A member of my family always told me years ago "it won't be long until the government wants to put cameras in your home" They did not need to, we put them there ourselves

@johnjones3159

3 жыл бұрын

We put them in our pockets

@Fallen5321

3 жыл бұрын

What?? lol

@fortiond3830

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. So Huxley got it right. We've been groomed to love our slavery.

@lisahudson3318

3 жыл бұрын

I don't know why they are arguing ..they are both correct if you emerge the two books together

@YT313YT

3 жыл бұрын

@@fortiond3830 --Precisely... Humans are so easily molded.

When i'm at work its like "1984", when i'm at home its "Brave New World".

@morningstar9233

6 жыл бұрын

only without the sex

@Exsugarbabe1

4 жыл бұрын

Do you work in a call centre by any chance?

@darrekworkman8685

4 жыл бұрын

It sounds like your bragging about how much of a 'freak' for sex you have for a wife.

@gerardmulder7656

4 жыл бұрын

You lucky devil :-)

@maxmeeks9910

4 жыл бұрын

www.amazon.com/Are-American-Zombies-Max-Meeks/dp/1519437412/ref=sr_1_2?crid=123X4ASMDVLA0&keywords=we+are+the+american+zombies&qid=1564177159&s=gateway&sprefix=we+are+the+ameri%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-2

“Maybe this world is another planet’s hell.” ― Aldous Huxley

@rachelgebhardt449

3 жыл бұрын

Its definitely beginning to feel that way.

@originaldaughterofabyayala6678

3 жыл бұрын

To me it definitely is

@cptsuperstraight6924

3 жыл бұрын

It only takes a few powerful demons to make a hell.

@mathieuvanleeuwen7127

3 жыл бұрын

Something like that for sure !

@nnovo3122

3 жыл бұрын

A subset of it is. C.S. Lewis wrote a book about it. That subset of this world finally left on a bus.

“We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn’t, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we, at least, had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares. But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell’s dark vision, there was another-slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley’s vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think. What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny ‘failed to take into account man’s almost infinite appetite for distractions’. In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” from the introduction to ‘Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business’, Neil Postman (1985)

Huxley, sees the velvet glove. Orwell, The iron fist!

@azimovist

6 жыл бұрын

The latter has been employed to initiate the former as we are now seeing in the united states. We have awoken from our pop culture,electronically induced fantasies to a horrific reality of Tolkien-esque proportions.

@user-oj6dt1ov8p

6 жыл бұрын

claudia xander щ

@donfox1036

5 жыл бұрын

Леша Егоров, in Xanadu did Kublai Khan a stately pleasure dome decree, where Alph the sacred river ran through caverns measureless to man down to a sunless sea.

@poodlesrock6552

5 жыл бұрын

@@azimovist What do you think of the quote by (the monstrous) Churchill: The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter..?

@slancer25

5 жыл бұрын

One hand for loving my girl. One for keeping her secure

Huxley and Orwell are both correct.

@poodlesrock6552

6 жыл бұрын

Derek Fuller Agree, and so was Ray Bradbury with Fahrenheit 451.

@MegaKerrigan

6 жыл бұрын

THANK YOU!!

@gerryhouska2859

6 жыл бұрын

With a dash of Kafka mixed in.

@ravynfae5786

6 жыл бұрын

Exactly

@alanhaggarty9880

6 жыл бұрын

I’ve often thought that both these novels compliment rather than conflict with each other.

Perhaps this is mentioned in the discussion, but I will copy it here. This hangs on my wall, because it perfectly describes our world. . What Orwell feared, what Huxley feared... . What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with an infinite diarrhea of empty distractions. In Orwell's 1984 people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Huxley's Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. . In short: Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.

@Thesappysongwriter

3 жыл бұрын

This is the opening from the book Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman, just incase anyone was wondering.

@pitchforkpeasant6219

3 жыл бұрын

@@Thesappysongwriter thank u.

@pitchforkpeasant6219

3 жыл бұрын

@@Thesappysongwriter guess i have the name of my next book

@pitchforkpeasant6219

3 жыл бұрын

And both are being used against us all

@mikelyoloson2743

3 жыл бұрын

I've only read brave new world and I think that that's the direction it's going more than 1984.

For those interested, I'd recommend The Iron Heel by Jack London, first published in 1907. London had a vision of the future much like Huxley and Orwell. Good read.

@junesilvermanb2979

3 жыл бұрын

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Heel

@TheYawningPrawn

3 жыл бұрын

London was a genius.

@operaforlife6551

3 жыл бұрын

THANKS, I had never heard of him, it looks to be very interesting! :D

@MariaM-ki9ei

3 жыл бұрын

Also Evgeny Zamyatin's "We" that influenced Orwell's 1984

@operaforlife6551

3 жыл бұрын

@@MariaM-ki9ei Thanks, I have read "We", I thought it was interesting but it also felt a bit hard to relate to the characters, I think it was the writing style maybe, I will probably try and read it again soon, along with The Foundation series which is great as well, and also written by a Russian :)

Man, that guy is trying way too hard to tie 1984 to Trump. He has missed what is happening around him. Amazing.

@JJONNYREPP

6 ай бұрын

Brave New World vs Nineteen Eighty-Four featuring Adam Gopnik and Will Self 5.12.23 1104am speaking as a moron... i was so looking forward to his nob and fart gags. which never manifested. as for trump - "news on a stick" or no it's as though he was manufactured to take the flack for a heap load of b.s which has been doing the rounds since the founding fathers.

War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is Strength - George Orwell, 1984

The problem about this discussion is that they work so hard to deny one another while they should be working together bringing the similarities and differences.

@TheFeyd

2 жыл бұрын

You must not understand the concept of a "debate". Here is a little hint about life. You will always learn more discussing a topic with someone who disagrees then by surrounding yourself with sycophants. Seek out those to challenge your preconceived notions; not those who reinforce it.

@hazok4351

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheFeyd I do understand the concept very much, thanks. I'm a conversation teacher and I promote debates in class all the time. And while the "traditional" form of debate is seen as the only, or more efficient way to use in order to learn about a topic, by contrasting and attacking each other, in my experience, I've noticed that a less "I'm supposed to defend my side only, regardless of what I actually think" and more collaborative approach is way more fruitful in the results in the end, not only for the learning of the topic, but also for developing social skills. I do see that the point of THIS debate is not this one, granted, and that's what I am saying; I posted because I wished it HAD been more focused on the actual similarities and differences, and less on "I'm right and you're wrong". But if you like this style, it's totally fine.

@andrewdobson813

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheFeyd Don't make a habit of thoughtlessly dismissing those you disagree with. It will never impress anybody

@smokingbrush2498

Жыл бұрын

That's the problem with these combative set-ups. The format places performance before insight. Winner takes all; while the loser is literary education. First and probably the last programme of this kind I will watch.

@andrewbarbarash3116

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, modern day China is literally both books fused together and somewhere the rest of the world is headed.

Will: *Gives thoughtful, reasoned, and provoking reasons behind Brave New World* Adam: "Yeah, but Orange Man Bad."

If you placed them both on the same timeline 1984 would be at an earlier point and Brave New World a later one, but both ultimately correct.

@secondchance6603

5 жыл бұрын

Funny, I was thinking the same thing myself...

@piratewhoisquiet

4 жыл бұрын

Well yeah, 1984 was set in, well, 1984 while Brave New World was set in the 2500s.

@BJoinedBReality

4 жыл бұрын

Doesn't Mustapha Mond mention the 9-year-war at some point at the end of _Brave New World_ ?

@BJoinedBReality

4 жыл бұрын

@@piratewhoisquiet _1984_ is set in 2019. The global elites are deep into numerology. Orwell had a family member who was part of the Trilateral Commission or the Club of Rome or the Round the Table Society or some shit like that. Through that family member, Orwell obtained inside-information about their spiderweb-pyramid-scheme plans for the world. The maths is as follows: Orwell wrote _1984_ in 1948, and published it in 1949. 1984 - 1948 = 36 and 1984 - 1949 = 35. 1984 + 35 = 2019 and 1984 + 36 = 2020.

@connieshannon7845

4 жыл бұрын

From a Shannon in Shasta Co. California, I salute and appreciate You, cousin. Slainte! Tir Na Saor! Ireland is a place, not a race, with many lessons to share with All Humanity. Never stop using your mind to produce the beauty we find in your voice, Sir, even if, and because, the words you form, WERE forced onto us by Godless Bigots and Tyrants, whilst stealing our food, charging us rent for the blessing and curse of birth, and making us support Their church. Never accept the title of "racist" for your pride in the Green, Gold and White, na Eire is a place, NOT a race. Eff Cromwell, may he be well roasted in Hell, eff the Queen, eff the King, eff the President. God Bless and keep you, praise Him for the unfathomable gift of His Son, Christ Jesus, and the knowledge that that gift means that You are already FREE!!! I Love You ALL. OnceHeaven.

Will Self is absolutely HILARIOUS in his mannerisms. He is almost a caricature of reclusive artsy brilliant author. I love how he flexes his neck before answering his first question as if he is about to go into an MMA fight

@RkristinaTay

4 жыл бұрын

He is a pompous phony. No wonder he was a heroin addict.

@sameagle988

3 жыл бұрын

@@RkristinaTay THANK YOU!

@dibdap2373

Жыл бұрын

It was pretty cringe actually.

The fact that both and such different books have amazing similarities to today's world is more terrifying than just one of them being 'right'.And maybe what both miss is the apparent subtlety of how this world could slip so apparently fast...

@patriciapacheco21

Жыл бұрын

I've learned much more with the comparison of these novels. I am so thankful for the discusion done in this style. Reading scences and passages of both books(so enriched with real actors) too! This has expanded the veiws of bth novels.

@patriciapacheco21

Жыл бұрын

The discusions , lecturers are very valuable in explaining ...so interesting. I loved the presentation.

Huxley resonates with me most because his strength is in describing a seductive secure world where we are gently & subtly throttled by a gentleman’s “velvet glove” ...

@nnovo3122

3 жыл бұрын

You must have white privilege or you're on welfare. The people bin the middle are living in 1984.

1:27:29 I've long thought that the ironic difference between 1984 and today is this: Orwell envisioned a situation where people were compelled by law to leave their telescreens on, to ensure constant monitoring by authorities. These days people "voluntarily" allow the same result by having home computers on line constantly, and carrying cell phones which track their movements and online activity 24/7.

@sirrathersplendid4825

4 жыл бұрын

Tom Ripsin - Don’t worry, it won’t be long before people are required to carry their phones at all times for ID purposes. As it is I would guess 95% of adults have mobile phones and 90% of them carry them at all times. That’s over 85% covered right there, and most of the exceptions will be in their 70s or older, so hardly a threat to notional security.

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

i recently realised that the pseudonym "George Orwell" is a very clever pun, sounding like "Jaw Jaw Well", and after looking it up i was unsurprised to discover that almost nobody makes this connection, the reason being that according to their fear they are deeply resistant to what the connection implies. i found one or two people on obscure forums pointing it out, who associated it with the common phrase in Orwell's lifetime "Jaw-Jaw", meaning "talk", suggesting that the pseudonym meant "talk well." but i think "Jaw-Jaw-Well" goes much deeper than simply playing with the parlance of his times. i see the phrase "Jaw-Jaw" in this context as signifying herbivores and carnivores, prey and predators: the first Jaw eats the plants, the second Jaw eats the first Jaw. when in the wild, this dynamic is balanced, both prey and predator are fully aware of their relative roles and thus the resultant suffering is minimal (though the phenomenon was effectively the driver of suffering and especially of fear in the evolution of life), however within humanity it took a much darker turn. the evidence suggests (though no one else seems to be willing to say it out loud) that this dynamic exists within the human species: there is a vast majority of human prey (neurotypical and autistic, the first/passive Jaw) and a small minority of human predators (psychopaths, the second, dominant Jaw). this predator/prey dynamic developed with complex communication (and thus the expanded role of empathy) such that those genetically predisposed to deception and predation would prey not on the bodies of the honest and expressive majority (which served no purpose) but instead on their minds, which they exploited at first using their empathy and their attachment to being accepted by the majority, later forming civilisations whereby fear became the dominant tool for maintainence of the Natural Order. what resulted from this was a society built around the phenomenon of the majority being kept in ignorance and denied recognition of the truth of their existence while a tiny minority held all the knowledge and doled it out to a corrupted small portion of the prey to be used as gatekeepers of the Natural Order. the majority of people, especially since civilisation, were raised into a programmed existence whereby the underlying reality of their situation is buried deep in their minds under socially/emotionally enforced psychological lock-and-key (i.e. metaphorically pushed into the earth down a Well, or a Rabbit Hole as Lewis Carrol put it). hence: the Jaw-Jaw-Well. if you really think about it, it fits in to the running themes of Orwell's final two books perfectly, as his mission seemed to be to deconstruct the lies that our societies feed us in order to maintain top-down control. it also fits in soundly with the idea of "2+2=5" (i.e. it's a fair game of chess even when you don't have thumbs, and a fair game of poker even when you don't have a head) that Winston Smith is forced to accept when he finally realises that he is alone in his understanding and can not undo the Natural Order. don't let this get you down though, 1984 was not a prediction, it was just a very dark exaggeration representing the world that the psychopaths Want, in reality the tide is turning and people are waking up fast.

@strangerinmoscow6858

2 жыл бұрын

@@sirrathersplendid4825 wow talk about predicting the Covid-19 campus passes required to be shown on compus in American colleges

@kiwitrainguy

2 жыл бұрын

I don't have cell phone. A few months ago I had to give a routine blood sample and while waiting for this in the waiting room there were six or seven people including myself. I was the only person there not glued to the screen of a cell phone. Jaw Jaw Well = George Orwell, I like it. Although I have heard a more reasonable explanation for his name. The river Orwell was near where he was living at the time he came up with this name.

@MOZAMUSIC2011

2 жыл бұрын

@@kiwitrainguy last Christmas eve, after dinner, we (family and some guestes) were sitting at the table. I was the only one not glued to a cellphone, sending and receiving messages. I felt alone.

I did enjoy this. Yes, it's not a case of 1984 or Brave New World; somehow we've got both at once.

@gillespaling7039

4 жыл бұрын

Not really. BNW is far more prescient.

@natalieanimal4063

4 жыл бұрын

I agree we have both, especially because the novels are allegories and hyperboles, not meant to be taken literally. Because of a mixture like this, I find Fahrenheit 451 the most accurate.

@stephj9378

4 жыл бұрын

i dont know how old you are, but i an a senior. I went through my whole life not paying attention until things got so bad that now we have an outright fight between the darkness and the light.played out right in fron of our faces. Dark forces are pretending to be good and denigating the fighters for the light. Like him or not, DJT is an able leader to re establish our rights, keep these demons from robbing us and harming our children. And over time we see the results of working in the light. Good trees produce good fruit. Conservatives are flourishing in every way possible. New businesses, new partnerships. New creative projects. Great youtube networks, short and long form. Magnificent investigators and journalists. Fun, funny, appreciative. Looking good, too. Not pasty and haunted like the emissaries of the Deep State, the Enemedia, rotten celebs and corrupt politicians. Truth based and loving the USA. Nothing like this on the left.

@pc2753

3 жыл бұрын

Almost as if the two distinct views are being deliberately merged...

@richardedgington5688

3 жыл бұрын

Yes 100% definitely we have both.

Second guy is literally someone that believes the screens in 1984

@126theman

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I was watching this like “no mention of sjw newspeak, etc.”? This is great toward your point: 1:00:56

@yannisch4741

2 жыл бұрын

Throughout his debate, I thought that every point he makes for Orwell, is a point against his own view of the world. The authoritarianism springs from the very people that impose it in the name of freedom. This is a clear case of newspeak. The mass media, publications, hollywood, big pharma; all willing to impose an inverted truth, all willing to adhere to globalism and the means by which it's imposed, "the good of your health" and "the good of the planet". Trump, the very man he argues embodies authoritarianism, was the man shut down from debate by the establishment, almost in its entirety. Words are twisted; people loosing their freedom to move, to associate with their peers, even to think differently, all spring from people so desperately trying to convince us that they are against censorship, against authoritarianism. Summarized, you couldn't have said it better.

The future is a hybrid of the past and the present Huxley and Orwell were both right.

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

i recently realised that the pseudonym "George Orwell" is a very clever pun, sounding like "Jaw Jaw Well", and after looking it up i was unsurprised to discover that almost nobody makes this connection, the reason being that according to their fear they are deeply resistant to what the connection implies. i found one or two people on obscure forums pointing it out, who associated it with the common phrase in Orwell's lifetime "Jaw-Jaw", meaning "talk", suggesting that the pseudonym meant "talk well." but i think "Jaw-Jaw-Well" goes much deeper than simply playing with the parlance of his times. i see the phrase "Jaw-Jaw" in this context as signifying herbivores and carnivores, prey and predators: the first Jaw eats the plants, the second Jaw eats the first Jaw. when in the wild, this dynamic is balanced, both prey and predator are fully aware of their relative roles and thus the resultant suffering is minimal (though the phenomenon was effectively the driver of suffering and especially of fear in the evolution of life), however within humanity it took a much darker turn. the evidence suggests (though no one else seems to be willing to say it out loud) that this dynamic exists within the human species: there is a vast majority of human prey (neurotypical and autistic, the first/passive Jaw) and a small minority of human predators (psychopaths, the second, dominant Jaw). this predator/prey dynamic developed with complex communication (and thus the expanded role of empathy) such that those genetically predisposed to deception and predation would prey not on the bodies of the honest and expressive majority (which served no purpose) but instead on their minds, which they exploited at first using their empathy and their attachment to being accepted by the majority, later forming civilisations whereby fear became the dominant tool for maintainence of the Natural Order. what resulted from this was a society built around the phenomenon of the majority being kept in ignorance and denied recognition of the truth of their existence while a tiny minority held all the knowledge and doled it out to a corrupted small portion of the prey to be used as gatekeepers of the Natural Order. the majority of people, especially since civilisation, were raised into a programmed existence whereby the underlying reality of their situation is buried deep in their minds under socially/emotionally enforced psychological lock-and-key (i.e. metaphorically pushed into the earth down a Well, or a Rabbit Hole as Lewis Carrol put it). hence: the Jaw-Jaw-Well. if you really think about it, it fits in to the running themes of Orwell's final two books perfectly, as his mission seemed to be to deconstruct the lies that our societies feed us in order to maintain top-down control. it also fits in soundly with the idea of "2+2=5" (i.e. it's a fair game of chess even when you don't have thumbs, and a fair game of poker even when you don't have a head) that Winston Smith is forced to accept when he finally realises that he is alone in his understanding and can not undo the Natural Order. don't let this get you down though, 1984 was not a prediction, it was just a very dark exaggeration representing the world that the psychopaths Want, in reality the tide is turning and people are waking up fast.

@alysononoahu8702

2 жыл бұрын

Arthur C. Clarke & others

When the TYRANNT's boot is stamping down on your throat, it's of NO consequence whether it's on the "LEFT" or "RIGHT" foot. #WPRPN

@TheClassicWorld

6 жыл бұрын

But, the fact is, it's almost always been on the *right.* And this is important to note if you wish to know which is better and which may help us have any kind of future. You only need to study history to see this as a fact... yet, the rightists and Christians come running, 'The left is evil and look how righteous we are!'

@ANewYorkerLostInFlorida

5 жыл бұрын

that is poignant and I agree ...

@terrythompson7535

5 жыл бұрын

@@TheClassicWorld Sorry, but if you stack the number of hundreds of millions of deaths by left wingers, the measly 6 million or so the Nazi's caused look minuscule. Furthermore, it is actually debatable whether or not they were right wing at all, given that they were Socialist.. and if you want to try the argument that they used a misnomer, I will direct you to the fact that Socialists today may actually be fascist monopolists trying to use the state to crush family businesses.

@plussum3255

5 жыл бұрын

@@terrythompson7535 There IS a video opposing the claim that the National Socialists were socialists and (claims) that they were Socialist only in name. The video was by three arrows ( /watch?v=hUFvG4RpwJI ). To oversimplify, the policies and values of the members of the party are very different from Socialist ideals.

@terrythompson7535

5 жыл бұрын

@@plussum3255 That's interesting. While the policies may be slightly different, the end result is the same: Hidden banking oligarchy.. fiat currency..and scale. The financiers and shareholders of stock don't really care what race of people produce their income, so long as they can enslave all races of people indiscriminately, worldwide. Any combination of nations and people are fine until they can complete world domination.

How ironic it is that the host is someone from the Guardian, the newspaper that has been smearing Julian Assange for years.

@OMGAnotherday

4 жыл бұрын

Julie Ashton - Thought Police?!

@dissentraleyes

4 жыл бұрын

Imagine my shock. He actually mirrors the Totalitarian world he argues against.

@kylewhite2985

4 жыл бұрын

Did you not see the perversion in this? To subvert the meaning of the books. This is one of the most intelectual criminal things i ever seen, to turn the obvious object of the books which wass Globalism and say its Trump and Putin that are the threats of authoritarianism in the books, agree with them or not, is just evil. These people are pushing their luck.

@billbradleymusic

4 жыл бұрын

@@kylewhite2985 amen brother

@henrikibsen6258

4 жыл бұрын

I would point out that he is more of a Winston Smith than a government man. The true thought police are much higher up than the shills.

Gotta hand it to Self. He really sweeped the field with this one. Incredibly on point. He was careful to emphasis that while this isn't the experience of most of the world, it is the experience dominating the West and especially the influential classes therein. The only fair point made by his opponent was about the manipulation of language. He could have argued that point a lot further and brought in issues of political correctness and and censorship but he didn't -- probably because it doesn't fit with his personal political preferences which are (by his own admissions) clearly left-leaning

@wolzly1

Жыл бұрын

Indeed, the debate was severely hamstringed by incorporating "Trumpism" into the argument.

@jeroenverschaeve3090

Жыл бұрын

I was also thouroughly surprised that political correctness, including the doublethink required to participate in (gender) identity politics, was not mentioned at all.

@stephenharris6652

Жыл бұрын

It really does seems like there is a dived between left and right

@smokingbrush2498

Жыл бұрын

Yes; performance triumphed over relevance. Self read the room and the audience were obviously appreciative of his colourful, risqué comments in their self- [sic] congratulatory middle class way

I'd love to hear this debate now, a year into Covid 19.

@alysononoahu8702

2 жыл бұрын

Or 2

Very pleasant discussion. I read both books long ago and it is clear both books are quite prophetic. Not sure why so many shrill comments about the speakers. The speakers seem very reasonable in their points of view. And the readings from the books are quite apt. I think arguing which book represents Today is silly since both are happening simultaneously, though 1984 is more obvious to people who don't know much science or history. Both books have a happy ending - the State wins. We let this happen to ourselves because we prefer not to think. We can blame parents, churches, advertising, and schools but at some point we should realize it is up to individuals to choose to think and to teach our offspring to think.

@magiicZed

4 жыл бұрын

A lot of the negativity comes from people that feel personally attacked by the second speakers Trump remarks. While I dont have much of an affinity for trump myself, I can understand why some feel a need to fight back. Personally I felt like the first speaker had a better idea of what a dystopian future might be. Is a life of accumulation, instant gratification, and materialism all this world has to offer. Is virtue and chivalry a dying concept in today's society, no longer necessary for the people of the future.

@operaforlife6551

3 жыл бұрын

I love the bitterness in your "happy ending"-remark :)) And agree with teh other points you make, but I would add that, for many parents, what they teach their children is subverted by churches/advertising/regime propaganda..

@markscott554

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, the word seems so binary these days. Discussing these (and other) books is great, but I didn't see the need to push for a winner. It's like debating if doctors are better than nurses; they're both necessary and helpful in their own way while, taken together, aid us even more.

@bicyclist2

3 жыл бұрын

They don't have happy endings if the state wins.

@konradg314

3 жыл бұрын

@@bicyclist2 it's not "if the state wins," but "when the state wins."

Surely mobile phones are the true soma.

@garretthoefer3989

4 жыл бұрын

Everyone has different vices, but yes for the healthy non drug induced "normalite". The cell phone is the soma, the gov't even hands them out to the poor "obama phones" to keep them plugged in, occupied and sedated.

@maxmeeks9910

4 жыл бұрын

Pot, TV, the internet. Here's a censored book that Amazon refuses to advertise for www.amazon.com/Are-American-Zombies-Max-Meeks/dp/1519437412/ref=sr_1_2?crid=123X4ASMDVLA0&keywords=we+are+the+american+zombies&qid=1564177159&s=gateway&sprefix=we+are+the+ameri%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-2

@takutepuke2182

4 жыл бұрын

I think phones and credit cards are the surveillance cameras in 1984

@jvcyt298

4 жыл бұрын

Smartphones and social media are a plague on this world. People can't put the phone down long enough to do their jobs, it's a very real problem.

@gustavoaguilar2004

4 жыл бұрын

I do agree with the fact that we all our different some, however, I'd say that technology overall (mobile phones, video games or TV) is everyone's soma

We've pretty much achieved the 1984 state of paranoia and now we're living in a Scared New World. Bravo to us all.

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

i recently realised that the pseudonym "George Orwell" is a very clever pun, sounding like "Jaw Jaw Well", and after looking it up i was unsurprised to discover that almost nobody makes this connection, the reason being that according to their fear they are deeply resistant to what the connection implies. i found one or two people on obscure forums pointing it out, who associated it with the common phrase in Orwell's lifetime "Jaw-Jaw", meaning "talk", suggesting that the pseudonym meant "talk well." but i think "Jaw-Jaw-Well" goes much deeper than simply playing with the parlance of his times. i see the phrase "Jaw-Jaw" in this context as signifying herbivores and carnivores, prey and predators: the first Jaw eats the plants, the second Jaw eats the first Jaw. when in the wild, this dynamic is balanced, both prey and predator are fully aware of their relative roles and thus the resultant suffering is minimal (though the phenomenon was effectively the driver of suffering and especially of fear in the evolution of life), however within humanity it took a much darker turn. the evidence suggests (though no one else seems to be willing to say it out loud) that this dynamic exists within the human species: there is a vast majority of human prey (neurotypical and autistic, the first/passive Jaw) and a small minority of human predators (psychopaths, the second, dominant Jaw). this predator/prey dynamic developed with complex communication (and thus the expanded role of empathy) such that those genetically predisposed to deception and predation would prey not on the bodies of the honest and expressive majority (which served no purpose) but instead on their minds, which they exploited at first using their empathy and their attachment to being accepted by the majority, later forming civilisations whereby fear became the dominant tool for maintainence of the Natural Order. what resulted from this was a society built around the phenomenon of the majority being kept in ignorance and denied recognition of the truth of their existence while a tiny minority held all the knowledge and doled it out to a corrupted small portion of the prey to be used as gatekeepers of the Natural Order. the majority of people, especially since civilisation, were raised into a programmed existence whereby the underlying reality of their situation is buried deep in their minds under socially/emotionally enforced psychological lock-and-key (i.e. metaphorically pushed into the earth down a Well, or a Rabbit Hole as Lewis Carrol put it). hence: the Jaw-Jaw-Well. if you really think about it, it fits in to the running themes of Orwell's final two books perfectly, as his mission seemed to be to deconstruct the lies that our societies feed us in order to maintain top-down control. it also fits in soundly with the idea of "2+2=5" (i.e. it's a fair game of chess even when you don't have thumbs, and a fair game of poker even when you don't have a head) that Winston Smith is forced to accept when he finally realises that he is alone in his understanding and can not undo the Natural Order. don't let this get you down though, 1984 was not a prediction, it was just a very dark exaggeration representing the world that the psychopaths Want, in reality the tide is turning and people are waking up fast.

@danielmanly4793

Жыл бұрын

And it hasn't improved at all in two years, in fact, it has degraded.

@yoyorocknroll32

Ай бұрын

​@@edenwylie8917😂😂😂

@edenwylie8917

Ай бұрын

@@yoyorocknroll32 😂glad to have made your day

First guy crushed it, second guy follows it up with "orange man bad", such a disappointment

An intriguing subject, alas, vandalized by ideologues.

@pdpaxpv

6 жыл бұрын

That's what happens when you ask people to vote. Debate turns into competition.

@SomethinAintRightHere

4 жыл бұрын

totally!! why must everything be about ‘orange man bad’. grow up already. life is not all about him!

@cseguin

4 жыл бұрын

I haven't watched the debate yet - but from the introduction of the speakers and celebritwits I assumed this was going to be a leftist nutter conspiracy-fest centered around Trumpler . . . . FFS . . . I'd like to see a panel or discussion that hashes out the similarities between the authoritarian leftist and the tyrannical governments of Orwell's and Huxley dystopic visions - because that is far more relevant than any threat of authoritarianism from the right, at the moment at least.

@stephen0793

4 жыл бұрын

Orwell was a socialist you bloody moron, and so was Huxley

@myeffulgenthairyballssay9358

4 жыл бұрын

A disillusioned socialist. They know the score the disillusioned ones. Listen to Peter Hitchens to hear what disillusioned socialists think. The disillusioned one's know how serious these ideologies are.

It’s a shame that 1984 has mostly been reduced to a cliché, because it's a tremendously powerful book with a lot more to say that just “authoritarianism bad!”. Also, I don’t think either book was meant to be a prophetic warning; I see them as thought experiments that take social and political ideas to their extremes.

@EOTA564

6 жыл бұрын

M4ruta Yes. Huxley was wrong about a lot of things if his book is read as pure prophecy but in principle he may well end up being correct. I think it’s possible that Huxley didn’t go far enough. It’s entirely possible that we will voluntarily accept our servitude. What happens in a post scarcity society when we have nothing to do but amuse ourselves and limitless capacity to do so?

@MarlboroughBlenheim1

5 жыл бұрын

M4ruta who says it’s a cliche?

@kelman727

5 жыл бұрын

Frаnк Orwell projected his present into the future, as did Huxley.

@nikitaw1982

4 жыл бұрын

Feminism and transgender ism erasing family and both masculinity and feminity, left pushing for abortion and hormonal treatment for prepubescents. China trading prisoners organs. Its happening. Tech giants digitizing and censoring everything. Too many examples. Its a shame this debate was leftist literature people and not with more right wing types. That would be a different debate though.

@nikitaw1982

4 жыл бұрын

@@MarlboroughBlenheim1 I think a lot of people. Hear it too often.

1984 presents tyranny motivated by evil, whereas Brave New World presents the tyranny of those only wanting what’s best’ for people - both books suggest governments just can’t leave people alone!

@sasha-stone

3 жыл бұрын

We've arrived there.

@Elitist20

2 жыл бұрын

'Government' today is corporate business, setting itself up as being on the side of 'freedom' and 'the people'.

@scottmd10

2 жыл бұрын

And that is not “with liberty and freedom for all”!

It seems we are experiencing both scenarios played out in coordination, and excellently portrayed by both these great thinkers.

@elkpaz560

Жыл бұрын

But would either of the debaters call out the puppet masters or power crazed or would they go on about the orange man?

@Susieq26754

8 ай бұрын

Great thinkers? 😂They were no different than Hugh Hefner. Thinking they could mold a woman's mind into a aggressive or passive aggressive play thing. I like what Elizabeth the first says, "There will be only one mistress here, and NO MASTER!" Elizabeth also referred to Robert Dudley as her little dog. For wherever she went, her little dog followed.

De Tocqueville warned of “soft despotism” in his great work “Democracy In America.”

@BJoinedBReality

4 жыл бұрын

He was a great man

@BJoinedBReality

4 жыл бұрын

Almost like Daniel Hannan or Montesquieu or something

Can't both be seen as equally true in this day? We live in A Brave New World until we question that world, and we are then placed into 1984 if we shout loud enough and create a "disturbance of the peace" that others start to notice...

@ThomasHope73

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly!

@vaibhavgupta20

3 жыл бұрын

+++++

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

i recently realised that the pseudonym "George Orwell" is a very clever pun, sounding like "Jaw Jaw Well", and after looking it up i was unsurprised to discover that almost nobody makes this connection, the reason being that according to their fear they are deeply resistant to what the connection implies. i found one or two people on obscure forums pointing it out, who associated it with the common phrase in Orwell's lifetime "Jaw-Jaw", meaning "talk", suggesting that the pseudonym meant "talk well." but i think "Jaw-Jaw-Well" goes much deeper than simply playing with the parlance of his times. i see the phrase "Jaw-Jaw" in this context as signifying herbivores and carnivores, prey and predators: the first Jaw eats the plants, the second Jaw eats the first Jaw. when in the wild, this dynamic is balanced, both prey and predator are fully aware of their relative roles and thus the resultant suffering is minimal (though the phenomenon was effectively the driver of suffering and especially of fear in the evolution of life), however within humanity it took a much darker turn. the evidence suggests (though no one else seems to be willing to say it out loud) that this dynamic exists within the human species: there is a vast majority of human prey (neurotypical and autistic, the first/passive Jaw) and a small minority of human predators (psychopaths, the second, dominant Jaw). this predator/prey dynamic developed with complex communication (and thus the expanded role of empathy) such that those genetically predisposed to deception and predation would prey not on the bodies of the honest and expressive majority (which served no purpose) but instead on their minds, which they exploited at first using their empathy and their attachment to being accepted by the majority, later forming civilisations whereby fear became the dominant tool for maintainence of the Natural Order. what resulted from this was a society built around the phenomenon of the majority being kept in ignorance and denied recognition of the truth of their existence while a tiny minority held all the knowledge and doled it out to a corrupted small portion of the prey to be used as gatekeepers of the Natural Order. the majority of people, especially since civilisation, were raised into a programmed existence whereby the underlying reality of their situation is buried deep in their minds under socially/emotionally enforced psychological lock-and-key (i.e. metaphorically pushed into the earth down a Well, or a Rabbit Hole as Lewis Carrol put it). hence: the Jaw-Jaw-Well. if you really think about it, it fits in to the running themes of Orwell's final two books perfectly, as his mission seemed to be to deconstruct the lies that our societies feed us in order to maintain top-down control. it also fits in soundly with the idea of "2+2=5" (i.e. it's a fair game of chess even when you don't have thumbs, and a fair game of poker even when you don't have a head) that Winston Smith is forced to accept when he finally realises that he is alone in his understanding and can not undo the Natural Order. don't let this get you down though, 1984 was not a prediction, it was just a very dark exaggeration representing the world that the psychopaths Want, in reality the tide is turning and people are waking up fast.

This is the best debate I've ever seen. The addition of the dramatisation was incredibly helpful in making the arguments. I was on the side of Nineteen Eighty-Four going into the debate, but would've voted for Brave New World by the end. I think what's most pressing is the relevance of both though, and in particular the mesh of both dystopian visions coming together to craft our present. Captivating stuff!

@nnovo3122

3 жыл бұрын

If you're accused of being right wing you get cancelled, locked up as an insurrectionist, lose your job. If you lean to the left you go to psych professionals and get prescriptions on your insurance, work from home, accept experimental vaccines to feel safe, are pro legalization of marijuana and abortion, practice scientism as your religion and believe hate speech should be banned. So if you're on the right you are living in 1984. If you're on the left you're living in Brave New World.

@evelynn4273

8 ай бұрын

@@nnovo3122 - And the whole time, through the years of indoctrination, no one ever tells you about the other option... freedom. To reclaim your sovereignty, the first step is to know those chains are all in our minds.

1984's concepts of newspeak/doublespeak, and thought crimes, as well as the fabrication of history are all shockingly relevant and recognizable today.

@marcokite

3 жыл бұрын

from the Left as always

I strive to find some meaning in this debate... I mean, it's nice to hear about both works being analysed..... but a debate about which is the "best for our times"??? Why? Read both, you'll be better off for it.

@GuirriGandul

4 жыл бұрын

I agree, this could have been produce by either dystopia!

@trewens

4 жыл бұрын

@@GuirriGandul and AXZ1974 you have completely missed the point.

@mikelheron20

4 жыл бұрын

It's simply a device for examining the books more closely.

@BJoinedBReality

4 жыл бұрын

David Icke warns that dystopian novels and films also serve to normalise and acquaint us with the world totalitarians want to summon in, so we'll passively accept its gradual fruition because it's already familiar

@connieshannon7845

4 жыл бұрын

just read. ON F"NG PAPER!

My God - both these speakers actually think Trump is the danger! 1984 is not just a vision - it's the reality.

@Rhodiac

4 жыл бұрын

Spot on. They're too busy looking at the shadows on the cave wall projected by the tainted sense making apparatus that is the Main Stream Media

@toltacoatl

4 жыл бұрын

there is a sad and very telling thing about some essential meta-message which is repeatedly communicated in this show: it is the terms putinism & trumpism. why did nobody pull some other cliches? how about bushism, obamaism or clintonism? by using the 2 supposedly special (in evil ways) pictures, they have successfully pasted these 2 weirdly problematic cliches into 150.000 brains. what a success?

@michaelrowsell1160

4 жыл бұрын

@@Rhodiac Woosh..All going over your head.

@ragemsaid8697

4 жыл бұрын

Balla Services da sad one

Trump's authoritarianism, how the hell did that idea formulate in the mind of the chair of this debate. If anything Biden and the corporate media are more appropriate bedfellows

@guzkus1

3 жыл бұрын

And so it goes.

@kdegraa

2 жыл бұрын

Trump was such an authoritarian he could not stop a Twitter & FB from deleting his account & banning him from using their services.

@DGollp

2 жыл бұрын

Antifa is behind the Jan. 6th riot, yet we don't want to investigate it - also the imprisoned are all innocent peaceful protesters. By the way, you can never know whether the election was stolen from him, even though the FBI, the OECD, the UN and every single court case, bipartisan election commision and Republican led election audit ALL said the results were legitimate. Also liberals want to secretly install communism through schools. We invent nonsensical terms like critical race theory or bogeymen like Antifa and repeat them until every time we just utter the word, all Fox News viewer will foam at their mouths. Larry Elder complains about election fraud before the votes were even cast. George Floyd first was murdered. which was admitted by Republicans and Fox News and later the past was changed into him dying from a drug overdose. The court case was also fraudulent and Antifa supposedly intimidated the jury. The speaker is absolutely right about Trump and 1984. In 2018 he just didn't have the worst examples ready yet. Neurological studies have shown that the part in the brain, that is responsible for critical thinking is degenerated in the brains of Republicans, whereas it remains largely intact in the brains of Democrats. Republicans brains feature an extreme emotionality component, especially the parts responsible for fear and tribalism are highly developed. Objective reality, truth itself has been destroyed by them. A funtioning democracy can not survive this. The future of America will be a tyranny unlike anything the world has ever seen before.

@dawnclabaugh3598

2 жыл бұрын

@@DGollp ?

@nat4465

2 жыл бұрын

@@kdegraa 😆 yea and he is so authoritarian that he went through the court systems to make sure the election was fair. Instead of just taking over without regard for the people’s concern. And so authoritarian that he allowed the news to misrepresent his words. And so authoritarian that he allowed for the states to decide how to carry out Covid protocols (from what I understand and remember) and made the vaccine available and left to people decide if that’s a correct medical decision for them. Etc.

Two awesome books that changed my way of thinking, changed me, for life. I read them in my teens and 20s. Middle-aged now. Excited now to listen to this lecture...

Too bad Christopher Hitchens wasn't around for this one.

@hayleys1260

6 жыл бұрын

That would have been absolutely delicious.

@MarlboroughBlenheim1

5 жыл бұрын

AWS indeed. He would have done a great job for Orwell.

@jthemagicrobot3960

5 жыл бұрын

why would you want a communist around?

@funbigly

4 жыл бұрын

*Hitchens:* I would have liked to say Huxley, but you see I've been a contributing force to the neo-liberal expansionist machinery over the last 20 years, after dabbling in marxism inspired socialism for some 20 odd years before that, which uhh... also... failed on me. Anyhow, it's a good thing I cashed in my chips when I did a few years back and good night.

@GuirriGandul

4 жыл бұрын

No doubt Hitchens would have been eloquent but as with Chomsky, his sincerity and good faith is brought into doubt by his proclamations on the two defining frauds of our time, the destruction of the World Trade Centre etal. and man-made planetary climate change.

Great debate I personally have always sided with “brave new world “ as being more relevant to the modern dystopian we are experiencing today ,but I feel there are lots in1984 that resonates today too

Thanks for posting this video. It's great food for thought, and it's good of you to make it accessible to those who would otherwise be unable to access it.

This Will Self seemed odd at first but everything he has so eloquently voiced is what I have always deeply suspected.

Western civilization Brave new world, allmost rest of the world 1984. Both are true

@chicawhappa

4 жыл бұрын

@Eliass soderlund Finally! Someone with the same thought as me...

@natalieanimal4063

4 жыл бұрын

I agree, and since my country is geographically AND politically between the two, we have a weird mixture, like maybe in Fahrenheit 451. On TV, first a chase of the state enemy and then a shallow' humorous' show. War is a realistic danger and they're advertising toothpaste. Don't know if you've read it but these two hit pretty close for me. Although, that novel, as well as some other Bradburry's works, implies that authorities in US act as if that country was the world, making people believe it too, but the same can be said about my and other countries' authorities sometimes.

@BJoinedBReality

4 жыл бұрын

@@natalieanimal4063 _Fahrenheit 451_ by Ray Bradbury was pretty good. _V for Vendetta_ by Alan Moore was good too. So were _I, Robot_ by Isaac Asimov, _Animal Farm_ by George Orwell, _Soumission_ by Michel Houellebecq, and _The Trial_ by Franz Kafka, although the latter was poorly written/translated.

@natalieanimal4063

4 жыл бұрын

@@BJoinedBReality I love this genre and I'm glad you like some of the books. I've read Animal Farm and The Trial (that one was in school and I forgot the most though), I've heard of all but the last one, thanks for the suggestions.

@milo_thatch_incarnate

3 жыл бұрын

Ooh, very insightful distinction.

This was riveting..thank you for posting, made me want to read these magnificent books again.

"By alerting language we can reshape thought" Adam Gopnik That is what is happening in this era.

Couldn't help noticing some people giving Will Self some hate for no reason other than writing for some admittedly pro-establishment outlets. I had never heard of him until I cliked on this video and I must say, I thought his arguments were absolutely on point and poignant. Also, I just loved the way he kind of ripped this clearly liberal audience's comfort apart with glee, making his points true to his own perspective without trying to pander. The other guy I could barely listen. The very few lines I heard sounded more like something more in tune with this audience's liking. So yeah, I'm getting me some Will Self's books now. Got himself a new reader.

Wow... I wrote out a comment and then deleted it saying it's funny that this guy has no problems mentioning Trump and Putin, but avoids the topic of China and Xi. Then Will brings it up @1:30:36 after someone asks it in the audience. Definitely not a "slip of the mind."

@pinetreeYT

2 жыл бұрын

The New York Times deleted a bunch of archive articles regarding China, not too long ago. This left wing New Yorker is afraid for his career, hence the "slip of mind". Most of the US media is receiving "big bucks" from China. It isn't a coincidence.

Well as good as I heard Adam Introduced I was done!! You know it’s kinda funny we are over 2 years into the Trump presidency and it’s noting at all like 1984, in fact people question and criticize him and his administration non stop and nothing negative happens to them! 🤨

@stephj9378

4 жыл бұрын

Out of that group the ones who broke laws are on tap to pay for their crimes. And he does and will always call out liars who dupe the public. But there's no effort to harm opposition just because they criticize.

@pennstatekate08

3 жыл бұрын

And yet, nothing happens to people have been proven criminals in his administration (or were in his administration)...

@TankGunner84

3 жыл бұрын

Kate Cobb how were they proven criminals, also who? General Flynn? That came out as total entrapment. Cater Page? The one who an FBI lawyer just pled guilty for altering his information from a CIA asset to a Russian spy? Rodger Stone, for lying to Congress? Last I check he was convicted, he was screwed by a gag order from a judge during his trial forbidding him to speak of his trail to anyone outside of his council, that sounds legitimate! Steve Brannon and the other 2 yahoos charged with taking money from the build a wall charity, you should be happy about that! So who were these horrible criminals and if they are so bad and so dangerous what about all the criminals on the Democrats side who haven’t even been charged?

@karahrobinson8823

3 жыл бұрын

They criticize him because he's working against the transformation into totalitarianism

@karahrobinson8823

3 жыл бұрын

Trump has been a godsend if you can appreciate the sovreignty of the U. S. - the Constitution and the bill of rights

Two fantastic books, but we can't neglect the fact that without Yevgeny Zamyatin's We from 1921, we would have neither. He was light years ahead of his contemporaries and paid the price for it

@casanovafrankenstein5228

2 жыл бұрын

Very very true .

@granthurlburt4062

2 жыл бұрын

A couple of decades, not light years. Which are distances.

@liamkeegan432

2 жыл бұрын

@@granthurlburt4062 bet you're fun at parties

No notes, no teleprompter. Respect.

Comparing Trump, Hungarian, Italian right wing uprising to Orwell's vision of 1984 is a joke.

@Muldoon111

5 жыл бұрын

Indeed. It's the complete opposite. What they accuse others of being is actually them.

@Rhodiac

4 жыл бұрын

Correct

@sirrathersplendid4825

4 жыл бұрын

MOOSEDOWNUNDER, I’m still trying to figure out how the lefties don’t understand that the dystopia is come from them not the right.

@wedgecharger

4 жыл бұрын

@@sirrathersplendid4825 Worlds biggest problem at the moment.

@dissentraleyes

4 жыл бұрын

So much this. He basically told us we are at word with East Asia the minute he spoke about Putin

I feel that it is a question of degree as opposed to this false dichotomy. Brave New World mainly applies to 1st world countries, wheras 1984 mainly applies to the developing world. Another prescient book to read is Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, I feel that it's an amalgamation of both BNW and 1984.

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

i recently realised that the pseudonym "George Orwell" is a very clever pun, sounding like "Jaw Jaw Well", and after looking it up i was unsurprised to discover that almost nobody makes this connection, the reason being that according to their fear they are deeply resistant to what the connection implies. i found one or two people on obscure forums pointing it out, who associated it with the common phrase in Orwell's lifetime "Jaw-Jaw", meaning "talk", suggesting that the pseudonym meant "talk well." but i think "Jaw-Jaw-Well" goes much deeper than simply playing with the parlance of his times. i see the phrase "Jaw-Jaw" in this context as signifying herbivores and carnivores, prey and predators: the first Jaw eats the plants, the second Jaw eats the first Jaw. when in the wild, this dynamic is balanced, both prey and predator are fully aware of their relative roles and thus the resultant suffering is minimal (though the phenomenon was effectively the driver of suffering and especially of fear in the evolution of life), however within humanity it took a much darker turn. the evidence suggests (though no one else seems to be willing to say it out loud) that this dynamic exists within the human species: there is a vast majority of human prey (neurotypical and autistic, the first/passive Jaw) and a small minority of human predators (psychopaths, the second, dominant Jaw). this predator/prey dynamic developed with complex communication (and thus the expanded role of empathy) such that those genetically predisposed to deception and predation would prey not on the bodies of the honest and expressive majority (which served no purpose) but instead on their minds, which they exploited at first using their empathy and their attachment to being accepted by the majority, later forming civilisations whereby fear became the dominant tool for maintainence of the Natural Order. what resulted from this was a society built around the phenomenon of the majority being kept in ignorance and denied recognition of the truth of their existence while a tiny minority held all the knowledge and doled it out to a corrupted small portion of the prey to be used as gatekeepers of the Natural Order. the majority of people, especially since civilisation, were raised into a programmed existence whereby the underlying reality of their situation is buried deep in their minds under socially/emotionally enforced psychological lock-and-key (i.e. metaphorically pushed into the earth down a Well, or a Rabbit Hole as Lewis Carrol put it). hence: the Jaw-Jaw-Well. if you really think about it, it fits in to the running themes of Orwell's final two books perfectly, as his mission seemed to be to deconstruct the lies that our societies feed us in order to maintain top-down control. it also fits in soundly with the idea of "2+2=5" (i.e. it's a fair game of chess even when you don't have thumbs, and a fair game of poker even when you don't have a head) that Winston Smith is forced to accept when he finally realises that he is alone in his understanding and can not undo the Natural Order. don't let this get you down though, 1984 was not a prediction, it was just a very dark exaggeration representing the world that the psychopaths Want, in reality the tide is turning and people are waking up fast.

@Garry_Combine

3 жыл бұрын

@@edenwylie8917 Why are you spamming this? Wow, you did a big brain, good for you, just mpost the one comment like everyone else, don't spam it around man... It's annoying asf

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

@@Garry_Combine i was psychotic when i was spamming. Psychotic people don't usually have such inhibitions, feeling like they're on some sort of an important mission, especially when paranoid schizophrenia is involved. We are completely out of touch with simple social realities in that state. Besides, if you take the reality of what i was doing into account, it was hardly a "big brain", quite the opposite. Give me a break, you may find it annoying, but what is the harm done to you, really?

@edenwylie8917

2 жыл бұрын

@Kilo Mintoni what do you mean?

This would have been a much more interesting and cogent debate if they had lost Gopnik and held the debate in 2021. If they had someone who actually understood 1984, and wasn’t an establishment shill like Gopnik. Post Covid lockdowns, and vaccine mania, this would be a hell of a debate. As it stands it’s extremely one sided, but held today would have so much more for both sides to argue for.

@yannisch4741

2 жыл бұрын

As a guy above mentioned, Gopnik is precisely the guy who believes the screen in 1984.

This was a midwit debate: both are works of literature that accent and elevate social currents in order to make a point about things that aren't overt; both have become cultural touchstones that organize perception toward largely invisible machinations. The ideas of both are prescient and arguing that one mirrors the world more than the other is a disservice to both (and kind of a joke). Literary technique actually works against Orwell in this discussion (i.e. his themes aren't dependant on the world outcome he uses to make his points). For example, Orwell used stark/horrific imagery to underscore his themes; 1984 is much more visceral than BNW (and that's probably by design on the part of both authors). Just because the world created by Orwell is overtly regimented doesn't mean that the world we live in is such in a clear/visible way (e.g. political gatekeepers are largely invisible--the head of the DNC was caught actively undermining the primary campaign of a popular candidate, only to resign and be hired into a top position by the candidate that person had been running against). BNW overtly makes the argument that people will blindly accept pacification whereas 1984 implies such. The point isn't about living in a duplicate of 1984 or BNW, but that both expose elements of social order that are dangerous and antithetical to values and ideas that are openly voiced (i.e. that these values are weaponized is in line with 1984 and that we actually don't really care enough to think deeply about them is in line with BNW--these aren't mutually exclusive lines of thought). Further, the fact the guy arguing in favor of Orwell didn't bring up language like _alternative_ facts and _mostly peaceful_ protests, ironically, does a lot toward the idea that the manipulation of language (and thereby thought) is an insidious trend; one that largely goes unnoticed (no one is going to hook you up to a torture machine but you might have to attend _implicit bias training_ if you want to keep your job). The major commonality between both 1984 and BNW is pacification (and not the literal dystopias they use to explore that theme). The debate shouldn't be decided on the idea that we're living in one or the other because the whole point is we're always living through both. The fact that party members/alphas are holding an extracurricular debate about dystopian pacification, finding that the norms they adhere to aren't as cruelly enforced as depicted by 1984, is unintentionally ironic.

The books melt into each other.

@pip6293

4 жыл бұрын

That’s reductionist

What is up with the first guy asking a question? There was no claim whatsoever that you have to be famous to say something important o.O Other than that I think Gopnik failed to mention quite a bit of what makes 1984 so important and missed a lot of rather stunning examples.

3:34 I was hopeful that this would be an interesting discussion, but the presenter lost me when he revealed his bias against Trump's "brutal authoritarianism." The presenter has apparently bought the doublespeak of the Ministry of Lies.

@christopherbloor3901

3 жыл бұрын

The presenter was just reading out a passage from Adam Gopnik's ridiculous article.

@timbimjim514

3 жыл бұрын

You hit the nail on the head mate. It wasn't Trump we needed to fear but the mindset of some of the members of this panel.

@jimbog35

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment. You saved me 90 minutes.

@bprosperie

3 жыл бұрын

Also, how ironic is it that not only is Trumpism not the person depicted in 1984, but the Whole Left who are virtually re-writing the history books, changing street signs, etc. etc. Although i'm sure Trump has a part, it just shows the insanity of political bias.

@junesnow5422

3 жыл бұрын

January 14, 2021: do you hold fast to your comments here, or have your views changed?

Can it be that we're too somatised to realize that we're in a 1984 world ?

@dirtybanana3

3 жыл бұрын

i have 16 different whiskey bottles in my liquor cabinet and 3 vehicles in my driveway. i have a 65"tv in room filled with video game and movie collectables worth 10,000$ at least...much more than a crappy bottle of gin and a lump of bread..seems like a brave new world to me

@bicyclist2

3 жыл бұрын

Yes.

We live in a hybrid, approximating both Huxley and Orwell's visions.

We're already dead if we're actually debating which life would be the best life between these two scenarios...

Excellent Debate. Thank you for this gem!

This could have been such an interesting debate, but instead of Brave New World vs Nineteen Eighty-Four it was Brave New World vs I hate Trump, what a shame.

Thoroughly enjoyed this presentation! Thanks.

Ironically, it is the search engine in Google owned KZread, which brought me to this incredibly interesting discussion.

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

i recently realised that the pseudonym "George Orwell" is a very clever pun, sounding like "Jaw Jaw Well", and after looking it up i was unsurprised to discover that almost nobody makes this connection, the reason being that according to their fear they are deeply resistant to what the connection implies. i found one or two people on obscure forums pointing it out, who associated it with the common phrase in Orwell's lifetime "Jaw-Jaw", meaning "talk", suggesting that the pseudonym meant "talk well." but i think "Jaw-Jaw-Well" goes much deeper than simply playing with the parlance of his times. i see the phrase "Jaw-Jaw" in this context as signifying herbivores and carnivores, prey and predators: the first Jaw eats the plants, the second Jaw eats the first Jaw. when in the wild, this dynamic is balanced, both prey and predator are fully aware of their relative roles and thus the resultant suffering is minimal (though the phenomenon was effectively the driver of suffering and especially of fear in the evolution of life), however within humanity it took a much darker turn. the evidence suggests (though no one else seems to be willing to say it out loud) that this dynamic exists within the human species: there is a vast majority of human prey (neurotypical and autistic, the first/passive Jaw) and a small minority of human predators (psychopaths, the second, dominant Jaw). this predator/prey dynamic developed with complex communication (and thus the expanded role of empathy) such that those genetically predisposed to deception and predation would prey not on the bodies of the honest and expressive majority (which served no purpose) but instead on their minds, which they exploited at first using their empathy and their attachment to being accepted by the majority, later forming civilisations whereby fear became the dominant tool for maintainence of the Natural Order. what resulted from this was a society built around the phenomenon of the majority being kept in ignorance and denied recognition of the truth of their existence while a tiny minority held all the knowledge and doled it out to a corrupted small portion of the prey to be used as gatekeepers of the Natural Order. the majority of people, especially since civilisation, were raised into a programmed existence whereby the underlying reality of their situation is buried deep in their minds under socially/emotionally enforced psychological lock-and-key (i.e. metaphorically pushed into the earth down a Well, or a Rabbit Hole as Lewis Carrol put it). hence: the Jaw-Jaw-Well. if you really think about it, it fits in to the running themes of Orwell's final two books perfectly, as his mission seemed to be to deconstruct the lies that our societies feed us in order to maintain top-down control. it also fits in soundly with the idea of "2+2=5" (i.e. it's a fair game of chess even when you don't have thumbs, and a fair game of poker even when you don't have a head) that Winston Smith is forced to accept when he finally realises that he is alone in his understanding and can not undo the Natural Order. don't let this get you down though, 1984 was not a prediction, it was just a very dark exaggeration representing the world that the psychopaths Want, in reality the tide is turning and people are waking up fast.

Evgeny Zamyatin's "We" wins. Orwell was heavily influenced by that novel while writing 1984 and borrowed many elements. Zamyatin is the founding father of dystopia

@stsk7

3 жыл бұрын

I didn't know about this book but will surely listen to the audiobook thanks to your comment, cheers!

@fundwise8798

3 жыл бұрын

'We' predates them both and should be read as it influenced both Huxley and Orwell. It is available freely from Gutenberg project and in Wikitext

1:04:22 O'Brien: How many genders there are, Winston? Winston: 2. O'Brien: And if the party says that it is not 2 but 76, then how many? ...

Numbness for the rich and death to the poor.

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

i recently realised that the pseudonym "George Orwell" is a very clever pun, sounding like "Jaw Jaw Well", and after looking it up i was unsurprised to discover that almost nobody makes this connection, the reason being that according to their fear they are deeply resistant to what the connection implies. i found one or two people on obscure forums pointing it out, who associated it with the common phrase in Orwell's lifetime "Jaw-Jaw", meaning "talk", suggesting that the pseudonym meant "talk well." but i think "Jaw-Jaw-Well" goes much deeper than simply playing with the parlance of his times. i see the phrase "Jaw-Jaw" in this context as signifying herbivores and carnivores, prey and predators: the first Jaw eats the plants, the second Jaw eats the first Jaw. when in the wild, this dynamic is balanced, both prey and predator are fully aware of their relative roles and thus the resultant suffering is minimal (though the phenomenon was effectively the driver of suffering and especially of fear in the evolution of life), however within humanity it took a much darker turn. the evidence suggests (though no one else seems to be willing to say it out loud) that this dynamic exists within the human species: there is a vast majority of human prey (neurotypical and autistic, the first/passive Jaw) and a small minority of human predators (psychopaths, the second, dominant Jaw). this predator/prey dynamic developed with complex communication (and thus the expanded role of empathy) such that those genetically predisposed to deception and predation would prey not on the bodies of the honest and expressive majority (which served no purpose) but instead on their minds, which they exploited at first using their empathy and their attachment to being accepted by the majority, later forming civilisations whereby fear became the dominant tool for maintainence of the Natural Order. what resulted from this was a society built around the phenomenon of the majority being kept in ignorance and denied recognition of the truth of their existence while a tiny minority held all the knowledge and doled it out to a corrupted small portion of the prey to be used as gatekeepers of the Natural Order. the majority of people, especially since civilisation, were raised into a programmed existence whereby the underlying reality of their situation is buried deep in their minds under socially/emotionally enforced psychological lock-and-key (i.e. metaphorically pushed into the earth down a Well, or a Rabbit Hole as Lewis Carrol put it). hence: the Jaw-Jaw-Well. if you really think about it, it fits in to the running themes of Orwell's final two books perfectly, as his mission seemed to be to deconstruct the lies that our societies feed us in order to maintain top-down control. it also fits in soundly with the idea of "2+2=5" (i.e. it's a fair game of chess even when you don't have thumbs, and a fair game of poker even when you don't have a head) that Winston Smith is forced to accept when he finally realises that he is alone in his understanding and can not undo the Natural Order. don't let this get you down though, 1984 was not a prediction, it was just a very dark exaggeration representing the world that the psychopaths Want, in reality the tide is turning and people are waking up fast.

The guy advocating for Nineteen Eighty-Four dropped the ball when he failed to mention the surveillance of Big Brother. How could he have missed that point?

Whoever Adam Gopnik might be, I hope never to hear his infantile or indoctrinated simplisms again.

The juxtaposition I most wish they’d touched on is the way in which both novelists deal with the quelling of rebels, Winston and Julia in 1984 and Bernard and Helmholtz in Brave New World (I’ve left out John the Savage as he is quite the outlier in the World State, and not very comparable to these other character examples. No, he is not the true rebel, it is Bernard and Helmholtz who commit the BNW equivalent of an Orwellian thought crime) This concept of perma-peace v. perma-war certainly goes hand in hand with the depictions of rebels, and the debate between whether in our world we more often see rebels annihilated or co-opted.

Orwell feared of books being banned, Huxley feared of people not being interested in books. Hey, what about Bradburry's Fahrenheit 451

I always viewed them in a timeline. The world of 1984 develops into the world of a brave new. I believe we are somewhere between 1984 and brave new world today.

@edenwylie8917

3 жыл бұрын

i recently realised that the pseudonym "George Orwell" is a very clever pun, sounding like "Jaw Jaw Well", and after looking it up i was unsurprised to discover that almost nobody makes this connection, the reason being that according to their fear they are deeply resistant to what the connection implies. i found one or two people on obscure forums pointing it out, who associated it with the common phrase in Orwell's lifetime "Jaw-Jaw", meaning "talk", suggesting that the pseudonym meant "talk well." but i think "Jaw-Jaw-Well" goes much deeper than simply playing with the parlance of his times. i see the phrase "Jaw-Jaw" in this context as signifying herbivores and carnivores, prey and predators: the first Jaw eats the plants, the second Jaw eats the first Jaw. when in the wild, this dynamic is balanced, both prey and predator are fully aware of their relative roles and thus the resultant suffering is minimal (though the phenomenon was effectively the driver of suffering and especially of fear in the evolution of life), however within humanity it took a much darker turn. the evidence suggests (though no one else seems to be willing to say it out loud) that this dynamic exists within the human species: there is a vast majority of human prey (neurotypical and autistic, the first/passive Jaw) and a small minority of human predators (psychopaths, the second, dominant Jaw). this predator/prey dynamic developed with complex communication (and thus the expanded role of empathy) such that those genetically predisposed to deception and predation would prey not on the bodies of the honest and expressive majority (which served no purpose) but instead on their minds, which they exploited at first using their empathy and their attachment to being accepted by the majority, later forming civilisations whereby fear became the dominant tool for maintainence of the Natural Order. what resulted from this was a society built around the phenomenon of the majority being kept in ignorance and denied recognition of the truth of their existence while a tiny minority held all the knowledge and doled it out to a corrupted small portion of the prey to be used as gatekeepers of the Natural Order. the majority of people, especially since civilisation, were raised into a programmed existence whereby the underlying reality of their situation is buried deep in their minds under socially/emotionally enforced psychological lock-and-key (i.e. metaphorically pushed into the earth down a Well, or a Rabbit Hole as Lewis Carrol put it). hence: the Jaw-Jaw-Well. if you really think about it, it fits in to the running themes of Orwell's final two books perfectly, as his mission seemed to be to deconstruct the lies that our societies feed us in order to maintain top-down control. it also fits in soundly with the idea of "2+2=5" (i.e. it's a fair game of chess even when you don't have thumbs, and a fair game of poker even when you don't have a head) that Winston Smith is forced to accept when he finally realises that he is alone in his understanding and can not undo the Natural Order. don't let this get you down though, 1984 was not a prediction, it was just a very dark exaggeration representing the world that the psychopaths Want, in reality the tide is turning and people are waking up fast.

Nether of these novel should have similarities to our lives and remain the hysterical ravings of mad men, but yet here we are.

@susanneternovsky646

2 жыл бұрын

You won't owe anything but will be happy KLAUS SCHWAB

32:57 Anyone else feel like his presentation lost weight when he continued to insult working class people as morons?

@whispyrain1666

4 жыл бұрын

But most of them are. The willing slaves. NPC's. I guess moron is the wrong word... that would mean they are stupid when really they are soul-less zombies, no real spirit in them. Supernatural.

@sulezraz

3 жыл бұрын

He is talking like he's a character from the book, looking at our world from their perspective. It's quite effective.

@operaforlife6551

3 жыл бұрын

He didn't, it's what they were called in Brave New World, which he was explaining, Will Self wouldn't be so ignorant as to express such a..eugenic opinion..

@phannybrce

3 жыл бұрын

Opera for Life He says effectively, If you don't believe epsilons exist, stay around and talk with the maintenance workers. In the book, Epsilons were denied oxygen while in "utero" and given doses of alcohol to reduce brain function. He is effectively saying you are likely to find a person who has limited neurological development as a custodian. As for the comment above about the majority of working class being soulless zombies, I disagree.

@operaforlife6551

3 жыл бұрын

@@phannybrce Yes, when you put it like that it is a very unthinking comment, but I still think he didn't make that connection since he is not a man who considers himself as "better" than others, just by virtue of employment. But in the context of the book, which he was discussing after all, it is kinda bad you're right. I also disagree about the comment above, I have friends working as custodians and friends working in much better paid employment and It's usually the more money they earn the less time they spend thinking about serious things.. xD

There was an argument for 1984. But terminal trump derangement syndrome squandered that.

Both books have similarities with present day world realities. George Orwell's depiction in 1984 of a world divided into three blocs - i.e. Oceania, Eurasia and EastAsia has similarities to the different spheres of influence and alignment in the world today, though these do not correspond exactly with what Orwell depicted in his novel. These informal blocs today, though not clearly defined, could comprised the United States, the European Union countries (including the U.K. for now), Australia and New Zealand, a bloc aligned with Russia and China, which through its Belt & Road initiative, hopes to recreate the Silk Road of economic belts, railroads and sea routes enabling trade along these belts which span across Asia and Europe or what could be called "Eurasia". Also, whilst the communication infrastructure required to enable remote surveillance of every room in homes via telescreens, plus the telescreens themselves would be prohibitively expensive for any government to implement, as well as the cost of the people required to do the remote monitoring from a centralised location. However today, people themselves gladly subscribe to broadband Internet service and pay out of their own pockets, often handsomely, for the devices to access the Internet with and through with both private corporations and governments, can monitor and gather all kinds of information about us using not humans but computer technology. On the other hand I tend to agree that there are greater similarities between the "Brave New World" which Huxley depicted, with the addiction many have to technology today, the shallow, consumerist, hedonistic lifestyle we are being encourage to lead, the escapism, illusions and distractions we are falling for and so forth, whilst believing that we are "free" when we actually are enslaved without realising it - and this is much more pervasive in our lives today.

Progressive left agenda + AI + Big data = brave new world

@bprosperie

3 жыл бұрын

You can elect yourself into a dictatorship, but you have to kill your way out. This is why the 2nd amendment is the absolute most important

@everythingmatters6308

3 жыл бұрын

Progressive left is for free speech. You don't know what the progressive left even is.

@4jader4

3 жыл бұрын

@@everythingmatters6308 only if it agrees with them

@everythingmatters6308

3 жыл бұрын

@@4jader4 No. Those are social justice warriors who call themselves progressives. They are not the real deal.

@JeremiahCaesar

3 жыл бұрын

You know the left just praises Ford all the the time and loves capitalism sure...

These are far and away my favorite dystopian novels, and I thoroughly enjoy these arguments from each side. The only critique I might offer is that inherent bias could be claimed in the use of specific references to Trump, and I would hope the point of this discourse is logical yet empathetic persuasion - we must take care to avoid the same polarizing pitfalls theorized by Huxley and Orwell.

@pinetreeYT

2 жыл бұрын

Well said, Lisa. You put my thoughts into words.

Brave New World has been my favorite book since I was about 19 or 20. So glad the funny guy is arguing on its side, and I think it wins hands down. No bias at all =\

Will Self's face at 1:01:21 ! They both did a wonderful job. They are both great novels.

1984 is the world that we fear, A Brave New World is the world we won't believe is happening to us until it's over

@anonymike8280

2 жыл бұрын

In _Brave New World,_ your final realization when the day of your 60-and-out retirement comes is that there is not and never was a "you".

why does there have to be a winner? more bipartisan, divisive nonsense... They were both correct.

@bicyclist2

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed.

@marcokite

3 жыл бұрын

exactly! stupid premise to start with.

Very powerful reading from Callow

I wonder what would be the result now, in the middle of this coronavirus frenzy. Now citizens of US can feel that thought-policing Orwell as well (it's happening there everytime, seems missed it until now). In my opinion, both of visions coexists now, but I feel 1984 much stronger. Especially in current situation. I also think, by the style and literature, Orwell wins by far (I know, its subjective).

What a truly phenomenal debate. Well done!

This was ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT! I LOVED IT! I've read both books and BNW recently as well. Though I prefer Orwell's story I voted for Huxley before and after. AMAZING, LOVED IT, THANK YOU.

"Every statue has been removed." Prescient.

@letsomethingshine

3 жыл бұрын

"keep the statues!" Said no hero ever. They should be putting out books and statements instead of statues. Statues may be more useful for vague consensus of nothing than actual thoughts though.

@kamiltrzebiatowski9331

3 жыл бұрын

@@letsomethingshine Sadly, I don't have the data on all heroes ever, so I cannot possibly hope to be able to respond.

They both are fantastic novels. I’d choose “1984”, but “Brave New World” is a masterpiece too.

@allegrasweet3272

3 жыл бұрын

this is why we doomed, why choose at all? to detract you that we lived in brave new world, and that some people had awaked so 1984 has had to kick in and a virus came along and now we live in both and the narrativ is to choose why not come up with something new

@smokingbrush2498

Жыл бұрын

@@allegrasweet3272 You have identified the fundamental flaw in the programme format.

As a University student studying both novels in my Utopoa module and having been sent a link by lecturer today called "Brave New World vs 1984", this is a godsend

@14samramirez

3 жыл бұрын

Will Self says it best when he said Brave New World is ultimate peace and 1984 is ultimate war. I think that's the best way to compare and contrast the two.

The most disturbing thing about this is the ads disrupting the presentation on the platform and medium we have no other option from.

Amassing, i had just finished both book. This is a very, very well done debate. Both are greate and scary books worth checking out. I thinknthe answer truly is, that both books are a reflection of the world we live in today. More now during the pandemic of 2020

@ionelghiorghita688

2 жыл бұрын

This is why is not quite good to make political connections. What few years ago seems to be something about Trump or Putin authority today seems to be about the opposite globalist mind control politics.

Adam Gopnik's argument is ultimately self defeating. His point of view and argument is based solely around his political ideologies. The thesis he brings forth is based on his interpretation of the worlds political alignment; it is then used it to prove his premise: I highly doubt he would come to the same conclusion if the alignment in question mirrored his own. (A 5 mins google search actually validates this). This is, Ironically, why his argument is actually unbelievable viable. 1984's underlying message is people can be conditioned to see any system as the "only way". Once convinced of this, be it by there own willing participation, or in Winston Smith's case, the need to be gently coerced, anything offered or forced upon them is acceptable. The theme of Big Brother was never meant to be a clear definition of one system or ideology; so any one who immediately attributes 1984 to an opposing point of view should ask themselves one question: Have they won the victory over themselves?

It would appear we are entering the age of Orwell clothed in the somatose sedatives of Huxley

@alysononoahu8702

2 жыл бұрын

Oh cwap, we're screwed

Self: "Modern mass consumerism and corrupt corporations very much reflect Brave New World." Gopnik: "pootin, drumpf, 1984"

I’m surprised nobody mentioned the great inspiration Orwell took from Yevgen Zamyatins We. He borrowed many of his visual tropes from that novel.

@jakecollins1932

3 жыл бұрын

I think that’s just less well known in the UK. Funnily enough, the copy I have had an introduction by Will Self

I read both books a long time ago and have always been surprised when the media referred to either as prescient. This debate confirmed my sentiment that both books are dated and were referring to some other evil in the disguise of a different time or world. The media and some people are easily trumped by picking some language in either books and pretending they were meant for this time. As far as the debate is concerned, I thought that the defender of Brave New World was extremely inspired and made a very great performance. The other guy looked like he was pitching a boardroom and selling something no one wants.

A fantastic presentation and superb acting!! Terrifying prospecrs too... Thank you all!!! Teresa (just an old language....) teacher

I always felt that Gillians film Brazil was very much about this topic.

@operaforlife6551

3 жыл бұрын

oh yeah, completely, with some Handmaid's tale sprinkled lightly on the top :)

@DANINREDDY

3 жыл бұрын

Brazil is 1984...