For God's sake Lee, no warranty on race car engines. If the engine is for a race car or a track car all bets are off. Otherwise you will be doing their development work for them for free. Machining and building things up is fine but if they take it out on a track and blow it up during the "tune" it's their problem. Your machining is not going to cause detonation or melted pistons. That is their doing.

@GB-vn1tf

Жыл бұрын

Exactly.

@chiefrocka8604

Жыл бұрын

I know a rally engine builder who will not build you a engine if he doesn’t know who you are and what ya like He will not build a car or engine if you’re a car breaker with no mechanical sympathy That’s what the pros do or yoh gotta ask before hand a few questions. When the customers chatting 💩 about the engine you ask a few leading questions, do you want it built ready to go or do yo7 want it running in, is it for track or rally use as there’s different bearings we would recommend and then when idiot says it’s a drift monsta you say yeah great ,..l NO WARRANTY MUTHAF****

@ralphmillais5237

Жыл бұрын

Another engine killed by a dyno mapping muppet. Seen loads.

@nigspeed

Жыл бұрын

Agreed . Unless machining, building, tuning and running in is all done in-house .

@ralphmillais5237

Жыл бұрын

@@lesley1174 That is a possibility. However, I have seen a lot of detonation damage over the years, although I am not an engine builder myself I was connected to the motor trade for 30 years and know several engine guys, and this is consistent with that. I have also noticed that since everything went to maps and especially turbos, there are an awful lot of dyno guys and mapping "experts" getting it badly wrong, and I have seen the consequences more times than I remember, so maybe I am coloured in my judgement!

If a vehicle has been tuned to death and is running rich/lean, that's hardly the fault of the engine builder.

@Chris-hw4mq

Жыл бұрын

People excuse too much these POS german cars.

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

@@Chris-hw4mq POS? It was running fine for over 20 years until those numb-nuts messed up the tolerances.

@dadyo63

Жыл бұрын

Maybe,in the same sentence he admits they mixed up the conrod caps on the 1600,hmmm

@marcinp1569

Жыл бұрын

@Dave Stennett how do ypu match injector spray pattern to non direct injection engine? I would say that spray pattern has to be matched to intake runners where injector is spraying. Otherwise it might be spraying fuel onto runner wall.

@marcinp1569

Жыл бұрын

@Dave Stennett agree. I was just refering to the engine in question which is s54b32 and that does not have direct injection. Surely injectors shiuld be changed when inreasing power to not exceed 70-80% DC.

Did i hear right? that the BMW engine ran ok, then went to be mapped, and and the next day was thrashed around a track? no running in, doesnt bode well for a claim against you great guys, you did a good job,

@mranderson3927

Жыл бұрын

I was wondering about the break in also, but detonation is a tune issue on a new build

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

No, you didn't quite hear it. First it was built, then when they were at it they messed up and didn't check oil squirter tolerances, after they got mangled up and rods weren't cooled off properly under load, they expanded and pistons contacted the head. It doesn't help that they skimmed the block and the head also making less room to spare. They tried to know better than the original engineers 20 years ago and failed miserably. Now it's gonna be hunt down the customer's fault all over.

@bob1947essex

Жыл бұрын

@@FrozenHaxor Rubbish. Pistons 'expanding', never heard of it, and if they did, they'd never hit the head.

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

@@bob1947essex Who mentioned pistons expanding? Certainly not me.

@cedriclynch

Жыл бұрын

@@bob1947essex That damage looks like a seizure of the piston in the cylinder, caused by insufficient clearance or by overheating (which causes insufficient clearance through expansion of the aluminium alloy piston by more than the iron or steel cylinder) or by lack of lubrication. A seizure can also be caused by running the engine hard after new parts are fitted without following a suitable running-in procedure. It probably is not possible to properly run-in a high-performance car or motorcycle engine on public roads.

The "Tuner" has turned the knock limitations up/off and his ignition map will be ramped way up, possibly the rev limiter raised also when the speed limiter is mapped out. Not your problem Lee. Keep the great content coming!

@mikehunte2087

Жыл бұрын

Agree then goes bingo bango and has a cylinder Block to make a nice table

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

The Tuner has not mangled up the oil squirters my friend. This is another clear example of a Barum disaster.

@razor1uk610

Жыл бұрын

@@battlebbot WW2 type heavy milling/lathe machinery are not bad, in fact, they can be just accurate as modern CNC machinery, sometimes they can hold a tighter variance of tolerances on produced parts during their working operations.

I once had an engine machined and assembled by a machine shop. A month or so later the engine bottom end blew up at the track. I never even thought to blame the shop. I took the engine apart myself. Inspected for the root cause. When I found the problem it wasn't machine work, assembly, or any sort decisions made by the machine shop. I moved on with life because that is how it goes with racing. I feel like some people are looking for someone to blame for everything, including when their toys break. I hope you are able to run a profitable business despite the setbacks.

@cutrockr-diecastracing2773

Жыл бұрын

Can relate to that, that is how it goes with racing, which is all about pushing it to the limits, and sometimes beyond. Cheers, Marc D

@MsArchitectschannel

10 ай бұрын

I had 2 rebuilt mx5 engines drop a big end on the motorway cruising at 3500rpm with almost no throttle/power, sometimes you can blame the shop...

Should rename your site “The Daily Blow Up”

Youv got the cleanest hands of any mechanic and engineer lv ever seen

@jamesplotkin4674

Жыл бұрын

Gloves.

@gavinwanderer

Жыл бұрын

Decent hand cleaner not cheap kerosene based rubbish

Every one of those BMW pistons has been hitting the head!!

@whizzo94

Жыл бұрын

I agree. To my eyes, there is a very well defined line on the squish parts of the pistons. I don't think you would get a line like that if the piston was damaged by detonation?

@richmacer2108

Жыл бұрын

@@whizzo94 There *is* detonation, but that's not the same as the piston/head clash. So could be an extreme over rev (probably on a down change mishap,) but more likely not enough clearance. It's all pretty nasty.

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

Because they don't bother to actually measure up the clearances during assembly, they just slap it together and toss it out the door. Rods expanded and here you go.

@GARDENER42

Жыл бұрын

@@FrozenHaxor And you know this how exactly?🙄

@howarddavies136

Жыл бұрын

@FrozenHaxor did they skim the block or head? If I recall correctly, BMW advise against skimming because the clearance is already so tight, so would a skim cause it?

You can see all of the pistons have been kissing the head for starters, detonation is evidenced in the valve pockets and burn down into the top ring groove, but primary issue is the pistons hitting the head, which is where the other issues will stem from.

@csutakgergo5279

Жыл бұрын

like the side of the piston melting, right? Thats caused by the piston hitting the head...

@mickymondo7463

Жыл бұрын

@@csutakgergo5279 No obviously the side of the piston will not hit the head, but the snapped oil jet will cause overheating and the piston looks like a typical overheating partial seizure damage. The pistons aren't going to rock enough to hit the head in a correctly sized bore and they all appear to be hitting the head square, I've had MC pistons detonate, burn through in the same area into the ring grooves and cause similar damage to the piston skirts, though not from hitting the head, just crap fuel and advanced ignition.

It's funny how these bampot tuners and owners never seem to question why they're somehow so much cleverer than the engineers who had multi-million R&D budgets but only managed to make much more modest power output with any sort of longevity. I'm almost impressed at the total lack of self doubt. Imagine how much simpler life could be if one never wondered what e.g. BMW M-Division knew that you don't.

@foamdataservices

Жыл бұрын

“I raised the Rev limit and added pops n bangs, now it’s dead, it must be the engine..”

@paulkeith9680

Жыл бұрын

I suspect m division would have tried and failed a few times before they got it anywhere near right. And that's with a few development engines to mess around with

@foamdataservices

Жыл бұрын

@@battlebbot “For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all parties to leave the past to history, especially as I propose to write that history myself.”

@mikehunte2087

Жыл бұрын

@@foamdataservices top class comment these muppets think the exhaust backfiring is what they strive for on the chav cruise circuit 🍄

@miceinoz1181

Жыл бұрын

Hear Hear!

you gotta love that engineer 😁, he saves you from so much speculation and puts it all on paper

I don’t know most of what your talking about but I really enjoy watching your videos.

So much knowledge. Cool content 👌 like the relaxed approach.

I used to put Yoshimura long conrod set , back in the day on a GSXR 750 superbike . Great to see it still being done . Cheers

Was in collision side of biz for 3 decades. Turned a wrench on trucks. Went electric at age 67 would never go back! Good luck on the engine

Something to think about with those hi-performance builds; CR is something we all gravitate to. However, quench area has s equally important to consider.

Hello Lee, l think the BMW engine issue is definitely down to a muppet, mapping on the dyno as people are indicating... The piston cooling oil jet position issue is unfortunately down to the engine builder, & those Arrow rods are definitely larger in section than the stock rods, so clearances will be tighter & need modifying. Pre-ignition & detonation are two completely different scenarios (have a Google)...Great vlog though👍

One of my favourite engines the E36 engine, Tony Knight here in Australia is very good at building BMW engines, probably one of the best in the world.

At our engine shop we run each engine break in for customer doing this since 1930s It has cut down come backs .. because people aren't patient enough to properly break in A engine great video thanks for posting 👍

@keidicko

Жыл бұрын

So please tell us how you do this with a race car ? Or a 1000hp front wheel drive hot hatch for drag racing ?

@11:01 I've seen similarities on a nitrous bike that ran out of injector which leaned it out on spray making crazy inconsistent looking burns and melted both 2&3! It was also a fresh build and its one of those problems that you make sure you don't do twice! The tuner should of seen the AFR was off before melting this motor down on the dyno!

How did the head even get laid on with the aftermarket rods touching the oil squirters? Surely a pre cautionary spin over by hand would reveal unacceptable resistance before the 3rd or 4th big end cap was finger tight.... At least there aren't any holes in the side.

When we built racing or track motorcycles engine we always put on invoice that there was no warranty. We always told the customer before any work was started and they agreed to it. Surprising how many never noticed the red line on rev counter

We have built many competition motors for vintage race classes. We endorse the "white line" warranty. We cannot control what happens to the motor once it leaves the facility. We work with classic and vintage carbureted motors. We have a vetted and trusted Dyno facility to break in and tune our product as a post build recommendation. Some clients have refused that service. That decision can possibly be an expensive oversight. I applaud the decision on the pre-crossflow. Wishing the entire crew a Deluxe week!

Mapping issue all day! I had my old e46 m3 mapped and it did a healthy 356, 380 is at the limit with rods pistons and cams like shricks

New to this great channel. You cannot offer any guarantee on engines that are in any way modified. Please get a contract with customers otherwise the time / hassle / cost is a total killer. Obvioulsy you have your professional indemnity insurance to cover your end but otherwise the customer takes all risk on any non-stock engine which appears to be most of your work.

The engine with the melted piston, if it is down to the fuel mix or ignition then that is a mechanic/tuner problem not an engine builder one. But, I am not a mechanic or an engineer. I do however find your videos very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to film some of your day. 👍

Happy Monday's Barum Engines. I keep calling you a circus, Barnum, in shares. Whoopsies! 😁😁😁👍

I’ve built more s54s than I care to remember, looks like someone bent the jets , hence the mess , overheated pistons , I mean fgs look at the state of the skirts , those rods need to snap in half before they catch CORRECTLY lined oil jets

Take a new built engine, go on a dynamic and rant, and map it for Max Bhp possible with no consideration for anything but max power. Then, take it to a track. What could possibly go wrong.

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

That's why upgraded and not OEM parts were used.

@mikehunte2087

Жыл бұрын

Agree fubar simples 🤪

Well having spent a lot of my 30+ year career doing failure analysis on all types of engines i can say with some authority that you have been given the first 6 pages of a 100 page book. Without the whole engine you and the engineer are just guessing what caused the failure.

100% it’s been mapped badly, we’ve had these in our workshop numerous times, they spend a fortune on a high performance car and think some geek with a laptop knows more then a manufacturer with billions of pounds worth of research behind them!

Most tuners start rich for safety, but most dynos will pick that up quick and and can be adjusted quick, however too lean and you will burn up pistons fast, and think about an oil change after a good day on the dyno as well.

@Mr-ue2ul

Жыл бұрын

Used to race 2stroke karts. Melted so many from running lean. Really looking like tuner issue. Bad tune, race track, ouch

Would be nice to see some of the engines fitted in the vehicles. Just an idea !

@chiefrocka8604

Жыл бұрын

There’s a racing blue Sierra coz on eBay right now with a Barum engine and the invoices are in the pics

100% a tuning issue, pistons don’t melt running rich they melt running lean. That will be why they “squeezed more power out of it! Lean is mean!

@wrx2hot4u

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, your not going to get detonation from running rich. More like it will wash the bores.

The variation between the pistons do definitely look like there have been different mixture levels on each cylinder. In my opinion it's worth it to service the injectors and make sure they are balanced so that you get some cylinders rich and some lean. But I wouldn't rule out that the octane level was too low too, so it could be a combination issue. In any case as I see it it's worth to actually inspect the spark plugs as well a few times when you run a freshly built engine since if one is off then you have a problem with that cylinder. It could be an injector or it can be a valve clearance if that engine just have been broken in and not loaded hard. Unbalanced injectors are also putting more strain on the catalytic converter in case you still have it on.

@pdee886

10 ай бұрын

Agreed. Should've gotten a flow matched set. No reason to risk running out of fuel for starters with the OEM ones.

I agree with most here ignition/fueling, nothing to do with your build 👍

Definitely a tuning issue on the Bimmer. Not a fan of H style rods. Check out Oliver Rods. Parabolic I beam style rods, plus you can get them drilled to oil the piston pin and not use squirters.

08:25- them seagulls from Barnstaple harbour again! 🙂

The tuner did not use the knock sensors to detune the engine once knock has been detected. Along with over fueling whilst the piston is going up on high revs forcing the piston up into a per-ignited over fueld mixture is not good for the pistons. In theory that will cause the weak parts of the piston to fail. The only way to see what it was doing is to check the ECU logs.

Pre-ignition and detonation are two distinctly different things. Pre-ignition is a hot spot igniting the fuel early, but you still have an even burn. Since it is ignited early, you get the same effect as overly advanced timing, with the flame pushing down on the piston, causing excessive cylinder pressures before it reaches TDC, loss of power due to the fuel being mostly burned early in the cycle and it can cause "ping". Detonation, on the other hand, is just like it sounds. The fuel mixture explodes uncontrollably, slamming the top of the piston and putting extreme shocks on the piston, rod, bearing and crank. With detonation, you can have collapsed piston heads, collapsed ring lands with jammed rings, stuck pins, bearing spread collapsed (the bearings fall out of the rods when the cap is removed), bent rods, broken or collapsed skirts, out-of-round big ends, damaged thrust bearings and/or crank damage. Even though the pistons aren't showing the usual grey or white of lean burn, the fact the pistons appear to have hit the head and one piston has the skirt destroyed, would make me think of a lean condition overheating the pistons and causing excessive expansion. Lean can burn the pistons, as you showed and can be a cause of detonation. I have seen a Dodge 318 with the centre punched out of a piston head due to a lean mixture and have seen all of the damage you show from the same. Even overheating the engine can cause all of that damage. I had one friend who blew up 5 very expensive engines due to overheating. The piston skirts looked a lot like the one you show and even had carbonized oil embedded in the skirts. There was burn damage on some piston heads and the tops were pulled off of some. I told him he had a heating issue, but his "expert" racing mechanic blamed the engine builders for fitting the pistons too tight. (4 different engine builders and one engine I had built for him that had never gone over 180F in 2 years of racing in another car) Turned out the car's cooling system was set up for a V6, which runs a different hose hookup from the V8; the block wasn't getting any water flow. His mechanic had no idea and refused to listen.

@lelandlewis7207

Жыл бұрын

Just thought I'd add; with that kind of compression, I'd be spending some time rounding all of those sharp edges on the pistons and giving the crowns a bit of a polish, as well as any other sharp spots in the chambers, including the edge at the head face.

Did you know... Very early ADO16 Austin Morris 1300 used Cooper S bullet proof conrods, but with basic small big end crank size, not a 1275 super special EN40B crank. Got a crank here, basic 1300 early. Rocking horse etc..

Without having injectors services and fuel system gone through its hard to say what the cause of the detonation could be. Also thinking on if he got most of the way through a track day and also drove drove there is there the possibility fuel level in the tank was getting low and encountering fuel starvation to the point of loss of fuel pressure. Especially after a day of working up confidence and working the car harder and harder may have reached the limits of the stock tank if it's got it and the fuel level it had at the time. Being so impressed with the power figure shows it was probably safe on the limit but with no buffer zone for any issues arising.

Looks like pistons have been in touch with the head.

@spurs079

Жыл бұрын

What would cause that ?

@petervw56

Жыл бұрын

@@spurs079 pistons to tall, block could be skimmed to much, to thin head gasket etc etc. It’s hard to see it could be pre detonation to.

@johncrowley5612

Жыл бұрын

@@spurs079 Big end bearing failure.

@spurs079

Жыл бұрын

@@petervw56 yes true, however wouldn’t that be something that would be apparent once the engine has reached running temperature

@spurs079

Жыл бұрын

@@johncrowley5612 it’s an understandable theory. However if so, was it a build issue or a pedal to the metal issue. The fact of the matter is the truth lyes with Lee. These scenarios can get so complex especially if no one wants to take responsibility

Ouch that gotta hurt 😞 after doing all that work

That damage to the BMW pistons is detonation in the squish band area of the piston. Probably to much advance, or low octane fuel. If it was plug too soft you'd probably get pre-ignition as the engine glow plugged. But expecting a warranty on an engine tuned to within an inch of it's life is lala land!

That pushrod Lotus engine is similar to a Volvo B18, but I see that it's "mirrored" with the camshaft on the other side.

How do you do a comprehensive engine rebuild like this and not include injectors . Lee, I think you need what i would call a simple disclaimer form stating the process required to finish the rebuild , injectors plugs, wires, retorquing if required incl book specs used , radiator service , thermostat and waterpump, detailed oil pump measurement with factory specs . You are very professional in what you do and its not unreasonable to expect the assembler to be the same . This document would go a long way with the actual end user and especially in court . The list above is really just a thought starter, but by requiring factory spec detailed on the assemblers customer invoice will show that at least he has opened a book . An interesting saying :: 50 years ago when i started with a Triumph Dealership it was said that if you were walking around with a shop manual you didn't know what you were doing , Today if you AREN'T walking around with a shop manual to fix todays cars you don't know what your doing.

I agree 100%

Short rods put force into the crank earlier in the stroke than long rods better efficiency and torque. Trade off is more stress at high revs.

Seriously you have so many fails, I'd be asking what am doing wrong.🤣

Yes, det. - too lean, too advanced (ignition), running too hot, silly high compression ratio, or plugs that are too hot. These are the most likely causes of det. whether that be through poor mapping, sub par injector performance, wrong plugs for the application, etc. I've never seen det. caused by running too rich because the excess fuel cools the combustion chamber; indeed, on W.O.T. this is often used as a strategy to keep det. at bay. A weak mixture slows the combustion process down and actually leads to higher combustion chamber temperatures because the heat of combustion is not being turned efficiently into kinetic energy.

@sharky1999uk1

Жыл бұрын

ay in karting everyone stuck there hand over the carb to flood an cool the engine at the end of the straight

That's a clear pre-det issue. Even before you stated it, I could see there was flow consistency issues of the jets. Also looks to be the map was either rich then leaned out up top, or they ran out of fuel pump. I'd check the data logs. My bet is on both not flowing the jets, also running out of fuel flow up high if the maps look good. Running a track day for hours is a parsect away from short pulls on a dyno. I'm purposely leaving out the obvious low octane issues as who would go on a track day w shite fuel /s Also, that's a lot of power for that engine... nuf said. I'd give a suggestion if I may regarding these warranty claims: state clearly, in writing, that if there comes to be a warranty issue, the engine must be delivered whole, intact, unmolested, otherwise all warranties are null and void. If the engine is used in anger (race track etc), well, I don't know of any builder who would stand behind an unknown car builder or tuner.

@steen8156

Жыл бұрын

I forgot to say that a good look at the big end bearing and the rings/lands will also show signs of pre-det. Ask the guy for the logs and check the stoic. If the maps look good, my money is hv flow. Pumps, small dia lines, jets, are all often overlooked and have cooked more engines. You can build the best engine, yet it takes the car builder and tuner to let it survive.

Left right up down piston horizontal balancing help, not just their basic weight and removal from anywhere? 10:30

Excellent.

Surprised the the tuner didn’t hear that on his detonation microphone that’s if he/or she 😉 had one attached to the engine when it was tuned

@recoilrob324

Жыл бұрын

It's possible the engine wasn't detonating when it was being tuned. Making it 3/4 of the way through a track day can often mean 20+ minutes of being run flat out...three or four times before it scorched the pistons. We've seen problems with Shelby GT350's where people were told they're 'track ready' then go and beat them unmercifully for a few hours...including how many over-revs....and then wonder why the engine failed. I'd want to see the data log in this engine and how hot it got? Pushing a tune on the dyno is NOT the same as pushing it for an extended track session where it gets much, much hotter...both coolant and oil. If you want something to be durable enough for extended track time you have to be a little conservative with the tune...seems pretty simple but so many people want that big 'Bragging Number' when on the dyno.

@MATTYALIPR1

Жыл бұрын

@@recoilrob324 very true sir however all depends how advanced the ecu is to data log, plus for all the pistons to do that is rather odd,

11:30 Pre ignition is not detonation. Pre ignition would show in the center of the piston and detonation on the edges. Probably an octane or timing issue and possibly mixture.

Pushing for max power has this kind of risk. In the tuners defense they may not have had any detonation during the Dyno tuning. It is a controlled environment not near as harsh as a track. Those pistons have a lot of hot spots that will promote detonation and I think it's important that the tuner knows and understands exactly what he is working with.

I'm no engineer, but what I see, the design of those pistons look like a nightmare waiting to happen

REF the E46 M3 engine, A shit, 380 BHP!! map caused this problem, The fuelling is all over the place Lee. Tell the customer politely to do one!

Very interesting, must be a nightmare with these completed engines coming back to haunt you, out of your workshop into a motor, rolling road, track day, closely followed by the lot disemboweled back on your bench, then the autopsy and questions concerning

I just cant see how an oil squirter could hit anything without major damage before hand, the oil squirters are there to cool the pistons and without that piston cooling things heat up/melt, sorry but if you put the motor together in a way where the oil squirters could hit either the pistons or rods then that is an issue

I would strongly advise that the injectors are tested for both flow rate and spray pattern. I'm not saying that the problem lies with the injectors, however any high performance engine like this needs to be running a fully serviced and ideally flow matched set of injectors, especially if the engine is being tuned for track days or racing etc

@1magnit

Жыл бұрын

That's part of the tune if you know what you're doing.

@EAFXtrader

Жыл бұрын

@@1magnit how many actually do that though?

@1magnit

Жыл бұрын

Before that though you'd check the plugs , make sure they're all the same colour. But you can pretty much tell from the combustion chambers.

I just stopped in for the bickering.

Has it only been detonating on the cylinders with the broken oil jets? Maybe the oil jets broke first and then the pistons have overheated causing the detonation?

M3: if the pistons are all different colours and the spark plugs are too, I would tend to suspect that the injectors are all in need of matching and cleaning. After the dyno tuning it would have been good to see the condition of the plugs. I bet they would have provided info which would have saved him blowing the engine on the track

Lee, do the race engine clients send you the ignition map and dyno results from the last tuning run?

Did they do a plug chop at the track and inspect the plugs? Did they send the plugs for inspection? Better question did they inspect the plugs on dyno? Did the top ring ends touch or is there any galling in the ring land? This will definitely confirm detonating. Those pistons imo don’t look very appropriate for circuit racing, looks to be zero softening on the crown. That would make the tuning window very narrow if really pushing it.

I’ve only just started watching this channel, and ll I’ve seen is you guys fixing stuff that you’ve worked on that has now broken. what am I missing?

Hi, there is only so much one can get out of an engine. My opinion isthis has over reached its limit. Some pistons over fuelled, some lean. Could be fuel problems and injectors as well as a question of try to get more power than the engine is designed for. What do you reckon.?

Fuelling issues for what ever reason 👍

check the octane rating of the fuel that the bmw owner was using as hes modified and tuned it, if the octane rating isnt high enough it will pre ignite especially when hes on the track and it has load on the engine as temps go up that would explain all that brown burn/soot on the pistons. tesco do 99ron fuel but i think a lot of the others filling stations are only arount 97-98 ron for super unleaded, if its too low it will pre ignite with compression rather than the spark plug igniting it (like a diesel engine runs) thus causing damage, .the ecu can compensate/adjust but if the tuning shop is reprogramming the fuel / air mix then the ecu wont compensate/adjust as there changing the factory parameters/stoichiometric value.they have to know exactly what there doing or damage will occur. best answer is to take it to one tuning shop and get it set up then go to another tuning shop and get them to double check it. probably best off running around 100-105 ron fuel especially with it been tuned and raced round tracks if they have used to low ron rating fuel and damaged is caused then it can't be the engine builders fault owner/operator error.👍

@sampsonsunny6298

Жыл бұрын

Good reply mate. But I'm suspicious of the build quality from this bloke. He's got the gift of the gab, that's how he owns Lamborghini's and lotus. The equipment in the shop are ancient, no modern machines. Probably get away with average factory spec rebuild, but unable to put together race engine with any succes to longevity. The give away is broken oil cooler nozzles rubbing against rods. If he can't dyno test minimum to prove a basic build that's modified he shouldn't build the engine on the fly. The customer gets for what he pays. Knock sensors are standard on factory ecus, think about it, pistons overheated, caused by broken piston oil cooler nozzles being broken due to misalignment or bad workmanship. The pistons started to gall up in bore, overheating that much, a factory ecu wouldn't allow knocking caused by bad fuel ignition timing to get to the point of melting piston skirts. He blames pistons rocking due to detonation and causing side play of rod hitting oil nozzles and braking them, what's the side clearance of the rod to the crank web? What's the crack end play? Don't trust this shop, but love all their returns. I'm addicted to their shite they spin. Cheers from SA.

the pistons show Bad timing and fuel management problem the nonuniform burn on the tops are could make one GO CRAZY there is a injector problem i think that is it Some one tried to go Cheep and lost money on that Gamble

It Looks like you are dealing with too many people who just don't understand that getting a "Brand New" engine is the be all and end all of getting what they want. It's almost getting to the stage where you have to provide a printed sheet with each engine listing one by one all the things that need to be done to get the engine to perform normally let alone at high horse power, even down to what oil to put in it. Also sounds like there are a lot of engine builders who don't know enough either. I could take any old car to get it mapped and the technician doing it sometimes doesn't stand a chance of getting it right.

@Hydrogenblonde

Жыл бұрын

I used to laugh at Chinese instruction manuals that would say things like : Do not hit item with hammer. Do not put item in swimming pool. Do not drop item out of window of tall building. Do not leave item on railway tracks. But it seems it is now necessary to list every conceivable thing that some dimwit may do with the item they purchased otherwise they will come back later and blame you for not telling them. I sold a reconditioned engine to a fellow who made out he was a automotive genius. He made me feel it would be patronising to list to him everything that he should or should not do. This "automotive genius" then went on to mix a batch of coolant up for the engine using his local bore water, which was full of salt. Six months later he contacts me saying the motor l'd sold him was full of rust. Bad luck pal. Private sale. No warranty. No warranty on abused items. He should have asked questions, but these car know it alls never do until the shite hits the fan.

There’s a Cosworth on eBay with a Barum invoice or 3 on show in the ad Them rebuilds were cheap

Get a hold of the BMW engine mapping and data and see whats going on there, I suspect the "Tuner" sacrificed everything for power and hence the result.

I would say a combination of detonation for the side damage near the valve pocket and piston rock at top dead center that's allowing the piston to kiss the head, those exact marks front and rear of the pistons are found on tuned jap bikes when they run .065 mm piston to head clearance, and the bearings wear a touch they touch, especially when the forged piston is cold they can clout the head on a thrashed warm up, you can take a race bike apart 500 race miles later, no marks at all, take it apart at 10k and it's been kissing the head and you can rock it at top dead center thinking the piston is broken especially with pistons like JE that only have a tiny part of the lower skirt that runs the correct clearance. Aftermarket forged pistons are a nightmare, bit less hassle with Omega and Wossner seem a lot better for this.

Looks like the map is all over the place on that bmw. Too rich at some throttle position and too lean else where. Looks like the oil jets got mangled and sent some crap up the bore. Clearly not a build issue, more of a tuner issue going too mad on the quest for power.

@daledavies2334

Жыл бұрын

If the oil jet gets tagged the piston will not cool properly. The piston expands and gets tight in the bore, causing the major scoring shown. Hard to get all the bits to like rachother when this happens.

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

@@daledavies2334 Which is builder's fault, they didn't check the tolerances.

@daledavies2334

Жыл бұрын

@@FrozenHaxorWho checked deck height? Well from what I could see, only some pistons showed witness marks from kissing the head. Head gasket compressed thickness has to be taken into account for assembly. There are gaskets of different thickness that can be used. If the piston at TDC is bit below the deck surface, a thinner gasket may be used. If the piston comes above the deck surface a thicker gasket may be required. Depending on the con rod material and expected RPM red line, the piston to head clearance needs to be 0.040" to 0.035". Aluminium con rods and higher RPM require the higher clearance spec. Aluminium rods may need more clearance due to expansion with heat when used in an iron block and they stretch more at high RPM than steel rods. IMHO this is a possible final assembly issue. I do not know who did the final assembly, which is an unknown factor once it leaves the machine shop. But my main concern lies with the tune that was done on the dyno. What is not determined is when the oil squirters were bent and how. Those determined the cylinders that failed the worst. Spending the money to rebuild a potent engine for track use and not getting the fuel injectors rebuilt is not smart. A bit of dirt in a nozzle hole and the spray pattern and volume is off, which can lead to lean spots and detonation in the cylinder. A dyno run may be short enough a marginal problem will not display itself, but track time will show up any issue quickly. Going through the gears up a straight away is similar to a dyno run. Then a corner is approached and you back off. This gives a momentary cooling to pistons and exhaust valves. But remember there is mass involved in the valves and pistons. A bunch of that cooling is surface only because once you get close to the corner apex you are on part throttle to maintain momentum. Once you reach the apex you are applying throttle again as conditions allow. This puts more heat in than came out. Net effect is that the components get to an eventual equillibrium on heat. An engine assembly is like a chain, only as strong as the weakest link. Track days will find that, and anything not 100% correct will be revealed. In this instance, once the piston skirts got tight and scuffed, the clearance opened up. Is that what let the con rod kiss the oil squirter, or was the squirter bent during assembly? Could they have been installed turned a bit. There is normally not much room for the squiters to clar the crankshaft counterweights and connecting rods.

Was it using one of those lovely cone filters in the engine bay rather than an air box ? Sucking in all that lovely warm air

Contact marks with the head are very obvious (you'd see them on the head too), what were the static clearances when it was built? That melty piston looks like lack of fuel. When tuning afr and using only one wideband per manifold , individual cylinders can be slighly leaner/richer than the average reading, thats why you leave a bit of margin when tuning afr. Or use multi channel wideband-per-cylinder setup.

Always run dynamically matched fuel injectors in big builds and egts in every runner if possible individual runner lamda sensors In my opinion not enough ignition timming in high rpm’s to get complete burn and to rich Common misconception is running lean melts things to a extent that’s true but not really in n/a would be interesting to see the head the valves and the valve seats look for pitting and warping of the valve seat and also the colour of the valve

Gidday Lee,with the BMER i take it that its NA,so power is gained by the leaner mixture and as you said timing, both that add heat.If it is running temp in higher range and nothing is bedded in [the pistons looked like twostroke from burning oil] as even a day on a dyno is not going to wear out good engineering. The piston, no.4 ,cylinder might have been nipping up as that marking suggested it, although I haven't seen the barrel's.As you said not much skirt to hold rocking but also a smaller amount that will grow with heat.Its odd as the colour on the crowns is covering the possible true cause.I would assume it is a case of too much to soon and heat spots have bitten him.Should have run it in for at least 5,000ks then dyno and track it.What's the saying "they always run better just before they go".Worn motors make fast engines.There used to be a dude who raced in Australia his name was Alan Grice and at a Bathurst race mid 80's V8 Holden the network had just invented the incar camera's Dick Johnson had the main one and Alan had the second .Four laps an accident and their following a pace car and they click on to Alan's car and while their talking to him the dash is flashing with various little red warning lights.They have done 4laps of a 160lap race.Brand new everything, most were associated with heat. He did'nt finish.Thanks man have a good one.

@justonemorepan1082

Жыл бұрын

Yeah mate, we built a speedway car with an old 253 cid Holden GM motor. It is called standard saloons. Lost oil pressure because of sludge and carbon build up, in practice 1 week before the start of our season. We pulled it down, cleaned it and put it back together with a new gasket kit, same rings and bearings, and on its debut we had people say wtf. Ten cars in each heat, 4 races that night, (new cars start last or rear of field as, a gentlemans agreement) 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, the final race they put us on pole pos. We started that race with 7 cars for the final, but we started 7th and took home flag. Ran that same motor for 2 years and had some fun. We proved that worn in motor can be better.

Is the top ring trapped on the piston with the smeared skirts ? This would let hot combustion gasses scorch off the oil.

that looks more like piston to head contact than pre ignition marks

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

Precisely

I have both a 2020 BMW S1000RR M K67 & 2022 BMW M1000RR Competition K66! The pistons in my M1000rr have titanium rods and the mechanic showed me the replacement piston/rod price differences and I was shocked to see $8,000.00 just for the pistons. The motors are very similar but what makes these pistons this expensive over my other bike? Is it the materials R&D alone? I loved the videos and figured you would be more than qualified to ask such an important question. Thanks man.

cylinder pressures as a result of detonation have forced the skirts on to cylinder bores

I would also like to add to my previous comment, when we used to run our flat head engines we kept piston crown to cyl head very tight, too tight and the bloody piston would touch the head at high RPM, so you have to add in bearing clearance and possibly piston pin and con rod deflection

@FrozenHaxor

Жыл бұрын

And that is why this is another fine Barum disaster.

@bobawatsit

Жыл бұрын

@@FrozenHaxor So is that what happened in this case is it ? I do not know, just saying it happens. as I said in my 1st comment, I would like to see the cyl head and check for damage ....preignition and detonation are to totally different scenarios with different visual out comes

2 days is impressive for a Euro, it's a miracle they make it out of the dealership to begin with :D

Over mapped for for I've got the biggest balls full of HP, Ignition and or fuel problem. Would be nice to know which cylinders have had the oil jets broken on? The only time I've ever seen a piston like that has been a fuel and Ignition fault prior to failure. Has any boost been added to the fuel?

The over all combustion chamber with those pistons has to horrible. The flame front will not be swirled in those valve relief pockets. I would remove those outer protrusions, even though you will lose some squeeze.

Arrow rods always touch the s54 oil sprays we always tweeked the what are the th pistons used?

Simple answer is Lee , if the engine is being for any competition work , or track days , modified fuel system, then no warranty , try getting warranty on a rally car special gearbox and they will laugh at you , have special invoices made for these engines , with no warranty given or implied on them , once it leaves your building you have no idea how it's not , I repeat not been run in correctly , mapped and tuned to beyond its maximum , what size injectors are used , and then it's driven with a brick on the right pedal to the floor, showing off to all and sundry , until it goes bang , he must have heard the car pinking it's nuts off 😉

it looks like a pinto engine is it but is has been many years since i last handled one thanks for the video

Lateral movement is the same if the stroke is the same but rod angle is less, meaning you dont have as much side loading on the piston at power stroke. Just wanted to clear this up. 😊

@notsofresh8563

Жыл бұрын

rod angulation is the better way to describe it. For a given stroke (lateral movement) a longer rod will have less angle change thus reducing side loading.

Hi Ild say it might be wrong sparkplug heat range if car modified might need cooler running plugs to stop detonation

The BMW engine may have overheated the pistons if the oil jets got damaged but I doubt it. Looks like detonation damage, the upper ring grooves appear to be hammered. With the pre-crossflow why not use offset dowels for the cam (if needed) Burton used to carry them.

@jacquesevans1023

Жыл бұрын

I was thinking the same. If it’s running higher compression then the oil jets will be even more important. Add to that the tunner has probably advanced the ignition. Maybe the oil jets have failed first and then the pistons have overheated causing the detonation.

@g0fvt

Жыл бұрын

@@jacquesevans1023 to be honest the damage to the oil jets is an issue that probably happened as soon as the engine ran at high rpm. Although the upper part of the pistons have damage the engine does not seem to have had enough clearance around the oil jets. I understand that there are issues with warranties on tuned engines but in my opinion this engine was assembled with a problem. I may be wrong but in this individual case I think a compromise about warranty is appropriate.

Hmm 2 broken oil jets one on melted skirt piston and other possibly on other melted piston those oil feed jets cool and lubricate piston and bore ... causing detonation and failure due to hot piston(s)

BMW engine - high exhaust temperatures over fueling, I think Lee was a marine diesel fitter seen piston crowns melted caused by too much fuel and high exhaust temperature maybe didn't help by being on the rolling road and the track day trying to get too much power out of the engine

If he had it on dyno and spent the day tuning he must have the ignition timings that they tried and the data from.the dyno . The fueling map . Data = knowledge = answers .

To me it looks like probably too much timing for the fuel being used. Also appears witness marks where some pistons kissed the head a bit. What was the piston to head clearance when you finished machining? Too much timing will put a lot of heat into the piston, expanding the skirts and expanding vertically as well. Nasty bit that. Just watched a video from 350GT Garage, talking running 12:1 on pump gas. In the old leaded gas days guys were used to putting a bit more timing in because the leaded formula burned slow. Todays gas matches on octane, just rated differently, but burns quicker and cooler. That is 100% gasoline. Now if you use the ethanol enhanced crapola with 10% to possibly 15%, the carburetor metering by jetting and/or metering rods needs to be enrichened. Ethol needs about 50% more fuel to remain stoiciometric. On fuel injection the pulse width of the injectors needs to be longer or possibly bigger injectors. Running high compression on a dyno and tuning for power, when the engine is put to road use the mixture needs to be enrichened a decimal point or two and timing retarded 2° or 3°. Is this carbureted or injected? Be interesting to know what the AFR and timing were.

tuners be like "it'll beat a ferarri!" also tuners: