontas is seriously challenged in her film, faces SEVERE consequences for making dumb choices, and is changed as a person by the time the credits roll. And Moana...doesn't deal with any of that. Moana starts the movie being spunky and confident and she ends it the same way Another point is that the musical numbers in Pocahontas felt more natural than the ones in Moana. When I saw Moana, it felt like most of the songs were forced in because "a song needs to be here" and not because it flowed well with the story. Yeah, the songs were good. But that didn't make them feel any less forced and unnecessary.

@vilwarin5635

6 жыл бұрын

For the songs, I felt they were a bit weird. Not bad songs, but a bit strange, compared with the background sound. All the OST was based in typical music, and then, the singed songs were main pop songs. I don´t understand why they made that strange choice, it felt ackward

@vilwarin5635

6 жыл бұрын

Grilac I hated the hermit crab scene. That song was so misplaced! It broke all the rithm. The song was very good, but in that scene, while the two of them were running for their lives... It was like the visuals told one story and the sound another

@katec708

6 жыл бұрын

Drakendottir yeah like you said, Pocahontas denying her duty and her people had serious consequences but for Moana, it didn’t. She ignored her duty to her people as princess of her island because of her own, selfish yearning to explore the ocean. Instead of that backfiring, she was right. She was right all along and was rewarded for her selfish actions. She experiences no consequences and no character growth.

@Drakendottir

6 жыл бұрын

Grilac I had to search and rewatch it but yeah, that's the essay I was talking about. It is really well done, as I said before, and I agree with many of the points made. I just felt that she somehow bashed Pocahontas a bit too harshly... but maybe that's just me or that's because I'm an aspiring writer myself and I look at almost every story first and foremost in regards to why it works or does not work, and what I can learn from it for my own craft. Pocahontas has many, MANY flaws. It's still one of my all-time favourites and I can see myself re-watching it at age 80 and still crying at the end. Moana? I don't think I'll remember it at age 80. And that is a damn shame because it has many things going for it. As Big Joel said it so brillantly (and I'm paraphrasing here): I really liked it. But I wanted to love it, and I just... didn't. Kate C Exactly. :)

I like Moana but it did feel like they were just checking the list of things they needed to do in this type of story, thanks for your time in exploring why it felt that way.

Thank you for explaining why I had that same “lukewarm” feeling!! I couldn’t put my finger on it. I’ll still watch it repeatedly tho because I love the music and characters!

You always put into words how I have been feeling about movies.

I had a lot of the same opinions. I was never able to understand how so many people had fallen completely in love with what I saw as an ultimately forgettable Disney movie.

@yrobtsvt

6 жыл бұрын

The character designs and artwork are nice, and the songs, while lyrically meaningless, are catchy. I just watched Coco which has plot holes you can drive a truck through, and apparently that's what people care about most

Holy shit, the quality of an analysis like this deserves a hell of a lot more attention from viewers. Amazing work man. I loved this movie mainly because of the directors, Ron Clements and John Musker, whose filmography within Disney never fails to impress me. They created my favourite Disney film - "Treasure Planet" and after watching "Moana", I was left with a feeling of euphoria similar to when I had seen my favourite Disney film as a wide-eyed, adventure-obsessed 5 year old. The soundtrack was mesmerizing and the voice acting of Auli'i Cravalho was exceptional too. In saying all that, however, I too felt like the plot and character developments were a bit iffy, and you've touched on the precise instances where they resonate the most. You've done some really good work here. Well done again, I'd love to see an analysis like this done on Treasure Planet if you're up for it!

@BigJoel

6 жыл бұрын

I've never actually seen treasure planet, but I'd love to check it out. Thanks for watching!

@brody10123

6 жыл бұрын

If you want a good Treasure Planet video watch “Treasure Planet: Disney’s Greatest Mistake”. Despite the title it’s actually the creators favorite Disney movie, and the mistake was how Disney really screwed up the marketing and such.

You kind of focus in on that one scene between the two main characters and tell us why it felt flat. But personally I think the larger issue is that the entire dynamic between Moana and Maui feels insincere and stale somehow, like I see a guy and a girl who mostly do nothing but argue, and by the end they're supposed to have grown close and respect each other, right? To Disney's credit, they didn't try to shove them together in an awkward romance this time, but still, I watch the way they interact for two minutes and it just feels boring and generic, like I've already seen them a million times before and the studio isn't even really trying anymore, just phoning it in when it comes to character interaction.

Maui is much more memorable to me than Moana. Since he is the one that grows as a person during this journey.

Newcomer to your channel here. My comment comes late, but, after scrolling through lots of comments and finding none that express my outlook on the movie, I think you'll find it interesting. I agree with everything you say about this movie, and, yet, I love it, for a very different reason. I'm an island-in-the-middle-of-the-ocean woman, a small island, lived there through college then moved to a very large continent, becoming land-locked, probably for the rest of my life. When I saw Moana, for me there was so much the movie got right about island culture and island ambience, mentally, socially, mythologically and physically that I didn't care that the story was shaky. I felt as though I'd been taken back home for a couple of hours. I was so excited about this I immediately notified my sisters that they should watch the movie. They did, and agreed. None of us were overwhelmed by the story. You're right. It's standard and not always well crafted. But it got island and ocean life right. When you see the ocean every day and know you're surrounded by it, immerse yourself in it almost every day, you interact with it and, more importantly, it interacts with you. When you sail on it on a small boat (yes, I've sailed on an outrigger), you feel as though you could step out of the boat and walk on water (even though you know you can't). The movie, almost wordlessly, recreated island-in-the-middle-of-the-ocean life for me and my sisters. The story? Meh. But the ambience ... so good that I finally bought a copy of the movie so I can visit my own island-in-the-middle-of-the-ocean over and over. My favorite part? When Te Fiti is satisfied, curls up and goes to sleep as, surprise, the serenely mountainous island she is. This makes sense to an island-in-the-middle-of-an-ocean person. Anyway, thank you. Very much enjoying your videos.

This is the first video of yours that I haven't enjoyed or agreed with. I think perhaps, that "pay off" or empty feeling you and other commentators on here are having; is simply the fact their isn't a boss fight at the end. Moana doesn't defeat the bad guy, she gives empathy, love, and trust to someone who has lost their heart. She doesn't win with cunning or being the roughest toughest guy in the ocean... she wins with kindness. For me, that was the greatest most beautiful pay off of them all.

@roshi98

5 жыл бұрын

Great observation, and a sentiment I share, and why use of the "hero's journey" template as set out by Joseph Campbell doesn't quite fit the narrative Moana is expressing.

@TheSmileMile

5 жыл бұрын

I hate to say this, but your comment is bullcrap. Instead of addressing anything Joel said in the video, you picked a scene he didn't even talk about or allude to and asserted that "This must be what he really didn't like about the movie." It's the worst form of straw manning. I DO like the fact that Moana (and more kids movies of recent) end in understandings than with fights. But there are some legitimate criticisms people can have about how the writers developed the characters or story beats, and we shouldn't assign whatever biased motive we can think of to push those criticisms away.

Thank you! I just discovered your channel. While I felt the first couple points were a biiit weak on how you tried to prove them, your final point is spot on. This is an issue not just with Moana but a lot of fiction I've been seeing recently. You hit the nail on the head why these kinds of films feel so empty.

@BigJoel

6 жыл бұрын

thanks for watching--I agree that I could have delivered the first few points better.

I don't know if you read these comments but here goes, First off I love your videos and I think this was a well argued critique, a lot of them landed which I didn't expect to be honest haha. But I think what you're critique is missing is the role the culture plays in the story, that 'all is lost moment' isn't because she doubts herself, it's because she felt like she failed her people. Her parents and her island don't want her out here, they want her safe at home, but she made a promise that she's going to do this. She feels out of place and alien (like you said the ocean was doing all the work for her) so even if she was effective and brave and useful, without maui (the literal god) *her people* were right, she doesn't belong out here. And then her grandma and her ancestors, *her people*, remind her that she does belong out here. Notice that the revelation which begins the plot (finding the boats) is not about Moana it's about her *heritage.* Moana isn't just the story of a singular character and their quest like most disney movies, Moana is not Belle who's the most french trait about her was her braid. The movie is fundamentally about a girl and her relationship with her home and her culture. That's something I personally resonate with a lot and I suspect a lot of POCs did too

@katec708

6 жыл бұрын

SketchyHippopotamus why is it “POC” specifically? And does “POC” mean everyone, except white people? I think that this message applies to almost everyone of all cultures and backgrounds. We all find parts of our identify in our families and our backgrounds. The approval of family can mean everything. I do think though that more modern-living people don’t concern themselves as much with family anymore or heavily value the opinions of family as much as old school cultures do. Makes me think of wedding traditions of Italians and Greeks and the overall closeness of family. But what I’m saying is it isn’t limited to POC, heavily valuing family is found in a shit ton of European cultures as well. I think it’s found in most places honestly, but that closeness is fading as cultures become more homogenous.

The scene with the grandmother works just as well as it did in the Lion King. She had just failed and given up. The demigod she believed was necessary for the mission had just abandoned her. Remember, she thought her role was to collect him and get him to return the heart. She had no reason to believe it was something a mortal could do (your big complaint about the jump). So, yeah, the scene was just as called for as it was in the Lion King. Also, you’ve never heard of someone giving up after failing what they believe was their only chance before?

I'm glad you made this review, because the characters did feel underdeveloped to me. They work too hard on making Moana seem tough, brave and empowered, and didn't work too hard on making her actually struggle or earn her victories. Maui and the Ocean do most of the heavy lifting, and the plot helps her along too much to get invested in her as the protagonist. She feels like a tagalong in her own story, and only matters because Destiny and her being the Chosen One. They also seem really hung up on her being compared to Disney Princesses.

Damn. I loved Moana too. But you make a good argument that I can't refute.

To address the scene where Moana jumps into the hole after Maoi yells, "I'm still falling." Falling does not kill you. Landing does.

@BigJoel

6 жыл бұрын

falling farther distances increases the likelihood that the landing will harm you

@sallylee4924

6 жыл бұрын

That's not what Alice in Wonderland taught me.

While I had much the same impression of the movie, and was quite annoyed how the ocean was just driving the plot along whether the characters wanted to or not, I do wish you'd mentioned the ending. In my opinion at least, it stood out as the ONE moment where Moana really did earn what she'd been questing for, solving the central conflict in a way that only she could. It doesn't come from her just being arbitrarily talented and brave, but from her heart and soul. The fantastic resolution really serves to highlight how regrettably empty of meaning the rest of the conflicts up until that point had been.

Nice analysis, as always. You're quickly becoming one of my favorite analyzers. :) I just wanted to quickly talk about one scene, though; the one you talked about, where the grandmother's ghost comes back. I think the main issue is that you're misinterpreting the point of the scene. As I recall, the point of the scene was *not* a standard "low point in the hero's journey" at all, but something newer: the grandmother was acknowledging that it was wrong of her to put all of this on Moana's shoulders in the first place. She was basically saying, "it wasn't right that I did this to you, but since it's done, you've borne the weight really well, and you have it in you to continue to do so." Looked at in that context, the scene was earned after all, because, as you said, Moana lost heart after just making a mistake... which is something that can happen to people who've had unrealistic expectations placed on them from a young age.

Why I don’t get is why she needed Maui... they say the hook is needed but it’s never explained. Why couldn’t she have just gone and returned the heart by herself? Or asked Maui where te fiti was and then gone alone? I don’t get why Maui is a needed part of the story.

One thing I liked about the scene with the grandmother was her grandmother allowed her the option to go back. Basically "if you can't do this, I love you anyway," and that is new and shows growth. It isn't the I'm disappointed because you're better than this tone of Mufasa, but shows her self-worth should be defined by who she is in her heart regardless of if she returns the heart or not. That kind of message is wonderful. Stories where families put the weight of the fate of the world on young characters are good stories but also kind of messed up. "It's not your fault. I never should have put so much on your shoulders. If you're ready to go home, I will be with you." That is so much more healthy emotionally! She does what she does from her own agency, under her own steam, not to live up to some promise, but knowing she has love, unconditional love. It is a choice she makes for herself. As a person who's really interested and preoccupied with the "why" of things, this distinction is very important and helps shift the narrative from something more like The Lion King, where you can be yourself as long as that coincides with what people expect of you in a role that just happens to save everyone. I adore The Lion King in general, but in terms of setting up expectations for kids, eh, not ideal. I agree her jumping made no sense to me, but I feel like the advances Disney made shouldn't be overlooked.

Also the crab! Comes out of no where and has a random song all to himself... with no reference to him or his love for shiny things earlier in the movie

6:15ish) Saying something is: "... the _nicest_ ..." does _not_ somehow imply it's also the _only_ nice ....

THANK YOU! I have exactly the same feelings and can't undarstand how people don't see it! Thank you for putting it into words. Even though it will mostly fall on deaf ears...

I really love this video..have watched it like three times

(Sorry about the length; turns out I had a lot to say) I think you make some very good points and I can see where you're coming from but I think you're forgetting a key point for some of those scenes: Moana's motivation for going on the journey in the first place. Here's what I mean; you mention her jumping in the entrance for lalotai as empty because there's no reason for her to make the jump at all, and you're absolutely right. There is no reason at all; Maui even tells her to stay with the boat because the realm of monsters is no place for a human but she goes anyway. Where I think you're wrong is that it was meant to show her as being brave. Consider five second earlier when she looks at the ocean and repeats to herself once again "The ocean chose me for a reason" even tho she has no idea what that reason is. Moana wants to be special, she wants to be the chosen one and because of that she takes the unnecessary risk of accompanying Maui to reclaim his hook. From the beginning she "wants adventure in the great wide somewhere" so when her grandma pushes her to take the journey she jumps at the opportunity even tho she failed miserably earlier and almost drowned. Yes, she claims it's only to save her island but really that's only part of it. That's also why she takes the words of her Grandma to heart when she says that she has to find Maui and make him restore the heart when she could have tried to do it herself in the first place. It's because she believes it is her destiny and she has been chosen for that purpose which is why, for me, the scene with spirit grandma near the end is so powerful. Here is Moana, abandoned by Maui, believing she failed to fulfill her role and her grandmother basically says, you know what? it's okay to give up. I''l support whatever decision you make but upon seeing her hesitate she asks "Do you know who you are?" which is when Moana realizes that it doesn't really matter that she's not the chosen one; she can make her own destiny because she is Moana and she's more than capable of doing it on her own terms. Also, you mention that Moana doesn't actually accomplish much, it is the ocean that does most things for her but I also have to disagree with you there. Even tho the ocean does keep Maui and Moana on the boat, in the end it's Moana's words that convince Maui to cooperate. And although it does make sure that she gets to Maui's island safe, it's Moana that has to sail there teaching herself how to navigate the ocean. I think the implication is that the ocean can't really control the storms so when one hits and Moana asks it for help it kind of just makes sure she drifts in the right direction but that she was close to the island anyway (I will admit that I might be overthinking it in this particular instance tho). I do agree however that, no matter how much I like the characters and their back and forth, Moana and Maui's relationship does seem a bit rushed.

Great points. I felt there was some weight missing from the movie, but couldn’t quite put my finger on it until now.

Yes, this explains the emptiness of the movie. It's all the motions of the hero's journey without any of the emotion or sacrifices that come with it.

This is pretty much how I felt, if you say you don’t love Moana, people think you’re racist.

Disney has basically come around 360 degrees to make bland standard stories again like Snow White or Cinderella. I feel like they are thinking too much about not having a scandal and pushing all the right buttons and too little about having good characters and telling a story.I liked watching the movie for the music and visuals, but when it came to stories and characters, it had nothing: No character I will remember for more than two days. No conflicted character that goes under your skin like Frollo or Scar. One thing that you could have also mentioned is how the supposed danger is totally ignored most of the time. For the better part of the movie I completely forgot why they are doing this and honestly I just watched 4 Moana Videos before I remembered again that there was supposedly a dying island at stake. But as long as Disney movies are shaped by ratings and avoiding bad publicity instead of art and storytelling we will get these bland, watered down and washed out movies.

@theduchess1877

6 жыл бұрын

Lilofee Vomsee I really don't like these arguments based off nostalgia. You are COMPLETELY free to enjoy whatever you want, whether it be older Disney, or newer Disney. If you prefer older Disney movies, that's fine.

I personally found a much bigger issue with the film to be that more than half of it is inconsequential and adds nothing to the overall story being told. For example, why does Moana need Maui? She has the heart from the get go and could return it herself without him. At the end of the day he ends up ditching her anyway which leads to her going it alone so why is he even there aside from Moana needing someone to talk to? Sure, he ends up popping in to help her out but she didn’t know that and they could’ve just written him out of the scene so Moana saves the day on her own. They needed to either create a plot reason as to why Maui needs to go with her or give him some sort of motivation to tag along. The kakamora, why are they here? They’re in the film so Maui can have a moment where he realizes that “hey, that Moana chick isn’t half bad”, but since Maui is an unnecessary addition to the story they add nothing. Tamatoa, why is he here? The only reason they go to him is to get Maui’s hook and be admittedly very entertaining. However, since they’re only there because of Maui and because Maui is an unneeded element in the story the whole scene is pointless and only derails the story. Instead, if I were in charge of the screenplay I’d make it so Tamatoa has the heart and Maui is the only one that knows that, Moana instead goes on her journey not because the ocean gave her the heart but rather to save her island from the effects of Te Ka. This creates a reason for Moana to bring Maui along and, after they bond, why he decides to tag along to Te Fiti. It would also explain why she’d have to go with him to Tamatoa as she’s motivated to retrieve the heart and doesn’t trust Maui yet at that point in the story to not bail on her once he gets it.

Amazing assessment. It explains exactly the problem I had with it, even though I wasn't sure how to express it myself, or what the problem really was. I just knew I "wasn't buying it." I think your explanation of how _the Lion King_ built up the WHOLE MOVIE to that one moment is what really revealed to me the problem with Moana.

I'm so glad that I wasn't the only one who thought this. I felt that emptiness every time I watched the movie. I love the music and color and animation, but it was just lackluster for the reasons you gave. I'm glad I can just show this whenever someone questions me.

Even I thought of why Moana jumped, but I overlooked it.

You know, I never thought of this but why didn't the ocean just return the stone itself in the first place. Why find someone worthy, who might not even succeed, when the ocean can just give it back by itself. Unless Te Ka wanted Maui to return it since he was the only that stole it in the first place (the worthy person being someone that is able to find Maui and drive him to return the heart instead of the one meant to return it), but that didn't happen anyway since Moana returned it. The ocean is just too powerful.

A neato little easter egg I noticed but my family who I was watching it with didn't was at the end, when the camera is zooming in through the foliage to whatever point it was zooming in to, there could be seen for a second the flower bloomed from a drop of sunlight from Tangled. Apologies for making that sentence so long.

thank you for putting this feeling into words, i too felt unsatisfied at the end of it but couldn't really put my finger on why, the main character is underdeveloped, i don't understand why she believes the things she believes, or whether she's a different person at all after she goes back, there's no inner conflict to resolve and no particular decision of hers that makes a difference, so in short she hardly feels like an agent in her own story

I’m just binging your videos and I love them

To be fair, she hears the splash a little bit after Maui jumps. She could assume it's safe from that, since science hasn't existed to tell her about surface tension

Darn I thought this was gonna be about Moana's canonical job outside of being a Disney protagonist

Old Joel hits hard with the little music

"She's just sort of a figure here that will anything vaguely heroic." Damnnm Joel, why you gotta destroy Moana with facts and logic!? Hahaha.

Well, if you listen closely, you can hear a splash made by Maui, which lets her know that it's just water down there. I know the force when she smacks onto the water can still kill, but still. Just thought I'd point out.

i agreed with you soooo much! It was so hard for me to explain to people why I wasn't the biggest fan of it and you explained it perfectly!

?? The reason she jumped into the hole is because it was believed that Maui was believed to be the one that was supposed to put the heart back. She already knows that he will escape at any chance he gets and leaving him to get his magical fish hook by himself would lead to her losing track of him forever. Plus, you hear a splash after he says "I am still falling!" so she knows that water is down there.

The first attempt at getting past Takar does show Moana's character flaw blowing up in her face though. Moana is impulsive, Moana assumes she has the ability to do whatever she needs to do, and Moana not only takes pride in being chosen by the ocean, she sees it as an inherent part of herself, that she has heard the ocean's call her whole life because she is special. This can be seen throughout the movie. When she first attempts to leave the island with no plans or preparation, when she jumps to the realm of monsters. It isn't just a mistake that she is punished for when Takar defeats them. It's her pride. Her assurance that she will succeed because she is the chosen one. It isn't even the defeat that brings about her giving up, it's Maui saying that the ocean chose poorly. Seeing her grandmother isn't about regaining pride or assurance, it's about Moana learning that the ocean never called to her instead she had been calling to the ocean. She was chosen not because she was special, but because she saw the ocean as spwcial. And she returns to her quest a more humble person. It plays so differently to the equivalent scene in the Lion King because Simba and Moana have opposite character flaws. Simba's flaw is shame while Moana's is pride.

Great analysis! On top of the points you made, I think the movie suffered from a classic "passive lead character" problem, where a lot of the things happening in the story happen to Moana, instead of her choosing to do something and actively driving the plot forward. I think that's why the beginning of the movie dus work for me: she dares to go out at sea alone, even though it doesn't work and she has to work through that. Additionally, it sorta feels like Maui is having to go through the same journey as Moana, instead of being more of a mentor. This conflates the plot and makes it feel a little repetitive, in my opinion.

Thank you so much! I felt the exact same way about Moana (and about Frozen 2, for that matter), but couldn't put it into words.

Not to mention the fact the ending was terrible. Like it didn't make sense and was a big flop. The entire movie kept building up saying that Teka (It think that's how you spell it?) was going to be such a powerful being that we as an audience expected to have this huge and epic fight scene where Moana and Maui could work together and show just how much they've bonded but that's not what we got. We got some attempt of a "plot twist" which didn't even make sense and ruined the build up. I couldn't wait to see Moana's skills and Maui's powers used together to fight the evil monster and get this huge epic fight. Instead, it was a little big of sailing and Maui flying. And that whole plot twist left me with so many questions too. Why did that happen? If Teka got the stone in the first place, would she have turned back? If not, why not? What exactly is the stone capable of as we never really see it being used as the ocean seems to be its own entity? Is the stone the only thing keeping Te Fiti from becoming Teka? Why? I just feel so confused after watching it.

Wow I totally agree with this, I also wanted to love the movie and some of the songs were amazing. But I had the feeling that something was missing and you did a good job explaining it here. I feel like Moana would have been a more compelling hero if just a few things were different. For example, when leaving Maui's island, he doesn't want to bring her but the power of the ocean kind of forces him to. What if Moana had appealed to Maui's vanity, and convinced him to help by telling him that people would praise him for returning the Heart of Te Fiti? Moana maybe says, "On my island, everybody is saying Maui used to be great but he hasn't done anything lately." Then when Maui agrees to help, it was because of Moana's cleverness in reading his character, rather than just a magic wave doing all the work. And maybe at the end after she returns the Heart, Maui completes his character arc by telling Moana she doesn't have to spread the story. He is content to have helped her quest because it was the right thing to do, and not just for seeking worship from others. And Moana's failure to pass Te Ka, in the movie it isn't due to any character reason. Like you said, just a mistake. But what if Moana was insecure about being the Chosen One? Like maybe she felt throughout the movie, not just at the end, that she wasn't worthy? And because of her lack of confidence, she hesitates to sail through and this causes her to miss the opporunity to pass the rocks. Then her grandmother's appearance is more meaningful, like Mufasa in the Lion King. Her grandmother gives Moana the inspiration she needs to overcome her fear and try again, fulfilling her destiny as the hero.