I'm 78 years old now so I would have been 23 in 1965. I'm from South London, working class but went to grammar school. I think, overall, this is a pretty accurate conversation although I feared it might stray in to the 'Pete and Dud' (q.v. KZread) duologues of that period. It was how I remember exchanges between friends, sort of 'geezerish' in places with Tom very much a 'worker' and 'Simon' a bit like me in accent: for example: 'restaurant' instead of restron'. The glottal stops are nicely done and I loved 'pahnd' instead of 'pounds'. For me, a very enjoyable hark back to those times!

@Theactivepsychos

2 жыл бұрын

Who were doing a pretty realistic parody of the bog standard conversation.

@kuchcyk

2 жыл бұрын

Pete and Dud came to mind immediately

@lindsaypritchard1805

2 жыл бұрын

My only comment is about history more than language. Do you think £5.00 a week is really accurate. I have just looked at the Bank of England inflation calculator and it comes up with that being about the equivalent of £100.00 a week. Did manual workers really earn that little then?

@johnhockenhull2819

2 жыл бұрын

I generally agree. I don’t think ‘on yer bike’ was a mid 60’s phrase. My first thought as this started was Chas Hodges and I think it would be worth listening to some of the interviews that he did.

@bigaspidistra

2 жыл бұрын

@@lindsaypritchard1805 Average wage for a manual worker over 21 in 1960 was a bit over £14 a week.

I, too, am 78 and grew up in South London. I agree that you have captured the sounds and speech patterns of London in the 60s very accurately. While ‘pound’ was used I think ‘quid’ would have been perhaps used more frequently. Also ‘dosh’ was often used instead of money. Of course back then we had the old pound/shillings/pence system which gave rise to many slang words for particular coins, eg ‘Tanner’ for sixpence, ‘Bob’ for shilling. Phrases like ‘a couple of Bob’ meaning not much money were common. You could write a thesis on this subject. Best wishes, Tom Evans

@divarachelenvy

2 жыл бұрын

the slang terms for money sure would have been used...

@Richard-zm6pt

2 жыл бұрын

I do remember the money, learning to add and subtract pounds, shillings, and pence. I agree "one pound, ten and six" would be a natural way to say it. I heard the slang terms for all the money, but I didn't use all of them. I never used tanner, but we did use penny, h[ei]'pny, thrupp'nce, and farthing in conversation. I remember hearing florin and guinea and using them sometimes. Bob stands out in my memory as slang for shillings, and used a lot, and quid for pound. We were using pennies, especially, from Queen Victoria's reign. Occasionally, some would crop up from her early reign (pretty black and worn). They changed her profile when she got older. A lot of Edward VII and George V coins were in circulation then. I have a little collection of coins from the 1960s.

@chasselmes8141

2 жыл бұрын

I was only a mere 10 in '65 but from what I remember it would be '4 pa'hnd 7 and free' rather than 4-7 and three Quid would have been for round pound numbers, 3 quid, 4 quid etc, as it still is now,. Slough boy but my parents were from Kensal Green. My Mum's sister married a chap from Tooting, seemingly a different accent to my Mum, but still London.

@PsychicLord

2 жыл бұрын

@@chasselmes8141 Agreed, in South London, one would not say 4/7/3. A tad under a 'lady' or 5 quid was more likely to be heard.

@14caz68

2 жыл бұрын

My dad always said fruppence ! My aunt when going into ‘tahn’ shopping was ‘I’m goin’ up West’. I miss all that !

I was 22 in 1965. The conversation is not unlike some that could be overheard in almost any sarf Lunnun pub at that time, with the exception of the use of "basically". Basically, "basically" wasn't used half as much then as it basically is now. I first basically noticed its increasing frequency about 10 - 15 years ago. Yeah was heard at that time among students. Older, working-class people in south London quite often said "yest", with a final "t" after an "s", which was a bit odd because final "t"s were usually replaced by glottal stops.

@mmff5242

2 жыл бұрын

replace basically with "as it goes"

@ajs41

2 жыл бұрын

Did people use "ultimately" at that time? I would have guessed not.

@bobisallright

2 жыл бұрын

My dad speaks of ‘basically’ as something that came in around 1960/61, because it was a popular word to use for comic effect when he was at university. He says students would throw an ironic, over-enunciated “basically” into a sentence to let everybody know not to take them too seriously. Or to be archly pseudo-intellectual. But, as is the case with these things, you use a term comically for a while, it ends up becoming part of your general vocabulary.

@ajs41

2 жыл бұрын

@@bobisallright My father was at Northampton College of Advanced Technology between 1957 and 1961, which is now City University. I'll have to see what he thinks about these things.

@Correctrix

2 жыл бұрын

@@mmff5242 Maybe “Know what I mean?” or “At the end of the day,” depending on context.

My Dad came from Faversham but we lived in Dartford and he always called other blokes Guv'nor. i.e. 'morning guv' nor'. I loved the way he spoke, I miss him.

You did well with that. I’m 77 and grew up in Dartford and came to Canada in 1967. The things I remember things like “I fink” and “done” instead of “did”. I don’t remember hearing “fucking” much. The worst we could say was “bloody”.

@paulreeves8251

2 жыл бұрын

And 'blimey'

@npickard4218

2 жыл бұрын

I'm an American. What's the difference between bloody and bleedin'? Americans never use either of the two.

@npickard4218

2 жыл бұрын

@@paulreeves8251 Is blimey considered old fashioned in England. I watch the old series 'Are You Being Served?' and they use blimey a lot but when I visit England I don't hear anyone saying blimey.

@nicolasfauvel5934

2 жыл бұрын

@@npickard4218 Yes. I think you will only hear "blimey" from a very few older individuals (say over 65), from London and the South East, and only in very colloquial speech.

@blomidon

2 жыл бұрын

@Alex Turner According to most people, but I know it has changed. That may be because when I first started teaching here I may have consciously managed my accent to be fully understood. 20 years ago back in Dartford I went in a pub and asked for a pint of bitter and the bar man asked “Are you from America?” I politely corrected him and I told him “No I’m from Canada”.

This is a fascinating project, which has got me thinking a lot. I was 20 in 1965, living in a North Kent suburb, right on the London border. It was largely populated by working-class ex-Londoners like my parents, who were from Greenwich. They spoke a dialect that was distinctly South London - quite different from East Enders who were just across the river. They didn’t say “fings” or “ain’t”, but they did drop all aitches and the “g” in “-ing”. I probably said things like “I never done it!” when I was small. I know I said “It don’t arf ‘urt!” But it seems we gradually ironed out these dialect features, no doubt due to the influence of reading (comics, magazines, books) and the always-on radio (BBC - very RP). So I think we probably evolved a new North Kent accent, since many of us were the first generation to be born there. Not dissimilar to Tom’s. Back to the video… I feel that Simon sounds way too educated, like the one who got through the 11-plus but keeps in touch with an old a mate, toning down his speech with a few “ain’ts” and dropped aitches to fit in. But then, with that education, he’d have a white-collar job. Vocabulary… Any use of an educated-sounding word would be pounced on and mocked. (“Do what?” “’oo’s ‘e when ‘e’s at ‘ome?”) There was a lot of inverted snobbery then. Rent… All working-class kids had to pay their mother board, even if they’d just left school at 15. I had to pay a third of my starting pay, which was 6 pounds a week. Girls… Blokes didn’t speak very respectfully of girls, and they certainly didn’t discuss their feelings. Being with a girl for two years would probably get you teased about “wedding bells.” This dialogue about their relationships doesn’t ring true. Names… Rosalind, Victoria, Katie and Laura are all middle-class names. Working-class girls had names like Linda, Carol, Maureen, Doreen, Patricia, Jean, etc. Appearance… There was no long hair in 1965, except among rock/blues bands. As late as 1969, I was getting discriminated against for having slightly long hair (a lot shorter than Tom’s). Only students and creative people could have beards - you’d be unemployable in most fields with a beard. Both these young men look very scruffy for 1965, when we took pride in our appearance. Hope this helps! Sorry about the length.

@waltonsmith7210

2 жыл бұрын

Can't you take pride in your appearance AND be scruffy? It sounds like you were allowed to take pride in one particular kind of forced appearance.

@johngreen6736

2 жыл бұрын

@@waltonsmith7210 Clearly people do take pride in being scruffy today, but that concept did not exist in 1965. Look at the spiffy mods. Look at the pop groups in their sharp uniforms. I didn't consider it a hardship to get dressed in my best to go dancing, or to shop in Carnaby Street. The anything-goes ethic came much later, post-hippie, in the 70s. The 60s was a conservative era.

Two tangentially related musings: - I love when 60s/70s movies or TV serials are filmed on location in a busy city. All the people and cars in the background are just going about their day, living their lives, completely unaware that a fraction of their life is now recorded on a blu-ray disc somewhere. - Often when I see old video or photographs from my local city from the 40s, 50s, 60s or whatever I think "somewhere in that world my grandparents are alive as young people". Especially with moving images, that's a very strange realisation. Like, if only the camera was in a different place, or my grandparents just happened to be in that particular street on that particular day, I could see them. In a way, a video is a virtual representation of world as it was then, but with very limited access.

@jeffreyschweitzer8289

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! But never mind grandparents! I was around myself, but could never have imagined that I could be looking back at myself from a lifetime’s span of years in the future through a tiny computer held in my hand via which I could access almost all the cumulative knowledge of humanity…makes you wonder what future beings are looking at us now.

@nuclearswan

2 жыл бұрын

I love this comment! I wish people were more introspective when describing how they think/feel.

@theseeker4642

2 жыл бұрын

Up here in the English Borders we said " fillums " not films or movies. It's not used nowadays though & only native country people still use the old dialects. I find words & etymology fascinating & much can be learned from the old dialects.

@allisondinham3199

2 жыл бұрын

I still say the pictures and forget I'm 53 😄

The thing that stood out for me was when Tom said he asked the foreman at the factory he worked at for an extra £5 a week. The vast majority of factories at the time were unionised and ran a closed shop, and it's virtually certain that a factory that had a foreman would have been unionised. So Tom would have had any conversations about his wages with his union rep, not the foreman. The other phrase that stood out for me was Tom's use of "negative thinking". I'm not sure but I don't think that entered British English general usage until the 70s and 80s when American self-help books and "positive thinking" became more popular.

@sarahleferne9641

Жыл бұрын

Definitely, no-one said stuff like "negative thinking"

I'm a tiny bit younger and grew up in rural Kent in the 70's. One thing my parents, friends etc used to insert a lot into speech was ' I thought to myself' or "I fought a meself"

@randolph795

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I’m 56 and mum still says ‘I fought meself’. From Essex/Herts border.

@ruadhagainagaidheal9398

2 жыл бұрын

yep, bang on.

@ajs41

2 жыл бұрын

@@randolph795 I don't mean to sound snobbish or pompous, but I assume that way of talking was a very working-class thing. I can't imagine middle-class people saying "fought" instead of "thought".

@randolph795

2 жыл бұрын

@@ajs41 you’re right. My mum is working class rural background although she’d hate me to say that!

@nigelsheppard625

2 жыл бұрын

I think relatedly, people used to say S'mornin, rather than This Morning.

Couple of idioms that struck me as possibly anachronistic (though I certainly don't know for sure): - Euros (as opposed to European Championship, European Cup, or its formal title in 1964, European Nations Cup) - negative thinking - mixed signals - surprisingly, the OED's first citation for "pear-shaped" in the sense of "gone wrong" is a book published in 1983 On "yeah", I do think it was seen as American influence, cos I can remember people like my grandparents (born in the 20s) complaining about it being an "Americanism" in the late 1980s, as indeed I'm sure they had been doing for over 20 years.

@GaryDunion

2 жыл бұрын

@@WinstonSmithGPT Naw.

@helenamcginty4920

2 жыл бұрын

I dont recall 'euro' being used until the actual euro became a currency. Just looked it up. That was 1999. It wasnt even called the EU back in the 70s.

@friiq0

2 жыл бұрын

I believe “yeah” is actually older than “yes”, believe it or not

@GaryDunion

2 жыл бұрын

@@helenamcginty4920 Euro '96 was the first one to be marketed as such (and also the first one I really remember watching).

@GaryDunion

2 жыл бұрын

@@friiq0 Definitely! What I don't know though is did gea/ye/yea survive somewhere in informal or dialectal English continuously from the time it was replaced in standard English by 'yes', and re-emerge from there back into common usage in the 60s; or was its use in the 60s a *new* shortening of 'yes' rather than a resurgent popularity of the pre-existing gea/ye/yea?

I think that starting a sentence with “so” when the meaning is not “therefore” but rather a gap-filler is a recent phenomenon,. I grew up in the 1960s and I don’t remember it being used this way. Other than that, the conversation is quite convincing from both a content and a linguistic point of view.

@catherineladd5300

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. The recent trend to preface a sentence with "So.." I started noticing in the last 8-10 years. I remember hearing it constantly during interviews and thinking what a lazy way of introducing a topic.

@phillyphilly2095

2 жыл бұрын

@Simon Archbold So...just speak how you want to speak and let others speak the way they want to. Your life, liberty or prosperity is not affected in any way whatsoever by speech customs.

@alejandromartinezmontes6700

2 жыл бұрын

@Simon Archbold I will never cease to be surprised by how strongly people can feel about little quirks of language haha.

@phillyphilly2095

2 жыл бұрын

@@WinstonSmithGPT so true

@maknorman7250

2 жыл бұрын

I'm sure there was a lot of he said/she said in relaying a story. For example .'Well I said, "I'll take the dog out later" and she goes "take him out now" and I says " I'll take him out after dinner". She comes back with, "go now or you'll git no dinner".

A subject close to me ‘art. I was 14 in 1965, living in a council flat in the the Borough ( near elephant and castle) , which is SE1. Overall good effort. ACCENT: you got this generally ok, such as bruvver, fink, etc. But, as others have noted, DEE not DAY, me not my, pand for pound. The major area for improvement is you used some words I rarely/never heard: specification (type or make) approaching, initiate (start), accomplish (get done), deteriorate (get worse), village (town or street). Couple of cultural things - not sure teenage London boys would talk so openly about their girlfriends! And in 65 , the only TV football was really the FA cup, although MOTD may have started on BBC2. Anyway, that’s my tuppence worth. Well done

Not sure what's more enjoyable, the video or reading through the comments from the old geezers that were around at the time.

In the context of the price of the shoes, ‘five shillings’ sound a bit stilted - in an informal conversation between mates like this ‘five bob’ seems much more natural to my ear.

I have a tape of me speaking in Northfleet in 1970ish somewhere!

4:50 Not MonDAY or WednesDAY , it’s Mon-DEE and Wens- DEE. I turned 18 in 1965, and lived for a time in Essex. The wages you speak of , £4/7/3 (four pound seven and three) is a wee bit low, I earned £4/4/- a couple of years previously as a first year apprentice age 15-16 and by ‘65 I was getting about £8. Also, shoes were priced in shillings, eg. 79/11, which was spoken as seventy nine and eleven , meaning just a penny under £4. £15 was an AWFUL lot of money for a pair of shoes. I had a pair made to measure in ‘66 for 99/11 - ninety nine and eleven, a penny less than £5. Pre decimal, different goods were priced in different ways- clothes and shoes in shillings, and furniture, white goods and electrical appliances in were priced in guineas. A guinea was £1/1/- or one pound one shilling. Twenty guineas sounded less than £21( about two weeks wages for a working class adult, my foreman electrician got about £12 a week.

Hi Simon, if you want to study extended naturalistic English dialogue from the 60s, you'd do very well to watch some movies from the kitchen sink realism movement. Especially the films of Ken Loach whose style allowed actors to speak freely over each other, presumably with a lot of room for improvisation. Here are some that feature working class accents from the South East in particular: - Cathy Come Home - Up The Junction - Poor Cow

@tomlawson4713

2 жыл бұрын

That’s very interesting Dan! I’ll be sure to watch these myself, I didn’t know you had an interest in this kind of thing. I love your work by the way; 40 Years of Gaming has been a favourite of mine ever since you released it. All the best to you.

Using the word; "exactly" expressively appeared a generation later.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

I only heard it from higher class ppl back then.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

Finding something where a working class person is aping a posh person would be instructive.

@waterdragon2340

2 жыл бұрын

@@rajekamar8473 in which case it would be exEcly

Something you may not have noticed from having been too young: make sure that in the final video the smartphone is replaced with a wristwatch. The Denison smock is a nice touch though.

born in 61, I never heard the word f**k until in my late teens. "bob" instead of shilling. strangely, I remember endless boring conversations about shoes....

I'm Hackney-born, in 1963, East End Jewish, but essentially cockney working-class/lower-middle-class from childhood to early adulthood as my Dad progressed through the Post Office. This is fascinating and well constructed like everything you do Simon. I'm listening to this with an ear to what 'grown ups' sounded like when I was a boy. 'In your dreams' sounds later than the 1960s to me. 'Ultimately' from a really working-class man - again doesn't sound right. 'Bob' rather than 'shillings'. 'Mixed signals' again sounds too modern, as does 'initiate' a conversation. As others have noted Simon's character sounds more educated - a grammar school boy. Overall Tom sounds a bit too polite to me in vocal tone and delivery. If you are going for East End north of the Thames working class then faster, less 'laid back' deliver would be appropriate. Very much looking forward to version 2.

My memory only goes back to the 70s, but I don't remember anyone ever starting a sentence with "so" when answering a question, that only seems to have started about 5 years ago

Re smoking - filterless cigarettes (ie no filter, no 'roach', just tobacco in a paper tube) were common. I have vague recollections of my dad smoking unfiltered 'Senior Service', although he had given up smoking by the time I started school. I don't remember seeing shop bought filters for roll ups at all. I do remember that some pre-rolled cigarettes had filters made from cork.

@mariahamilton5305

2 жыл бұрын

My Dad quit ciggies for a pipe and the odd cigar, but he was middle-class and a Ronnie Corbett-style 'surrey scot'

Bit of research in old newspaper ads - in 1965 a pair of Hush Puppies (not the cheapest) cost three to four pounds (69/11 or 75/11, to be precise). So £11 is a lot unless for protective boots with steel toecaps, maybe.

My dad was born in 58 so he won't have been smoking during the 60s, but when I knew him he would smoke cigarattes without any filter OR roach. Just baccy and paper

One glaring thing for me is “day” and not “Dee” I.e.Mundee, chewsdee, wensdee etc……and “spinning” conversations e.g. “ He turned rahnd an said, and I turned rahnd an said…” there are also lots of words that were rarely used - even among grammar school educated people - we never spoke about maintaining our shoes, but we were always told to keep them in good Nick!

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

Shoes were also looked at as a sign of the person's character. Parents in my family would make you learn how to make them shine. Particular attention would have to be made on the heels and tips. If someone had poor shoes, this was considered to be a sign of poor character. However, most people would only have one pair anyway. Some family's kids had to share shoes to go to school. So attendance was 'patchy'.

@debbiet5130

2 жыл бұрын

Would definitely have been 'Mundee', I think, instead of Monday.

@mokkaveli

2 жыл бұрын

Spinning conversations hahaha that’s a great word to use for that

@rossie79

2 жыл бұрын

My Dad is a Norfolk boy and was a young working man in the late 60s. He still says "Mundee, Toosdee" etc and quite a few older boys in the area still do. 👍🏼

There's an old Dublin accent virtually extinct as well. I love this. Git is a Nickname for Christopher in Dublin 🇮🇪🧚‍♂️☘p.s. work worn leather shoes🤣

@user-td4do3op2d

2 жыл бұрын

Do you have an example of the old Dublin accent?

I was born in 1954 in Sussex and my family moved to Australia when I was six. My mother was a Londoner but our accent was more of an RP. I love this subject and enjoy your videos a lot Simon ❤️🙏🕊️🌳

The accent is London area. Remember that many parts of SE England had not yet succumbed to this accent, and remnants of a more rural type of speech was heard. Each part of S England has (had) slightly different rural accents which grade across from Kent - East Sussex - West Sussex - Portsmouth - Southampton - Dorset - Devon - Cornwall. Amazingly, Bristol and Portmouth are a bit similar, a link to seafaring perhaps? Outside London some people, including myself, tended to avoid the incoming London accent and try to use BBC pronunciation. We did not speak of "Dad", as youngsters do today, as it was considered babyish, and tended to say the Old Man. Swearing was very frequent between young men, more than depicted. The expression "on yer bike" originated I believe in the Thatcher era when a politician said people should get on their bike to find a job, so was not used in 1965. In the 60s, job hunting was not discussed very much because jobs were easy to obtain and it was often uncool to be ambitious or want money, an echo of the hippy movement. If something was more than £12 we did not say twelve and something - that would mean twelve shillings and some pence. I think a pound was always called a quid. The price of shoes is unrealisticially high - my first second hand car was £30.

Yeh or yep instead of yeah perhaps. Also at one point Simon said ‘ultimately’ and also ‘wouldn’t accomplish anything’. Maybe ‘achieve’ would be more believable for a ‘working class’ person. I couldn’t help but notice Simon’s high level of education slipping through in places! I think I notice because I was born (1968 Surrey) to working class parents but went to grammar school and had to polish up my accent a bit!

@ajs41

2 жыл бұрын

Ultimately sounds a bit doubtful to me as a word that might be used in that time and place.

@ryanmoss8732

2 жыл бұрын

@@ajs41 but working class doesn’t necessarily mean they’re thick. Or even if they are you’d still probably hear people using big words to make themselves sound smarter than they actually are. As you do today

I'm American and in my 40s so I'm of no help but I just wanted to say that I love that there are people of my parents' generation participating on KZread (my own parents certainly don't). Thanks for your videos ☺️

@jimcrelm9478

2 жыл бұрын

Echoing this. Unfortunately in southern England there is so much intergenerational hatred, people just radiate hostility, young and old, it's so rare to exchange even a few words with anyone older or younger who isn't a close relative, so it's quite nice to read the comments here (impoverished though the conversations are by the social media nature of the platform).

Enjoy all your videos very much - thank you. I was born in the late 1930s, near Manchester but my adult life has been spent mostly in the South - Wiltshire, Hampshire, Kent and Essex. Dialect and accent have interested me since schooldays and I regret that my parents and my (grammar) school teachers did their best to remove all traces of my 'broad, common' local accent, with its sprinkling of now disappeared dialect words and expressions. But to your request...Your friend sounds more relaxed and natural to me, whilst you remind me of an educated young man - which you are, trying to be one of the local boys. Fine, if that's what you are portraying, but I don't think someone with a university education - as you sound to me, would be applying for the job you describe (not locally. maybe in the West End) and to me you have a little too much RP, and as as others have suggested some rather educated/academic words. To these I would add 'so on,' rather than 'so forth'. Until the early 60s I had never paid more than £5.00 for a new coat, or £3.00 - £5.00 for shoes but bought a very posh coat in 1961 with my first salary. It was a Jaeger make (not brand) and cost £25.00! I remember also a pair of white shiny 'kinky' boots cost me the then vast amount of £28.00 in 1967/8. As a teacher in the early 60s my salary was £625.00 pa. and my first car, a new Ford Anglia cost me (with parental heip) the same.

@tressel2489

2 жыл бұрын

I think it's so interesting to see these prices - as someone born much later, things seem to have been impossibly cheap then. But when you adjust for inflation to get the equivalent in today's prices (according to the Bank of England's rates), the regular coat and shoes work out at about £115 each, and the Jaeger coat at £569! The salary is only about £13,000 in today's money, so the goods don't seem cheap in comparison. Interesting to me as my grandmother was also a teacher in the 50s and 60s. Thank you for sharing these memories!

I always had one pair of shoes in the 50s/60s, and when they got holes in the bottom, dad used to slide in cardboard to protect my feet and socks a bit, until he could afford to repair them (everyone had a set of tools to repair shoes at home) or replace them, that usually happened just before a new school year. Shoes usually lasted 3 or 4 years, and were always bought a bit big to allow for space to grow into. We went bare foot most of the time at home, and even in the yard at school, to protect our shoes. Further, to get more wear out of them, dad nailed metal strips onto front toe and back heal. I am in rural Australia, but the economics of my family were pretty similar to inner London, 'cept we could eat a bit of fruit a day. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I was stimulated by shoe talk. Such memories might remind folk that we baby boomers were not born with silver spoons in our mouths.

You need less effs and more Bleedin and maybe Bugger.

@theseeker4642

2 жыл бұрын

You're right, I remember real British swear words. Chas of Chas & Dave fame, was always saying our way of swearing had become Americanised & he was right. Ours would be, " What're you f×××××g doing ?" whereas now it's the American, " What the f××k are you doing, " etc etc & our old gesture of the two fingered salute has become the American flipping the bird. I also remember when like the Australians, us working classes told it as it was, with no dressing up & had the ability to laugh at ourselves. All this transatlantic woke s××te needs pushed back as we're losing not only our language, but our British identity !

Although I was in Worthing as a child (I would have been shielded), I felt the F word was not dropped in casual banter like yours here, but only when emphasising a point, or losing temper. Also, there was much more reliance on colloquialisms, such as your use of "I don't walk around carrying that sort of cash in my pocket", or "clip 'round the ears", "rest is history", etc. "Jumble sale" was spot on. I didn't hear "village" but "town" more. I used "Yeah" a lot, but was corrected by my parents, as it was a bit common. Same for "aint" & "arse". Otherwise, a good reproduction. Maybe a hat as it's outside. Hats died off around 1968.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

Posh ppl lived in villages or so we thought.

I'm a midwest American, born in 1997, and once I had a job re-mastering audio-recorded business meetings on cassette tapes from the 1970s. I had to listen to their mundane conversations all the way through all day every day. Although they were from the same exact region as I grew up in, their accents and quirks were pretty alien to me, especially the older people (like a strange back-country accent). They sounded like no one I've met in my life, and I realized that accents actually do change very quickly with the times, and people change with the accents, they don't keep their old accents, although they may keep slang and little quirks from the old ways of speaking, they typically evolve their way of speaking with everyone else.

Interesting project. Being an American I cannot comment on anything, though I do clearly remember the 70s, but we didn't have plastic clothes pins on the clothes line.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

'sod it'

A fascinating listen - I was born in 1962, so I was only a toddler at the time, but I’m pretty sure “bloody” would be a much more common swear than the shocking (at the time) “fxcking”. Also “all gone pear-shaped” and “poxy” meaning rubbish quality might not have been used then either. Of course, I’m no expert, but I wonder if a couple of 60s lads would have been so open about sharing their lack of confidence and shyness about relationship stuff, that’s a much more recent phenomenon - and the world is all the better for it. (Might they have used “a nipper” for a child?)

@oafyuf

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, more likely to use "bleedin'" and "bloody". The F-word was heavily taboo.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

@@oafyuf ' An' I said Bum to 'im'

@TheWizardOfTheFens

2 жыл бұрын

@@oafyuf have to disagree with you there. I was born into an East End docker family, raised by my paternal grand parents due to my own parents divorcing and my dad being “away” for lots of the time. Fuck, fucker, fucking and all variants were used constantly, but woe betide any of us kids who repeated it in adult earshot. After work EVERY day of the week except Sundays, my family would have a couple of bottles of light ale, on Fridays and Saturdays they’d all gather in the local with other families and the “f” word would be a constant. It wasn’t taboo like other expletives used today, but used as part of everyday expression. I am degree educated, have held down high level board positions, and I still intersperse my everyday speech with it. - to me it’s a natural speech pattern.

@oafyuf

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheWizardOfTheFens Fair enough! It was different in the Irish immigrant families I was brought up in and with. Maybe as kids it was hidden from us and the adults were using it? Like you, I also remember fearing for my life should a grown-up overhear one of us saying it!

@shelleyphilcox4743

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheWizardOfTheFens My family are from Bermondsey and Holborn areas, and no one ever swore in mixed company, even indoors...and woe betide any kids who swore...they'd get a thick ear!

Nice work. I can't speak for the dialect but I think they'd have used wooden clothes pegs on the washing line in the 60s rather than plastic. I certainly remember it that way from the 70s.

This is fascinating! Tom's character sounds like the older working class men in my family (born 30s-50s in the Epsom/Ewell area). Simon's sounds bit more middle class and quite like my dad (b1955) but with a few more dropped Hs, and actually my brother (1985, Surrey) sounds pretty similar too, so some aspects of the accent have persisted. It's very notable in my family that the working class accent of the older generation is being lost; younger men sound completely different, far more generically Londoners. On 'yeah', my great uncle, who is in his 80s now, says yeah a lot in a way that makes me think it's always been a part of his speech. His accent is similar to Tom's character.

@Kinarr.

2 жыл бұрын

I concur with all said, and yeah....H's were dropped all the time.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kinarr. and 'yup' or is that later?

@theseeker4642

2 жыл бұрын

Accents & dialects are dying everywhere sadly & everywhere is starting to look the same as well

@Kinarr.

2 жыл бұрын

@@rajekamar8473 "yep" was used in the '60s. Yup was never used. It is American.

@johnlomax2502

2 жыл бұрын

@@theseeker4642 unfortunately you are right. Especially with the young generation of London. They sound awfully American. If you want to hear more authentic accents now, head up to Wigan, Oldham and Saint Helens. .

I read through my transcribed notes of a taped conversation - for family tree purposes - of my uncle's memoirs. He was born in 1936 and live in the East Ham / Manor Park area of London, working in manual jobs. Here are some random phrases that either jumped out as not sounding current or were repeated: I was fascinated / amazed It was quite fascinating, really Quite nice / very nice All right As it were It just so happened You see That sort of thing So I heard Jolly old soul / jolly hard work Most upset That’s how I took it Along those lines I thought - that’ll do! I’m just talking straight My father wouldn’t hear of it Bugger this for a game of soldiers!

I would listen to the interviews of old rock stars, but not the university students who were faking being "working class". Maybe not the rock stars so much, but the lesser known members of the bands. They probably weren't faking anything. You two sound like the university type rock stars to me, especially Simon.

@theseeker4642

2 жыл бұрын

The Small Faces were definitely working class Londoner's, same as the Kinks, just from different parts

@watermelonlalala

2 жыл бұрын

@@theseeker4642 All the bands were from the South, supposedly, before the Beatles. Probably you could search for "born in (neighborhood) joined the band" or "musician" and you will find some celebrities with the right accents.

The conversation about who asks who out first is brilliant!

I grew up in Whitstable • since all the locals have been priced-out of the local housing market by invading Londonders, the local "Whitstable accent" has all-but died out (over perhaps, maybe, a single generation) • a very sad loss.

@graememorrison333

2 жыл бұрын

So true. My nan and Grandad from Bermondsey and Bromley ended up there. (Although fifty years ago, so it probably doesn't count!)

@TP-om8of

2 жыл бұрын

@@graememorrison333 So where did the Whitstable people go? Herne Bay?

@alisong9994

2 жыл бұрын

My grandad's family came from Whitstable, he was born in 1910 ish and lived all his married life in Surrey and Hampshire. His accent was interesting, he had a rural burr and used to say 'a twelve-month' instead of a year. Not cockney sounding at all.

@theseeker4642

2 жыл бұрын

Same is happening up here in Cumbria, the local young couples are stuck waiting for social housing or private lets, while there's houses standing empty for most of the year & social housing now prioritise immigrants. No bias there, it's just a fact.

People of that time, working children, would have to pay 'keep'. Keep was a form of rent and board and would drastically reduce spending power of the adult child.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

Also, it is likely the father would not take backchat from even an adult child. 'Not under my roof' attitude.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

So no pocket money as such. Once working that would end and keep would kick in.

I showed this to an older colleague and they pointed out pretty much what the comments have already said (to an uncanny degree), but also something they felt was quite important: It would have been a bit strange for two men to just be hanging about having a chat at home for no particular reason and they probably would have been working on something or fixing something with a bit of chat and banter. He said most likely a motorbike, car, or something like that.

Great that you are doing this! Love your videos. I was born in south London in 1963, in a 'working class' family, so grew up with that accent around me. My Uncle who left the country in the 70s, has retained the accent. In terms of vocabulary, the word 'git' I do remember, which was quite a strong insult, but in common usage. The F-word though, even in the 70s was considered very strong, was rarely heard, and adults around me were visibly shocked if it was uttered. You are right that people didn't say 'yeah' or even OK that much, as it was considered American (and I remember school teachers insisting on 'yes' not 'yeah' so I guess it was starting to come in in the 70s). In terms of accent, there's something not quite ringing true I think with some of your vowels, eg. when you say 'I see', but I'll have to listen to it a few times to see if I can put my finger on it. In terms of smoking, my parents smoked normal cigarettes (not roll-ups) and there was a particular posture associated with holding a cigarette, and a particular way of inhaling with a particular facial expression that I remember clearly that you don't see these days. Hope this helps. Thank you for your videos - always enjoy them.

@helenamcginty4920

2 жыл бұрын

Im now 73 but from the north. My dad smoked roll ups or players plain. I recall them cos there was the punchline to a shaggy dog tale about camels in the desert or something. It was a slogan printed on the inside of the top of the pack... its the tobacco that counts.

@paulreeves8251

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah was definitely starting to be common by 1965. As a 7 seven year old at that time I remember that 'She loves you' had already corrupted an entire generation and all the grown ups were scandalised. But some how 'She loves you, yes, yes, yes' doesn't really work.

@Richard-zm6pt

2 жыл бұрын

I remember about smoking in England in the sixties. So many people had nicotine-stained fingers. My dad, who quit smoking in England in 1965 (because of so many anti-smoking public service announcements), said it was the way people held their cigarettes. They held them palm up so the smoke rose up through the fingers, leaving the stains. Americans held their cigarettes palm down. I do remember people rolling their own cigarettes, which I had not noticed in the US. I was young, though, so many things went over my head then.

@MaddieLRB

2 жыл бұрын

I can tell Simons not pushing the accent too much so I’m not sure it’s clear whether they are both supposed to sound working class. If it is meant to sound working class I would make a point of not saying the h on how and also the pronunciation of the ow sound would be more like aaazzzz ya wife or aerzzz. I feel as though most of these words are still commonly used in London today? At least amongst the working class. I live in Bristol now and would be interested to see a video about the terminal L.

@MaddieLRB

2 жыл бұрын

Ok ignore that - having watched more it is definitely supposed to sound working class! I think the accent just slips in a few places and then picks back up at the end!

Admittedly I was only eight at the time, living in Essex, but swearing wasn't as prevalent then as it is now, even amongst 'working class' people; you were much more likely to hear 'ruddy', not used at all now, or at worse, 'bloody'.

@ajs41

2 жыл бұрын

I hear ruddy occasionally.

"I said to dad". And then "I said to me dad" That's spot on. Really nice work! I was born in Billericay Hospital, 1961, and grew up in Basildon. Pure cockney territory at that time... Trust me, if you were crap at this then I would know...

You could get a pair of men's leather shoes in Harrods for around £5 in the early 1960s so you might want to revise the prices down a little. Also "posh" clothes & shoes tended to be priced in guineas and cheaper or bargain ones in shillings. If things were on sale there could even be a mixture of units, ie a pair of shoes that were originally 5 gns. might be reduced to 95/-.

@williamcooke5627

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, and any price under £5 was commnly given in shillings.

@faithlesshound5621

2 жыл бұрын

I was a schoolboy in the 1960s, and so rarely laid hands on a pound note, but I remember shoes being priced in guineas (and half guineas) in shop windows. Back then you could buy a locket containing a ten shilling note folded into a tiny square revealing only the "10" to keep as an emergency reserve (e.g. for the train fare home).

@williamcooke5627

2 жыл бұрын

@@faithlesshound5621 I remember in 1968 making calls from telephone boxes for 2d (*not* 2p) and still paying only a penny to use a public loo. And for 4d I could ride a few stops on the London Tube.

@gillchatfield3231

2 жыл бұрын

@@williamcooke5627 Phone calls were 4d (local) from at least the mid 50s. A 4d tube fare was usually 2, possibly 3, stops. Then 4d, 8d, 1/-, 1/3, 1/6 etc. Bus fares the same.

I live in Kent and you both sound spot on for guys who work on building sites.

At 2:50 I would have said `four pound, seven and three. There were many `slang` words for money: sixpence was a tanner, a shilling was a Bob. The two shilling coin was a Florin but was never called that; the half crown coin was worth two shillings and sixpence (two and six) but was often called half a dollar. There were words for vague amounts ` a couple of quid` meant anything in the general region of two or three pounds. `six and odd` meant six shillings and a few pence. At 4:15 Was `on your bike` in use at the time? I had thought that it came from Norman Tebbit's speech in October 1981 but may be wrong. Wages were rising fairly rapidly in the first half of the 1960s. As a skilled electrician I was on around £12 a week at the beginning of the decade in the north west of England but by 1965 in heavy engineering in the Midlands I was on slightly over £20 a week. From this I feel that the price of shoes was much too high. Another point is that shoes were still leather and needed frequent repairs. Smoking. Almost all men smoked. Woodbines and Park Drive were the cheapest, Woodbines were known as `coffin nails` because each one you smoked was another nail in your coffin. Higher up the social scale and you may be a Players Navy Cut man, or possibly Capstan Full Strength. Older men smoked pipes. Don't forget that although there were lighters, many people used a box of matches - a box of 50 for a penny. The way you held the cigarette seemed to have some significance; the usual way was between the first and second fingers with the hot end facing out, but others kept the glow concealed in the palm of their hand. It was said that this was a prison habit but I suspect that it was a military thing from having a crafty smoke while on guard. Others, like my father, had it stuck to the bottom lip as they talked. He used his frequent cough to blow the ash off the end of it.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

Joey for 3d.

My personal take (born 52, grew up in SE London latterly near Kent border). You've done a great job: hope we can help you make it even better. Tom is bang on; Simon is a bit too posh at times (sorry!), though "wossername" was brilliant - spot on. For days of the week, "Tues-DAY" should be more like "TUES - dee". I think Simon would have asked his Dad for eleven quid (though he'd have stuck to six pahnds a week), and Tom would certainly have said "five bob" later on (not five shillings). I'd have expected a 1965 Victoria to be Vicky unless she was incredibly posh. Agree with @Expat Expat about some too-long words (e.g. specification), and @Andrea Newman about the F-word: it was very rare indeed - bloody or bleedin (closer to "bleatin") might be better. Big anachronism is "Euros", a much later phrase (1980s, I'd guess). England didn't even enter the 1964 European Nations Cup: no-one would have given a toss (phrase to use?) about the finals (which only had four teams) and I doubt if they were even shown on TV. Maybe say the Olympics instead? As for "yeah", the Beatles were the single biggest cultural influence, so if your two lads had moved with the times and not stuck with the rock and roll (Elvis etc.) they heard when they were teenagers (many people did - I can remember the stuff in record paper correspondence columns from the mid-1960s), they'd say "yeah". If not they wouldn't. Lastly, TV - Fine to talk about Mum having the first set (for the Coronation, no doubt), but most people rented TVs (D E R , Robinson Rentals etc.) in the 1960s, because technology changed so often - and in 1965 BBC2 had just come out and you needed a new set to get it: 23 inch would have been a big screen then. Can't help on work shoes or smoking, but again @Andrea Newman is right there. Of course, this is just how I saw it! Sorry, gone on too long...

@matthood9281

2 жыл бұрын

Can confirm the "Tues-dee" vs "Tues-day" comment. I (42) grew up in Kent and many of my mum's side of the family, especially the older ones, would say "...day" as "...dee" on every weekday name. It only sticks in my mind as I spent a lot of time with my maternal grandparents as a kid while my parents were at work and I picked up "...dee" from them, much to my parents chagrin. I still say it today.

Oh yeah, one other thing, a pair of shoes wouldn't have cost £15, an expensive pair may have been £5, a cheaper pair two or three quid.

I enjoyed this so much. It reminded me of “Creature Comforts”

@giddygrub7176

2 жыл бұрын

😁

getting some serious "Derek and Clive" energy here

I was born in 1951 so in the mid-sixties I was ready to start work. My first job in 1966 paid me £6 10s week but I had to pay 'keep' to my mum that was one third of my wages. I had to put by 2 quid for getting through the week ( bus fares lunch etc) which left me just over £2 to spend. Beer was two bob a pint so thats where the money went most weekends.

this is such a wonderful project, thank you for making this

My London grandmother (born in Sussex) usedtooften say ‘wickid’ for anything bad, including the weather. ‘The weather’s wicked today!’ My London born dad would often say ‘strewth!’ And ‘blimey!’

As an older Swedish person I can hear things from old movies, black and white and all! Loving the glottal stops!

@watermelonlalala

2 жыл бұрын

I don't know about in England, but in the US the actors were almost always faking accents and they didn't even try to be accurate. I always thought that it was after Dolly Parton got famous that show biz first started trying to get an accurate accent for Southerners.

As a Gen X American and therefore unfamiliar with this milieu and era, the one thing that struck me immediately was that the actors appeared to be middle class college students/graduates doing their best to approximate working class mannerisms. I obviously can't speak to the accuracy of their diction and grammar.

@ruadhagainagaidheal9398

2 жыл бұрын

Well observed Sir.

@recycleyourcar

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly this. I'm also unable to comment on accuracy (Australian, b'81) - but on the very off chance that comments are still being read 2 months out, my advice to Simon would be to maybe try to create characters based on your own class/experience but placed in the 60s. I think it would come across a lot better/more authentic

I'm not from the south but I remember the sixties. However, I think that Four seven and six, (if that was the amount) would have been Four pound seven and six. Later on, 15 shillings might have been 15 bob. I'm looking forward to the finished article!

@williamcooke5627

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely 'four pound, seven and six'. What Simon said pulled me up, and I didn't immediately understand it.

I'm so glad this project is happening. I remember growing up in mill-town Lancashire in the 90's hearing people talk dialect, and having it drilled out of us in school. It then died off in the 2000's when the mills finally died. Still makes me sad.

Simon, I was born in Dartford, and my parents moved to Tunbridge Wells when I was five. I went to St.James school for a short while, before starting prep school at Holmewood House. I then attended the Tonbridge School until 1969 from where I went to University - but not until 1971. Speaking ‘properly’, was considered very important during my formative years. My pronunciation and dialect is very similar to the way you speak, but with one major difference - you use a glottal replacement for practically all words which I associate with having a clearly carefully pronounced consonant eg matter pronounced ma’’’er. In this clip, I immediately thought of Peter Cook being’E.L.Whisty. For some time your spoken voice would have been called ‘Esturian’ or ‘posh cockney’. I must say that I find all your videos very interesting, having always been interested in accents and dialects which when I was young, we’re still very localised and could differ markedly over a distance as little as 20-30 miles. I have also taken a keen interest in philology and the reasons behind which make English a fascinating language regards, Richard Dyason.

A really fascinating project and well worth your effort! I am looking forward to the final cut. Might I suggest that you also do the other side of the coin? Make a prediction about language, society, interpersonal relationships in the future, 20 years, 40 years, whatever, and then down the road we can see how your predictions have held up. It could be your own 1984.

“Skills” has a modern feel.

@aerobolt256

2 жыл бұрын

it's only been in the language for about a thousand years imported from the Old Norse speaking Vikings.

@kbarbee3212

2 жыл бұрын

@@aerobolt256 not the word the context. That’s why I wrote feels, and not sounds. A for etymology F for comprehension.

I really enjoy your videos. I don't know anything about this specific topic, but for some reason when you asked how Rosalynn was getting on I immediately thought of the Monty Python skit "nudge, nudge...wink, wink". I expected you to ask "Is she a goer?" (Ok, adding an edit here. I've just spent time looking at videos from 1965 and 1967 real life London folks and the young men seemed to (mostly) wear button down shirts, many with the sleeves rolled up. Look at the channel by guy jones called "1967 - London Street Scenes (added sound w/ color remaster)" for clothing and hairstyles, as well as the channel British Pathe, a video called "London - Teenagers Wear These (1965)" for more hair. In both videos you can briefly see men holding cigarettes, too. End of edit!) I think you both did a great job. Applause, and hugs.

I wish my late father in law was still around to assist as he was south east most his life post WWII! I'm from the north of England and the accents and dialects of my own father's generation is virtually gone in my home town, obviously down to the usual reasons as to how language evolves but definitely sped up by less and less people staying in my home town post 18 (like me, very few of my peers stayed because of lack of work and/or going away to study), a high upturn in second holiday homes in the area pricing out locals etc. Your channel is fascinating, keep it up! EDIT; so I came across this old mini documentary reel. I was so struck by it because I haven't heard someone speak like the narrator in a VERY long time. Whilst not overtly Northern on it's surface (I always used to think of it as "restrained Yorkshire"!) Certainly something heard in the older teachers I had or senior council/officials etc. in North Yorkshire/Dales. My 90 year old Uncle has light touches of this but it's not something you hear now really, certainly not in anyone under 70 (at a push). kzread.info/dash/bejne/X2RtsMqfkauqedo.html

Reminds me of Derek and Clive talking about the worst jobs they ever had.

@UKTonyMagill

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. I was 9 in 1965, in SE England. I don't know what these guys are trying to achieve as the general London accent hasn't really changed, apart from some people using upward intonation. Slang has changed, and actual cockney and some middle class accents have changed a little, but not the general estuary mush these guys are talking in. PS I love Pete and Dud!

@BrownianMotionPicture

2 жыл бұрын

I concur. I was expecting to hear the c word at any point.

I still hear 'I done it' rather than 'I did it' from older people in my area. Other gems are 'can you learn me' and 'can you borrow me a fiver'.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

Another lost one is 'An I towd 'im to boil 'is 'ead'

@fuckdefed

2 жыл бұрын

@@rajekamar8473 Interesting, I’ve only heard Scotsmen say this (“awa’n bile yer heid”). You can still hear ‘borrow, done and learn’ misused in Birmingham not just the South East (and not just by the old either!)

@davidbouvier8895

2 жыл бұрын

That would be 'borrer'.

Born in 1955, I'd have been 10 in the mid-sixties. From ages 8 to 12 I was in Leicestershire but nevertheless found this cameo strangely moving. Thank you for the effort you put into your videos Simon. All the best, Rob in Switzerland.

This is too much like London speak to be generically south Eastern. I grew up in west Kent in the 60s and the Kentish accent was still common. Step into Sussex and the accent was even stronger. In both counties you'd hear 'I ent' rather than London style 'I ain't ' .

@philomelodia

2 жыл бұрын

You should make recordings of yourself imitating these accents and send it to them. You sound like you’ve got some awareness of how it out to properly sound. Makes what you got to say pretty valuable.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with 'ent'.

@beaucaspar3990

2 жыл бұрын

Did you grow up near the town of Tumbridge Wells? I live in East Kent, a town called Faversham (near Canterbury)

@maknorman7250

2 жыл бұрын

@@beaucaspar3990 I grew up in Edenbridge and Tunbridge Wells in later years.

@Tob1Kadach1

2 жыл бұрын

I was born in the 90's and the South Eastern accent today, especially here in Kent sounds more London inspired. A mix of cockney, RP and Black speech.

I might be wrong, but I think that within certain classes certain words become taboo, words that could be contrived as being a pretence at poshness would be omitted. "derteriorate the quality" might be "ruin them" or "wreck them". Or it might be emphasised to commedy effect. Not derek and clive, but I think more intentionally charicatured than you'd guess, because certain phrases would ally you with classes to benefit or cost. Certainly anywhere I've been, people have intentionally grounded themselves both to their locality and class (or intended class). Simply using some words or saying "bath" lilke "ah" still raises eyebrows in some communities. I also think that attempts at humour both successfull and failiure would be there regardless of class. Plus people interrupt each other.

@livinglifeform7974

2 жыл бұрын

Do you mean like baf or like barth? Ah could be said either way

@jamesfforthemasses

2 жыл бұрын

@@livinglifeform7974 yes true, but either way we all know both, but generally do lean to one almost religiously, and identify a heap of meaning to it's use, sometimes even using the other to mock. "bath" is just an eg, and not the best. I'm really just hinting that people really purposefully adapt their vocabulary as a tool of identity communication, and that's based on locality, class, race, everything, or indeed dismissal of the above. But it needs to be a little contrived in order to be natural. Getting that balance isn't a task that I'd want, I admit.

@williamcooke5627

2 жыл бұрын

Tbh, some of Simon's phrases do sound odd to me as a Canadian with 'deep roots' in the Old Country. I'd never speak of 'maintaining' my shoes (maybe 'keeping them up'); and 'deteriorate the quality' sounds like something only a foreigner would say.

@treforknight1366

2 жыл бұрын

You’re right.. I made the point in a comment.. I was very aware of this as I had a slightly better vocabulary than I’d ever dare use amongst my school mates.. so I consciously replaced things like ‘let them deteriorate’ with let them go to shit or fk ‘em up .. I still do it now when I’m talking to the few old school mates I keep in touch with!

I was only four in 1965, but some things still struck me as modern. £4 7/3 would be four pound seven and thrupence. £11 eleven quid make of shoes rather than brand [ðɛɐ] rather than [ðɛː] Five bob rather than five shillings I don't think people 'saw' people - they went out with them. 'Courting' on the other hand is more my grandparents' generation. The 1964 European cup was only the second time it was held, so I doubt if people called it "The Euros" yet. Would people in England have even been that bothered about a final between Spain and USSR in an event in which England hadn't qualified? I think the bit about the girlfriends goes on a bit. Sadly, I don't think people would have been so in touch with their feelings then. the names are rather posh too. Wouldn't Victoria be Vicky? I see others have suggested talking about TV programmes. Music would have been big, too, as people anticipated record releases. Even in the early eighties, going to recond shops with your mates to get new singles and albums as they came out was a big thing. In the 60s, people who were really into music would order re3cords from 'the states' through magazines. These two might not be able to afford that, but might go round their mate's to listen to his latest import.

@pedazodetorpedo

Жыл бұрын

"brand" immediately stuck out to me and I was born in 1988. Everything used to be a "make" at least until 20 years ago.

From the mid to late 60s, hippiedom was establishing itself from San Francisco to London to Amsterdam to Sydney and more or less all places in between. Consequently, there were a lot of hippy, drug culture references (across all social classes, what is more - very rare for the UK) from those cats who considered themselves, or would have liked to become, cool, hip, groovy or just generally part of the happening scene. It wasn't a question of imitating Americans as such, but it incorporated a lot of their sub-cultural vocabulary and even their pronunciation in some expressions, ya dig? It was all just so far out, man! (Keith Richards, who in some ways is a living cultural, linguistic, geographical and sociological phenomenon all on his own) still shows many of these traces. His accent starts in Deptford and gathers numerous accretions along the way, but at its core it's still 1950s Southeast London.) I enjoyed this conversation, but there were places where I think the two young men were sounding more like their fathers of that time. "Da yoof" was not an expression of the time and is closer to the London speak of today, but the generational gap was certainly widening during the 60s. Many horrified commenters of the time put it all down to rock'n'roll. They were probably right to do so.

@theseeker4642

2 жыл бұрын

The happening London scene didn't happen where I was brought up, we used to read about it, see it on TV but as for living it, no it was business as usual. I once went down to my Dorset granny's for a holiday & she treated me to a coat or jacket of my choice. I chose a lovely mustard coloured, flower print & loved that jacket. On getting home, I was asked by everybody if I'd forgotten to take my pyjama top off ! I still wore it regardless & was lucky to have parents who weren't stuffy or just plain ignorant, but a hell of alot did !

@philroberts7238

2 жыл бұрын

@@theseeker4642 Thank you for that story. To be honest, I should have thought Dorset at that time would also have been a bit too far out to have been that far out, if you see what I mean. Glad to see that you stuck to your sartorial guns, you rebel, you! (I nearly wrote "I would have", Simon, but some generational traits stick around longer than others.)

Love these type of videos

Sounds like many of my friends still speak! I'm on my 30s but know people in their 40s & 50s socially.

There's a bit too much casual swearing imo. I remember the F word was shocking in the 60s and I wouldn't expect it to be used as casually as it was at 2:45

You'll find decent renditions of young londoners too in Scum (1979)

Grew up in Notting Hill in the 60s with 4 older brothers and you sounded a little too educated Simon...too many big words. Shoes 15 quid a pair would have been unheard of and you would have been asked to get a style of shoe not a specification of one. Never heard the f word in those days, blimey, berk, basket, bugger, cowson, silly old cow, and most of all git and bleedin' not bloody were used all the time but not by kids in older company, only adults. Initiate, specification, and some of the other words you used Simon were too sophisticated. Conversations were short and to the point, not at all flowery. My brothers and sister all smoked in the 60s, Kensitas, Embassy, Guards and No 6....never knew anyone who rolled their own then. And money was tight for us then. I seem to remember conversations about who was inside for what a lot before being ushered out of the room. Children were not allowed to listen to adult conversation. One of my brothers, if he did not like where he was working, would walk out at 10am and be in another job by teatime. No discussions with anyone about it only after about what he had done. We said yeh when asked a question and was always told it is yes not yeh. We were always corrected when calling someone she too. Was told who's she, the cat's mother? I remember lots of chat about sport and music and records, hair being too long and skirts being too short for my Dad's liking and my brothers and my sister's eyes all rolling but no back chat, ever. Happy days! Great video Simon.

@theseeker4642

2 жыл бұрын

Men didn't swear in front of women in those days wherever you came from, if a man forgot himself he was soon told to watch his language as there were ladies present.

@allisondinham3199

2 жыл бұрын

@@theseeker4642 Shame it's changed.

@npickard4218

2 жыл бұрын

Lynne, I'm a 57 yr old American and so many of the situations you describe were true for me growing up in Michigan. I would get slapped if I referred to my mother as 'she.' We were working class and I also remember conversations being very choppy ... not following through with thoughts and so forth. One thing Americans never say is bloody or bleedin' is there a difference? Is one more vulgar than the other?

@lynnelovesroses4485

2 жыл бұрын

@@npickard4218 Bleedin was just seen to be more working class.. the well to do said bloody, they thought bleedin was far too common lol.

@EvilGremlin100

2 жыл бұрын

My parents were from that era, and some things they clearly picked up from their parents and tried to instill in me such as "She is the cats mother". Which I never understood. What was the issue with addressing a woman in that context as "She" in that era? I could never get my head around it. It seemed like a perfectly logically acceptable way to refer to a female. And on top of that, where did the phrase "She is the cats mother" come from? None of it made any sense and anyone who has knowledge of whatever it's referencing and the logic behind the issue would be helpful

I am 56 and I worked in The City in 1983. ( I am from Fife and live jn Fife still) This conversation seems normal to me and I wasn't aware the language had changed much. The expressions I take it are not so common now. I am more intrigued how the two of you sat down and created this quirky conversation. 🤪

The experiments you lads do are always fascinating. Bet you'd be a fun lot to have a pint with.

You might not have an old television. I seem to remember they broke down every five years or so. You'd do without for a week. Then A man would come and fix it - or advise you to buy (or rent) a new one. You could buy on the " never -never ". Which meant : in monthly installmemts.

@rajekamar8473

2 жыл бұрын

My mum/dad had one for picture and one for sound.

I grew up just north of London (Stevenage) in the sixties, born 1952, from solidly working class stock. Most friends and neighbours came from N.E. London, as did we. Many were recovering cockneys. It's difficult to generalise, but I'd say that we would always say 'Mondy' / 'Tuesdy', rather than 'Monday' / 'Tuesday' (unless we were takin' the mick, of course). Drop the 't' from 'Katie' (unless she's a class bird).

I was certain as sunrise that the job interview was just a clever way to sell upmarket shoes!

Interesting work lads. I’ll give you my “fourp’ny worth”. £11 - £15 is hugely expensive for working men’s shoes back then. 15 bob more like …. maybe a guinea, unless you were inexplicably shopping ‘up town’. and spending an outrageous amount like a fiver. Jumble sale prices more like tuppence to a tanner. Back then too, we all talked about what had been on the telly last night as everyone watched the same thing. Definitely worth you watching a few old programmes to get the cadence. Derek and Clive were not representative, but catch the first ‘Seven Up’ or some ‘Wednesday Play’s, definitely ‘The Likely Lads’ especially Rodney Bewes characters who aspired to Southern manners. ‘Till Death Us do Part’ is a must-see, as is ‘Cathy Come Home’ and films like ‘Georgy Girl’, ‘Up the Junction’ and ‘A Place to Go’. I would drown yourselves in films from that era as they have much more verisimilitude than Pete and Dud.

@Ed-kv2vb

2 жыл бұрын

Good stuff - but "four penn'orth", surely!

My father was at college in London until 1961 and worked in the general area for a few years afterwards. I'll show him this video.

People mainly rented tellys in the 60s, so to own one was quite posh. Some of the words you use sound a bit posh too, such as 'initiate' instead of 'start'. Were the Euros in the 60s? People didn't say 'so...' at the beginning of a tale, try 'well...' instead. Shoe prices were less than you think. Five quid for smart new shoes. Jumble sale ones, a few pence - maybe "two bob" if they were "in good nick". Your Dad would likely have been your "ole man". Not sure that "in your dreams" and "on your bike" were things then. "On your bike" might have been, but needs checking. Oh - pegs were wooden, often 'dolly pegs'.

The Good Life on the BBC... Don't know when it first started but the accents are pretty spot on considering your from op norf

Euros were new in the 60s and called the European Championships if referred to at all. The FA Cup final would been much more significant as this was the only football match televised live in a non-World Cup year. Army type clothes are authentic as army surplus was sold off after the end of national service. You could refer to having to buy new shoes because you couldn't wear your army boots.

I found this video of old people talking about the old days, speaking in a pub in 1972: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ooxmxKlqlLy6p5s.html. You'll notice that none of "the old birds" have their own teeth - something that was extremely common then - this, coupled with a lifetime of drinking and smoking, had a significant effect on how people spoke. It's something I'd forgotten until fairly recently. It's one of those set of characteristics that a lot of older people had when I was child and teenager (from mid 1970s to early 90s), which is very uncommon now.. In the video, if you listen carefully, you'll noticed the older women sometimes use trilled or tapped Rs - something you discussed in an earlier video. Interestingly, this interview with a 108 year old in 1977, shows the trill/tap really quite strongly: kzread.info/dash/bejne/l2h6vM2RpqS_aZc.html.

@honyakupjp

2 жыл бұрын

The comedian Kenneth Williams, who was born and bred in central London, used to emphasise that rolled R very strongly.

@leighfrancis7048

2 жыл бұрын

It was common for teeth to be removed before the NHS was created because dentists were fearsomely expensive. Working class women especially, had their teeth removed before marriage.

@thefishgod

2 жыл бұрын

@@leighfrancis7048 My mum had all her teeth removed in the 1950s, when she would have been in her mid twenties, before her marriage. Again, working class. Seems absolutely baffling to me now, and she had endless problems with worn gums in her 80s.

Not sure if this is helpful just some input about t.v.. I haven't researched this I am only saying what I remember. I was born in 1965 in London. The time I am talking about is when I was very young so still late 60s, early 70s. I remember our television was rented and paid for on a weekly basis. I also remember t.v. programs were black and white, so we must have rented a black and white television. to begin with. We were a large family of seven children and all the family would watch t.v. together. With a family of 9 people, there were always at least 4 children sitting on the floor. If any one of the children got up to leave the room for any reason someone would jump into a seat. I don't remember anyone complaining about this. My brother and I would sometimes lie under the couch watching t.v. past our bedtime when a particularly good program that we liked was on. As long as we were quiet and out of sight we got away with it. My mum always liked the Two Ronnies and Stanley Baxter specials.

This is great! My parents grew up in South London and were teenagers in 1965. My Dad and uncles always use the word 'clump' to describe a heavy clip round the ear, but I don't know if that was in common parlance back then or just in my family?

Born in 1955, lived in Battersea South London. Always remember my dad saying 5 and twenty past or 5 and twenty to but only when telling the time.

@graememorrison333

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! My Bermondsey born (1913) Nan would also relay the time that way.

@TP-om8of

2 жыл бұрын

And my mother in law (Sydenham).

@JasonAllenUK

2 жыл бұрын

Same here in the west country. My grandparents would say the same thing. "It's five and twenty to six."

@davidbouvier8895

2 жыл бұрын

And me dad: five 'n' twenny pars

@TP-om8of

2 жыл бұрын

Zwei und zwanzig

This is really interesting, I assume I am around the same age as you guys, and realised this is almost a kind of conversation style I adopt when I'm chatting with old cockney lads at the pub in Hackney where I live. Not intentionally - just in the same way anyone might converse differently with their Grandma to they way they chat with their mates.

This is quite compelling to listen to. A few suggestions (purely my opinion, based on my father and his family, who were evacuated from Catford and Lewisham during WW2): Rather than 'he seemed perfectly nice' - 'he seemed alright.' 'Obviously' is a very recent colloquialism. Possibly Mundy and Wensdy instead of Monday and Wednesday, depending on regional variations. Style and make rather than specification and brand. Right, rather than quite right. One of them was, rather than one of them cost... 'I ummed an' arred over 'em.' 'He gives me this look, like', instead of as if to say. I ain't got £11 on me, rather than I don't carry... He nearly clouted me, rather than he almost hit me. Six pahnd a week, which ain't bad at all. I'll go wivaht pocket money. 'You ain't got no skills' is probably a more modern colloquialism. 'Not sure what the 1960s alternative would be. Five bob, not shillings. Knacker 'em, or ruin 'em, rather than deteriorate the quality. Look after 'em, rather than maintain 'em. Was it 'er bruvver, through him? rather than Was it 'er bruvver, at first? Got talkin', rather than struck up a bit of a conversation. When we was nippers or kids, rather than when we were less than 15. I could tell straight away, rather than immediately. Abaht two years, rather than two years or so. Instead of 'I'd stopped caring', - 'I weren't that bovvered no more.' Of course, this depends on socio-economic status, or class. Instead of 'I'd been approaching her, looking at her and so forth,' - 'I'd been hangin' round her an' all that.' in the end, rather than eventually. I weren't expectin' that, rather than wasn't. 'Talk to you' rather than 'Initiate some kind of conversation.' 'What a most dreadful piece of advice,' is so middle class. Try 'what a terrible bit of advice.' I hope the above helps!

@Ed-kv2vb

2 жыл бұрын

Excellent list, Nick! I'd also tell Simon to cut out the "like"s - which is a 21st-century plague.

@nickphipp1949

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ed-kv2vb This documentary was filmed in 1969 in Sussex. Great for natural language and syntax if not the accents. kzread.info/dash/bejne/lWSY2JRufJXYfNY.html

Few ob's. Where i was from there was no prounouncing 'th' e.g. thing would be 'fing' & three would 'free'. In some cases ing wasn't prounounced e.g. getting would be 'ge(tt)in' (w/ the t's in the middle pretty much silent), together would be 't'gevva'. H's were silent in the most part e.g half would be 'arf'. Hope that makes sense 👍

If Essex counts, at least along the Thames, you've got it pretty well sussed. You did start to sound a bit "Derek and Clive" at the start which made me smile. You may want to check out some Alf Garnet skits, although you're going to get full on Cockney then. I've subscribed so I can keep in touch with your updates. Cheers!

This is fantastic. This almost had a Derek and Clive feel to it. Bar the obscenities.

Some great observations here. My initial contributions: Bloody, bleedin, soddin all more common than the f word. ‘He gave me’… would more likely be ‘he give me’. Gaffer, not foreman.