I did learn the bow rudder first, but am confident with both and it is more instinctual which I used based on what is most appropriate for where I am and what I am trying to accomplish, and the conditions present. While you demonstrated the bow rudder with the top blade over the near shoulder, it's often done with the top hand not crossing the hull's center line. With one blade on each side of the kayak, that allows for a quick brace on the outside of the turn, especially in dynamic water. A blade on each side also allows for quicker (generally) transition to a stroke on that outer side - forward, sweep, draw, etc. The idea with the bow rudder is that we get the ability to change direction with minimal loss of momentum and don't give up support or the ability to quickly transition. I'll note that using a Greenland paddle, I can move the blade over my shoulder and back much quicker than with a larger Euro one. I'll use the bow rudder in open water, more dynamic water, and where I need a quick turn or as a corrective stroke to compensate for wind and waves affecting tracking. The crossbow I tend to use around rocks and obstacles as the entire blade on close to the water on the same side of the kayak makes it quicker to transition to a stern pry or draw, a side draw, a bow draw, or even a reverse sweep. This gives me greater, more efficient control over the kayak as I can control bow or stern movement without much change in blade position in tight spaces. Yes, both are interchangeable and I don't think one is better overall, but one is usually more effective in a given situation. This is a good discussion - on what we learn first, trust more is what we tend to use. I try to shift this to learning what to use based on need/conditions and getting paddlers to equally trust each of these.

@KayakHipster

Жыл бұрын

This is a fantastic take. I want to pin it for others to see for sure! Thank you.

@robertnissenbaum

Жыл бұрын

@@KayakHipster thanks. Hopefully we'll cross paths on the water at some point. It would be a pleasure to paddle with you.

@KayakHipster

Жыл бұрын

Likewise! Thank you for always chiming in with great viewpoints to further every discussion. That’s what I love most about all of this. Everyone comes to paddling with different goals, expectations, skills. It’s great to discuss so we can all continue pushing and developing our skills.

I have watched this video several times now - just wanted to thank you again - I've been practicing both strokes and your discussion is really helpful!

Luke, great post as always. From my own perspective, I originally came to active water paddling (waaay back when) through OC1 whitewater, so the cross-bow feels the most natural to me. Just because of muscle memory, I find it easier to bring my blade across the boat than to bring it over my head. I also agree that I feel that I have a stronger hold on the blade to keep it from pulling away from the boat (the over-the-shoulder bow rudder requires a lot of strength to keep the blade in). Also with the cross-bow, I can maintain a firm grip on the shaft with both hands, whereas with the bow rudder I feel like my grip with the off-side hand (on my shoulder) feels very tentative. To @Robert's excellent point about transitioning to other strokes: although you don't have to take your blade out of the water to transition to a stern stroke, you do have to get your head out of the way. With the cross-bow, you just reverse the angle of the shaft to switch blades, and adjust your body rotation accordingly, which *to me* feels more natural. I love that you're inviting these kinds of discussions. Too many instructors say THIS is the right way to do it and down play the student's past experience, body dynamics, etc. Keep up the good work! (And come back to visit NY/CT some time.) Jonathan

Great post! I’m a novice and taught myself the cross bow rudder. It feels comfortable and natural and I love zooming up on rocks and doing the cross bow rudder at the last moment, then taking my stroke. I’ll try to practice the bow rudder this season, but it feels less natural.

I came to the same conclusion, the cross bow is easier to keep tucked in...... However with the British bow rudder, I keep my elbow tucked in and the blade more around my knee. Good vid. Want to go paddle now.

I'm quite the opposite. Out of these two, the first I learnt was cross-bow rudder. I have a strong and aggressive rotation and the cross-bow rudder might have come in more naturally. As of writing this comment, I'm still learning the bow rudder and it's still a bit difficult for me. 😅 Once both are nailed, I want to learn how to do a hanging draw too. 🙃 Overall, I'm a self-learner. I don't take any classes. I just watch a lot of various content and then take it to the water.

One issue of practicing strokes for dynamic water in a lake is that you slow down too fast. I found that if someone is towing you, you can get a feel for little things like, what happens it the blade isn't in far enough. What does it feel like as you open the blade angle. It let's the paddler get a lot of expierance in a short time. Then they can make big turns without being towed.

Good topic Luke! The Cross-bow is also great for blending into a reverse sweep on the same side, when your goal is a slowing and pivoting turn with a significant change of direction. As you exit from the cross-bow your other blade is hovering right above the entry point for a reverse sweep so it's a fast and seamless transition compared to having to reach back from a regular bow rudder. For the regular bow rudder, I prefer my top hand to be directly in front of my forehead rather than over the shoulder as no matter which edge I initiate with, in dynamic water I'll quite often end up banking the turn to an inside edge and with further edging or leaning, I will end up in high brace type position. By keeping my top hand in front of my forehead to start the rudder, the transition to lower my top hand is easier, and in a smoother motion with less strain on my shoulder. In short, I find it gives me a smoother move to whatever the next stroke or move may be.

@KayakHipster

Жыл бұрын

Interesting, I’ll be trying that out next time I’m out. Thank you again for an awesome addition to the conversation. 👌👍

That ability to not have to fight the pull using the cross bow is why I prefer it. I was one of those people in the last video who said I prefer the cross bow. Great video. Thanks!

@KayakHipster

Жыл бұрын

Yes! Thank you for sharing that opinion, I’ve had similar notes come in as well and it was great to hear all the different viewpoints on it. 👌👌

i use the bow rudder because i can link it to forwardstroke, swipestoke, high and low suportstroke and bow draw stroke.

I believe that greenland paddles are narrow because they made them from drftwood and carved them. Try making a modern paddle with a piece of wood and a carving tool.

In Quiet waters (e.g calm narrow marsh channel) where it is not necessary to brace your arms, you don't need to cross over, just do a high angle attack with you paddle angled out enough to get the turn you want. No cross over necessary! Also I recommend when showing any paddle movements show it from behind as well for those of us where it bests make sense if we see it in "our orientation".

I noticed the cross bow also twists the torso. That move in a building wave or riptide can transfer enormous pressure on shoulder to hip muscles. I have spent many visits to chiropractors due to that twisted torso action.

Suuuuuper useful. Muchas gracias!!

Thanks, great video

I didn't know that cross bow rudder exists. Thanks.

I noticed when you do the bow rudder, your chest may be more contracted by your left arm (as you were demonstrating) as it crosses up and over. With the cross bow rudder you remain in the box stance with an open chest. Do yo think this allow for more unconstricted torso roatation? I've been canoe paddling for 40 some years (solo) and early on got a freestyle boat and learned the moves directly from the boat builder. We practiced in a group of 4-6 almost once weekly for 2 years. I incorporated all those same moves in my wilderness paddling. Now I'm trying to extend my repertoire into kayaking, and am finding all the same principle apply.

Interesting point. As still a beginner, I do not feel safe yet with the cross bow rudder (I feel unbalanced). But I will reconsider my position further to your remark that pulling on the paddle might make me feel more balanced actually.

@robertnissenbaum

Жыл бұрын

It took me a while! Having all of the paddle on one side and edging away...with no support option...felt sketchy. He is spot on that drawing the blade to the kayak is a huge help. It brings your shoulders to the blade shifting your center of gravity and provides that feeling of support. More speed also helps.

@KayakHipster

Жыл бұрын

And not being afraid to fall in as you’re learning is key. Nothing wrong with feeling it out to get comfortable. 👌

If you started as a canoeist, you would be doing cross bow. Cross bow rudder is more natural, easier. Bow rudder is very awkward and weak because of the wrist orientation. If you do a bow rudder with a canoe paddle, your wrist is better positioned.

What's the brand of your Greenland paddle?

@billmcgreevy5704

Жыл бұрын

My wife and I are both using a Greenland paddle we got approximately 11 years ago from Thomas boats and paddles Made from cedar and they both have black oak edges and tips. These paddles have been our go to paddles since we ordered them from Thomas.

Bow rudder is a poor stroke either way, in my opinion. Read Complete Wilderness Paddler for their take on bow rudder. It is used because we want to use our forward momentum, but a bow rudder kills forward momentum anyway. Kills it right quick.

@tomfink5009

Жыл бұрын

The more you open the blade angle the more you kill your momentum. Solution: open the angle just enough for the turn you want.