With respect to Brexit Labour is almost as guilty as the Tories, utterly disgusting

I was very young when the first Iron Curtain descended upon the Continent of Europe. Now, in my grey hairs I am trapped behind our own Iron Curtain.

While it would not be freedom of movement, it would make younger people aware of what has been lost (and what they lost with the end of the FoM). I think the fear is that, becoming aware of FoM, there would be mounting pressure to walk back from Brexit.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

Correct.

@franklamosa374

2 ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge The Brexiters really need to study Macbeth. You can gain the crown, but if you do it by hook and crook, it can also be done to you (and you become paranoid). Yes, their campaign of deceit came out on top, but, they can never rest, because their prize can easily be taken away from them.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

@@franklamosa374 Very true. The Brexiteers may hope that "What's done cannot be undone" and for their place in history that is assuredly so. But they have even more assuredly "eaten of the insane root that takes the reason prisoner". We must tell them "Get thee gone, tomorrow we'll hear ourselves again."

It's a prison for me. I'm not young. Why on earth do people live in a fiction of what young people aspire to and what people not classed as young aspire to. My life was building up to living in the EU and taking my mother. My business was with the EU and I would be there but the transition period coincided with covid and relocating then was impossible so time ran out. I suffer from terrible depression which I do not get when working travelling or living in the EU. The lack of freedom of movement is a disaster to me. The idea that older people are set in their ways and in a rut of a life that does not need to be helped or to change and that young people are somehow embarking ambitiously into a world where they are more likely to thrive and be prepared to uproot, is in my experience if anything a reversal of reality. Young people are often closely allied to roots and friends and family and want a gap year and nothing more... Rules based on age suck. Obviously I wouldn't want to deny freedom of movement to anyone just because I can't have it but the notion that it is of more benefit to people under 35 than people over it is a joke. It could not be further from the truth. No age defines or describes personality in any case. In truth age is a fiction based on a geological phenomenon. People just want to live better lives and discrimination is dreadful.

@theultimatereductionist7592

2 ай бұрын

To Brexiters (not you, Rich): Stop pretending government hasn't Brexited. Only a SHITHEAD thinks UK hasn't Brexited. You got ALL these WONDERFUL new restrictions on MOVEMENT across borders JUST LIKE YOU BREXITERS ASKED FOR. The ONLY Separatists whom I truly respect, who deserve respect, are ABSOLUTE ANARCHISTS. And I don't agree with Anarchy as being the optimal situation. Government should be FORCED to SERVE EVERYONE EQUALLY (since we were all FORCED into existence by our breeders and government did NOTHING to stop it) but NEVER PUNISH ANYONE.

The people against FOM always forget that it works both ways, so for example this working class kid from Manchester was able to move to Europe and build a life that I couldn't have in the UK, and now my kids have opportunities I couldn't dream of. This is why the Tories wanted to get rid of FOM; they wanted a captive workforce.

@Lucid.dreamer

2 ай бұрын

The "tories" campaigned to REMAIN in the EU. The UK ELECTORATE sacked it.

@peterclareburt4594

Ай бұрын

Yes but very few from the UK used FoM. And it looks like the ratio of EU to UK using FoM was about 6 to 1.

@Korschtal

Ай бұрын

@@peterclareburt4594 And now they can't. Because someone persuaded them that people with doctor's degrees were taking their service jobs. Well played there.

@Lucid.dreamer

Ай бұрын

@@Korschtal you speak from a place of total ignorance. The UK electorate faced the effects of wage surpression and accommodation prices. Nobody had to "persuade" us. It was very clear.

@Korschtal

Ай бұрын

​@@Lucid.dreamer Some of us took the opportunities to get out of that cycle. Opportunities which you voted to lose.

Don't look for rationale in Labour's EU position - there is none. They're just out of their depth, fearful of taking a lead on all but very specific minor points of convergence. The biggest paradoxes are 1) that about 65% of Labour voters and members wanted to remain (and they know it) and 2) Sir K doesn't give a toss about upsetting them.

Our place is firmly in europe. We have to stop thinking we are exceptional. Just try to be equal with our eurpean cousins. Our young deserve better than our isolationist instincts.

@dantownsend4246

2 ай бұрын

United Kingdom never has and never will consider itself as being equal. Especially with European foreigners .

@noelfleming3567

2 ай бұрын

That's d problem 😂

@theultimatereductionist7592

2 ай бұрын

@@dantownsend4246 If Brits are free to leave the EU without being shamed and humiliated and called traitors without being forced to physically move from where they were born, then Brits are free to leave the stupid childish monarchy and are free to overthrow the nation/the country & free Julian Assange without being shamed and humiliated and called traitors without being forced to physically move from where they were born. It is called LOGICAL CONSISTENCY: either ALL separatism movements are justified or NONE is. The INFINITE hypocrisy of nationalists to complain or ridicule or insult European collectivists who wish to remain with the EU. If you get to separate from the EU without physically moving, then anyone in the UK is allowed to break free of stupid unelected monarchy and form THEIR own separate province, without physically moving. I respect Sovereign Citizens and Anarchists who voted for or supported Brexit, but NOT hypocritical nationalists. And ZERO respect for Brexiters who don't take Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) seriously. You are free to Brexit, but you must be forced to live in a bubble and not force YOUR CO2 emissions onto anyone else. I remember back in 2011 when Greeks rose up against European banksters that THAT was the motivation for Brexit: to prevent banksters in Europe forcing austerity onto citizens. That was what Brexiters feared. So, did that happen? Did Brexit prevent massive austerity caused by European bankers or not? A so-called "criminal" of one country is the hero/patriot of another.

@Purple_flower09

2 ай бұрын

​​​@@dantownsend4246 I'm sure it's a bit more complicated than that. For a start the UK is four nations and different attitudes and beliefs will tend to be stronger in some than others. I'm Scottish and I don't believe that Scots in general consider themselves superior to people in EU countries. I might be flattering myself but it doesn't feel like that. The Welsh? A lot of them at first didn't want devolution. The Welsh are not generally thought of as being above themselves. So is it all the fault of the English? Well no. We tend to throw around these generalisations. Is Europe not just stuffed full of amazing and special countries and cultures? I'm rambling here, but your pithy remark just doesn't stand for me. It's too stark and confident. The real world is always more complicated than we like to think. Will the UK ever apply to join? Right now I think probably not. If the journey wasn't so long and hard it might be possible to get most people on the bus. But it would be incredibly long and tough, and that's a hard sell.

Is it not about time for people in Britain to make up their mind whether they want to be part of the European Project or not. There is still a lot of anti European attitude in GB and if there is a particular interest expressed it is to gain a particular benefit. Never about contributing something.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

Correct.

@Purple_flower09

2 ай бұрын

​@@JohnStevens-gp7ge we're at an early stage.

@Mozart69938

2 ай бұрын

The EU should leave them alone. They enjoy their exceptionalism.

Brain drains are unfortunate, but real enough in lots of countries, with or without Brexit. It's the economy...

@uweinhamburg

2 ай бұрын

As long as the UK was on the gaining side, nobody really cared about it.

The UK : A prison now post brexit for us all.

@dantownsend4246

2 ай бұрын

But it’s now freedom island. Unshackled . free of chains. Apparently now world and global leading

Wait everyone, wait for a year or two and they (the party in charge) will create some special FoM with India or China to stop the EU from offerring the UK any further FoM proposal.

@Mozart69938

2 ай бұрын

Free movement in China ?

Thank you, a good talk.

And an early death for the Rest of us, Poverty. Re-Join Now

@terryj50

2 ай бұрын

get skills and get a job then you wont be in poverty.

Palpable sense of extreme frustration. If the under 30s were given their own mini vote in this issue there isn’t much doubt how it would turn out. Maybe the Commission’s timing was not the best.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

Curiously, if the rumours that the UK government were angling for some deal in this area from the Commission over the past few months are true, the timing was dictated by an attempt to help Sunak ahead of the election. This accommodating attitude towards member state governments is a regular feature of Commission conduct and perhaps it spilled over in this case despite the fact the UK is no longer in the EU. It was also probably, as Brendan says, directed at the Labour Party, in the hope they might be emboldened to take at least one pro-EU position ahead of the election and thus have a mandate. There is no doubting the disappointment in Brussels at how this has been received by both UK parties.

Who has said they would not support it if the UK were serious about rejoining as fully committed members?

We need a both/and not an either/or approach. Already we have seen European standards continue to be accepted, as well as rejoining Horizon, the Windsor framework for the Northern Ireland protocol and negotiations over Gibraltar joining Schengen. Likewise, polls indicate that 68% of the UK public supports freedom of movement throughout CANZUK, which would tend to result in net migration from the UK to these wealthier countries (kith and kin Old Commonwealth (with the exception of 8 million increasingly bilingual and multilingual French Canadians). We had this free movement until 1983 with these countries and it is entirely compatible with EU membership. Portugal has free movement with Brazil and is working towards extending it to the other 6 Portuguese-speaking countries. Spain has free movement with the Hispanic countries of Latin America, and of course, the Irish Republic continues to enjoy free movement with the UK. At the same time we should aim for over-arching negotiations with EFTA, the EEA and the EU. We should rejoin Euroatom.

I was hoping for a more substantive discussion, possibly one that explored the contents of the proposal but instead here is another video of people agreeing with each other like the other brexiteer/remainer discussions on KZread.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

What aspects of the matter do you wish to be more extensively explored? As to the contents of the proposals we included them all, for persons under 30, going from the EU to the UK or from the UK to one only EU country for up to 4 years. That is all there is at this stage.

@ocanica3184

2 ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge There are several issues presented in the proposal I'd like the video to discuss. Firstly, the open-ended nature of the proposal "Mobility would not be purpose-bound". The parity of Tuition fees. The removal of the NHS surcharge. The possibility, mentioned by some, of adding family to your application. The discussion of whether this is an EU competency as the are a litany of bi-lateral agreements with other nations or would this be exclusively bound to the UK, etc. I understand that this is the first volley by the Commission but I'm surprised by the nature of the proposal, it makes me wonder if it was designed to fail.

@brendandonnelly1853

2 ай бұрын

I doubt if it was designed to fail. But it certainly reflected the interests of the EU member states, not those of the UK. That’s the price of Brexit.

@ocanica3184

2 ай бұрын

@@brendandonnelly1853 And this is exactly the type of discourse I'm trying to avoid but thank you for your contribution. I'll leave you guys at it.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

@@ocanica3184 Is your point that the proposal with regard to the details you cite is going beyond EU competences and thus any measure dealing with the subject of movement of citizens can only be achieved by bilateral agreements between the UK and individual EU member states? If so, it is I who am surprised since you are certainly mistaken. As Brendan says in the piece British hopes that Brexit will resurrect pre EEC bilateralism in our dealings with EU member states is a delusion.

A mix-feeling proposal from the EU. On one hand the idea is to give young people an idea of what they are missing to encourage them to fight for a return to the EU. On the other hand, it is about, for them to construct their future in Europe and then, after a few years, to deprive them of it (Must return to the UK or change nationality). One thing is sadly true I think. The UK, once a beacon for openness, prosperity and FoM is now an obscurantist, aging country very few young Europeans are dreaming of. The reasons you give for Starmer to be against the FoM and a join-application ring very true (afraid to scare away Red wall voters) although in my opinion, it is an utter stupidity (aka: to stop EU citizens - mostly white Christian Europeans and replace them with faraway coloured people with a totally different culture). Is Starmer dream for the UK for it to become an African or Asian country? Brendan Donnelly is right: a global approach (a join application to the EU) is far better than a patchwork of bi-lateral agreements that the EU hate (Refer to Swiss agreements the EU is trying to kill). BUT, anyways nothing will happen until BOTH Labour and the second most important UK party (Is i still the Tory party?) unequivocally support joining the EU. So alas for you, it is a very remote perspective (Not ONE UK party supports a join application°. Here, in the EU, we don't really care but we are not prepared to make ANY SORT of exception, waiver, reduction: the full admission ticket, no less.

Unless there is a major shift of opinion in the UK they should not be “offered” anything. They simply don’t want it. Sadly the people who do want it have to suffer because of their government.

It’s a shame for young British people. But unfortunately the UK is not ready for such a program. Nationalism still rules. The EU should propose this program to countries who will soon join the EU.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

They will. Indeed the UK suggestion is based on a model being employed for enlargement.

@peterclareburt4594

Ай бұрын

But youth mobility is not an EU programme. Youth mobility is a series of cultural exchange for young people of which 57 countries across the world take part. Why would the EU want to step on that set of programmes to create something that only selected adjacent countries can take part of. This explains exactly what is wrong with the EU. It's a form of prejudice. You can fly almost anywhere in the world in 24 hours. Why would proximity be a factor for a series of youth cultural exchange programmes. And as the UK found out FoM turned into a 6 to 1 ratio of people movement. The EU getting involved with a single non EU country would not be manageable in the way they set it out.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

Ай бұрын

@@peterclareburt4594 The 6:1 ratio is almost entirely attributable to the power of the English language which, as our post Brexit immigration patterns reveal is a universal, not uniquely EU phenomenon. EU FOM was a benefit to the UK fiscally, (in contrast to the non-EU immigration which has now so largely supplanted it.) More fundamentally, this debate is about our national identity. Is the UK a European country or is it (or should it be) a "global" one? It is easy to define what is meant by the former: it has at least 2000 years of shared history and geographical reality behind it. But Brexiteers do not spell out what they mean by the latter, arising as it does from the last c 200 years of our history, and what they seek thereby as an alternative national identity, especially with regard to reciprocity in the specific case of FOM. So you are right this is about the validity of a European prejudice. But this implies inexorably that Brexiteers must have a non-European prejudice (for such is, given our history and geography, even an insistence upon equality of valuation). The case for that shift has not been made imv, and making it, as it must be made, if it is to succeed, in today's world of rapidly reversing globalisation (at least in attitudes, if not yet fully economically) is a very demanding enterprise.

@peterclareburt6123

Ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge @JohnStevens-gp7ge of course there is a European identity, and there is a huge European diaspora across the world. I identify as a European New Zealander. Up until a decade or so ago that was the choice on census forms out here, and without the New Zealander bit. Global is not an identity it is a thinking mindset. I don't subscribe to global citizen, but I do subscribe to multi culture and or multi ethnicity and have lived and worked for the last 27 years or so in over 12 countries, visited many more. But people also break down bigger categories to smaller ones. E g. European breaks down to Russian, French, Spanish, British, and they in turn break down to smaller sets. The telling point is if you are in a foreign country and someone asks where you are from. I would say New Zealand, I have heard people say they are from France, Spain etc. I have never heard anyone say, I am from the EU. Or heard anyone say they are European ( in this context,) because though born in NZ for years, most of my life I have identified as European on a number of official forms. Basically 100% of my great grandparents came from the UK and Ireland. Also the immigration issue when the reciprocal situation is out of kilter has happened before. i.e. the 1962 Commonwealth Immigration Act. The current non EU influx is due to need as the Uk has lost more than 2.6 million people from the active worklist. EU citizens could have come and quite a few did. But the EU is also experiencing worker shortage. Don't forget that there are still 15 countries that have the UK king as head of state, even though these countries are totally independent. And it includes Canada, Australia and New Zealand and some smaller countries, oh and also the UK. This will of course change going forward, but it identifies a global perspective that no other EU country has. No the UK does not have a non-eu prejudice. It is still taking people from any country now that it has a level playing field. This has long been the case. Perhaps it has a few special opportunities for Commonwealth countries, but that is slight. And it pretty much allows anyone to come in on a 6 month tourist visa.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

Ай бұрын

@@peterclareburt6123 This is not about tourists it is about identity. And I agree "global" is not an identity, but a mindset (an elegant formulation of yours). So the pro-Brexit slogan seeking a "Global not a European Britain" always struck me, at the very least, as requiring considerable explanation (which has not been forthcoming from Brexiteers). Our experience of hearing people call themselves European is vastly different. The sense of shared European identity, which adds to, not diminishes French, German, etc identities, is the fastest growing emotion across the contemporary EU (as even a cursory look at the current defence, immigration and climate change debates would reveal) and in several non-EU European countries (most notably Ukraine, where daily tens and often hundreds die for it). Britain, though pre-eminent, is not alone in its historic global reach. Spain, for example (my wife is Spanish and I spend much time there) also has an enormous historic cultural (notably religious) Hispanosphere, in South America and the Philippines. one with a rapidly growing impact upon North America, which is eroding the US status as a fully Anglosphere country. You understandably believe the UK should see its future in the Anglosphere, by which I take it, (perhaps mistakenly?) you mean the US, Canada, Australia and your own country. I recognise the powerful emotional appeal of this notion. But I regret rationally, the problems in making it practically viable are very grave. Leaving aside the dominant weight and likely evolution of the US, which would make such an arrangement radically different from the collegial confederation of several more or less equal powers, alongside smaller partners that is the EU (with the UK one of the largest and most powerful players at the table), we are fundamentally a different sort of society to those of the US, Canada, Australia and your own country. Ours is not a society built, more or less entirely by relatively very recent immigration (NZ is somewhat of an outlier in that you retained and recognised your indigenous native people, more substantially than the others, but not so much as to alter the point materially). The UK, by contrast, is a deeply rooted and very ancient society, like other societies in Europe. Rooted in a manner which renders even current, still relatively modest, though rapid immigration a serious, perhaps insurmountable challenge to the nature of its identity. Something even more so, if the definition of this Anglosphere is extended to include the rest of the Commonwealth. But I doubt I shall persuade you, anymore than you me, nor is such really my intention, I merely wish to have you understand the pro-EU case.

fmo for all not band and bankers ect

Brexit delivered - around 90k Europeans leave the UK per annum.

So do many Brits, but sadly more were "conned" into believing "the grass was greener etc". ALL are now paying the price of this horrendous mistake. With regard to re-joining. There is very little chance if any of that happening. All 27 members would have to agree on this, and many have said they would not support it. Since Brexit, the Bloc has moved on, whereas Britain simply has not !

to me if you dont have the skills to move you should not be able to I am japanese and I would not want people in my country with no skills to offer.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

But is not Japan the most closed in terms of migration and the most demographically challenged of the G7 economies? I understand the reasons for such a policy, and the concomitant faith in robotics is impressive, if fraught with risks, but your situation, priorities and experience surely cannot be compared to that of the UK, let alone the EU as a unit, or, for that matter the US.

@terryj50

2 ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge you only say that as you have no skills to offer anyone. People like you always want to move and claim benefits, I believe that if you move country you should have something to offer and contribute not take out.

@terryj50

2 ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Japan our young dont cry that we dont have FOM our young get the skills and move overseas on merit it seems since I have lived in the uk they only people who cry here they are locked on an island are the same ones who claim to be smart. if you are smart you can move on a thing called a visa like we do. it would suggest to me that you are not smart.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

@@terryj50 But young Japanese are the least internationally mobile for study or employment of any G7 country by quite a margin. You are an exception amongst your countrymen. And Japan's geopolitical situation is quite different from the UK, (though we are both islands with a genius for gardening, offshore continental blocks). I sympathise that your continental neighbour (from whom you have derived much culture, I still cherish memories of the beauty of Nara) is the looming and probably hostile China. Our continental neighbour (from whom we have derived much culture) is the now very benign Europe (at least until the borders of Ukraine and Belarus.)

@terryj50

2 ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge we don’t travel as much as we love our country. People in the uk hate your country. You were only mobile because you were in the eu and now you’re out of it you won’t leave but not because you don’t want to leave because you don’t have the skills to leave. Your people will cry because you’re out of the eu. In Japan too we have to pay upfront for uni so it’s harder for people to go. In the uk you only pay for uni when you get a job. If your people really want to leave they could get the degree and work a few years to get the skills and leave never having to pay back the uni degree. In Japan we don’t have that luxury. But for us again we would usually stay in our country. I will also go back on day. Not because I don’t like the uk but I am beginning to not like the people especially remainers. I find the remainers to be the worst people on earth. You all seem so entitled you lost the eu get over it. In the 6 years the uk has been out you could have done 2 degree and got the skills to leave but rather than do that you cry daily. The people here would rather be on benefits and out of work crying that they are not in the eu than do something about it. You seem to hate any foreign person who is not white and from the eu.

The UK electorate will never agree to the free movement of people. This is what you appear to forget.

@Korschtal

2 ай бұрын

What people against Freedom of Movement describe, isn't generally the legal reality, so what they are rejecting doesn't exist.

@Lucid.dreamer

2 ай бұрын

@@Korschtal These two want EU FoM. I'm telling them and you, the UK electorate rejected it. I don't care about "legalities". We are not members of the EU and we never will be, so it is totally irrelevant.

@Lucid.dreamer

2 ай бұрын

@@Korschtal News flash... The UK sacked the EU. We are never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to seek EU membership. Ever.

@Korschtal

2 ай бұрын

@@Lucid.dreamer A pretty passionate response. If only you were as passionate about understanding what it was you thought you were rejecting.

@Korschtal

2 ай бұрын

@@Lucid.dreamer "We are not members of the EU and we never will be" That's possibly for the best: it's becoming clear that most people in the UK never understood what the EU is.

Sheesh. ‘A prison?’ is your tagline for the video? Not complicated … it’s called a ‘passport.’ Americans have to do it without bitching. Try it sometime.

@dantownsend4246

2 ай бұрын

Showing a passport at European borders is still a big shock to Brits. They will “ acclimatize “ in time. I’m Canadian and have to show my passport to US border control not a hardship.

@russmarkham2197

2 ай бұрын

It isn't just about tourism. It's about work opportunities in the EU for young people. You need a work permit not just a passport

@JohnnyinMN

2 ай бұрын

@@dantownsend4246Has Canada got something yet to eliminate physical passports - like the US EDLs? We are just starting and MN was one of the first. Yea!

@JohnnyinMN

2 ай бұрын

@@russmarkham2197And so does all third countries. Your point?

@adampeckham8541

2 ай бұрын

​@@JohnnyinMNI think the point is that isn't the same as reciprocal freedom of movement. Which is ironic when I know quite a few people that voted for this to then realise their dream of moving to Spain is a lot harder 😂

Didn’t they all go to Uni? They can fill out a form, it’s a small price to pay for democracy.

@adampeckham8541

2 ай бұрын

I look forward to seeing your support for Scottish Independence in the future. Cos ya know "Sovereignty"

No! 🇪🇺🇳🇱

🤣 So how many 100's of trips /year has the average "young person" lost out on then ? How easy is the paperwork to travel to say the USA or Australia ? No wander Remainers are what they are.........they are even stumped by this simple arrangement. Hence they need someone to tell them what to do all the time, like being a well trained dog.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

Ай бұрын

This is not fundamentally about travel, or even young people: It is about settling, studying, starting a business, retiring. It is about living, in the fullest sense, across a whole continental space, not just in one country. The loss of these rights through Brexit is the greatest restriction of freedom for UK citizens since WW2.

@user-eu4zy6rm3l

Ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge you dont need to travel daily/weekly to do any of those things. Just move wherever, set up home and study, or open your business, or retire. You try to make it sound like someone has taken away your local bus.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

Ай бұрын

@@user-eu4zy6rm3l No, Brexit has taken away the right to go as I please and do as I please as a native citizen across an entire continent and in the largest integrated market economy in the world. That you think this resembles a bus pass does you no credit.

@user-eu4zy6rm3l

Ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge what absolute rubbish. If you cant EASILY get yourself to your beloved EU, then I can only assume you are too young to travel alone anyway ?

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

Ай бұрын

@@user-eu4zy6rm3l To reiterate, this is about far more than travel. It is, like the whole European issue, fundamentally a matter of identity. Something upon which your more cerebral Brexiteer comrades tend at least to agree.

Overall 57 countries around the world subscribe to various youth mobility schemes. Normally each of these countries will have reciprocal arrangements with 8 to 12 other countries and this works to ensure numerical reciprocity. These are condidered cultural exchanges and normally are a 1 to 2 year cultural exchange. There are several EU member countries involved in these programmes, but obviously the EU members don't need such schemes between us themselves and the UK is in a position where it needs to include several EU countries in their scheme. But a whole EU arrangement is not appropriate for three reasons. (1) The EU is not a cultural entity (2) the size the of the EU is huge compared to the UK and numerical reciprocity would not be possible. This was a key problem with UK membership where the FoM ratio was about 6 to 1. (3) The 4 year timeframe the EU proposed is much longer thsn most if these cultural exchanged, more like a working visa, so its kind of a misuse of the programme.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

Ай бұрын

But Europeans do regard the EU as a cultural entity. Are you suggesting there is no such thing as European civilisation? And that the UK is no a part of that?

@peterclareburt4594

Ай бұрын

@@JohnStevens-gp7ge of course there is a European identity, it is just not owned by the EU. In a census I identify as a European, even though I live in NZ. My great grandparents, all come from the UK or Ireland. Moscow and St Petersburg are European. But the EU has not participated in these youth mobility schemes. That has been left up to, member nations, France, Spain, Germany, etc. there is a specific set of things that the EU leave up to member nations and this is one of them. If this was a new initiative surely they would announced this in the context of a number of non EU countries, e.g. Canada, Singapore, Japan and any other countries. Perhaps they should talk to the Commonwealth. It is just not appropriate for the EU to get involved.

What is all the rest of us people all Died, I want my freedom of Movement back and My EU rights back. Re-Join Now.

They still haven't moved the UK further away from Europe 🌍 If they can't move the UK away. Then dam we will still have to talk to other European countries.

The Eu is a prison for old and young alike.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

How so?

@amcc5887

2 ай бұрын

Huh 🙄🙄🙄🙈🙈🙈

@snowman2970

2 ай бұрын

Black is white, up is down and good is bad for delusional Brexit supporters?

@gloin10

Ай бұрын

"The Eu is a prison for old and young alike"? You really don't get out very often, do you? Back in reality, EVERY citizen of the EU/EEA has the right to live, work, study, fall in love, marry, form a family, buy property and retire, as a legal right, in 30 member states of the EU/EEA. There are restrictions applying to the right of Freedom of Movement of People in the 31st, Liechtenstein, because it has a population of less than 40,000. As open prisons go, that is really something!

@snowman2970

Ай бұрын

@@gloin10 I find it’s not worth my time replying to idiots.🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺

I voted for Brexit. I'm still waiting for the government to deliver it.

@seriousoldman8997

2 ай бұрын

What is it then. Do tell.

@Anri6547

2 ай бұрын

@@seriousoldman8997he is waiting for his unicorns 🦄 😂😂

@oskarh5060

2 ай бұрын

Brexit has been delivered. What you're waiting for are the promised benefits. You're going to be waiting for a long while, since there are none. At least none that make up for the downsides.

@dwdei8815

2 ай бұрын

Try and sell something to the EU. Try and perform in a music gig in Paris. Try staffing a care home. You'll find out that the Brexit you voted for is very much a real and dismal thing. It is real, it has happened and it wrecks lives.

@antoniotorcoli5740

2 ай бұрын

​​​​​​@@Anri6547strange. In the EU nobody talks about Brexit anymore. For us it has been delivered. And we are fine with that. Even if most of us regret it. But a decent divorce is much better that a bad marriage. I am divorced twice and I know what I am talking about. Honestly , I do not give a damn about my previous wives anymore, even if I know they are still complaining about me and blaming me for their miseries.

Elitist B/S.

Seems to me the UK has to develop the idea that rejoining would be good idea. Once there is established general support then the UK could propose rejoining. I cannot see the EU wanting continual attemptes from the UK to cherrypick aspects of a relationship with the EU. While Starmer wants to follow rather than lead opinion, and that opinion is expressed most by the right wing media, rejoin will remain a dream, I think. Starmer has shown, with his rejection of this latest idea, his true colours. I think it is fanciful that the UK can rejoin on the quiet while having a public stance against rejoining. Starmer is so busy following the Brexiteers that he has become effectively one of them. And we have more of the same as seen since before 2016. The right wanting Brexit and Labour(the left) too timid to disagree, so creating that idea that all the UK is pro-Brexit.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

Correct.

@Purple_flower09

2 ай бұрын

​@@JohnStevens-gp7ge there is a lot to disagree with there. To me the left includes the trades unions, many of whose leaders were pro Brexit. MPs in both Labour and Tory parties were mostly against Brexit. They all ended up voting for it because of the weakness of Cameron and the insanity of the referendum.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

@@Purple_flower09 I think the personal (ambiguous, passive, but fundamentally hostile to the EU role of Corbyn will be judged by historians as significant in the outcome of the referendum. Now ironically the greatest pressure on Starmer to re-engage with the EU is coming from substantial elements of the Labour Left widely branded "Corbynista" which includes such trade unionists.

@Purple_flower09

2 ай бұрын

​@@JohnStevens-gp7ge yes Corbyn was essentially anti EU as many on the further left were. His failure to have a clear position on EU membership in a general election that was basically about exactly that was the result of him being totally out of step with Labour MPs who were mostly pro EU centrists. I expect very little of Starmer but to be fair he's going to be in a very difficult position when Labour take over. The Tories are focused on poisoning the ground for Labour and are only going through the motions of a campaign for the election.

@JohnStevens-gp7ge

2 ай бұрын

@@Purple_flower09 Correct. A very large Labour majority might also store up problems of dissent for Starmer, once the going gets tough.