This is a fun idea. I’d be happy to see more videos entertaining alternate histories of English

@Ptaku93

3 жыл бұрын

me too!

@user-ou1ff6fg6c

3 жыл бұрын

Tonal English

@johndamalulikali

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely!

@yerdasellsavon9232

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-ou1ff6fg6c no please no the language is bad enough

@user-ou1ff6fg6c

3 жыл бұрын

@@yerdasellsavon9232 I think it's a good mix of utilitarian and romantic.

As a native speaker of a language with grammatical gender, seven cases, paucal and many other oddities, but no articles (Croatian), I found this most fascinating.

@tymekmarciniak3093

3 жыл бұрын

Same as for polish person. It seems for me like the slavic's part of languages but simplified a lot :D (we conjugate every naun like that becouse we don't have articles and we have 7 cases not 4). With that english speaker can maybe understand what is the hard part of any slavic language to learn.

@DomenBremecXCVI

3 жыл бұрын

@@tymekmarciniak3093 Slovene here, we have one less case than you but with the added bonus of dual grammatical number to really make it hard for new learners (I see no other reason for it).

@brexitgreens

3 жыл бұрын

Hello, Indo-European fossils 😄. It's always awesome to meet someone who does not be in the one true timeline (not hese one offenly).

@bazoo513

3 жыл бұрын

@@brexitgreens If grammatical gender was good enough for Julius Caesar, it is good enough for us :o) It is rare that a language receives so many "layers" from various invaders and conquerors, while retaining some of the original substrate, and still be called the same language, as English. No worries, English has enough quirks as it is...

@marcossidoruk8033

3 жыл бұрын

@@brexitgreens Wtf is your about page.

In the NE of Scotland they still say thon cat.

@Motofanable

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, doric language

@weirdlanguageguy

3 жыл бұрын

@Sophie McCook how are those related exactly? I don't know of any development in English changing y to th or vice versa, except when confusing the þorn glyph with y.

@noamto

3 жыл бұрын

@@weirdlanguageguy it could in theory be related to spelling influencing pronunciation actually. But "thon" is actually related to yon (since it comes from the+yon)

@weirdlanguageguy

3 жыл бұрын

@@noamto oh, interesting

@tairneanaich

3 жыл бұрын

Scots is still a Germanic language for the most part (with some Goidelic influences)- first time I read Beowulf a lot of it actually made sense lmao

It's amazing how similar they are to the declensions of der, die, das in German. I'd love to see one more about grammatical case specifically, maybe even leaving the Instrumental in place since it's just hypothesis.

@bigscarysteve

3 жыл бұрын

I took a whole year of Old English when I was in grad school, and today is the first time I ever heard that there was an instrumental in Old English.

@bigaspidistra

3 жыл бұрын

It was only distinguishable from the dative for masculine and neuter singular.of strong adjectives and demonstratives

@LEO_M1

3 жыл бұрын

@@bigscarysteve By the time consistent, written, records of Old English were being made, it was already falling out of use.

@Tony-fb1ij

3 жыл бұрын

Not really amazing at all, since Old English comes from Anglo-Frisian (Ingvaeonic) dialects of West Germanic. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Germanic

@brittakriep2938

3 жыл бұрын

Der Werwolf, den Wenwolf, dem Wemwolf, des Wesswolfes: old german joke.

Brilliant! Perhaps unexpectedly to the layman, some of your hypothetical derivations were actually present in official Dutch until 1951 and still are in German.

@jasmadams

3 жыл бұрын

I picked up German as a child partly from hearing my grandparents, whose parents immigrated at the end of the 19th century. So, I often have used the old dative plural -e ending, and I have gotten some strange looks.

@zoria2718

3 жыл бұрын

Well, German retains the same genitive case ending (for masculine and neuter "strong" nouns) that became the possessive form in English and... I can't remember any other similarities with German. The "weak" declension's ending -en in indirect cases has nothing to do with the theoretical English -en, the article forms are different as well (der, das, die, des, dem, den), there's also the ending -e in dative, but it's dated.

@jasmadams

3 жыл бұрын

@@zoria2718 I saw it most strongly in those final sentence examples: thome thone thore thier < der (wbl dativ)

@user-mb4ux7xv4j

3 жыл бұрын

@@jasmadams Do use the genitive case when speaking German please, we need to preserve it

@jasmadams

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-mb4ux7xv4j I haven’t lived in Germany for about 20 years. Are ppl in Europe not using it? What do they do instead, say “von ___,” like they’re French?!

I'd wish you good luck on your dissertation, Simon, but something tells me that you don't need luck. I have every reason to think that congratulations are in order!

I once did the same thing for Spanish, working out what the noun declension would look like if the Latin case had survived, but after applying the actual sound changes. Spoiler: you could really see why the case system was lost, the resulting paradigms were a mess

@riversnake6548

3 жыл бұрын

Do you have any examples?

@Correctrix

3 жыл бұрын

@@riversnake6548 Le palabre en lis frasios estíos lengüe castellane teórique serían extrañe y nosotri encontraríamos lo españolo muy dificiliore habladu, gramática algo similare li alemano.

@riversnake6548

3 жыл бұрын

@@Correctrix wow, estoy contento que dejamos caer terminaciones de casos 🤣

@Correctrix

3 жыл бұрын

@@riversnake6548 Podíamos mantener la tría génera también -masculino, femenino y neutro- y decir «unos homo, do hombres; una mujer, due mujeres; uno animal, do animaja». Se freiría uno huevo o do hueva. Se visitaría uno museo o do musea.

@ockeghem78

3 жыл бұрын

@@Correctrix oddly enough italian retained what sounds like a masculine / feminine alternance in eggs (uovo masc. sing - uova fem. plur) although it was really a neuter noun II declension in latin.

I’d really like to see a video discussing a possible evolution of Old English had the Normans not defeated Harold at Hastings, thereby removing the French elements introduced by the Normans and their French kin. Not only grammatically, but vocabulary and sounds wise too. It would be a fun idea to delve into.

@stevekaczynski3793

3 жыл бұрын

I think, minus the Conquest, English would be much more like Dutch.

@sterlingwhite8473

3 жыл бұрын

There's a book called "how we'd talk if the English won in 1066" it's a good start

@ludiprice

2 жыл бұрын

People are working on such a hypothetical language - it's called Anglish. The project is detailed on the Anglish Moot wiki, if you're interested :)

@cosettapessa6417

2 жыл бұрын

@@stevekaczynski3793 ouch 😅

@edmerc92

2 жыл бұрын

@@ludiprice The problem with these "Anglish" hypotheticals is that they assume that there would be *no* French influence on English without the Norman Conquest, which isn't realistic given that basically every European language adopted French loanwords over the centuries. There would be fewer, for sure, but still some.

Interesting that we 'almost' ended up with There, They're, Their and Thier in English

@aronoc

3 жыл бұрын

I was thinking about all the extra homophones too, and I wonder if other words might have moved out of the way for the sake of clarity, maybe relying on synonyms or something. I mean, /ðər/ can only mean so many things before something breaks.

@tfan2222

2 күн бұрын

@@aronocThree years late, but…that feels like a very dialectal issue? For me, and most dialects of English, the /ðiːɹ/ of “thear” sounds very different from the /ðeɪɹ/ of “their,” they’re,” and “there.”

It's interesting that you proposed an example using "house" with a fossilized "z" sound. In my dialect, at any rate, in the plural, "houses" has two "z" sounds--not what one would expect if the phonological rules of English were applied consistently. However, I remember being in a linguistics class where about half the students pronounced "houses" with an "s" sound in the root and a "z" sound in the suffix (a consistent application of the English rule). The professor had to take a good chunk of time to draw up a rule to explain one and then another rule to produce the other.

@tjvw94

3 жыл бұрын

This is interesting and made me think of how I pronounce "house" and "houses". I pronounce the "s" in "house" as a standard "s". The last "s" in "houses" I pronounce as a definite "z". I took some time to randomly say houses throughout the day so I could get a better handle on the first "s". I do pronounce it as a "z" as well. I'm from the American Midwest.

@calar333

3 жыл бұрын

I've never noticed this before but I do, too.

Yes, please do more hypothetical videos, I find this sort of thing EXTREMELY fun, as I'm also a fan of Alternate History stories, this is pretty much a linguistic version, and I love it. Great vid as always!

It's an interesting thought experiment. I tried something similar a while back, though the vowels were much more reduced and it included final unstressed /m/ becoming /n/ and þ- being extended to the se/seo forms as happened in late Old English. I ended up with: ///// | Masc. | Fem. | Neut. | Pl. Nom. | the - the - that - the Acc. | then - the - that - the Gen. | thess - ther - thess - ther Dat. | then - ther - then - then

@2712animefreak

3 жыл бұрын

This is almost identical to German.

@redere4777

3 жыл бұрын

@@2712animefreak Yep, it's actually a closer match to the old Dutch system used in the early 1900s, because of some similar changes between English and other West Germanic languages. If I wanted to be a bit less conservative on keeping all the cases, I could have realistically added how unstressed English -en was reduced even further. It leads it to collapsing into a system very similar to the modern Dutch or some Low Saxon ones.

Don't keep second guessing yourself dude. This is great content! I grew up speaking English, but lived in Germany for a while in my late teens and it was such a headfuck suddenly having three different articles as well as dative and accusative. I got there in the end, but interestingly common German people don't seem to be too concerned about using the correct gender in normal everyday communication, it's far more important to write it correctly. Lots of people have adopted using just "d" with a shwar sound for "die, der, das" and "num" instead of "eine, einen, einer, einem" although the dative "eines" seems it be an exception. Could be different in other areas of the cournty this is just from the region I used to live in.

@KP3droflxp

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting, I think this definitely differs by dialect.

An an English language teacher I'm so thankful I don't have to deal with grammatical case. I learned German at university and they taught it hopelessly. Some of us "got" it, many didn't and were still just blindly following rules after three years. (For me it only clicked in a lightbulb moment when I connected it to the case relics in our pronominal system and that took 6 months.)

@villeporttila5161

3 жыл бұрын

I think cases are just something that comes with practice, you have to get them carved into your brain. I've been learning and speaking Russian for 15 years, and it's only really in the past 5 years where I can get a phrase off in the right case without thinking about it

@janboreczek3045

5 ай бұрын

Well, I'm a native speaker of a language that has 7 cases (Polish). Yet despite that, the case system in German, together with its genders utterly prevented me from making any progress during 12 years of learning. In contrast, English proved WAY easier simply because it lacks case system and genders (or at most only some vestigial forms, like she-her).

I really like the forms you arrived at, and the example sentences feel surprisingly familiar and natural. I wonder if some of these spellings would have been modeled after their reduced forms, especially see->se (like modern the). And I could see unstressed thome spelled as them, or thone as then. Cool idea!

A really interesting hypothetical, but also a helpful tutorial for Old English grammatical gender!

How you could you think this wouldn't be popular? More like this, please!

Could you do a video about how romance languages like Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French would look like if they had preserved Latin cases?

@Gadottinho

3 жыл бұрын

Nice

I’d be interested to know why in English some adjectives and nouns which are spoken with the unvoiced end sound /s/ such as close, house advice etc, change to the sound ending /z/ when verbs. What is it about the voiced sound which makes a word feel more like an action? Where does this stem from? Maybe it’s a similar pattern with cloth/clothe too, although clothes would be an exception there.

@aronoc

3 жыл бұрын

In Old English, the voiced versions only occurred between vowels. Many of those vowels have since disappeared but left the consonant voicing behind.

@Correctrix

3 жыл бұрын

Those esses were largely intervocalic in verbs. Even now, we add -es and -ing. Previously, -est, -eth, -èd and -en.

@mitchell1514

3 жыл бұрын

It's an example of the fossilisation talked about in the video. The noun derives from the Old English hūs and the verb from hūsian. As Simon said in the video, fricatives were voiced in OE when they ocurred between voiced sounds (most often vowels). So the in hūsian would be pronounced as /z/. The vowels at the end of hūsian dropped off by Modern English, leaving us with house. If the OE phonological rules still applied, the fricative would be devoiced but /s/ and /z/ are both phonemes now so we don't bother devoicing it. The same thing happened with clothe, which derived from clāþian (vs cloth from clāþ).

Really enjoyed this one! Please do more hypotheticals.

Whenever I watch your videos I feel like I've literally travelled back in time a thousand years

Wow! Why did I find your channel at night? I need to sleep but I want to listen to this such perfect topic. I would listen to these stuff for hours. Thank you for the videos. Perfect!

Another fine job, Simon. This is very interesting work and you are to be encouraged in continuing. Best of luck with your dissertation!

If you do end up continuing this sort of thing, may I suggest you take some inspiration from Frisian? I find it a bit disappointing how Anglish constructionists look more into languages like Dutch and German for inspiration when Frisian, a language that's basically a natural version of Anglish, already exists and would make for much better comparison.

2 жыл бұрын

I speak german and friesian, so its very good to see that here, because i see how it works

@arkle519

2 жыл бұрын

@ are you north frisian?

2 жыл бұрын

@@arkle519 eastfrisian, see my channel

@arkle519

2 жыл бұрын

@ It is an honour. Frisians are pretty scarce, especially more so on the internet. It's always great when you come across one, and you're East Frisian too! It's like finding gold in a copper mine. I'll definitely check out your stuff.

2 жыл бұрын

@@arkle519 very well said. thank you so much. it is a very rich cultural heritage.

I love this style of video: it applies your expertise in a way that's interesting, fun and more digestible for non-linguists. I'd love to see more!

Yes, please - more like this. Quite enjoyable. Imagining what could possibly be the state of the language now is fun, especially if one has had exposure to multiple languages. What that would mean given the befuddling inability of many to distinguish between their-there-they’re is an interesting idea to pursue, as well. Maybe one day you’ll address issues such as, “what causes the transmogrification of languages more: ineptitude among students, laziness, lack of effective teaching, etc.?” Thanks for all your efforts, Simon.

Simon please do more of this! I, as a german, love this!

Great video Simon! You know what I'd like to do? I'd like to write a poem (or any kind of artist literature) and take your suggestions to hiw English would today if we kept all the features they had earlier on but lost, translating it into modern English. That would be so interesting to me. What do the others think about this idea?

I am highly fascinated by what you do in these videos. I did all this in uni here in Germany some 25 years ago and I always have been really keen on historical language studies (and still I am) and I really like the way you're doing hands-on videos by playing around with linguistic theories. I wish I had had a chance to watch this when I was a student because reading about it in dusty libraries is the one thing but this is the other! You should become a teacher and do this with your students.

I have never commented in here before Simon, but I do so enjoy your videos. This one, in particular was great fun. Thank you

Very interesting, I hope you do more like this!

For me as a German, this is interesting to watch as German still works almost* exactly the way Old English used to, and so in passing, Simon has done a good job of explaining why it is much harder for native speakers of English to learn German than vice versa. Germans just have to learn that, for example, "der", "die" and "das" (the article's nominative form for masculine, feminine and neutral nouns, respectively) as well as "den" (accusative form for masc. nouns) all translate to "the", whereas native speakers of English who want to learn German have to learn where to translate their own "the" into one of these four forms - and that is before you even start adapting the nouns themselves to whether they are a) feminine, masculine or neutral, and b) in the nominative, genitive, accusative or dative case. *) Almost, because some distinctions have disappeared in German too. For example, Simon's hypothetical sentence [at 10:42] "The door thore house are all wooden" would nowadays read "Die Türen [pl. of Tür = door] der Häuser [pl. of Haus = house] sind alle aus Holz", with the "der" = "thore" = "of the [i.e. genitive plural]" employed here being identical to "der" = "the [nominative plural]" nowadays. But you only have to go back to pre-1750 German to find that in those days the article for genitive plural [i.e. the equivalent of thore] would still have been "derer", and thus still distinct from nominative plural which was "der" then.

I really enjoy your content a lot, and it’s probably my favourite videos to watch on youtube.

An amazing hypothetical, super explanation. Love this content

Really Fun watch! Hope to see more like this

I really liked this video. It seems like a really entertaining format so I think you should make more hypotheticals.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, it’s fascinating 😊

Very entertaining, very interesting, and very educational. What a great video!

Great stuff Simon and best of luck with the audition for the reboot of Catweazel!

Great video. As others have been saying, it might be interesting to see you make a video on how you feel about Anglish.

Thanks for all of the amazing videos

I'd just like to briefly chime in on the prospect of more hypotheticals: Yes, please, that was extremely fun!

I’ve been waiting for a while for someone to make a video on this

I loved thone video! I would love to see more of these.

Fantastic videos, by the way. As a fellow linguist, I think your assessment is quite accurate.

This was great. More please.

this video answered a question I had since about 2008, thank you very much!

@Leofwine

3 жыл бұрын

What was the question you had?

@xmvziron

3 жыл бұрын

@@Leofwine ... The title of the video

@Ptaku93

3 жыл бұрын

@@xmvziron yeah, pretty much

Man, do you have a website or something with all these thoughts and ideas written down? I think you should, as it would be an interesting collection to explore for many of us!

@brexitgreens

3 жыл бұрын

*1.* Why would you want a collection of interesting ideas _of a specific person,_ as opposed to a collection of interesting ideas? That's irrational. *2.* As someone whose possessions have been destroyed and thrown away by other people _many times,_ and who's been advised to throw them away on other occasions, and whose possessions have been naturally consumed by weather, worms and mold over the decades otherwise, and who's wasted a small fortune and a huge chunk of eternity trying to preserve them, I'm forced to ask you: weren't you told by everyone that hoarding is a mental disorder? If so, why are you encouraging it here? *3.* We're in the same boat. I absolutely love these ideas too. But that alone doesn't make them good, and I'm sure some professionals would dismiss them as worthless crap. And definitely such respected authorities as my mother, my cleaner, my social worker, and my psychiatrist would. So let me pass our society's wisdom to you and teach you what I was taught: *everything you value is actually rubbish.*

@dbuc4671

2 жыл бұрын

@@brexitgreens just stop

@MohammedAli-hl4mr

2 жыл бұрын

@@brexitgreens ...

@brexitgreens

2 жыл бұрын

@@MohammedAli-hl4mr I'm glad somebody still reads it. That KZread comment is my only legacy.

this is a great idea. please do more of these

I'm really enjoying this channel.

Love the idea of these hypothetical videos! Next time, you could mention how the declension of adjectives would have been affected - if they would have survived the extensive sound changes at all. Or maybe, you could compare contemporary German (or perhaps even the archaic Dutch) declension patterns with the hypothetical end result in Modern English. I'm also curious how the Old English verb conjugation system would be preserved in a similar way - perhaps English would still use the subjunctive mood or have more strong/"irregular" verbs? Coincidentally, I was also thinking about the same thing about a year ago. I was attempting to bring these old articles to the modern language, applying the sound changes (at least the ones I could find on Wikipedia, which isn't quite ideal for such experiments), but it was nowhere near as scientifically accurate - though, admittedly, that wasn't my primary goal. Back then, for the dative plural form of the definite article, I was playing with the idea that the original form "thome" would potentially be replaced by "them", the 3rd person plural objective pronoun. My reasoning was that 1) the pronoun "they" almost universally displaced the Old English counterparts, so they would be prevalent in everyday use; 2) articles and pronouns tend to be related to each other; and 3) the phonetic similarities seemed too strong to ignore.

Interesting idea. Would love to see more like this

Them hypotheticals be interesting!

@RedHair651

3 жыл бұрын

A habitual is weird in this sentence

Interesting. Gender and cases probably didn't disappear in one go, so it would be interesting to know how it happened - what disappeared first and what was the last to go. Looking at Scandinavian, the case system was in collapse around 1500(?), but the dative didn't die so easily and several dialects still has it, and the gender system is either intact or reduced to two genders (or all gone in some Danish dialects, I believe).

@vatterholm

3 жыл бұрын

You can more or less make 4 categories for how much is preserved, not counting the leftover genitive clitic: -Category 1: Nominative, accusative, dative and genitive. Only Icelandic. -Category 2: Nominative, accusative and dative. Genitive is mostly dead. Faroese, Dalmål such as Orsamål and early Elfdalian. -Category 3: Nominative and dative. Living accusative and genitive gone. Plenty of Norwegian and some Swedish dialects follow this. -Category 4: Case system dead, except some fixed phrases and the "genitive" clitic. We've seen changes live, as for example Elfdalian went from 2 to 3 in the early 20th century, and plenty of dialects are going from 3 to 4 currently.

@brexitgreens

3 жыл бұрын

@@vatterholm The history of languages seems to be going only in one direction. Makes one wonder what it took for it to go in the opposite direction once and give rise to a language with such a multidimensional grammar as Proto Indo European. Were those prehistoric people even more cultured than ancient Greeks? If so, where's their science, arts, cities and literature? Nothing left beyond a few graves and chariots. Quite a mystery.

@vatterholm

3 жыл бұрын

@@brexitgreens New cases emerge all the time. The language became much more complex from Proto-Norse to Old Norse by merging the articles into the words. Then even as some cases went away while going from Old Norse to modern dialecs, some have developed new cases like vocative.

@vatterholm

3 жыл бұрын

@@brexitgreens Doesn't have anything to do with how "cultured" a people is.

@brexitgreens

3 жыл бұрын

@@vatterholm Thanks for bringing up those cases, I didn't know about them. So Old Norwegian had suffix declension, like non Germanic Euro languages… that's fun. I would say that an advanced grammar must be a reflection on intellectual capacity of the speaker - for the simple reason that a dull man wouldn't be capable of it. Advanced grammar seems to imply some cultivation as well, therefore science, literature and poetry. Grammar is similar to algebra: if you can inflect words and build compound sentences, you probably also can perform symbolic calculus.

Another great video, I love this!

I don‘t know if this is relevant, but do we still have remnants of adjective endings in English? For example, as in wooden door (wooden) Lenten services (Lenten) (church services during Lent) and golden pear (golden).

@sabotage9926

3 жыл бұрын

yes

@Anon.G

3 жыл бұрын

never thought about that

@thomaseck3210

3 жыл бұрын

No, these are just the Germanic denominators of substance, meaning "made of", same in German: Gold - golden, metal - metallen (made of metal), in German, often an -r- is added: Glas - gläsern, Eisen - eisern etc. - these forms have nothing to do with grammatical endings but are more like the -y ending (fish - fishy etc.). The only remnant of adjective declension in English that I know of is the -en form of old as in "the olden days".

@Nea1wood

3 жыл бұрын

@@thomaseck3210 but what about 'in the olden days'? "Old' is already an adjective, so could this not be a fossilised dative plural?

@thomaseck3210

3 жыл бұрын

@@Nea1wood Yes, exactly. That's the only remnant of an adjective with fossilized case markers, if one discounts "olde" as in "the olde shoppe" and similar faux-old formations which date back to the Middle English forms and also show signs of declension, although it is not sure until when the final -e was actually pronounced and used as such.

Thank you for another really interesting and fun video, Simon. I have one loosely related question: Generally, the personal pronouns of the third person "they, them, their" are attributed to be of wholly Scandinavian origin. I just read a text by a guy who said that this isn't necessarily the case and that these forms are actually remnants of the old English plural forms of the articles, "they" corresponding to OE "tha" (sorry, can't do the thorn), "them" being the dative plural form "tham" and "their" being the modern form of "thara". He backs this up by proving that similar forms were in use as personal pronouns before the Norse invasions and can be traced back to OE times. He doesn't deny that the emergence of these forms as the dominant forms was probably strongly influenced by Old Norse and that the process was facilitated by the many confusing forms of the old personal pronouns system that still exist in German (like "sie" meaning either "she" or "they", depending on the context). Also (and this is "original research", or my personal observation), one could argue that German has a similar workaround to avoid the confusion by using the plural articles "die" instead of "sie", "denen" instead of "ihnen" and "deren" instead of "ihres" in colloquial speech. So even the process of actual article forms taking over personal pronoun forms can be seen in other languages. I find this theory very intriguing as it would mean that more forms of the Old English article have survived, albeit probably influenced in sound by Norse. What do you think?

@HenryLoenwind

3 жыл бұрын

Just one small correction: It's not she/they that's differentiated by context but you/they. "sie geht" (she goes) != "sie gehen" (they go) == "sie gehen" (you go).

@thomaseck3210

3 жыл бұрын

@@HenryLoenwind No, "sie" in the singular means "she" and in the plural it means "they". So your example with "gehen" is actually correct, "sie gehen" means "they go". What you mean is the polite form "Sie" (with a capital S) which indeed means "you". So German "sie" actually has three equivalents in English.

@HenryLoenwind

3 жыл бұрын

@@thomaseck3210 But only the you/they pair needs to be distinguished by context, the she/they pair uses grammar for it.

Dative singular survives fossilised in words like alive (OE on life), as suggested re how house (dat.) could have had a voiced z in pronunciation. One problem not mentioned is that the dat. pl. -um sometimes became -en in ME, and is preserved in names like Nokes (atten okes < at þæm acum), so case endings in -n and -m could well have fallen together in ME even if the overall system had been preserved (though words like seldom look like dat. pl. -um, I think they are re-formations from earlier -en).

This is really cool. Be neat if this was expanded to all noun, verb and adjective classes. Really curious to see the result.

Good luck on your dissertation Simon! When it's done, will it be available anywhere for us to look at? (Forgive me if that's a dumb question, I have no clue how dissertations work :P)

I like the concept. It is also something that unless you upload it, there would probably be no equivalent video. Pretty much as with most of your videos, though. A very good thing. I'd love to see more videos on hipotheticals. By the way, I loved the twist of going for ' sorry for my new phone' instead of 'sorry for the background noise'. I guess the record Guiness remains intact

I love theoretical takes on language! Good stuff 👍

I saw that Jack Adams vid. Is was very illuminating.

Surprisingly understandable, when you put together some examples. As with John Doe, I wouldn't mind seeing some more of these hypotheticals. Anyway, best of wishes for your dissertation.

A curious discovery I've found in Middle English is that from all the texts I've read - ranging from early 13th anchoritic texts, the Katherine Group, the Matter of England texts to Langland, Chaucer and beyond, I've never seen the word 'second' used. It has always been first, 'next', third, fourth and so on. This is particularly the case in 'Ayenbite of Inwit', which takes taxonomy to the extreme in its classification of vices and virtues. I wonder when 'second' came in to usage.

Good luck on your dissertation! This is really fascinating :) Not sure if I'm the only one having this problem, but I find that sometimes the notes aren't on the screen long enough to read them. I personally find the slide heavy videos hard to follow sometimes, maybe it's just me lol. I still watch them, though. Still love the content haha

Another gem! I'm not keen on the transcription system you're using for modern English, though. Why do they analyse diphthongs as vowel + consonant (semi-vowel). I curious as to what it is you prefer about that. Good luck with thier dissertation.

"Tho folk are in thome housem" sounds like something you'd see in one of those surreal memes

Brilliant as always, man!

Id really like if you did more videos like this in the future

As for the modern pronunciation of "then", etc., my theory is that the soft th- requires less muscular effort than the hard th-, and thus the most used words (the, then, that, etc.) reduced to the easier form simply because they were used more.

You need to do a video about extinct letters and phonetic symbols. Thorn and eth were so cool. The crossed d is awesome too

Really enjoyed . Thank you

I find Simon's talks on historical linguistics fascinating.

Nice to see a new video of yours. Thank the Cosmos that gender and case have (almost completely) disappeared from English! Interesting experiment, though. Thanks!

This was delightful, like the language in an old tale.

Whoa ive been thinking about this very subject very recently. Pogie vid.

Hey Simon, I loved the video! It's a really cool topic and I hope you do more English evolution hypotheticals in the future. I was just wondering, though, should "thas" and "that" be transcribed as /ðas/ and /ðat/, though? Shouldn't it be /ðæs/ and /ðæt/?

@simonroper9218

3 жыл бұрын

Good question! I'm using Geoff Lindsey's guidelines for phonemic transcription because they align better with my own accent - I have [a] for the 'trap' vowel. In General American and some UK accents, it would indeed be [æ] :)

@JosiahSiegel

3 жыл бұрын

@@simonroper9218 Ah, okay, I think I see. I think my issue was that I was thinking of it as the /æ/ vowel rather than the 'trap' vowel, but that just goes to show you we have lexical sets for a reason. I'll have to read a little more on Geoff Lindsey. Either way, thanks for explaining, and I look forward to the next video.

Fascinating. Do you have a video which explains how and why English lost its grammatical gender? Thanks

Very interesting video! Thanks :)

This is a lot of fun! Very happy to see Geoff Lindsey's SSBE transcription here, I'm a proponent of using it more widely

@simonroper9218

3 жыл бұрын

I think it would alleviate a lot of errors that get made in IPA transcriptions because people have been taught that '[æ] is the vowel in 'cat'' and so on, when those things don't apply in their dialect! It's a really nice piece of work :)

@quinterbeck

3 жыл бұрын

@@simonroper9218 Totally agree. Geoff's article cleared up a lot of things for me. I'd always had a bee in my bonnet about using lax vowel symbols in diphthong transcriptions. I never got a satisfactory answer to why e.g. PRICE should be transcribed /aɪ/, and not /aj/ (when to me, that's clearly a more accurate description!). Realising that /aɪ/ *was* accurate for a true RP speaker made sense of it all. I also love how satisfyingly tabular the SSBE vowels are. *chef's kiss*

@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh

3 жыл бұрын

I had to comment because your username is my real life actual name and it was very jarring to see

@quinterbeck

3 жыл бұрын

@@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh Whoa, how weird! I thought I'd made it up, never guessed it might be somebody's actual name. I've used it for about ten years in a few different places. I hope you don't mind! Out of curiosity, is it just your first name or is it your full name?

Fascinating. In Dutch singular word ending in s sometimes change to z. So 'huis'->'huizen', or 'vaas'->'vazen'. Something similar happens with f and v. So 'beef'->'beven'. This only happens when you have this stronger sounding vowel. In Dutch there is 'a' and 'aa', or 'e' and 'ee', or 'o' and 'oo', or 'i' and 'ie'. Only if the vowel before the s or f is pronounced with the longer vowel it changes from an s to a z or an f to a v

How fun! Thank you for this ☺️

I find your explanation of the s/z very interesting. In Dutch the distinction between s/z in the word for house (huis) still exists; the plural is huizen and a fossilised dative huize is found in some expressions. However because it only happens in some words, not in others, we interpret it differently: as final consonant devoicing because words can't end in voiced consonants in Dutch. I initially thought this was a Dutch invention because the 'z' in such words only appears in spelling in Dutch and Frisian; however I just realise it is present in German as well where -s becomes pronounced as /z/ if you attach an ending while -ss stays /s/.

@simonroper9218

3 жыл бұрын

I'd seen it in spelling in Dutch, but wasn't confident enough that I understood the Dutch system to mention it here! I think allophonic voicing of fricatives has historically been fairly widespread in Germanic languages. The same applies in some modern English plurals, where 'house' has /s/ and 'houses' has /z/.

You are so articulate and I really enjoy your teaching capabilities and background knowledge you have yourself acquired. You sure you aren't a linguist? I noticed you said "NEE ter" for neuter. Where Americans would say NOO ter. Interesting.

Very interesting video! Should have more views!

7:20 I was thinking they'd all end up with a schwa but you were faster 😀 The Great Vowel Shift seems to have mostly affected stressed vowels, while most unstressed service words tend to reduce to a mere [ə]. As for the [θ] to [ð] shift, I think this also resulted from "weakening". Unstressed syllables tend to cause lenition.

One complicated idea I've had floating around is creating a Romlang (a Romance conlang based on Late Latin) based on a scenario where the Anglo-Saxons didn't displace the native Romano-British but assimilated with them instead, adopting Late Latin and some Brittonic words while still undergoing the same sound changes as English did in normal history. I wonder whether the resulting language would be any similar to French (as the Franks originally spoke a language somewhat similar to the Anglo-Saxons).

@junctionfilms6348

3 жыл бұрын

Though, the Romano British was a apparently small minority of people ? most people were Celtic speakers, the population is said to have been four million and had halved by the time or during significant influxes of Germanic people started The Romans were apparently, only an administrative class really, some retries from the military and some Celts who worked for them and became 'Romano British' So, maybe the scenario might work better if in an alternative time, Celtic persisted longer in what is now England ( and Scotland ) would we be looking at an English regional dialect using much more Celtic also ?

@thumbstruck

3 жыл бұрын

@@junctionfilms6348 Interesting. English adopted "mom" or "mum" and "dad" or "da" from Celtic.

@junctionfilms6348

3 жыл бұрын

​@@thumbstruck Ah yes, forgot about those, I think there are a few others of course, I think 'do' ( to do ) is from Celtic ? Where I grew up ( Norfolk ) there is an old slang for a wife or girl "mawther" ( nothing to do with Mother ! quite different pronunciation in the accent ) and it is debated about the origin of this but there is an almost same word in Irish There are theories it is even a Britannic leftover or somehow made its way into dialect a long long time ago, maybe even borrowed from the local Celtic by the Anglians, though this seems on the face of it unlikely, as surely the Brittonic Celtic then, in that area, would be closer to modern Welsh of course but not Irish, I do not know enough about it tbh I think it is plausible though, that Celts persisted for much longer and even side by side with Germanic incomers, maybe even until Norman times. Certainly the place names of the area can be connected to Celtic sometimes

@DY142

3 жыл бұрын

There's already Il Bethisad which has a fantasy British Romance; though they just made it to feel like actual Welsh.

@junctionfilms6348

3 жыл бұрын

@@DY142 Though, Welsh is a Brittonic Celtic language, not Latin

Thanks Simon. Those are a lot of fun for me as a German to follow.

I wonder if the mixing between Middle English and German speakers produced the Th- sound with less breath because it was closer to the D- sound used for articles in German.

I want MORE videos that are linguistics filled!

This was really interesting. I wonder if "that" would merge with the modern "that" and if "see" would adopt a "th-" based on all the other articles having "th-"

4:52 the TH voiced because these words are unstressed (i.e., they're not pronounced as separate words, but rather as another syllable on another adjacent word) and the voicing of OE þ mostly happened in word-medial positions (that is, word-medially in reference to phonetic words, not to grammatical ones)

I found that fascinating, thanks.

More of this please

Really interesting video!

Great Video!

Like it! Do you think it might be possible to construct English as it might sound five hundred years from now, by extending any changes we know are currently underway?

Simon can you tell a bit of high german cuz there were many the same changes as in english taking place such as: i - ei, sk - sh, an - en. in verbs endings and so forth.

I loved that, thank you!