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@kicitorun

8 ай бұрын

​@@L17_8i love you, the end!

This expedition is the poster child for "THE WORST CASE" scenario, wrong timing, wrong strategy, wrong tactics, miscommunication, etc.

@thatoneguy5856

8 ай бұрын

Plus the general that had the actual plan was MIA due to politics

@noname-bk7bc

8 ай бұрын

I think the post mortem of this is one of the most beautiful things written in a history

@MiguelPerez-zx2wg

8 ай бұрын

Don't worry. Someone will top this off within 2,356 years later.

@Redactedredacted5837

8 ай бұрын

@@MiguelPerez-zx2wg Be prepared for angry Wehraboos.

@johnmatthews2553

8 ай бұрын

The Spartans sending reinforcements to Syracuse really gets me. They did everything in their power to make it difficult for Athens. Corinth helped Syracuse as well..

Ah yes, the infamous Sicilian Expedition. Everything that could’ve gone wrong did.

The Syracusans spared only those Athenians that knew verses from the tragedies of Euripedes. Thucidides says that for years veterans would kiss Euripedes hands on the street because he saved them from the quarries.

@olamideolanrewaju4005

8 ай бұрын

Why spare those who knew verses from Euripedes?

@user-sc5iv2rp2t

8 ай бұрын

@@olamideolanrewaju4005 Because he was the superstar poet of the era known to all the Greek world.

The most important thing about the Sicilian Expedition is probably the importance of consensus and cooperation in operations. The lack of cohesion amongst Athenian generals was one of the major reasons for the expedition's failure. But war is always political, and there were situations when Athens could have chosen differently. The world has changed massively since then, but this remains a constant. Also important is showing how overstretching oneself makes for terrible consequences. Athens's over-investment in Sicily caused problems when the war resumed fully. The geopolitical implications of this are also important; most of Magna Graecia was now off Athens's influence, and the city itself was more dependent on its allies. This will bite them back later in the war.

@user-nl4mm4gd8q

8 ай бұрын

Do you want to talk about kurdistan?☺️

@samuelmargueret9626

8 ай бұрын

You got some heavy knowledge on your side dude !! Love that

@64standardtrickyness

8 ай бұрын

Prof Rufus Fears claimed that Nikias in his letter asking for more help asked the expedition leave instead is that true?

@alexischatzipoulios1803

8 ай бұрын

Nikias never had a warm spot for the expedition from its conception in the minds of the politicians,the fever that overtook the people in the streets of Athens(bakers were offering croissants in the shape of the island,prostitutes were asking coyly customers what will they bring to them ,when they return victorious with spoils),and his speech before the assembly was a desperate attempt-yet in vain-to dissuade his fellow citizens from what he saw as an impending disaster.He gambled big time in his speech,overstreching the demands for the expedition in the form of absolute necessities and requirements,hoping inwardly to meet the rejection of the Athenian Demos.Dumbfounded,he was struck with a resounding O.K!(Comme on,Nikias,do not tell us why we will lose,but instead what we need in order to win>>Alcibiades,yours trully

Spartan Diplomat: The Athenians will create a United States of Force! Americans: Can we use that name?

@dand7763

8 ай бұрын

European Union TODAY: United States of Europe (under the german rule)

The fact that sicily has been so much contested in Europe through the ages is just crazy !! Greeks , Normans , italians , romans , spanish and others .... i Wonder how many people died for sicily !! Love your vidéo as always

@AhmedAshraf-ue6yz

8 ай бұрын

even arabs

@geordiejones5618

8 ай бұрын

Might be the single most strategic island on the planet. Control it, and you will historically control most if not all of the Mediterranean. At least up through WW2. Right now I'd say the Panama/Suez canals and Taiwan are what I'd call the most significant military targets for the 21st century and the US has by far the best foothold on all three with its global navy.

@wilkannen8346

8 ай бұрын

The funny thing is as soon as anyone takes Sicily, they begin ignoring it.

@Liamtheseriousguy

8 ай бұрын

Carthaginians, brits and americans too!

I find it absolutely incredible that we're able to understand battles fought almost 2500 years ago. It's just wonderful.

14:07 This lunar eclipse (when "Gaia hid Selene from her brother, Helios") took place on the evening of August 28, 413 BCE. The eclipse was total, with the total phase lasting 43 minutes. As seen from Syracuse, the middle (darkest part) of the eclipse occurred at about 11:00 PM. Depending on the weather, another lunar eclipse would have been visible from Syracuse nearly 6 months earlier - on the evening of March 4. I cannot help but wonder what effect - if any - this almost total eclipse had on the Athenian invasion.

@Gronk79

8 ай бұрын

Great comment! Could the ancients, however, even predict a lunar eclipse?

@schroedingersdog7965

8 ай бұрын

@@Gronk79 Ancient Babylonian astronomers certainly predicted lunar eclipses - we have their cuneiform-inscribed baked clay tablets listing accurately predicted eclipses hundreds of years in their future. Eclipses occur in regular cycles (the "saros"), so predicting the dates of future lunar eclipses isn't difficult if you have records of the dates of past eclipses, as the Babylonians did.

I have been following you guy from college-my time being a history teacher. This channel is like my new Saturday morning cartoons, amazing work!

"Y'know, boys, it occurs to me we might have read that eclipse just a little bit wrong."

Athens controlling entire Aegean sea and the coast of Anatolia but sending their army to Sicily and dying is like watching a guy with money enough to be set for life gamble away everything on a slot machine.

@panagiotis7946

7 ай бұрын

e great plan was the unification of the entire Greek world to deal with the Persian danger

Alcibiades's father had old connections with the Spartan aristocracy. Alcibiades himself was said to have been breastfed by a Spartan wet nurse in his infancy (Spartan girls were highly sought after as wet nurses). This connection may have made it easy for him to defect to Sparta and ingratiate himself into their society and be accepted and adored by the elites of Sparta.

@circleancopan7748

8 ай бұрын

While most of his time, he served Athens with all his heart. But what Athenians gave to his loyalty in exchange? Suspicion and utter contempt.

@cal2127

8 ай бұрын

​@@circleancopan7748honestly thats one of the major flaws of democracy. anyone who does well is usually driven out by infighting by minor oligarchs who feel threatened.

@mikkelsieburg89

8 ай бұрын

@@cal2127 This is not even close to be uniqe to democracys

@jimhjortsberg2990

8 ай бұрын

​@@circleancopan7748 He seemed to have known that the charges was mostly just a political conspiracy against him anyway. He actually tried to have the trial done prior to leaving which the court refused to do. And the fact that he was convicted in absentia and condemned to death with an entire talent worth of gold offered to whoever managed to kill him might have proved him right....

Athens should have begun preparing their exit strategy as soon as enemy reinforcements began to pour in. Waiting 27 days to withdraw was a fatal mistake.

Learning about this is what made think that maybe the Athenians weren't the 'good guys' in the war. >What do you do when you're a democracy fighting an autocracy breathing down your neck? Launch a surprise invasion against a neutral democracy on the other side of the Greek world, of course. Everything about this was a mess. Athena surely withdrew her favor in the fiasco that followed.

@starbreeze7249

8 ай бұрын

Athens had its share of good guy moments and bad guy moments depending on the leader. It was a time ot strife, it was hard to be the good guy. What the Greeks came to learn, however, was it was better to be ruled by Athenians than it was by Spartans. Of course in the end it was Thebes and Sparta who were essentially completely wiped out, while Athens continued on

@Jaco059

8 ай бұрын

Makes you question the infallibility of democracy which the modern politician in America does so without question. If the leaders of your democracy don’t have to follow the will of the people then you basically aren’t a democracy anymore. And who holds the leaders accountable the people are supposed to but you can’t fix the problems quick enough and if they don’t care to listen to the people then what’s the point.

@Jaco059

8 ай бұрын

⁠@@starbreeze7249but they lost the war and were basically occupied by Sparta and Thebes for years. The Athenians would never gain the power they had pre 400 bc and were eventually forced into joining Alexander.

@al-muwaffaq341

8 ай бұрын

There was no good guys in this war. Sparta and Athens committed atrocities.

@markcoroneos7811

8 ай бұрын

@@Jaco059it comes down to the break up of the “leagues” following the war and the theban hegemony. Sparta had its back broken after leuctra, losing messenia effectively broke their society. Without the helot slaves, spartans were never able to project power the way they could prior. Hence why they stayed inactive during the rise of macedonia. Athens lost its delian league and suffered for a time, but was still able to capitalise on their economic and naval strength. Their society wasnt dismantled as would happen to sparta. They, along with thebes, we’re constantly checking phillip’s expansionism until he decisively defeated them at chaeronea.

Alkibiades is one of my favourite historical personalities because he lived one of the most ridiculous political lives. I'd hate his guts when he'd be a politician today, but in retrospective he's a charismatic leader who is actually able to back up his charisma, as he was also a good general which will be noticed a bit later in the war when he keeps Athens alive for a few more years.

@dingusdean1905

8 ай бұрын

He was a mad lad in the purest sense of the term

@user-nz1eu8cz1d

8 ай бұрын

@@dingusdean1905 but very popular with the ladies as we will see in the future.

@mikloshoffer282

8 ай бұрын

I tend to agree on that. Also, I am under the impression that later in his life he had overcome a lot of his earlier character flaws. The fact that his past finally caught up with him when he had actually become a better man, to me gives great depth to his story with an abundance of both glory and tragedy.

@user-nz1eu8cz1d

8 ай бұрын

@@mikloshoffer282 there is a fine historical novel with the title ''My Master Alkiviades''. It's his life viewed by his personnal servant as this aspect of Alkiviades as you described it. Sadly for most of the readers is in greek.

@mikloshoffer282

8 ай бұрын

@@user-nz1eu8cz1d Thank you, I see it in English as well. With a band of mine we did a cycle based on The Rise and Fall of Athens by Plutarch.

The Syracusans were hugh fans of theatre and Athenian plays. Apparently the only way to get out of the quarry was to be able to recite a play in a way that the locals found suitably entertaining.

A really good description of the Epipolae Plateau fortifications particularly the Euralus Fort was in Peter Connelly's excellent Illustrated book Greece and Rome at war. Years ago I lost my extensive library of ancient military history in a house fire and am still working to replace the most important ones.

Many years ago when I first began studying ancient military history I saw a description of the fortifications of the Epipolae Plateau at Syracuse. Have never forgot that and it would be very welcome to see a follow up on it.

Kings and genrals is my fav history channel. Brilliant as alwys. We always appreciate your hard work and dedication towards these videos. Your fan from Sri Lanka ❤️.

Quality content as usual. According to Plutarch, Syracuse and a few surrounding cities were founded by Greeks from Corinth.

We need a Total War from this period.

@KingsandGenerals

8 ай бұрын

Wrath of Sparta DLC does a good job

@jonbaxter2254

8 ай бұрын

Thanks, will check it out! @@KingsandGenerals

One of the best episodes ever released by Kings and Generals imo! (and I have seen all videos regarding ancient/medieval history) Also, I can't wait for your video about the Ten Thousand!

@CoreyANeal2000

8 ай бұрын

17:06 I love how they go into how one of the leaders didn't want to kill the othersides, but his side was too angry.

@queldron

8 ай бұрын

@@CoreyANeal2000 Yeah, a chivalry move that didn't "move" the Syracusans.

Basically excessive ambition, lack of adequate preparation, ineffective leadership, Sicilian resistance and adverse conditions all contributed to the Athenian defeat. Lack of resources, coordination, and local support, along with resistance from Sicilian cities, made it impossible for Athens to conquer Sicily. This defeat marked the beginning of the decline of Athens.

@user-nl4mm4gd8q

8 ай бұрын

Do you want to about kurdistan?☺️

@kingt0295

8 ай бұрын

You said the same thing twice there lol

@br0k3nman

8 ай бұрын

Sounds like Ruzzia in Ukraine. 😹

@panagiotis7946

7 ай бұрын

the great plan was the unification of the entire Greek world to deal with the Persian danger If Alcibiades had not been hunted by the oligarchs and led the campaign it would have been a complete success Alcibiades was a great strategic mind Nikias did not believe in the campaign and entered into a great adventure

Its even funnier once you consider one of Pericles' advice was "As long as we don't launch ourselves into the conquest of new lands and focus on our naval dominance, war shall go well for us". Guess Alcibiades wanted glory no matter what

"...as Gaia hid Selena from her brother, Helios." That was beautiful K&G. Congrats !

It always gets better every episode!

HBO should make a historical drama series for the Greek states like it did for Rome.

@joeltochukwu4199

8 ай бұрын

Was thinking about this the other day. We seem to have a lot of movies/series based on ancient Rome than ancient Greece. No idea why. History like the Diadochi wars with its plethora of characters, plots and subplots, betrayals can be made a series with equal standing with GoT.

@theawesomeman9821

8 ай бұрын

@@joeltochukwu4199 I think people are just more aware about Rome because it was an ancient super power

@joeltochukwu4199

8 ай бұрын

@@theawesomeman9821 Yes you are right. But the Greeks were a superpower too. Well, maybe superpower is not the word, but they were very very influential in classical history and antiquity and with so many stories and characters, I'm surprised we don't have much film/series production about them.

@theawesomeman9821

8 ай бұрын

@@joeltochukwu4199 there was that biopic of Alexander the Great played by Collin Feral, 300, and the movie Troy which starred Brad Pit for Greek content.

This channel continues to feed my interest/passion for history with each and every video, so keep it up!

Well done and very descriptive video. Actually Nikias asked from Athens to be relieved of his command and and permission to abandon the campaign.Instead he received reinforcements with Demosthenes. When one of the most heartbreaking moments as described by Thucidides was when during the athenian retreat, the sick and wounded warriors cried and begged their fellow soldiers not to abandon them. Another intersting fact is that some Athenians survived the quarries by reciting verses of Aeschylus and other great poets of Athens.

@Hadrexus

8 ай бұрын

WHY IZ YOU WHISPERIN YA GIT

@user-nz1eu8cz1d

8 ай бұрын

@@Hadrexus

Alcebiades is a character in Plato's Symposium. Handsome and talented man, but he crushed on the ugly yet intelligent Socrates.

@user-nl4mm4gd8q

8 ай бұрын

Do you want to talk about kurdistan?☺️

I like when you include phrases about Greek mythology in your video narration on the minute 12:47, 14:10, and 16:04. Maybe the Athenians didn't have the blessing of Hermes and Ares so their expedition had to totally fail!

@user-nl4mm4gd8q

8 ай бұрын

Do you want to talk about kurdistan?☺️

@user-nl4mm4gd8q

8 ай бұрын

Do you want to talk about kurdistan?☺️

@unknowguy9642

8 ай бұрын

Yeah i really like that line about Gaia hiding Selene from Helios. It sound just like something the ancient Greek scholar would say😂😂

You guys have the best youtube channels by far! Wizards and warriors is just as awesome!

Thanks for sharing these fantastic videos! ⚔🔥🙌

@KingsandGenerals

8 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Well Age Of Empires didn't have it entirely wrong with the incessent wall building.

At last, I was waiting for this for so long!

I see you there, little guy. Tiny little Rome all tucked away, bet he must be amazed at all these big fish swimming around him.

Thank you for the quality information in this video

@KingsandGenerals

8 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

@-RONNIE

8 ай бұрын

@@KingsandGenerals of course

Good documentary, i was somehow surprised by the expression : heavely armoured light troops

Excellent video!

As an Italian-American, I love studying this part of the Peloponnesian War, because the Athenians stupidly brought the war to Italy. And this was when Syracuse was at the height of its power, and would continue to rise under Dionysius I, until the rising might of Rome came on the scene 200 years later.

@panagiotis7946

7 ай бұрын

Athens lost the war from the pandemic at the very beginning half the population died or marched as well as the great figure of Pericles of the experienced Athenian crews of the ships, almost 60% died That's where the war was lost

Thank you!

Please more videos. I love these

The Peloponnesian War, an ever-present reminder of the pitfalls of grand ambitions and hubris, is entrenched in the annals of history. Allured by his own skillful tactics and charismatic charm, Alcibiades led the Athenian fleet into the Sicilian Expedition, embodying the Icarus myth. Herein lies a reverberating warning: empires blinded by their power all too often ignore telling portents. Such was the case for Athens in Sicily - similar to that of Achaemenids in Greece or Soviets in Afghanistan - driven onward despite history's subtle murmurs. Through Syracuse's heroes, Sparta's adversaries, and Alcibiades' own risings and fallings; we read of imperiousness, betrayal and ultimately the downfall of greatness itself. Thucydides repeatedly reminded us that heeding not these warnings invites similar fates: what has been will come around again "not in exactly the same form but following predictable lines."

@panagiotis7946

7 ай бұрын

athena did not have an empire what athena tried was the union of the greek cities for better protection of the greek world from the persian danger

The Sicilian expedition really illustrates the downsides of having a strong reputation as an imperialistic power. Plenty of Sicilian cities disliked Syracuse and might have allied with Athens if it hadn't been so obvious that Athens meant to conquer the entire island. On a different subject, I think we can safely say that the dumbest man in the entire story was the soothsayer who thought it was a good idea to have an army desperate to retreat just sit on its hands for an entire month.

Interesting as per usual from this channel.

This Peloponnesian War is one of your best series!

Excellent video Watched it 3x A great story every expeditionary force commanders should know. Keep your lines of retreat open. Have an exit policy, control the politics (1940, Dunkirk)

'There is nothing so terrible as a battle lost, except a battle won.' - Sir Arthur Wellesly.

Delian League: “We suffered the greatest defeat in Antiquity.” Gaius Terentius Varro: “Hold my wine.”

I never thought about it before, but it is a strange twist of fate that the exact same locale that was the turning point of the Peloponnesian Wars was the same place the Punic Wars started. One ended Athens, the other Carthage.

Your aerial visuals during the lecture masterly inable understanding !!!!

Bruh all these walls make Caesars' wall game look weak.

I, personally, consider the Sicilian Expedition to have been as big of a disaster for Athens as the battle of Stalingrad was for Nazi Germany, if not a bigger disaster.

@generalhorse493

8 ай бұрын

I think the Nazis made an equally big disaster, but arguably that was Barbarossa, not Stalingrad. Stalingrad was a continuation of the mess that the Nazis got themselves into, Barbarossa was a unmitigated disaster that ended their trade deal with the Soviets that was giving them much needed oil, opened a second front requiring them to dedicate most of their resources where they hadn't to previously, they did almost no intelligence gathering or strategic planning beforehand, assumed their enemy would just collapse in on themselves in several weeks, they ignored their logistics despite going into the biggest land empire in human history, assumed they would capture the railway system intact, and had fewer planes ready for the invasion than at the start of the Battle of Britain, and in 4 months of combat all they had to show for it was losing 75-80% of their panzers and 1 million men, more men than America and Britain lost during the entire war.

Many years ago I read a book by Peter Green about Alcibiades and the Sicilian Expedition. It was a good book that taught me a lot.

This was a case of “everything that could go wrong, DID go wrong.” What a clusterf***.

Thank you

Awesome 👏

Imagine being in the last trireme out of Syracuse listening to "Fortunate Son"

This was a pleasant surprise this morning, now I can have a good 👍

Fascinating the Syracuse flag is same as Isle of Man. And it’s not a coincidence but direct connection

I see a similarity to the war of germany against russia in second world war. In both cases, a land choose to wage another war to get ressources instead of finishing their arch enemy first. In both cases probably the countrys could not win their first war - germany could not invade england and athen could not invade sparta - so they tried a gamble in another war - theater to gain more ressources for the first war.

You should cover xenophon and the March of the ten thousand

@franciscovelasco5422

8 ай бұрын

It’s on patreon

9:21 Heavily armored light troops. Also known as bipolar army.

There is a saying in swahili that says.....mtaka yote hukosa yote.Athenians were a perfect example

Wow that’s crazy to imagine athens controlling Sicily and Carthage and eventually clashing with rome

Will there ever be a 1st Punic War series or a serious on the Punic Sicilian wars with this level of detail?

I still think they need to make a movie on Alcibiades' life. Maybe get Armando Iannucci to direct it.

Shout out to my Sicilian Vikings ~ Y Haplogroup I1

I am just so confused as to why both sides would leave the harbor that open!! How could both sides move that freely thru there

Mad Punic wars is exclusive for members and it was me who asked 😢

I have subscribed to this channel since the beginning. but this channel has changed to prioritize membership. I try to support this channel as much as I can by viewing and not skipping ads, but that doesn't mean anything. When the pacific war series was no longer free it made me a little disappointed, and realized that "you don't support a channel if you don't pay", "you don't support a channel if you are poor". But that's how things are now, thank you for providing information about history so far.

@KingsandGenerals

8 ай бұрын

We never said anything like that. The goal is to keep the production going. Everyone still gets at least 3 free videos per week.

@JamesYork-jy2tl

8 ай бұрын

@@KingsandGenerals the thing is it’s early access tell your subs that they think they never gonna watch them

Lol we get early access for a video we alr have access to in members only vids

@user-nl4mm4gd8q

8 ай бұрын

Do you want to talk about kurdistan?☺️

HAve to feel sorry for Nikius, he really didn't deserve that.

Whod've'thunk that ancient Sicily would have a Japanese sword. Katana wtf.

When will the HBO version come out

@BigBossXCV

8 ай бұрын

With every character black and gay?

@willfungusman8666

8 ай бұрын

@@BigBossXCV Jo every character is trans with 3 b holes

What Rome 2 mods were used?

Quick animation mistake at 7:11, someone’s foot is sticking through their shield

"I said, you wouldn't have had much fun In Sicily, mr. Alcibiades"

Syracusan celebrated with an opera invented for the occasion: " Etnee ", but unfortunately it has been lost.

Wise words by Herodotus of Halicarnasus at the very end. Millenia have passed and technology has advanced, but human nature has not changed all that much.

How they didn't name that expedition "The Walling Contest" is beyond me.

Lamachus definitely had the best plan of attack.

RELEASE THE PUNIC WARS SERIES TO NON MEMBERS PLEASE🙏

I wrote a screenplay on Alcibiades

Murphy's law: military expedition edition

"while his counterpart ATHENAgorus considered fear of the ATHENians to be unsound" SUS

I think Fortnite took some inspiration from the constant walls being built to block other walls from being built.

dale videos de la segunda guerra mundial nuevos

So there were about 80.000 Greeks fighting in Sicily 😭

7:50

Wait i dont get it, according to the numbers given, athens had around 15 thousand men. The casualties however, are at over 40.000. ks this counting sailors too or is it simply reinforcements that weren't mentioned?

The similarities between this battle and the Battle of Dyracchium are too obvious to ignore.....

Athens got beat in many reasons: 1) Syracuse was having enough of Athenians aiding their rivals. 2) Peloponnesian League are more than happy to help Syracuse. 3) Athenian commanders were the gloryhound kind. 4) The Athenian naval supremacy were useless.

14:14 this is why you bring the best soothsayers, not some half assed soothsayer wannabes who bullshits you.... could've ran away under the cover of eclipse....

@kingsandGeneral we need some new ottoman videos and Mongol videos For example the Ottoman 2nd siege of vienna up till now that haven't been cover on a video and how the Ottoman empire took over Crimea

@user-nl4mm4gd8q

8 ай бұрын

Do you want to talk about kurdistan?☺️

@cagdas135

8 ай бұрын

@@user-nl4mm4gd8q Do you want to talk about salad?

Let me send you guys my screenplay on Alcibiades. The first season is already written.

*"Yo K&G"* 👋👋 *Can We Get A Video On The Cushites Of the Horn of Africa* Its truly an ancient and rivh historical region From the Land of Punt, to macrobia to axumites and Would definitely live to see a more in depth description of the horn of africa

@mauriceetal1426

8 ай бұрын

Is the horn the bottom or top?

@maddogbasil

8 ай бұрын

​@@mauriceetal1426its in the north east Next door to arabia

alcibiades was a little two faced in his deals with boths sides..the supreme politican perhaps? [winks] but loving the series :)

O wisdom-loving Athens! Why let clumsy Alcibiades fool you!? 🦉